Committee Reports > List of Committees > Dáil > 1972 > Committee of Public Accounts > Interim and Final Report - Appropriation Accounts 1969 - 1970

MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA

(Minutes of Evidence)

Déardaoin, 30 Samhain, 1972.

Thursday, 30th November, 1972.

The Committee met at 11 a.m.

DEPUTY E. COLLINS in the chair

Mr. E. F. Suttle (An tArd Reachtaire Cúntas agus Ciste) called and examined.

VOTE 39—LABOUR.

Mr T. Ó Cearbhaill called and examined.

1049. Chairman.—Paragraph 69 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Subhead M.—Grants towards the provision of information and advice for intending emigrants

This subhead was introduced to enable the Minister for Labour to provide financial assistance to voluntary emigration bureaux within the State and a committee was set up to advise, inter alia, on the allocation of grants. The committee recommended token grants only in the year under review.”

Mr. Suttle.—In the year under review, the Emigrants Advisory Committee recommended only token grants.

1050. Chairman.—There is no point in taking this up until the following year’s Appropriation Accounts are being examined. We now turn to the Vote itself and firstly to the note on subhead A which refers to the Employment Service. Could the witness expand on this?

—This concerns the services operated through the Employment exchanges and transferred from the Department of Social Welfare to the Department of Labour. This took place in 1966 and the services continue to be operated by the Department of Labour pending the development of the National Manpower Service when the exchanges will be returned to the Department of Social Welfare, probably in a few months. The policy behind this is to separate the function of job placement from the function of benefit payment. This is in line with policy being developed here and in a number of other countries. A number of placement officers have been recruited and a separate manpower service is being built up.

1051. I am very much in favour of a Manpower Service. From an accounting point of view, does the establishment of a Manpower Service mean a duplication with existing services?

—No. The Employment Exchanges are to be returned to the Department of Social Welfare. They will continue to be concerned with the payment of benefits. However, where a particular area might not be covered by the Manpower Service, arrangements would have to be made between the two services whereby these offices might be asked to do certain work for the Manpower Service on an agency basis. The Manpower Service will have definite functions of overseeing the labour situation and the labour market throughout the country at the local level and of trying to match the demand with the supply and vice versa.

1052. To the extent that the manpower service will be in a separate building from the employment exchange, will this not necessitate extra expenditure?

—Yes, but that expenditure will not fall on this Vote. It will be on the Vote for Public Works. There is a very long history here. The employment exchanges, originally called labour exchanges were set up largely for the purpose of helping workers to get employment, but for various reasons including the addition of benefit-paying functions, the emphasis in their work shifted away from the original purpose. This has been the experience in Britain also. Eventually the policy decision to separate manpower functions from benefit-paying was taken. One of the big practical difficulties was to get employers to use the placement service of the Exchanges. Surveys carried out in a number of centres and interviews with employers showed a reluctance to use that service for recruiting workers partly because it was located in buildings where benefit-paying was also carried out.

1053. I take it that there will be no duplication of service between Employment Exchanges and the Manpower Service?

—There will be no duplication.

1054. Deputy MacSharry.—One is complementary to the other?

—That is right. They are separate functions.

1055. Deputy H. Gibbons.—I would like to put on record my tribute to the employment service officers in the Sligo area. They are doing very good work in a difficult situation.

Deputy MacSharry.—I second that.

—I shall be happy to convey this to the officers concerned.

Chairman.—I do not want to be misinterpreted in what I said. My remarks have been made purely from a manpower point of view.

1056. On subhead B.—Travelling and Incidental Expenses—what type of travelling is involved here?

—The main elements would be the industrial inspectorate, the Manpower Service and the Labour Court and its Industrial Relations Service.

1057. Deputy MacSharry.—On subhead C.—Post Office Services—could you explain the agency fee mentioned in the note?

—The Redundancy Payments Scheme is operated on the basis of a stamp for which we negotiate the payment of fees with the Post Office. The Department of Social Welfare had a similar arrangement and there is now a combined stamp covering redundancy and social insurance. The reason for the saving here is that this combined stamp came into operation a short time before the beginning of the year of this account and we had to make a provisional arrangement with them. When the year was over we found we were able to have the actual fee reduced.

1058. Deputy Treacy.—On subhead D. Advertising and Publicity—is the exhibition dealing with careers a continuing feature of the work of the Department? Is this beneficial?

—Yes. It is not only a continuing but a developing service. There is another subhead which relates to this also but I can answer the Deputy’s question here. A number of local groups, such as junior chambers of commerce, past pupils unions, trade unions and others promote career exhibitions. It is an activity in which the Department encourage them to engage. We supply them with literature, copies of our leaflets and any other information they may want. We take a stand normally at these exhibitions and on occasion we have made small subventions towards the cost. It is a continuing function.

1059. What form does it usually take?

—A particular organisation would set about organising an exhibition designed to show young people, mainly school leavers, the type of careers open to them. Many organisations, such as banks, State companies and the Government, say, the Civil Service Commission and the Local Appointments Commission, would be asked to make their information and personnel available to explain to young people the kind of opportunities available to them. The Department would then supply their own leaflets and any other information and would send officers of the Department to man the stand and answer questions.

1060. Are films available for this purpose?

—We have been inquiring into this. We have found that films are very costly in a situation like this and also they tend to go out of date and become irrelevant so we have not so far used any films.

1061. Deputy MacSharry.—Are the career guidance pamphlets which come from the Department of Labour included in this?

—There is a separate subhead—Career Information—for them.

1062. Deputy H. Gibbons.—On subhead G—Research—how many manpower surveys have been completed?

—When the Department of Labour was set up it was decided as part of this service to experiment with manpower surveys carried out by the Department directly and two areas, Waterford and Galway, were selected for this purpose. These surveys took much longer to carry out than we had hoped and they were also very costly. We then decided we could not continue on this basis so no further surveys of a direct nature have since been carried out. Also, the information which came from these surveys was much too detailed for the requirements of industrial promoters and others. We have now changed over to assisting local groups who wish to do surveys and to organising, in co-operation with the Industrial Development Authority, local surveys of a less intensive nature but which bring forward fairly quickly the manpower information required, especially for a potential industrial promoter interested in an area. I should say, when the National Manpower Service is fully developed, we hope that the type of information coming forward from these special surveys will be available to that Service on a continuing and day to day basis so that we foresee in a few days’ time that it may not be necessary, except for some very special reason, to carry out manpower surveys.

1063. Have you any special instructions or standard forms to give to local bodies?

—Yes. A number of groups have been assisted by the Department. There is a standard form of questionnaire which is available from the Manpower Service. The Manpower Service are also prepared to advise on how to conduct this and on how to vet the information afterwards.

1064. Chairman.— On subhead H—Resettlement Allowances—this resettlement scheme does not appear to have been very successful in the year under review. Could we have your comment on that?

—The scheme was introduced very shortly before the period of this account. Even though it was advertised widely, leaflets were distributed and information on it was circulated through the employment exchanges and through trade union organisations and others, it was not much used. We detected at that time a reluctance by workers to move from one area to another. This scheme was part of the policy of promoting the mobility of workers within the country. We were anxious in a case where an industry might have closed down in a particular area that workers would be helped to move to other areas to get employment. There was at first a strong resistance to this. I should say that since this account we have extended the scope of the resettlement scheme to include the return of emigrant workers to Ireland. These are emigrants with special skills whom we want here. These factors have resulted in quite a big splurge of applications which will be reflected in later accounts.

1065. Deputy Treacy.—Have many emigrant workers availed themselves of this service?

—Yes. I could not give the number to the Deputy but it is one of the conditions that they will seek employment here through the National Manpower Service. We felt that unless some condition of that kind were introduced the scheme might be abused.

1066. Chairman.—Perhaps you would forward a note about the numbers who would benefit under the scheme in general and in particular returning emigrants?

—Yes*

1067. Deputy H. Gibbons.—I am thinking of a specific case where a person returned in response to an advertisement in the newspapers but he did not get any work. Are you under any obligation in this instance?

—Our attitude is that if this scheme were open-ended it might be open to abuse. We would like people to seek employment through the National Manpower Service. If someone comes from England in response to an advertisement but fails to get employment, I think we would be flexible enough to consider the circumstances of the case. However, without knowing the particular case I would not like to comment further.

1068. Some people who return bring their goods and chattels but sometimes they bring too many with them and they are then in trouble with other Departments. Sometimes these goods are regarded as necessary in their business—I am thinking of vans, motor vehicles, machinery and so on. When they take these goods in here they have to pay what they consider excessive duty and in some cases they are not allowed to take them in at all. I am wondering if some thought might be given to this problem?

Chairman.—Perhaps it might be more appropriate to put down a Parliamentary question rather than to discuss it here.

Deputy H. Gibbons.—At any rate, I have thrown out the suggestion and, perhaps, some thought could be given to it.

—I understand the Revenue Commissioners have transfer of residence arrangements which might cover some of the remarks of the Deputy.

1069. Would it be possible to convey this in the advertisement or in whatever inducement is given to them to come over so that there will not be any difficulty?

1070. Chairman.—I do not think this is the place to deal with it. With regard to subhead I.—Career Information—I should like to compliment the Department on the career guidance leaflets which we get periodically. They are helpful and I hope they are distributed to all the post-primary schools.

—Three million leaflets were distributed last year.

1071. Is this the first year that has been done?

—No, the scheme has been in operation before but it is being developed. The cost of printing is carried by the Stationery Office Vote.

1072. Deputy MacSharry.—I had wondered about that because the amount of money appears to have been very small for this necessary work. I should like to compliment the Department on what they have done. Do all Deputies get these leaflets?

—I am not sure about that but, if not, it can be arranged.

Chairman.—I agree with the Deputy that Members of both Houses of the Oireachtas should get a copy of these leaflets and, perhaps this might be arranged.

1073. Deputy MacSharry.—In what areas are the leaflets distributed and who gets them?

—Anyone who requests a leaflet gets one and thereafter he receives copies on a continuing basis. The leaflets are available in public libraries, in secondary and vocational schools, in emigrants bureaux, in youth clubs etc. We have an extensive mailing list and anyone who asks for them can get them on a continuing basis if he wishes. However, if the Deputy is aware of any area that has not been included and if he will let the Department know, we will be glad to supply the leaflets.

1074. Deputy Treacy.—Are these important leaflets on display and readily available to pupils in the schools? I hope that they are not just filed away.

—In the case of schools the Department of Education are developing guidance services. This might be more relevant to the accounting officer of the Department of Education but I know teachers are assigned to this work and are trained for it. They are supplied with copies of these leaflets which they can distribute.

1075. Chairman.—With regard to subhead J.1.—An Chomhairle Oiliúna—administration and general expenses (Grant-in-Aid) —how successful have AnCO been from the point of view of efficiency and cost/benefit to the State?

—Without trying to evade this question, may I say that it is a very wide one and that there are some subjective elements in it? The AnCO service has not been fully developed yet. There are different branches of this service. There is the traditional question of apprenticeship training which AnCO are trying to have improved. When AnCO were set up it was obvious that the level of industrial training was in need of improvement. The attitude adopted was that it should be left to industry itself to do this job. It was considered that industry needed a certain stimulus to do it and the stimulus was in the form of a levy on industry which was repayable up to 90 per cent in the event of their promoting acceptable schemes of training. There were certain conditions for recovering the 90 per cent which were not at all stringent. The second part of AnCO’s work refers to the training centres which were set up in Waterford and Galway, Shannon, Dublin, Cork and Gweedore where direct training is carried out. In addition, there are mobile training centres in Tralee, Athlone and Ballina. It would be difficult at this stage to come to a firm conclusion on a cost/benefit analysis basis as regards the utility of all this. The number of people being trained is less, relatively speaking, than in Northern Ireland. The purpose of the whole exercise is to help to make our industries competitive and increase employment.

1076. Chairman.—My worry is that the administration expenses would become so big relative to the through-put of apprentices as not to justify it. Would it be possible to get a nearly comparison of the total amount spent as against the number of apprentices which went through the system? I appreciate it would be a difficult ratio to establish. Perhaps something along those lines would be of benefit to us so as to ensure that the expenditure on the scheme does not make the whole thing uneconomic?

—I take that point. Under the system of programme budgeting which is being introduced into the public service some operations of this kind are being undertaken. I should like to say here that we have found training to be a very expensive service. I shall, of course, report back your remarks so that appropriate action can be taken on them.

1077. We shall bring this matter up in our report. There is the danger that any particular scheme might not be worthwhile from the point of view of the expenditure involved and the results flowing from it. We would need some sort of cost/benefit analysis.

1078. Deputy H. Gibbons.—What is the big objection to the diversification of this training to the vocational schools? Could the Department not continue this training through the vocational schools, through an upgrading of those schools?

—There is already close co-operation with the vocational schools. It is necessary in the case of industrial training to simulate actual factory conditions and to try to introduce a work atmosphere so that people will be trained as nearly as possible in the type of climate in which they will later have to work.

1079. While accepting that, it would not apply so much to carpentry, the building trade and the motor trade?

—Some of this training is in fact done in the vocational schools, especially in Dublin.

1080. Deputy Treacy.—To what extent are employers availing of the services of AnCO? I should also like to know to what extent employers are honouring their commitment to pay the appropriate levy to AnCO.

1081. Chairman.—Was the scheme in operation in the year under review?

—It was on a narrower range than now. The Minister stated in the Dáil some time ago that there was some resistance by a minority of employers to the payment of the levy. Some of those who have been making representations were small employers and it has recently been decided to exempt the very small firms: there is now a minimum below which the levy is not chargeable. This will exempt from the scope of the levy a number of small employers who were liable. It is a matter for AnCO to proceed against defaulting employers in the ordinary way in the courts.

1082. Deputy Treacy.—Are AnCO doing sufficient to make employers aware of the magnificent services available to them in return for the levy paid? I consider there is some misunderstanding of the position on the part of employers?

—I would not like to go too far into the realm of policy in this matter.

Chairman.—We cannot go into the realm of policy at all.

—I can give a short answer without going into detail. There have been movements in Britain for the abolition of the levy and it was generally expected that the British would abolish it. This was part of the basis for the campaign against the levy here. In fact, the British Government decided not to abolish the levy but to moderate it in a certain way, so the situation is different from what it was some months ago.

1083. Deputy Governey.—Mention was made of smaller firms. What would you term a small firm?

—It would be based on the payroll and is different for different industries. In some cases it would be £10,000 a year.

1084. Is it as low as £10,000?

—I can send the information to the Deputy.

Chairman.—You could send it to the Committee.*

1085. Deputy H. Gibbons.—Subhead K deals with industrial safety. This is more or less a voluntary activity?

—There are statutory obligations on employers, occupiers of industrial premises, in relation to safety, but some years ago it was decided to take the emphasis away from enforcement and to promote industrial safety through information, education and propaganda but without, of course, abandoning enforcement. The main function of this organisation, NISO, is to issue leaflets, give lectures and advice and engage in safety propaganda generally, in co-operation with the industrial inspectorate. The members of NISO, who are mainly industrialists, subscribe and the State pays £4 for every £1 paid by the members.

1086. Do your officers go around to industry and canvass them to take part in the scheme?

—The secretariat of NISO is supplied by the Department of Labour and the cost is borne on subhead A. In addition to them, two members of the industrial inspectorate are members of the executive council of NISO and are responsible in part for the policy it carries out, and the inspectorate co-operate generally with NISO.

1087. Deputy Treacy.—Could we have an indication as to the number of factory inspectors?

—The total cadre is 46, but we have eight vacancies; there are 38 serving. I should explain that it is difficult to attract and to hold highly qualified people in this service, but we have been gradually building up the service and competitions are in progress at this time to fill the remaining eight posts. We would hope, if these competitions are successful, that this would be done in a matter of weeks from now.

1088. When these posts are filled would you regard the numbers as reasonably adequate?

—The number of 46 was set before the Oireachtas passed the Dangerous Substances Act, which, when in operation maybe a year from now, will add something to the requirements, but I would regard the number that we have set, 46, as adequate for present needs. It was decided on following a comprehensive review of the service in which the Chief Industrial Inspector took part.

1089. Chairman.—It is up to yourself to seek an appropriate increase in the Vote money to cover the inspectorate

1090. On subhead L—Technical Assistance—there are grants to the IMI and to CERT. Why is there a grant to CERT?

—This body was set up in the early sixties as a subsidiary of Bord Fáilte. It is concerned with the recruitment, training and placement of people in the hotel and catering industry. A grant was paid to them for some years by Bord Fáilte, that is, from the Transport and Power Vote, but a few years ago it was decided to transfer the service to this Vote because the function was training and manpower generally, which come under this Vote. The long-term aim here is to have the hotel and catering industry on the same footing as every other industry, to have them brought within the ambit of overall training policy, but this has not yet been done and there is no levy/grant system in operation for the industry. That is why it is at present treated in a different way from other industries.

1091. In most other industries there is a levy/grant system?

—Yes, there is a levy/grant system in nearly every other industry.

1092. Is it a matter of policy that this industry should be an exception?

—It is a matter of historical evolution, and there are also serious practical difficulties in trying to operate a levy where some of the units in the industry are small, making the cost of collection high.

1093. From the point of view of accountability, if a scheme were adopted possibly there would be some savings to the State?

—The experience in Britain and in the Six Counties has been that, where levies were imposed on this industry, the cost of collection was very high.

1094. Deputy MacSharry.—What is the necessity for a grant to the Irish Management Institute?

—The Department of Labour are spending a lot of money on having people trained at industrial level in various skills. It appeared to us that it was necessary, in order that these skills should be put to the most efficient use, that management levels should be as high as possible.

1095. That is not in AnCO’s bailiwick?

—Not directly, but it was apparent to us from a survey that was done in 1966 that the level of management in Irish industry was deficient in various respects, and this is the justification for the grant, namely, to try to bring the level of industrial management up and to make the expenditure on other types of training that is, industrial training, more effective.

1096. Deputy H. Gibbons.—In view of the fact that CERT make a report on their work available, would it not be proper for the IMI to do so? Perhaps they do it through another Department?

—Yes, indeed, they do publish a report. I think it was a misunderstanding if the IMI’s report and accounts were not made available.

1097. Chairman.—We can rectify that?

—They do have accounts which are audited.

1098. For future years, we can have their report and accounts.

1099. Deputy Treacy.—Having made the grant, what control do you exercise after that in respect of the IMI grant?

—We have a formula, which was negotiated with the approval of the Department of Finance, between ourselves and the IMI whereby we pay a grant related to certain expenditure by them on training managers. We get the accounts and any information we need, and these accounts are audited at the end.

1100. You are satisfied the money is effectively spent?

—We are concerned with training activities only.

1101. Deputy MacSharry.—Are CERT and IMI not more or less doing the same job? Does it not call for amalgamation of some sort?

—There is close co-operation between them.

1102. Chairman.—They are quite distinct fields. I understand there is some question of IMI amalgamating with the Confederation of Irish Industry?

—This has not taken place but it could have implications.

1103. Yes, at a later date. On subhead O —Losses—why were the cash shortages there? They are very trivial amounts.

—These are cases where there was no culpability, pilferages and genuine mistakes. It is a very big number of small accounts.

1104. Are you satisfied that adequate care is taken in relation to all cash outflows?

—Yes. One hundred cash shortages make up the £182.

1105. In relation to No. 3 in the Appropriations-in-Aid, the redundancy payments have been substantially increased since 1969?

—Yes. The benefits have been increased but the contributions have not.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 7—OFFICE OF THE REVENUE COMMISSIONERS.

Mr. J. C. Duignan called and examined.

1106. Chairman.—Paragraphs 13 and 14 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General read:

“Revenue Account

A test examination of the Revenue Account has been carried out with satisfactory results.

The net yield of revenue for the years 1969-70 and 1968-69, under its main heads, is shown in the following statement:—

£337,566,000 was paid into the Exchequer during the year leaving a balance of £357,338 as compared with £176,696 at the end of the previous financial year.”

The increases under these headings were very substantial. It must take a lot of administration to see that these sources of revenue are properly accounted for?

—Yes. The total increase for 1969/70, as compared with 1968/69, was £55,382,000. The largest increase was under excise which accounted for £15,373,000. The next largest was income tax and surtax which was £12,587,000 followed by customs £11,944,000 and wholesale tax £10,608,000. A good deal of these increases were accounted for by increased rates of taxation except in the case of income tax, of course, where there were more taxpayers involved. Under the other heads I have mentioned the higher yield was largely attributable to higher rates of tax. In his Budget speech of the 7th May, 1969, the Minister for Finance announced increased rates of duty on tobacco, oils, spirits, wine and beer so that of the increases in the excise duties to which I have referred the largest items were beer accounting for £7.8 million, oils £3.7 million and spirits £3.3 million. The increased customs yield from tobacco was £5.9 million, oils £2.5 million, spirits £1.3 million, motor vehicles £0.9 million and clothing £0.6 million. The increases under these heads— caused mainly by higher rates—did not involve higher administrative costs. On the other hand, in the case of income tax, a certain amount of extra costs were involved because more taxpayers were brought in. Wholesale tax increased from £9.6 million to £20.2 million. This was largely accounted for by the fact that the rate of tax was raised from 5 per cent to 10 per cent from 1st January, 1969. There were some extra administrative costs here because it was necessary to strengthen the audit and control staff but the amount involved was not great.

1107. Chairman.—Paragraph 15 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads as follows:

“I have been furnished with the following analysis of amounts of income tax, sur-tax and corporation profits tax outstanding:—

Comparative totals for the previous year are—Income tax, £12,968,368; Sur-tax, £2,723,405; Corporation Profits tax, £3,272,348.”

Have you anything to add, Mr. Suttle?

Mr. Suttle.—No.

1108. Chairman.—Paragraph 16 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads as follows:

“Extra-statutory Repayments of Customs and other Duties

Extra-statutory repayments of Customs duties, £20,717, Excise duties, £14,651, Turnover tax, £15 and Stamp duties, £127, were made during the year.”

Mr. Suttle.—I have nothing to add.

1109. Chairman.—Paragraph 17 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads as follows:

“Remissions and Amounts Irrecoverable

I have been furnished with schedules of the cases involving a loss of £50 or upwards in which claims for duty under the Revenue Acts were remitted without statutory authority or passed as irrecoverable during the year ended 31 March 1970.

The total amount of the items included in the schedules, £24,671, is made up as follows:—

The distribution according to the grounds of remission or write-off is:—

I have made a test examination of the items included in the schedules with satisfactory results.”

Mr. Suttle.—I have nothing to add.

1110. Chairman.—With regard to subhead E.—Motor Vehicles—may I ask what comes under this heading?

—The figure for motor vehicles is £25,086 and it provides for the supply, taxation, maintenance and operation of official motor cars for land frontier patrols and special inquiry branch duties, including four vans, one of which was assigned to a travelling mechanic, one was for the use of the special inquiry branch, one for the use of the Collector of Customs and Excise and one was assigned to the head office. The largest item in the expenditure was for petrol which cost £8,672; the next item was for repairs and spares which accounted for £5,848; new cars cost £4,230 and miscellaneous expenditure was £3,234 which mainly represented the daily allowance for preventive officers on patrol duty. Smaller items were radio-telephones, £1,692 and taxation, £1,045.

1111. Deputy H. Gibbons.—What is covered by Rewards in subhead F.—Law Charges, Fees and Rewards?

—These are rewards to customs officials in respect of seizures made. In addition, there is a certain amount for members of the Garda for discovery of illicit distillations.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 5—COMPTROLLER AND AUDITOR GENERAL

Mr. S. MacGearailt called and examined.

1112. Chairman.—With regard to subhead A—Salaries, Wages and Allowances—what is the position regarding staff? This is a rather technical Department.

Mr. S. MacGearailt.—We have increased our staff numbers slightly. The problem is to hold the staff. We recruited 13 executive officers in the year under consideration and already we have lost six of them.

1113. Is it because of salary or conditions of work?

—Some leave to go to university, some go to other Departments and others take up outside employment.

1114. Is this because of the salary level?

—I think it is a question of prospects and salary levels. We encourage executive officers to acquire extra qualifications, such as an accountancy qualification or a B.Comm. degree but as soon as they get those qualifications many of them leave. In addition, there is the added fact that the experience they have gained in our Office makes them very useful to other offices and institutes. I might mention the case of one executive officer who came in in 1964, did his B.Comm. degree, got first place, took a Master’s degree in Business Administration in UCD and then UCD took him as a lecturer.

Mr. Suttle.—After eight years in the office he left to become a lecturer in the university. This is an office which gives tremendous scope and experience in the whole system of Government administration. He was an exceptional young man. He got first place in the B.Comm. finals as a night student. That was two years ago and he left recently. He had been in the office since 1964.

1115. Chairman.—Had he got any promotion while in the office?

—He came in as an executive officer and got promotion before his time. He did not have to wait the usual six years. He got two promotions in five years.

1116. How did his salary scale compare with what he gets in the university?

—As a married man his salary scale as an auditor would have been from £2,500 to £3,200, roughly.

This is a problem the whole Civil Service is faced with.

1117. Deputy Tunney.—On Post Office Services, this is the first or one of the few occasions on which we have had this less than the amount estimated?

—We have six telephone lines and our staff is spread over the Service. It is just a matter of having more calls in some years than in others.

The witness withdrew.

The Committee adjourned.

* See Appendix 46.

* See Appendix 47.