Committee Reports > List of Committees > Joint > 1998 > Committee on Education and Science > Report No. 01 - Literacy Levels in Ireland

AN COMHCHOISTE UM OIDEACHAS AGUS EOLAÍOCHT

JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE

Dé Máirt, 17 Feabhra, 1998.

Tuesday, 17 February 1998.

The Joint Committee met at 5.05 p.m.

Members Present:

Deputy Michael P. Kitt (in the Chair)

Apologies received from Senators Joe O’Toole and Máirín Quill

Chairman: I welcome the Members. Is it agreed that we take Items 1, 2 and 4 before we call Dr. Morgan? Agreed.

Are the minutes of the last meeting agreed? Agreed.

In relation to the circulation of documents to Members of the Committee under Standing Order 88(a), it is suggested that the list of documents received by the Committee be circulated by the Clerk on a regular basis and that Members may contact the Clerk for any documents they may require.

It is suggested that the list of names of documents be sent to each Member and the actual documents may be obtained from the Clerk.

How often does the Committee wish to receive the list of documents? Once a fortnight or once a month for example?

Deputy O’Shea: Once a month unless there is a particular reason to have it more often.

Chairman: We will agree on once a month.

At the last meeting of the Committee it was agreed that we would get a note on the position of sub-committees to expedite the work programme. The Chairpersons discussed this matter at our meeting. Standing Orders give the Committee the power to appoint sub-committees and to refer to such sub-committees any matter comprehended by its orders of reference and to delegate any of its powers to such sub-committees, including the power to report directly to the Dáil. It is, therefore, open to the Committee to appoint a sub-committee if it so chooses to consider the issues. If the Members with to set up a sub-committee today it must decide the number of members, what constitutes a quorum and the powers/functions of the sub-committee. As an alternative to appointing a formal sub-committee the Committee can appoint an informal group. We have such a group in relation to the work programme. The informal group could decide the approach of the Committee to the subjects, who to invite, when and so on, whether consultants are required and if so to select same for approval by the Committee following the normal procurement procedures and the preferred outcome of the Committees deliberations, the type of report and so on. This was raised by Deputy Farrelly. I would like the views of the Committee on the question of setting up a sub-committee or an informal group.

Deputy R. Bruton: It would be worth having a sub-committee on two major items which we hope to address in the coming months. These were disadvantage and young offenders. Two sub-committees could move forward on two fronts.

Senator Ormonde: I agree with Deputy Bruton. Disadvantage is a very wide question and a sub-committee could do useful work on in. There is, invariably a correlation between disadvantage and young offenders. One sub-committee could appropriately examine both.

Deputy P. Carey: It is important that there should be a small number of sub-committees because our discussions should be focused. If they are not, we will achieve little or nothing. A number of other committees are anticipating the appointment of rapporteurs. I note that reference has also been made to the recruitment of consultants, etc. Would it be in order to encourage or facilitate someone with a particular interest in respect of developing a report for the committee? Not all issues require that the committee meet to discuss them, some only require a great amount of reading and study. Has any progress been made in respect of the appointment of rapporteurs or are we still awaiting the introduction of primary and secondary legislation in that regard?

Chairman: We are still awaiting the legislation. Does the clerk to the committee have any further information in that regard?

Clerk to the Committee: The position remains the same. We are still awaiting legislation from the Department of Finance in respect of this issue. We have had no further word.

Chairman: Is it agreed that we appoint a sub-committee? Agreed. We will be obliged to adopt certain procedures when the sub-committee is established. Under the heading “Matters for decision in respect of each motion” we must provide details in respect of: the name of a sub-committee; the functions of a sub-committee; whether the sub-committee may report directly to the Dáil and Seanad; the date, if any, by which a sub-committee is to report;, the number of members of a sub-committee; the number of Deputies and the number of Senators to be appointed; party representation on a sub-committee; the names of the Members to serve on each sub-committee-a quorum of a sub-committee is not less than three - and the powers and functions of the main committee to be devolved on a sub-committee. Perhaps we deal with these matters when the sub-committee is established because a particular issue for consideration has not been suggested.

Deputy R. Bruton: I suggest that sub-committees be appointed to consider the next two topics on our agenda, namely, adjacent disadvantage at pre-school and primary level and the provision of education for young offenders and extremely disruptive children. The sub-committees’ sole task would be to return with a brief on how the committee should proceed with its investigation of these topics. We would merely be delegating to the sub-committees work on the two major topics we have set out to deal with in the coming months. The sub-committees could then set out their stall with regard to how we should tackle those issues. The committee can either agree with or amend their findings. At least there will be some systematic work carried out on the topics we wish to investigate. The sub-committees could identify whether there is a need to employ a consultant to assist on any aspect of the briefs they develop.

Deputy P. Carey: I agree with Deputy Bruton. In the context of the Select Committee on Education and Science’s deliberations on the Education (No. 2) Bill, is it proposed to advertise for written submissions? If the Joint Committee and the Select Committee both invite submissions, there is a danger that the public and ourselves might become confused. I am in favour of a broad consultation process but we should try to put our house in order in respect of what we intend to do. I suggest the appointment of a sub-committee which could decide how it proposes to investigate the topics to which Deputy Bruton referred.

Senator Ormonde: I am inclined to think along the same lines as Deputy Carey. However, I am concerned that the committee might become splintered. The committee comprises a large number of teachers among its members. In view of the terms of reference we intend to apply to a sub-committee it is difficult to see how investigations into nature of disadvantage, drop out rates, young offenders, etc., will be prioritised. We may become splintered in our thinking, particularly when others may wish to make a contribution. I have come full circle and I believe the appointment of a sub-committee should be discussed further.

Senator Coogan: This matter could be resolved if the sub-committee was directed to report to the main committee so that people who feel excluded could have the opportunity to make their contribution.

Chairman: Earlier, I proposed the appointment of an informal group to discuss the priorities we should establish but I do not believe this met with much agreement. I take it that Members favour the appointment of a sub-committee? I suggest that we proceed on those lines.

Sub-committees of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs report to the committee proper. Is it agreed that our sub-committee should do likewise? Agreed.

Deputy Bruton referred to two issues. Was he suggesting the establishment of two sub-committees to deal with them?

Deputy R. Bruton: I am open to Deputy Carey’s suggestion that one sub-committee should be appointed to deal with both topics. What I had in mind was that two groups should take an interest in one or other topic and develop an agenda. They could suggest that meetings will take place in plenary session and that work could be carried out by the sub-committee and a consultant. However, I remain open to Deputy Carey’s suggestion.

Perhaps we should establish one sub-committee and draw up the terms of reference in respect of the two topics on the agenda. We could consider at a later date whether we want to delegate some of the sub-committee’s work to a smaller group. The appointment of a group of three to four people with, for example, a particular interest in young offenders and young children would negate the need to appoint a rapporteur. The group could then develop specialised knowledge in that area. That would be a good way to proceed. However, until we know our exact agenda in respect of both topics, perhaps we should retain the general committee’s ownership because Deputy Carey appears to be concerned about establishing two sub-committees.

Chairman: There seems to be general agreement in respect of appointing one sub-committee. I referred earlier to the terms of reference of sub-committees. The first issue we should deal with is the number of people to serve on the sub-committee. Do Members wish to make proposals in that regard? It is suggested that the proportionality of Deputies to Senators should be three to one because the committee proper comprises 14 Deputies and five Senators. I am sure that can be changed.

Deputy P. Carey: I am sure there is a formula for resolving such problems. However, if the membership exceeds five, it will no longer be a sub-committee.

Chairman: Is it agreed that five be the maximum number? Agreed. We must also take account of the proportionality of party representation and remember that a quorum should be not less than three Members.

Deputy McGrath: A decision on party representation should be left to the Chairman, Vice-Chairman and the convenors.

Chairman: Is that agreed? Agreed. Before we invite our visitors to join the meeting, I wish to discuss the Education Bill which will be referred to the Select Committee in the near future. The Education Bill will be referred to the committee shortly. Is next Tuesday suitable for a select committee meeting to discuss our approach to the Bill?

Deputy R. Bruton: What issues are to be discussed?

Chairman: From whom submissions should be requested and what dates Committee Stage should be taken when the Bill is referred.

Deputy R. Bruton: The Chair should make a proposal to us at the end of the meeting. Another meeting to discuss procedure is not a good investment of time.

Chairman: I never like to ask Senators to leave a meeting.

Deputy Hanafin: A meeting of the convenors would take us a step further.

Chairman: Perhaps Deputy McGrath’s proposal on subcommittees or the meeting of convenors could be used to discuss the arrangements for Committee Stage. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Hanafin: At the last convenors meeting there was a suggestion to look for submissions. We need immediate agreement to place an advertisement for submissions if the Education Bill is to come before us so quickly.

Chairman: I wish to hold a meeting but there are many other meetings and issues on peoples’ minds. I propose a meeting of the convenors, the vice-chairman and myself to discuss the subcommittee issue and our approach to the Education Bill.

Deputy R. Bruton: It is agreed an advertisement should be placed. It cannot be place technically until Second Stage has been completed. As soon as that has happened, a statement should be issued and an advertisement placed.

Chairman: With regard to item 3 the committee decided at the last meeting to invite the authors of the “International Adult Literacy Survey-Results for Ireland” to address it in terms of its worrying findings. The survey carried out by the OECD. After the presentation there will be a questions and answers session.

I will make three points of great interest with regard to the results. They tell us a great deal about the education system generally because the sample contained people

International Adult Literacy Survey.

Chairman: I welcome Dr. Mark Morgan and his colleague, Ms Mary Rohan, who will give a short presentation on the international adult literacy survey results for Ireland.

Dr. Mark Morgan: Essentially I will tell the committee a number of things about how the survey was conducted and then refer to the most relevant aspects of the results.

Ideas about literacy have changed dramatically over the past number of years. Modern conceptions of illiteracy have disappeared. One was only illiterate if one could not write one’s name in some sense at one time. That notion is not relevant anymore because in every western country everybody was literate based on it. However, at the same time the goalposts had moved and the demands of literacy at work, school and in everyday life had become much more complex. The modern view of surveys is that has changed and instead of the concept of literacy or illiteracy, we now have an impetus which is different in three ways. First, levels of literacy are identified. This study identifies five levels of which level 1 is the most elementary while level 5 is the most complex.

Second, the study recognised different domains.

Literacy just does not extend to reading the newspaper and as a result three domains were identified - everyday prose; documents and their format, for example, graphs, timetables, etc., and quantitative issues, for example, filling in bank statements where arithmetic, etc. is involved.

The study came about as a result of a decision by the Department of Education and Science to carry out a study of the population’s literacy skills. A number of countries were carrying out similar studies at that time and the decision was made to join with them to give us comparisons. This was done in the Education and Research Centre and the other countries did theirs through their national education research organisations. A random sample of 2,500 were tested in their homes and there was a good response rate for it.

The result which attracted most attention when it was leaked was that 25 per cent of the population were at level 1. However, that does not mean they were illiterate by any standard, but that they had very modest literacy skills. If one looks at the report, there are examples of what level 1 is about. Since the report was published, the results for Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK emerged. The Northern Ireland results are a little worse than ours and the rest of the UK is about the same. Part of the reason we seem to fare relatively badly is that some countries were among the most socially and educationally advanced in the world. A fuller and clear picture is being formed as the survey is being repeated in various other countries. This result is of least interest.

aged between 16 and 65. It is very interesting that the big divide appears at age 45. People over that age have significantly worse literacy skills, but some people over that age do not deteriorate that rapidly. The expansion of the Irish educational system is 30 years old and it has to do with the relatively greater participation in education of young people. In a sense the system has done relatively well. It is remarkable how pervasive the influence of literacy skills are. We know that early school leavers suffer in the labour market but this survey showed that part of the reason for their dropping out of school related to their literacy skills. Approximately 60 per cent of early school leavers’ literacy skills were at level one which is a remarkably high figure. It is difficult to disentangle the factors involved but it seems that literacy skills were an important part of the reason people left school.

In regard to participation in adult education, literacy skills have a very pervasive influence. At 28 per cent, the level of participation in adult education is far lower than in other countries but it is interesting to note that the people with the lowest levels of literacy skills participated least. The fact that low literacy skills result in early school leaving and continue into people’s non-involvement in adult education is very worrying. A questionnaire was issued on this topic. Regardless of people’s other skills, they did not engage in any literary activity at all. Approximately 20 per cent of the population do nothing significantly literacy other than read a tabloid newspaper. In other words, they never write letters or engage in any comparable literary activity. That is very significant. If people do not use literacy skills, those skills cannot be developed.

A further consequence of the lack of literary activity relates to children. One of the things which is profoundly influential in a home is the availability of literacy activities and the involvement of parents in that. That is as important as any other factor in children’s performance at school and people can get caught up in a vicious circle.

It is also interesting to note how literacy levels affect other dimensions of a person’s life. The ESRI report shows that people who do not have literacy skills and who drop out of school early rarely get good jobs but we were also able to demonstrate that people’s social life, involvement in community activities, sport and so on tended to suffer if their literacy skills were poor. There is a whole area from which people are excluded if their literacy skills are poor. The better one’s literacy skills are the more likely one is to attend concerts and participate in community events. However, if one’s literacy skills are low, one is likely to watch more television as the other aspects of one’s life are poor.

It is interesting to note that when people were asked to rate their skills they all said that mathematics - what I call quantitative literacy - was very important to them and it was often this aspect of literacy people identified as being problematic. When a green paper on education was published five or six years ago it stated that, while we did not have a conventional illiteracy problem in Ireland, a significant section of the population only had modest levels of literacy. We need to develop a broader concept of literacy. As far as adult education is concerned, it is still the case that the courses offered and availed of are particularly suited to people who already possess good literacy skills and who do not really need to avail of them.

Chairman: When Dr. Morgan speaks about level one literacy levels, to what is he referring? A completed primary school level of literacy might be a very good one. Dr. Morgan also mentioned a link between unemployment and literacy. What are his views on that?

Dr. Morgan: Some people have attempted to link a person’s literacy competency level with a level one might, for example, expect a person to have at the end of primary education, post-primary education and so on. However, those categories do not fit easily. We are aware that a great number of primary school children possess excellent literacy skills while others have major problems. The levels referred to in the survey assess people in terms of their ability to carry out particular tasks. If one wants to know what level one competency is, one must look at the tests used to determine that. The levels are based on a statistical approach.

In regard to unemployment, the survey shows that people with poor literacy skills are more likely to be unemployed. There is a correlation between various factors such as unemployment, early school leaving and literacy skills.

Senator Ormonde: I thank Dr. Morgan for his fine presentation. I have read the survey in some detail as I based some of my own thesis on the areas of adult literacy and disadvantage, the transition from primary to second-level education and the nature of the pitfalls involved.

Dr. Morgan stated that family-related factors have a very major impact on people’s literacy skills. If people come from disadvantaged homes, overcrowded households or are the children of lone parents their literacy skills can suffer. That transfers to a school situation and a 13 year old child can go from primary to secondary school with a reading age of eight. We must tackle this problem at its roots and we must break the cycle. The cycle can be broken through the acquisition of a range of literacy skills.

It is obvious that there is a relationship between low literacy levels and unemployment and disadvantage. We must develop a framework to tackle this problem. Many people who left school at a very young age might love to return to education but their self-esteem may be low and they may not know how to get back into the system. We must put the proper infrastructure in place to make that possible. Attempts are already being made to do that through “second chance” education but many people just do not know how to get back into the system. That is where I believe the weakness lies. I would like to hear Dr. Morgan’s views on that.

Dr. Morgan: I agree with the Senator. The survey showed that relatively more women than men wanted to participate in adult education courses but they stated that various factors were preventing them from doing so. That is an angle which could be explored.

Adult education in most countries, and certainly in Ireland, is not at all distinctive. Those in adult education are doing very conventional things such as the Leaving Certificate, and people are not taking advantage of their capacity. There is very little work-related

Deputy McGrath: I am a primary school teacher, and some years ago we were given to believe that reading standards among Irish primary students were far higher than among corresponding UK students. Dr. Morgan indicated that the British literacy survey results were similar to the Irish survey results. What is Dr. Morgan’s opinion of those early reports that Irish students were doing so well? I taught students who had come back from Britain, and their literacy skills were not up to the Irish standard.

Does Dr. Morgan feel that remedial help at primary or secondary level helps literacy skills? Is there any evidence that the vast number of remedial teachers is having an effect? What is to be done about rural schools, which have students that see a remedial teacher for half an hour per week? This compares badly to schools where children get daily remedial help.

Dr. Morgan: There is definite evidence that 1950s literacy standards, particularly comprehension in English, for example, were dramatically worse in Ireland than in England. There were various factors such as bilingualism to blame, but the situation has changed dramatically. In the 1970s we drew level with English scores, and recently we overtook them, though not dramatically. There is no contradiction between that and what one finds in the adult population. Our adult population is different from most European countries in that it has a great number of people who left school early because our educational system developed later than other countries’.

We are now fairly certain that any single approach, such as the appointment of remedial teachers, will not in itself solve our problems. There are existing initiatives providing books, home-school links and community work. Evaluation suggests one needs a combination of these, but we have probably concentrated on one angle: the appointment of remedial teachers. Personally, I feel that while it might be worthwhile extending this service to the rest of the country, it is important to consider other initiatives also. A review of this is underway. We need to consider preventing literacy problems in the lower infant classes before the remedial teacher becomes relevant.

Deputy Keaveney: Where does Dr. Morgan believe these problems start? Is it the type of child being created by class size, the teacher and the school? Has children’s literacy been slowed down by technological advances? I was interested by the link between leaving school early and level one ability. Another committee discussed the suicide risk report, and this seems linked with rural suicide. This matter must be examined so as to eradicate bigger problems than literacy. What are Dr. Morgan’s views of music for children’s language and co-ordination development?

I did very little teaching in Northern Ireland and England, but I was stunned by the inadequacies of 12 year olds who could not recite the alphabet.

Dr. Morgan: Deputy Keaveney has pinpointed one of material.

our difficulties. Disadvantage is composed of a number of different problems that overlap. Some of these are personal problems, which relate to behavioural difficulties and may derive from inadequate parenting. Some are educational and relate to a lack of resources. Others are social and economic. These overlap and are at the core of our problems. This may relate to fundamental policies. Sweden came out of this survey very well, having very little people at level one. It is probably no coincidence that their general policies are very different.

Deputy Keaveney sounds like she has particular convictions on music, and conceptions of literacy should be widened. The idea that literacy is one set of confined skills is inappropriate.

Deputy R. Bruton: Dr. Morgan seems to be projecting some complacency about our position. I see a different picture in these statistics. Ireland’s 16 to 25 year old group is one of the worst, apart from Poland. We have a low level of literacy achievement, 17 per cent, in that group. Those people are well past the 1968 era of free education and are in the middle of what we would consider quality education. Germany has 5 per cent, the Netherlands 6 per cent, Sweden 3 per cent, Switzerland 7 per cent and Canada 10 per cent. Only the USA and Poland have comparable levels. Dr. Morgan seems to be suggesting that other countries have the same problems as us, but this does not seem to be confirmed by the figure. Recently, I came across another OECD figure which suggested that 21 per cent of those aged 13 and 14 years were low achievers in reading and numeracy in secondary schools and were ill-equipped to cope with the curriculum. It has been suggested that this does not constitute a reason to examine the possibility of a back to basics programme. Is Dr. Morgan confident that this is the case? Is it not true that many children, particularly those from disadvantaged areas, who pursue a primary curriculum and programme similar to that applied throughout the country have their basic needs for numeracy and literacy skills clouded out? Perhaps we should be looking at different programmes with more project work and greater use of music and colour in teaching, particularly for those who have difficulty with the traditional curriculum. Such programmes may not be back to basics in terms of the “three Rs”. The basic question is what the education system is doing for between 17 and 21 per cent of our children who are not leaving the primary system with the level of education which we expect. Other countries seem to be doing better.

It was said there is no single policy initiative. Are there any distinguishing features of the Dutch or Swedish systems which are doing particularly well? Can programmes which have made a difference be pinpointed? We are heavily committed to the Early Start and Breaking the Cycle programmes. Are we correct in pursuing these routes? There is no evidence that high literacy performance has a strong correlation with low class size. Is there such a correlation, however, in the case of the Early Start and Breaking the Cycle programmes?

What does this study tell us about Irish employers? Compared with other countries, more Irish workers are not using literacy and numeracy skills in the workplace. Is there an implication that Irish employers should be making training part of social partnership agreements, for example?

It struck me as strange that 33 per cent of those with minimum literacy read books at least once per week and do not rate themselves as having poor literacy skills. Is it felt that levels one to three are robust measures given that 33 per cent of people who according to the study are unable to read a Panadol packet read books every week?

Dr. Morgan: If I sounded complacent, the tone of what I was saying was in the context of the newspaper reports of the study which stated that 25 per cent of Irish people were totally illiterate. I accept that we cannot be complacent. On balance, the study paints a lousy picture. Younger people only seemed to do well because those over 45 years old did badly.

The results, including those of the UK and the Northern Ireland subsample which have been submitted since the publication of the report, are more similar to those of the Republic. The French pulled out of this study because the results were so bad. The idea that the system was performing badly was propounded, but this was in comparison with a relatively small number of countries. I would feel happier as some of the other results come in.

Regarding the 21 per cent who may have literacy problems, the problem with reading is that as standards change and as there is no absolute notion, it is necessary to take an arbitrary measure, such as a standard deviation below the national or international norm. There are no good benchmarks for measuring the number who have problems. This does not mean we cannot deduce anything from the findings: there is a minority of children who, by any standards, have major problems. It is not as high as 21 per cent, but between 6 and 8 per cent are not equipped on leaving primary school.

The question was asked about what other countries were doing. The major issue is that many other countries have developed adult education, something we have not done. It has not been relevant or of interest. This is a major issue.

Initiatives to address educational disadvantage have not been brilliant in the past. It was found that the effects of the head start programme and other initiatives washed out after a number of years. The most effective programmes are those which take a multifaceted approach and do not simply rely on a remedial teacher. Usually such approaches include people who prevent the pupils concerned from falling behind. However, such initiatives are incredibly expensive. Research from the US indicates they do have positive results, but they need a different approach from what we are accustomed to and interaction between teachers and social workers.

I found it fascinating that our workplaces are not consistent with the image of a country which is very literate and which identifies itself with saints, scholars, poets, etc. I cannot explain this. There seems to be a tradition in many places of not writing as much as in other countries. I do not know whether this is a social matter or if it is related to skills.

The manner in which these levels were developed is extremely sophisticated. While they are arbitrary to some extent, the analysis they provide give them a stability. I found it generally pervasive.

Senator Ó Murchú: Dr. Morgan made reference to the fact that those with low literacy skills tend to watch more television. Did his research establish the environmental impact on improving literacy skills? In particular, I am referring to the impact of television. Some years ago when I first visited the US I realised that there is more than one type of English. Americans refer to biscuits as cookies and they pronounce renaissance and aluminium differently. Also, homely means ugly. There is a whole list of similar words. Obviously that is coming with the current increase in the number of television stations. We are also subject to newspeak, political speak and business speak, and the jargon is constantly changing. The “Celtic tiger” is here today but will be gone tomorrow.

Orthodoxy is disappearing from language but relatively orthodox terms are still used when teaching language in school. However, the average young person is exposed to something different in the home environment and among peers. Having identified the problems in the education system, I presume it is possible to do something about them through legislation and control. However, it is not as easy to legislate for or to control the environment. What were Dr. Morgan’s findings in this regard and what are his suggestions to make the environment more supportive of improving literacy skills?

Deputy Naughten: A two-pronged approach is necessary to a report such as this. The first approach is prevention with regard to the younger age group to ensure the problem does not progress. The second is to cure the problems of people who missed out in the education system. The report examines the attitudes of people and finds that many of them overestimate their literacy ability. It will be difficult to encourage those people to return to the education system because they do not believe they have a problem. Has this problem been tackled in other countries and has a suitable remedy been found?

The vast majority of adult education courses are paid for by employees or those attending the courses. Employers only pay for 25 per cent of the courses. Should greater onus not be put on employers in this regard? After all, employers will reap long-term benefits from having a well educated workforce. Perhaps greater pressure should be put on employers to implement these courses.

The report found that one-fifth of respondents had never read a book from a public library. Is there a need to make such libraries more user friendly and improve their facilities by providing access to the Internet and so forth? Perhaps libraries could have one-stop-shops to provide information on social welfare, county council and health board entitlements. That would encourage people to step in the doors of public libraries. Once inside they might be tempted to pick up a book and read it.

Literacy problems have implications for State application forms and, as Deputy Bruton mentioned earlier, awareness of the contents of medications. One of the major problems with the availability of medications in this and other countries is the fact that people do not read the instructions for taking them. It is an important problem for the pharmaceutical industry. Application forms, whether they are for social welfare entitlements, headage payments and so forth, will have to be more user friendly, in view of the findings of the report. Have these issues been discussed with relevant Departments and the European Union? There appears to be serious problems with the type of application forms issued by the EU to member states. Farmers and others have difficulty filling them.

Dr. Morgan: Senator Ó Murchú made a number of good points. The problem with television is that it can be blamed too easily. While children might watch the television for up to five hours each day and it can lead to the effects the Senator mentioned, there are usually other factors in their lives to which I referred earlier. These factors mesh together. Television viewing is often associated with problems but there are usually other factors. Most children take television in their stride and the children who do not usually have other problems. Although television is a feature which we should not ignore and its power is as significant as the Senator described, it is inappropriate to believe it to be more powerful than it is.

The overestimation of literacy skills is significant. A great number of people wanted to do courses but the courses were not available. We have a long way to go before we can cope with their problems. Access is a major issue, as are the differences in the cost element. Men are more likely to have their courses paid for by employers than women. That has an important influence on access.

With regard to public libraries, schools have an important role. Access to books is the single important feature that emerges from recent research. The approach being developed in the new curriculum changes, which is based on a complete book approach, should help literacy skills. It has already done so at post-primary level where there have been incredible advances in English. I am confident that this approach will improve matters significantly.

The Deputy is right about application forms. People had most problems with application forms and Government forms. They found such forms unfriendly, which will not surprise anybody.

Deputy Farrelly: Is it any wonder that when public representatives send forms to members of the public they are back to the clinic the following week for help in filling them? If one calculated the percentage of such instances it would probably be close to the figures in the report.

Lack of classes is a serious problem. Where there were more classes did the people who required help attend

Dr. Morgan: I agree with what the Deputy has said. Deputy Farrelly raised an interesting point about what novel approaches we could take. To return to a point them or did they adopt the attitude that they did not wish to acknowledge they had problems? I was speaking to a teacher recently who works in this area. She said she can handle six people per class adequately but if there are more in the class she cannot do so. The resources to deal with the numbers involved are not being provided and not enough classes are being provided for the number who wish to attend. Where can a line be drawn? What increase in finances and classes would be required to deal with over 45 year olds? As a result of this survey and other research, the problem is being picked up in schools and more work is being done to prevent people having such literacy problems in years to come.

Deputy P. Carey: As long as a significant number of primary school children with the reading abilities of eight year olds transfer to post-primary schools, there are no grounds for complacency about literacy. In a hamfisted way - there is no evidence of a co-ordinated approach - we are making inroads and improving standards through programmes such as Early Start, Breaking the Cycle, resource teachers and so forth.

With regard to the lack of library facilities in schools, the current capitation grant per primary school student is still £1 per year. That would not buy a comic, not to mind a book.

Some schools can hold book fairs and get parents to buy books. However, in the schools where books are most needed the resources are not available to buy them. The little involvement I had in research indicated to me that if there were books in a classroom the children were encouraged to read them and standards improved.

I am long enough around to recall that, although crude, the first research into reading comprehension was done in the late 1960s. I remember there being a fraught debate about bilingualism and the causes of the 12 year olds in sixth class in Dublin being up to 27 months behind their counterparts in British schools. We have come a long way since then. However, the children who were tested at that time are now in the over 45 years group. What are the policy implications of the significant cohort of people with seriously deficient literacy skills?

With regard to the provision and delivery of adult education services, as Dr. Morgan has pointed out there is an increasing tendency in the last seven or eight years for people to go on courses related to professional advancement or VTOS courses. Successive Governments have cut back subventions to VECs to help them provide their traditional hobby type courses, which encouraged a lot of people who did not have great levels of literacy to come into the schools. This has inhibited the further involvement of that cohort in adult education. What can we do to make adult or community education more attractive and effective for those who are on or below level one? I am concerned about those over 45 years and the lack of capacity in the system to address their needs.

Deputy Richard Bruton made, in Youthreach classes one may come across people who have left school because they are fed up with it and the last thing they want to encounter is literacy taught in a conventional way, yet they need literacy skills. The best Youthreach programmes are those which try novel ways to achieve the same result. There is a great deal to be said for looking for basic skills in literacy but in a novel way. I am against the ‘back to basics’ approach because I equate it with spellings and tables, which only have a certain amount of mileage, so to speak. An approach using music and drama could be significant.

With regard to libraries, in primary schools we have an average of four books per student in school libraries, whereas Denmark, for example, has 34 per student. I am glad the Deputy referred to the research by John MacNamara because he taught me. I have some knowledge of the adult education programmes. Some of the women’s groups do incredibly well with brilliant programmes. They have a real community involvement in some places, Ballyfermot being one I know. It is better to look at models of good practice. There have been great advances with women’s groups but men have not been as successful.

Deputy O’Shea: Many of the questions have been addressed already. The figures indicate that 60 per cent of early school leavers are at level one literacy. There is also a problem with verbalising skills. I was in St. Patrick’s during Dr. MacNamara’s time and I remember him saying that a child’s ability to absorb a language is in decline from the age of 5 onwards. I do not know if views have changed on that.

There is a tendency among disadvantaged adults to gravitate towards a verbal shorthand. Many of these adults have no interest in the constructive aspects of how society is managed or administered. They have no interest in banks or building societies, for example, because of their financial circumstances.

The influence of television and video games is significant. Children are becoming more passive and the mechanism of learning by doing is not operating as much as it did in the past and that is not good for young people. A wide range of newspapers, comics and magazines is available on all subjects and at that level of exercising literacy skills there is a wider pitch to play on, so to speak. Has this had an effect which came to light in the research?

We need to focus on verbal skills. One may absorb information but if one does not have verbal skills one cannot communicate it and, therefore, one cannot own it.

One will also have difficulties converting that information laterally into reading and writing.

Senator Coogan: While the initiatives may be weak, in the opinion of Dr. Morgan, and not multiple enough to attack the difficulties with literacy per se, at least there is something going on. I have been informed that in the quantitative literacy area or numeracy skills not enough is being done and that there is a grave imbalance between the two. Is that so? What is the relationship between the lack of both skills? I believe it is strong.

Deputy Hanafin: Looking at the tests and the various links, I can understand why some people would have difficulty with some of the documents set. The clock radio would be quite incomprehensible to most people. Yet, some people can set the clock radio, video or computer in a flash. They can manage very well without the literacy skills to understand the manual because they have an understanding of how to do the task anyway. There is no incentive for them to use or to read the manuals.

With regard to adult education, Dun Laoghaire VEC has a proposal to put all its funding into the regular education programmes for adults, not into the hobby type courses. Is this a bad idea? Will they lose the opportunity to bring people into the system and encourage them to do other courses? In relation to our hope for the future, if one looks at the literacy skills of people over the age of 45, one might think that as our younger population gets older our literacy skills will improve. On the other hand, that must be balanced by the lack of parental involvement and the fact that people only read the tabloids and whatever levels we have reached the present might become stunted and that, in fact, there is no prospect of improvement.

Dr. Morgan: I agree with the point the Deputy made about verbal shorthand and the importance of verbal skills in relation to reading. Many people would say they failed at reading because they do not have the spoken word initially. That is a very important feature.

With regard to the variety of printed material available, there is a lot of evidence to show that the more there is of any kind of material the better. Obviously some kinds of material are much better than others but in some cases where certain books are used there is a dramatic improvement in reading skills. Approximately 80 per cent of remedial teachers’ time is spent on traditional literacy, not mathematics or quantitative literacy. This is something which must be looked at. There is some sense that the ability to decode the printed word is the most basic need, but it is interesting that in the real world that is not the case.

Many people with poor literacy skills can function adequately. They can be excellent mechanics and so on but they fail in the area of training. People are hindered by their lack of literacy skills, firstly, in that they do not have the qualifications and, secondly, in the area of training. Of course, in practice what happens is that one person will read the manuals and pass on the information to the others. It is interesting that in some circumstances literacy skills are sometimes over-valued. People who do not have literacy skills can compensate brilliantly in certain respects, the problem is there are so many complications to get to that point.

Overall the problem is not a national one where there is a need to get more people into third level education. The real problem is that 6 per cent to 8 per cent who have a variety of social and personal problems, whose parents are getting relatively worse off, who are in schools that are relatively poorer and who will never get anywhere near third level and where there is a problem with crime, drugs and so on. That is not just an educational issue and that is where the national priority should lie.

Chairman: I thank Dr. Morgan for a very interesting presentation and his detailed answers to many questions.

I suggest to the committee that we invite the Minister of State, Deputy O’Dea, to our next meeting on 3 March to address the committee. I suggest also that the Secretary General of the Department of Education and Science be invited to discuss the policy issue. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The Joint Committee adjourned at 6.30 p.m.