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MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA(Minutes of Evidence)Déardaoin, 21ú Samhain, 1946.Thursday, 21st November, 1946.The Committee sat at 11 a.m.
DEPUTY COSGRAVE in the chair. Mr. J. Maher (An tArd Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste), Mr. C. S. Almond, Mr. L. M. Fitzgerald and Mr. F. T. McHenry (An Roinn Airgeadais), called and examined.VOTE 65—EXTERNAL AFFAIRS.Mr. F. H. Boland called and examined.368. Chairman.—I notice, under Subhead B. (6)—Losses, etc.—there is a sum in respect of a loss at the Berlin Legation. Can you say if any claim has been submitted for the loss there?—No claim has been submitted yet and it has not yet been found possible to find ground on which a claim could be based. 369. Does that loss apply to the furniture?—That applies to the furniture which was our property, as well as to the stationery and the consular stamps and the other office equipment. 370. How does the difficulty arise in deciding how a claim should be made? —From the advice we have had, it arises under International law. It has not been possible to find, in the established rules, any firm ground upon which a claim for compensation could be based. 371. Deputy Sheldon.—I see that there are some additional losses, not charged to the subhead, mentioned in the notes. Where would they be charged, then? Do they appear in this account?—They would be charged to the Office of Public Works, probably. Do you mean the furniture? 372. It is mentioned in the notes:— “In addition to the losses charged under Subhead B. (6), there was a loss” in respect of other matters?—They would be charged to the Office of Public Works; they would supply the furniture, etc. 373. Chairman.—On page 234 of the Appropriation Accounts, I notice, under the heading of “Notes,” that we supplied 200 copies of “Peace and War.” Who is the author of that?—It is a publication of the collected speeches of the Taoiseach on our position in relation to the war and some speeches he made at Geneva. 374. It is not an official publication? —It is not. 375. There were also 254 copies of the Draft Constitution. Were these requested by people abroad, or were they sent?—There were asked for by the offices in the United States; they asked for the final text of the Constitution, but as at that time the war was on, the final text of the Constitution was not available in a cheap form and, as we had on hand a supply of copies of the Draft Constitution in the same text as the final text, we supplied those. VOTE 66—LEAGUE OF NATIONS.Mr. F. H. Boland further examined.376. Chairman.—The League has now ceased to exist?—Yes, it has come formally to an end. 377. So we may take it further payments will not arise?—A payment has been voted for the current financial year, but we are waiting to see to what sum we are entitled under the final distribution of the League’s assets. 378. Have we any officials at the League at the moment?—No. The witness withdrew. VOTE 55—INDUSTRY AND COMMERCE.Mr. J. Leydon called and examined.379. Chairman.—There is a note by the Comptroller and Auditor-General in connection with this Vote:— “Minerals Development. 46. The charge of £12,171 0s. 9d. to Subhead K.1. represents advances made under Section 9 of the Slievardagh Coalfield Development Act, 1941, to Comhlucht Gual-Láthrach Shliabh Ardachadh, Teoranta, bringing the total of such advances at 31st March, 1945, to £80,122 0s. 9d. The Minister for Industry and Commerce, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, agreed, pursuant to Sections 10(2) and 11(3) of the Act, to the further postponement to 1st January, 1946, of the payment of interest on the advances and of the repayment of the instalments of advances which fell due on the 1st July, 1944, and 1st January, 1945. In accordance with Section 10(3) and 11(4) of the Act, the company became liable for interest on the deferred payments and the Minister for Finance has directed that this interest should also be paid on 1st January, 1946. The expenditure of £46,135 4s. 9d. against Subhead K.3. represents advances made during the year to Comhlucht Lorgtha agus Forbartha Mianraí, Teoranta, under Section 10 of the Minerals Exploration and Development Company Act, 1941, as amended by Emergency Powers (No. 334) Order, 1944 (Statutory Rules and Orders, No. 245 of 1944). The total advances to the company to 31st March, 1945, amounted to £180,528 6s. 3d. In exercise of the powers conferred by Sections 11(2) and 12(3) of the Act, the Minister for Industry and Commerce has, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, agreed to the postponement to 1st January, 1946, of the payment by the company of interest on advances and of the repayment of instalments of advances which fell due on 1st July, 1944, and 1st January, 1945. In accordance with Sections 11(3) and 12(4) of the Act, the company became liable for interest on the deferred payments and the Minister for Finance has directed that this interest should also be paid on 1st January, 1946. Amounts of £38 2s. 11d. and £48 2s. 10d. were received from Comhlucht Gual-Láthrach Shliabh Ardachadh, Teoranta, and Comhlucht Lorgtha agus Forbartha Mianraí, Teoranta, respectively, in repayment, with interest, of loans advanced to these companies under Section 7 of the Slievardagh Coalfield Development Act, 1941, and Section 9 of the Minerals Exploration and Development Company Act, 1941. These amounts are accounted for as exchequer extra receipts.” Mr. Maher.—This is the customary informative paragraph regarding minerals development and I have no further observations to offer. 380. Chairman.—Has the interest been paid yet? Witness.—No. 381. Does that mean there is a further postponement?—Yes. 382. Can you say what the total advances are to date in respect of both these companies, now Mianraí, Teoranta? —The total amount due at 31st March, 1946, was £347,160. That includes interest accrued amounting to £34,785. 383. Under K.6, I see there is a note on page 181:—“The award of the Mining Board not being available no payment was made in the financial year”. Has the award been made yet?—An award has been made in respect of the mining rights in one of those areas and payment of £4,554 17s. 0d. has been made. 384. Apparently there are other cases outstanding?—Yes, that only covers one area. 385. I notice on page 180 the first item under Exchequer Extra Receipts is for Fees under the Minerals Development Act, 1940. What exactly is covered by that?—Fees have to be paid on application for mining rights and then there are head rents on leases granted for the purpose of raising minerals. Royalties are paid on minerals raised from property leased. VOTE 56—TRANSPORT AND METEOROLOGICAL SERVICES.Mr. J. Leydon further examined.386. Chairman.—There is a note on page 21 as follows:— “Subhead A—Payments in Respect of Steamer Services. 47. As the annual subsidy payable in accordance with the provisions of the Aran Island (Transport) Act, 1936, to the company operating the Galway-Aran steamer service was found in the year under review to be insufficient to ensure the continuance of the service, the Minister for Industry and Commerce was empowered by Emergency Powers (No. 331) Order, 1944 (Statutory Rules and Orders, No. 244 of 1944), to pay to the company during any year, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, such subsidies as he thinks proper. Under this authority a subsidy of £700 additional to the normal annual subsidy of £300 was paid, provision having been made by means of a supplementary estimate.” That Act has been repealed by the Act passed earlier this year?—Yes. 387. Is this steamer service run at a loss?—Yes, it requires a subsidy every year. I want to be sure I do not misunderstand your question. It would be run at a loss if it were not for the subsidy. 388. Chairman.—Paragraph 48 says: “Subhead AA—Grants to Harbour Authorities. 48. This subhead provided for the payment of grants to certain harbour authorities which, owing to the effect of Emergency conditions on their normal sources of revenue, were unable to meet the cost of the essential maintenance of their undertakings. The amount charged in the year under review represents payments on account to each of two authorities, calculated at thirty-seven and a half per cent. of the estimated deficit on working arising in the local accounting year. The full amount to be paid in these cases is fifty per cent. of the actual deficit on working subject to an overriding maximum in each case, and the balances of the grants will be payable when the actual deficits have been ascertained from the audited accounts of the harbour authorities.” 389. Can you say what the two authorities are?—Galway and Wexford harbour authorities. 390. Was there any local contribution by the councils in respect of these two harbour authorities?—The Galway County Council and the Wexford County Council and Corporation have agreed to make a contribution. What the amount will be I am afraid I could not say. 391. Will this still fall to be paid under the new Harbours Act in respect of these harbour authorities?—In so far as these grants are continued, that is a condition. We are prepared to continue these grants in suitable cases. In general, the rule is that an equivalent contribution will be made by the local authority. I just have not the figures for Galway and Wexford. Mr. Maher.—I understand the Galway people were prepared to make a contribution equal to the sum paid by the Minister, and in the Wexford case they were levying a rate of 4d. in the case of the Corporation and a farthing in the case of the County Council, but we have not got the figures yet. 392. Chairman.—It is reasonable to assume that, with the increasing trade, now that the emergency is passing or has passed, the harbour authority may be able to run the business at a profit?— They should be able to provide for the maintenance. The reason for making this provision at all was that, on account of the stoppage of shipping services generally, arising out of the emergency, the harbour authorities were not able to meet the maintenance charges. It should be anticipated that, with the return of normal conditions, they would be in a position to do so. 393. Deputy Sheldon.—The grants are strictly limited to harbours where the deficits occur through this particular item, that is, through the loss of trade on account of the emergency?—Yes. 394. It is no wider than that?—No, these are maintenance grants. 395. Chairman.—There is a further note, as follows: “Subhead B (8)—Catering Service — Shannon Airport. 49. The catering service at the Shannon Airport is carried on under an arrangement with the catering controller which provides inter alia, for the recoupment to him of the actual loss incurred each year in operating the service as shown by the audited accounts. Pending ascertainment of the actual loss incurred sums amounting to £6,000 were paid to the controller during the year and are charged to this subhead.” Can you say if the loss has been ascertained yet?—Yes, the loss for the 12 months ending the 31st January, 1945, is £6,909 and for the 31st January, 1946, it is £9,666 approximately. 396. So the loss is increasing, apparently, even with the increase in traffic?—No. I am giving only the figures up to the 31st January, 1946. It was since then that the traffic increased and I would be very disappointed if it were anything like that figure for the current financial year. Over the past few months, I think it is fair to say—though I am not in a position to produce costings and cannot get them—that the catering service is paying its way quite comfortably. 397. Deputy Pattison.—I think steps ought to be taken to ensure that it does. I do not know what the country generally would think of this, that the Shannon Airport Restaurant should be costing the taxpayer any money at all. 398. Chairman.—I understand one of the difficulties is that meals have to be got ready at comparatively short notice, in view of the uncertainty of the arrival of the planes?—That is one of the difficulties. The catering service may be required to provide a couple of hundred meals at, perhaps, a half hour’s notice at any time. For instance, the services going out on a particular night might be cancelled within half an hour of the time fixed. I think that is public property. On account of weather conditions, the pilots may decide not to go. Then all the passengers and crews have to be fed and the catering service in Shannon Airport —which is not, as will be appreciated, in the heart of a big town—has to keep staffs and provide these meals at very short notice. It is an expensive service to run. 399. Deputy Pattison.—I am afraid we will have to reserve further comment to another place, Mr. Chairman. Witness.—If I may add a word, I should like to say that, during the accounting period to which this account relates, there was, of course, very little traffic and it was very uncertain. There was no regular traffic and the service had to be provided there, with staff and so on. It was quite impossible to charge prices for meals which would cover the cost of running it at that time. We were really providing facilities there so as to have them for the time when the traffic developed. It has developed now to a point where I am satisfied it is paying its way at the moment. There is a point which might be of interest to the Committee in connection with the airport catering services. I have here statistics regarding passengers and meals served since 1944, and I could leave particulars with the Secretary, if the Committee think it would be assistance.* Chairman.—It would help us to understand the matter. “Subhead C—Subsidy in Respect of Air Services. 50. The charge to this subhead represents payment to Aer Rianta, under the Subsidy (Aer Rianta, Teoranta) Order, 1944 (Statutory Rules and Orders, No. 110 of 1944), and the Subsidy (Aer Rianta, Teoranta) Order, 1945 (Statutory Rules and Orders, No. 41 of 1945), to meet the estimated losses of the company and the subsidiary company (Aer Lingus, Teoranta) in the operation of air services. The actual loss was determined by the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Industry and Commerce to be £29,764 8s. 6d., and the sum of £2,735 11s. 6d., being the excess of the estimated over the actual loss, has been repaid and will be accounted for as an exchequer extra receipt in the year 1945-46.” 400. Deputy Sheldon.—As regard Item B.7 (Shannon Airport Road Services), I am in a difficulty as I was not the member who was most interested in this matter, and that member is not present A question arose with the accounting officer for Public Works and Buildings in regard to a matter about which the Comptroller and Auditor-General has a note in paragraph 9. That accounting officer passed the matter by saying that the Department of Industry and Commerce could more properly answer the queries which were put to him?—If the Committee wish, I shall do my best to deal with the matter now. 401. I am raising the matter only because the other member of the Committee is not present and I should not like it to slip by without some reference. The original contract was changed and the amount increased to get quicker work done. In fact, the work was not done more quickly. The member of the Committee concerned was wondering what had happened and if the Department was quite satisfied on the matter?—I do not accept the statement that the work was not done more quickly. In the case of this contract, we departed from the usual procedure of a lump sum. The work was extremely urgent and, when one is placing a lump sum contract, one has to get contract drawings, take out bills of quantities and invite tenders. The initial delay which this procedure entails may vary from six to nine months from the time you take the decision until you place the contract. If you proceed on a time and material basis, you can place your contract at once. The contractor can proceed on working drawings and you can give him detailed drawings as the work proceeds. It is true that this contract was not completed within the time we had hoped it would be but very few contracts are so completed. A lump sum contract, somewhat similar in size, for £46,000, was placed at Foynes in January, 1944, and in respect of that contract we had to agree to extensions running in all to 16 months. We had hoped to get this contract finished in November and I think it extended to the following July. The delays were due to a number of causes, mainly difficulty in obtaining material and things like electric equipment. There were also difficulties about getting labour. Certain changes were made in the original proposals, which also held up the contractor. 402. Was the work completed by the 31st July, 1945? Yes, including some additional works not included in the original contract. 403. I suppose there is no question of inserting a penalty clause in these contracts for delay?—If the Committee desire to discuss the question of penalty clauses, I suggest that they should do so with the Board of Works who have more knowledge and experience of these matters than I have. My personal experience is that it is almost impossible to enforce penalty clauses. 404. I suppose you would not get a contractor to accept a contract with a penalty clause?—There are always arguments as to whether the delay was the fault of the contractor or not. 405. Chairman.—You mentioned that the work under contract had to be varied. I suppose that that variation could not have been foreseen when the contract was being originally placed?—No. One of the great difficulties in connection with civil aviation and the construction of works of this kind is that the requirements of companies change so rapidly that it is quite impossible to foresee any distance. It has been almost our invariable experience, when providing extensions of accommodation, that, long before the extensions are completed, the companies are looking for more accommodation than was originally required. 406. The companies make no contribution to the facilities provided?—They pay a rental for office accommodation and landing fees for the use of the airport. 407. If they ask for a runway to be extended, they do not make a direct contribution to the cost?—No. 408. Deputy Sheldon.—What was the final cost in connection with this contract?—£74,500. 409. Under “Extra Receipts Payable to the Exchequer”, Item 2 consists of a contribution of £6,000 towards the cost of trans-Atlantic air services. Who pays that?—The British Government. 410. Chairman.—Is the landing base at Foynes being used now?—No. There are no flying boats on that route. 411. I understood there was a hostel in course of construction there. Has that been completed?—It has been completed. 412. Is it unoccupied?—It is equipped for use by the companies for accommodating passengers who are delayed overnight. There is an arrangement with one of the companies and a tentative arrangement with the others by which they use it and pay so much a night with an additional amount per bed used by passengers. 413. That is for passengers held up at Rineanna?—Yes. 414. What area of land has the Department under its control at Rineanna?—I am afraid I cannot answer that question. Chairman.—It does not matter. I put the question because I noticed that the farm receipts were better than anticipated. VOTE 57—RAILWAY TRIBUNAL.Mr. J. Leydon further examined.415. Chairman.—The Railway Tribunal has been wound up? Mr. Leydon.—Yes. VOTE 58—MARINE SERVICE.Mr. J. Leydon further examined.416. Chairman.—There is a note by the Comptroller and Auditor-General (Paragraph No. 51) on this Vote as follows: “Subhead I. (3)—Pensions and Allowances in Respect of Disablement or Death. Regulations governing the payment of pensions and allowances in respect of crews of Irish ships are contained in Emergency Powers (No. 263) Order, 1943 (Statutory Rules and Orders, No. 86 of 1943), the rates being the same as those payable in Great Britain in similar circumstances. In the year under review the rates payable were increased in Great Britain, and the Department of Finance approved of similar increases, with effect as from May, 1944, in the amounts payable in respect of seamen serving in Irish ships.” Deputy Sheldon.—Does that Emergency Powers Order still apply or has it ceased to operate?—It is being continued. VOTE 59—UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE AND UNEMPLOYMENT ASSISTANCE.Mr. J. Leydon further examined.417. Chairman.—There is a note by the Comptroller and Auditor-General (Paragraph 52) as follows: “Subhead L—Appropriations in Aid. Amount received from the Unemployment Fund under Section 12 (3) of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1920, as amended by Section 8 of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1922, Section 3 of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1930, and Section 3 of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1933. I referred in paragraph 56 of my last report to the basis of calculation of the amount to be paid, in accordance with the provisions of the Unemployment Insurance Acts, from the Unemployment Insurance Fund and credit to appropriations in aid of the vote for Unemployment Insurance and Unemployment Assistance. I understand that the matter is still under consideration by the Department of Finance.” Has the matter since been disposed of? Mr. Maher.—This matter has recently been disposed of by the issue by the Minister for Finance of regulations termed Unemployment Insurance (Appropriations in Aid) Regulations, 1946, under which the Minister fixed the amount to be transferred from the fund and the manner in which it is to be applied. I do not expect there will be any further difficulty. 418. Chairman.—Paragraph 53 reads:— “Receipts from County Borough and Urban Area Councils under Section 26 of the Unemployment Assistance Act, 1933, as amended by the Unemployment Assistance (Amendment) Acts, 1938 and 1940. 53. In paragraph 55 of the report on the accounts for the year 1942-43 reference was made to a legal opinion which had been obtained to the effect that where the rateable value of Electricity Supply Board hereditaments is greater than the amount on which, under the Electricity (Supply) (Amendment) Act, 1930, the rates payable are calculated, the higher figure was correctly included in the certificates furnished by the Commissioner of Valuation in accordance with Section 5(1) of the Act of 1940. The Department has sought to collect contributions on the basis of this opinion but two local authorities have based their payments on the lower figure. The total amount so withheld up to 31st March, 1945, was over £4,000.” Mr. Maher.—This matter has already been before the Committee in the Report for the year 1942-43. It was decided not to introduce amending legislation to rectify the position until the amendment of the Unemployment Assistance Acts in other respects was contemplated. 419. Chairman.—Can you say, Mr. Leydon, if any other amendment is contemplated?—Perhaps I might deal with the question in another way. The two authorities concerned have not yet paid but we have requested the Department of Local Government and Public Health to deduct the amount from the sums payable to them out of the Local Taxation Account. 420. Does the Department of Local Government and Public Health agree to that?—I could not say if they have agreed yet, but they have been asked. 421. Chairman.—Can the Department of Finance say anything on this matter? Mr. Almond.—No. The Department of Industry and Commerce reported to us that they had asked the Department of Local Government to make these deductions and that their request was based on an advice from the Attorney-General. We are awaiting the outcome of that request. 422. Deputy Blowick.—What are the local authorities concerned?—Dublin and Dun Laoghaire. 423. Chairman.—Turning to the details of the Vote itself on page 195, may I ask whether the special register of agricultural and turf workers, referred to under Subhead J.2, is connected with the scheme under which labourers were brought to areas where there was a shortage of seasonal labour for harvest and turf work?—Yes, that was the intention. Subhead J.3 provides for the transfer. 424. Deputy Pattison.—The scheme does not appear to be working well according to the figures given here?— The figures speak for themselves. It was not up to our anticipations. VOTE 60—INDUSTRIAL AND COMMERCIAL PROPERTY REGISTRATION OFFICE.Mr. J. Leydon further examined.425. Chairman.—I observe a note to Subhead C on page 199 to the effect that the expenses were greater than anticipated. Can you say where these two international unions have their headquarters? —I am afraid I should have to inquire about that. I have not the information by me now. Many of those organisations changed their addresses during the war. VOTE 68—CHILDREN’S ALLOWANCES.Mr. J. Leydon further examined.426. Chairman.—Paragraph 82 of the report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General states:— “Subhead C—Children’s Allowances. 82. In accordance with the provisions of the Children’s Allowances Act, 1944, and the regulations made thereunder, children’s allowances became payable as from 1st August, 1944, to claimants who fulfilled the statutory conditions on 1st May, 1944, which was fixed as the qualifying date for the first payment period. As shown in the account, the charge to the subhead in respect of payments to 31st March, 1945, amounted to £1,336,670 15s 0d. In the course of my examination of awards cases were noted in which the statutory conditions were not fulfilled; in some instances claims had not been signed by the claimants, in others the claims had not been received before the commencement of the appropriate payment period. I am in communication with the Accounting Officer regarding awards made in such cases and also regarding the exercise after the termination of the relevant payment period of the powers relating to admission and amendment of claims in certain circumstances.” Mr. Maher.—I suggest that the consideration of that paragraph might be deferred until the examination of the accounts for the next year. A number of similar cognate questions arise in the subsequent year. 427. Chairman.—The report proceeds:— “In reply to an inquiry as to the inclusion of an employee in the claim of an employer to whom an award was made I was informed that for the purposes of the Act it was decided that the employed child was maintained by the employer, and that employed children cannot be excluded, per se, from the provisions of the Act. The interpretation of the expressions “resident in that region” in Section 3(1) and “normally resides” in Section 3(3) of the Act appears to have occasioned some difficulty in administration, cases being observed in which awards were made in respect of the first payment period but were refused for subsequent periods although the circumstances were unaltered.” Mr. Maher.—The residence qualification is now defined in a regulation made by the Minister under Statutory Rules and Orders, No. 152 of 1946. 428. Chairman.—The definition was altered by the amending Act?—Yes, Sir. 429. Chairman.—The report further states: “Cases came under notice in which claimants were accepted as the agents of fathers without investigation of the fathers’ entitlement under Section 3(1) of the Act. I was informed that in the earlier stages of the operation of the scheme it was not considered necessary, nor was it possible, to have all cases of the nature investigated, but that all such cases are now tested to see that the statutory conditions are fulfilled. The regulations provide that a claim for an allowance shall be attested by a person duly qualified to certify such claims. No provision is made for attestation of half-yearly renewal claims and I was informed that it is not considered necessary or desirable to have such claims attested, and that no alternative method of verifying renewal claims is contemplated. I was informed that the payment on 19th December, 1944, of children’s allowance orders due on 26th December, 1944, was not considered inconsistent with the General Regulations already made, but to remove any doubt it is intended to have a suitable amendment incorporated with other amendments to the Genral Regulations rendered necessary by amending legislation.” Has that been done?—Yes. 430. Chairman.—The paragraph also states: “In some instances legal proceedings were taken under Section 12 of the Act owing to false or misleading representations as a result of which overpayments of allowances had been made. I have inquired as to the number of such cases, the total amount involved, and the amount which has been recovered.” Mr. Maher.—I have been supplied with this information and I have no further comment to make. VOTE 69—SUPPLIES.Mr. J. Leydon further examined.“83. As in previous years, the price of flour was controlled and the earnings of the milling industry regulated by means of subsidy paid to Grain Importers (Eire), Limited. The profits of the industry were limited to a percentage of a specified figure representing capital employed, and, commencing with the cereal year 1942-43, the cost of any capital employed in excess of the specified figure was allowed to qualify for subsidy. Wheat was imported by Grain Importers (Eire), Limited, and allocated to millers at prices designed to enable the milling industry to earn the agreed remuneration, and the expenditure from this subhead related mainly to the discharge of the company’s claims in respect of losses amounting to £2,279,774 10s. 3d. on the sale of imported wheat allocated to millers in the period 27th February, 1944, to 3rd March, 1945. In addition, £4,139 1s. 6d. was paid on foot of claims which had previously been disallowed pending investigation. Following examination of the millers’ accounts by officers of the Department, additional subsidy was paid to the company in adjustment of the remuneration of, and in recoupment of the cost of additional capital employed in, the industry. The payments amounted to £310,005, and comprised £10,005, being the balance of £34,380 due for the cereal year 1942-43, and £300,000 on account for the cereal year 1943-44. The subsidy payable to Grain Importers (Eire), Limited, amounted, therefore, to £2,593,918 11s. 9d., but a sum of £28,588 2s. 6d. was made available towards subsidy from the funds of the company, thereby reducing the charge to the vote to £2,565,330 9s. 3d.” 431. Chairman.—I notice that the payment on account was rather large, amounting to £300,000. Would that meet the full obligation or were further payments necessary?—Not the full amount. Actually it is extremely difficult to foresee what amount will be required. We make these payments so far as possible so as to keep Grain Importers in a position in which they will not be running into very heavy overdrafts. It is nearly impossible to fix the allocation price in advance because there are so many variable factors. We do not know what the grist is going to be, what the moisture content, which is a very important factor, is going to be, or what the extraction will be. There is also the cost of fuel, transport and so on. These all have a considerable effect on the allocation price. 432. Has the cost of imported wheat tended to rise or fall?—The cost of wheat has gone up considerably. There are two factors running against each other—the cost of wheat is going up and the cost of freight is coming down. The freight is now only £3 per ton. At one time it was £16 per ton, when there were war risks, insurance, etc. On the other hand the cost of wheat has gone up from £7 per ton to £14 per ton. It is still true, however, that the subsidy is due to native wheat. Even at present prices, if we were only using imported wheat, no subsidy would be required. 433. Chairman.—The Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General continues: “Payments of subsidy to wheaten mean millers totalled £15,958 11s. 7d. and were made at varying rates fixed by references to the cost of production, including a profit of 2s. per sack, and to the controlled selling price of wheaten meal. The subsidy was ordinarily paid on the total quantity of meal manufactured and sold by individual wheaten meal millers, but proportionate reductions in the quantities were made in cases where wheat was milled in excess of specified quotas. The charge to the vote was reduced to £15,936 17s. 5d. by the receipt from Grain Imports (Eire), Limited, of £21 14s. 2d., representing the net profit arising from adjustments in prices of imported wheat allocated to certain wheaten meal millers by the company. Subsidy at the rate of ½d. per 4 1b. loaf continued to be paid in respect of batch bread baked and sold by bakers licensed under the Emergency Powers (Bakers) Order, 1941 (Statutory Rules and Orders, No. 453 of 1941), the disbursements amounting to £152,299 16s. 1d. The balance of the charge to this subhead, amounting to £27,000 relates to payments on account made to Tea Importers (Eire), Limited, in recoupment of estimated trading losses incurred during the year under review. Including £148,000 advanced in the previous year, the total of advances made to the company to 31st March, 1945, amounting to £175,000. Subhead G—Fuel Subsidy. 84. A note appended to the original supplementary estimates for this service indicated that, by arrangement with Fuel Importers (Eire), Limited, the total loss incurred by the company in the sale of turf and timber fuel was borne by the company, and that issues would be made from this subhead in recoupment thereof. The estimates totalled £1,180,000 and, as will be seen from the account, this provision was utilized in full. The payments, which were on account, related to the loss incurred on sales of turf and timber fuel during the year ended 31st December, 1944. Including £830,000 disbursed in the previous year, the total payments to the company amounted, at 31st March, 1945, to £2,010,000. Subhead H—Miscellaneous Fuel Production Schemes. 85. The charge to this subhead includes payments amounting to £3,853 13s. 4d. made to certain county councils in recoupment of losses incurred in connection with the experimental cutting of turf and with experiments in the carbonisation of turf. In the latter case, I observed that, in certifying the amounts due for recoupment, totalling £1,852 3s. 3d., the Department of Local Government and Public Health stated that the accounts of the county councils concerned had not been audited for the complete period covered by the expenditure. In reply to my inquiry whether any alterations fell to be made in the amounts already certified, I was informed that auditors’ reports on the accounts had not yet been received.” Can you say if the auditors’ reports have yet been received?—Some have been received. I do not think they have all been received yet. 434. Paragraphs 86 and 87 of Comptroller and Auditor-General’s Report:— “Operations of the Turf Development Board, Limited. 86. Issues during the year to the Turf Development Board, Limited, made fro Grants-in-Aid with the consent of the Minister for Finance, comprised £523,000 in connection with the production of turf for use in non-turf areas (Subhead K.1.), £26,910 for administrative expenses (Subhead K.2.), and £11,000 towards turf charcoal production and general peat fuel development (Subhead K.3.). Sums totalling £250,062 11s. 3d. were received in respect of sales of turf produced under the turf camps scheme and are included in the exchequer extra receipts. In addition to the issues mentioned, sums amounting to £10,750 were advanced, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, for the preliminary development of certain bogs (Subhead K.4.). Repayments by the Board, which are included in the exchequer extra receipts, amounted to £20,432 3s. 9d., and at 31st March, 1945, the amounts outstanding, including interest, in respect of repayable advances for the development of bogs were:—
A sum of £4,811 0s. 6d., representing the balance, including interest to 31st March, 1943, of repayable advances made to the Board for the production of hand-won turf, was written off as irrecoverable. Extra Receipts Payable to Exchequer. 87. As will be seen from the account, licence and other fees payable under Section 8 of the Emergency Powers Act, 1939, amounting to £2,964 7s. 0d. The principal items were Fabrics (Import Licences) £698 17s. 6d., Duplicate Ration Books £621 11s. 6d., and Spirits and Wines in bond (Distillers’ and Wholesalers’ certificates, and sales permits) £333.” 435. Deputy Sheldon.—Under “Extra Receipts payable to Exchequer,” on page 242, there is an item: Fees paid for turf cutting on lands taken into possession under the Emergency Powers Order. 1939. Why fees? Is it compensation for entering on lands, for way-leaves or for trespass?—They are really rents. I do not know why they are called fees. Apparently the Emergency Powers Order enabled us to levy fees, so we fix a rent and call it a fee. VOTE 71—FOOD ALLOWANCES.Mr. J. Leydon further examined.436. Chairman.—A note by the Comptroller and Auditor-General reads:— “88. During the year under review an amendment of the scheme for the issue of vouchers exchangeable for food was effected by the Emergency Powers (Food Allowances) Order, 1941 (Twelfth Amendment) Order, 1944 (Statutory Rules and Orders, No. 264 of 1944). The Order, which provides for the issue of food vouchers to certain classes of old age pensioners in respect of dependant children, came into operation on 22nd September, 1944. As stated in a note to the account, the estimated cost for the period ended 31st March, 1945, was £400.” Under Subhead D. of the Vote, what particular class of recipients are entitled to allowances?—It is a special provision for recipients who are also receiving disablement benefit. There is no distinction between the allowances in kind for those recipients and other cases. They are resident in certain areas. 437. Does it depend on the degree of disablement?—It depends rather on residence. They are people who are resident in county boroughs, urban districts and towns incorporated under the Towns Improvement Act, 1854. VOTE 61—POSTS AND TELEGRAPHS.Mr. R. J. Cremins called and examined.438. Chairman.—The note by the Comptroller and Auditor-General at paragraph 54 reads:— “Subhead E (1)—Conveyance of Mails by Rail. “54. Reference was made in paragraph 56 of the report on the accounts for the year 1942-43 to a reduction in the payment made to the Great Southern Railways Company (now Córas Iompair Eireann) for the conveyance of letter mails by rail, in view of restrictions in train services which came into operation on 8th October 1941. The revised annual payment £130,000 was to operate during the continuance of the Emergency, subject to the maintenance of the restricted services then being afforded by the company. The services were further curtailed as from 24th April, 1944, and following negotiations with the company the annual payment was reduced to £120,000 from that date, subject to review in the event of any further material change by way of increase or decrease in the service being rendered to the Department.” In view of the improvement, has there been a change?—The services were improved from 6th July, 1945 and the subsidy increased from £120,000 to £126,000. We are at the moment engaged in arranging a new contract with Córas Iompair Eireann. We have made an examination of all the services in detail and discussions are going on at the moment. Paragraph 55 of Comptroller and Auditor-General’s Report:— “Subhead E (4)—Packet Service— British and Foreign. “55. As stated in paragraph 57 of the report on the accounts for the year 1940-41, the contribution payable towards the cost of the conveyance of mails between this country and Great Britain by the Dun Laoghaire-Holyhead route was reduced provisionally to £20,000 per annum with effect as from the 1st January, 1941. During the period 25th April, 1944, to 20th August, 1944, the sailings were curtailed by an order made by the British Ministry of War Transport but, with the concurrence of the Department of Finance, the annual contribution was paid without adjustment in respect of this period.” 439. Mr. Cremins.—I should like to say that that refers to the Dun Laoghaire-Holyhead service. Although the services were curtailed, we were given instead the use of the North Wall service which was a very satisfactory service for the time being and that was one of the considerations which influenced the Department of Finance in agreeing that there should be no reduction of the subsidy. Paragraphs 56 and 57 of Comptroller and Auditor-General’s Report:— “Losses by Default, etc. “56. The losses borne on the vote for the year ended 31st March, 1945, amounted to £4,142 2s. 3d., of which £2,355 3s. 0d. was charged to Subhead H.2. and £1,786 19s. 3d. to Subhead O.6. Classified schedules of these losses are set out at pages 209 and 212. At pages 210 and 212 particulars are given of 28 cases in which cash shortages or misappropriations amounting to £567 5s. 6½d. were discovered; the sums in question were made good and no charge to public funds was necessary.” “Subhead T—Appropriations-in-Aid. Void Postal Orders. “57. Postal orders which are uncashed after three years from date of issue are treated as void and their value is appropriated in aid of the Vote. In the report on the accounts for the year 1942-43 it was mentioned that, on grounds of economy, it had been decided to discontinue the sorting of paid postal orders of certain denominations and that, as a consequence, the amount credited to Appropriations-in-Aid in respect of the denominations affected had to be estimated. With the approval of the Department of Finance it was further decided, in the year under review, that the amount to be credited in respect of the value of void orders of all denominations should be estimated on a basis determined by scrutiny of the postal order account in the light of the experience of previous years.” 440. Chairman.—Does that apply to money orders as well?—No, these are postal orders. The saving by the latest decision in that case was about £350. There had been a previous saving of about £700 through not examining these orders in detail. “Stores. “58. A test examination of the store accounts was carried out with generally satisfactory results. Difficulties arising out of the Emergency continued to affect purchases. As in previous years, the normal procedure had to be departed from in order to secure supplies and in many cases contracts were either allocated without competition or divided between a number of contractors on the basis of output. In some instances, where the quoted prices appeared excessive, reductions in prices were obtained by negotiation or after investigation of costs. In addition to the engineering stores shown in Appendix II as valued at £224,345 on the 31st March, 1945, engineering stores to the value of £502 were held on behalf of other Government Departments. Stores other than engineering stores held at that date were valued at £317,990, included in this amount being a sum of £137,893 in respect of stores held for other Government Departments.” Revenue. “59. A test examination of the accounts of the postal, telegraph and telephone services was carried out with satisfactory results. Sums due for telephone services amounting in all to £136 8s. 8d. were written off during the year as irrecoverable.” Post Office Savings Bank Accounts. “60. The accounts of the Post Office Savings Bank for the year ended 31st December, 1944, were submitted to a test examination with satisfactory results.” Post Office Factory. “61. A test examination was applied to the accounts of the Post Office Factory with satisfactory results. Including works in progress on 31st March, 1945, the expenditure on manufacturing jobs during the year amounted to £12,318, expenditure on repair work (other than repairs to mechanical transport) amounted to £11,119, and expenditure on mechanical transport repairs amounted to £2,518.” Telephone Capital Account. “62. In 1942 the sanction of the Department of Finance was obtained for laying approximately 70 miles of concrete pipes on main trunk telephone routes at a total cost of £40,000. The work had not yet been completed but considerable expenditure on materials, etc., was incurred and charged to the Vote in the years 1942-43, 1943-44 and 1944-45. As the Department of Finance directed that the cost of materials and administrative charges should be met directly from telephone capital funds, I have addressed an inquiry to the Accounting Officer on the matter.” 441. Chairman.—Can you say what the position is?—Some ducts have been laid on the Limerick-Rineanna route. That is the route on which there was a strike. We made a start there in connection with the provision of extra telephone services to Rineanna and ducts will be laid in other parts as circumstances permit. 442. What is the position about the cost? Apparently the estimated cost is £40,000. Can you say what sums were voted already?—We got authority from the Department of Finance for the expenditure of a total sum of £40,000, of which £12,000, representing the cost of materials and administration charges, would be met from Telephone Capital Funds and the remainder, the cost of labour, would be met in the first instance from the Special Employment Schemes Vote. We explained the position to the Comptroller and Auditor-General. 443. That was an unusual procedure, to charge the sum to the Vote?—These ducts for the conveyance of underground cable were usually imported but, on on account of the difficulty of importation during the emergency, we proceeded to get the ducts manufactured here. It was decided that they were not to be laid until a state of unemployment emergency necessitated their laying. The Post Office would only require ducts when it was about to put in cables. It was decided that, if the ducts were to be laid as an emergency measures, the cost of labour would in the first instance be charged to the Special Employment Schemes Vote. Afterwards, as soon as we began to put in the cables in, say, six or 12 months’ time, we would transfer the charge to the Telephone Capital Account. Mr. Maher.—The point really is concerned with charging to the Vote expenditure which would normally be charged to the Telephone Capital Account. Mr. Cremins.—That was only a temporary expedient, charging it to the Vote until such time as we wanted the ducts. These ducts would not ordinarily be put down until needed for post office purposes. Mr. Maher.—We are satisfied so long as the Vote will ultimately be relieved of the cost. Mr. Cremins.—That will be the case. Mr. Maher.—And the Telephone Capital Account will be charged in accordance with the direction of the Department of Finance? Mr. Cremins.—That will be the case in due course. 444. Chairman.—Was the Department of Finance satisfied with the procedure? —The Department of Finance sanctioned the procedure. As I say, the original question of laying ducts arose as a special employment scheme to meet a labour emergency. 445. Deputy Sheldon.—I notice that in the note on Item E.5, page 204, a distinction is made between claims which did not materialise and certain accounts which did not fall for payment. Can you tell us what the distinction is?—Of the total amount, £7,815 approximately represented accounts which did not materialise. The explanation of that is rather technical. We estimated that we would be billed by the British Post Office for a certain amount in respect of airmail correspondence, but during the course of the year they reduced their charges for correspondence for military personnel. Consequently, for a lot of correspondence which we estimated at a higher rate we were charged less. The other is for United States accounts which we did not get in time for inclusion in the year. 446. As to Item L.3, was the difficulty about getting on with the work on the Dublin-Limerick four-channel voice frequency telegraph system due to lack of equipment?—It was an equipment difficulty. We were anxious to get on with it. 447. Chairman.—If Rineanna were not in operation it would not be necessary to lay the new line to Limerick?—Everything on that line more or less circulates around Rineanna and the additional telephone and telegraph services in that area were for Airport purposes mainly. 448. Has that prevented other places being supplied with facilities?—I think it must have to some extent because of the importance of the airport. I could not say offhand, but there must have been some diversion of materials. It is a question of relative importance. 449. It got priority?—Yes. 450. Deputy Sheldon.—As to Item L 4, can you explain the charges for rates on wires?—The Post Office have to pay rates on certain wires erected in days gone by under some old Acts. We do not pay rates on new wires. 451. These are rates to local authorities?—Yes. 452. Chairman.—I think in one or two areas in the country there is a sort of local network. I know there is one for Naas. Would that come under the rates which you mention?—It would be a question of individual wires. I could not say offhand. It is an engineering matter and I would have to look up the charts. 453. Deputy Sheldon.—As to the Appropriations in Aid, does the same period of three years apply to money orders as to postal orders?—It does. 454. Chairman.—There seems to be a substantial number of minor misappropriations of one kind or another. There is a list on pages 210 and 211. Can you say if there has been an increase in these?—I will give you some rather interesting figures. Those on pages 210 and 211 involve no charge on public funds. I will give you a comparison of the position in 1944-45 and other years. In 1943-44, the total charge to H.2. was £4,781 19s. 9d. In 1944-45, £2,355 3s. 0d. That is about half. I can give you an estimated figure for 1944-46, to take the matter further—£2,274 15s. 1d. The figures have been dropping. Under 0.6., that is the Savings Bank side, in 1943-44, £1,889 11s. 5d.; in 1944-5, £1,786 19s. 3d.; in 1945-46, £249 19s. 8d. That is not is beautiful as it sounds because since then there have been one or two rather substantial cases but it indicates that there is nothing to be uneasy about. Things are not going up in any case. 455. Deputy Sheldon.—Compared with the sums handled, the total is very small?—Very negligible. I should say that these losses include compensation for the loss of registered and insured parcels and damaged parcels which is mentioned on page 210. VOTE 62—WIRELESS BROADCASTING.Mr. R. J. Cremins further examined.456. Chairman.—Can you say, Mr. Cremins, on what basis sponsored programmes are secured or do persons tender for them and is there a uniform charge?—There is a uniform charge. I have not the schedule of charges with me but I can furnish it. The charge is based upon whether the time taken is one-quarter hour, a half-hour, or an hour and also whether it is for a period of a quarter of a year, or half a year, and so on. There is a different rate for Sundays. 457. How do you select the people? —When people apply we indicate the general conditions, which include, that the articles advertised must be Irish products. There are certain things which are not permitted. I think alcohol is one and cosmetics and things like that because we do not want to get back to the Luxembourg stage. Then if the people are prepared to tender and to comply with these restrictions, the charges are quoted and they are allocated whatever time is available from the Station point of view and is suitable to them. There is a balancing up. There are different charges for the afternoon from the charges for night. The afternoon charges are lower than the night charges. 458. Can you say, relative to the number broadcasting are there many more applicants?—We get a considerable number of applicants, very largely from the other side. What they want us to adopt is what we call international commercial broadcasting. They want to have a free leg to advertise anything they like, just as Luxembourg did. That is the best example. Luxembourg did everything. The Government decided that the Irish Station would advertise only national products, national services, tourism, and things like that. 459. Deputy Loughman.—I suppose sponsored programmes show a profit to the station?—They are a good source of revenue. Hospitals Trust pay, roughly, about £40,000 in the year. 460. Chairman.—I notice Hospitals Trust are broadcasting for a longer period than they used?—They are, and giving very high-class programmes. They bear the cost of the programmes also. 461. Chairman.—Who decides the programmes?—They do it themselves subject to the concurrence of the Director. We did have a lot of trouble in the old days with regard to some of the sponsored programmes. Fourteen and 15 years ago the standard was very low and we were getting into all kinds of trouble. We did not like it ourselves. That is well under control now. 462. Chairman.—If they all came up to Hospitals Trust standard it would be very high. Witness.—The intention is, as far as possible, to see that they do. The witness withdrew. The Committee adjourned. |
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