Committee Reports > List of Committees > Dáil > 1946 > Committee of Public Accounts > Report - Appropriation Accounts 1944 - 1945

MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA

(Minutes of Evidence)

Déardeoin, 7ú Samhain, 1946.

Thursday, 7th November, 1946.

The Committee met at 11 a.m.

Mr. J. Maher (An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste), Mr. C. S. Almond, Mr. L. M. Fitzgerald and Mr. P. O’Kelly (An Roinn Airgeadais), called and examined.

VOTE 9—OFFICE OF PUBLIC WORKS.

Mr. J. Connolly called and examined.

Paragraph 8, Comptroller and Auditor-General’s Report:

“Insurance of Workmen.

As stated in a note to the account, sums amounting to £15,380 4s. 10d. expended in prior years on compensation, etc., in respect of claims arising out of accident risks which had been covered by policies of insurance with the Irish Employers’ Mutual Insurance Association, Limited, now in liquidation, remain charged to suspense. In addition, a sum of £6,017 4s. 0d., being portion of the premium paid for the year 1938-39, also remains charged to a suspense account pending settlement of the Commissioners’ claim against the Liquidator. Sums amounting to £1,908 18s. 0d. which would otherwise have been payable to the Association under the policies have been retained by the Commissioners as a set-off against their claim. I have been informed that further progress has been made in the liquidation proceedings since the date of my last report.”

80. Chairman.—Have you anything to add to that, Mr. Maher?

Mr. Maher.—No. The latest information I have is dated January last. I understand that the Accounting Officer may be able to supplement that with what has taken place since.

Mr. Connolly.—We have just not word this morning from Messrs. Hoey and Denning, Solicitors for the Liquidator, saying that they are now calling in the money and that up to the moment they have succeeded in getting in £8,800. That has been received by the Liquidator. They are still pressing the contributors to discharge the liabilities. They propose to move in the Court for an order enabling them to collect £5 per head. They have decided now to defer doing so until the next sitting of the Court in the hope that they will be able to collect a good deal more money from them without legs action.

81. Chairman.—What is the amount outstanding?—The total amount outstanding is £24,122. Of course we do not know how we will share in the ultimate settlement with the Liquidator. Negotiations are also proceeding, they advise us, with the underwriters for the other Insurance Policies. They are not in a position to advise us on that for the moment. The position is that we are constantly pressing the Liquidator and the Solicitors for the Liquidator to get the matter squared up as quickly as possible.

82. Deputy Briscoe.—I understand that the position is that everybody who insured through that Company originally finds himself now liable to pay £5. In many cases, these were ordinary poor people who did not know that they were entering into a liability when giving insurance to this Company and that they would now be called upon to pay £5 as a kind of underwriters. Are we to take it that the pressure on these people is due to the fact that the Office of Public Works is trying to minimise its loss? Are there other creditors?—I cannot say about the other creditors. I presume there must be other creditors. We are not aware of what their liabilities are. It is not due to any special pressure on the part of the Office of Public Works that the contributors are being pressed to pay £5 each. The £5 liability was, of course, in their policies, as it was a mutual liability company. We are not applying any special pressure. What we are trying to do is to get the liquidator to square up the matter. We have nothing to say as to what action he takes as liquidator or through the Courts.

83. Can you say what the ultimate liablity is likely to be or whether it would not be wiser to apply to have the balance written off?—Whatever we might do about writing off, I do not think we have any status as regards interfering with the Liquidator or his legal representatives.

84. I mean to the Department of Finance. It appears to me that this matter could go on for another 20 years chasing poor individuals to pay £5. Some of them are only workmen?—I agree. What I want to make clear is that we have no responsibility for any pressure on the contributors, nor have we any status to interfere one way or another in the matter.

Mr. Maher.—That is so. The winding-up of the Company, I understand, is in the hands of the Liquidator, who has full statutory powers to do what he is doing.

Mr. Connolly.—When I say we are pressing Messrs. Hoey and Denning, it is a question of pressing them to get information up-to-date so that I will be able to inform the Committee of Public Accounts.

85. Chairman.—For whom are they acting?—For the Liquidator.

86. On whose application was the Liquidator appointed—was it by agreement?—I could not tell you off-hand. The Court appointed him, I think, when the Company went into liquidation.

VOTE 10—PUBLIC WORKS AND BUILDINGS.

Mr. J. Connolly, further examined.

Paragraph 9, Comptroller and Auditor-General’s Report:

“Subhead B.—New Works, Alterations and Additions. Shannon Airport.

“The expenditure on works at the Shannon Airport up to 31st March, 1945, including the sum of £140,650 13s. 0d. charged in this account, amounted to £725,932 0s. 2d. With a view to expediting the completion of certain urgent works in connection with which the time factor was of paramount importance, proposals were approved which involved a departure from the settled procedure of open competitive tendering for major construction works at firm prices. A contract for the extension of the terminal building, which under normal contract procedure it was estimated would take 18 months to complete at a cost of £45,000, was placed on a cost plus profit basis, a contractor having been selected after competition among a small number of approved contractors. It was computed that a saving of seven months would be effected by following this procedure but that the work would cost £52,000. With the concurrence of the Department of Finance, it was agreed that the Department of Industry and Commerce would accept responsibility for all matters arising out of this contract, but that the expenditure should be borne on Vote No. 10. Public Works and Buildings, in which provision for it had been made. The work was due for completion in accordance with the terms of the contract in November, 1944, but owing to circumstances stated to be outside the contractor’s control the time for completion was extended by supplementary agreements to 31st July, 1945. The charge to this subhead in respect of expenditure incurred to 31st March, 1945, is £38,883 9s. 9d. I am in communication with the Department of Industry and Commerce regarding the certification of certain charges included in this amount.”

87. Mr. Maher.—As regards the last sentence, the Accounting Officer of the Department of Industry and Commerce has informed us that verification of the charges for work executed at his premises, which is the subject of inquiry, is made by the architect who satisfies himself by examination of the work and by inspection of the day-to-day record kept of the work that the amounts are properly payable.

88. Chairman.—Can you say why it was necessary to depart from the ordinary procedure and change over to a cost plus profit basis?

Mr. Connolly.—I should like to explain that that procedure, which was a departure from the ordinary procedure, was adopted by the Department of Industry and Commerce with the approval of the Minister for Finance. We had nothing to do with that. It was because it was a departure from the ordinary procedure that we asked that we should be relieved from the responsibility of accounting for it. Accordingly, the Accounting Officer of the Department of Industry and Commerce is responsible for that entire transaction.

Deputy Sheldon.—Will we have an opportunity, when the Department of Industry and Commerce accounts come up, of referring to the matter?

Chairman.—You will always have an opportunity.

Deputy Briscoe.—Will the Chairman permit a discussion?

89. Chairman.—Will it be set out separately in the Vote for the Department of Industry and Commerce?

Mr. Maher.—No. I understand it was considered essential for the rapid completion of certain works at the Shannon Airport to follow the course described in the paragraph and this course involved a departure from the normal procedure of inviting competitive tenders.

90. Deputy Coogan.—In the event, it did not have that effect. It had the very opposite effect. The job was to be completed in November, 1944, and they had to come along again and get an extension of time to 31st July, 1945?

Mr. Maher.—I am sure the Accounting Officer for the Department of Industry and Commerce will be able to explain that. He will be giving evidence on his own Vote.

Mr. Connolly.—I do not want to make any alibis, but we have not any responsibility for what was done on the job.

91. Chairman.—It is a matter for the Department of Industry and Commerce?

Mr. Connolly.—Entirely.

Chairman.—Then we can postpone our investigation.

92. Chairman.—Paragraph 9 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General continues:—

“Exceptional procedure was also approved for the construction of extensions to the concrete runways which were urgently required and which were estimated to cost £90,000. Contracts for portion of the work estimated to cost £71,500 were negotiated with two firms on a measurement basis at rates and prices quoted by them in tenders received a short time earlier for a similar type of work. It is understood that these contracts were completed within the time allowed and that the final cost will be within the estimate. The expenditure to 31st March, 1945, amounted to £64,994 3s. 0d. and is included in the charge to this subhead.”

Mr. Maher.—This paragraph is somewhat similar to the last one. It notes a departure from the usual procedure of inviting tenders. The reason, I understand, is similar to that of the last paragraph, the rapid completion of the work.

93. Chairman.—Has the work been completed, Mr. Connolly, since the publication of this Report?—I could not say authoritatively with regard to that I believe it has long since been completed The doing of this work was perfectly safe, because it was on a measured basis and the estimates had already been framed. It was simply a question of measuring and making a proportionate allowance for this work.

94. Deputy Coogan.—Has this procedure ever been followed before in the case of any other Government Department?—Yes, but not in such very big amounts. The pressure to get this work done was acute. On the Department of Industry and Commerce was placed the responsibility of getting the work done in a certain time. This was one of the few ways in which it could be done.

95. Deputy Briscoe.—There is a question of principle involved here. At the beginning of the emergency a somewhat similar situation arose in the Army. I would like the Comptroller and Auditor-General to tell us whether there is anything novel in this procedure.

Mr. Maher.—There is a difference. During the emergency it was mainly a matter of necessity. In this case, so far as I can ascertain, it was mainly a matter of Government policy to have the work done quickly. I think there would be that distinction. During the emergency quite a number of the contracts were for comparatively small amounts. In this case the amounts are very large.

Deputy Coogan.—We cannot investigate this matter satisfactorily until we have the other gentleman here.

Deputy Briscoe.—It is obvious Mr. Connolly has no responsibility for it. I do not know how it will come up in the Vote from the Department of Industry and Commerce, but I suggest we ought to notify the Accounting Officer so that he will not be taken unawares.

96. Chairman.—Paragraph 9 of the Comptroller and Auditor-General’s report continues:—

“A contract for the construction of a concrete apron was placed at £9,860 4s. 6d. In this instance it was not considered necessary to have Bills of Quantities exhibited with the invitation to tender and the obligation to measure the quantities rested with the tendeders. It appears that the contractor based his tender on an outline schedule of bulk quantities which had been prepared for official use and which had been shown to the tenderers for their guidance. This outline schedule did not include a small section of the work specified in the contract and valued at £342 16s 10d., and, in consequence, the contractor claimed payment for this work in addition to the amount of the contract. The Commissioners were advised that they were under no legal obligation to discharge this additional claim, but on grounds of equity the sanction of the Department of Finance was obtained for an ex-gratia payment of £171 8s. 5d., which is noted in the account.”

Mr. Maher.—It is the usual practice, when a firm price has been tendered for a specified work, to call attention to any deviations of this kind in the terms of the contract. As stated in the Report, a 50 per cent. payment was made as an ex-gratia payment.

97. Deputy Briscoe.—I am not quite clear as to what happened here. Whose responsibility is it to notify the contractors that there is a deviation? Are we to take it that because the contractor did not follow a certain line he is to be given only half payment? In fact, the position would appear to be that he is giving the Government an ex-gratia grant to the extent of half the amount set out there. Why should the contractor have to pay?

Deputy Lydon.—He tendered on a definite outline schedule of bulk quantities.

Deputy Briscoe.—The contractor tendered for a specific work. There were certain amendments and he had to do extra work. Is that not so, Mr. Connollv?—No. What happened was that the contractor tendered for a specific work. He took quantities which had been got out by the architect for his own use and he based his estimate on those quantities. The responsibility of those who were tendering was to measure the work for which they were to tender. The contractor submitted an all-in tender and that was accepted. The successful contractor estimated on a basis of figures, without measuring; in other words, he took the architect’s figures without checking them.

98. Your architect’s figures?—Yes.

99. Deputy Sheldon.—Was there no responsibility on the Department with regard to having Bills of Quantities exhibited?—This was a relatively small job and they were asked to quote for it. There were not normal Bills of Quantities and specifications got out. Anyhow, the net result was that we got £342 16s. 10d. worth of work done for £171 8s. 5d. The contractor had to bear the loss.

100. Is it fair that there should be a 50-50 responsibility for the error?— Actually the position was that the contractor was not legally entitled to anything because he quoted a firm, fixed price for the whole job.

101. Once you admit any ex-gratia payment you are getting outside your legal obligations?—The contractor was perfectly satisfied with half the amount.

Deputy Briscoe.—If the Department of Finance sanctioned an ex-gratia payment they must have had something on their conscience, so far as this gentleman was concerned.

Deputy Coogan.—Not necessarily.

Deputy Briscoe.—There is a principle involved here. I think it would be setting a new headline in business transactions if, through a genuine mistake, people are to be punished. In this case probably the contractor could afford to stand the loss. You are establishing a precedent and it might cause grievous damage to a contractor who might not be able to stand such a loss. It is obvious from what we have read and have been told that this contractor accepted your architect’s figures in good faith and in the course of his work he found the position somewhat different. I do not know the Committee’s opinion, but I do not like it.

Deputy Sheldon.—I do not think you could count on the ex-gratia payment as setting a precedent.

102. Deputy Briscoe.—The suggestion here is that the man should not be paid although he did the work. There was some misunderstanding over the contract and I submit that if the Department got the work done, they should pay for it?—We dealt with him decently and he was perfectly satisfied.

103. Chairman.—The misunderstanding was on the part of the contractor?—Yes.

104. Deputy Coogan.—Why was not a Bill of Quantities prepared the first day? —It was a matter of urgency. The schedule did not include a small portion of the work which the contractor did.

Paragraph 10 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General:—

“Urgent and Unforeseen Works.

“10. Owing to the occupation of the preparatory college premises in Galway for military purposes alternative accommodation was provided for the staff and students of the preparatory college in St. Patrick’s Training College, Dublin. Expenditure amounting to £919 15s. 2d. was authorised for adaptations at the latter building and the transfer of furniture, etc., to Dublin. As shown in the statement appended to the account, expenditure amounting to £553 8s. 8d. was incurred in the year. No rent was paid to the college authorities for the use of the training college, but fuel and light were provided free of charge by the Office of Public Works for that portion of the premises still occupied by the training college staffs. The cost of this service is included in the charge to Subhead F—Fuel, light, water, cleaning, etc.”

105. Mr. Maher.—As the Department of Defence occupied the preparatory college premises free of rent, I thought it desirable to show, for the information of the Committee, the additional charges falling on public funds arising from the need to provide alternative accommodation for the staff and students in Dublin.

106. Chairman.—How much did this charge amount to?

Mr. Maher.—It is dealt with on page 43 of the Appropriation Accounts.

Chairman.—On page 43, under the heading “Department of Education” there is this note:

“Coláiste Éinde, Galway. Adaptations and transfer of furniture consecequent on provision of accommodation at St. Patrick’s Training College, Dublin. Authorised expenditure, £919 15s. 2d.”

107. Deputy Briscoe.—There is a charge for the supply of fuel, light, water and cleaning, but that amount is not specified.

Mr. Maher.—We have to take that from Subhead F.

108. Deputy Briscoe.—We do not know whether it was a good bargain or not?

Chairman.—Have you any figures, Mr. Connolly?—I can give you the figures for fuel, water and electricity from our records of expenditure connected with the transaction of Coláiste Éinde’s transfer to St. Patrick’s Training College and the occupancy of the premises. Adaptations cost £317 8s. 5d.; the transfer cost £560 15s. 2d. During occupancy coal and turf amounted to £1,043; water charges, £41; electricity, £126 18s. 5d. It must be remembered that there would have been set-off charges if the college had been in occupation in Galway.

109. Deputy Briscoe.—Are we to take it, apart from the other charges specified in connection with the transfer, that there was a charge of, roughly, £1,200 under the heading of fuel, light, water and cleaning?—That is the figure I have on it, but there would be these overhead charges which would occur if they had been in Galway—to a greater or less degree.

110. Maybe I am approaching this from a wrong point of view, but from the note of the Comptroller and Auditor-General no rent was paid to the college authorities for the use of the training college?—That is so.

111. And as a quid pro quo the Department gave them certain facilities such as fuel, light, water and cleaning?— Yes. Fuel and light were provided; we did not take any responsibility for the cleaning.

112. Fuel came to something like £1,043 and the light to £126, making approximately £1,200. How many years would that cover?—I could not say definitely. I would prefer to prepare a note on that and I will send it to the Committee.

113. It is really for the purpose of showing what the amount was as far as State payments are concerned?—It was not for St. Patrick’s College that the fuel and light were supplied. There were only two or three residents of the St. Patrick’s Training College staff there at the time. It was for the Coláiste Éinde staff and students temporarily resident in St. Patrick’s Training College that we provided these services. I would like to make it clear that the fuel and light and all the services would have been necessary in Coláiste Éinde. Having been transferred to St. Patrick’s, the same services had to be supplied there.

114. Deputy Moran.—What portion of that £919 15s. 2d. was devoted to adaptations and what portion to transfer of furniture?—Transfer of furniture accounted for the major portion.

115.* Chairman.—At your convenience, perhaps you would send us a note on this

116. Chairman.—Paragraph 11 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General deals with Subhead L (Appropriations-in-Aid) and is as follows:—

“Statements showing the results of tillage operations at the Phœnix Park, the Bourn Vincent Memorial Park and the Shannon Airport have been furnished to me. The full yields of the cereal and root crops sown in the Phœnix Park and at the Shannon Airport during the 1944 season were sold and the proceeds, amounting to £1,439 12s. 4d. and £741 2s. 5d., respectively, have been credited to this subhead. The greater portion of the produce of the Bourn Vincent Memorial Park, estimated at £2,660, was retained for feeding and seeding purposes, the amount credited to this subhead in respect of sales being £245 7s. 11d.

I am in communication with the Accounting Officer regarding receipts from grazing lettings for the 1944 season.”

Has the Comptroller and Auditor-General anything to add to that note?

Mr. Maher.—Yes. As regards the grazing lettings, inquiries were made in connection with the rents in the Phœnix Park which had not been brought to the credit of the Vote. Since then, I have been informed that a new system of control has been put into operation this year in order to tighten up the conditions under which cattle might be removed and to prevent, so far as it is possible, defalcations arising out of the collection of the rents.

117. Deputy Moran.—Is the grazing let by public auction?

Chairman.—It is let on a per head basis—so much per beast.

Deputy Moran.—Is it open to tender?

Mr. Connolly.—It is open to anybody to send in cattle up to a certain number. There is a fixed scale of charges for animals scaled according to age.

118. Chairman.—It is a question of “first come, first served”?—We generally have room to accommodate anybody who applies and it is the same people who usually apply. I do not think that we have ever had to turn down an application.

119. Deputy Moran.—If you were to let the grazing by tender, would it not be more satisfactory and economic and avoid those losses in connection with the collection of rent?—We do let some portions of the land by tender but we also allow people to bring in cattle for grazing for a certain period.

120. If you were to let all the land by tender, you would avoid losing money by this method of collection?—We are not losing money.

121. Deputy Sheldon.—It is not likely that anybody would take 1,700 acres of grazing?—We do let the portions that can be let in that way—the fenced portions.

122. Chairman.—How much do the defalcations amount to?—I understand that, this year, we have got in all our money. On the 1st November, we had collected all the money due this year.

123. Chairman.—The defalcations then occurred in 1944?—I have not the exact figures but the accountant tells me that they amounted to about £48.

124. What was the total amount received for the grazing?—I have not that figure with me but I shall send it to you.*

125. Deputy Sheldon.—I notice that a certain amount is retained for feeding purposes at the Bourn Vincent Memorial Park. What is fed there, if all the land is let?—I have discovered now that the total amount received in respect of the Phœnix Park was £1,996 but I think that that includes more than grazing. I should rather send you the exact figure.

126. Deputy Coogan.—Could you give us any idea of the cost of tilling?—In the Phoenix Park and the Bourn Vincent Memorial Park?

Deputy Coogan.—Yes.

Chairman.—I have figures here in connection with farming operations on the Bourn Vincent Memorial Park in 1944. The figures are as follows: labour in cultivating and harvesting £781 1s. 3d.; artificials (lime), £150 5s. 0d.; hire of thresher, £41 8s. 10d.; sundry miscellaneous supplies, freight, etc., £105 19s. 3d. In addition, there was cost in connection with seed wheat, seed oats, straw, seed beet, seed potatoes, seed mangolds and seed hay. The total cost of production was £1,303 8s. 7d. The estimated value of the yield was £2,659 11s. 8d. It was necessary to purchase seeds to the value of £47 14s. 6d—seed wheat, £15 1s. 0d.; seed oats, £4 17s. 6d. and seed potatoes, £27 16s. 0d.—the remainder being seed off the farm from previous years.

127. Deputy Sheldon.—There is nothing about feeding there.

Deputy Moran.—It shows a profit at all events.

Chairman.—It is an estimated profit.

Mr. Connolly.—We feed a great deal of our stuff to our livestock and we produced butter, milk and cream.

128. Chairman.—You have a sort of farm?

Mr. Connolly.—We keep the Kerry herd for the Department of Agriculture. We have to maintain this herd and get as much out of it as we can in the way of butter, milk and cream. The sales of butter amounted to £53 13s. 7d.; milk, £428 1s. 11d.; cream, £252 8s. 0d.; total, £734 3s. 6d.; crops, £266 8s. 11d; live stock, £1,240 10s. 11d. These are the figures for the farm and dairies and it is mainly in connection with the Kerry herd that feeding takes place.

129. Deputy Briscoe.—You do not keep separate farm accounts?—Yes. It is from the farm account I am now reading.

130. Deputy Moran.—Are those profits included in the figures we have just got?—They are in the total returns.

131. Chairman.—The figures we have here refer to tillage and do not refer to the cattle or the milk. Do the farm accounts show a profit as distinct from the tillage?—The excess of receipts over expenditure on the farm account, specifically, is £206 6s. 0d. That is the cash credit on the farm account.

132. Does that allow for rates and annuities?—There is no allowance for rates or annuities. Wages and purchases are included but no overhead charges.

133. Deputy Moran.—How much land is involved in this business in which you show an excess of £200?—It would be very hard to say. The amount of arable land in Muckross is very limited—200 or 300 acres is actually farmed.

134. Deputy Briscoe.—The Bourn Vincent Memorial Park is the biggest item in this transaction. That is a comparatively recent acquisition. It is only ten or eleven years since the State took it over. It might be a good idea to keep a special farm account, because this matter is becoming somewhat involved for us as between the Board of Works and the Department of Agriculture and their herd of cattle.

135. —Chairman.—On page 26, Item No. 7, there is the following note: “Bourn Vincent Memorial Park—Fishing, £408 12s. 8d.; rough shooting, £100; deerstalking, £25.” You do not take that into the farm accounts?—No. That comes into rents and fines.

136. Deputy Lydon.—Do you do anything with the mountain land; do you keep any sheep?—Yes. We are developing the sheep business very largely and it is showing a substantial profit.

137. You sell off the rams to local people?—We do, but we also buy some each year.

138. Deputy Moran.—Would it be possible to get some detailed particulars of the income and costings in respect of these lands?—If you refer to No. 5 in the notes, you will see that sales of farm and garden produce realised £6,617 15s. 11d.; the Bourn Vincent Memorial Park is credited with £2,643 19s. 2d.

Deputy Briscoe.—It is, apparently, a profitable institution at the moment. In fairness to the Board of Works, who have the responsibility of management, a special account should be shown. I recommend the Board of Works to regard this as a special institution and to keep everything that concerns it in the way of accountancy separately.

139. Deputy Moran.—I do not think that we have sufficient figures before us to decide whether the methods adopted in connection with these lands by the Board are right or wrong. There appears to be, nominally, a profit of £204. I do not know whether that is a profit or not on the data before us. That is on 300 acres of land. It might be more advisable to let some of the lands that have been tilled or there might be some way of saving money in connection with the matter. I should like to have more detailed particulars of the costings in connection with the tilling of these lands and the running of the lands generally.—I mentioned 300 acres but I should not like that to be taken as all the land that is used by the farm. I would have to get details of the amount of tillage that is done.

Deputy Coogan.—I suggest that we would have to have something more than a farm account. We want an estate account, including the farm account—the whole account?—I can give you the figures for the whole estate. In other words, you want a detailed balance sheet of the Bourn Vincent Memorial park in addition to the separate accounts for the farm. There is a good deal of overlapping in the work of the farm and the Estate as a whole*

140. Chairman.—As far as it is possible to separate them, you could do so?— Naturally, if we have no farm work for a man, we use him on the estate. The maintenance of the estate is a big job.

Deputy Moran.—I realise that, but on the figures before us I think we would want more information. I am not suggesting there is anything wrong, but I should like to have more information.

141. Chairman.—How much do you charge for admission to the Bourn Vincent Memorial Park?—One shilling and then there are tolls at Tore and at Gearhameen. There is a proposal for the revision of the charges of admission or for the abolition. We put that to the proper department.

142. Chairman.—The next paragraph of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General is 12:—

“Rents Receivable.

“Arrears of rents due to the Commissioners on 31st March, 1945, amounted to £4331 19s. 7d. compared with £4,442 10s. 3d. on 31st March, 1944. From statements furnished to me with the appropriation account it appears that of these arrears sums amounting to £2,568 have been recovered subsequent to 31st March, 1945, and £53 was considered bad or doubtful.

The Committee of Public Accounts in paragraph 3 of its report on the appropriation accounts for 1936-37 expressed a wish to be informed in due course of the progress made towards the compilation of complete registers and rentals of all State lands and buildings by the Departments charged with their administration and of the arrangements for the perambulation of State properties. In reply to an inquiry regarding lands and buildings administered by the Commissioners I have been informed that the compilation of registers and rentals was commenced in 1939 on an experimental basis, that in the light of the experience thus gained staff proposals were made which have only recently been fully implemented, and that with the limited staff available the compilation of the rental has progressed as rapidly as possible. Completion of the special survey maps which are a prerequisite of the detailed perambulations will, it is thought, take a considerable time. In the meantime, comprehensive lists of properties have been prepared and arrangements are being made for the systematic perambulation of all properties, whether surveyed or not, in as full a manner as circumstances permit.”

Mr. Maher.—The purpose of this is to show the progress made towards the completion of the registers and the arrangements made for the perambulations of State properties.

Mr. Connolly.—There has been very considerable progress made. We have a survey completed in four counties—Louth, Clare, Roscommon and Waterford and two-thirds completed in Offaly. Perambulation of all the properties in the other 22 counties will take place from the 1st January.

With regard to arrears, the arrears as shown there were reduced to £642. That is the latest position on those particular arrears.

143. Chairman.—Do you expect to reduce it further?—Oh, yes. We anticipate getting back all but £150 which we reckon is bad. The 31st March is the date on which we close our books. A very considerable amount of that comes in almost immediately afterwards.

144. Deputy Coogan.—When may we expect the register to be finally completed?—Do you mean the full register?

145. Yes?—I should not like to promise that before four or five years. It is a very big job.

146. Chairman.—Paragraph 13 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General is as follows:—

“Stores.

“The question of suitable arrangements for the control of surplus or salvaged articles accumulated at district workshops has been under examination for some time. In response to a recent inquiry as to the progress made I was informed that a survey of the various workshops, which it was hoped to complete at an early date, had been undertaken. Decisions regarding articles to be disposed of and to be retained to meet future needs await the result of this survey.”

Has the survey been completed yet?—It has, and a very considerable amount of stuff has been disposed of—surplus stores and stores that we were not likely to use again, and scrap. We sold over £6,000 worth of such stores this year.

147. Deputy Moran.—How were the sales arranged?—By public auction.

148. Chairman.—We will now deal with the Vote, on page 23.

Deputy Briscoe.—In regard to subhead C—Maintenance and Supplies—could the Accounting Officer state how the excess arose?—Do you mean could I get you details?

149. Deputy Briscoe.—No. The grant was £212,000. Expenditure was £247,318.

Chairman.—I think there is an explanation on page 25:—“This subhead consists of a large number of provisions for requirements which are partly dependent on circumstances which cannot be accurately forecast. The excess was the net result of savings and excesses on these various items.”

150. Deputy Lydon.—In regard to Subhead J. 4—Arterial Drainage—Purchase of Machinery—no money has been expended?—No. Unfortunately, we cannot get machinery. Two machines are about to be delivered but we find it practically impossible to get machinery from the other side or from America.

151. Deputy Briscoe.—I understand the difficulty is in getting export licences from the other side?—The Government in Britain is controlling production. They are making very large quantities of machinery for mining and land development generally and for dock work.

152. Will there be any chance of trying to get this machinery from America?—We have been investigating that and the position seems to be as bad there as in Britain.

153. Deputy Moran.—Can I find out whether under any of these subheads is included rents in respect of Gárda Barracks? I see that under subhead E— Rents, Rates, etc.—the grant was £100,000.

Chairman.—Deputy Moran wants to know does that include rents of Gárda Barracks?—It does.

154. Deputy Moran.—I do not know whether this is a matter for this Committee or not but there is this very large sum of £95,000 expended and I am sure a high percentage of it is expended in respect of rents for premises occupied as Gárda Barracks throughout the country. It has occurred to me that it would be much more economical for the Board of Works to erect such buildings themselves or even to purchase them?—I could not say right off what our total rentals in respect of Gárda Stations amount to at the moment but I know that it does not represent anything like a substantial percentage of that figure. I entirely agree that it would be very desirable to have our own Gárda Stations built and owned by the State and we are pursuing that policy as well as we can now. Unfortunately, most of the Barracks were rented and some of them are rather poor buildings. Of course, at present it is very difficult to get sites and the cost of building is very high but the general policy is, where possible and where conditions are favourable, to built new stations.

155. Could you tell us roughly what in the main constitutes the £95,000—in respect of what type of premises is it made up?—There is a very big proportion of it, of course, for rented premises in Dublin for office accommodation and there are offices all through the country— investigation offices, customs and excise offices and all sorts of offices under Government Departments.

156. Deputy M. E. Dockrell.—Some of it would be ground rents?—Yes, a proportion of it. I do not think it would be appreciable. It would be relatively a small amount.

157. Chairman.—You cannot say the amount represented by rents for Gárda Barracks?—I can get the figure and send it to you if you wish but of course we have thousands of items in rentals.*

Chairman.—No, I do not require that.

158. Deputy Pattison.—May I inquire if it is part of the scheme for the future to provide suitable buildings? I am thinking of Kilkenny where there are all kinds of make-shift offices around the city. There is not one decent Government building in that city and the general opinion is that there should be a suitable building to house Industry and Commerce, Revenue and so on. I should like to know if it is intended sometime in the future to provide a building?—It is our intention to do that and I may say that Kilkenny has been one of our worst problems in trying to get sites or facilities.

159. Deputy Lydon.—In regard to Subhead J.7 I see a note to the effect that the surveys undertaken during the year were less extensive than expected. What is the reason for not having these surveys undertaken seeing that the money has been voted by the Oireachtas?

160. Chairman.—Could you say what is the cause of the delay in carrying out surveys under the Arterial Drainage Act?—I do not know that there has been any special delay. We have carried out the survey for the Brosna. We have done the Glyde and Dee. We are on the Maine and we are doing several of the smaller areas in the Maine district. Our engineers are on the survey. The Brosna has been completed. The Glyde and Dee have been completed but it takes some time after the survey has been made to do all your planning and to get maps out.

161. Deputy Sheldon.—The year of account referred to a very early stage under the Arterial Drainage Act?—As a matter of fact that reference was to the time before the Drainage Act came into operation when we were, in anticipation, working on the surveys.

162. Deputy Coogan.—Can the witness say when the survey of the Nore catchment area is likely to be undertaken?—I could not make any definite commitment on that because the order of priority will not rest with us.

163. With whom will it rest?—With the Government, I presume.

Deputy Moran.—The same goes for the River Moy, I take it?

164. Deputy Coogan.—I take it it will be the next century before we get anything done on the Nore?—I hope not.

165. Deputy Briscoe.—On page 37 you will notice there are very big items of expenditure—Nos. 101, 102 and 103. How are charges made to the non-Irish concerns who use these airports?—That is a matter for Industry and Commerce. We know nothing about that.

166. These are purely constructional expenditures?—Yes.

167. So that we will have to discuss that with Industry and Commerce?—As regards the administration of the ports, the Board of Works have nothing whatever to do with it.

VOTE 11—HAULBOWLINE DOCKYARD.

Mr. J. Connolly, further examined.

168. Chairman.—I have here a minute from the Department of Finance to the Public Accounts Committee:—

“I am directed by the Minister for Finance to state, for the information of the Committee of Public Accounts, that it is proposed to drop the separate Estimate for Haulbowline Dockyard (No. 11) as from 1947-48 and to provide for the service in the Estimate for Public Works and Buildings (No. 10).

“The position of Haulbowline Island is not different from that of any other State property and, as each subhead of the existing Estimate has a counterpart in that for Public Works and Buildings, it will be possible to show the expenditure under each subhead distinctly on the face of Estimate No. 10 and thus maintain continuity of presentation.”

169. Deputy Sheldon.—In regard to Subhead D., there is a note that the provision to meet payments of rates was not required. How did that arise?—It arose over a case that was tested in the courts. It was decided that we were not liable for rates in Haulbowline.

VOTE 67—EMPLOYMENT AND EMERGENCY SCHEMES.

Mr. E. J. MacLaughlin called and examined.

170. Chairman.—There is a note by the Comptroller and Auditor General, as follows:—

“79. Provision is made under subheads F. (Urban Employment Schemes) and G. (Rural Employment Schemes) for grants towards expenditure by local authorities on schemes for the provision of employment. The grants are paid in instalments, during the progress of the various works, by the Department of Local Government and Public Health acting on behalf of the Special Employment Schemes Office. Accounts of the expenditure are examined by Local Government Auditors who certify that the conditions specified have been fulfilled and their certificates are furnished to me in support of the charges to the Vote.

Under subheads H. and I. provision illmade for minor employment schemes in rural areas and for schemes for ill development designed to encourage ill production of turf by private individuals. These schemes are administered by the Special Employment ill Office, and, in general, they are ill out on its behalf by county engineers, who receive imprests from the Vote which are subsequently accounted for in detail.

The schemes for which provision is made under subheads K. (Farm Improvements Scheme), L. (Seed Distribution Scheme) and M. (Lime Distribution Scheme) are administered by the Department of Agriculture acting on behalf of the Special Employment Schemes Office. The charge to subhead K. includes grants to farmers for the improvement of their holdings, together with administrative expenses in connection therewith and with the schemes for the distribution of seed and lime, direct expenditure on which is charged to subheads L. and M. respectively. Provision was made for the payment, subject to certain conditions, of grants equivalent to one-half of the approved estimated cost of the labour required for improvement works carried out, the maximum grant payable to any one applicant under any seasonal scheme being £100 and the minimum grant £5, except in congested districts where the minimum grant was £1. The grants paid amounted to £327,350 9s. 8d.. made up as follows:—

The administrative expenses referred to above, amounting to £66,166 6s. 11d., account for the remainder of the charge to subhead K.”

Have you anything to add to that, Mr. Maher?

Mr. Maher.—No, that paragraph has been inserted mainly for information.

171. Deputy Briscoe.—It shows that the administrative expenses came to about 20 per cent. of the total?

Chairman.—Can you say if that is so, Mr. MacLaughlin?—Yes, these are charges for overseers and administrative expenses at headquarters in the Department of Agriculture in connection with the Farm Improvements Scheme.

172. Deputy Briscoe.—Does it not appear a very high percentage of the amount, where it is given for employment and emergency schemes? It takes 20 per cent. to administer?—It seems high at first sight, but inspection is costly as the individual grants are very small, relatively speaking. There is a very large number and the average grant is not more than £10. In each case there must be three inspections: first, to make an estimate; secondly, to get the work started; and, thirdly, before the final certificate for payment is given. That means a great deal of work in relation to small expenditure, in small detailed schemes. I think that is the principal reason why the administrative expenses appear so high.

173. Deputy Sheldon.—This refers only to the Farm Improvements Scheme and has nothing to do with employment?— No, it includes the lime distribution and seeds schemes also.

174. Deputy Briscoe.—Has the Accounting Officer any idea of the cost of administering the local government schemes of a similar type? Do the administrative charges compare? These appear to be very high.

175. Chairman.—In the local government schemes, there would not be the same number of inspections?—Not in proportion to the expenditure. The local authorities’ schemes are carried out by their own staffs, as part and parcel of their ordinary work.

176. Deputy Moran.—What is the lime scheme you have mentioned?—It is a scheme administered by the Department of Agriculture, in connection with their reclamation scheme. Where the land requires lime after reclamation, it is provided.

177. Deputy Moran.—The lime scheme, as we know it, is administered through the county committees of agriculture and its cost of administration is borne by the county committees. Is this lime scheme dealing solely with land reclamation?— Yes, it is really a corollary to the farm improvement scheme and is intended to make the land reclamation fully effective.

178. Chairman.—This is separate from the lime schemes arranged by the county committees of agriculture?—Yes.

Mr. Maher.—I understand that the scheme was confined to the congested districts and to areas of north-west Cavan.

179. Chairman.—There is a further note by the Comptroller and Auditor General, as follows:—

“Subhead N.—Rural Improvements Scheme.

80. The scheme for which provision is made under this subhead is administered by the Special Employment Schemes Office through the agency of the county engineers. Grants are made towards the cost of works, for the joint benefit of groups of two or more farmers, consisting of accommodation roads to houses, farms and bogs, small drainage works (excluding field drains), roads which connect two county roads, and the erection or reconstruction of small bridges. Only works which are estimated to cost not less than £40 are considered. In ordinary cases State grants of 75 per cent. of the estimated cost, excluding county engineers’ fees, are approved, the balance being contributed by the beneficiaries. Local cash contributions are usually collected but contributions in kind either of materials or labour are also considered; in addition, the contributors or members of their families may be employed on the works, thus recouping themselves at least a portion of their cash contributions. The expenditure during the year on approved works amounted to £66,628 10s. 3d., against which has been credited £16,816 12s. 1d. in respect of local contributions, the balance amounting to £49,811 18s. 2d. being charged to this subhead.”

Deputy Sheldon.—It says that “in ordinary cases State grants of 75 per cent. of the estimated cost, excluding county engineers’ fees, are approved.” On the figures given, the State grants amount to roughly 66 per cent.? I assume also that the expenditure given includes the county engineers’ fees?—Yes.

180. Deputy Sheldon.—That would mean that the ratio of local contributions to the State grant is actually even more in favour of the State than 34 to 66?—The explanation of that is that the local contribution is collected, for very obvious reasons, before the work begins and part of expenditure is brought to charge before the expenditure is actually completed.

181. Deputy Moran.—What portion of this amount would refer to the administration of the scheme?

Chairman.—Can you say the cost of the administration of this scheme?—The fees paid to the county engineers in respect of the supervision of the work amount to 4 1/6 to 6 per cent. on the expenditure. The administration expenses at headquarters are part and parcel of the general expenses of the Special Employment Schemes Office and it would be very difficult to segregate them.

182. Deputy Moran.—We take it that this percentage refers to county surveyors. Under what arrangement do they become entitled to 4 1/6 per cent. on this particular scheme?—It started with the Employment Schemes Vote, in 1932. Before that, the Land Commission had been administering these minor employment schemes for the relief of unemployment and distress. At the time, the Land Commission found they could not do their own work and this work together, so it was decided it should be taken over by the Office of Public Works. The Office of Public Works had no suitable staff and, after a good deal of deliberation, it was decided that the best way to get the schemes done would be to avail of the services of the county engineers, as they had their assistant surveyors in the same districts on their own work. That was thought best and is, in point of fact, the most economical way. The fee paid to the county engineers includes not only their own remuneration but the fees paid to their assistant engineers and also the clerical expenses in the preparation of wages sheets and vouchers.

183. Deputy Moran.—That is the point on which I want information. Does the 4 per cent. cover the total cost to local authorities of the administration of this particular scheme? I do not know whether I am right or wrong, but I have the feeling that local authorities are paying for part of the administration of this scheme? —I have no knowledge of that.

184. Can you say whether the 4 1/6 per cent. covers, in addition to the various engineers, the work of local authorities’ staffs in dealing with these schemes?— Yes, it is intended to do so, when such staffs are employed on our own work.

185. Deputy Sheldon.—Is it paid to the local authority or direct to the engineer? —The local authority does not come into this at all. The county engineer is employed by us as agent inspector and the county council has nothing to do with these minor employment schemes and rural improvement schemes, except that we got their permission, for the county engineers to act for us.

186. In fact, then, it is a fee to the engineers for work done, although they are whole-time officers?—That is so; presumably our work is done in their spare time. We have had letters from county engineers saying they were working until 12 o’clock at night and 2 o’clock in the morning on our schemes, and I must say in most cases, they are extremely reluctant to undertake them at all.

187. Deputy Lydon.—Is 4 1/6 per cent. not high for work they do in that way?— That includes making up wages sheets and vouchers.

188. Deputy Briscoe.—Do they act as clerks of works?—Yes.

189. Deputy Lydon.—Do they make out the certificates, pay the money and pay the assistants themselves?—Yes.

190. Chairman.—Can you say, in connection with these schemes, if the farmer whose land is suffering because of the lack of drainage, can avail of them?—A single farmer can always avail himself of the Farm Improvements Scheme administered by the Department of Agriculture.

191. Deputy Moran.—Under the rural improvements scheme it is laid down that they are entitled by law to 75 per cent.? —Not by law but by a decision of the Government.

192. Chairman.—The State grant is 75 per cent.?—Yes.

193. Deputy Moran.—In actual fact, is it not so that they are contributing in their 25 per cent. to portion of the cost of the administration of the scheme?— No.

194. So that no portion of the cost of administration comes into the 25 per cent. subscribed by them?—No.

195. Deputy Sheldon.—What is the difference between a rural employment scheme under Subhead G. and a minor employment scheme under Subhead H.?— The nature of the work is the same. The employment scheme, as the name indicates, is carried out in the district where there are unemployed men available to do work as judged by the unemployment assistance register. As you know, in the West of Ireland a very large number of unemployed persons draw unemployment assistance during the winter time. These employment schemes are carried out in these areas. The other scheme, the rural improvement scheme, is carried out in the eastern part of the country generally, where there is very little rural unemployment.

196. I am speaking of the schemes under Subhead G. and Subhead H. There is a reference to rural employment schemes and to minor employment schemes?—Rural employment schemes are carried out by the local authorities on their own roads. They are done through the agency of local authorities on works that are maintainable by the local authorities, such as county roads.

197. Everybody knows that there are a great many schemes which need to be done but which cannot be done as a minor employment scheme because there is not the correct percentage of unemployed in a particular area. Does that apply to rural employment schemes under Subhead G?—It does. The two schemes, so far as the relief of unemployment is concerned, are worked jointly.

198. So that I take it the application comes on the one hand from a local authority and in the other case from individuals?—Yes. In some areas we might not have applications for minor employment schemes and might have to take a rural employment scheme instead.

199. Deputy Moran.—As regards the rural improvements schemes where all the money has been expended in connection with them, it would appear that there is sometimes great delay before a number of the schemes can be inspected owing, it would appear, to the scarcity of inspectors. That would seem to be the case in the West. I would like to know whether you have sufficient money to employ more inspectors so that that delay would not take place?—In the year under consideration the scheme was just under way. It was started the year before and, of course, it is very difficult to judge the requirements of a new scheme of that kind. At present, the position is that while we have authority to employ the necessary number of inspectors there is delay in filling posts. It necessarily takes a considerable time to get men in through the selection board procedure of the Civil Service Commission. It is also true that the post is not a very attractive one from the engineering point of view. Our inspectors are inclined to leave very quickly. They do not find it a very good post from the point of view of experience for other engineering jobs. The result is that we have always been short of one or two men.

200. Chairman.—We can now turn to Subhead O.—Miscellaneous Schemes— paragraph 81, on which the Comptroller and Auditor General has the following note:—

“81. A grant amounting to £4,066, subject to local contributions of £1,800, was sanctioned for the repair and improvement of about 4 miles of road required in connection with mineral development. The county engineer estimated that the work could be carried out by normal employment schemes methods at a cost of £5,830, but it was decided, with the approval of the Department of Finance, that unskilled labour for the work should be supplied, without repayment, by the Army Construction Corps. The expenditure to the 31st March, 1945, as certified by the Local Government Auditor amounted to £5,478 7s. 2d., of which £3,383 was met out of State grant, including £2,856 charged in this account. In addition, as shown in notes to the account and to the account of the vote for the year ended 31st March, 1944, the value of the services rendered without repayment, by the Army Construction Corps amounted to £29,554 10s. 5d. It is understood that the work continued during the year 1945-46.”

Apparently this was a rather expensive method?—Yes.

201. Is the work completed yet?—Yes. That part of the work for which this grant was made is completed. Other work has been started in the district, but not with the Construction Corps I understand.

202. Deputy Sheldon.—How much did the four miles of road cost in the end?— There is an expenditure of something like £12,000 for the year subsequent to the one we are dealing with. We made a grant of about £700 for this subsequent year.

203. That is for work originally estimated to cost £5,000?—Apparently.

204. The note before us says that “£3,383 was met out of State grant, including £2,856 charged on this account.” Where did the odd £500 come from?—That would be carried forward to the subsequent year.

205. In the notes on page 238 there is mention of a couple of specific grants made for the construction of bog roads for the private producers of turf. I am wondering why that is specially mentioned because under the rural improvement scheme, and even under the minor employment scheme, bog roads take precedence. Why are the two references here singled out?—These are rather different cases. One was carried out at Glencullen where the turf produced was for industrial use—for factories.

206. Deputy Lydon.—Under Subhead J. there is expenditure for the reconditioning or repair of public roads subject to heavy turf transport. Would expenditure of that sort apply to urban roads?—No, it refers to county roads that lead from the bogs to towns—to highways over which there is unusual traffic on account of turf production.

207. Would an urban authority be eligible for a grant of this sort?—Yes, if it could be shown that the streets were subject to unusual traffic of this sort.

It would be of interest to some places of that could be done.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 32—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR JUSTICE.

Mr. S. A. Roche called and examined.

208. Deputy Coogan.—May I ask when may the work of revising the rules of the Supreme Court, the High Court and the District Court be expected to be put in hands?

Mr. Roche.—I think that we will have the rules of the District Court within three months or so. In the case of the Supreme and High Court, I do not expect them for another six months at least. It depends on what time the Judges and the other members can find for committee work.

VOTE 33—GARDA SIOCHANA.

Mr. S. A. Roche further examined.

209. Chairman.—The Comptroller and Auditor General has the following notes to this Vote:—

“Subhead A.—Salaries, Wages and Pay.

29. The scales of pay of members of the Force as set out in part III of the estimate were increased by the Gárda Síochána Pay Order, 1945 (Statutory Rules and Orders, No. 25 of 1945), with effect as from the 1st January, 1945, resulting in expenditure of £29,175 11s. 6d. in excess of the amount provided under this subhead. This excess has been met out of savings on other subheads. The revised rates of pay are set out in part III of the estimate for the year 1945-46.”

“Subhead O.—Local Security Force: Expenses.

Subhead P.—Local Security Force: Capitation Grants (Grant-in-Aid).

30. A capitation grant of £1 a year in respect of every active member of the Force is provided for under subhead P. and in accordance with departmental arrangements the grants would normally have been payable in the month of January in respect of most of the members. It was decided, however, to suspend the activities of the Force as from the 8th January, 1945, but to maintain the staff organisation. In conseqeunce, the payment of capitation grant ceased with a resulting saving of £49,667 5s. 0d., out of the sum of £64,000 provided in the subhead.

With reference to the clothing and equipment for which provision is made under subhead O., I understand that it has been decided to permit the members of the Force to retain certain articles which have been on issue to them, and that the question of disposal of unissued stocks and articles surrendered is under consideration.”

Deputy Coogan.—As regards the staff organisation of the L.S.F., is that being continued?—No.

210. The staff organisation is gone?— Yes.

211. Deputy Coogan.—Arising out of Subhead H.—Transport and Carriage— would it be possible to segregate the cost of transport for the performance of police duties proper from the cost of transport set aside for the private use of Ministers and the escort of Ministers?—Yes.

212. You have not the figures at the moment?—No. They can be found in a statement supplied in reply to a Parliamentary Question on that subject about a year ago. Details were given as to the number of cars used, the quantity of petrol, etc.

213. Deputy Moran.—What does Subhead M.—Compensation—cover?—This subhead covers (1), compensation to members of the Force for private property maliciously damaged and destroyed and (2), compensation to members of the public, etc., for damage and injury resulting from accidents in which Gárda Síochána vehicles are involved. In addition, the Gárda Síochána Compensation Act, 1941-45 provided for the grant out of public moneys of compensation to dependents and partial dependents of members of the Gárda Síochána who died on or after the 1st January, 1940, through injuries maliciously inflicted on them in the course of, or in relation to, the performance of their duties, and to members of the Forces injured while on duty in similar circumstances. The third item is the most important. It is largely compensation provided in anticipation, so far as one can anticipate fatal or other injuries of the kind I have mentioned.

214. Deputy Moran.—You have not many of these claims now?—Fortunately not, but a few years ago there was a number of them. The figures go back a number of years.

215. Deputy Sheldon.—On page 106, there is a reference to the Gárda Síochána Reward Fund. What is the source of income of that fund?—The income is derived (a) disciplinary fines imposed on members of the Gárda Síochána and (b) some fines and penalties awarded by any judges and justices which are payable by way of reward to the Gárda Síochána and (c) certain fees are payable to members of the Gárda for acting, ex-fficio, as inspectors of weights and measures. The last is far the biggest source of income.

Deputy Sheldon.—It is satisfactory to know that these fees go to something useful.

216. Deputy Briscoe.—Is there any item in this to cover moneys sent in by members of the public in appreciation of services rendered by members of the Force in regard to life saving, etc.?—I understand that we do get some small income in that way but I cannot say that I have ever personally observed such an item.

217. Deputy Briscoe.—Members of the Gárda are not supposed to accept any award offered to them by members of the public but there are some people on occasions who believe that they should express their appreciation of the efforts of individual members of the Gárda by sending in some small gifts which they wish to have transferred to the Benevolent Fund of the Force.

VOTE 34—PRISONS.

Mr. S. A. Roche further examined.

218. Chairman.—The Comptroller and Auditor General has the following note in connection with this Vote.

“31. The statement of the manufacturing and farm accounts appended to the Appropriation Account has been examined and local tests examinations of the conversion books and other records dealing with manufacturing operations have been carried out, with satisfactory results.”

Deputy Briscoe.—Has the Comptroller and Auditor General ever examined the machinery and plant in some of these prisons with a view to seeing whether, in fact, some of them should not be scrapped and new machinery installed?

Mr. Maher.—That is a technician’s job.

Mr. Roche.—They are inspected. In some cases the machinery is, in fact, old-fashioned but, if I may say so, it does not matter very much because the main object of the prison industries is to keep the prisoners occupied rather than to make profits and if you install a new modern machine that would work twice as quickly, it might not be entirely a blessing.

219. Deputy Briscoe.—The prisons are supplied with materials by certain State Departments for the making of certain articles, for instance mail bags?—Quite so.

220. These bags have to be put into service outside and it might be desirable to ascertain if you could not turn out a better bag?—Yes, if you could make a better one. We get this material from the Post Office but, from the purely administrative angle, this is a typical case where what we really want is plenty of simple, easy work.

Deputy Briscoe.—As long as the Accounting Officer is satisfied we are satisfied.

221. Chairman.—There has been no loss of letters out of these bags?—No.

222. Deputy Moran.—Under Subhead M. there has been an expenditure of £9,980 in respect of the maintenance of criminal lunatics in district mental hospitals. Have you any idea of the number of these patients in district mental hospitals?—I have a full note here on the facts of this system and with the permission of the Committee I shall hand it in and have it printed as an appendix to my evidence.*

223. Perhaps, Mr. Chairman, when Mr. Roche is doing that, he might also indicate the per capita cost and show whether the Department is charged the ordinary per capita cost in the different institutions which varies considerably in the different counties?—That will be shown in the Appendix. In the year under review there were 146 persons so maintained and the cost appears to be just short of £10,000.

It seems to be an extraordinary amount considering that, to my knowledge, the approximate per capita cost of maintenance in the institution in Mayo is about £26 10s. 0d.?—I have the rate per head charged in the different institutions. In Castlebar Mental Hospital, the institution mentioned by the Deputy, the charge is £68 14s. 3d. per head.

224. That is since the war I take it?— Yes.

225. Could it not be arranged that these people would be sent to the institutions with the lowest per capita cost?

Chairman.—Is there not some regulation that a prisoner must be detained in the locality in which he is to be charged?—Yes, at least in the place ascertained according to law. My note will explain this point.

226. In regard to Subhead N.— Gratuities to Prisoners—can you say under what circumstances gratuities are payable? Is it in cases where a prisoner has been convicted in the wrong?—No. As a routine matter every prisoner is credited with some little sum in respect of his work in the prison. We are in fact thinking of increasing these payments. It makes the prisoner feel that he loses something by bad conduct.

227. Deputy Sheldon.—The note in regard to the Appropriations in Aid states that the contracts received from the Department of Posts and Telegraphs for the manufacture of mail bags were not as large as anticipated. Was that due to shortage of material forwarded by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs? There is no question that the prisons could have produced more?—It was due to shortage of material.

VOTE 35—DISTRICT COURT.

Mr. S. A. Roche further examined.

228. Chairman.—While it is not strictly relevant to the year under review, can you say, Mr. Roche, if the District Court area in County Dublin has been recently revised and whether as a result of that, the Justice is sitting more frequently in any court area in Dublin county?—Yes. As from the 1st January, 1946, the Dublin Metropolitan District was extended so as to take in a little portion of the adjoining District, District No. 12, and thereby help the Justice in that District to get through his work more expeditiously. But that was not enough. In addition we are now putting on a regular auxiliary Justice in order to keep the business in No. 12 up to date. No. 12 is District Justice Reddin’s District, covering almost all County Dublin as well as portion of County Kildare.

229. Chairman.—He is sitting apparently every fortnight now in most districts?—Yes. The auxiliary Justice has relieved him altogether of some of his Courts so that he can sit more often in the others.

230. Is that due to an increase in crime or to increased litigation?—The District is a heavy one and in recent years a number of cases were kept hanging on too long. We are not reducing the size of the District but we are getting another Justice to assist the ordinary Justice so as to keep the business up to date.

231. Deputy Moran.—Does the provision under this Vote cover District Court clerks?—It does.

232. There are some of these still non-pensionable?—There was a question recently asked in the Dáil on that subject. In fact it has been asked many times. The crux of the matter is that pension ability is based on whole-time service. That is an absolute law, a law of the Medes and Persians. The great majority of District Court clerks are not whole-time.

233. Deputy Lydon.—Is it the policy to make District Court clerks in future fulltime?—We should like to make them whole-time if we could, so that they would have a greater stake in their job but when you get a village at the end of a peninsula running twenty miles into the sea, there is sometimes no use in telling the people there, who have some court business, that there is a whole-time clerk living thirty miles away in the nearest large town. We are forced in these circumstances to have local people who have very little to do, are paid very little, and are not pensionable.

234. Do you pay any portion of the staff of the District Court clerks?—We pay all the District Court clerks.

235. Have they any assistants?—Yes. In the case of Cork City, for instance, there is a Chief Clerk and two or three assistant clerks. In other cases, so much is allowed—£100 or £80 for example—for part-time assistance.

236. Deputy Coogan.—Is it not the position that certain District Court clerks are prohibited by law from engaging in other occupations?—There are some particular occupations forbidden to them; they must not be in the legal profession or in the licensed trade but in general those who are not full-time are free to have some other means of living; many of them could not live on their salaries.

237. Chairman.—They could not be solicitors clerks, I suppose?—No.

238. Deputy Moran.—At all events, it is proposed to introduce a Bill changing that law of the Medes and Persians referred to by Mr. Roche?

Mr. Roche.—I do not think so. I am afraid that the Department of Finance would be shocked by the suggestion.

Deputy Moran.—They will certainly be shocked one of these days.

VOTE 36—CIRCUIT COURT.

Mr. S. A. Roche further examined.

Chairman.—There is a note by the Comptroller and Auditor General, No. 32 on page XV., which reads

“Subhead F.—Losses.

The amount charged to this subhead was required to make good sums which had been lost in previous years through misappropriation of public moneys and funds in court. One of these losses is referred to in a note to the Appropriation Accounts for the year 1934-35, and particulars of the remaining three were given in the Reports on the Accounts for the years 1936-37, 1937-38 and 1940-41, respectively. Legal proceedings were taken against the officials responsible for the defalcations except in one case in which the individual concerned was not apprehended.”

239. Deputy Coogan.—Were many persons involved in these proceedings?— Without trying to be absolutely precise about it, I think there were about five cases. This is a rather unusual subhead and perhaps I should say a few words about it. What happened was that most of these embezzlements—four out of the five—were by court messengers who went out to execute decrees for Land Commission arrears and who put the money in their pockets. We were in this dilemma, that the Land Commission had not got the money it ought to have got, and, on the other hand, the party concerned had paid the money and could not be asked to pay again. This situation lasted a few years during which the Land Commission was kept out of its money. We then decided that it had to end some time, so we went to the Dáil and put all our cards on the table, got the money and paid it to the Land Commission.

240. Deputy Moran.—Would it not be advisable to have a similar provision in the case of these officials as there is with regard to rate collectors—a bond being provided by an insurance company to cover such potential losses?—The general attitude is—the Department of Finance representatives will confirm me in this— that the State accepts its own insurance risks. I do not myself think it is worth while, on the whole, to insist on getting bonds from people like court messengers, employed on small wages and liable to sudden change. I feel that on the whole we are doing just as well as we are.

241. Is this an unusual figure?—Yes; as I explained it is the accumulation of mishaps over four or five years.

242. Mr. Coogan.—Is the Department satisfied that the fees paid to court messengers, summons servers and so on, are sufficient to induce the right type of person to come along for this work?— That is a very difficult question. We pay a man £3 a week as a court messenger, people may say that if we paid £6 we would get a better type, and so we would, of course.

243. Deputy Coogan.—How are summons-servers paid?—Summons-servers are paid by fees taken from the people who employ them. In addition we pay them a retaining fee of £20 a year.

243a. Deputy Coogan.—You are aware of the position obtaining in certain parts of the country where it is almost impossible to get men on that basis to do the work?—That is so. We had serious trouble in the matter. It is not so much because of the small money but because people do not want the job anyhow. They do not like it.

Chairman.—From historical causes.

Deputy Coogan.—Old traditions die hard.

244. Deputy Moran.—With regard to Subhead E.—Under Sheriffs—how does this expenditure arise?—It is the remains of the old under-sheriff system. There used to be a separate under-sheriff in every county but the position is being amalgamated with the position of county registrar as the jobs fall in and there are now left only three of the old under sheriffs—in Tipperary, Cork and County Dublin, as well as one new office—the sheriff for the County Borough created by an Act passed last year.

245. Formerly, these sheriffs’ fees were collected by the sheriff. They were calculated by them on the distance from the place where the sheriff in a particular county resided to that in which he made his seizure. I should like to know whether this system is continued under the county registrars and, if so, what becomes of these fees?—The system is continued. There is a scale of fees for the execution of court orders and it is the same whether a man is the county registrar whom we pay or the under sheriff making his own profit. In the case of the under sheriff, he simply pockets the fees and in the case of the county registrar the fees are paid into the Exchequer and amount to a very large sum each year.

246. I could never quite understand the system by which the sheriff calculated what he called the milage from his residence to the place where he made the seizure. The county registrars have inherited this system under the new order and I want to know whether county registrars, who often live in towns altogether away from their office, calculate their fees from their centre or from their residence and if the Department collects them on that basis?—The distance is measured from the office, the county registrar himself hardly ever goes out. The work is done by his men and the office is their centre.

247. I should like you to keep this point in mind, too. We know that, in practice, the county registrar has his messengers in different parts of the county and in a county like mine there might be 50 or 60 miles between one of the county registrar’s men and another. It appears to me very unfair that the unfortunate man whose property is being seized has to pay for theoretical travelling expenses from Castlebar to Belmullet, a distance of 90 miles, whereas the messenger lives within 10 miles of Belmullet?—It does not matter in the long run whether you operate from one fixed point or another because if you measure from a central point the defaulter at the extreme edge of the county will say: “It is very hard lines that I should be stuck for £5 travelling expenses,” but if you have court messengers living at the extreme edge of the county, the defaulter in the centre will say: “It is very hard lines that I should be stuck.” You cannot place your men so that you will not have long journeys and you must pay for the long journey somehow. The present system seems to be as fair as any other. We measure from a central point and say: “It is just your bad luck if you live at a distance from that point.”

248. I can assure you that it is very bad luck in my county?—Well, I have often heard during the last 20 years about the hardship it is that a person who owes the Land Commission £5 or £6 should finally have to pay £12. But there is a good answer, that is, why did he not pay the original amount? He is warned by the Land Commission solicitor and again by the county registrar? He refuses to do anything, and finally men have to go out and collect his goods and all that means expense which somebody must pay and the defaulter is the obvious person as it is his fault.

249. Yes, but invariably he did not adopt that attitude for the purpose of making a present of £10 to the sheriff. In most cases it is due to economic necessity?—If he has not got the money, nobody can take it off him; if he has got it then he should pay it at the right time.

VOTE 37—SUPREME COURT AND HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE.

Mr. S. A. Roche further examined.

250. Deputy Moran.—This covers the expenses of the Supreme Court and the High Court of Justice?—Yes, but not, of course, the salaries of the Judges, which are charged to the Central Fund.

VOTE 38—LAND REGISTRY AND REGISTRY OF DEEDS.

Mr. S. A. Roche further examined.

251. Chairman.—Are there any complaints about delays in the Land Registry?—About a year ago we got really up to date. We had an increase in staff and we worked off the arrears and things were going very well. Since then the Land Commission have started at work again vesting new holdings, with the end of the emergency, and the time is coming when we shall probably have to get more staff, if we want to keep up to date with the work, as we do.

252. Deputy Moran.—Are the fees collected credited in this account?—No, because they are not an appropriation in aid. They are collected by way of stamps.

253. Chairman.—Where will they be shown?—In the Finance accounts. In the Estimates also we show, as a note, the receipts anticipated each year.

253a. Deputy Moran.—Can you tell us off-hand what is the increase in the amount of these fees, due to the recent increase?—They are more than doubled— from about £20,000 to something over £40,000.

Witness withdrew.

VOTE 45—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION.

Micheál Breathnach called and examined.

254. Chairman.—How is the Advisory Committee for the preparation of Irish vocabularies composed?—It is composed of the Chief Inspector of Secondary Schools, the Chief Editor of Publications, the Publications Officer, and a few others. There has not been a meeting recently. There used to be outsiders who were specialists along certain lines. When preparing a medical vocabulary they had doctors, and when preparing a scientific one they had specialists in physics and chemistry.

VOTE 46—PRIMARY EDUCATION.

Micheál Breathnach further examined.

Paragraph 36, Comptroller and Auditor-General’s report:—

“Subhead A (1).—Training Colleges.

In my report on the accounts for the previous year reference was made to the reduction, with a view to alleviating unemployment among National School teachers, in the number of students admitted to training. With the same object it was decided to close down temporarily the principal training college for men. No additional pupils were admitted in the school year 1943-44 and the college was closed during the school year 1944-45. Though it is not under State management, the sole function of the college is to train teachers to meet the needs of the Department, and most of the income is derived from voted moneys. It was decided to retain the services of the trained teaching staff, and in view of the expenditure involved in this decision and in the maintenance of the college during the period it was closed, the approval of the Department of Finance was obtained for payment of that part of the annual grant which is determined by reference to the number of students for which the college is licensed, the licensed number being fixed at 120 for the school year 1944-45. The total payments to this college in the year under review, including £200 in respect of ground rent, amounted to £8,663 6s. 9d.”

Paragraph 37, Comptroller and Auditor-General’s Report:—

“Subhead A (3).—Preparatory Colleges, etc.

The average boarding cost per head for the school year 1944-45 ranged from 11s. 1d. to 15s. 10d. per week, showing decreases in four and increases in two of the colleges as compared with the previous year.

The average fee paid by the students for the same school year was £14 16s. 7d.

Accounts have been furnished to me showing the receipts and expenditure for the school year 1944-45 in connection with the farms and gardens attached to four of the colleges. Receipts exceeded expenditure in each case.

The major portion of the premises of one of the preparatory colleges had been used for military purposes since 1942, free of rent, and in the year under review the Department of Defence found it necessary to take over the entire premises. Alternative accommodation for the college was made available in a training college for teachers, reference to the closing of which is contained in paragraph 36 of this report. Expenditure arising out of the military occupation of the preparatory college premises includes payments to the staff of the college of removal expenses and subsistence allowances, which are charged to this subhead, and the cost of removing furniture and of adapting the training college premises for preparatory college purposes, which is borne on Vote No. 10, Public Works and Buildings, and which is referred to in paragraph 10 of this report.”

Paragraph 38, Comptroller and Auditor-General’s Report:—

“Subhead E.—Appropriations-in-Aid.

Unemployment insurance contributions amounting to £116 6s. 4d were paid during the years 1937 to 1944 in respect of certain employees of preparatory colleges who, it was subsequently ascertaind, were not insurable under the provisions of the Unemployment Insurance Acts. In accordance with the Unemployment Insurance Regulations which limit refunds in such cases to three years’ contributions, a refund was obtained of £42 5s. 6d. of which £20 0s. 6d. was repaid to the employees concerned and £22 5s. 0d. brought to credit of this subhead. The unrecovered balance of £74 0s. 10d. includes £39 1s. 1d. in respect of employers’ contributions, which was charged to the votes of previous years.

A considerable quantity of equipment which had been in use in a training college became surplus to the requirements of the Department on the closing of the college in 1921. During recent years some of this equipment has been disposed of by sale, and some has been transferred without repayment to other Government Departments. Notes have been appended to the appropriation accounts of this and previous years giving particulars of a number of these transfers. I have made inquiries regarding the general arrangements for the disposal of this equipment, and the verification of the residual stocks.”

255. Chairman.—Can you say what was the result?

Mr. Maher.—I think the Accounting Officer will be able to bring information very much up to date, because the information I have is nine months old.

256. Witness.—The inventory of the residue is actually being made and, when it has been completed, the information will be given to the Comptroller and Auditor-General.

Mr. Maher.—The residual stock has not been verified yet?

Witness.—That is what is being done.

257. Deputy Sheldon.—With regard to the first part of the paragraph, the question of unemployment insurance contributions, it strikes me as rather hard on the employees that they have to bear the loss of the unrecovered balance?—It was refunded to them.

258. The whole amount was refunded to them?—Only for a certain period.

259. “The unrecovered balance of £74 0s. 10d. includes £39 1s. 1d. in respect of employers’ contributions.” I suppose the balance is in respect of employees’ contributions. It says that the employers’ contribution was charged to Votes of previous years. Were the employees fully reimbursed by the Department?—Of course the refund is only obtainable within three years of the date of claim.

260. When the Department take wrongfully from the employees certain contributions over a number of years, should they not, in equity, refund the entire amount to the employees?—I do not know if I am expected to pronounce on the equity of it. What happened is that they were not reimbursed in full, because we were not reimbursed either by the Department of Industry and Commerce.

261. There is a distinction with a very big difference between the Department and the employees. Would it not be worth while seeking the consent of the Department of Finance in order to be a little more generous in the matter?—We have not done that so far.

262. Chairman.—Now that the good idea has been put into your head you might consider it?—We will consider it.

Paragraph 39, Comptroller and Auditor-General’s Report:—

“The Michael Joseph McEnery Memorial Scholarship Fund.

During the year under review a sum of £1,500 was donated to the Minister for Education for the purpose of founding a scholarship in memory of the late Michael Joseph McEnery, the scholarship to be confined, in accordance with the conditions attaching to the donation, to the pupils of certain County Limerick schools. An account of this fund is appended to the appropriation account in accordance with the direction of the Department of Finance.”

263. Chairman.—As there is no question on that paragraph, we shall take the Vote itself.

264. Deputy Pattison.—As to C (5).— Free Grants of School Requisites—how is that scheme operating throughout the country generally?—These grants are only given to newly-built or considerably enlarged schools. The first grant is given free in proportion to the attendance, and it varies from £4 for an average of 50 to £19 for an average of 800. It can now be extended pro rata.

265. Deputy Sheldon.—After that the teacher has to bear the cost, or, presumably, the manager?—The manager.

266. In effect, the teacher in many cases?—Of course, if he is foolish enough.

267. Would there be any question of equipment which might affect the standard of teaching so that it is almost a form of blackmail on the teacher to provide the equipment?—What kind of equipment have you in mind?

268. I am not speaking with any special knowledge. There might be, say, wall maps or pictures?—This free grant covers wall maps and blackboards.

269. Not replacement?—Not for ever. That would be a charge on the manager.

270. The point I want to make is that bad equipment of that type might affect the teacher’s efficiency. Therefore the teacher might feel compelled, if the manager was not willing, to go to this expense himself?—It is the duty of the manager to do it.

271. Does the inspector take any notice of the equipment which he thinks will be required?—He does and he makes recommendations accordingly.

272. The recommendation is given to the manager?—Yes.

273. Deputy Pattison.—It stops there then?—Not always.

274. As far as the Department is concerned it stops there?—The Department continues to press every time an inspector visits the school.

275. Deputy Sheldon.—Nothing would be held against the teacher for failure to take notice of the recommendation?—No.

276. Deputy Pattison.—In the operation of the free school-books scheme, what actually is the position? I have had some queries from some of my constituents, men with small wages and big families. They feel the children should get the benefit of this scheme?—

Free school books are given to every child enrolled in the second and higher classes. The grant is 8d. for all enrolled in those classes but it may be raised at the Minister’s discretion to 1/4 in the Gaeltacht and the Breac-Ghaeltacht and in the cities where the children are regarded as necessitous. The manager selects the pupils who are to benefit. If there are no needy children, there will be no grant. The estimate at first was £16,000 and then £9,000 and it is falling. The teachers keep records and the inspector carries out a check. The pupils keep the books during the vacation but give them back at the end of June. The demand is fairly high in some schools; it is 71 per cent. in the Christian Brothers’ Schools and 58 in the convents. It is low in Connaught— 40 per cent.; in Munster it is 45 per cent.; it is 50 per cent. in Ulster and 41 per cent. in Leinster. It depends on the manager.

277. What is the position in the city of Kilkenny?—I have not the statistics with regard to Kilkenny.

278. It is mainly from that area that I have had the inquiries?—If the children are needy they get the books. It depends on the manager and the teachers. The manager selects the pupils who are to benefit.

279. Deputy Lydon.—You mentioned 40 per cent. for Connaught?—Yes, apparently they have plenty of money in Connaught.

Deputy Pattison.—From various sources.

VOTE 47—SECONDARY EDUCATION.

Micheál Breathnach further examined.

280. Chairman.—Paragraph 40 of the Comptroller and Auditor-General reads:— “Subhead B (1).—Publications in Irish.

The rules relating to the payment of incremental salary were amended with effect as from 1st April, 1944, to admit of monthly payments of salary, and, accordingly, monthly advances were made in the year under review to all teachers who claimed the benefit of this concession. Previously salary had been paid quarterly.

The increments payable to secondary teachers are determined by reference to the number of years of approved teaching service. It was noted in one case that the teacher had been paid increments which appeared to be in excess of the number to which he was entitled under the rules, and I am in communication with the Accounting Officer on the matter.”

Mr. Maher.—As a result of that an overpayment was made amounting to £129 15s. 0d. The Accounting Officer was informed and I understand the amount has been recovered.

281. Chairman.—Is that the position? —The sum has been recovered. The mistake arose through taking into account service given before he was 21 years. He was credited with two years before he was 21. He has refunded the amount.

VOTE 48—TECHNICAL INSTRUCTION.

Micheál Breathnach further examined.

282. Deputy Sheldon.—There was a falling off in the instruction in subjects under Subhead E.—Grants for Drawing and Manual Instrucation in Miscellaneous Schools. Has that falling off continued, or has there been an improvement?— These are small grants given under special regulations to a number of industrial schools. It is a survival from the time when all grants were really attendance grants. The need for it is disappearing and the number of schools sharing it is growing less. That does not mean that practical subjects are lessening in the schools. They are taken in the ordinary way now. This was an old idea—small attendance grants of 2d. an hour.

VOTE 49—SCIENCE AND ART.

Micheál Breathnach further examined.

283. Chairman.—Paragraph 41 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General reads—

“Subhead B (1).—Publications in Irish.

41. It was observed that a number of works, acquired in connection with the scheme for the preparation and publication of translations and original works in Irish, for which fees to authors and translators were paid in 1931 and subsequent years, have not yet been published, and also that a relatively large stock of books published in the earlier years of the scheme remains unsold. I have inquired whether any decisions have yet been taken on these matters.”

Has a decision been taken yet about publications in Irish?—We have a certain number of manuscripts which have been paid for and which have not been published and the reason for that is this: In the early days it was thought that a general supply of Irish books might create a demand. It was remarkable, of course, that there was a very small number of Irish books available at the time. If you went to a public library you saw one shabby little shelf, or perhaps half a shelf of Irish books, while the rest of the place was taken up with books in English. The policy at one time was to produce a good supply in the hope that it would create a demand, and for some time commissions for translations were accepted fairly generously in the hope that we could supply a variety of reading in Irish for the reading public, and for another reason also. The Irish language had been allowed to grow rusty through not being applied to modern ways of thinking and modern modes of expression and it was hoped by having a good deal of translations that the language would be exercised, so to speak, and brought to bear on subjects that, on account of the way it had been obscured, it had not dealt with previously. A very distinct advantage has been gained in that way. In spite of the fact that we have not been able to publish some of the books and that a good deal that have been published are still unsold, there is still that gain, that the language has been set to work on subjects it had not been working on before and in that way its application has been considerably widened. We are preparing some of the manuscripts that we accepted and paid for, without immediately publishing them, so that they can be sent to the printer gradually— those that we consider really worth it. There is still a matter of some 17 translations that we are in doubt about. As a matter of fact, we have nearly decided not to publish them and we may ask Finance sanction soon not to proceed with at least one dozen of them. There are a whole lot of works, pieces of music, and we hope that we will be able to lessen the number of these considerably. There were 94 originally and we have sent to the printers 41 books of music and four pieces of music, so we have considerably reduced the number that remain on the shelves. With regard to the surplus stocks of unsold books, the reason for the accumulation of that surplus was that originally, in the early days of An Gúm, 3,000 copies used to be printed, but since 1931 we print only 1,000 copies. On account of printing 3,000 originally we had a big accumulation of unsold books and we have reduced that number by reducing the prices of certain books and circularising schools and inviting applications from booksellers. We have been negotiating with a body in Cork, Gaedhealachas Teoranta, and they may purchase some of the books for sale under their own auspices in Cork.

284. Deputy Sheldon.—As regards the Grants-in-Aid, it struck me the purchase of books, etc., for the National Library this year ran very close to the margin of expenditure allowed. If there were books where it would be useful and desirable to purchase, there would be no difficulty about securing them, even though the money for the year was almost exhausted? —It would have to be done by way of Supplementary Estimate.

285. —Allowing for the delay in getting a Supplementary Estimate through, may I take it that valuable works would not be allowed to go out of our grasp—there would no likelihood of valuable works getting out of our grasp through delay?— No, the valuable works the Library would purchase would hardly be likely to get out of our grasp. Most of the purchases would be modern books and they would not be likely to disappear from the market in a hurry.

286. There would be no financial difficulty?—No.

VOTE 50—REFORMATORY AND INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS.

Micheál Breathnach further examined.

287. Chairman.—Paragraph 42 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General reads:—

“Subhead B.—Industrial Schools.

42. Capitation grant, which had hitherto been restricted to the number of children for which schools were certified, was paid as from 1st July, 1944, in respect of the number of committed children under detention up to the limits of the accommodation provided in the schools, the increased charge having been provided for by supplementary estimate. For administrative convenience, the quarterly payment of grant is now determined by reference to the number of children detained on the last day of the preceding quarter instead of being calculated on a day to day basis, but it is not anticipated that this change in the method of assessment will affect the charge to the subhead to any appreciable extent.

As stated in part III of the estimate, provision is made under this subhead for the payment of a reduced grant of five shillings per week for children under six years of age. As from 1st July, 1944, this rate was increased with the approval of the Department of Finance to seven shillings and sixpence per week, the normal rate payable in respect of children over six years of age. The grants payable by local authorities were similarly increased with effect as from 1st October, 1944, in accordance with the Children Act, 1941 (Section 21) Regulations, 1944 (Statutory Rules and Orders, No. 260 of 1944).”

288. Deputy Sheldon.—On Subhead B. —Industrial Schools—what does the Department’s inspection of industrial schools consist of—is it confined solely to the educational side?—No. We have really three types of inspection. We have inspection of the educational side, then we have medical inspection and then an inspection of the general running of the place. The gentleman who is in charge of that branch is an inspector and he is empowered to inspect the general administration and arrangement of the place at any time. Then we have a special medical inspection and the primary school inspection look after the educational side.

289. Are they compelled to keep a punishment book?—Yes.

290. And that is inspected?—By all the inspectors who visit their schools.

291. Deputy Lydon.—Has any improvement been made as regards releasing industrial school-boys in large centres to the local schools?—That holds in certain cases but it is not done generally. In a number of places, it would not be convenient. It would be inconvenient unless the local school was very near or unless it was under the control of the same community, as it sometimes is.

292. In large centres, is there any possibility of a visiting committee being appointed—a committee composed of local people—which would provide some contact between the boys and girls of the industrial schools and the general public?— It has not been done, so far.

293. I think, that it would be most desirable?—With what object—securing appointments for them?

294. No. My opinion is that a pupil in an industrial school finds himself isolated from the surrounding public to a great extent. A local visiting committee, interested in that type of work, could find ways and means whereby the pupils would be brought more in contact with the public through sports and games, for instance?—I do not think that there is any restriction so far as games are concerned. I think that the pupils of those schools do have contact with the public in connection with games. Some of them also have bands which go out to public functions.

295. The bands which go out do not see much of the public?—It is not easy to arrange that sort of thing in institutions where you must have fairly strict internal discipline. Nothing has been done along those lines, so far.

296. As regards the ordinary work carried out by the boys—farm work and so forth—is that inspected as regards conditions of employment, hours, etc.?— Yes.

297. The hours are not in excess of those under the ordinary Conditions of Employment Act, which applies to, ordinary individuals?—They are very rigidly inspected from that point of view. The interest of the pupils is paramount with the inspectors. They ensure, so far as possible, that the conditions will be reasonable.

298. Deputy Pattison.—I suppose it is a matter for each school whether or not the pupils are allowed to go outside the grounds. In most cases, they are marched out in processional order and marched back again. I know of one case in which the experiment has been tried of allowing them out in pairs?—That is a matter of internal discipline.

299. It is a matter for each school?— Yes. We should not think it wise to interfere very much so far as that is concerned.

300. I thought that the Department might have some interest in it. It is working fairly well in this particular school. The girls are allowed to go out in twos and threes?—If it is working well, it is because the authorities of the school, because of their experience, were convinced that the experiment would have a chance of success.

301. But these are not selected pupils? —The authorities of the school might know, from their experience, that they could make that experiment with success but that might not be applicable to all schools.

302. Deputy Lydon.—Do you get many complaints about industrial schools?— Very few.

303. Deputy Lydon.—It is very hard to get information about them.

VOTE 70—DUBLIN INSTITUTE FOR ADVANCED STUDIES.

Micheál Breathnach further examined.

304. Chairman.—You merely pay over the money here?—That is, more or less, the case.

305. Do the appointments to positions on the staff fall within your province at all?—The Minister has to sanction appointments to the staff.

306. Are the appointments made through the Appointments Commission or are they advertised?—No. There are, of course, several classes of post—senior professors, professors and assistants.

307. What is the position as regards professorship and assistantships?—They are not advertised nor do they go to the Appointments Commission. They are made by the Council of the Institute. The number of persons who would be eligible for appointments in that institution would be very small. There would be no sense in advertising them. The Council of the Institute includes a number of men who are university professors and the persons who would be interested would be mostly university men. When appointments would come to be made, those university professors would know perfectly well on what supply they could draw for the filling of the position. The number is, almost invariably, very small.

308. While that is so, is it not rather an unusual method of appointment— neither to advertise the appointments nor refer them to the Appointments Commission?—In an institution of that kind, I do not think that it is.

309. Deputy Sheldon.—The universities advertise vacant professorships?— The matter in this case is regulated by statute. Under the statute, “every appointment to a position … on the academic staff of a Constituent School shall be made by the Council on the request of the governing body of such Constituent School and no such appointment shall be made by the Council otherwise than in accordance with such request.”

309a. Chairman.—That does not prohibit them from advertising?—No, but they would not gain anything by advertising. They know those who are available and sometimes it is very hard to get suitable persons.

310. I appreciate that they have a very limited field upon which to draw but it seems peculiar that they do not afford to those who might apply an apportunity of so doing?—I should say that all those who might apply are afforded an opportunity of doing so. I am sure the professors on the Boards and on the Council would intimate to the probable candidates in the universities the fact that appointments were available.

311. Deputy Lydon.—I think that notice is posted on the notice boards of the universities?—The appointments are advertised, to a certain extent, in the universities but I thought that the Chairman was referring to advertisements in the public Press.

312. Chairman.—It was to Press advertisements I was referring. The notice board is, probably, a form of advertisement but it is confined to the intellectuals?—Naturally, in a highly intellectual institution.

The witness withdrew.

The Committee adjourned.

* See Appendix IV.

* See Appendix IV.

* See Appendix IV.

* See Appendix IV.

* See Appendix V.