Committee Reports > List of Committees > Dáil > 1971 > Committee of Public Accounts > Final Report - Northern Ireland Relief Expenditure

MIONTUAIRISC NA FIANAISE

(Minutes of Evidence)

Dé Céadaoin, 24 Feabhra, 1971

Wednesday, 24th February, 1971

The Committee met at 4 p.m.

DEPUTY P. HOGAN in the chair.

ORDER OF DÁIL OF 1st DECEMBER, 1970.

Mr. E. F. Suttle (An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste) was in attendance in an advisory capacity.

The Committee deliberated.

The Committee adjourned at 5.45 p.m.

The Committee resumed at 7.15 p.m.

The Committee deliberated.

Deputy Briscoe withdrew from the meeting of the Committee.

Chairman.—The Committee is going into private session at 8.45 p.m. I have an announcement to make: Deputy Briscoe has informed me that he will not be attending meetings of the Committee in relation to the Order of Dáil of 1st December, 1970, pending the outcome of the proceedings initiated in the High Court on 24th February, 1971.

Deputy Charles Haughey called.

Deputy Haughey.—Before I take this oath, I am advised that there is some doubt as to the statutory capacity of the Committee to administer the oath. I am perfectly prepared to take it, if the Committee are satisfied as to their capacity to administer it.

Chairman.—We have been doing that all along up to the present, and I think the Committee in general is satisfied. If any of you are disatisfied——

Deputy FitzGerald.—Yes, it is the statutory authority.

Deputy Haughey.—What is the statutory authority, Mr. Chairman?

Chairman.—The Act. What is the title of it? Oireachtas Witnesses Oaths Act.

Deputy Haughey.—In view of that, I am quite satisfied.

Deputy Charles Haughey sworn and examined.

8928. Chairman.—Mr. Haughey, I must say that these proceedings are as disagreeable and distasteful to me as I am sure they are to you. It is unpleasant for all sides, and I hope you will appreciate that it is not nice to Members of the same Parliament to be in this type of confrontation.

—Before you proceed any further, Mr. Chairman, I would like to draw your attention to Standing Order No. 127 which constitutes this Committee.

(Standing Order No. 127 handed to the Chairman).

8929. Chairman.—Yes?

—The Standing Order, I think, speaks of, or uses words to the effect that this Committee must be impartially representative of the Dáil. Perhaps you would read it out.

8930. Chairman.—I will, yes.

The Committee shall be otherwise constituted according to the provisions of Standing Orders 67 and 70 and so as to be impartially representative of the Dáil.

—In view of your announcement that one of the members of the Committee has withdrawn, it seems to me that the Committee at the moment cannot be regarded as impartially representative of the Dáil, and, therefore, I would ask you to adjourn the proceedings until it is so representative, or at least until I have the opportunity of being advised as to the situation.

8931. Chairman.—Of course, as originally constituted it was impartially representative and Deputy Briscoe has not resigned as such from the Committee.

—But the Committee which I see before me here, and by which I am summoned to give evidence, does not comply with Standing Order 127.

8932. Deputy E. Collins—Of what is a quorum constituted?

8933. Chairman.—I know his point, the point he is raising is the temporary withdrawal of Deputy Briscoe—that is the point you made?

—Therefore, the Committee is now constituted as to six people from one side of the House and five from another. I would at least ask you, Mr. Chairman, to adjourn until I have an opportunity of being advised as to the implications of Deputy Briscoe’s withdrawal arising out of the wording of Standing Order 127.

8934. Chairman.—That seems to me a fair request, if other members agree.

8935. Deputy FitzGerald.—I think, as I understand it, the Committee quorum is constituted by a third of the members. At this meeting at the moment one member is absent and he may be absent from other meetings in the future.

8936. Deputy Haughey.—If I go on, it seems to me that more than one member is absent at the moment.

8937. Deputy FitzGerald.—I am trying to reply to the point: at other meetings members have been absent, our quorum is four, and there are two main issues: are there 12 members of the Committee, six from each side of the House? To which the answer is yes. Secondly, have we a quorum of four? To which the answer is yes. In those circumstances, I do not think there is any point which we have to consider.

8938. Deputy Haughey.—I am stressing my request to you, Mr. Chairman, in view of this development which seems to me to go to the root of the constitution of the Committee by Standing Order 127 that you agree to my asking for an adjournment so that I may be advised as to the Committee as at present constituted.

8939. Deputy Keating.—Could I ask through the Chair if the request is for an adjournment until the near future, or a lengthy adjournment or what are we being asked for?

8940. Deputy Haughey.—On this particular point, I would ask for a short adjournment, perhaps, to next week, not a long-term adjournment at all.

8941. Chairman.—That seems to me to be perfectly fair, he is entitled to that consideration.

8942. Deputy MacSharry.—I would propose that we should agree with that, Mr. Chairman.

8943. Deputy Treacy.—Would Deputy Haughey be otherwise prepared to answer questions before the Committee apart from the question he raised?

8944. Deputy Haughey.—I have another submission to make but that does not arise at the moment. I have already indicated my willingness, and I wish to reiterate my willingness to give every assistance I can to the Committee.

8945. Deputy FitzGerald.—I am a little concerned, I am sympathetic towards any witness who seeks the consideration of the Committee, but the point raised as to whether we are properly constituted is a matter for the Committee to decide. Perhaps it might be possible for us to adjourn and consider it privately. I do not know, but I am a little unhappy at the suggestion that it should be a matter for a witness to seek advice on, it is a matter for us to decide on and to tell the witness.

8946. Deputy Haughey.—I am only seeking advice as to the Committee as at present constituted.

8947. Chairman.—We have allowed all witnesses to be entitled to legal advice, and Deputy Haughey is asking that he be allowed to avail himself of that advice.

8948. Deputy MacSharry.—All I did was to propose that we adjourn for us to consider the question raised by the witness.

8949. Deputy FitzGerald.—I would second that.

8950. Chairman.—We consider it now?

8951. Deputy Haughey.—With due deference to my friend and colleague, Deputy MacSharry, my proposal is a little different. I am asking you to adjourn so that I may have an opportunity of being advised, and as I said, I am asking only for a short adjournment.

8952. Chairman.—You mentioned one week. Are we agreed on that? It seems quite fair to me.

8953. Deputy FitzGerald.—I propose that we adjourn to consider this.

8954. Chairman.—We may consider this ourselves, But Deputy Haughey wants a week to consider it.

8955. Deputy FitzGerald.—I propose we accept the request of Deputy MacSharry that we adjourn to consider this.

8956. Deputy Haughey.—With all due deference to Deputy FitzGerald, I understand that your mind, Mr. Chairman, is to accede to my request for an adjournment for a week to enable me to be advised.

8957. Deputy Keating.—This is Wednesday now, would Tuesday next week be convenient? We often resume on a Tuesday, although we have not this week.

8958. Chairman.—Yes, at 11 o’clock, would that be all right?

Deputy Haughey.—Rather early, Mr. Chairman, but yes, thank you.

Deputy Charles Haughey withdrew.

Chairman.—We have no further witnesses this evening.

(The committee deliberated and adjourned at 9 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 25th February, 1971.)