Committee Reports > List of Committees > Dáil > 1968 > Committee of Public Accounts > Interim and Final Reports of the Committee - Appropriation Accounts 1966 - 1967

MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA

(Minutes of Evidence)

Déardaoin, 8 Feabhra, 1968.

Thursday, 8th February, 1968.

The Committee met at 11 a.m.

Mr. E. F. Suttle (An tArd Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste) and Mr. J. Whelan, Mr. M. O’Reilly, Mr. P. S. MacGuill, Mr. J. R. Whitty (An Roinn Airgeadais) called and examined.

VOTE 42—POSTS AND TELEGRAPHS.

Mr. J. Scannell called and examined.

Chairman.—I wish, first of all, to welcome you, Mr. Scannell. This is, I believe, your first appearance before us. I hope you will enjoy many happy years in your important office.

Mr. Scannell.—Thank you very much.

464. Chairman.—Paragraph 68 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Stores

68. A test examination of the store accounts was carried out with satisfactory results.

In addition to the engineering stores shown in Appendix II as valued at £3,598,416 on 31st March, 1967, engineering stores to the value of £10,676 were held on behalf of other government departments. Stores other than engineering stores were valued at £500,734 including £193,432 in respect of stores held for other government departments.

Including works in progress on 31st March, 1967, the expenditure on manufacturing jobs in the factory during the year amounted to £35,897, expenditure on repair work (other than repairs to mechanical transport) to £116,906, and expenditure on mechanical transport repairs to £19,960.”

Have you anything to add, Mr. Suttle?

Mr. Suttle.—The paragraph is for information only. I have nothing to add.

465. Chairman.—May I ask what is the nature of the manufacturing work in the Post Office?—The Post Office factory was originally set up as a repair organisation. We had so much specialised stores that no outside undertaking would repair that we had to undertake this service ourselves. The basic operation of the factory, therefore, is repair of telephone etc. apparatus. There are, however, numbers of specialised items that are not supplied commercially; the Post Office factory manufactures these. They amount to something like 12 per cent of the total turnover. I have a three-page list of the items; some examples are: bell sets; safety belts; late fee boxes; bridging coils; corks for water bottles; earth plates; fencing material; national flags; fuse mountings; generator handles; horse rugs; keys for letter boxes; leggings; letter box indicators; pegs for switchboards; pullthrough weights for rifles; sounding rods; various types of screws; tables, complete with sorting racks; test cases; certain types of transformers; uniform equipment—badges, buckles, straps, telephone wallboards and wooden boxes for holding steel date stamps. I might emphasise again these are items we cannot be assured of getting from commercial concerns.

Deputy Briscoe.—What is the cost of the telephone directory?

Chairman.—That comes under the next Vote, the Stationery Office.

466. Paragraph 69 of the Report reads:

“Revenue

A test examination of the Accounts of postal, telegraph and telephone services was carried out with satisfactory results.

The net yield of revenue for the years 1966-67 and 1965-66 is shown in the following statement:—

£18,330,000 was paid into the Exchequer during the year leaving a balance of £2,386,260 at 31st March, 1967, as compared with £2,265,411 at the end of the previous financial year.

Sums amounting to £1,508 due for telephone services provided in prior years were written off during the year as irrecoverable.”

467. Perhaps you can reconcile the figures shown in the General Account of the Commercial Accounts* with page 14 of the Finance Accounts. There are different figures given in the General Account as compared with those given in the Finance Accounts?—In our Commercial Accounts we give the picture of the Post Office as a business undertaking. The accounts are made up just as a commercial enterprise would make them up. The Finance Accounts merely show the amount of money which we have paid over as a revenue-earning Department. If you like, we are a Jekyll and Hyde: we are a commercial concern and we are a Government Department. There are different rules of accounting for commercial transactions and for revenue transactions.

468. The Commercial Accounts represent what you actually receive and the Finance Accounts what you paid over?—the Commercial Accounts represent what we received as a commercial concern.

Mr. Suttle.—What was earned in the year as against what was actually paid to the Exchequer. The Commercial Accounts take into account moneys due to the Post Office at the end of the year. The Finance Accounts show the actual cash passed over.

469. Chairman.—Paragraph 70 of the Report reads:

“70. Post Office moneys were paid into a special deposit account in the Central Bank during the bank strike last year and a balance of £2,250,000 was retained in that account. Interest amounting to £146,715 was received and has been brought to account as an exchequer extra receipt.”

Deputy Healy.—Apparently we benefited through the bank strike last year. It is an ill wind that does not blow somebody some good.

Deputy Cluskey.—Two and a quarter million pounds.

470. Chairman.—Our banking with the Central Bank continues?—This is a question which is partly one for the Department of Finance. I can explain it this way: it is essential for the Post Office at the end of the year to have money in its tills to cash money orders, postal orders, etc. Therefore we do not pay in to the Exchequer all the money we have at the end of the year. The actual amount is determined by the Minister for Finance and if he does not take what is surplus to requirements, something should be done with the money. By arrangement with the Department of Finance we lodged it with the Central Bank. It earned interest whereas none would have been earned if it had been left in our tills. The Central Bank was the only one which the bank strike did not affect.

471. Have you gone over to the Bank of Ireland again now?—This amount remains with the Central Bank on deposit.

472. Deputy Healy.—When the Minister says he wants £6,000,000 or £7,000,000, does he take cognisance of what is there altogether? —Yes.

473. Chairman.—Would the representative of the Department of Finance like to say anything on this point?

Mr. O’Reilly (An Roinn Airgeadais).—The Post Office have retained this working balance. Having retained £2¼ million, we look at it and if we feel the amount retained is too much in the current year we may suggest that the deposit be reduced by, say, £1 million. We shall find by experience what the amount should be.

474. Deputy Healy.—I should not like to think that the Department of Finance would take so much that the Post Office could not do their work?

Mr. O’Reilly.—I do not think the Post Office would let us do that.

475. Chairman.—Paragraph 71 reads:

“Post Office Savings Bank

The accounts of the Post Office Savings Bank for the year ended 31st December, 1966, were submitted to a test examination with satisfactory results. The balance due to depositors, inclusive of interest, amounted to £130,469,307 (including £19,935,899 in respect of liability to Trustee Savings Banks) on 31st December, 1966, as compared with £129,275,275 at the close of the previous year. Interest accrued during the year on securities standing to the credit of the Post Office Savings Bank Fund amounted to £7,041,565. Of this sum £3,259,059 was applied as interest paid and credited to depositors, management expenses absorbed £385,451 and the balance, £3,397,055, was set aside towards provision against depreciation in the value of securities.”

476. Deputy Healy.—Is it considered that the various publicity drives, particularly on radio and television, are having the desired effects? Does experience prove that the various programmes requesting people to save in the Post Office have been worthwhile?

Mr. Suttle.—Of course the rate of interest was increased from 2½ per cent to 3½ per cent as from 1st January, 1967. That would have a far greater effect than the publicity. This increase in the rate of interest occurred as from 1st January, 1967, and its effects might not be felt in the accounts during the last three months of the financial year. Of course if people can get even a half per cent more on their investment elsewhere they will do that.

Deputy P. J. Burke.—That is true because anybody with any money to invest will look to see where he can get the highest rate of interest.

Deputy Healy.—It seems to me this is a matter of policy. There are advantages in Post Office savings for the small investors. They can withdraw whenever they like at short notice.

Deputy Burke.—Whereas a number of commercial undertakings at 6 per cent might require six months notice.

477. Chairman.—I notice that £3.4 million approximately was set aside towards provision against depreciation in the value of securities. Last year depreciation was much smaller than that—£2.5 million. Has the amount for depreciation been decreasing over the years?

Mr. O’Reilly (An Roinn Airgeadais).—The figure shown here represents the difference between the cost price of securities and the market value which is £2.5 million, as the Chairman mentioned. In the year 1966, while we did set £3.9 aside, there was a big depreciation in securities. Interest rate went up in 1966 and as a result the market value of securities dropped. The amount we had set aside over the years was sufficiently more than £2.5 million, an excess for depreciation, but that depreciation fund is charged all the time against any falling back or depreciation as a result of market influences.

478. Deputy Healy.—There has been an increase in value in the last twelve months surely?

Mr. O’Reilly.—Values have not changed very much. Some of the old securities have not changed very much in market value.

479. Deputy Healy.—On subjead C.— Accommodation and Building Charges—expenditure is £8,000 less than anticipated. Is that for land to be conveyed for buildings that have not been constructed, or for some buildings that have not been renovated, or is it an over-estimation?—Mr. Scannell.—There was under-spending on sites and buildings due to the non-completion of the building programme for the year, possibly due to delays with building contractors or in the completion of plans.

480. Chairman.—Under subhead F—Engineering Stores and Equipment—the expenditure was £717,000 less than the grant and the explanation given is that the payment to contractors was substantially less than anticipated, amounting to £540,000, largely because of delays arising out of shipping and other difficulties. Expenditure on stores at £106,000 and on satellite circuits at £71,000 was also less. Is there any explanation why it should hit the contractors?—These contractors are firms who instal telephone equipment and the shipping strike delayed the delivery of equipment to this country.

481. Deputy P. J. Burke.—Do mail bags come under this heading?—Mail bag contractors would be under Postal and General Stores—subhead E. The contractors I mentioned deal with telephone equipment and perhaps also telex equipment.

482. When you are looking for applications for contracts for the making of mail bags generally, do you include other countries?—The Stores Branch has a list of firms who are competent contractors.

483. This is a matter about which I am concerned. Have you any preference for Irish-made mail bags?—I could not answer specifically about mail bags but I can give a general picture of the preferences given to Irish manufacturers.

A general picture will do.—In some cases there is either a protective duty or quota that protects the Irish manufacturer. If there is neither protective duty nor a quota, there is a certain margin of preference allowed which is determined by the Government.

484. Deputy Briscoe.—Under the heading “Extra Receipts payable to Exchequer” broadcasting licence fees as shown at £1,897,073. This of course relates to the year up to 31st March, 1967, but do you anticipate that “TV Spongers” campaign will bring a very large addition to the number of licence fees in the current year?—There has been an addition. Our usual experience is that after one of these campaigns we get an immediate rise in the number of licences, both for television and radio. Then after a period, things become stabilised. Now we have to mount another campaign and licence numbers go up again.

485. It would be interesting if you have any figures?—The figures I can give relate to the last campaign in October-November, 1967. It resulted in 52,000 new television licences and 12,000 new radio licences; we estimated that about 90 per cent of these new licences were purchased because of the campaign.

486. What was this in actual income?—The extra income would be about £180,000 a year, which would be a continuing amount and the cost of the publicity and special inspection costs would be about £50,000.

487. Chairman.—Under the Appropriations in Aid, item 1—Recovery in respect of Telephone Capital Expenditure—you have realised £5.69 millions. Where does that come from?— That is a payment made to us out of the Telephone Capital Fund. From the various subheads in the Estimate—Staff, Accommodation, Stores, and so on—we pay out moneys for both telephone development and telephone maintenance. In other words, all the expenditure on the telephone service is met from the subheads and then by an accounting operation, we segregate that into so much on development of the service, laying new cables, creating new exchanges, etc., and so much on maintenance. Maintenance is a final charge on the Vote but capital expenditure is refunded to us from the Telephone Capital Fund. We subsequently repay that by means of annuities.

You get this from the Exchequer?—Yes, sir.

488. Deputy Reynolds.—On this point, if somebody is looking for a telephone there is a demand for payment of five years rental in advance but it is sometimes two years later before he gets the telephone. He is encouraged to make this payment to the Department by the people who interview him at the time. Is this normal practice?—The normal procedure is that payment is not made until the contract is signed. The contract is only signed when the officials concerned can visualise the telephone being installed within a reasonable time. By that I mean six weeks to two or three months. The only exception I know to that was in some areas in a county in the west of Ireland where there was difficulty about wayleaves. Unfortunately we got subscribers to sign contracts, accepted money from them, then went to lay the lines and found we could not get wayleaves owing to difficulties which have since been smoothed out. So far as I know all these cases have been cleared up or will be in the near future. Certainly nobody should have to pay money to the Department unless he has signed a contract. If any cases occurred otherwise, I should be very glad to be informed of them.

Deputy Reynolds.—This must be the same case that I have in mind. It was some time before the telephone was installed. It was probably an isolated case that I thought was general. I am quite happy with the explanation.

489. Deputy Treacy.—On item 5 of the Appropriations in Aid—Receipts in Respect of Services performed for the Revenue Commissioners—what is the nature of the services?— The main things we do are to sell Revenue stamps, income tax stamps, PAYE stamps, and dog licences. Also we issue money orders free of poundage where people are making payments to the Revenue Commissioners. We perform these services in post offices throughout the country and for them the Revenue Commissioners paid us an agreed sum of £65,000.

490. Deputy Reynolds.—On item 7 of the Appropriations in Aid—Sale of Engineering Stores—it is stated in the note that the difference between the estimate and what was realised was due in part to increased prices for copper and scrap and in part to clearance of arrears of accounting. What type of copper is being sold? Is it scrap copper?—Yes. Where a cable is being recovered or a manual exchange is replaced, it may happen that the old material is unfit for repair and has to be sold as scrap. Scrap copper is very valuable and is in very high demand. We invite a number of firms to tender for the scrap. In fact, we even get tenders from abroad. As regards the clearance of arrears of accounting, the procedure is that the receipts from the sales are initially credited in a suspense account and later appropriated to the proper heading. The arrears mentioned were mainly a balance of receipts received in the previous year but not actually credited to the Vote. I can assure you that the accounting position is now up to date.

491. Deputy Cluskey.—In the Classified Schedule of Losses, a misappropriation of Savings Bank deposits and so on to the extent of £5,527 by a sub-postmistress is referred to. Was that going on over a long period before it was discovered?—It was.

492. Chairman.—Have we any system of surety bonds for post offices?—Not in general, no. That point was considered by an interdepartmental Committee in 1933, and also by a more recent committee, of which the Public Accounts Committee is aware. In general the conclusion is that if you insist on surety bonds, the cost of the bonds will have to be added to the remuneration you pay. The alternative is that the State should act as its own insurer. In fact, that is the accepted general principle, except where special inspection services can be obtained by insurance. We felt we were following the general principle in not insisting on surety bonds. It may be done in certain cases but not in general.

493. Deputy Burke.—The percentage of people falling by the wayside would be small?— The percentage is very small.

In other words, taking that into consideration, it would not pay the Post Office.

Deputy Briscoe.—The premiums would cost more.

Deputy P. J. Burke.—They would, unless you were having a great number of losses.

494. Deputy Briscoe.—Following on Deputy Cluskey’s question, you have established this misappropriation was over a long period. How long was the period? Could you give us some information of the kind of checks which are made by the Post Office?—Sub post offices are visited at irregular intervals by the head postmaster of the area, or by one of the senior members of the staff, and the accounts are checked. These are a surprise check. As well, the accounts of each office are examined at headquarters by a specialist staff, some of whom have developed a “nose” for finding out something wrong. Then there are various other internal checks within the Savings Bank system itself. The most prevalent form of depredation arises usually in the rural areas where the sub-postmaster or sub-postmistress persuades a depositor to leave the Savings Bank book with him, or her, or, alternatively, the depositor asks to have it left in the post office because he does not want other members of the family to know what he has in the Savings Bank. Once the sub-postmistress has the book, there are opportunities for forgery, changing amounts, and so on, and it is very difficult for us to detect that kind of thing. It will eventually come out. There was one recent case which emerged because some depositor in New Zealand, who was sending money, became suspicious and wrote to us directly. The recent committee I spoke of made an analysis of the various cases over the years and the way in which they were detected. They were detected in all sorts of extraordinary ways. A number were detected because of depositors complaining; a number because of headquarters spotting something wrong; a number because of head postmasters becoming suspicious; some others arose in unusual and haphazard ways. We did go into the incidence of loss and it is something in the region of .002 per cent. For that reason, we feel extravagant checks would not be worthwhile. Only the other day I learned that the American Express Company, who also bear the cost of losses in traveller’s cheques, experience a loss also of .002 per cent. They are, apparently, satisfied with that.

495. Deputy Treacy.—May we take it that in every instance depositors were adequately safeguarded finally and there were no losses sustained?—Yes. We accept responsibility on the basis that so far as the depositor knows, the sub-postmaster or sub-posmistress is our accredited agent and we bear the loss.

Deputy Cluskey.—The circumstances of this particular case—one could not but have some sympathy with the defendant—would imply, if it went on over a long period, that there is not an adequate check.

496. Deputy Briscoe.—How was this actually perpetrated? Was it through savings books being left with her?—In general, yes.

497. Are there many depositors who leave their savings books in this way? If the Post Office were to discontinue allowing sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses from holding the books for depositors, would that inconvenience a very large number of people?— We have warned sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses that they are not to hold the books. That sometimes makes no difference. We advise on the cover of the Post Office Savings Bank deposit book: “Please keep this in a safe place.” We do not want to arouse suspicion and we cannot, therefore, say: “Do not leave it with the sub-post office.” But, for one reason or another depositors, possibly wanting to hide what they have from other members of the family, insist on leaving it in the sub-post office.

498. Does that not put the Post Office in a very awkward position?—It does. We did consider making an announcement that, if people left books with sub-postmasters or sub-postmistresses, we might not repay in case of loss. But we decided against that on the grounds of public confidence and the need to encourage savings.

499. Deputy Cluskey.—It is a breach of regulations for the sub-postmaster or sub-postmistress to hold the book?—It is.

500. Is disciplinary action taken against them?—If we can find out, yes, If they hold the books the inference is there is likely to be misappropriation. If I might quote an instance: a long number of years ago, there was a very big defalcation, depositors left their Savings Bank books at the sub-office and it was brought out in court that this practice was the cause of the defalcation. The new sub-postmistress was warned specifically when she was installed, that the last appointee had got into trouble because she kept the books. Within three weeks we had a stream of complaints to the Department that the new sub-postmistress was not accommodating and would not hold the books.

Deputy Reynolds.—The depositor should, I think, be encouraged in a much stronger way to hold his own book. I do not know how you could do that successfully without doing any injury to savings.

Deputy Briscoe.—I can see the difficulty.

Deputy Reynolds.—I can see the difficulty, too. Suppose the Department occasionally sent notices, or the books were called in periodically for inspection?—They are.

501. Chairman.—Under “Extra Remuneration”, I notice that over £1 million was paid in respect of overtime?—The sum is large but, on the other hand, the Post Office operates for 24 hours a day. I need not tell you we have emergencies now and again. Such as storms. Engineering staff have to go out to restore telephone communications urgently. We also have the difficulty that, with the growth of the telephone service, special skills are at a premium. You have the person who can maintain a particular kind of automatic exchange. In general terms, I agree there is an obligation on us to try to keep overtime down to an economic minimum but in a service like the Post Office you cannot regard overtime as anything other than necessary.

502. What about the recruitment of more permanent staff?—There are recruitment difficulties.

503. The position appears to be deteriorating. Last year, 4,695 people were involved in overtime and the figure has risen this year to 5,500. What is the explanation for such a big increase?—This lists only the overtime between certain limits. One of the reasons for it is that during the year in question rates of pay increased and it is possible that a number of people were receiving under the lower limit. They may not in this year have performed any greater amount of work.

Deputy P. J. Burke.—It is obvious that in an organisation like the Post Office, where it takes so long to train staff, there must be overtime. The Post Office could not carry on without it.

504. Chairman.—To return to the Commercial Accounts,* Statement Three under the heading “Balance Sheet” shows the biggest loss ever in the postal, telegraph and telephone system—£430,722. Does this indicate a possibility of an increase in charges?—I am tempted to say that is a matter for the Minister. It is true that the figure of £430,000 is the biggest loss we have had but in relation to the turnover which has increased so enormously in recent years, it is not so staggering. Our receipts are in the region of £20 million a year and a £430,000 loss on such a big figure is not so alarming. There were years when we had fairly large profits.

Deputy P. J. Burke.—Seven years out of ten?—The traditional policy of the Post Office is to break even, taking one year with another. I do not regard a loss in one year as necessarily breaching that principle.

505. Deputy Briscoe.—A lot of this, I imagine, is capital expenditure on the installation of telephones?

Mr. Suttle.—No. That is calculated separately. It is shown, but it does not go into account for assessing losses.

506. —I thought the telephone service should have shown a bigger profit than £26,859. It seems to be very small in relation to the business?—There is the point that telephone charges have remained static during the past couple of years whereas costs have gone up— for instance wages of the staff maintaining the telephone services.

The answer is to get as many telephones out as possible?—Provided they are profitable.

507. Deputy Briscoe.—What is the average life of a Post Office vehicle?—In a negative sense, we do not make major overhauls of vehicles of more than seven or eight years old.

Do they last that long?—Some of them do. They are carefully maintained. We have our own repair workshops. The main one is in the factory I mentioned earlier. We have garages also at the Central Telephone Office, at the Engineering Depot and in Cork and Limerick. Our vehicles are as carefully maintained as vehicles belonging to any other big organisation.

508. What would be the average life of, say, a 10 cwt. vehicle?—I can get you the assumed life. When we are costing we have to give the assumed life of a vehicle.

I am not interested in the assumed life?—It varies as between vehicles. For instance, a van is assumed to have a life of 10 years when we are costing. It may last only seven but it could last 12 years.

509. Chairman.—We have received the accounts of the Post Office Savings Bank and the Trustee Savings Banks.* In the Savings Bank accounts I notice deposit receipts amount to £27 million. That figure has been stationary. However, your pay out was £29 million. Is that a departure from the normal balance?—Since the rate of interest was increased and since publicity was increased, we have done better in the Savings Bank in that we are getting in more than we are paying out. One of the things that happens is that if there is a new National Loan or a new issue of Saving Certificates, people are inclined to withdraw from the Savings Bank and put the money into the other securities. At the moment, by and large, the position is quite healthy.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 18—STATIONERY OFFICE.

Mr. B. O BROLCHAIN called and examined.

510. Chairman:—Paragraph 29 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Subhead E.—Paper

29. In the course of my examination of paper stocks I noticed that considerable quantities were held by contractors on behalf of the Stationery Office and in reply to an inquiry about certain items issued to one contractor I received the following statement:

There did not appear to be a regular reconciliation between the Stationery Office records and those of contractors but I have been assured that this will be done at six-monthly intervals from 1st April, 1967. From the above table it would appear that unnecessary issues were made to the contractor during the year; I have asked for an explanation and for the value of stocks held by him at 31 March, 1967.”

511. Has Mr. Suttle anything to add to the paragraph?

Mr. Suttle.—I have since been informed that it was the contractor who asked to have these issues of paper made to him. The Accounting Officer has also told me that he does not know the value of stocks of these papers held by the contractor at 31st March, 1967.

Chairman.—Perhaps Mr. O Brolchain would give us a statement on this matter.

512. Mr. O Brolchain.—The particular contractor we are concerned with is the contractor who holds the parliamentary printing— printing order papers, Dáil debates, Acts, Bills and so on—and Iris Oifigiúil. Most of this paper relates to parliamentary printing. I have gone into the matter fully with the printer and have a letter from him. Perhaps Mr. Chairman, you would like to see his own explanation of the position.* I should first explain that this particular printer has handled parliamentary printing for 45 years, since 1923. The system we operate is that we issue paper on demand. The purpose of this is to ensure that parliamentary work is not held up for any reason attributable to us. If we first inquired whether or not the printer had sufficient paper in stock or we refused to issue paper we might interfere with parliamentary printing. In this letter you will find that the printer goes into the question fairly and fully and gives an assurance at the end that the paper has been used on our work and only on our work. It might appear to the Committee that unknown to the management the paper could be removed. That is not possible. This paper is very big. The sheets are about 2 feet to 3½ feet long and broad in proportion and they remain at that size until they reach the cutting stage. They go through the machines uncut. They are collated, folded and put into book shape, where that applies, before cutting. So the paper is difficult to remove from the premises undetected. I shall read the printer’s assurance for the Committee:

“The Company solemnly assures the Controller of the Stationery Office and other interested authorities that it has never deliberately or accidentally used Stationery Office Depot Paper Stock for any purpose other than proofing and printing Stationery Office work. The controls we operate are such that we can be certain that Stationery Office paper was never used for commercial print. The qualities of Stationery Office Depot Stock paper would be quite unsuitable for such purposes.”

513. Chairman.—There is no objection to our printing the contractor’s statement in our Report?—I have permission to use it or let you have it for publication if you wish.

514. Deputy Briscoe.—The usage for the year 1966-67 of White Printing Super Royal 27½ was 147,389 sheets?—That is the user we gave credit for. We only give credit when user is claimed in the bill. What happened is that the contractors failed to make full claim for user. They failed to claim and they now explain why they failed. Otherwise, they would remain liable to pay for the paper.

515. The stocks on 31st March 1967 of this particular size was 553,260 sheets. How many have been, on average, used over the last few years; how long would this last; would it be a year’s supply, or two year’s supply?—It varies. I have some figures. I only give thousands. The credit in 1965-66 was 477,000, in 1964-65 it was 258,000, in 1963-64 it was 281,000 and in 1962-63 it was 320,000.

516. There is hardly two years’ supply in this?—Yes—if the paper were unused in the hands of the contractor. That is the difficulty. I could not give an estimate of unused paper in the hands of the contractor. The ledger balance would not necessarily be in the hands of the contractor. Some of the paper would be coming through for credit. For example, the 553,000 sheets include 255,000 sheets of Super Royal already used for bound volume of Statutes but not processed through by us. In other words, the transaction had not reached the ledger; the user had not been credited to the contractors. It finally came to credit on 31st July that year. On 30th September another 77,000 sheets used on the next bound volume came through. You can see that these two items alone account for 332,000 sheets.

517. Deputy Cluskey.—You mentioned that the contractors stated that this paper would not be suitable for commercial purposes. Is there anything technically distinguishing about it?— Inferior quality.

518. Mr. O Brolchain.—With your permission, Mr. Chairman, I would now like to speak about another aspect of this problem. It is the question of reconciliation. Physical reconciliation is what has always been sought, and sought unsuccessfully, during the years. We have voluminous correspondence on our files but reconciliation has never been achieved. In all the 45 years it has not been found possible to achieve reconciliation.

Back in 1955 we took the printer’s own figures as our opening ledger balances, but within a short time discrepancies again began to arise and were not reconciled. I am pleased that the Comptroller and Auditor General should have mentioned the question of reconciliation. The type of reconciliation I have now introduced is not physical reconciliation, but I should like to assure the Committee that I would be happy to attempt a physical reconciliation from time to time if the Committee so wishes. I have some specimens here of the type of return I have asked from printers who hold depot stock. I have a number of copies which I would like you to have for the information of the Committee.

519. What I have in mind is a more economical way of achieving what I would hope would be the same result as would be achieved by periodic physical reconciliation. We could do it for a trial period, if the Committee so wished, and at the end of that period try for physical reconciliation. What I propose is to start with an agreed balance with each printer who holds depot stocks. All the printers who have depot stocks except one printer, whom we shall call the parliamentary printer for simplicity, have in fact agreed the depot stock at 30th September last at our figures or figures higher than ours. We would start with that agreed stock. Every time we issue paper, we issue an issue note with it to say how much paper we have issued. We would enter that figure on the left side of the sheet. Whenever we credit paper to printers we issue them what we call an amendment or credit slip or some other document telling them how much paper we have allowed them. We would enter that figure on the right hand side of the sheet. The printers would also keep a record of this kind or some other kind that could be converted into this kind of record. At the end of each six months the depot stockholders would be required to report to us the balance they had on record. If there was any question or doubt about the matter we would have the two records; we would compare them and find out where the error had crept in. Then the closing balance—the balance at 30th September— would be their admission of their paper indebtedness to us. Under the contract which we have with them, they would either have to use that paper for us and get credit, return the paper or pay us for the paper. We would then, it seems to me, be relieved of the trouble of trying to find out where the paper has gone. That is one system.

520. The system of physical stocktaking necessitated our asking the parliamentary printer, for the purpose of finding out where we stood, to make a physical check of stock. It took two of their men about a month to make a rough physical check some time ago. Even on that occasion we found discrepancies. Indeed we find discrepancies in the stocktaking in our own warehouses. We find, for example, plus and minus balances in the returns. Of course we come right in the final balance. What happens is that code numbers get mixed or misread or clerical errors of one kind or another are made. One can imagine therefore the difficulty of physical stocktaking of depot stock. The printer would have unused paper and he would also have paper going through the machines. In addition, he would have paper which was at the collating and folding stage and further he would have paper already printed, such as statutory instruments being held to be bound. That paper would have to be converted back into sheets. Allowances would have to be made for paper that we call “overs”. We allow “overs” normally at the rate of 16 overs in 500, or say 3.2 per cent. All this work would have to be done in relation to a particular point of time. Any movement of paper during stocktaking would greatly confuse the issue. In our own place, of course, we close down when stocktaking. We cannot close down the parliamentary printer; we would have to pick a period when the Dáil is not sitting. The number of actual jobs undertaken for us by this printer last year came to 2,000. Of these, over 800 were parliamentary printing. We would find ourselves in great difficulty, therefore, in checking the printer’s depot stock, but we are prepared, if you so wish, to try to get round these difficulties. It seemed to me, after considering different methods, that the method I propose to adopt is probably one which would achieve an accurate assessment of the amount of paper they owe us from time to time.

521. The parliamentary printer is the only printer tendering for these contracts. He has held them since 1923. Other printers competed in 1933 to 1943, but the present holder held the contracts against competition. Since 1943 no other printer has ever tendered for these contracts—groups 16 and 12. If we put too much paper work on the parliamentary printer, his costs will go up and if his charges go up by about one or two per cent it would be in excess of the value of the paper on charge to him at the moment, including paper that has been used. We are quite satisfied, from conversations which have been going on for a very long time—since last March when this matter came to my notice—in an effort to find a solution, that most of the paper still on charge to the printer has in fact been used on our work.

522. Another factor is that the total value of the papers named by the Comptroller and Auditor General in his list comes to something over £10,000 while the total bills over the 12 years to which the papers relate came to close on £700,000. In other words, it could be said that in the total cost of the work this is the last 3d. or so in the £. It is no harm to stress that we are satisfied that all the paper that has been used has been properly used and that the parliamentary printer’s assurances about user should be accepted.

If we were, as I said, to start putting on expensive control, we would spend more to save paper or to check that the paper is used than the paper would be worth. Before ever I took over an effort was made to reconcile our ledger balances and the printer’s stock in hands, which ended in failure. What are we to do?

523. Mr. Suttle.—From our point of view, we would not insist on a physical check so long as the contractor periodically acknowledged that he held paper on your behalf and that you agreed with the quantity he held. That is all we would require; in other words that he would acknowledge responsibility for the paper he held. Whether he had it or not would be of no consequence at all.

524. Mr. O Brolchain.—Thank you. That relieves my mind. Possibly I might have the views of the Comptroller and Auditor General as to whether the particular system I have instituted meets with his requirements. I am not asking for a snap decision on it now, but at a later stage. We can give the Comptroller and Auditor General all the further information he may wish to have in the context of the operation of this programme.

525. Deputy Molloy.—This is a matter, Mr. Chairman, on which I should like to express an opinion. I have the utmost sympathy with Mr. O Brolchain in this particular situation. I say that from my own experience in a printing works. It was not actually paper printing. It was cloth printing. It is physically impossible to keep an exact check in a printing works. The idea of a physical check is completely unworkable. You would spend far more on checking than you could possibly hope to save by determining whether there was a shortage. The approach I have heard explained here is satisfactory to me. It is a difficult job trying to keep a record.

Deputy Briscoe.—I should like to express to Mr. O Brolchain thanks for the manner in which he has explained the position to us. We have the utmost confidence that he can institute this system of six-monthly reconciliations in a satisfactory manner.

526. Deputy Briscoe.—Under section D—. Printing and Binding—could Mr. O Brolchain tell us how much of this expenditure relates to the telephone directory?—We are no longer paying for the telephone directory. It is a repayment service for the Post Office. The Post Office now meet all their own bills and our payments for printing do not go through the Vote at all. It is worked through suspense account so none of this expenditure on our Vote would relate to the printing charges of the telephone directory.

Mr. Suttle.—But you would have information as to the cost?

Mr. O Brolchain.—I would have some information as to the cost of the telephone directory in earlier years and, possibly, in this year. I have in front of me here the estimated figures and I will put them forward. Printing and paper, the estimated figure I have is £63,640.

527. Deputy Briscoe.—For how many copies?—310,000. I worked it out in an earlier year and it worked out at about ⅔d. per copy, something like that.

I notice they sell copies for 2/6d. and I wanted to find out if that is an economic price?—You could nearly divide it right away: 310,000 copies and £63,000 is 4/-.

Mr. Suttle.—From that point of view economics does not enter into it because there are surplus copies. Everybody is automatically supplied.

528. Deputy Molloy.—There is also income from advertisers and, if you want to be absolutely accurate, you would have to include the cost of distribution as well. It would take a great deal of calculation to get an exact figure?

Mr. O Brolchain.—There is a loose saying that, after you reach a certain point, the cost of printing is the cost of the paper. That is an inaccurate, rough and ready guide. When you reach that number of copies it is the paper you are mainly concerned with.

529. Deputy Andrews.—Under subhead G —Office Machinery and Other Office Supplies —have you any computers?—Yes. We supply all office machinery from computer down to typewriter. There is the Revenue computer.

What type is that?—It is a Honeywell.

530. Chairman.—Under Appropriations in Aid—Supplies and Services provided on repayment, £180,000—to whom do you give these services?—The repayment cases are the Social Welfare Social Insurance Fund; Education—An Gum, preparatory colleges, schools reference library; Local Government—the Combined Purchasing Section and the Roads Section; Agriculture—the Land Project, Agricultural schools; Defence—books for libraries, all supplies to Army schools; External Affairs —Cultural Relations; Health—Publicity; Central Fund—Elections, National Loans; Post Office Savings Bank; Posts and Telegraphs itself; Local Authorities—the register of electors; Incorporated Law Society —printing of reports. Then we occasionally supply the ESB, Radio-Telefís Éireann, Bord na Móna, Gaeltarra Éireann, Ceimicí Teoranta, Institute of Industrial Research and Standards. These are all repayment cases.

531. Deputy Briscoe.—We have the accounts of the Sale Office*. Has there been an increase in the sales of the Dáil Debates?—There has been a slight falling off. The number of subscriptions dropped from 155 to 150.

532. Deputy Andrews.—Have you any idea of the cause of the drop?—No, but you may be glad to hear that demands for the bound volumes of the Dáil Debates are increasing. For instance, the Cork City libraries order them, the Dublin daily newspapers, the Birmingham Public Library and booksellers in England take copies.

Do Dun Laoghaire Corporation supply bound volumes to subscribers to their libraries? —Not that I am aware of.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 28—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION.

Mr. S. MacGearailt called and examined.

533. Chairman.—I should like to welcome Mr. MacGearailt on his first appearance before us.

534. Deputy Andrews.—What is the significance of the amount under subhead A.4 in relation to the Commission on Higher Education?—They sat over a six-year period and there was a feeling that the work might have been wound up during the year. It went on longer than was anticipated. The figure relates to only one year.

535. Were there payments made to the Commission?—No. It was a voluntary body. The figure was in respect of staff expenses. The Commission were not paid salaries.

536. Under subhead C.1.—National Museum—Purchase of Specimens (Grant-in-Aid)— what kind of specimens are involved?—I do not think “specimens” describes them adequately. For instance, some old silver may come on the market. It may be unique, perhaps the work of one of the old Cork silversmiths. The Museum might wish to purchase it and they have a running grant-in-aid.

537. Chairman.—In respect of subhead B.1. —Expenses in connection with Membership of UNESCO and of the International Bureau of Education—how much do we give to the International Bureau of Education and what services do they give us?—The amount is £420.

538. Deputy Cluskey.—This subhead is for £16,000. Does that include attendance at conferences?—The main item in that figure is our contribution to UNESCO. It is set on a basis provided by UNESCO for the different member countries.

What is the total amount we pay?—We pay roughly £13,000 a year.

539. What benefits do we get for this sum? —We participate in all the activities of the organisation. We have made available to us the experiments carried out in the various countries. We ourselves as members participate in some of their projects, through representatives. We also can participate in student exchange organised by UNESCO. There are a thousand and one activities of UNESCO in which we can participate and from which we gain benefits.

540. Deputy Molloy.—Subhead A.5. refers to the Council of Education. What do they do? —The sum of £10 is a carry over from the time when the Council were functioning. It is a token expenditure. They actually examined the programme and curriculum of national and secondary schools and produced two reports. Their work terminated 5 or 6 years ago. I am speaking purely from memory in regard to this.

Deputy Molloy.—This work is done by a different group now.

541. Deputy Andrews.—On subhead C.3.— Archaeological Excavations (Grant-in-Aid)— where are these archaeological excavations taking place?—Mostly in High Street.

Deputy Cluskey.—It must be a very small sum when you consider the work being undertaken?—The main work of archaeological excavation is not done by the Museum at all; it is done generally by the universities.

542. Deputy Andrews.—On subhead E.1— Models, Accessories, Materials, etc.—are these models human species?—They are human; they pose for the students in the College.

543. Deputy Andrews.—On subhead E.2.— Scholarships and Prizes—how many scholarships would that comprise?—The annual provision is for the award of five scholarships. They run for a period of 3 to 4 years depending on the length of the diploma course.

544. Is there a maintenance allowance included in that?—They actually get a maintenance allowance of £200 and they are not required to pay fees.

545. Deputy Andrews.—Is there some State subvention to the National College of Art over and above the figures here?

Mr. Suttle.—The teachers, professors, etc. would come under subhead A.1. The Board of Works looks after the premises. These are direct expenses arising in the College of Art.

546. Deputy Treacy.—On subhead F.1.— Publications in Irish—why was the grant not fully expended?—It was felt that one university text might have been published during the year and that fees in connection with it would accrue. In fact, that did not happen.

547. Deputy Andrews.—On subhead F.3.— Grants to Colleges providing Courses in Irish— would this include Scoil Lorcáin in Monkstown? It is a very excellent Irish-speaking college in the County of Dublin. What type of grant does it receive out of this amount, if any?—It does not receive any special grant. Any grant that school receives is under the Vote for Primary Education.

548. Deputy Molloy.—What colleges are in receipt of these grants then?—The colleges that come under that Vote are mostly the Irish summer colleges.

549. Deputy Treacy.—On subhead G.1.— Royal Irish Academy (Grants-in-Aid)—could we have the main headings under which these grants are expended?—These grants are directed towards the bringing out of an academic dictionary of old Irish in the main.

In the main?—No, not in the main; they include £4,500 towards that dictionary of old Irish and the remaining sum is for the general expenses of the Academy.

550. Deputy Andrews.—On subhead G.3.— The National Film Institute of Ireland— Purchase of Educational Films (Grant-in-Aid) —do we produce our own educational films or do we rely on foreign films?—Part of the grant that goes to the National Film Institute is for the purpose of producing films, and we have on occasion, not recently, produced films directly under the Department.

551. Deputy Molloy.—You said there was a grant being made available for the publication of an old Irish dictionary. Are other Departments involved at the present time in the presentation of an up-to-date Irish dictionary? —They are.

Where is the expenditure being shown for it here?—It is under the Secondary Branch Vote. It is under F.1.; it comes partly under the Secondary Branch Vote and partly under this one.

552. Is this a one-man job?—There is a staff of about six engaged on it.

Are they all employees of the Department of Education?—Yes, they are.

Is it expected that this will be published in the near future?—The best forecast we can get is three years.

553. Deputy Cluskey.—There would be no outside consultants engaged at all?—While the staff are employed under and paid by the Department of Education, they have in fact been recruited from outside in connection with this job.

Deputy Molloy.—That is the question I asked; are they all employees of the Department?—They are employees.

Are they permanent; they are not, according to what you said?—What we do on occasion is that we get teachers from outside. They are seconded from their teaching course and we pay them. The Chief Editor of this dictionary is a civil servant and is paid as such. One editor and one assistant editor are civil servants.

554. Deputy Cluskey.—They are not necessarily attached to the Department? They can be recruited from outside and from other Departments?—We recruit through the Civil Service Commission for certain posts. In other instances we arrange secondment. One of the civil servants who is on that work is, in fact, a permanent employee of the Department of Transport and Power and has been seconded to us for that work. But, in answer to your question, they are all being paid by the Department of Education.

Deputy Molloy.—And those who are employed on this work are permanently employed in a full time capacity?—Yes.

555. Deputy Treacy.—Is it to be presumed that Dinneen’s English-Irish Dictionary is no longer suitable for the modern person?—You said English-Irish?

Deputy Treacy.—Irish-English?—The position is that Dinneen does not of itself contain sufficient Irish to cover all modern situations but as you can appreciate, in this work they are drawing extensively on Dinneen.

556. Deputy Andrews.—Then of course there would be the question of the change of the form of typescript, the Cló Romhánach instead of the Cló Gaelach?—It is also a fact that an English-Irish dictionary has already been prepared and what we are doing in relation to a good deal of this work is reversing the job.

557. Deputy Molloy.—In relation to the English-Irish Dictionary, what is happening to that? I think you said it was being prepared?— In the preparation of the Irish-English Dictionary, the English-Irish Dictionary which was prepared a number of years ago is used extensively.

There is no work being done on the English-Irish Dictionary?—No.

558. Deputy Andrews.—On subhead G.5.— Royal Zoological Society of Ireland (Grant-in-Aid)—this relates to school visits to the Zoo?—It is because of the educational content that there is in the Zoo work that we make them this grant-in-aid. It is not in fact specially related to school visits.

Deputy Treacy.—It is very desriable.

559. Deputy Andrews.—On subhead G.7.— Overseas Club (Grant-in-Aid)—where is it situated?—It is in Harcourt Street and is for foreign students.

560. Deputy Andrews.—On subhead G.12 —Language Research—can you expand that for me?—That is in fact the work that is going on at Gormanston in connection not alone with Irish but with all other modern languages.

I am very happy to see that. It is a marvellous development. This is under an tAthair Colm Ó hUallacháin?—That is so.

561. Deputy Treacy.—On subhead G.13— Muintir na Tíre (Grant-in-Aid)—is it likely that this grant will be continued?—Yes, it is envisaged that it will be a continuing grant.

562. Deputy Cluskey.—On subhead G.14— Senior Visiting Fellowship—what does that involve?—It involves a number of people from Ireland, mostly scientists and engineers, going abroad for short periods to study new techniques.

563. Chairman.—On page 64 there is a statement in respect of grants-in-aid. This relates to grants-in-aid under the various Votes?—If you take the first of these items, Purchase of Specimens, which relates to C.1, it relates to the actual grant-in-aid subheads which have already been referred to in the Vote.

VOTE 29—PRIMARY EDUCATION.

Mr. S. MacGearailt further examined.

564. Chairman.—Paragraph 32 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General states:

“Subhead A.1—Training Colleges

Reference was made in paragraph 34 of my previous report to the construction of new premises and the conversion of existing buildings at St. Patrick’s Training College, Dublin, at an estimated cost of £1,500,000, all of which is being financed from voted moneys. Expenditure incurred by the college authorities up to 31st March 1967 amounted to £1,374,107 including £106,343 for professional fees. The charge to the subhead includes £250,000 for direct grants and £61,202 in respect of principal and interest due in the year on the bank loan of £750,000 obtained by the college authorities. The total amounts issued to date are £576,000 for direct grants and £210,086 (principal £107,150; interest £102,936) for loan repayment charges.”

Have you anything to add, Mr. Suttle?

Mr. Suttle.—I have nothing to add to the information in the paragraph.

565. The architect was appointed by the College authorities, was he?

Mr. MacGearailt.—Yes, that is so.

566. Deputy Andrews.—On subhead A.1— Training Colleges—how many training colleges have we got altogether?—The easiest way is to list them. We have St. Patrick’s Training College for men. We have Carysfort College, Blackrock and Limerick, for women. We have the Christian Brothers, who have their own training college at Marino. The other teaching Brothers Orders have a training college in Waterford and then we have the Church of Ireland Training College.

Where is that situated?—Actually it was situated in Kildare Street but a new building is being provided for it at Rathmines.

567. Chairman.—As regards expenditure on St. Patrick’s College, I understand the original Estimate was £1½ million for that work?— Yes, actually the final Estimate as of now is £1½ million and if there happens to be any excess over that figure it is likely to be very slight as the work is almost completed.

568. I understand it is being financed 50-50 by a loan and by a block grant. Who pays the interest on the loan?—The Department. It is paid out of the Department’s funds.

569. With regard to these transactions, who does the auditing?—The accounts of the college are audited by officers of the Department and are, of course, in turn made available to the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Mr. Suttle.—In fact, the State is paying the full cost of the college—and paying all charges on the loan, including sinking fund and interest.

570. Deputy Andrews.—Under that subhead, what part of that sum is made available to Carysfort Training College in Blackrock?— Mr. Mac Gearailt.—The actual breakdown of that sum is as follows: £405,000 to St. Patrick’s; that includes, in fact, £250,000 capital grant; £53,900 to Carysfort; £43,000 to Limerick; £29,000 to the Church of Ireland; £6,000 Marino Christian Brothers and £4,000 de la Salle.

571. Deputy Cluskey.—Under subhead A.4 —Special Courses for Teachers of Physically and Mentally Handicapped Children—could we have an explanation as to why the full amount allocated was not spent?—The original estimate was based on an attendance of 18 teachers at the special course in St. Patrick’s Training College. Only 15 teachers, in fact, attended the course.

572. Chairman.—How many special schools have you?—We have something in the region of 45 to 50 schools.

The number has not been increased in the past year, has it?—The number is steadily increasing every year. In fact, five new schools are in process of being opened at the moment.

I ask because of the numbers waiting for vacancies?—The schools are increasing every year.

573. Deputy Cluskey.—What is the total number of teachers engaged in this type of teaching?—I have not got the figure with me, but I can let you have a note.*

Chairman.—There were 224 engaged in it last year.

574. Deputy Cluskey.—Are they nominated by the Department or do they opt for this type of work?—Where a new school is contemplated in an area one must, in advance of the opening of the school, try to make provision for staff, and teachers are selected in advance of the opening of the school to attend these special courses. That is what normally happens. In other cases they may be people with a special aptitude for this work and have, in fact, been engaged in it. If they have not done a formal training course they are released from their schools to enable them to do these courses. What, in fact, happens is you normally train people as the likelihood of their being absorbed arises.

575. Chairman.—Under subhead C.6— Grants towards the Cost of Heating, Cleaning and Painting of Schools—could you tell us if the amount made available has improved?— Where there is electric terminal storage heating in a one-teacher school the grant is £14; in a two-teacher school it is £23; three-teacher school £30; four-teacher school £35; five-teacher school £44 and so on. Cleaning: one-teacher £19; two-teacher £27; three-teacher £37; four-teacher £44; and then it increases by £7 per room.

576. Deputy Cluskey.—Under subhead C.7 —Grants towards the Cost of Free School Books for Necessitous Children—have you any indication of the number of such children?— We do not get returns from the schools. We allow the managers and principal teachers to administer this. On the secondary side we are operating on a figure of 25 per cent.

577. The manager just claims a particular sum. He does not give any indication of the number of children?—What happens is that a grant of 1/- per pupil is paid for every pupil in the school. If a school has 600 pupils it will get £30 and that £30 is distributed between the pupils who are deemed to be necessitous.

There might be in some instances only four or five children who would claim?

578. Deputy Molloy.—If more claim than are covered by the particular grant, what happens?—The position is the principal teacher has that sum to distribute and he distributes it.

579. Deputy Cluskey.—The estimate was £5,000 and expenditure amounted to £5,748?— Yes. One reason for that could be the building of a new school or schools holding large numbers. If it were a big school with a large number of children, then there would be an increase in the grant. Under this, larger schools are likely to have more. Smaller schools which have only a small number of children are not inclined to bother with the grants.

580. Deputy Cluskey.—If a school manager finds that the number of claims made on him exceed the grant allocated, has he any way of getting an addition?—Not from the Department.

The children then would not receive the benefits?—Not as far as the Department is concerned.

581. Chairman.—I understand the grant is 1/- per pupil and that it may be increased to ¼ in the case of necessitous children in the County Borough of Cork and in certain Gaeltacht areas.

Deputy Andrews.—Effectively, the sum of £5,000 covers 100,000 children?—It is based on 100,000 pupils.

582. Deputy Molloy.—How many children are attending primary schools?—About 500,000.

583. You have made allowance only for 100,000. I take it this was in expectation that the demand would only reach a certain figure, but the excess expenditure could have gone away over the estimate?—It is only in areas where they have a number of children who are deemed to be necessitous that they claim this grant at all. Many schools do not claim it.

584. Deputy Cluskey.—It is solely at the discretion of the manager whether a child is termed necessitous?—It is in fact at the discretion of the principal teacher.

But the Department do not lay down any hard and fast rules?—No.

Deputy Molloy.—At all?

585. Deputy Andrews.—Effectively, one-fifth of our primary schoolgoing population are being allowed free books?—No. That is the point I was trying to make. In the schools which claim this grant there are roughly 100,000 pupils but only a percentage of that figure in fact get the grant.

Deputy Andrews.—That is the point I made before.

586. Deputy Molloy.—Is each headmaster entitled to claim one shilling per pupil, irrespective of whether they are necessitous?—No. In practice they do not claim unless they are able to establish that there are necessitous children in the schools.

587. Deputy Cluskey.—I find it hard to reconcile that with the fact that the Department do not know how many necessitous children there are?—Unless we were to address a communication to all the schools concerned to find out from the principal teachers the number of pupils to whom they made grants for free books we could not get the figure.

The procedure is that a headmaster can claim up to a maximum of one shilling per head?—And in certain circumstances, as mentioned by the Chairman, 1/4d.

588. Deputy Andrews.—It is the only way the Department could rely on the proper operation of the system—the figures given by the principals or the headmasters?

Mr. Suttle.—They do not attempt to identify children. In the schools it is done, if you like, without identifying the children who are receiving these grants. On that basis, it was not considered discreet to enquire into the children getting the grants.

589. Deputy Molloy.—It may be all right to implement this scheme on a national level, but if you take a school in a poor area with 25 children will the headmaster agree that 20 of them are necessitous? He could claim only £1 5s. That would not be very satisfactory. Have you had many complaints from small rural schools?—No.

Deputy Molloy.—The free book scheme in secondary schools, which has been introduced in the current year, is based on an over-all assessment of 25 per cent of the pupils requiring assistance.

VOTE 30—SECONDARY EDUCATION.

Mr. S. MacGearailt called and examined.

590. Chairman.—Paragraph 33 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Subhead J.—Building Grants to Secondary Schools

The scheme of building grants for secondary schools provides that, where the Minister for Education is satisfied that a school cannot from its own resources meet the cost of new school buildings or major extensions to existing buildings and that all or a portion of the cost is being met by way of loan repayable over a number of years, an annual grant may be paid not exceeding 70 per cent of the loan repayment charges.”

Mr. Suttle.—This paragraph is for information. Secondary schools have not received grants heretofore from voted moneys for building and extensions other than some assistance from Roinn na Gaeltachta for schools in the Gaeltacht.

591. Deputy Andrews.—This scheme came into operation in February 1964?

Mr. Mac Gearailt.—Since the note was prepared, the basis of the scheme has been changed. At the time the note was prepared the onus was on the manager of the school concerned to borrow the money, and the State assumed responsibility for repayment of 70 per cent, by way of meeting the loan charges, including interest.

In fact, what is happening now is that the State is making 100 per cent of the cost available; 70 per cent of that is by way of outright grant and the school authorities are obliged to repay 30 per cent over a period of 15 years.

592. Deputy Andrews.—What about these schools that completed their operations a number of months before this scheme was introduced? Can there be any flexibility in this scheme of grants? I have in mind a situation where a community of nuns built a school in the constituency I represent. They began their building just before February 1964 which meant they were outside the scheme of grants. The total capital debt was £114,000 and their interest charge is something in the region of £11,000. It is a convent school which opted into the scheme but now they are penalised because they began the work before February 1964. Is there any hope of help for a school in this position?—The difficulty with the introduction of any scheme is that you must stipulate a date. If you start departing from the date you stipulate where do you stop?

593. Do you not take, in the final analysis, into account that the parents may not be able to pay off the debts for the Department of Education, without the Department having to come to the assistance of the community?

Chairman.—You are on to policy now.

Deputy Andrews.—It is important policy. Am I being ruled out on the basis that it is policy?

Chairman.—I am afraid it is policy.

594. Chairman: Paragraph 34 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Subhead K.—Comprehensive Schools

Reference was made in paragraph 36 of my previous report to contracts for the erection of comprehensive schools at Cootehill, Carraroe and Shannon Airport. The schools were opened in September 1966 but final payments under the contracts had not been made before the end of the financial year. Taking into account £432,565 charged in this account, expenditure on the building of the three schools to 31st March 1967 totalled £591,649 including £73,266 for professional fees. Expenditure to 31st March 1967 on the initial furnishing and equipping of the schools was £8,900 approximately.

Each school is managed by a Board appointed by the Minister for Education; expenses are charged to this subhead and receipts are credited to appropriations in aid. In the period to 31st March 1967 £45,675 was paid for salaries, wages, and miscellaneous expenses arising out of the running of the schools, and fees received amounted to £3,223.

A site for another school, at Glenties, was purchased during the year for £400 and £2,500 was paid for professional fees in connection with plans for that school.”

Have you anything to add, Mr. Suttle?

Mr. Suttle.—This paragraph is for information. I have nothing to add.

595. Chairman.—In respect of expenditure on furnishing, I should like to ask whether it is complete; it is very small?—Mr. Mac Gearailt. —In that particular year the furnishing would not have been completed. It was not.

596. Chairman.—In respect of these comprehensive schools, what pupil numbers do you expect in these schools? Have you a target you hope to reach?—About 750.

For each of them?—In Cootehill, no; but in Shannon about 750 ultimately.

597. With regard to teachers appointed to these schools, are they teachers with degrees? —It depends on the nature of the post. For academic subjects they are people with degrees and training in teaching for the Higher Diploma in Education or, alternatively, they may be national teachers who are degree holders. In relation to practical posts such as instructors in metalwork, woodwork, and so on, we require the same qualifications as are required in a vocational school. In other words, they are trained at one of the Department’s courses. In the domestic science field they are trained in the domestic science colleges.

598. Are these residential colleges?—They are all day schools.

599. What percentage of the maintenance charges will be placed on the vocational committees in their areas, or will it be on a regional basis?—In fact, the total running cost up to the present has been met by the Department.

600. Deputy Molloy.—It is stated that three schools were opened but they were not completed by September, 1966. Certainly the Carraroe one was not completed?—In order to have them open in September 1966, only stage one was completed.

When is it expected that such work will be commenced; I am interested in Carraroe?— It is, in fact, envisaged for the current year.

601. Chairman.—On subhead A.2.—Laboratory Grants—on what basis are these grants made?—The grants for science classes as such vary from £16 a class to £35 a class and in the case of furnishing and equipping laboratories we pay 75 per cent of the expenditure up to a maximum of £1,250. That was the position in that year. Since then in 1967-68 the ceiling of £1,250 has been raised and extended so as to provide grants of 70 per cent for all expenditure subject to certain maxima for domestic science and metalwork and woodwork. There is no limitation in the case of science laboratories; 70 per cent is the figure now.

602. Deputy Andrews.—On subhead A.4.— Bonus for Choirs and Orchestras—as a matter of information, who gets this bonus?— School choirs and orchestras. At present these choirs are examined by examiners selected by the Department and if they measure up to a certain standard a grant is paid in respect of them.

603. Chairman.—On subhead F.—Courses for Secondary Teachers—on the question of these courses, is there any contribution from teachers, or is the whole lot free?—In the case of residential courses, and there are some residential courses in Gormanston, we pay about 50 per cent of the cost. In the case of other courses we pay the fees of the lecturers and professors. We add a nominal charge which is 10/- or £1 so as to establish the bona fides of the teacher.

604. Have you not arranged to pay the total fees yet?—No.

I think you promised that last year?—In fact what we charge now is merely a nominal sum.

605. Deputy Andrews.—On subhead H.— Educational Television Service—is this for the provision of television sets for schools?—Yes. We actually recoup the purchase of television sets to the extent of 75 per cent subject to a maximum contribution of £50. But the main expenditure under that subhead relates to the cost of programmes themselves.

Deputy Cluskey.—Buntús Cainte?—No, purely school programmes.

Deputy Andrews.—I can envisage this sum being considerably increased in the years ahead. I think it is a very welcome and desirable service.

606. Chairman.—On subhead J.—Building Grants to Secondary Schools—I take it these schools must comply with the requirements of the free education system if they are to qualify for grants?—The position is that priority is given to schools which have come in under the scheme of free education.

Do some schools get less than 70 per cent?— Under the new arrangement they all get 70 per cent.

607. Deputy Molloy.—May I ask a question which is slightly out of order? What is the estimate for this financial year under this heading of Building Grants to Secondary Schools?—Speaking from memory, I think it is £1,450,000.

608. Chairman.—Are these grants retrospective?—Only building works which commenced after February 1964 are included for the purpose of these grants.

609. Deputy Molloy.—Are there many applications coming in for grants for secondary schools? Would they be in excess of the amount allocated?—The ultimate figure of costs in connection with these building schemes has been estimated at about £21,000,000.

This is a substantial increase on what it has been since you introduced the scheme?— Yes, very much so, It has increased enormously.

The witness withdrew.

The Committee adjourned.

* See Appendix 10.

* See Appendix 10.

* See Appendix 11.

* See Appendix 12.

* See Appendix 27

* See Appendix 13.