Committee Reports > List of Committees > Joint > 1985 > Committee on Building Land > Report - Building Land

Appendix 11

Proceedings of the Committee

Thursday, 24 March, 1983

1. The Committee met at 11.30 a.m.

Members present

2. The following members were present: Deputies Fitzsimons, MacSharry, Molloy, Quinn (Minister of State at the Department of the Environment), Reynolds, Walsh and Wyse; Senators Fallon, Ferris, Fitzsimons and B. Ryan.

An apology for inability to attend was received from Senator Durcan.

3. Election of Chairman and Vice-Chairman

On the proposal of Deputy Walsh, Deputy Molloy was unanimously elected Chairman.

On the proposal of Deputy MacSharry, Senator Ferris was unanimously elected Vice-Chairman.

4. The Committee deliberated.

5. The Committee adjourned at 11.40 a.m. until 4 p.m. on Wednesday, 27th April, 1983.

Wednesday, 27 April, 1983

1. The Committee met at 4 p.m.

Members present

2. The following members were present:

Deputy Robert Molloy (in the Chair); Deputies Begley, Coveney, Keating, MacSharry, Quinn (Minister of State at the Department of the Environment), Reynolds, Skelly, Walsh and Wyse; Senators Bulbulia, Cregan, Durcan, Fallon, Ferris, Fitzsimons and B. Ryan.

An apology for inability to attend was received from Deputy Doyle.

Deputy Begley tendered his apologies for being unable to attend the meeting of the 24th March, 1983.

Duration of meeting

3. Ordered: that the meeting be of one hour duration.

4. Procedure: Verbatim Report, Admission of Press and Visitors

Ordered: that while the Committee would reserve the right to go into public session and thereby be officially verbatim reported, its meetings would be held in private session. Provided that if and when formal evidence was to be taken this decision would be reviewed.

Ordered: that the Press and Visitors be admitted only to such public sessions as the Committee desired.

Ordered: that the Committee, if it so desired, would issue statements from time to time to the Press on the work undertaken by the Committee.

5. Privilege of Witnesses before Joint Committee

The Committee noted that absolute privilege was not conferred on witnesses who were not Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas in respect of any utterance made before the Joint Committee nor was privilege conferred on persons, whether Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas or not, who sent documents to the Committee.

6. Ordered: that if or when evidence was required to be taken by the Committee the position regarding privilege would be explained to the witness to be examined, if so requested; and if, as a result, the witness declined to give evidence formally in public session then the Committee would take such evidence informally in private session.

7. Specialist Advice

Ordered: (i) in view of the commitments made by successive Governments on the record of both Houses of the Oireachtas in respect of the provision of advice from the Attorney General to the Committee and assistance to be provided by other Departments of State and (ii) since the Committee was not in a position to be aware of its exact requirements, it was not necessary at this stage for the Committee to seek further assistance in the form of specialist advice. The Committee reserved its position on such advice pending future developments and without prejudice to any action it might deem appropriate in the future.

8. Staffing of Joint Committee

The Committee noted its present staff allocation of one clerk to the Committee and one clerical typist and reserved its position on staffing requirements without prejudice to any action it might deem appropriate in the future.

9. Submissions and Memoranda Received by Former Committee

The Committee noted the current position regarding submissions and memoranda received by the Committee.

Ordered: that submissions be invited from those County and Borough Councils and interested organisations which did not respond to the invitation of the former Committee.

10. Ordered: that those councils, persons or organisations which had made submissions did not need to re-submit their submissions.

11. Ordered: that advertisements be placed in the Press to that effect, and that the 30th June, 1983 be the closing date for the receipt of submissions.

12. Programme of Work

The Committee noted that the Attorney General’s advice on the constitutional aspects of building land, which was to be made available to the Committee via the Department of the Environment, would not be forthcoming in the immediate future and that further documentation was required from the Departments of Finance and the Environment in order that the Committee be informed of the up-to-date position concerning building land.

13. Ordered: that the committee consider the submissions received to date with a view to extracting a number of policy options therefrom, together with those of the Kenny Report*, (majority and minority) upon which the Committee would proceed to begin its deliberations.

14. Ordered: that any matter of substance which the Members of the Committee felt to be relevant be raised with the Chairman and be put on the Agenda for future meetings of the Committee.

The following matters were raised for consideration at future meetings:-

(1)In the context of the operation of the Planning Acts-

(a)the operation of section 4 of the City and County Management Act, 1955,

(b)present procedures for the review of development plans,

(c)An Bord Pleanala.

(2)Register of Members’ interests in the area of land and building land.

(3)Existing land banks of serviced land in major centres, whether acquired by local authorities or not, which remain undeveloped.

(4)Local authority charges: development levies.

Adjournment

15. The meeting adjourned at 5.05 p.m. sine die.

Wednesday, 8 June, 1983

1. The Committee met at 4.00 p.m.

2. Members present

The following Members were present:

Deputy Robert Molloy (in the chair); Deputies Begley, Coveney, Doyle, Quinn (Minister of State at the Department of the Environment), Shatter, Skelly and Wyse; Senators Bulbulia, Cregan, Fallon, Ferris and Fitzsimons.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputy Walsh and Senators Durcan and B. Ryan.

3. Duration of Meetings

Ordered: that, in general, meetings of the Joint Committee be of one hour duration.

4. Divisions

Ordered: that Dail Standing Order (71) take precedence over the corresponding Seanad Standing Order (67) in the taking of divisions.

5. Submissions: report on progress

The Committee noted that -

in accordance with its decision at the last meeting, submissions had been re-invited from those county and borough councils and interested organisations which had not responded to the invitation of the former Committee; those which had made submissions had been informed that it was not necessary to re-submit their submissions; and that press advertisements to that effect had been placed in the four daily newspapers on Tuesday, 3rd May, 1983.

6. The Committee deliberated.

7. The Committee noted the following policy options:

(a)Designated areas schemes:-

(i)Designated Areas Scheme (Kenny Majority Report)

(ii)Pre-emption and Levy Scheme: (Kenny Minority Report)

(iii)Local Government (Building Land) Bill, 1982.

(b)Tax/Levy Regime

(i)Capital Gains Tax, Income/Corporation Tax, Value-Added Tax;

(ii)Levy on development of land-

(iii)Annual tax on potential development land plus final payment on development.

(c)Open free market option.

8. Ordered: that information be requested from An Foras Forbartha in respect of

(i)the projected demand for housing and building land over the next decade or so,

(ii)the trend in building land prices over recent years, and

that further information be obtained in respect of the position pertaining in Britain in the period since the publication of the Kenny Report.

9. Ordered: that the next meeting of the Committee take place when either

(i)the Committee received the Attorney General’s advice on the Kenny Report, or

(ii)the 30th June deadline for the receipt of submissions had expired.

10. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 5.15 p.m. sine die.

Wednesday, 13 July, 1983

1. The Committee met at 2.35 p.m.

2. Members present

Deputy Robert Molloy (in the chair); Deputies MacSharry, Quinn (Minister of State at the Department of the Environment), and Wyse; Senators Bulbulia, Cregan, Fallon, Ferris and Fitzsimons.

Apoligies for inability to attend were received from Deputies Begley and Shatter.

3. Submissions: report on progress

The Committee noted that submissions had been received on the expiry of the deadline of 30th June, 1983 for receipt of submissions.

4. Ordered: that submissions be accepted after the expiry date where the organisation concerned had indicated to the Committee before the deadline that it was in the process of preparing a submission.

5. Receipt of Attorney General’s Advice: programme of work

The Committee agreed that the receipt of the promised Attorney General’s advice on designated areas schemes was a necessary prerequisite for further deliberations.

Ordered: that before the next meeting the following documents would need to be provided to the Committee:

(i)The advice of the Attorney General on the designated areas schemes, in conjunction with the promised memorandum from the Department of the Environment on the Kenny Report.

(ii)an updating of the discussion document prepared for the meeting of the 8th June, 1983 incorporating a summary of all the submissions received by the Committee.

6. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 3.05 p.m. sine die.

Wednesday, 16 November, 1983

1. The Committee met at 7.08 p.m.

2. Members present

Deputy Robert Molloy (in the chair); Deputies Coveney, Fitzsimons, MacSharry, Quinn (Minister of State at the Department of the Environment), Shatter and Wyse; Senators Fallon, Ferris, Fitzsimons and B. Ryan.

An apology for inability to attend was received from Deputy Doyle.

3. Ordered: that submissions received after the appointed deadline of 30th June, 1983 up to and including 16th November, 1983 be accepted by the Committee.

4. Legal Advice on the Kenny Report

The Joint Committee considered and accepted the legal advice received from the legal adviser to the Department of the Environment that the Designated Areas Schemes of the Kenny Report and the Local Government (Building Land) Bill, 1982 were unconstitutional.

5. Other Policy Options

The Committee noted the following policy options:

(1)Tax/Levy Regime

(i)Capital Gains Tax, Special Sales Tax, Income/Corporation Tax, Value-Added Tax.

(ii)Levy on development value of land

(a)Batterment levy

(b)Levy on disposal or development

(c)Levy on right to development of land

(d)Development land tax

(e)Levy on zoning

(iii)(a) Annual tax on potential development land plus final payment on development

(b)Site value tax.

(2)Open free market option

(3)Reform of Planning System

(4)Land Management

6. Resolved: that members of the Committee could put forward further policy options as they saw fit for consideration at future meetings.

7. Tax/Levy Option

Resolved: that the Committee consider the tax levy option at its next meeting and that an example of a land development transaction displaying all the existing charges thereon be provided for the next meeting.

8. Ordered: that a list of reading material identifying the submissions and paragraphs of the Committee’s two discussion documents most relevant to the tax/levy option be circulated before the next meeting.

9. The Committee noted that in respect of requests for information arising from previous meetings concerning

(i)recent trends in land prices

(ii)projected demand for building land and

(iii)existing land banks of serviced land in urban areas

the position was as follows:-

in regard to (i): relevant information was contained in Appendix 2 to the submission from An Foras Forbartha.

in regard to (ii) and (iii) information was still awaited from the Department of the Environment.

10. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 8.00 p.m. until 7.00 p.m. on Wednesday, 7 December, 1983.

Wednesday, 7 December, 1983

1. The Committee met at 5.17 p.m.

2. Members present

Deputy Robert Molloy (in the chair); Deputies Coveney, Fitzsimons, Skelly, Walsh and Wyse; Senators Bulbulia, Cregan, Fallon, Ferris, Fitzsimons and Ryan.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputy Quinn, (Minister of State at the Department of the Environment), Deputies MacSharry, Reynolds and Shatter.

3. Death of Father of Clerk to the Joint Committee

The Chairman announced the death of Mr. Con Coughlan, father of the former Clerk to the Joint Committee, Mr. Kieran Coughlan. The Joint Committee stood in silence as a mark of respect to the late Mr. Coughlan.

4. Appointment of New Clerk to Joint Committee

The Chairman announced the appointment of a new Clerk to the Joint Committee, and informed the Joint Committee that Mr. Coughlan would continue to have overall administrative responsibility for the Joint Committee, and for two other Oireachtas Committees.

The Joint Committee expressed its appreciation for the work done by Mr. Coughlan for the Committee during his period of service with them.

5. Newspaper “Leaks”

The Chairman raised the matter of a report in the Sunday Tribune of 27 November, 1983 concerning the decision which the Joint Committee had made at its meeting of 16 November, 1983 to accept the legal advice on the constitutionality of the Kenny Report received from the legal adviser to the Department of the Environment. The Chairman condemned the leaking of what amounted to a record of the proceedings of that meeting to a newspaper. The Committee agreed that such a leak was to be deplored, and restated its commitment to the decision taken at the meeting of 27 April, 1983, that its meetings would be held in private session.

6. Resolved: that all members of the Committee take special care that information on the Committee’s deliberations did not reach the newspapers.

7. Interim Report of the Joint Committee The Chairman brought forward an Interim Report as follows:

The Report was agreed to.

Ordered: to report accordingly.

8. Work Programme

Resolved: that the Committee agreed to meet for a full day on two successive days during the Christmas Recess, on Wednesday 18 January, 1984, from 11.30 a.m. to 6.00 p.m. and on Thursday 19 January, 1984, from 11.00 a.m. to 5.00 p.m.

9. Ordered: that the following persons be invited to attend before the Committee:

The Chairman and Chief Executive, an Bord Pleanala; Mr. Robert Jennings, of An Foras Forbartha, and officials from the Department of Finance.

10. Ordered: that the Chairman of an Bord Pleanála be requested to submit a memorandum to the Committee setting out the reasons behind the delays in dealing with planning appeals.

11. Adjournment

The meeting adjourned at 6.05 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Wednesday 17 January, 1984.

Wednesday, 11 January, 1984

1. The Committee met at 11.30 a.m.

Members present

2. The following members were present:-

Deputy Robert Molloy (in the chair); Deputies Begley, Doyle, Skelly and Wyse; Senators Bulbulia, Cregan, Durcan, Fallon, Ferris, Fitzsimons and B. Ryan.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputy Ruairi Quinn, Minister for Labour, Deputies Coveney, J. Fitzsimons and MacSharry.

3. Death of Mr. Sean McEntee

The Chairman announced that the funeral of the late Mr. Sean McEntee was to take place on the following day, at the time previously agreed by the Committee for its next meeting.

Resolved: that the time of the meeting be altered to allow those who wished to attend the funeral.

4. Recording of the Proceedings

Ordered: that a tape recording of the meeting be made to facilitate the preparation of the minutes, that no verbatim report of the proceedings would be made available, and that the Committee would continue with its deliberations in private session.

5. Witnesses examined

The following witnesses were examined:

Mr. R. Jennings

(Senior Research Officer, An Foras Forbartha),

Ms. Berna Grist,

(former Research Officer, An Foras Forbartha).

6. The witnesses withdrew.

7. Sitting suspended

The sitting was suspended at 1.15 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. today.

8. The Committee met again at 2.30 p.m.

9. Witnesses Examined

The following witnesses were examined:

Mr. Justice Murnaghan, Chairman,

(An Bord Pleanala),

Mr. T. Ford, Chief Executive,

(An Bord Pleanala).

The witnesses withdrew.

10. Witnesses Examined

The following witnesses were examined:

Officals from the Department of Finance and the Office of the Revenue Commissioners.

11. The witnesses withdrew.

12. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 6 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Thursday, 12th January, 1984.

Thursday, 12 January, 1984

1. The Committee met at 2.00 p.m.

2. The following Members were present:-

Deputy Robert Molloy (in the chair), Deputies Doyle, Shatter, Skelly, Walsh and Wyse; Senators Fallon, J. Fitzsimons and B. Ryan.

Apologies were received from Deputy M. Keating.

3. Meetings of the Committee

Ordered: that the Committee meet again on Thursday, 26th January, 1984 at 11 a.m. and on Wednesday, 1st February, 1984 at 4 p.m.

4. Ordered: that the following persons be invited to attend before the Committee:

Thursday, 26th January, 1984 at 11 a.m. Officials from the Department of the Environment and Mr. N. Mansergh, a planning officer with Cork Corporation.

Wednesday, 1st February, 1984 at 4 p.m.

Representatives from the Construction Industry Federation, the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors and Professor F. Convery, Resource and Environmental Policy Centre, U.C.D.

5. Death of Officer of the Houses of the Oireachtas

The Chairman requested the Clerk to convey to the wife and family of the late Mr. Frank Geoghegan, Clerk Administrator (Services), the sincere sympathy of the Joint Committee on his tragic death. The Joint Committee stood in silence as a mark of respect to the late Mr. Geoghegan.

6. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 3.20 p.m. until 5.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 1 February, 1984.

Wednesday, 1 February, 1984

1. The Committee met at 5.30 p.m.

Members present

2. The following members were present:-

Deputy Robert Molloy (in the chair); Deputies Begley, Coveney, Doyle, MacSharry, Reynolds, Shatter, Skelly, Walsh and Wyse; Senators Bulbulia, Cregan, Durcan, Ferris and J. Fitzsimons.

3. Correspondence from Chairman, An Bord Pleanala

The Chairman circulated a letter which he had received from Mr. Justice Murnaghan, Chairman of An Bord Pleanala, referring to the meeting of the Committee of 11 January 1984 which was attended by the Chairman of An Bord Pleanala and Mr. T. Forde, Chief Executive of An Bord Pleanala. The Chairman referred to the request contained in the letter, that certain questions and the answers given to those questions by Mr. Justice Murnaghan be expunged from the records of the Committee.

The Chairman informed the Committee that he had been informed of an inquiry by the Department of the Environment to the Clerk of the Committee regarding the taped records of the meeting of the Committee. The Chairman informed the Committee that in view of the pending court case between members of An Bord Pleanala and the Minister for the Environment, and in view of the approach which had been made by the Department of the Environment to the Clerk he had instructed the Clerk to seal the tapes of the transcripts of the meeting of 11 January 1984 and to deposit them for safe-keeping with the Clerk of the Dail. This had now been done, and the Chairman requested that the Committee should now decide what should be done with the tapes and transcripts.

4. Ordered:

(1)that the official record of the meeting concerned be retained in the custody of the Clerk of the Dail.

(2)that the Committee seek legal advice on the correct action which it should take in relation to the tapes of the meeting in the light of the imminent court case between the Chairman of An Bord Pleanala, the members of An Bord Pleanala and the Minister for the Environment and the possibility of the tapes being sub-poenaed as evidence.

(3)that in the event of the Committee’s deciding to record the proceedings of any meeting to which witnesses had been invited to come before the Committee, that such persons should be specifically informed of the decision to tape the proceedings before the commencement of their discussions with the Committee.

5. Ordered: that the Clerk write to the Chairman of An Bord Pleanala requesting additional information in respect of the time spent by members of An Bord in dealing with planning appeals.

6. Re-assignment of Supervisory Clerk to the Committee

The Chairman announced the appointment of Mr. Kieran Coughlan, Supervisory Clerk to the Committee, to the post of Clerk Assistant of the Seanad. The Chairman on behalf of all the members congratulated Mr. Coughlan on his appointment and thanked Mr. Coughlan for his excellent work and outstanding service to the Committee.

7. Specialist Services

Resolved: that the appropriate steps be taken to seek an alteration in the Orders of Reference of the Committee to enable it to engage the services of specialist advisers and assistance, to assist with the preparation of a Report by the deadline of 31 March 1984.

8. Resolved: that a sub-committee be appointed to investigate the feasibility of recruiting specialised assistance and if necessary to interview individual specialists.

The Committee appointed the Chairman Deputy Molloy, the Vice-Chairman Senator Ferris and Deputy Liam Skelly to the sub-committee.

9. Ordered: that the sub-committee meet at 12 noon on Tuesday 7 February 1984.

10. Witnesses Examined

The following witness was examined:

Mr. N. Mansergh, (a planning officer with Cork Corporation).

Pursuant to the decision taken earlier by the Committee he was informed that the proceedings of the meeting were being tape recorded.

In accordance with the decision taken at the meeting of 11 January 1984, the Committee went into private session.

11. The meeting continued in private session. The witness withdrew.

12. Resolved: that the proposed discussions with the officials from the Department of the Environment be deferred, owing to the lateness of the hour, and that they be invited to attend before the next meeting together with Professor F. Covery, Resource and Environmental Policy Centre, University College, Dublin.

13. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 7.10 p.m. until 5.00 p.m. on Wednesday 8 February 1984.

Wednesday, 8 February, 1984

1. The Committee met at 6.30 p.m.

Members present

2. The following members were present:-

Deputy Robert Molloy (in the chair); Deputy Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputies Coveney, Doyle, Jim Fitzsimons, MacSharry, McLoughlin, Shatter, Skelly, Walsh and Wyse; Senators Cregan, Fallon, Ferris, J. Fitzsimons and B. Ryan.

3. Announcement of appointment of Members to the Committee

The Chairman announced that the Committee of Selection had discharged Deputies Michael Begley and Ruairi Quinn (Minister for Labour) from the Joint Committee and had appointed Deputies Fergus O’Brien (Minister of State at Department of the Environment) and Frank McLoughlin in substitution for them.

4. Resolved: that a tape recording of the meeting be made to facilitate the preparation of the minutes, and that the invited officials from the Department of the Environment and Professor Convery be so informed at the beginning of the meeting.

5. Newspaper “Leaks”

The Committee unanimously condemned the leaking of correspondence circulated at the meeting of 1 February, 1984 and the leaking of confidential discussions which had taken place on a particular sensitive topic.

6. Resolved: that the holding of the Committee’s meetings in public session be placed on the agenda of the next meeting.

7. Specialist Services

The Chairman announced that the sub-Committee appointed at the last meeting had met with officials from An Foras Forbartha and that An Foras Forbartha was willing to provide specialised technical assistance to the Committee and to assist it in the completion of the Committee’s final Report.

8. Ordered: that assistance by An Foras Forbartha be provided to the Committee on a part-time basis; and that there be no extra staff recruited by the Committee. The Chairman reported that he was now prepared to recommend to the Committee that the Committee appoint Mr. R. Jennings, Senior Research Officer, Construction Division, An Foras Forbartha as a technical adviser to the Committee. The Committee agreed.

9. Ordered: that the Committee seek a change in its Orders of Reference to enable it to seek the services of specialist advisers.

10. Correspondence from Chairman, An Bord Pleanála

The Chairman circulated a further letter which he had received from the Chairman of An Bord Pleanála (31 January, 1984). The contents of the letter were noted and it was decided to acknowledge receipt of the letter.

The Committee noted that information had been sought from the Attorney General’s Office on the legal position of the Committee’s records in the light of the pending court case.

Ordered: that the Attorney General’s reply to the Committee’s request be awaited.

11. Witnesses examined

Officials from the Department of the Environment were examined. Pursuant to the decision taken by the Committee at the meeting of 1 February, 1984 they were informed that the proceedings of the meeting were being tape recorded.

12. In accordance with the decision taken at the meeting of 11 January, 1984 the Committee went into private session.

The Chairman thanked the officials for the extensive material and helpful assistance which the Department had supplied to the Committee.

13. The witnesses withdrew.

14. Witnesses examined

The following witness was examined:

Professor F. Convery, Resource and Environmental Policy Centre, University College, Dublin.

Pursuant to the decision taken at the meeting of 1 February, 1984, the Committee informed him that the proceedings of the meeting were being tape recorded.

15. The meeting continued in private session.

The witness withdrew.

16. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 8.30 p.m. until 6.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 15 February, 1984.

Wednesday, 15 February, 1984

1. The Committee met at 6.30 p.m.

2. Members present

The following members were present:-

Senator M. Ferris (in the chair); Deputy Fergus O’Brien,Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputies MacSharry and Walsh; Senators Durcan, Fallon, Fitzsimons and B. Ryan.

Apoligies for inability to attend were received from the Chairman, Deputy R. Molloy and Deputies Doyle, Skelly and Reynolds and Senator Bulbulia.

3. The Chairman conveyed the apologies of the witnesses from the Construction Industry Federation who regretted that they were unable to attend the meeting.

4. Copies of a reply from the Minister for Industry, Trade, Commerce and Tourism to the Chairman’s letter of 2 February, 1984, regarding the Committee’s request for a change in its Orders of Reference were circulated to members. The Committee noted that the request was receiving urgent attention.

5. Resolved: that a tape recording of the meeting be made to facilitate the preparation of the minutes, and that the invited witnesses from the Institution of Chartered Surveyors be so informed at the beginning of the meeting.

6. In the absence of the Chairman, it was decided to defer discussions on the holding of meetings in public session.

7. Witnesses Examined

The following witnesses were examined:

Mr. F. Devlin, Mr. W. Nolan, Mr. J. Gahon and Mr. D. Pierce, (Institution of Chartered Surveyors.)

8. Pursuant to the decision taken at the meeting of 1 February, 1984, they were informed that the meeting was being tape recorded.

The Committee noted that the Institution had recently changed its title to “Society of Chartered Surveyors in Ireland”.

9. In accordance with the decision taken at the meeting of 11 January, 1984, the Committee went into private session.

10. The witnesses withdrew.

11. Following the conclusion of discussions, the Committee complemented the Society on the quality of its submissions and of its presentation to the Committee and suggested that they might wish to make public the contents of their submission in order to stimulate further discussion.

12. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 8.30 p.m. until 12 noon on Wednesday, 22 February, 1984.

Wednesday, 22 February, 1984

1. The Committee met at 12 noon.

2. Members present

The following members were present:-

Deputy Robert Molloy (in the chair); Deputy Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputies Coveney, Doyle, MacSharry, McLoughlin, Shatter, Skelly and Wyse; Senators Durcan, Fallon, Ferris and J. Fitzsimons.

3. Resolved: that a tape recording of the meeting be made to facilitate the preparation of the minutes, that the invited witnesses from the Construction Industry Federation be so informed at the beginning of the meeting.

4. Copies of a further letter received from the deputy Chairman, an Bord Pleanála, were circulated and it was decided to defer consideration of the item to the next meeting.

5. Ordered: that the Attorney General’s Office be asked to provide a definite response (before the next meeting) to the Committee’s request for clarification on the questions of law which had arisen following the receipt of the letter of 17 January, 1984, from the Chairman of an Bord Pleanála.

6. Witnesses examined

The following witnesses were examined:-

Mr. M. Greene, Mr. F. Woods, Mr. D. O’Brien, Mr. J. Tiernan (Construction Industry Federation).

7. Pursuant to the decision taken at the meeting of 1 February, 1984, they were informed that the meeting was being tape recorded.

8. In accordance with the decision taken at the meeting of 12 January, 1984, the Committee went into private session.

9. Withdrawal of Chairman and vice-Chairman

At one o’clock the Chairman and vice-Chairman withdrew, as previously announced. Deputy Liam Skelly was nominated and took the Chair for the remainder of the meeting.

The meeting continued in private session.

10. The witnesses withdrew.

11. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 1.25 p.m. until 4.00 p.m. on Wednesday, 29 February, 1984.

Wednesday, 29 February, 1984

1. The Committee met at 4.00 p.m.

2. Members present

The following members were present: Senator Michael Ferris, (in the Chair); Deputies Doyle, MacSharry, Shatter, Skelly and Wyse; Senators Durcan, Fallon and J. Fitzsimons.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputies Keating and McLoughlin.

3. Death of Father of Chairman to the Joint Committee

The Chairman announced the death of Mr. Michael Molloy, father of the Chairman to the Joint Committee, Deputy Robert Molloy. The Joint Committee stood in silence as a mark of respect to the late Mr. Molloy.

4. The Chairman announced that a telegram of sympathy had been sent to the Chairman on behalf of the members of the Joint Committee.

5. Adjournment

Ordered: that as a mark of respect to the memory of the late Mr. Molloy, the Committee to adjourn at 4.20 p.m. until 6.00 p.m. on Wednesday, 7th March, 1984.

Wednesday, 7 March, 1984

1. The Committee met at 6 p.m.

2. Members present:

Deputy Robert Molloy (in the Chair); Deputies Coveney, Doyle, MacSharry, McLoughlin, Shatter, Skelly, Walsh and Wyse; Senators Bulbulia, Durcan, Fallon, J. Fitzsimons and B. Ryan.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputy Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment.

3. The Chairman expressed his thanks to the members for their message of condolence on the occasion of the death of his father.

5. Correspondence

The Committee considered the following items of correspondence:

— letter from the Department of the Environment together with a late submission from Córas Iompair Éireann.

Ordered that the Committee acknowledge receipt of the submissions.

—letters and memorandum from the Construction Industry Federation on mechanical sewerage treatment.

The Committee noted the contents of the letters and memorandum and in particular that the Federation sought a second meeting with the Committee.

6. Ordered: that the Committee agree in principle to a further meeting and that the Construction Industry Federation be asked to submit a list of the particular areas which they wished to discuss further with the Committee.

7. Ordered: that the Department of the Environment and An Foras Forbartha be requested to provide a memorandum to the Committee on the subject of mechanical sewerage treatment plants, with reference to the submission made by the Construction Industry Federation.

8. Ordered: that the city and County Manager, Dublin Co. Council, be requested to supply a memorandum on the merits of the Construction Industry Federation claims regarding the benefits of mechanical sewerage treatment plants.

— letter from Vice-Chairman, An Bord Pleanála.

The Committee noted the contents of the letter.

9. Ordered: that the Committee write to the Chief Executive of An Bord Pleanála, enclosing for his information a copy of the letter from the Vice-Chairman of the Bord, and asking for the information requested in the Committee’s original letter of 7 February, 1984 concerning the procedures and working practices of An Bord Pleanála.

10. The Committee considered the reply received from the office of the Attorney General.

Motion made (Chairman):

“That the tape recordings of the meeting of the Committee held at 2.30 p.m. on 11 January, 1984, at which the Chairman and Chief Executive of An Bord Pleanála attended, be retained in the custody of the Clerk of the Dáil and that the Committee engage a legal adviser to assist them in the matter of the correspondence received from the Chairman of An Bord Pleanála, the Hon. Mr. Justice Murnaghan. Furthermore that appropriate sanction from the Minister for the Public Service be sought for the necessary expenditure.”

Motion agreed to.

11. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 7.10 p.m. until 6 p.m. on Wednesday 14 March, 1984.

Wednesday, 14 March, 1984

1. The Committee met at 6.20 p.m.

2. Members present

Deputy Robert Molloy, (in the chair); Deputy Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputies Coveney, Doyle, Jim Fitzsimons, McLoughlin and Wyse; Senators Bulbulia, Fallon and Fitzsimons.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputies MacSharry and Skelly and Senators Durcan, Ferris and B. Ryan.

3. In accordance with the decision taken at the meeting of 7 March, 1984, that the Committee engage a legal adviser, the Committee appointed a sub-Committee consisting of the Chairman, Deputy R. Molloy, the Vice-Chairman, Senator M. Ferris and the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputy F. O’Brien, to pursue the matter.

4. Discussion of Heads of Draft Report with Technical Adviser from An Foras Forbartha

The Chairman welcomed Mr. R. Jenning of An Foras Forbartha to the meeting, and announced that Mr. Jennings would be assisting the Committee in the preparation and drafting of the Committee’s Report.

5. Ordered: that Mr. Jennings attend all future meetings of the Committee, expect where the Committee should otherwise order.

6. Ordered: following discussion of the proposed heads for a draft Report, that the Committee seek a further extension of the period for reporting back to 31 December, 1984.

7. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 6.50 p.m. until 6 p.m. on Wednesday 21 March, 1984.

Wednesday, 21 March, 1984

1. The Committee met at 6.10 p.m.

2. Members present

The following members were present:-

Senator Michael Ferris, (in the chair), Deputies Coveney, McLoughlin, Reynolds, Skelly and Wyse; Senators Bulbulia, Durcan, Fallon and Fitzsimons.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputy Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputies MacSharry, Walsh and Doyle.

Mr. R. Jennings, technical adviser to the Committee, was in attendance.

3. Following the arrival of the Chairman, Deputy R. Molloy, the Chair was vacated by the Vice-Chairman, Senator M. Ferris.

4. Ordered: that members have the opportunity to nominate the names of persons who might be willing to act as legal adviser to the Committee in the matter of the correspondence with the former Chairman of An Bord Pleanála; that the legal adviser be recruited specifically to answer any queries on matters of law which might arise resulting from this correspondence; that the Committee accept nominations for consideration by the sub-Committee (appointed at meeting of 7 March 1984) at the next meeting of the Committee.

5. Ordered: that the Committee continue to operate in accordance with the decision taken at its second meeting, (27 April 1983). The Chairman brought forward a second Interim Report which was read as follows:

The Interim Report was agreed to

Ordered: to report accordingly.

The Committee deliberated.

6. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 6.50 p.m. until 4 p.m. on Wednesday, 28 March, 1984.

Wednesday, 28 March, 1984

1. The Committee met at 4.00 p.m.

2. Members present

The following members were present:-

Senator Michael Ferris, (in the chair); Deputies Coveney, Doyle, Jim Fitzsimons, MacSharry, McLoughlin, Molloy, Shatter, Skelly and Wyse; Senators Bulbulia, Durcan, Ferris and B. Ryan.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputy Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment.

Mr. R. Jennings, technical adviser to the Committee was in attendance.

3. Resolved: that a tape recording of the meeting be made to facilitate the preparation of the minutes; and that the invited witnesses from the Construction Industry Federation be so informed at the beginning of the meeting.

4. The Committee noted the replies received from the Chief Executive of an Bord Pleanála and Dublin County Council in response to recent letters from the Committee.

5. The Chairman announced that he would accept nominations from members for consideration by the sub-Committee set up to consider the engagement of a legal adviser. The following names were nominated to the Committee:

Mr. John Cooke S.C.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson S.C.

Mr. Peter Kelly, B.L.

Mr. Raymond O’Neill S.C.

Mr. Thomas C. Smyth S.C.

Mr. Rory O’Donnell, Solicitor

6. Ordered: that the sub-Committee met at 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday 4 April, 1984 to consider the names nominated and to select a name for recommendation to the Committee.

7. Witnesses examined

The following witnesses were examined: Mr. M. Greene, Mr. J. Wood, Mr. D.O’Brien, Mr. J. Tiernan, (Construction Industry Federation).

8. Pursuant to the decision taken at the meeting of 1 February 1984 they were informed that the meeting was being tape recorded.

9. In accordance with the decision taken at the meeting of 11 January 1984 the Committee went into private session.

10. At five o’clock the Vice-Chairman stated that he was regrettably compelled to withdraw from the meeting. Deputy Skelly took the Chair for the remainder of the meeting. The meeting continued in private session.

11. The witnesses withdrew.

12. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 5.25 p.m. until 4.00 p.m. on Wednesday 4 April 1984.

Wednesday, 4 April, 1984

1. The Committee met at 4.00 p.m.

2. Members present

The following members were present:-

Senator Michael Ferris, (in the chair); Deputies Doyle, McLoughlin, Skelly and Wyse; Senators Bulbulia, Durcan, Fallon, Fitzsimons and B. Ryan.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from the Chairman, Deputy Robert Molloy, Deputy Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputies J. Fitzsimons and Coveney.

3. The Chairman reported that the sub-Committee on the selection of a legal adviser had met at 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday 14 April, 1984, to consider the names suggested to it. The meeting had been attended by the Vice-Chairman, Senator Ferris, and Deputy Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment. An apology for inability to attend had been received from the Chairman, Deputy Robert Molloy. The Clerk to the Joint Committee had attended. The meeting had considered the career resumes requested by the Clerk from the persons nominated. Two career resumes were received, one from Mr. T. C. Smyth S.C. and one from Mr. J. Cooke S.C. Following discussion it had been agreed to recommend Mr. T. C. Smyth S.C. to the Committee for the post of legal adviser to the Committee. The meeting had concluded at 11.10 a.m.

4. Ordered: that Mr. T.C. Smyth S.C. be requested to accept the position of legal adviser to the Committee in the matter of the correspondence received from the former Chairman of An Bord Pleanála.

The Committee deliberated. Great disorder having arisen, the Chairman adjourned the meeting at 4.25 p.m. until 4 p.m. on Wednesday 11 April, 1984.

Wednesday, 11 April, 1984

1. The Committee met at 4.00 p.m.

2. Members present

The following members were present:-

Deputy Robert Molloy, (in the chair); Deputy Fergus O’Brien Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputies Doyle, MacSharry, McLoughlin, Reynolds, Shatter and Wyse; Senators Bulbulia, Fallon, Ferris, Fitzsimons and B. Ryan.

3. The Committee noted a letter from the Construction Industry Federation expressing the Federation’s thanks for the opportunity of a second meeting with the Committee.

4. Ordered: that the legal adviser to the Committee be briefed in person by the members of the Committee on the background to the correspondence received from the former Chairman of An Bord Pleanála; that the legal adviser have access to, and if required be supplied with, copies of all relevant minutes, documents and letters, with the exception of the tape recordings and transcripts of the tapes of the discussions between Mr. Justice Murnaghan and the Committee.

5. Ordered: that should the legal adviser require access to these tape recordings and transcripts the Committee be required to make a specific decision on the matter.

6. Ordered: that the legal adviser be requested to come before the Committee at an early date to give his opinion on the legal position of the Committee in the matter of the correspondence received from the former Chairman of An Bord Pleanála; and that the opinion of the legal adviser be received in writing by the Committee.

7. The legal adviser to the Committee, Mr. T. C. Smyth S.C. attended before the Committee.

The Committee deliberated.

8. Deputy Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, raised the matter of the disorder which arose at the last meeting of the Committee. Following discussions, the Committee expressed its regret to the Vice-Chairman, Senator M. Ferris for the occurrence of the incident.

9. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 5.00 p.m. until 4.00 p.m. on Wednesday 9 May, 1984.

Wednesday, 9 May, 1984

1. The Committee met at 4.15 p.m.

2. Members present

The following members were present:-

Deputy Robert Molloy, (in the chair); Deputy Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputies Coveney, Doyle, MacSharry, McLoughlin, Skelly and Wyse; Senators Bulbulia, Fitzsimons and B. Ryan.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Senators Durcan, Fallon and Ferris.

Mr. R. Jennings, the technical adviser to the Committee, was in attendance.

3. The Committee noted the receipt of a late submission from the Democratic Socialist Party.

The Committee deliberated.

4. Ordered: that clarification be sought from Dublin County Council on the conflict of information supplied to the Committee on the question of the amount and location of serviced building land currently available.

5. Ordered: that the Department of the Environment be asked to supply up-to-date information in respect of prices for building land throughout the country.

6. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 5.15 p.m. until 4 p.m. on Wednesday, 16 May 1984.

Wednesday, 16 May, 1984

1. The Committee met at 4.10 p.m.

2. Members present

The following members were present:-

Senator Michael Ferris, (in the chair); Deputies Coveney, Doyle, McLoughlin and Walsh;

Senators Bulbulia. Durcan, Fallon and Fitzsimons.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from the Chairman.

3. The Chairman reported that the legal adviser to the Committee, Mr. T.C. Smyth S.C., had informed the Clerk that he was unable to furnish a written opinion to the meeting at this time. Mr. Smyth had given an undertaking that the opinion would be available before next Wednesday (23 May 1984), and that he would make himself available to attend the next meeting of the Committee.

Resolved: that any further discussion on this matter be deferred to the next meeting of the Committee.

4. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 4.25 p.m. until 4 p.m. on Wednesday 23 May 1984.

Wednesday, 23 May, 1984

1. The Committee met at 4.00 p.m.

2. Members present

The following members were present:-

Deputy Robert Molloy, (in the chair); Deputy Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputies Coveney, Doyle, Reynolds, Walsh and Wyse; Senators Bulbulia, Cregan, Durcan, Fallon and Fitzsimons.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputy Skelly and Senator Ferris.

3. The Committee noted the receipt, in writing, of the opinion of the Committee’s legal adviser on the legal position of the Committee in the matter of the correspondence received from the former Chairman of An Bord Pleanála.

Ordered: that the legal adviser to the Committee Mr. T.C. Smyth S.C. be invited to come before the meeting, in order that he might clarify any point of information which members might wish to raise with him.

4. The legal adviser to the Committee, Mr. T.C. Smyth S.C. attended before the Committee.

The Committee deliberated.

5.Motion made (Deputy H. Coveney)

—That the Joint Committee accept the advice given to them by the Committee’s legal adviser, in the matter of the correspondence received from the former Chairman of An Bord Pleanála as follows:-

—‘that a most correct and proper decision has been made by the Committee to put the tapes of the Committee’s meetings of 11 and 12 January, 1984 under seal in the charge of the Clerk of the Dail;

—that the tapes of these meetings ought not to be made available to the former Chairman of An Bord Pleanála or to the Minister for the Environment;

—that the tapes of these meetings ought not to be made available to persons who are now members of the Committee but who on the 11 January were not members of the Committee;

—that the tapes ought not to be destroyed by the Committee;

—that on completion of the work of the Joint Committee, the Joint Committee write to the Clerk of the Dail, instructing the Clerk that the tapes be retained in his custody, and that on the expiry of a period of not less than 30 years from the time of the completion of the work of the Committee, the tapes be then destroyed by the Clerk of the Dáil’.”

Motion agreed to.

6. The Chairman informed the Committee that the Committee’s technical adviser, Mr. R. Jennings, hoped to supply the Committee with a first draft of the Report by mid-June.

7. Ordered: that the Committee meet again on a date and time to be decided by the Chairman, but in any event at least a week following the circulation of the draft Report to members.

8. Adjournment

The meeting adjourned at 5.20 p.m. sine die.

Thursday, 5 July, 1984

1. The Committee met at 4.15 p.m.

2. MEMBERS PRESENT

The following members were present:-

Deputies Robert Molloy, (in the chair), Deputy Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Coveney, McLoughlin, Walsh and Wyse; Senators Fallon and Fitzsimons.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputies Doyle, J. Fitzsimons and Senators Bulbulia, Durcan, Ferris and B. Ryan.

Mr. R. Jennings, technical adviser to the Committee was in attendance.

3. Consideration of Draft Report The Committee deliberated.

4. Ordered:

(1)that the Committee write to Dublin County Council requesting a detailed breakdown, with maps where appropriate, outlining the current supply of fully serviced development land.

(2)that the Department of the Environment be requested to circularise all local authorities requesting details of fully serviced sites in their areas, as follows:

(a)Number of house completions.

(b)Distribution as between estate type and one-off house completions.

(c)Geographic spread from largest urban centre.

(d)Adequacy of supply of sites.

(e)Availability of sites.

(f)Typical sizes.

(g)Typical prices.

(h)Number of local authority sites made available for private or N.B.A. development.

(3)that the most up-to-date figures for land prices in the Dublin area be obtained, where possible.

4. Ordered: that Mr. Jennings be requested to prepare a second draft of the Report for consideration by the Committee, and that the date of the meeting be fixed by the Chairman on completion of the second draft.

5. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 6.30 p.m. sine die.

Wednesday, 31 October, 1984

1. The Committee met at 5.00 p.m.

2. MEMBERS PRESENT

The following members were present:

Deputy R. Molloy, (in the chair), Deputies Coveney and Wyse; Senator Fallon.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputies Doyle, McLoughlin, Reynolds and Shatter and Senators Bulbulia, Ferris and B. Ryan.

3. There being no quorum the Committee adjourned at 5.15 p.m. until 4 p.m. on Wednesday 7 November, 1984.

Wednesday, 7 November, 1984

1. The Committee met at 4.00 p.m.

2. Members present

The following members were present:-

Deputy Robert Molloy, (in the chair); Deputy Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputies Coveney, Doyle, Skelly and Wyse; Senators Bulbulia, Durcan, Fallon, Fitzsimons and B. Ryan.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputies Begley and MacSharry and Senator M. Ferris.

Mr. R. Jennings, the technical adviser to the Committee was in attendance.

3. Ordered: that the proceedings of the Committee be tape recorded, to assist in the preparation of the minutes, and not for verbatim reporting purposes.

4. The Committee noted the receipt of a letter from Senator B. Ryan, setting out his reservations to the Draft Report.

5. Consideration of Draft Report

The Committee deliberated.

6. Adjournment

The meeting adjourned at 5.30 p.m. until 4.00 p.m. on Wednesday, 14 November 1984.

Wednesday, 14 November, 1984

1. The Committee met at 4.00 p.m.

2. Members present

The following members were present:-

Deputy Robert Molloy, (in the chair); Deputies Begley, Coveney, Doyle, Shatter, Walsh and Wyse; Senators Cregan, Durcan, Fallon, Ferris, Fitzsimons and B. Ryan.

Apologies received from Deputy F. O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment.

3. The taping of the proceedings of the Committee was agreed in accordance with the decision taken at the meeting of 7 November 1984.

4. Consideration of Draft Report

The Committee deliberated.

Introduction

The Committee deliberated.

5. Minority Report

The Chairman stated that he had been advised that it was not possible for the Committee to permit a minority Report to accompany the final Report, and that the only place in the Report where a member could be shown as dissenting was in the Procedings of the Committee, where the results of divisions and proposed amendments to individual paragraphs were recorded.

Ordered: that the question of a Minority Report be placed on the Agenda of the Committee for the next meeting.

Question put.

The Committee divided. For, 5; Against, 1.

For: Deputies Coveney, Doyle, Wyse; Senators Fallon, Fitzsimons.

Against: Senator B. Ryan.

The question was declared carried.

6. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 6.10 p.m. until Wednesday 21 November 1984.

Wednesday, 21 November, 1984

1. The Committee met at 4.00 p.m.

2. Members present

The following members were present:

Deputy Robert Molloy, (in the Chair); Deputy Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputies Coveney, Doyle, McLoughlin, Reynolds, Shatter, Skelly, Walsh and Wyse; Senators Bulbulia, Cregan, Durcan, Fallon, Fitzsimons and B. Ryan.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputies Begley and MacSharry.

The technical adviser to the Committee, Mr. R. Jennings, was in attendance.

3. The taping of the proceedings of the Committee was agreed in accordance with the decision taken at the meeting of 7 November 1984.

4. Consideration of procedure to be adopted in relation to minority Reports.

The Chairman announced that he had been advised that it was the opinion of the Clerk of the Dáil that the Joint Committee on Building Land was not empowered to issue minority Reports and that it was also the Clerk’s opinion that the opinions of individual Members or groups of Members ought not to be incorporated in the Committee’s Report since to do so would be the equivalent of issuing minority Reports.

The Chairman added that he had been further advised that the Clerk of the Seanad was in full agreement with these views.

5. Ordered: that the Committee proceed in accordance with the advice received from the Clerk of the Dáil.

6. Consideration of Draft Report (resumed).

(1) paragraph 1.8 Ordered: that further consideration of Chapter One be deferred, pending its re-drafting.

(2) Chapter 2

paragraphs 2.1. and 2.2, agreed to.

(3) paragraph 2.3, further consideration deferred, pending re-drafting.

(4) paragraph 2.4, deferred, pending consideration of Appendix 1.

(5) paragraph 2.5, deferred, pending consideration of Appendix 8.

(6) paragraph 2.6, agreed to.

(7) paragraph 2.7, agreed to.

(8) paragraph 2.8, as amended, agreed to.

(9) paragraph 2.9, agreed to.

(10) paragraph 2.10, as amended, agreed to.

(11) paragraph 2.11, as amended, agreed to.

(12) paragraph 2.14, as amended, agreed to.

(13) paragraph 2.16, deferred, pending re-drafting.

Chapter 3

(14) paragraph 3.1 to 3.17 inclusive, agreed to.

7. Sitting Suspended

The sitting was suspended at 5.10 p.m. The Committee met again at 5.25 p.m.

8. Consideration of Draft Report (resumed)

(15) paragraphs 3.18 to 3.24 inclusive, agreed to.

(16) paragraph 3.25 to 3.27 inclusive, deferred.

(17) paragraph 3.28 to 3.31 inclusive, agreed to.

(18) paragraphs 3.32 to 3.36 inclusive, agreed to.

(19) paragraphs 3.27, deferred.

(20) paragraphs 3.28 to 3.42 inclusive, agreed to.

(21) paragraph 3.43, as amended, agreed to.

(22) paragraphs 3.44 to 3.47, agreed to.

(23) paragraphs 3.48 and 3.49 agreed to.

(24) paragraph 3.50, as amended, agreed to.

(25) paragraphs 3.51 to 3.54, agreed to.

(26) paragraph 3.55, as amended, agreed to.

(27) paragraphs 3.56 and 3.57, agreed to.

(28) paragraph 3.58, deferred.

(29) paragraphs 3.59 to 3.62, agreed to.

9. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 6.25 p.m. until 3.40 p.m. on Wednesday, 28 November 1984.

Wednesday, 28 November, 1984

1. The Committee met at 4.20 p.m.

2. Members present

The following members were present: Deputy Robert Molloy, (in the chair); Deputies Begley, Coveney and Wyse; Senators Bulbulia, Fallon, Fitzsimons and B. Ryan.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputies Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Doyle, Fitzsimons and MacSharry.

The technical adviser to the Committee, Mr. R. Jennings was in attendance.

3. The taping of the proceedings of the Committee was agreed in accordance with the decision taken at the meeting of 7 November 1984.

4. Consideration of draft Report (resumed)

Chapter 4

(1) paragraphs 4.1 to 4.3 agreed to.

(2) paragraph 4.4, agreed to.

(3) paragraph 4.5, deferred.

(4) paragraphs 4.6 to 4.13, agreed to.

(5) paragraph 4.14, as amended, agreed to.

(6) paragraphs 4.15 to 4.16, agreed to.

(7) paragraphs 4.17, deferred.

(8) paragraph 4.18, agreed to.

(9) paragraph 4.19 to 4.21, agreed to.

(10) paragraph 4.22, deferred.

(11) paragraphs 4.23 to 4.27, agreed to.

(12) paragraph 4.28, deferred.

(13) paragraphs 4.29 to 4.37 agreed to.

5. Adjournment.

The Committee adjourned at 5.25 p.m. until 3.40 p.m. on Wednesday, 5 December 1984.

Wednesday, 5 December, 1984

1. The Committee met at 4.00 p.m.

2. Members present

The following members were present: Deputy Robert Molloy, (in the Chair), Deputies McLoughlin and Wyse; Senators Bulbulia, Durcan, Ferris, and Fitzsimons.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputy F.O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputies Coveney, Doyle, J.Fitzsimons, MacSharry and Reynolds and Senators S. Fallon and B. Ryan.

The technical adviser to the Committee Mr.R. Jennings was in attendance.

3. The taping of the proceedings of the Committee was agreed in accordance with the decision taken at the meeting of 7 November, 1984.

4. Extension of Reporting Back Date

Ordered: that a six month’s extension of the Committee’s reporting back date be requested from the Dáil and Seanad.

5. The Chairman announced that he was regrettably compelled to absent himself temporarily from the meeting. By agreement Deputy Wyse took the Chair.

6. Consideration of Draft Report (resumed)

( 1) paragraph 4.38, agreed to.

( 2) paragraphs 4.39 to 4.42 agreed to.

Chapter 5

( 3) paragraphs 5.1 to 5.8 inclusive, agreed to.

( 4) paragraph 5.9, as amended, agreed to.

( 5) paragraphs 5.10 to 5.26 inclusive, agreed to.

7. Adjournment

The meeting adjourned at 5.15 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on 9 January, 1985.

Wednesday, 9 January, 1985

1. The Committee met at 11.30 a.m.

2. Members present

The following members were present: Deputy Robert Molloy, Chairman (in the Chair); Deputy Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment and Deputy Wyse; Senators Durcan, Fallon, Ferris, Fitzsimons and B. Ryan.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputies Coveney, Doyle, Fitzsimons, MacSharry, McLoughlin, Reynolds and Senators Bulbulia and Cregan.

The technical adviser to the Committee, Mr. R. Jennings was in attendance.

3. The taping of the proceedings of the Committee for both morning and afternoon sittings was agreed in accordance with the decision taken at the meeting of 7 November, 1984.

4. Ordered: that the Committee write to the Minister for Finance seeking information regarding the amounts of tax yield from Capital Gains Tax resulting from the sale of lands and Corporation Profits Tax where it arose from sales of land.

The Committee noted the receipt of a reply from An Bord Pleanála in response to a query from the Committee.

5. Consideration of Draft Report (resumed)

Part Three — Chapter 6

(1) paragraph 6.1, deleted

(2) paragraph 6.2, agreed to.

(3) paragraph 6.3, as amended, agreed to.

(4) paragraph 6.4 to 6.7 inclusive, agreed to.

6. Sitting Suspended

The sitting was suspended from 1.20 p.m. to 2.15 p.m.

7. The Committee met again at 2.30 p.m.

8. Consideration of Draft Report (resumed)

(1) paragraph 6.8, as amended, agreed to.

(2) paragraph 6.9 and 6.10, agreed to.

(3) paragraph 6.11, as amended, agreed to.

(4) paragraph 6.12 to 6.14 agreed to.

(5) paragraph 6.15 to 6.19 inclusive, agreed to.

(6) paragraph 6.20, agreed to.

(7) paragraph 6.21, deferred.

(8) paragraph 6.22 to 6.25 inclusive, agreed

(9) paragraph 6.26 agreed to. Senator B. Ryan dissenting.

(10) paragraph 6.27 and 6.28, agreed to.

(11) paragraph 6.29, as amended, agreed to.

(12) paragraph 6.30 and 6.31, agreed to.

(13) paragraph 6.32, as amended, agreed to.

(14) paragraph 6.33, deferred.

(15) paragraph 6.34 to 6.41 inclusive, agreed to.

Chapter 7

(16) paragraphs 7.1 to 7.3 inclusive, agreed to.

(17) paragraphs 7.4 and 7.5, agreed to.

(18) paragraph 7.6, as amended, agreed to.

(19) paragraph 7.7, as amended, agreed to.

(20) paragraph 7.8 and 7.9, agreed to.

(21) paragraph 7.10, deferred.

(22) paragraph 7.11, deleted.

(23) paragraphs 7.12 to 7.17 inclusive, agreed to.

(24) paragraph 7.18, as amended, agreed to.

(25) paragraph 7.19, deferred.

(26) paragraph 7.20 to 7.23, agreed to.

(27) paragraph 7.24, deferred.

(28) paragraph 7.25, agreed to.

(29) paragraph 7.26, as amended, agreed to.

(30) paragraph 7.27 and 7.28, agreed to.

8. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 4.25 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 23 January, 1985.

Wednesday, 23 January, 1985

1. The Committee met at 4.15 p.m.

2. Members present

The following members were present: Deputy F. O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputies Coveney and Wyse and Senators J. Fitzsimons and B. Ryan.

3. In the absence of a quorum the meeting adjourned at 4.30 p.m. until 4.30 p.m. on Wednesday 6 February 1985.

Wednesday, 6 February, 1985

1. The Committee met at 4.00 p.m.

2. Members present

The following members were present: Senator Michael Ferris, (in the Chair); Deputy Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputies Calleary and Coveney; Senators Fallon, Fitzsimons and B. Ryan.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from the Chairman, Deputy Robert Molloy and Deputy P. Wyse.

The technical adviser to the Committee, Mr. R. Jennings was in attendance.

3. The taping of the proceedings of the Committee was agreed in accordance with the decision taken at the meeting of 7 November, 1984.

4. The Vice-Chairman announced that the Committee of Selection had discharged Deputy Ray MacSharry from the Committee and had appointed Deputy Seán Calleary in substitution for him.

5. The Committee noted a reply received from An Bórd Pleanála in response to the Committee’s recent request for further information on the number of appeals on hand and the number of appeals received by An Bórd Pleanála in the four years prior to 1984.

6. Seantor B. Ryan asked that he be recorded as objecting (1) to the unjustifiable postponement, at very short notice, of the previously planned meeting of 16 January, 1985, in order to facilitate a non-parliamentary matter i.e. a parliamentary party meeting and (2) to the fact that it had proved impossible to form a quorum for the deferred meeting on 23 January, 1985.

7. Consideration of Draft Report (resumed)

Part Three — Chapter 7

Paragraph 7.29

(1) paragraph 7.29, noted, subject to re-drafting

(2) para 7.30, agreed to.

(3) para 7.31, agreed to.

It was agreed to adjourn at this point, and to resume consideration of the draft Report at par. 7.32.

8. Ordered: that the Brief on the Draft Recommendations in the course of preparation be placed on the Agenda for discussion at the next meeting of the Committee.

9. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned until 3.45 p.m. on Wednesday, 13 February, 1985.

Wednesday, 13 February, 1985

1. The Committee met at 4.00 p.m.

2. Members present

The following members were present:

Senator M. Ferris, (in the Chair); Deputy Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputies Calleary, Coveney, Doyle, Molloy and Wyse; Senators Fallon, Ferris, Fitzsimons and B. Ryan.

Senator Ferris announced that the Chairman, Deputy R. Molloy hoped to return to the Committee meeting as soon as possible.

The technical adviser to the Committee, Mr. R. Jennings, was in attendance.

3. The taping of the proceedings of the Committee was agreed in accordance with the decision taken at the meeting of 7 November, 1984.

4. Consideration of “Brief” for the Joint Committee on the Draft Recommendations

The Chairman explained to the Committee that this item has been placed on the Agenda following the discussions at the meeting of 6 February, 1985, and the “Brief” on the Draft Recommendations had been circulated to Members in the meantime.

5. Ordered: that the Committee consider the “Brief” together with the Draft Recommendations before continuing its consideration of the Draft Report.

The Committee deliberated.

6. At 4.20 p.m. the Vice-Chairman withdrew from the meeting. By agreement, Deputy Wyse took the Chair.

7. Ordered: that the Committee write to the Department of the Environment requesting an up-to-date memorandum on Compulsory Purchase Order procedures.

8. Resumption of Chair by Chairman

At 4.40 p.m. the Chairman returned, and took the Chair from Deputy Wyse.

9. Ordered: that the Committee agree at this point to consult a legal adviser, to advise the Committee on certain of the proposals contained in the Committee’s draft Report, notwithstanding that as the Report proceeded, legal opinion might be required in differing areas of the law, where different experts might need to be consulted.

10. Ordered: That the Clerk should, in consultation with the appropriate Departments, prepare a list of suitably qualified legal advisers for consideration by the Committee for the next meeting and that sanction for the necessary expenditure be sought from the Minister for the Public Service.

11. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 6 p.m. until 3.45 p.m. on Wednesday, 20 February, 1985.

Wednesday, 20 February, 1985

1. The Committee met at 4.00 p.m.

2. Members present

The following members were present: Senator M. Ferris, (in the Chair); Deputy Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputies Coveney, Doyle, Molloy and Wyse; Senators Bulbulia, Fallon and Fitzsimons.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Senator B. Ryan.

The technical adviser to the Committee, Mr. R. Jennings, was in attendance.

3. The taping of the proceedings of the Committee was agreed in accordance with the decision taken at the meeting of 7 November, 1984.

4. The Committee noted a reply from An Bórd Pleanála to the Joint Committee’s letter of 14 March, 1984.

5. The Vice-Chairman announced that the Clerk to the Joint Committee, pursuant to the decision taken at the meeting of 13 February, 1985, had, in consultation with the appropriate Department, contacted several barristers and had circulated to members career resumés in respect of three Senior Counsels and one Junior Counsel, who had indicated their willingness to work for the Committee. The Committee considered the career resumés.

6. Ordered: that Mr. P. Kelly B.L. be requested to accept the position of legal adviser to the Committee on the matter of the constitutional implications of certain of the proposed recommendations in the Committee’s Draft Report, as follows:—

Draft Recommendations 1/1, 1/4 and 1/5, contained respectively in pages 1 and 2 of the “Draft Recommendations” and discussed in the “Brief on the Draft Recommendations”:—

Recommendations 1/1— page 5, paragraphs 16 and 17,

Recommendations 1/4— page 3, paragraph 11, and page 4, paragraph 13,

Recommendation 1/5— page 3, paragraphs 9 and 10 and page 4, paragraph 12.

The Joint Committee requested that Mr. Kelly make himself available to attend its next meeting for a discussion on the Recommendations with the members of the Joint Committee.

7. Ordered: that Mr. Kelly be provided with a copy of the “Brief” and of the “Draft Recommendations” in advance, and that the necessary arrangements be made to have Mr. Kelly briefed in advance of the next Committee meeting.

The Committee noted it was a pre-condition of the appropriate sanction being obtained for the engagement of all specialist advisers to Oireachtas Committees that the person(s) whom it was a Committee’s intention to engage must provide to the Committee an estimate of the length of time which the proposed task would require for completion together with an outline of the costs involved.

8. Ordered: that Mr. Kelly be requested to furnish an estimate of the time and costs involved in the Committee’s query prior to his attendance at the next meeting of the Committee.

9. Ordered: that no decision be taken in the meantime in relation to the three Draft Recommendations in question.

10. Consideration of Brief from Department of the Environment

The Committee deliberated.

11. Ordered: that no decision on Draft Recommendations 1/1, 1/4 and 1/5 be made, pending receipt of the opinion from the Committee’s legal adviser.

12. Consideration of Brief on Draft Recommendations (resumed)

Page 7, paragraphs 22-25

The Committee deliberated.

13. Resumption of Chair by Chairman

At 4.50 p.m. the Chairman returned, and took the Chair from Senator Ferris.

14. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 6 p.m. until 3.45 p.m. on Wednesday, 27 February, 1985.

Wednesday, 27 February, 1985

1. The Committee met at 4.00 p.m.

2. Members present

The following members were present: Deputy Robert Molloy, (in the Chair); Deputy Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputies Callery, Coveney, Doyly and Skelly; Senators Durcan, Fallon, Ferris and B. Ryan.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputy Shatter and Senator Fitzsimons.

The technical adviser to the Committee, Mr. R. Jenning was in attendance.

The legal adviser to the Committee, Mr. P. Kelly, B.L. attended.

3. The taping of the proceedings of the Committee was agreed in accordance with the decision taken at the meeting of 7 November, 1984.

4. The Chairman confirmed that Mr. P. Kelly B.L. had agreed to act as legal adviser to the Committee. The Chairman drew members’ attention to the Briefing Note circulated to them which set out the questions which it was proposed to put to Mr. Kelly, together with the relevant Draft Recommendations.

5. The Committee noted that these questions covered the areas of doubt raised by the proposals contained in Draft Recommendations 1/1, 1/4, 1/5 and 2/5.

6. The Committee noted that Mr. Kelly had received from the Clerk a copy of the Draft Recommendations, a copy of the Brief on the Draft Recommendations, a copy of the Draft Report and a copy of the Committee’s Orders of reference.

7. Mr. P. Kelly, B.L. attended before the Committee.

8. Pursuant to a decision taken earlier by the Committee, Mr. Kelly was informed that the meeting was being tape recorded.

9. The Committee deliberated.

10. Mr. Kelly withdrew.

11. Consideration of Draft Report (resumed)

Chapter 7

(1) paragraph 7.32, deferred.

(2) paragraph 7.33, deferred.

(3) paragraph 7.34, deferred.

(4) paragraph 7.35 to 7.44 inclusive, deferred.

(5) paragraph 7.45 and 7.46, as amended, agreed to.

(6) paragraph 7.47 and 7.48, as amended, agreed to.

(7) paragraph 7.49, deferred.

Chapter 8

(8) paragraph 8.1, deferred.

(9) paragraph 8.2, agreed to.

(10) paragraph 8.3, deferred.

(11) paragraph 8.4, agreed to.

(12) paragraph 8.5, deferred.

(13) paragraph 8.6, agreed to.

(14) paragraph 8.7, as amended, agreed to.

(15) paragraph 8.8, deferred.

(16) paragraph 8.9, deferred.

13. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 6.10 p.m. until 3.45 p.m. on Wednesday, 6 March, 1985.

Wednesday, 6 March, 1985

1. The Joint Committee met at 4.00 p.m.

2. Members present

The following members were present: Deputy Robert Molloy (in the Chair); Deputy Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputies Calleary, Coveney, Doyle, Reynolds and Wyse; Senators Bulbulia, Durcan, Fallon, Ferris and B. Ryan.

An apology for inability to attend was received from Senator Fitzsimons.

The technical adviser to the Committee, Mr. R. Jennings, was in attendance.

3. The taping of the proceedings of the Committee was agreed in accordance with the decision taken at the meeting of 7 November, 1984.

4. Consideration of Draft Report (resumed)

Chapter 8

Paras. 8.10 and 8.11 deferred, pending re-drafting.

Paragraph 8.12 deferred, pending re-drafting

5. The Chairman announced that he was regrettably compelled to absent himself temporarily from the meeting.

The Vice-Chairman, Senator M. Ferris, took the Chair.

6. Consideration of Draft Report (resumed)

The Committee concluded consideration of the Draft Report.

7. Resolved: that the Committee meet to consider the advice from the legal adviser on Wednesday, 27 March, 1985.

8. Consideration of final Draft Report

Ordered: that the Committee commence consideration of the final Draft as soon as possible following receipt of the document, and that a date for the first meeting to consider the final Draft be set at the meeting of 27 March, 1985.

9. Memorandum from Department of the Environment on proposed revision of C.P.O. procedures

The Committee noted receipt of the memorandum.

10. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 5.30 p.m. until 3.45 p.m. on Wednesday, 27 March, 1985.

Wednesday, 7 March, 1985

1. The Committee met at 4.00 p.m.

2. Members present

The following members were present: Deputy Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputies Coveney, Calleary and Wyse and Senator Fitzsimons.

3. In the absence of a quorum the meeting adjourned at 4.15 p.m. until 4.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 24 April, 1984.

Wednesday, 24 April, 1985

1. The Committee met at 4.30 p.m.

2. Members present

The following members were present: Senator M. Ferris, (in the Chair); Deputy Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputies Calleary, Doyle, McLoughlin, and Wyse; Senators Durcan, Fallon, Fitzsimons and B. Ryan.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from the Chairman, Deputy R. Molloy, Deputies Coveney, Shatter and Skelly and Senators Bulbulia and Fallon.

The legal adviser to the Committee, Mr. Peter Kelly, B.L. and the technical adviser to the Committee, Mr. Robert Jennings, were in attendance.

3. The taping of the proceedings of the Committee was agreed in accordance with the decision taken at the meeting of 7 November, 1984.

4. Consideration and adoption of Legal Opinion requested by Committee from Mr. P. Kelly, B.L.

The legal adviser to the Committee, Mr. P. Kelly, B.L., delivered a synopsis of the written opinion which he had given to the Committee in connection with the matters discussed at the meeting of the Committee of 27 February, 1985.

5. Ordered: that Mr. Kelly’s opinions and conclusion on the various queries raised be incorporated into the final Report of the Committee.

6. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 5.10 p.m. until 4.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 1 May, 1985.

Wednesday, 1 May, 1985

1. The Committee met at 4.45 p.m.

2. Memebrs present

The following members were present: Deputies Calleary, Coveney, Doyle, Foley, Skelly, Walsh and Wyse. Senators Bulbulia, Durcan, Fitzsimons and B. Ryan.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from the Chairman, Deputy R. Molloy and the Vice-Chairman Senator M. Ferris, Deputy Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, and Deputy F. McLoughlin and Senator S. Fallon.

The technical adviser to the Committee, Mr. R. Jennings, was in attendance.

3. Election of temporary Chairman

In the absence of the Chairman and the Vice-Chairman, Senator B. Ryan was unanimously elected Chairman for the duration of the meeting. Senator Ryan thanked the members, and pointed out that he had already tabled amendments to the Draft Report.

4. Resolved: that Senator Ryan review his position as temporary Chairman if he felt that this conflicted with discussion on his amendments.

5. The taping of the proceedings of the Committee was agreed in accordance with the decision taken at the meeting on 7 November, 1984.

6. Consideration of final Draft Report including amendments thereto

(1) Pages (i) to (v), containing the Table of Contents and Orders of Reference agreed to page (vi) Introduction to Draft Report.

(2) Paragraph 1 agreed to.

(3) Paragraph 2 agreed to.

(4) Paragraph 3 agreed to.

(5) Paragraph 4, 5 and 6 agreed to.

DRAFT REPORT

Part 1

Section 1.1

Paragraph 1.1

Amendment proposed (Chairman); “in the last line to delete ‘upheld’ and insert ‘paramount’.”

Following discussion, the amendment was withdrawn.

(6) Paragraph 1.1 agreed to.

(7) Paragraph 1.2 and 1.3 agreed to.

Amendment proposed (Deputy Coveney); “to delete in line 5 ‘more a question of establishing’ and to substitute ‘considered more useful to establish’.”

Amendment agreed to.

(8) Paragraph 1.4 as amended, agreed to.

Paragraph 1.5

Amendment proposed (Chairman);

“In line 2 of paragraph 1.5 after ‘land’ to insert the text of paragraph 1.6 as a continuation of paragraph 1.5; the remaining text of paragraph 1.5 to become a new paragraph 1.6”.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed (Deputy Coveney); “In line of paragraph 1.5 to delete ‘the basis of our approach is the role’ and to substitute ‘The Committee’s approach is based on the role’.”

Amendment agreed to.

(9) Paragraph 1.5, as amended, agreed to.

(10) Paragraph 1.6 agreed to.

Paragraph 1.7

Amendment proposed (Deputy Coveney);

“In line 10 after ‘also’, to delete ‘the location at which the services are provided’ and to substitute ‘their location’.”

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed (Senator Fitzsimons);

“In line 8 to delete ‘benefit’ and substitute ‘benefits’ and in line 9 to delete ‘includes’ and substitute ‘include’.”

Amendment agreed to.

(11) Paragraph 1.7, as amended, agreed to.

Paragraph 1.8

Amendment proposed (Deputy Coveney);

“In line 7, after ‘higher’ to insert ‘real’.”

Amendment agreed to.

(12) Paragraph 1.8, as amended, agreed to.

(13) Paragraph 1.9 agreed to.

Paragraph 1.10

Amendment proposed (Deputy Doyle);

“In line 1, after ‘discussed’ to delete ‘above’ and substitute ‘in paragraphs 1.8 and 1.9’.”

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed (Chairman);

“In line 12, after ‘community’ to add ‘clearly therefore, in the case of conflicting perceptions of value, it is the value to the community which must be paramount’.”

Amendment to the amendment proposed (Chairman);

“In line 1, to delete ‘clearly’.”

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment to amendment proposed (Deputy Calleary);

“In line 3, after ‘which’ to delete ‘must’ and substitute ‘should’.”

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment to amendment proposed (Deputy Coveney);

“In line 3, after ‘which should be’ to delete ‘paramount’ and substitute ‘upheld’.”

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment, as amended, agreed to, to read as follows:

“Therefore, in the case of conflicting perceptions of value, it is the value to the community which should be upheld”.

(14) Paragraph 1.10, as amended, agreed to.

Paragraph 1.11

Amendment proposed (Chairman);

“In line 7 before ‘laws’ insert ‘The Constitution’.”

(15) Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed (Deputy Doyle);

(1) “In line 6, after ‘major’, to delete ‘constraints’ and substitute ‘considerations’.”

(2) “In line 7, after ‘arising’ to delete ‘through’ and substitute ‘from’.”

(3) “In line 7, after ‘through’, to delete ‘laws’ and substitute ‘legislation’.”

Amendment agreed to.

(16) Paragraph 1.11, as amended, agreed to.

Section 1.2

Paragraph 1.12

Amendment proposed (Chairman);

“In line 5, after ‘by’ to insert ‘the Constitutional endorsement of’; after ‘property’ to insert ‘and the Courts interpretation thereof’.”

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed (Chairman);

“In line 5, after ‘by’ to insert ‘and’; after ‘property’ to insert ‘as interpreted under the Constitution’.”

Amendment agreed to.

(17) Paragraph 1.12, as amended, agreed to.

6. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 6.10 p.m. until 4 p.m. on Wednesday, 8 May, 1985.

Wednesday, 8 May, 1985

1. The Committee met at 4.15 p.m.

2. Members present

The following members were present: Deputy Robert Molloy (in the Chair); Deputy Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputies Calleary, Doyle, Skelly, and Wyse; Senators Bulbulia, Durcan, Ferris, Fitzsimons and B. Ryan.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputies Foley, Coveney, McLoughlin and Senator Fallon.

The technical adviser to the Committee, Mr. R. Jennings was in attendance.

3. The taping of proceedings of the Committee was agreed in accordance with the decision at the meeting of 7 November, 1984.

4. Consideration of Final Draft Report including amendments thereto (resumed)

Motion made (Deputy Wyse);

1. That with effect from the conclusion of the meeting today, the Agenda for the next meeting of the Committee shall specify the number of paragraphs of the Committee’s Draft Report to be dealt with at that meeting.

2. That any member wishing to challenge any of the specified paragraphs must submit amendments to these paragraphs to the Clerk by 12 noon the day of the meeting.

3. That no other amendments, aside from those received by the Clerk and circulated, are to be considered by the meeting.”

Motion agreed to.

5. Ordered: that all members be notified in writing of the decision prior to the next meeting.

6. Ordered: that all amendments received by the Clerk be circulated to members via their official post boxes in the Enquiry Office.

7. The Committee noted that, where it became apparent that textual changes to the Draft would be necessary as a result of the acceptance of an amendment, such changes would be made to the Draft Report in the course of the meeting.

8. Resolved: that the duration of the next meeting of the Committee be 1½ hours.

9. The Committee resumed consideration of the Draft Report.

(1) Paragraph 1.13 and 1.14 agreed to.

Paragraph 1.15

Amendment proposed (Senator B. Ryan);

“In line 7 after ‘political’ to insert ‘and Constitutional’.”

Following discussion, Senator Ryan withdrew the amendment.

(2) Paragraph 1.15 agreed to.

(3) Paragraph 1.16 and 1.17 agreed to.

Paragraph 1.18

Amendment proposed (Senator B. Ryan);

“In line 10 before ‘political’ insert ‘Constitutional restraints’.”

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed (Senator Durcan);

“In line 10, after ‘including’ to insert ‘interpretation of Constitutional rights’.”

agreed to.

(4) Paragraph 1.18, as amended, agreed to.

10. Adjournment

The meeting adjourned at 5.10 p.m. until 4.00 p.m. on Wednesday, 15 May, 1985.

Wednesday, 15 May, 1985

1. The Committee met at 4.29 p.m.

2. Members present

The following members were present: Deputy Robert Molloy (in the chair); Deputy Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputies Calleary, Doyle, and Wyse. Senators Bulbulia, Durcan, Fallon, J. Fitzsimons and B. Ryan.

The technical adviser to the Committee, Mr. R. Jennings was in attendance.

3. The taping of the proceedings of the Committee was agreed in accordance with the decision taken at the meeting of 7 November, 1984.

4. Consideration of final Draft Report including amendments thereto (resumed)

In accordance with the decision taken at the meeting of 8th May, 1985, the Committee proceeded to consideration of paragraph 1.19 to paragraph 4.37 inclusive.

(1) Paragraph 1.19 and 1.20 agreed to.

Paragraph 1.21

Amendment proposed (Senator Ryan);

“In line 27 to add ‘clearly therefore a normal market economy analysis will be inadequate’.”

Amendment by leave withdrawn.

(2) Paragraph 1.21 agreed to.

(3) Paragraph 1.22 and 1.23 agreed to.

Senator Ryan dissenting.

Paragraph 1.24

Amendment proposed (Senator Ryan);

“In line 9 after ‘optimum’ to insert ‘market’.”

The Committee divided: For, 1; Against, 3.

For: Senator B. Ryan.

Against: Deputy Doyle, Deputy Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Senator Bulbulia.

The question was declared lost.

(4) Paragraph 1.24 agreed to.

Paragraph 1.25

Amendment proposed (Senator Ryan);

“In line 12 to add ‘It will be necessary in this regard to consider the extent to which Constitutional and legal obstacles inhibit the planning system’.”

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

(5) Paragraph 1.25 agreed to.

Chapter Two

(6) Paragraphs 2.1, 2.2 and 2.3 agreed to.

Paragraph 2.4

Amendment proposed (Senator Ryan);

“In line 2 after ‘adopted’ to insert ‘uncritically’.”

Amendment by leave withdrawn.

Amendment proposed (Senator B. Ryan);

“In line 10 after ‘assistance’ to insert ‘Clearly provision would have to be made to ensure that in the event of a household being free to realise the extra wealth, the extra wealth would revert to the community — or alternatively provision would have to be made to ensure that the extra wealth accrue to the community in the first place’.”

The Committee divided: For, 1; Against, 3.

For: Senator B. Ryan.

Against: Deputy A. Doyle, Deputy Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Senator Bulbulia.

The question was declared lost.

(7) Paragraph 2.4 agreed to.

Paragraph 2.5

Amendment proposed (Senator Ryan);

“In line 7 to delete ‘there is no’ and to insert ‘there need not always be a’.”

The Committee divided: For, 1; Against, 4.

For: Senator B. Ryan.

Against: Deputy Doyle, Deputy Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Senator Bulbulia.

The question was declared lost.

(8) Paragraph 2.5 agreed to.

(9) Paragraphs 2.6, 2.7 and 2.8 agreed to.

Paragraph 2.9

Amendment proposed (Senator Ryan);

“In line 11 to delete ‘artificial’ and to insert ‘in the absence of a well thought out land policy and a strategy in implementing that policy’.”

Amendment agreed to.

(10) Paragraph 2.9, as amended, agreed to.

Paragraph 2.10

Amendment proposed (Senator Ryan);

“In line 4 to delete or even primarily’.”

The Committee divided: For, 1; Against, 4.

For: Senator B. Ryan.

Against: Deputy Doyle, Deputy Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputy Wyse, Senator Bulbulia.

The question was declared lost.

(11) Paragraph 2.10 agreed to.

(12) Paragraph 2.11 to 2.15 inclusive, agreed to.

Part 2 - Chapter 3

(13) Paragraphs 3.1 to 3.60 inclusive, agreed to.

Chapter 4

(14) Paragraphs 4.1 to 4.4 inclusive, agreed to.

Paragraph 4.5

Amendment proposed (Senator B. Ryan); “On page 40, before paragraph 4.5 to insert paragraph 4.13’.”

Amendment agreed to.

(15) Paragraph 4.5, as amended, agreed to.

(16) Paragraph 4.6 to 4.35 inclusive, agreed to.

Paragraph 4.36

Amendment proposed (Senator B. Ryan);

“On page 50, in paragraph 4.36, sub paragraph a, line 1, to delete ‘value’ and insert ‘price’.

Amendment agreed to.

(17) Paragraph 4.36 as amended, agreed to.

Paragraph 4.37

Amendment proposed (Senator B. Ryan);

“On page 51, paragraph 4.37, to delete sub paragraph d, and substitute the following:

‘Apart from the basic price paid for undeveloped land, a number of other elements contribute significantly to the all-in cost of building land (to developed site stage)’.”

(18) Paragraph 4.37 as amended, agreed to.

6. Ordered: in accordance with the decision taken at the meeting of 8 May, 1985, that the following paragraphs of the final Draft Report be considered at the next meeting — paragraph 5.1 to paragraph 7.66, inclusive.

7. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 5.10 p.m. until 4.15 p.m. on Wednesday, 22nd May, 1985.

Wednesday, 22nd May, 1985

1. The Committee met at 4.25 p.m.

2. Members present

The following members were present: Deputy Robert Molloy (in the Chair); Deputy Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputies Calleary, Coveney, Doyle, Walsh and Wyse. Senators Fallon, Ferris, J. Fitzsimons and B. Ryan.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Senator Bulbulia.

The technical adviser to the Committee, Mr. R. Jennings was unable to attend.

3. The taping of proceedings of the Committee was agreed in accordance with the decision taken at the meeting of 7 November, 1984.

4. Consideration of final Draft Report including amendments thereto (resumed)

In accordance with the decision taken at the meeting of 8th May, 1985, the Committee proceeded to consideration of paragraphs 5.1 to paragraph 7.66 inclusive.

(1) Paragraphs 5.1 and 5.2 agreed to.

Paragraph 5.3

Amendment proposed (Senator B. Ryan);

“In line 2, to insert after ‘and intermediaries’ the footnote at ^* on page 63”.

The question was agreed to.

(2) Paragraph 5.3, as amended, agreed to.

(3) Paragraph 5.4, 5.5 and 5.6 agreed to.

Paragraph 5.7

Amendment proposed (Senator B. Ryan);

“To delete paragraph 5.7 and to substitute a new paragraph as follows:

‘Nevertheless the Committee is of the opinion that since in almost all cases there will be an expectation of future capital gain, and the need for an objective measure of windfall gain, the only operable definition is the difference between the market value of land with development potential and its market value in earlier use’.”

The Committee divided: For, 1; Against, 6.

For: Senator B. Ryan.

Against: Deputies Calleary, Coveney, Doyle, Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Walsh, Wyse.

The question was declared lost.

(4) Paragraph 5.7 agreed to.

(5) Paragraph 5.8 and 5.9 agreed to.

Paragraph 5.10

Amendment proposed (Senator B. Ryan);

“In line 9, to delete ‘double’ and insert ‘1.25’.

The Committee was divided: For, 1; Against, 6.

For: Senator B. Ryan.

Against: Deputies Calleary, Coveney, Doyle, Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Walsh, Wyse.

The question was declared lost.

Agreement on paragraph 5.10 was postponed, by agreement.

Paragraph 5.11

Amendment proposed (Minister of State at the Department of the Environment);

“In line 6, to add after ‘45m’ (see Appendix 7 for the basis on which this and any other estimates in the report are made)’.”

Amendment agreed to.

(6) Paragraph 5.11, as amended, agreed to.

(7) Paragraph 5.12 to 5.20 inclusive, agreed to.

Paragraph 5.21

Amendment proposed (Senator B. Ryan);

“In line 1, to delete all words in line one”.

Amendment by leave withdrawn.

Amendment proposed (Senator B. Ryan);

“In line 12, to delete all words after and including ‘whether or not’.”

Amendment by leave withdrawn.

(8) Paragraph 5.21 agreed to.

(9) Paragraphs 5.22 to 6.5, inclusive, agreed to.

Paragraph 6.6

Amendment proposed (Senator B. Ryan);

“In line 8 to delete ‘Households’ and insert ‘Those households which are in a position to do so’.”

(10) Amendment agreed to.

(11) Paragraph 6.6, as amended, agreed to.

(12) Paragraph 6.7 to 6.18, inclusive, agreed to.

Paragraph 6.19

Amendment proposed (Minister of State at the Department of the Environment);

“In line 4, after ‘approach’ to insert ‘in the case of publicly serviced land’.”

By agreement the amendment was amended by the insertion of “particularly” before “in”.

Amendment, as amended, agreed to.

(13) Paragraph 6.19 as amended, agreed to.

Paragraph 6.12

Amendment proposed (Minister of State at the Department of the Environment);

“In line 4, after ‘later’ to insert ‘see paragraphs 7.58 to 7.62 inclusive and 7.66’.”

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed (Senator B. Ryan);

“In line 14, to add after ‘appropriate’ the following words:

‘Alternatively a land authority could acquire land at a price related to existing use and sell at market prices thereby ensuring that the gains arising from public policies accrued to the community’.”

The Committee divided. For, 3. Against, 4.

For: Deputy S Calleary, Senators Ferris, B. Ryan

Against: Deputies Robert Molloy (Chairman), H. Coveney, Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, P. Wyse.

The Chairman announced that he had decided to cast his vote against the amendment.

The question was declared lost.

(14) Paragraph 6.20 agreed to.

(15) Paragraph 6.21 to 6.30 inclusive, agreed to.

Paragraph 6.31

Amendment proposed (Minister of State at the Department of the Environment);

“In sub-paragraph (a), to delete the second sentence”.

Amendment agreed to.

(16) Paragraph 6.31, as amended, agreed to.

(17) Paragraph 6.32 to 6.37, inclusive, agreed to.

Paragraph 6.38

Amendment proposed (Senator B. Ryan);

“In line 9 to delete from and including ‘in relation’ down to and including ‘end use’ and to substitute ‘an in relation to its final market value’.”

Amendment by leave withdrawn.

(18) Paragraph 6.38 agreed to.

(19) Paragraphs 6.39 to 6.48 inclusive, agreed to.

Paragraph 6.49

Amendment proposed (Minister of State at the Department of the Environment);

“In sub-paragraph (a) line 1 to insert ‘larger’ before ‘local’.”

Amendment agreed to.

(20) Paragraph 6.49, as amended, agreed to.

(21) Paragraph 6.50 agreed to.

5. Absence of Chairman

The Chairman announced that he was regrettably compelled to absent himself from the meeting. The Vice-Chairman, Senator M. Ferris, took the Chair.

6. Consideration of Draft Report (resumed)

Paragraph 6.51

Amendment proposed (Senator B. Ryan);

“In sub-paragraph (a) line 1, after ‘identifying’ to insert ‘and publishing’.”

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed (Minister of State at the Department of the Environment);

“After sub-paragraph ‘b’, to add a new sub-paragraph ‘c’ as follows:

‘That the Minister considers giving a right of pre-emption to local authorities to assist in regulating the land market and implementing development plans (See Chapter 7)’.”

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

(22) Paragraph 6.51 agreed to.

(23) Paragraphs 6.52 to 7.7, inclusive, agreed to.

7. It being now 5.45 p.m. and the time limit of 1½ hours for meetings (as agreed at the meeting of 8th May, 1985) having been reached, it was agreed to extend the meeting to complete consideration of the amendments tabled.

Paragraph 7.8

Amendments proposed (Senator B. Ryan);

“In line 3, to delete ‘apart from the need for consitutional amendment’.”

and

“In line 8, after ‘analysis’, to add the following paragraph:

‘The Committee is of the view, however, that the principal of acquisition at a price related to existing use as recommended by Kenny is worthwhile, but that such acquisition should be followed by a sale at market price, thus ensuring that the windfall gain resulting from public policy and investment accrue to the Community. The Committee recommends that the people be asked to approve an appropriate Constitutional amendment’.”

The Committee divided. For, 1. Against, 3. For, Senator B. Ryan.

Against, Deputy H. Coveney, Deputy Fergus O’Brien, (Minister of State at the Department of the Environment), Deputy P. Wyse.

The questions were declared lost.

(24) Paragraphs 7.8 agreed to.

Paragraph 7.9

Amendment proposed (Senator B. Ryan);

“To delete the first 3 lines and to substitute: ‘Apart from that proposed above, there are a number of other proposals which the Committee feels could be of considerable effect’.”

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

(25) Paragraph 7.9 agreed to.

(26) Paragraph 7.10 to 7.22, inclusive, agreed to.

Paragraph 7.23

Amendment proposed (Minister of State at Department of Environment);

“In paragraph 7.23, to add a new sub-paragraph as follows:

‘The preceeding recommendations dealt with market failure and public bodies who own land. In addition, it may be necesary to consider some sort of annual holding tax like site value rating in order that some of the problems with privately owned inner city land could be dealt with’.”

Amendment to the amendment proposed (Minister of State at the Department of the Environment); “after ‘privately’ to insert ‘and publicly’.”

Amendment to the amendment agreed to.

(27) Paragraph 7.23, as amended, agreed to.

Paragraph 7.30

Amendment proposed (Minister of State at the Department of the Environment);

“After paragraph 7.30 to insert paragraph 7.41”.

Amendment agreed to.

(28) Paragraph 7.30, as amended, agreed to.

(29) Paragraphs 7.31 to 7.38, inclusive, agreed to.

Paragraph 7.39

Amendment proposed (Minister of State at the Department of the Environment);

“To delete all words after ‘of the plans’ in line 4, and to substitute:

‘We conclude that the relevant Acts should be amended to restrict the right of connection only to development that has been granted planning permission’.”

Amendment agreed to.

(30) Paragraph 7.39, as amended, agreed to.

(31) Paragraphs 7.40 to 7.64, inclusive, agreed to.

Paragraph 7.65

Amendment proposed (Senator B. Ryan);

“In paragraph 7.65, to delete sub-paragraph (c)”.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

(32) Paragraph 7.65 agreed to.

Paragraph 7.66

Amendment proposed (Minister of State at the Department of the Environment);

“In paragraph 7.66, sub-paragraph (a), to delete all words from and including ‘That the Minister for the Environment’ down to and including ‘to ascertain’ in line 2 and to substitute the following:

‘That the Minister for the Environment in the context of the afore-mentioned problems with land availability undertaken an examination to ascertain…’.”

Amendment agreed to.

(33) Paragraph 7.66, as amended, agreed to.

9. Ordered: in accordance with the decision taken at the meeting of 8th May, 1985, it was agreed that the following paragraphs of the final Draft Report would be considered at the next meeting - paragraph 8.1 to paragraph 8.14, inclusive, together with Appendices 1-9, inclusive.

10. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 6.10 p.m. until 4.15 p.m. on Wednesday, 29 May, 1985.

Wednesday, 29 May, 1985

1. The Committee met at 4.40 p.m.

2. Members present

The following members were present: Deputy Robert Molloy (in the Chair), Deputy Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputies Coveney, Foley and McLoughlin; Senators Bulbulia and B. Ryan.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Senators Fallon and Fitzsimons.

The technical adviser to the Committee, Mr. R. Jennings was in attendance.

3. The taping of the proceedings of the Committee was agreed in accordance with the decision taken at the meeting of 7 November, 1984.

4. The Committee noted receipt of a reply from the Minister for Finance to a letter from the Committee requesting additional information on the yields from capital gains tax, income tax and corporation tax on development land.

5. Consideration of Final Draft Report including Amendments thereto (resumed)

Discussions on par 5.10 were resumed, as agreed at the previous meeting.

(1) par 5.10 agreed to.

Chapter 8

(2) paragraphs 8.1 to 8.3 agreed to.

Paragraph 8.4

Amendment proposed (Senator B. Ryan);

“in sub-paragraph (a) after ‘contribution’ to add ‘including the benefit contributed by planning and development decisions’.”

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

(3) Paragraphs 8.5 to 8.13 inclusive agreed to.

Paragraph 8.14

Amendment proposed (Senator B. Ryan);

“in sub-paragraph (c), line 4, after ‘taxes’ to add ‘In the interim the Committee is of the view that the present level of exemptions from capital gains tax on land sale is excessively high and should, in the interests of equity be substantially reduced and related to the levels of exemption for taxation income’.”

The Committee divided. For, 2; Against, 3;

For: Deputy F. McLoughlin, Senator B. Ryan.

Against: Deputy H. Coveney, Deputy Robert Molloy, Deputy Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment.

The question was declared lost.

Amendment proposed (Senator B. Ryan);

“to add a new sub-paragraph (d) as follows:

‘That if upon evaluation taxes are found to be ineffective, a consitutional amendment be brought before the people to enable the community to take such steps as are required to recover its contribution to windfall gains’.”

The Committeed divided. For, 2; Against, 3; For: Deputy F. McLoughlin, Senator B. Ryan. Against: Deputy H. Coveney, Deputy Robert Molloy, Deputy Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment.

The question was declared lost.

(4) Paragraph 8.14 agreed to.

Appendices

(5) Appendices 1 to 6, inclusive, agreed to.

Appendix 7

Paragraph A 7.1

Amendment proposed (Senator B. Ryan);

“To add a footnote to paragraph A7.1 as follows:

‘owner valuation excludes expectation of future development-related capital gain’.”

Amendment agreed to.

(6) Paragraph A7.1, as amended, agreed to.

(7) Paragraphs A7.2 to A7.13 inclusive, agreed to.

(8) Appendices 8 and 9 agreed to.

Summary of Report’s findings and conclusions

6. Ordered: that the Summary, Report and Appendices be circulated to members before the meeting of 5 June, 1985 to adopt the Report formally,

that no amendments of substance be accepted at this meeting,

that the Report, in photocopy format, be adopted at a meeting of the Joint Committee on 5 June, 1983,

that the Report, Appendices and the English version of the Proceedings of the Joint Committee be printed forthwith and be presented to both Houses of the Oireachtas on 12 June, 1985,

that following the presentation of the Report and Proceedings, a press conference be held in the Bar Annexe, on 12 June, 1985 at 11.00 a.m.,

that subsequently the bi-lingual version of the Report and Proceeding’s of the Joint Committee be prepared and printed in the usual way.

7. Motion made (Chairman):

“that all submissions and all other material received by the Committee in connection with its deliberations and the preparation of the Report, and not incorporated into the body of the Report, be excluded from the Final Report and be retained in the custody of the Clerk.”

Motion agreed to, Senator B. Ryan dissenting.

8. Ordered: that an appendix containing the names of all the persons and organisations who made submissions to the Committee be inserted into the Report, and that a copy of the Final Report be sent to each of them.

9. Adjournment.

The Committee adjourned at 6.10 p.m. until 4.15 p.m. on Wednesday, 5 June, 1985.

Wednesday, 5 June, 1985

1. The Committee met at 4.30 p.m.

2. Members present

The following members were present:-

Deputy Robert Molloy (in the Chair); Deputy Fergus O’Brien, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputies Coveney, Doyle, Skelly and Wyse; Senators Bulbulia, Durcan, Fallon, Ferris and B. Ryan.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputy Calleary.

The technical adviser to the Committee, Mr. R. Jennings, was in attendance.

3. The taping of proceedings of the Committee was agreed in accordance with the decision taken at the meeting of 14 November, 1984.

4. Draft Report

The Chairman brought forward a Draft Report, which was read as follows:

The Chairman drew the attention of members to the Summary of Conclusions and Recommendations, which had not been previously agreed by the Committee.

Summary agreed to.

Draft Report, Summary and Appendices agreed to, Senator B. Ryan dissenting.

Ordered: to report accordingly.

5. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 5.15 p.m.

* Committee on the Price of Building Land (Prl. 3632)