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MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA(Minutes of Evidence)Déardaoin, 1 Feabhra, 1968.Thursday, 1st February, 1968.The Committee met at 11 a.m.
Mr. E. F. Suttle (An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste) and Miss Breathnach and Mr. Mac Guill (An Roinn Airgeadais) called and examined.VOTE 19—VALUATION AND ORDNANCE SURVEY.Mr. J. Mooney called and examined.415. Deputy Kenny.—On subhead D.— Stores—and subhead E.—Equipment—I see there were Stationery Office agency charges. What type of charges are these?—Heretofore when we bought materials or equipment it was done through the Stationery Office and they made a charge corresponding to a wholesale charge. We felt that was rather incongruous and we approached them and suggested that they should discontinue it, which they did. It meant that since then we have not being paying them so much. In other words we buy the equipment at the nett cost. 416. Chairman.—The explanation on subhead A—Salaries, Wages and Allowances— states that the savings were due mainly to vacancies. Were there many vacancies?— There were vacancies for two valuers, an executive officer, a clerical officer and a draughtsman. There were also resignations of two clerical officers, two cleaners, two technical assistants—one due to a death. The vacancies in general have been filled but in the nature of things other vacancies have occurred. 417. What progress has been made as regards the survey mapping of Dublin city?—The resurvey of Dublin city is proceeding. This is the second year or so and it will take a number of years more to finish this re-survey. We will then get down to the large-scale re-mapping of Dublin city. Deputy P. J. Burke.—It is a big job?— With the staff we have the progress is satisfactory. 418. Deputy Briscoe.—You are still understaffed in the Ordnance Survey Office— We have proposals before the Department of Finance for more staff. 419. Chairman.—Is an aerial survey part of it?—Yes, we use aerial survey of Dublin city. Who is doing that?—The photographs are taken by the Air Corps of the Department of Defence. We have special machines then for processing the photographs. Deputy Briscoe.—I would just like to mention that following the Public Accounts meeting last year I decided to visit the Ordnance Survey Office. I was very impressed by what I saw going on there, and I would recommend a visit to the other members of the Committee to see the tremendous work they do. 420. Chairman.—The selling of maps is still thriving?—Yes, it is very satisfactory. This year we will have a receipt of nearly £40,000 which represents about six or seven times what it was eight or nine years ago. In addition, we supply maps free to Government Departments to the value of about £40,000. Therefore, one could say that between the two we have a total receipt of about £70,000. We are aiming at pushing this much higher. 421. Deputy Briscoe.—I hope that does not mean increasing the price of maps again?—The price of large-scale maps was so out-of-date we had to step it up a little bit but it is really that there is more demand for the maps, reflecting, I suppose, the increasing prosperity of the country. We are contemplating now doing more than just waiting for people to come and buy them. We want to get to the people. I have in mind the employment for the first time of a specially trained traveller with a modern technique of salesmanship to try to expand the sales further. Up to the present time the receipts reflect the old price of ten shillings. They are £1 now. So we might expect nearly double that figure next year?—That figure relates only to the big maps for farmers and so on. 422. Deputy Crowley.—Last year we asked you if you had sold an old machine. You said that you had not but hoped to sell it in the coming year. Was it sold?— No. it was not. You did not even get the scrap value?— No. VOTE 20—RATES ON GOVERNMENT PROPERTY.Mr. J. Mooney further examined.423. Chairman.—On subhead B.—Contributions towards Rates on Premises occupied by Representatives of External Governments—has your problem with the USA been resolved?—Unfortunately it has not. External Affairs are still negotiating with the Americans. It is still in the air, I am sorry to say. The witness withdrew. VOTE 34—NATIONAL GALLERY.Mr. J. White called and examined.424. Deputy Briscoe.—On subhead E.— Conservation of Works of Art—I should like to ask Mr. White how that work is going along. You have a young man employed now doing this work?—It is going along very well. This time last year when you were kind enough to ask me about this conservation I told you we were trying to get our allowance of £500 for restoration transferred from ordinary estimates to grant-in-aid. We did, as a matter of fact, thanks to your suggestion. I asked the Department of Finance and they took up the suggestion and gave us £1,000 as a grant-in-aid. This work is progressing very well. I should tell you that as well as a young Irishman trained in Italy, we also had a visit from twelve restorers from Italy during the summer who undertook relining and cleaning of pictures as a group. We got a grant for it out of the Shaw Trust since it was for the improvement of the collection. 425. Chairman.—Is the work on the gallery completed?—Very far advanced. It is now possible to show you the whole interior structure as well as the walls covered in timber and we are waiting for it to dry out to cover them with linen. The new extension is expected to be opened publicly in September. 426. Deputy Briscoe.—Is the work on the restaurant progressing?—That is going fine. The Government kindly granted an extra £6,000 for the fitting up of the kitchen. We hope it will open at the same time. It is not really a restaurant, rather a sort of cafeteria where morning teas and afternoon teas and snack lunches and so on—minerals and ice creams for children—will be served. Deputy P. J. Burke.—You are not putting in a lounge?—Not at the moment. 427. Deputy Kenny.—Are the fire precautions adequate?—Yes. The estimate for part of the new construction of the gallery took into account the installing of a fire alarm system based on smoke detectors. It is extremely satisfactory, extremely efficient. In every single room or area there is a small electric detector. If you take a piece of brown paper and light it the smoke will activate the detector straight away. It is automatically attached both to the fire brigade and the alarm bell. 428. Deputy Crowley.—Are you satisfied that the policy of the Government to do all their own insurance is not too risky in the sense that there is such a vast amount of money involved if anything did happen and if for any reason your fire precautions did not come into operation? Chairman.—The witness cannot give a view on policy. Deputy Crowley.—I am not trying to place the witness in an awkward position although I know my question could be so interpreted. It is not normal Government policy in the strict sense of the word. We have works of art of very high value. Mr. White.—If you wish, I can give a satisfactory answer. The general policy in national galleries is not to have insurance because premiums would be enormous and it is far better to use the money that would be spent on premiums on things like fire precautions, burglary precautions, supervision and frequent patrolling of the premises. The answer in the long run is that even if you have a fire you cannot replace the works. They are not replaceable. Therefore it is generally considered that the thing to do is to put the money you would have spent in insurance into making absolutely certain that nothing happens. 429. How much a year would that be?— On a national gallery I do not know what kind of insurance you would get. The best kind of policy is 10/- per £100. You might be able to get something like 5/- per £100. So, it is perhaps, better to spend the money on making sure that nothing happens. 430. Deputy Treacy.—Would you refresh my memory in respect of the cataloguing of all important items under your control?— Yes. We have been working non-stop on this and the total cataloguing of all the section of water colours and drawings has been completed—that is well over 2,000 works. We have a card for every single work. We are now proceeding to expand that card in the case of oil paintings, sculptures, silver, furniture, to the dimensions of the drawings so that it would be a complete description. As soon as that is done we hope to publish it but we can give the information relevant to pictures and drawings to any Deputy or responsible member of the public prior to publication. 431. When do you hope to complete the cataloguing?—The kind we would like to publish would take time, would have to be in sections. A proper catalogue for 7,000 works would be very big. We are going to publish it in sections. We are now working with the idea, first of all, of publishing a catalogue of Irish and English paintings and drawings because the information is most readily available. As soon as that has been published we hope to turn our attention to each of the Continental schools. As you can, of course, appreciate it will be necessary for us to get the co-operation of experts in Italy, Belgium, France, and so on, to put us right in relation to certain attributions in regard to which we have not got enough information; it is not possible to know. 432. Deputy P. J. Burke.—Would you have many pictures in storage which you are unable to hang?—Yes. At the moment we show approximately ten per cent of our collection publicly. When we get the new building finished in September, we will show close to 20 per cent. These are approximate figures. That does not, of course, mean that the 80 per cent are worth showing. A great number of the works in reserve are, for one reason or another, works of reference. Almost half of our total collection is the sort of thing no provincial gallery would want to exhibit. 433. Is it for historical reasons you hold some you could not exhibit?—We are like the National Library. We have a large number of works—water colours, landscapes and so on—which we look after for historical reasons. They are there for reference by the public and art students. They would never be worth showing. We have several portraits, for instance, of men like Wolfe Tone, done by amateurs, perhaps, of the period that no one really would want to see; but it is necessary to preserve any image of the great Irish patriot in case at any time a student wants to examine it. 434. Deputy Crowley.—Fifty per cent of the paintings would be works of reference? —At least 50 per cent; that is right. 435. Deputy Healy.—Mr. White exhibits ten per cent at the moment and this figure will increase to 20 per cent in September and then the other 30 per cent worth showing are not being shown in either of the galleries in Dublin. Is that right?—Something in that region. I would not mind 20 per cent. That would be more than sufficient to satisfy all the other galleries capable of taking such pictures?—You will find I think, as far as the National Gallery and the Board of Governors are concerned, that you are pushing an open door. Our greatest desire is to show our National Gallery in every county. 436. Deputy Briscoe.—Are many of the paintings, which are considered not fit for showing, bequests?—Yes. Sometimes someone leaves 25 pictures—family portraits— and we take the whole bequest because one may get one or two important pictures and that is how one builds up a great collection eventually. That is true of every gallery. In Munich there are 15,000 pictures, out of which they show 1,000. 437. Deputy P. J. Burke.—Have you had many requests for pictures you have in storage?—Yes. I do not think a day passes that some picture has to be taken from the store to be examined by an inquirer. As well as that, we loan quite a number of pictures as it is—in groups. For instance, we ourselves have a series of running exhibitions. We did the 1916 exhibition, the Swift exhibition and the Yeats exhibition. On such occasions we use from our own store a large number of works we would not normally show. When we get the new building we will try to anthologise the history of Irishmen of note and exhibit in rotation large numbers of Irish patriots and we shall try to make the exhibitions coincide with anniversaries, as they occur. 438. Deputy Crowley.—In the case of paintings which are bequeathed, many being of no artistic merit, has the Gallery got any right to dispose of them?—No. It must hold them regardless?—The collection is vested in us by Act of Parliament and we must care for it forever. Unless there was a new Act of Parliament one could not sell. Deputy Healy.—It is a matter for the Dáil?—It is. It is a matter of policy; it is wiser not to sell because one could sell only what appears to be valueless and there is always the possibility that these may come into fashion one hundred years on. For that reason it is worth keeping them. 439. Deputy Crowley.—Do you have much difficulty in preserving what you store?—At the moment our problem is basement space and proper storage regulations but, with the new building, we will revise these and then, we hope, the members of the public who have business in the Gallery will be able to come into the storage department and see the pictures they want to see there. The witness withdrew. VOTE 9—EMPLOYMENT AND EMERGENCY SCHEMES.Mr. M. Hawe called and examined.440. Chairman.—Under subhead A.— Salaries, Wages and Allowances—why was there such a reduction in staff?—We over-estimated the saving in relation to the reduction in staff. In that year there was quite a substantial reduction in the Vote and, compared with the previous year, we estimated that subhead to be reduced by approximately £50,000. In actual fact, we found we over-estimated that reduction. There was nevertheless a very substantial reduction in staff in that year. For instance, the administrative and clerical staff was reduced from 67 to 40; the engineering staff was reduced from 33 to 22; junior engineering supervisors were reduced from 17 to ten. We realised from the beginning that, when the Estimate was reduced, there should be a reduction in the staff. 441. Deputy Kenny.—In regard to subhead H.—Rural Improvements Scheme— could Mr. Hawe tell us what percentage of the total expenditure went on the administration of these schemes, the Rural Improvement Schemes, the Minor Employment Schemes and the others?—Taking all the schemes together? I am asking this question because, as you know, these schemes have been handed over to the local authorities and as far as can be understood the Department are only allowing ten per cent for administration. In your experience, what percentage went to administer all those various schemes?— Our expenses in 1966-67, even with the reduction of staff, were higher than we would have thought reasonable. We calculate that normally administrative expenses would probably be of the order of 20 per cent. That would be very high. I do not know whether at this stage I should go into comparisons with the county councils. 442. Members here who are also members of local authorities will know that we have been asked to accept ten per cent as the cost of administration. In Mayo the county engineer has refused this because his estimate was something like yours; it was 22 per cent. In your experience, it would be about 20 per cent?—We would regard that as acceptable, with a separate office which was reasonably efficiently organised. Of course, one of the main reasons for the transfer is to get further economies in administration by eliminating the separate organisation and using the existing county council machine. That is where the difference comes in. That is one of the keys to this whole question. Therefore, 15 per cent would be a fair estimate? Deputy P. J. Burke.—The county councils are paying for the offices. Deputy Crowley.—They have the personnel and the offices available. Chairman.—They say they have not. Deputy Kenny.—It will be coming in this year. Mr. Hawe.—That, of course, is a matter of policy for the Minister for Local Government. 443. Are you handing over a big backlog from your office to the county councils?— Yes, there is a fair backlog, in certain cases, of applications that are more or less current. Any time you draw the line on the scheme there will be applications outstanding and it is these that are being handed over to the county council. I think in Mayo they have already got such applications as we have not dealt with. 444. Chairman.—Would the backlog be bigger than at the corresponding period five or six years ago? There was a slowdown?—It probably would be something bigger but always on that scheme there was a backlog. We have for a long time worked 12 months or even more in arrears. At best, there would be about six months delay in dealing with the inspection and other matters requiring investigation. Then there was a certain amount of queuing as well. That has been the position over a pretty long period. 445. Deputy Treacy.—I hope I am not delving too deeply into a policy matter. May I ask what the likely effects will be of the transfer of such a large volume of your work to other agencies from the point of view of the future of the employment and emergency schemes as we know them and from the immediate point of view of possible redundancy within your Department?—The financial provision for the schemes of course is a matter of policy and the change that has been made need not necessarily involve any change in policy. As regards the staff, all the Civil Service staff is being absorbed in vacancies in other Departments. That would apply to all the permanent staff. There is the problem of gangers. They normally are casual workers who are taken on for a particular job. There is a panel of gangers and according to their experience they are called out when a job comes along. We are asking the county councils to arrange that these people should have priority for employment on the schemes. I think most of the councils will agree to that. 446. Chairman.—You are asking the county councils to take over subheads E, F and H. Is that correct?—No, it is subheads F—Minor Employment Schemes, G— Development Works in Bogs used by Land-holders and other Private Producers and H—Rural Improvements Scheme. They already had the subhead E—Rural Employment Schemes—grants for small towns. They have always been administered by the county councils. Subhead D.—Urban Employment Schemes—grants have also always been administered by the local authorities. There will be no change there. The witness withdrew. VOTE 47—SOCIAL WELFARE.Mr. L. Ó hUanacháin called and examined.447. Chairman.—Paragraph 80 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads: “Subhead E.—Payment to the Social Insurance Fund under section 39 (9) of the Social Welfare Act, 1952 80. Payments from this subhead to the Social Insurance Fund in the year under review amounted to £13,513,000. These payments are subject to adjustment when the audited accounts of the Fund are available.” 448. Have you anything to add, Mr. Suttle? Mr. Suttle.—The payments out of this subhead are for the purpose of making up the deficiency between the income and the expenditure of the Social Insurance Fund. The adjusted figure based on the audited accounts of the fund is £13,403,549, representing 40.1 per cent of the total Income of the Fund as compared with £10,892,695 representing 39.5 per cent of Income in 1965/66. 449. Chairman.—Paragraph 81 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads: “Social Assistance Overpayments 81. Sums recovered in respect of overpayments of social assistance charged in prior years’ accounts were:—£16,433 in cash credited to appropriations in aid and £6,051 withheld from current entitlements. Overpayments amounting to £11,393 were treated as irrecoverable. The total amount of overpayments not disposed of at 31 March 1967 was £68,559 as compared with £60,086 at 31 March 1966. During the year 14 individuals were prosecuted for irregularly obtaining or attempting to obtain social assistance and convictions were secured in 11 cases.” 450. Have you anything to add to this paragraph, Mr. Suttle? Mr. Suttle.—The sum of £11,393 referred to in this paragraph includes £9,180 in respect of a series of overpayments of non-contributory Old Age Pensions to which reference was made in paragraph 16 of the Committee’s last Report. The total sum involved in these cases was £14,040 and the balance, £4,860 which was overpaid in 1966-67, is included in the charge to subhead M. 451. Deputy Briscoe.—So I understand now that any overpayments to old age pensioners are not to be recovered from them. This suggestion which we put forward was adopted? Mr. Suttle.—In similar circumstances. Deputy Briscoe.—Good. I am very glad to hear that they acted so promptly on it. 452. Deputy Kenny.—How do you assess recoverability? Mr. Ó hUanacháin.—For instance if a person left the country and we could not trace him we would regard the money that was overpaid to him as being irrecoverable. Other circumstances arise too. We do not list any items like that as irrecoverable of course without the approval of the Department of Finance. 453.—Would means come into the assessment?—For old age pensions, yes. Or for blind pensions. Would you take the circumstances of the person into account?—If the person is there and the overpayment has been made to him we endeavour to recover the amount overpaid from subsequent payments of assistance if it is feasible. 454. If there was hardship involved for the person concerned would you then deem it irrecoverable?—Each case would be considered separately. 455. Deputy Briscoe.—I would imagine that one of the considerations to be given to this is the cost of recovery compared to the amount you are trying to recover. Is there a fairly broad outlook on this?— I would say yes. If the thing was not worth the candle we would not pursue it any further but it remains a debt to the State of course in law, and we would not have authority to come to a decision like that without the approval of the Department of Finance. 456. Is there any possibility that excessive administration costs might occur due to trying to recover overpayments?—I think that would be rather unlikely. We are in touch with the Department of Finance every year. We report such cases where we feel it is not worth pursuing the matter further and ask for authority to write them off. 457. Chairman.—Under subhead A— Salaries, Wages and Allowances—there is an increase of £300,000 in the actual figures— expenditure in 1965-66, £1,632,000 and last year, £1,909,000. Can you comment on that?—During the year there were arbitration awards made by the Civil Service Arbitration Board in respect of claims of Social Welfare officers and local agents. These, together with the other pay increases, brought the additional expenditure up by something in the order of £250,000. There was no substantial increase in the number of staff?—No. Just purely pay increase?—That is right, yes. 458. In regard to subhead G—Old Age Pensions (Non-Contributory) — has there been a falling off in non-contributory old age pensions as a result of the introduction of the contributory old age pension?—I think as time goes on more people will obtain contributory pensions and to that extent there will be a fall in the numbers of non-contributory pensions but it is a small movement. 459. Any fall in actual numbers will, I know, be offset by the increase to each pensioner but will the number in receipt of non-contributory pension decrease as a result of the introduction of the contributory pension scheme?—When the contributory pension scheme was introduced, the number fell substantially straight away. People in receipt of non-contributory pensions were able to get the contributory pensions on the basis of previous records but now the thing is fairly steady, although I think I am right in saying that there will be a slow reduction in the number of non-contributory pensions as more people become qualified for the contributory pension arising from more people being in employment and getting title to contributory pensions according as they reach the age of 70. 460. Deputy Kenny.—In regard to subhead K—Miscellaneous Grants—what kind of grants are these?—There are five different kinds of grants under that heading. They appear as set out in the original Estimate: grants under the Education (Provision of Meals) Acts; grants under the School Meals (Gaeltacht) Acts; grants towards the supply of fuel for necessitous families; grants towards the supply of footwear for necessitous children and welfare of the blind. 461. Chairman.—We have been circulated with the accounts of the Social Insurance Fund.* Under the Investment Account, I take it that as well as making purchases you also sell some of these?—Mr. Chairman, the Investment Account is the responsibility of the Minister for Finance. 462. Deputy Briscoe.—Are there many citizens, who are fairly comfortably established, who do not call on the benefits to which they are entitled? Is there much of a give and would you have any way of knowing why they do not call on it?— I would not know really how to answer that question. That is a matter that could only be determined by methods of social research. 463. Chairman.—There has been a big increase in contributions under the Social Insurance Fund. You have £19 million for this year and you had approximately £16 million the year before that. Is this due to increased contributions or to increased numbers?—It is increased amounts, for one thing, because of higher contributions. Contributions were increased during the year; numbers increased—if at all—only very slightly. The witness withdrew. The Committee adjourned. * See Appendix 9. |
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