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MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA(Minutes of Evidence)Dé Céadaoin, 20ú Samhain, 1946.Wednesday, 20th November, 1946.The Committee sat at 11 a.m.
Mr. J. Maher (An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste), and Mr. L. M. Fitzgerald (An Roinn Airgeadais), called and examined.VOTE 21—STATIONERY AND PRINTING.Mr. J. B. Whelehan called and examined.313. Chairman.—Can you say when it is expected to bring the bound volumes of the Oireachtas Debates—Subhead F.2 —up to date?—Offhand, I could not say, because the entire printing trade at the moment is in a very difficult position. 314. Deputy Coogan.—When will it be possible to have the daily issues supplied? They are supposed in theory to be daily issues at the moment, but they are very irregular in supply. It is almost a week sometimes before we get them?— They are issued in daily booklets at present, but there is some understanding with the Committee on Procedure and Privileges about the matter, and, if that be varied, every effort will be made to meet whatever decision is arrived at. 315. For example, the booklet of last Friday’s Debates, 15th November, reached me only this morning and would not reach country Deputies until tomorrow morning?—The printers do not work at the week-end. Saturday is a closed day with them. These debates probably would be set on Monday and possibly could be a little earlier. I should not like to give an undertaking, because at the moment our difficulty is to have essetial printing done. Deputies may feel that the most essential of all printing would be the Dáil Debates, but there are certain bread and butter lines which we find it very difficult to maintain at the moment. 316. Deputy Sheldon.—With regard to Subhead M.—Appropriations-in-Aid—are the sales of ordnance maps continuing to be good?—Not at the peak which they attained that year. I may mention that the figure of £1,269 includes a complete set of ordnance maps covering the Archdiocese of Dublin which all parish priests have had to get. 317. They would be large scale maps?— They were not all large scale—the city areas, yes, but other areas not so large. VOTE 22—VALUATION AND BOUNDARY SURVEY.Mr. C. C. McEligott called and examined.318. Chairman.—With regard to Appropriations-in-Aid, what are the fees payable under 23 Vict., C.4. Sec. 9?— They are fees payable for extracts from the valuation lists and for copies of maps, etc. They are charged for on a scale of fees approved by the Department of Finance and which incidentally have not been increased during the war. We charge 2/6 for an extract from the valuation lists for five lots or under, which I would be, say, five lines of the valuation list. 319. Is the annual revision of valuations under 37 and 38 Vict. limited. It does not cover the whole of the country— We have to revise anything we are asked to revise by the local authorities. We have no power of initiative in the matter at all, and they pay us fixed sums amounting in all to £6,295. That amount is fixed under the Valuation (Ireland) (Amendment) Act, 1874, and the Local Government (Adaptation of Irish Enactments Act) Order, 1899, Article 37 (f). VOTE 23—ORDNANCE SURVEY.Mr. C. C. McElligott further examined.320. Chairman.—Apparently the sale of maps as set out in Subhead G— Appropriations-in-Aid—was greater than anticipated?—Yes; there was an upward trend during that year which still continues. 321. What is Stapleton’s Catechismus and Manuscript?—It is a manuscript which we have copied for the Manuscripts Commission. VOTE 41—LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND PUBLIC HEALTH.Mr. T. J. McArdle called and examined.322. Chairman.—This is the first occasion on which Mr. McArdle has appeared before us as Secretary of the Department and we should like to welcome him and congratulate him on his promotion. Mr. McArdle.—Thank you. Chairman.—There is a note by the Comptroller and Auditor-General which reads:— “Subhead J (6)—Grants towards provision of Supplemental Allowances to certain Old Age Pensioners, to certain Blind Pensioners and their dependent children and to certain recipients of Disablement Benefit under the National Health Insurance Acts and their dependent children. The scheme under which supplemental allowances are payable came into operation on 1st April, 1944, and applies to residents in areas to which the scheme of food allowances provided for in Vote No. 71 does not extend. The total recoupment to public assistance authorities in respect of the year under review will be the equivalent of 75 per cent. of the expenditure incurred by them in the payment of the supplemental allowances. With one exception, in which the full grant for the year was paid, the sums charged to the subhead, amounting to £130,074 19s. 6d., represent payments on account of grant pending the receipt of certificates from Local Government Auditors showing the amounts proper to be recouped.” Can you say if these certificates have yet been received?—Yes, and the amount paid in respect of them. 323. The full amount?—Not the full amount. It amounted to £4,352 11s. 5d. 324. Do you expect to get in the balance of the amount?—In respect of that year? 325. Yes?—That completes the payments in respect of that year—the sum of £4,352, plus the £130,074. 326. Deputy Sheldon.—The full grant was not expended?—No. 327. Chairman.—The next note by the Comptroller and Auditor-General reads:— “Extra Receipts payable to Exchequer. The expenditure on the provision of equipment for emergency cooked food centres charged to Subhead L. (3) of the Vote for Local Government and Public Health in the four years ended 31st March, 1945 amounted to £6,741 13s. 1d. During the year under review portion of this equipment was disposed of, with Department of Finance approval, at prices deemed sufficient to cover the original cost, and the amount realised, £1,318 8s. 7d., was brought to account as an exchequer extra receipt.” Can you say to whom was this property disposed of?—Some of it was disposed of to the Dublin Board of Assistance, some to the Dublin District Milk Board, and some to the Dublin Corporation. 328. Is there any still there?—There is a balance there. That is only portion of the equipment. Up to the present we have disposed of equipment to the amount of £2,926 and we have some more to dispose of yet. 329. Paragraph 35, Comptroller and Auditor-General’s Report:— “Motor Tax Account. A test examination has been applied to the Motor Tax Account with generally satisfactory results. The certificates and reports of the Local Government Auditors who examine the motor tax transactions of local authorities were scrutinised, in so far as they were available, but in seven cases this audit had not been completed at the date of my test examination. The gross proceeds of Motor Vehicle, etc., duties in 1944-45, including £8,263 9s. 1d. attributable to fines collected by the Department of Justice, amounted to £628,805 5s. 1d. This amount also includes fees amounting to £3,576 16s. 0d. received on behalf of the Commissioner of the Gárda Síochána under the Road Traffic Act (Parts VI and VII) (Fees) Regulations, 1937 (Statutory Rules and Orders, No. 92 of 1937). A statement of the gross and net receipts of the Motor Tax Account, and of the payments thereout to the Exchequer, appears on pages 6 and 7 of the Finance Accounts, 1944-45.” 330. Chairman.—Have these seven tests been applied yet?—Audits were completed in the seven outstanding cases and a certificate furnished by the Local Government auditors subsequent to the date of the test examination of the motor tax account by the Comptroller and Auditor-General. 331. I presume there has been quite an increase in the fees?—I could not say that right off. 332. Deputy Briscoe.—As to Subhead J (6) of the Vote, there seems to be a very large amount unexpended. Can you give any explanation as to how that arose? —The aplications were slow in coming in, in the first instance. Several counties were slow in getting schemes started. Some did not get started until July. One county did not get started until August and two until September in that year. 333. Does that mean that any claims established in this financial year, although the money was not actually paid over, will be met in the ensuing year?—I do not think so. 334. Chairman.—If it is not expended in that year, it does not carry over until next year?—It does not. 335. Deputy Briscoe.—I mean if, for some reason, there is delay in establishing a case for payment before the financial year ends, is not the applicant entitled to his arrears in the following year? Mr. Maher.—It would come in course of payment in the following year. 336. Chairman.—What Deputy Briscoe wishes to ask is whether if the application is made before the financial year ends, although the financial year would have expired before payment is made, they would still be entitled to payment? Mr. McArdle.—If the Committee would not object, I should like to look that up and send a written reply.* 337. Deputy Pattison.—Would some of the apparent savings here be affected by the manner in which the scheme is administered by some local authorities? I think Deputies will find that there is a difference in the manner in which the various local authorities administer the scheme. Chairman.—Can you say if there is much difference in the procedure or methods adopted as between one local authority and another?—I could not give information about that. We might have some information about it in the Department. I will look up that and send a note on that, if that is acceptable.* 338. Deputy Briscoe.—I should like to know what the general scheme is. We had a case of another Vote some years ago where the Comptroller and Auditor-General thought that moneys which had, in fact, accrued for payment in the financial year could not be carried over as a liability for that particular year. Mr. Maher.—That related to a case in which moneys other than voted moneys were concerned. In this case, we say in paragraph 33:— “With one exception, in which the full grant for the year was paid, the sums charged to the subhead, amounting to £130,074 19s. 6d., represent payments on account of grant pending the receipt of certificates from local government auditors showing the amounts proper to be recouped.” As Mr. McArdle has said, these certificates have since come in and it would be in the next financial year that payment would be made from the relevant subhead for that year, although the scheme might be in respect of the previous year, owing to the schemes not having matured, the absence of maturity being due to the fact that the certificate from the auditors had not been received. 339. Deputy Coogan.—As to Subhead J. (7)—Grants Towards the Supply of Footwear for Necessitous Children—there is a big balance unexpended. Is that due to the shortage of footwear or a drop in the demand? Mr. McArdle.—It is due to a shortage of leather following a strike in a tannery, I believe. 340. Chairman.—I think this scheme only operated towords the end of the year?—Yes, it was started late in the year. It was notified in December, 1944. 341. Deputy Briscoe.—In that particular case, certain people are entitled to a docket for which they get a pair of boots. If the boots are not available, are these dockets carried over to the following year? Deputy Sheldon.—The docket ceases one month after issue, but it may be extended. I happen to know a good deal about this. The trouble is that one authority issues the vouchers and the trader issues the boots. There is no relation between the number of vouchers in a district and the number of boots coming to that district. One depends on the number of necessitous persons and the other, first of all, depends on the quotas of the retail merchants, and (2) on their willingness to touch it at all. Deputy Briscoe.—That is the point I had in mind. When a number of vouchers are issued for boots which are needed and these boots are not forthcoming, surely the Department can take steps to see that the people will not be left without boots, after taking trouble, in the first instance, to see that they should get them. Deputy Sheldon.—I drew the Department’s attention to the fact before it was commenced that the scheme would not work. I was informed that it was done in this way at the request of the boot and shoe trade, namely, the manufacturers, who were not willing to have supplies going to people who might not have been customers previously. Deputy Briscoe.—Does your Department examine into the administration of this scheme in the sense which Deputy Sheldon has pointed out? Mr. McArdle.—Yes. The main complaint against the scheme was unsatisfactory distribution in some areas. Distribution must be effected through the normal trade channels; that is to say, each trader orders his requirements from his normal supplier. If one trader orders in excess of his requirements then another trader elsewhere must go short since the quantity of footwear is limited. A factor which contributes to excessive ordering is the difficulty in relating children of various ages to the standard trade sizes of footwear normally applicable to these ages. The attention of local authorities has been specially directed to the necessity for traders relating their purchases of official footwear strictly to their requirements. As a result of the experience gained in the first year of the scheme, local authorities were advised, in subsequent years, that constant contact should be maintained between their officers and retailers, so that if a shortage of footwear was observed in one area, voucher holders should be directed elsewhere to meet their requirements. Where this procedure is observed by local authorities, there is little difficulty experienced in exchanging vouchers for footwear. Deputy Sheldon.—I wonder who is the optimist who thought of the possibility of a retailer ordering more than he might require, considering that practically no profit is allowed. My experience of retailers is that they do not want to order them at all and a great many districts are left without the footwear because the retailers will not touch it. The trouble is that, apart from loss of profit, the retailer loses other goods. They must be taken on quota. If a retailer is allowed to buy £100 worth of footwear in a quarter from a manufacturer, and if he buys these goods, he loses other goods that he is in very great need of. Personally, I think the whole scheme was ill-founded but that is hardly the Accounting Officer’s business. Deputy Briscoe.—Perhaps Mr. McArdle could have the matter examined with a view to making it work better. It is true, and we all know cases, that people have vouchers who cannot get boots and it does seem, if they cannot get them, that the administration of this particular scheme is falling down because the primary idea is that necessitous people should get footwear. The whole idea behind this scheme is not met if the scheme is falling down owing to a variety of reasons, including those which Deputy Sheldon draws attention to.*. 342. Chairman.—Apparently, the chief difficulty here is the question of supplies from the manufacturers?—Yes. 343. In certain areas, apparently, from the note you read out, the retailers have difficulty in securing supplies?—Yes. 344. Deputy Coogan.—Is the difficulty due to the fact that if a retailer takes these boots into stock he does it at the expense of his ordinary trade quota? —I do not know anything about that. 345. Chairman.—Is that the position, or is it that the retailers themselves will not take them? According to Deputy Sheldon, the retailers are not anxious to use this scheme because of the very small profit?—I do not know. Deputy Pattison.—The only complaint I have heard is in regard to supply. I have heard no complaint as to its affecting quotas or profits. 346. Deputy Sheldon.—As a humble shoe retailer, I can assure the Committee that the question of quota comes into it. I have not heard a retailer complain about profits. The trouble is the quota. Certain manufacturers administer their quota on a money basis per annum. Some of them allocate their quota on the number of pairs. Anyone can appreciate that if you take 40 or 50 pairs of these you lose 40 or 50 pairs of other footwear. That can be very substantial. I only know of one manufacturer who insists on a certain fraction of the quota being taken in C.P. footwear?—We succeeded in getting 122,000 pairs. We expected we would be able to distribute 160,000 pairs. The difference, 38,000 pairs, is explained to us as being due to the scarcity of leather. 346A. Deputy Sheldon.—I have known people getting vouchers in Donegal and having to send to County Monaghan and County Sligo to get footwear because there were no supplies in County Donegal. Some retailers, I must admit, were not able to get as many C.P. boots as they would have liked but I think the Department would find on investigation that a great many retailers do not want to touch it at all. 347. In regard to Subhead N. (1) I observe that the wording in the Estimate is:—“Grants under the Tuberculosis Prevention (Ireland) Acts, 1908 and 1913.” This is rather misleading because neither of those Acts makes any provision for a grant from Central Funds. All the expenses under those Acts are, as laid down in the Acts, to be borne by county-at-large charges. I am not suggesting for a moment that it is intended to be misleading but I think the wording of the Estimate might be changed to make it clear just what the authority for the grants is. Neither of these Acts gives any authority for a grant. Witness.—Yes. It would be better amended to say “Grants in respect of the treatment of tuberculosis.” 348. Deputy Sheldon.—Or, if you say, “Grants to local authorities in respect of expenses incurred under those Acts,” it would be clearer? Witness.—Yes. VOTE 42—GENERAL REGISTER OFFICE.Mr. T. J. McArdle called.No questions. VOTE 44—NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.Mr. T. J. McArdle (with whom was Mr. P. S. Murray) further examined.349. Deputy Sheldon.—In regard to Subhead AA., is the actuary paid on a fee basis or is it an appointment?—He is paid according to work done. A certain actuarial job is sent to him to do and he charges, presumably on the basis of the time spent by his staff in doing the work. 350. Chairman.—Quantum meruit basis?—Yes. 351. I notice in paragraph 3 on page 134 in regard to Appropriations in Aid an item for repayment of cost of administration of Military Forces (International Arrangements) Insurance Fund. What exactly is that in respect of?—In respect of the cost of administration of the fund mainly the salaries of the staff of the National Health Insurance Branch of the Department of Local Government and Public Health who are engaged on administering that small fund. The fund was set up to deal with the insurance position of Irish residents who had been members of the British armed forces and certain persons who had been in our armed forces having previously resided in Britain. When people were discharged from the British armed forces to addresses in Ireland they were transferred to the Military Forces (International Arrangements) Insurance Fund. Subsequently, if they got work in this country, they became members of the National Health Insurance Society but a certain residue of insured persons remained in the fund and it was in effect a small approved society. It has disappeared recently, the remaining members of the fund being transferred to the National Health Insurance Society. That was done under Emergency Powers (No. 381) Order, 1946, made in June last. 352. Deputy Briscoe.—Would Mr. Murray be good enough to explain the relationship if any between item 4 of the Appropriations in Aid and Subhead I. of the Vote?—Out of the fund of the Widows’ and Orphans’ Pension Scheme the cost of administration has to be met. Subhead A. of the Vote is Salaries, Wages and Allowances, including salaries, wages and allowances of the Widows’ and Orphans’ Pensions Branch of the Office. The amount recovered under item 4 of the Appropriations in Aid is part of the amount spent under Subhead A. of the Vote. 353. Deputy Briscoe.—What is the relationship with Subhead I? Chairman.—Subhead I is supplementary payments to certain beneficiaries under the Widows’ and Orphans’ Pensions Acts, 1935 to 1940 and the item under 4 is the cost of administering Subhead I, I suppose. Deputy Briscoe.—I quite understand it now. This is the payment in connection with the whole scheme, including supplementaries. Witness.—No portion of the cost of administration of the supplementary payments under Subhead I is recovered and is consequently included in Item 4 of the Appropriations in Aid but the cost of administration of the Widows’ and Orphans’ Scheme proper is recovered. 354. Deputy Briscoe.—That would be Vote 27?—Yes. 355. Deputy Coogan.—With regard to the payment to the Exchequer of £15,000 under the National Health Insurance Act, what does that mean?—It is a surplus on the unclaimed proceeds of stamps sales account—of stamps sold by the Post Office not subsequently claimed for. Stamps may be lost by an insured person or an insured person may not surrender his cards. Because of that, there is a difference each year between the value of the stamps sold and the value of the stamps claimed by the society. That difference varies from year to year. It is usually of the order of something like £20,000. The Exchequer takes the excess, subject to a maximum of £15,000. VOTE 27—WIDOWS’ AND ORPHANS’ PENSIONS.Mr. T. J. McArdle (with whom was Mr. P. S. Murray) further examined.No question. VOTE 40—CHARITABLE DONATIONS AND BEQUESTS.Mr. W. Smyth called and examined.356. Chairman.—Does this fund tend to increase?—Yes. The average is about £30,000 a year. Sometimes, it is £45,000 for a year. In my time, it has increased by £250,000. 357. Deputy Briscoe.—How do you manage to escape with such a small sum for law costs. Is that work also done on a charitable basis?—The first reason is that the people we deal with are very obedient so that there is no necessity to prosecute them for failing to comply with the Acts. Another reason is that we deal with trustees and not with the contentious cases. A third reason is that usually we only deal with schemes in respect of which the costs are ordered to be borne out of a trust fund by the judge. The members of the Committee are aware that costs are taxed by order. 358. Deputy Briscoe.—I observe that under Subhead B a solicitor’s bill of costs was received too late for inclusion in this account?—Yes. It sometimes happens that where the costs are small a solicitor does not think it worth while to send in a bill each year. Sometimes he may not send in his bill for two years. He nearly always gets his costs out of court. The witness withdrew. VOTE 43—DUNDRUM ASYLUM.Dr. G. W. Scroope called and examined.359. Chairman.—What is the acreage of the farm at Dundrum?—About 12 acres. 360. An uneconomic holding. What is the total staff?—40 male attendants and 13 females. 361. Have you many female patients?—Eleven. 362. Deputy Coogan.—What is the rotation of duty as between day and night duty?—We have one night attendant on the female side of the house. 363. Generally, how do you work your staff as between day and night?—They are on for a month at a time. An attendant appointed on night duty is on for a month. 364. What proportion of the male attendants would be on night duty for a month?—Three. 365. And on day duty?—The average would be 15 or 16. 366. What are their hours of duty? —They are two days on and two days off. An attendant comes on at 7 o’clock in the morning and is off at 8 p.m. He is on for two days, and is free on the following two days. 367. What is the meaning of the reference here to the free gift of tobacco and cigarettes?—We get some confiscated tobacco from the customs authorities. The witness withdrew. The Committee adjourned until Thursday 21st November, 1946, at 11 a.m. |
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