Committee Reports > List of Committees > Dáil > 1968 > Committee of Public Accounts > Interim and Final Reports of the Committee - Appropriation Accounts 1966 - 1967

MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA

(Minutes of Evidence)

Déardaoin 15 Feabhra, 1968.

Thursday 15th February, 1968.

The Committee met at 11 a.m.

Mr. E. F. Suttle (An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste) and Mr. J. R. Whitty (An Roinn Airgeadais) called and examined.

VOTE 31—VOCATIONAL EDUCATION.

Mr. S. MacGearailt called and examined.

610. Chairman.—On subhead A.—Annual Grants to Vocational Educational Committees—how much money do local authorities contribute to these committees? —Mr. MacGearailt—About 70 per cent comes from the State and 30 per cent from the local authorities.

That has been the average down through the years? It has not varied?—It has varied. The State’s portion has tended to increase with the years.

611. Deputy Kenny.—The 30 per cent is levied through the rates?—It is.

And there is a maximum sum?—There is a maximum in the rate which has not been changed over a number of years. The maximum is 24d. in the £.

612. Are there many local authorities giving the maximum?—They all give the maximum now but in fact it has been necessary to add supplementary grants particularly in recent years in order that they would remain solvent and consequently the State’s portion has tended to increase to the extent that about 70 per cent is now coming from the State and 30 per cent from the local authorities.

613. Deputy Healy.—On subhead B.— Training of Teachers—are you getting a sufficient number of applicants for vocational teaching? Are there any difficulties experienced in recruitment?—On the whole there is no difficulty but of course we are up against a world phenomenon in the matter of shortage of science and mathematics teachers and really in that respect I think we are better off here than most countries.

614. Chairman—Where are these people trained?—The domestic science teachers are trained in the two domestic science colleges. The others are trained in a series of courses run directly under the Department and of course a very high percentage of the teachers coming into the vocational schools are graduate teachers from the universities.

615. On subhead D.1.—Grants under Section 109 of the Vocational Education Act, 1930—these are grants to colleges?— They are grants to various colleges and they are on the basis of hours per pupil of teaching instruction. More than half of them go to resident domestic science colleges and then you have various colleges like—

616. Deputy Briscoe.—What, for example, would be the grants given to the Irish Nautical College?—Actually £20,000 was provided for in the Estimate. That included £4.900 for maintenance grants, that is, ordinary current expenses, and £15,100 for capital works. There was a saving on the subhead of £3,000 odd because of the fact that capital works were not completed before the end of the financial year.

Deputy Briscoe.—How many students are there in the Irish Nautical College?—There are 38 students.

617. Deputy Kenny.—On subhead E.— Contribution to Macra na Tuaithe (Grant-in-Aid)—what is the relationship of Macra na Tuaithe with vocational education?— Macra na Tuaithe is the young arm, as you know, of Macra na Feirme and quite a considerable number of those youth groups in Macra are associated with the local vocational schools.

618. Chairman.—On the Appropriations in Aid, item I—Fees of candidates for examinations—will those continue under the free secondary education policy?—Yes, they will.

619. Item 2.—Fees for courses—will they continue also?—The fees in question are largely fees paid by committees in respect of teachers.

620. Deputy Molloy.—What is item 3— Receipts from Church Temporalities Fund? —That goes back into history. I think it had its origins away back in 1869 with the disestablishment of the church and certain of the funds were reallocated. It is quite a long story and education has benefited from the fund since.

621. Deputy Healy.—Is it a static fund? Is it always the same amount of money?— Yes, it is now.

A sum of £30,000 in 1869 would be worth a lot now?—It has varied but it is a lot of money.

Mr. Suttle.—The fund is administered by the Land Commission. Originally it received a lot of rents from church lands, tithes, etc. All this income was handed over to provide for the salaries of rectors and church wardens, etc. According as the income of the fund was no longer needed for that purpose, it was used for various purposes like vocational education, which gets £30,000, the Department of Agriculture gets another sum, the Land Commission itself gets money and the income would be around £90,000.

622. Deputy P. J. Burke.—There must be a lot of money invested?

Mr. Suttle.—It is over two million. All the old rents and tithes have practically died out. It is an investment income now.

623. Deputy Molloy.—By whom is this money held?

Mr. Suttle.—It is held by the Minister for Finance.

VOTE 32—REFORMATORY AND INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS.

Mr. S. MacGearailt further examined.

624. Deputy Briscoe.—Subhead B refers to industrial schools. Just for information, can the Accounting Officer tell us the basic difference between the titles “Industrial School” and “Reformatory School”? Does it refer to the ages of the people who go there?—And to the nature of the crime. Very often, there is crime involved. The people sent to reformatories have, in many instances, served maybe a period in an industrial school and have persisted in their ways. There might be two or three convictions before they would be sent to a reformatory. Furthermore, the reformatory people are the older group. Normally, if they are under 16 years, they are sent to an industrial school and the older offenders are sent to a reformatory—but not necessarily.

625. How many reformatory schools have we?—Three.

Where are they located?—In Daingean, Offaly, and, for girls, in Kilmacud and Limerick.

626. Deputy P. J. Burke.—In comparison with the number of boys, would there be many girls?—Very few. The main girls’ reformatory operates on a notional figure of 50. Normally, they would have 20 to 25 under detention. The most recent figure is 20 to 21.

Mr. Suttle.—There is a note under “Explanation of the Causes of Variation between Expenditure and Grant” which says that the number of children under detention was less than expected.

627. Deputy Briscoe.—Is there any move to change the name from that of reformatory school as objections have from time to time been expressed?—There is actually a new approach to the matter at the moment. There is a new place of detention, and there will probably be some developments on that line.

Deputy P. J. Burke.—They have changed the names of some of them.

628. Deputy Molloy.—What assistance do the industrial schools get?—The industrial schools get £3 7. 6. per week per pupil.

629. Has that sum to cover everything for them? Do they get no other assistance from the State?—They would have national schools in quite a few of the industrial schools and the teachers would be paid in the normal way as national teachers.

630. What about the buildings? Do they have to provide the buildings themselves? Are there grants available for the building of the schools or any part of the schools?— They provide the buildings themselves.

Am I to understand it that they provide the whole lot out of the sum of £3 7. 6. which is paid in respect of each pupil? It is very little.

631. Deputy P. J. Burke.—When was the last increase in respect of pupils in industrial schools?—It is about two years since the last increase. A further increase is anticipated.

Deputy Molloy.—I hope it is a substantial one. I know they are in dire difficulty.

632. Deputy Kenny.—How many schools are involved?—Thirty-eight.

Deputy P. J. Burke.—It is very difficult to carry on, taking all the overheads into consideration.

633. Deputy Healy.—With regard to subhead A, Reformatory Schools, are the boys in charge of Brothers?—The main reformatory is at Daingean, Offaly, and it is in the charge of the Oblate Fathers. The one in Limerick is under the charge of the Good Shepherd Nuns and the one in Kilmacud is also under the charge of nuns. They have two for girls.

Deputy Molloy.—Two reformatories for girls and one for boys?—Yes.

634. Deputy P. J. Burke.—Have you an after-care committee which tries to place these boys, especially boys who may be orphans or who may have nobody to look after them?—Not on an official basis but there are voluntary committees, for example, functioning in connection with the schools and helping with the placing of boys and girls, as the case may be.

Deputy P. J. Burke.—It is very important work. I should like to see it developed. However, it is another matter for the Dáil.

VOTE 33—UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGES AND DUBLIN INSTITUTE FOR ADVANCED STUDIES

Mr. S. MacGearailt further examined.

635. Chairman.—Subhead C refers to University College, Cork. Has the new site for the Dental Hospital in Cork been purchased?—I cannot answer that question offhand. I think not. Actually, negotiations in connection with it have been proceeding but whether or not they have been completed I cannot say.

Deputy Healy.—The site was vested in the Hume Street Cancer Research people. The deeds have now been transferred. It was transferred to the Cork Hospital Board in the past week.

636. Deputy Molloy.—Subhead D refers to University College, Galway. These are all grants-in-aid. We cannot ask questions about how this money is spent. Are the accounts of the universities placed before the Comptroller and Auditor General?

Mr. Suttle.—Yes. I am statutorily bound to audit the accounts under the old Universities Act. However, the custom is that they are audited by commercial auditors. We do a second audit but only from time to time, one College a year. This year, now, we had staff working in Cork University. Next year, probably they will go to Galway or to Dublin. I examine the accounts from time to time.

637. Deputy Molloy.—When students are entering university, in the syllabus where their fees are shown and all that type of information is given to them, it is explained that a charge of so many pounds per student is included in the fee to cover sporting facilities. Down through the years, it has been an added grouse with students that the total amount of money paid in their fees for sporting facilities is not coming back to students by way of sporting grants to clubs. This is something you might look into when you are again auditing the university grants?

Mr. Suttle.—It is a detail I would not have at my finger tips. I was down in Cork this year and the President was telling me about the money he was spending down there on playing pitches, etc. He has been doing a tremendous amount of work in the last couple of months since he took over. I could not say what the position is in Galway. I have not been there for some time.

638. Deputy Briscoe.—On subhead F.— Trinity College—are the grants given to the various universities on a per capita basis? For example, I see the grant to Trinity College is £860,000 while the grant to the College of Surgeons is £16,000 under subhead G in respect of medicine and dentistry. Would the same grant be available for medicine and dentistry in Trinity College and U.C.D.?—Mr. MacGearailt.—It is not related to a per capita basis at all. What happens is that in about October of each year each college sends to the Department an estimate of what it considers will be its total expenditure and total income from ordinary sources during the coming financial year and says to the State: “This is the amount we feel you should make up.” Our people then examine the overall position in detail and in most instances bring the people concerned to the Department for a general discussion and arrive at a figure. In turn that figure is submitted to the Department of Finance for authority to supply that much by way of grant in the succeeding financial year. Incidentally, as a matter of information, you will see quite a number of Supplementary Estimates here. These arose because you will recall in the middle of that year the colleges said their costs were going up so much that they would have to increase fees. In order to enable them not to increase student fees, Supplementary Estimates were introduced.

639. Chairman.—In regard to the other point raised, as to what amount of money is contributed by the State for medical education in the universities vis-á-vis the Royal College, I think it is true that the fees paid by students of the Royal College are higher than elsewhere. They are more self-sufficient in that respect than the universities. That has been the pattern down through the years?—That is so.

640. Deputy Molloy.—It is difficult to understand why in Cork they needed a supplementary grant of £33,000 when in fact they spent £150,000 less than what they were granted?—That relates to capital.

641. Deputy Healy.—On subhead H.— Dublin Dental Hospital—is that hospital now fully operative? Is it of a standard that is recognised by the British Dental Association? A lot of money has been put into it in the last five or six years. Is it now of a recognised standard?—All I can say is there is no question of not recognising it.

642. Deputy Briscoe.—Subheads J. and K. relate to the Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies. How many people are availing of these studies? How many students are there?—They do not operate on the basis of students so much. What happens is they have individual professors there and most of them are engaged on personal research. The students they get are mostly of Ph.D. standard—doctorate standard. The numbers vary very much from time to time. A full report of the institute’s activities is submitted every year to the Dáil.

643. Deputy Kenny.—Are there professors from each of the universities or only from one?—They are actually appointed to the Institute itself and have severed their connection with the universities.

644. Deputy Healy.—Is it availed of to any great extent by foreign doctors?—Yes. The Institute has a very high international standing.

Mr. Suttle.—They get money from America to carry out world research.

645. Deputy Healy.—In regard to the explanation of subhead C.—University College, Cork—the university were not able to spend a sum of £150,000 capital expenditure in the year under review. I take it that is just put away or they may even have spent it by now? They do not have to re-apply for it?—That money would have been re-voted in the subsequent financial year. The Deputy would possibly know this better than I would, but what happened was they ran into difficulties in connection with the site, blasting and so on. The result was that they were not able to proceed with the actual building to the extent anticipated in that year. That money would have been re-voted in the subsequent financial year. Therefore they actually would not lose anything?—No.

Deputy Healy.—I thought they might be in a rush to spend it before 31st March.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 50—LABOUR.

Mr. T. Ó Cearbhaill called and examined.

Chairman.—This is Mr. Ó Cearbhaill’s first appearance before us and we wish him céad míle fáilte.

Deputy P. J. Burke.—It is very nice to see him here.

Mr. Ó Cearbhaill.—Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I regard it as a great honour to be called before this Committee.

646. Chairman.—On subhead A.—Salaries, Wages and Allowances—I understand there has been a transfer of staff from the Departments of Industry and Commerce and Social Welfare to this Department. This figure does not include these, does it? —No. Provision was made in the Votes for Industry and Commerce and for Social Welfare for certain staff who during the year in question were transferred to the Department of Labour. I can give the Committee the numbers of staff involved who are accounted for in the other two Votes and who were so transferred: from Industry and Commerce—146; from Social Welfare—542. The Vote in question here— subhead A— provided for 37 additional new posts and most of these posts were filled during the year.

647. Chairman.—On subhead B.—Travelling and Incidental Expenses—they were much less than anticipated?—Yes, that is because the Department did not develop as quickly as we had expected. I should explain to the Committee that a feature of Labour administration is a higher degree of consultation with outside interests such as employers and trade unions than in other branches of administration and this is an explanation why a Department of Labour would not develop as quickly as other services might.

648. Chairman.—Could you tell us something about subhead C?—Commissions, Committees and Special Inquiries?—The main provision made for commissions was for the Manpower Advisory Committee which was in existence in the Department of Industry and Commerce and which was taken over on the establishment of the Department of Labour. We anticipated at the time that possibly this committee would require to travel abroad or to engage in activities incurring expenditure. We also envisaged other work such as manpower surveying. In the case of the Manpower Advisory Committee, it was engaged almost entirely on consultation with the Department on two very important pieces of legislation, that is, the Industrial Training Bill and the Redundancy Payments Bill. These consultations did not involve expenditure. In regard to manpower surveys certain of these were undertaken during the year but were not completed. Some of them have been completed since and the cost will appear in subsequent accounts.

649. Deputy Healy.—In a dispute like the present one in Bord na Móna, does your Department interest itself in any way or would it be involved?—The Minister’s policy is to allow the Labour Court, which includes the conciliation service, to process claims and disputes of this kind. The staff of the Labour Court are, of course, paid from this Vote.

650. Deputy Healy.—What I am wondering is what tie-up there is between the Department of Labour and the Labour Court? How close is the liaison between the two?—The Labour Court is comprised of two employers’ representatives, two workers’ representatives and an independent chairman, all appointed by the Minister for Labour.

So you have some say in it?—We have, but the policy is to allow the Labour Court to operate as an independent body in the matter of making recommendations and intervening in industrial disputes.

Deputy P. J. Burke.—In other words, it is an arm of your Department?—You could put it that way, subject to the explanation I have given.

651. Deputy Healy.—What is important is that obviously the Minister for Labour, due to the fact that the chairman is one of his staff, is fully acquainted with every aspect as soon as it is known. He is made aware of everything that is happening in industry. News of friction and difficulties that arise comes to him in the shortest possible time?—That is so. The Minister for Labour has full information and he provides through this Vote a service which is at the disposal of the parties to industrial disputes and which they can use.

Is that outside the Labour Court?—No. that is under the Labour Court.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 27—LOCAL GOVERNMENT.

Mr. M. B. Lawless called and examined.

652. Chairman.—Paragraph 31 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Motor Vehicle Duties

31. A test examination of the revenue from motor vehicle duties, etc., was carried out with satisfactory results. The reports of the Local Government auditors who examine the motor tax transactions of local authorities are made available to me.

The gross proceeds in 1966-67 amounted to £10,453,353 compared with £9,594,197 in the previous year. They include fines amounting to £216,993 collected by the Department of Justice; £6,151 in respect of fees received under the Road Traffic Act, 1961, Road Traffic (Public Service Vehicles) Regulations, 1963; £12,752 fees collected by Planning Authorities in respect of appliances and structures for servicing vehicles; £43,491 fees received by the Department of Local Government pursuant to the Road Traffic (Licensing of Drivers) Regulations, 1964, and £78,368 received from government departments in respect of State owned vehicles.

£10,426,491 was paid into the Exchequer and £12,104 was refunded leaving a balance of £159,137 as compared with £144,379 at the end of the previous financial year.”

653. In respect of this paragraph how much was paid to local authorities for road services?—I think I have the account of the Road Fund with me here as audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General. From the accounts of the Road Fund for the year ended the 31st March, 1967, the total of the grants paid to local authorities was £8,411,414. That is for road maintenance and road improvement grants.

The corresponding figure the previous year was £8,893,143?—I have not got last year’s figure with me unfortunately.

That was the reply given last year. I take it it was calculated on the same basis?—I am sure it was.

654. There has been a fall off. I wonder could we have the Road Fund accounts supplied to the Committee in future years? They are in the Library but we have not been supplied with them here?—Certainly, I do not see any difficulty in that, Mr. Chairman.

655. Deputy Healy.—The fines collected by the Department of Justice amounted to £216,993. Would they be on-the-spot fines? —Mainly, yes.

656. Deputy Kenny.—Do they increase if one is caught a few times?

Deputy Healy.—No, it is always the same unless you do not pay it.

Mr. Lawless—Perhaps it would raise administrative difficulties to increase them.

657. Chairman.—In respect of this amount of money which comes from road tax back to local authorities for road maintenance and road work in general, I understand that in accordance with certain provisions of section 17 of the 1966 Finance Act the profits of increasing rates of road tax imposed by that Act are due to the Exchequer and not to the Road Fund?— That is correct.

658. How much do those accounts amount to? The point may be of some importance because it does not appear in the Vote for the Department?

Mr. Suttle.—Would you have the figure that was passed to the Road Fund as against the total amount paid to the Exchequer from the road taxes? It would be shown on the Road Fund Account?—The income from the Central Fund was £9,214,912.

Mr. Suttle.—The payments to the Exchequer were £10,426,491 so over £1,000,000 would be retained in the Exchequer as against the amount handed over.

Mr. Lawless.—The actual amount retained in the Exchequer was £1,211,578.

659. Deputy Healy.—On subhead A— Salaries, Wages and Allowances—was there some reason why the full staff appointments were not made?—It was mainly because we did not get enough driver testers for the driver testing section. We find it rather hard to recruit driver testers.

660. Deputy P. J. Burke.—I am sure you get enough applications but it is not easy to get the right persons?—Yes, it is rather difficult to get the right people. We provisionally estimated for 35 driver testers but only 15 were employed in 1966-67.

661. Deputy Healy.—Did you find there was a very great outcry from people who wanted to have driving tests and were not able to have them because of long delays? —Yes, there were complaints in a number of cases about delay in getting tests. Generally, we try to meet people whose employment depends on getting driving licences.

662. Chairman.—You state there has not been much increase in your staff as regards driver testers but the total staff increased from 428 in the second last year to 522 last year and this present year to 564 so there has been a substantial increase in staff. If there was not a great increase in driver testers, was there an increase in planning posts?—There has been an increase in the number of planning staff and in the administrative staff as well. Generally, it is because the Department are taking on new functions under various pieces of legislation. For example, you have referred to two, one, driver testing and the other, planning.

663. Deputy Kenny.—What form of selection do you adopt for the driver testers?—They are selected by the Civil Service Commission.

Is there a practical test?—Yes.

664. Deputy Healy.—I do not want to go into policy but it seems to me that the Civil Service Commission is a rather cumbersome way of selecting a man for testing drivers. One would think that one or two of those appointed would surely be able to find out if a person was suitable on the spot and it would be much better than having to go to the Civil Service Commission which takes a bit of time and is slow of necessity.

Mr. Suttle.—I think it is policy. The question of all permanent appointments in the Civil Service must go to the Civil Service Commission?—The same thing applies to local authorities. One could argue that a local authority could select its own staff but when you have a Local Appointments Commission, which provide an established procedure for making appointments by selection boards which normally consist of one local authority officer, an officer of the Department with an independent chairman.

665. Deputy Kenny.—Would your Department have any function in the rural improvements schemes which are being handed over to local authorities?—My Minister would be the responsible Minister when they are taken over by local authorities as from 1st April next.

666. Chairman.—Under subhead C—Post Office Services—there has been a considerable jump here in the expenditure. In two years the expenditure on the Post Office services has doubled. It was £18,697 two years ago and in the present year it is £37,377?—I understand that the original Estimate of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs for postal services for 1966-67 was £17,000. This did not include any element in respect of an adjustment which might be required in the amount paid in 1965-66.

667. Deputy Healy.—What are those services?—Postal services, telephone and telegrams. Part of the excess is due to the fact that there was an underpayment of about £6,000 in 1965-66.

668. Chairman.—Subhead D refers to Statutory Inquiries. These are mostly for Compulsory Purchase Orders?—That is correct.

669. Deputy Healy.—Subhead E.1 relates to Local Authority Housing which shows that £124,000 more than granted was spent. I take it that that would have had to be paid in any event? The note says it was because the necessary documentation in respect of subsidy due to certain local authorities was submitted earlier than anticipated. Am I correct in what I say?— That is correct.

670. I take it that the documentation would have been received at a later date? —That is correct. In the case of large local authority housing schemes, it is some time very often before the accounts are finally written up and the appropriate amounts claimed.

Deputy Healy.—It seems to me that this is a tribute to the local authority.

671. Chairman.—Last year, Deputy Burke asked for a break-down as between all the local authorities in respect of subhead E.1, this subsidy to loans. Perhaps the Accounting Officer could give us a similar break-down for the current year?—I think I have the list here. Perhaps it would be more convenient if I sent it to you?

Yes, please.*

672. Subhead E.2 refers to Private Housing, Water Supply and Sewerage Grants. We got a break-down of that last year, on the same lines as the Estimates, as between housing, water supplies and sewerage.

Deputy P. J. Burke.—I should like that again.†

673. Deputy Healy.—Can the Accounting Officer tell us anything about plastic piping? Is it now available?—It is available now in the quantities required.

674. Chairman.—As regards plastic piping, I take it that all the piping supplied to local authorities has been got through the Combined Purchasing Section?—Yes, but normally, the piping in local authority water supply schemes is laid by contractors who provide their own pipes.

675. I mention the matter because I am sure it is the same in other parts of the country as it is in my county. We have discovered deficiency in these pipes, after putting them down. In some cases, we have pipes down for a year. There is considerable correspondence going on between the people who manufacture the pipes and the local authority. Now, trial tappings have been taken of these pipes. Were these pipes submitted to the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards before they were accepted? How did it arise that apparently a deficiency arose?—I understand that, with plastic pipes, a margin of 5 per cent is allowable. In other words, if one pipe in 20 breaks, that is accepted as a normal risk. Sometimes more than one in 20 is faulty. It is then that the difficulties arise. Normally, one in 20 is taken as an accepted risk. During 1966-67 it was found that a number of these pipes were faulty and did not comply with our specification. A very close supervision was kept over the manufacture of these pipes, in conjunction with the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards.

676. With regard to the “Explanation of the Causes of Variation between Expenditure and Grant”, on page 58, could the Accounting Officer explain to us the position in regard to subhead F—Water Supply and Sewerage Schemes?—The excess was due mainly to the increase in short-term borrowing and higher interest rates. Bank borrowing, which is normally on a 10 to 15-year basis, or even longer, was, during the period of restricted credit in 1965-66, reduced in many cases to a five or ten-year basis. Normally, that meant that the bank and insurance company charges were correspondingly increased.

677. Deputy Healy.—No. 5 of the Appropriations-in-Aid refers to fees payable by applicants for grants under the Housing Acts. What is the fee?—The normal fee is two guineas.

The witness withdrew.

The Committee adjourned.

* See Appendix 14

† See Appendix 15