Committee Reports > List of Committees > Dáil > 1969 > Committee of Public Accounts > Report - Appropriation Accounts 1967 - 1968

MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA

(Minutes of Evidence)

Déardaoin 20 Feabhra 1969

Thursday 20th February 1969

The Committee met at 11 a.m.

Mr. E. F. Suttle (An Árd-Reachtaire Cúntas agus Ciste) and Mr. J. R. Whitty, Mr. J. Whelan and Mr. M. O’Reilly (An Roinn Airgeadais) called and examined.

VOTE 45—EXTERNAL AFFAIRS.

Mr. H. McCann called and examined.

538. Chairman.—Paragraph 83 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Subhead H.—John F. Kennedy Centre, Washington, D.C.

83. The charge to this subhead, £6,500, represents the cost of a chandelier and four wall brackets to be presented as a gift to the John F. Kennedy Centre for the Performing Arts, in Washington, D.C. As the Centre will not be completed until late 1969 or early 1970, the gift is being stored in Ireland until the presentation formally takes place.”

539. Have you anything to add, Mr. Suttle?

Mr. Suttle.—This paragraph is for information. The figure of £6,500 includes the cost of storage, delivery to Washington and assembly of the chandelier and wall brackets.

540. Deputy Healy.—Since it has not yet been delivered it is being stored?

Mr. Suttle.—It is Waterford glass and it is stored in Waterford.

Chairman.—It will not deteriorate, I presume?—No.

541. Paragraph 84 reads:

“Suspense Account

84. A book “1916 Cuimhneacháin 1966” recording the various ceremonies held to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the Rising was prepared. The cost of printing and publishing 20,284 copies, retail price 21s. each, amounted to £13,968 and was borne on Subhead E., Vote 17, Miscellaneous Expenses, 1966-67; receipts from sales have been credited to a suspense account in the Vote for External Affairs. I have asked for information as to the number of copies of the book sold, the number remaining in the hands of the Department, including stocks at offices abroad, and the total receipts from sales.”

542. Have you anything to add, Mr. Suttle?

Mr. Suttle.—The Accounting Officer has informed me that, as the purpose of this publication was to commemorate and publicise a great national event, wide distribution was more important than purely commercial considerations. Up to 31st October, 1968, of the 20,284 copies printed, 7,519 were sold, 2,027 distributed free of charge and 10,738 were on hands at headquarters, at Missions abroad and at sales outlets. As regards the number printed I was informed that it was necessary to be in a position to meet possible demand; 10,000 copies would have cost £9,500 to £10,000 so that 20,000 seemed the more prudent number to order. Receipts from sales up to November, 1968 amounted to £5,182.

543. What is the position about the publication “Facts about Ireland”?

Mr. McCann.—We had a second printing and are now running to a second edition There is a continuing demand for that.

544. Demand for the 1916 book has been slow?—There was no precedent for this since the 50 years’ anniversary of 1916 is unique. Because it was an important national event we felt it was necessary at least to be able to meet demand and it was not produced entirely as a commercial undertaking. We were able to get 20,000 for one-quarter more than 10,000 would have cost. The possible demand for this publication was discussed even in terms of 30,000 to 50,000. What is left on hands at present will not go to waste. It is something which normally we would be distributing to journalists or interested people abroad. Insofar as it reproduces accounts of some of the events of 1916 it is of continuing use.

545. Would the educational authorities be interested in it?—The Department of Education have already acquired a substantial number of copies.

546. Deputy Healy.—Is it being distributed through booksellers?—Yes. It is being distributed through booksellers and through Irish societies’ outlets.

Was it sent to Easons?—Yes.

547. Deputy Gilhawley.—Is it possible that all copies will be sold?—At this stage the position is that the demand is beginning to taper off. It will be more of value now, I think, to stimulate continued interest in Irish people abroad in our historical past.

Chairman.—It is making a good contribution?—It is not wasted at all. It is also used for presentation to visitors to Ireland. There are colour reproductions which are of interest as a page of our history.

548. With regard to subhead B.—Travelling and Incidental Expenses—the travelling expenses seem to have increased in 1967/68. Was there any special reason for this?—No. It is very difficult to say so far in advance what will arise by way of transfers or home leave and so forth. Sometimes the movement of an officer and his family over a long distance, as, for instance, to Australia, can make substantial inroads and, of course, costs have been rising also.

549. Deputy Healy.—On subhead D.— Repatriation and Maintenance of Destitute Irish Persons abroad—what is the Department’s attitude to destitute Irish persons? What type of person would be covered in this? Is it anybody in difficulties abroad?— It depends to a certain extent on where they are. In the normal case of Europe a person who is destitute and cannot find his or her way home is taken care of. In the case of Britain, where there are special circumstances—there are almost 1,000,000 of our citizens—our help is devoted mainly to young persons especially girls, found to be in need of care and protection and to persons destitute and unfit for work by reason of physical or mental infirmity. We also repay the cost to recognised societies of the expenses they incur in the repatriation of unmarried mothers. With the social services available in Britain it is not necessary for the general run of people to ask for help.

550. Deputy Gilhawley.—In this rescue operation what societies do you expend money through?—In Britain it is the welfare organisations who look after the unmarried mothers. That is the only category of society we go through, otherwise we assist directly.

551. Do we subscribe any money towards the Irish Centre in London?—Not directly.

How is that? They do exceptionally good work?—This, I may say, is a policy matter which has been discussed at some length in the Dáil and I would not like to trespass into the policy debate here. This is an issue which has been discussed and there are arguments for and against. The Minister has felt that the argument against the State subsidising societies is that if they helped one individual they would have to help all others. When you operate on a voluntary basis you are able to be more discriminating in regard to who needs help.

552. Chairman.—There was a Supplementary Vote on this subhead. Is the expenditure under this head much increased from that of the previous year?—There was a special problem in this particular year because of the civil war in Nigeria. We assisted 118 people from there, and because of the distance there was a substantial cost of over £11,000 odd. These were Irish citizens, both lay people who were in difficulties and some of our missionaries who needed repatriation.

553. Deputy Gilhawley.—Could we have the names of the societies through which we distribute this money?—We do not actually distribute through a society. We refund to them the actual payment they make in a particular case. They are mainly diocesan rescue societies.

554. Deputy Briscoe.—Is there any way of assessing how many Irish people there are in the UK?—One way we can do it is from the British records. You can get guidance from the number of Catholics in the country. Do you mean Irish born as distinct from Irish descent?

Yes.—Probably you would get this from the figures for passenger movements by land sea and air, the British records and Church records and by putting the results together.

555. Deputy Treacy.—Could you say what percentage of those people who have been assisted by way of repatriation would have called to our embassies as distinct from persons who would have been brought to your notice through the various religious and cultural organisations?—The only ones we deal with through societies are the unmarried mothers. In the other cases they would come themselves. By and large, they come themselves. I would say that on the Continent of Europe and in Nigeria they would call to our offices themselves. In Britain they might be referred to us by Irish organisations or societies or the individuals might come themselves. The people we are concerned most with are the unmarried mothers or those who have special problems.

556. May I take it there is a tendency to be liberal in respect of assistance of this kind and that there are not too many regulations laid down in respect of the granting of assistance?—In the case of people outside Britain we take them home by the cheapest method. In the case of Britain we have to be satisfied the person is in need of special care and assistance. We could not contemplate catering for everybody who turns up in the embassy saying: “I want to go home.”

557. Chairman.—On subhead F.—Information Services—what exactly does this cover?—It covers mainly the distribution of the Department’s bulletin which is circulated abroad and the production of films for distribution abroad. The biggest other item in this particular year was the visit of a team of German journalists to Ireland. We occasionally bring over journalists from other parts of the world to show them our economy at first hand so that they can get a better understanding of our country from this point of view, to show the progress that is being made and to get rid of any misconceptions they may have about us.

558. Does it cover any information given to emigrants, particularly in regard to hostels?—Not under that subhead. Of course, our embassy in London would give that information to anybody requiring it. Our embassy in London also encourages the formation of Irish societies in Britain to help our emigrants. We have an officer assigned to look after this. Our people in different parts of Britain are visited to encourage them to form such societies.

559. Deputy Healy.—Does it cover the making of films?—Yes. There were two films finished during the year. One was a geographical film for America and the other was a film on Errigal which was produced by Patrick Carey.

Is there any programme for this year?— Every year we have a programme.

I hope they are up to your usual standard. They have been praised internationally?— Thank you.

560. Chairman.—On subhead G.—Official Entertainment—how does this compare with the previous year?—There is a substantial increase due mainly to the successful effort of Bord Fáilte and others to attract international conferences to Ireland. There has been almost a 50-per-cent increase in the number of international conferences and conventions held in Ireland. These have been both Governmental and non-Governmental. It is normal practice that the Government should give them some gesture of recognition by way of a reception. The increase in the number of those conferences in a sense reflects the success of this policy and is the main reason for the increase here.

561. Deputy Healy.—The idea is that the Department gives a special reception for the visitors at those conferences?—Yes. The Minister whose functions most closely relate to the particular organisation which is coming here gives the reception. It could be any type of organisation. To give you an example, there was the Association of Surgeons of Great Britain and Ireland, the European Bridge Championship and so on. Those are examples from a broad cross-section. The Minister whose functions seem to be closest to the particular operation would host the Government reception for the visitors.

Chairman.—The money would come from this Vote?—Yes. This money covers entertainment by all Government Departments.

562. Item 2 of the Appropriations in Aid refers to the “Yeats Country” film. Has the film travelled outside this country?—Yes, very much so. It has travelled throughout the world and has won international prizes in some film festivals. It has also, I believe, almost paid for itself.

563. The first Note refers to a sum of £103,680 which was paid to the Office of the Revenue Commissioners for fee stamps for Consular Services. Is that amount in respect of passports?—All the Consular Services rendered by the Department are normally paid for by affixing stamps to documents and the main bulk of these documents would be passports.

564. Deputy Briscoe.—Is there an increase in the number of passports being issued each year now?—The trend in recent years has been upwards because of increased travel.

Has this levelled out at all?—I understand that there seems to be a continuing increase. There is, of course, a noticeable increase in travel every year and this could be said to be due to increased facilities.

565. Deputy Healy.—On the third Note, may I ask what gifts were purchased for £291?—This figure was made up in the main by the purchase of presentations for the Prime Minister of Italy, for President Johnson and for the Prime Minister of Denmark.

566. Deputy Gilhawley.—How did the claim for £450. referred to in the last Note, arise in connection with damage incurred by fire?—That arose because of a fire in our Embassy in Brussels. Among the property damaged was some of the personal property of the Ambassador. He happened to have a personal insurance policy which covered the greater portion of the loss but as the fire did not occur through any fault of his, the State felt that they were responsible for recouping him for some of the loss. We would have been responsible for all of it if he had not had a private insurance policy.

567. Chairman.—Is there a special policy with regard to the private property of officials?—No. The State carries normally its own insurance and in instances in which officers lose property each case is examined on its merits. If the liability rests with the State, it is up to the State to replace the lost or damaged property. Fortunately, this sort of thing very seldom happens and the case in point is the only one that I am aware of in recent years.

VOTE 46—INTERNATIONAL CO-OPERATION.

Mr. H. McCann further examined.

568. Chairman.—Regarding subhead C.4 —Contribution towards Expanded Programme of Technical Assistance, may I ask the accounting officer what specific benefit accrues to us in respect of this technical assistance?—This is really part of the contribution of developed countries towards helping the less fortunate ones. The developed countries regard themselves as having a responsibility in this matter and this is part of our effort in this direction.

569. Are we on the receiving side?—Yes, in one case from the Special Fund. There are three technical assistance programmes; first, there is the regular technical assistance programme which is paid for out of the regular U.N. Budget; there is this expanded programme which is under Subhead C.4 and there is also the Special Fund programme which deals with broader pre-investment activities.

570. Who decides which country is underdeveloped?—It is partly the people who are giving out the money and partly those who are looking for it. However, there are fairly clear criteria based on national income per head and so on but there are, obviously, marginal cases.

571. Deputy Gilhawley.—Does subhead C.5.—Contribution towards the United Nations Emergency Force—refer to our Forces in Cyprus?—No, this is the force which was in the Middle East and which was withdrawn in May, 1967 owing to disagreement among the Governments involved as to its continuance.

572. How many had we there in 1966-67? —None in UNEF but the Deputy may be thinking of UNTSO in which the number we had was 18.

573. Deputy Gilhawley.—This was our voluntary contribution to this operation?— We regarded our UNEF contribution as mandatory.

574. Deputy Briscoe.—The contributions tot up to the £200,000 mark. I think the goodwill which we enjoy from many countries throughout the world, as a result of our generosity for a country of our size, has repaid us for the amount of money laid out? —That is true. Our contributions are not generous in relation to what our proportionate share would be. Our greatest contribution to the undeveloped countries has, of course, been not in money but to send doctors, teachers and personnel and our efforts to train personnel sent to us. It is the voluntary action of individuals which has perhaps been our greatest contribution to these countries.

575. What percentage would this represent? Was there not an attempt made to give a percentage of the gross national product?—Our contribution to the United Nations gives a reasonable yardstick of what our voluntary money contributions should be. In 1967 our UN contribution was 0.16 per cent of the total budget of the UN. I think it is true to say that our total contribution to most of these voluntary funds is less than 0.16 per cent. In the case of this particular one, the United Nations Emergency Fund, our proportion is exactly 0.16 per cent, which is related to our contribution to the United Nations generally, increased by the provision that the developed countries should give an additional 25 per cent as compared with their proportionate share to make up for the reduced share of the economically less developed countries.

576. There are many countries who have not paid their contribution to the United Nations?—There are some countries who did not accept their obligation to make payments to UNEF. We regarded payment to UNEF as mandatory under Article 17 of the Charter. The Soviet Union and certain Arab States did not contribute. There was a question whether Article 19 of the Charter about voting rights should be applied.

577. Is it being pressed that these people should pay their share in the United Nations?—Constantly. When this issue came to a head about Article 19 the United Nations as a whole was not prepared to face up to withdrawing voting rights under the Article.

578. Deputy Gilhawley.—Is our contribution higher due to the fact that others have not come up with their contributions?—It is higher partially because the developed countries took 25 per cent more than the undeveloped countries. By a process of arithmetic because some have not paid those who have paid are saddled with more if one is to meet the full cost. The final accounts have not been worked out in the UNEF operation.

Deputy Briscoe.—I think that the USA has paid more than their share all along?— Yes. They tend to pay more than their share.

579. Deputy Treacy.—In respect of all these various contributions to various agencies of the United Nations, could we have any idea as to how the cost is apportioned? Is there a specific demand made on us which we normally pay?—No. If there are funds which are regarded as a mandatory charge, we pay in relation to the percentage of contribution to the UN. Most of these subheads are voluntary funds. The need is pointed out and one is pressed to make the maximum contribution. We then decide in the light of our economic circumstances what we can afford with the intention that as our circumstances improve we should do better. We try to help to improve the lot of less fortunate countries.

580. Is subhead C.1—Contribution to the United Nations—a specific contribution to the United Nations?—No. It is our membership contribution.

581. How is that laid down?—The contributions are fixed on a percentage assessment of the budget based on the comparative estimates of national income subject to certain modifications.

582. Deputy Briscoe.—This would vary from year to year?—It varies slightly but not to any great extent. The general trend is upwards, like all budgets.

Deputy Crowley.—You would need a computer to work it out?—Our actual contribution varies slightly from the Estimate as we had not the final figures at the time of preparation.

583. Chairman.—Are the contributions fixed in an arbitrary fashion?—The voluntary contributions are what we can afford to give. It is what we can give in any particular year subject to the agreement of the Minister for Finance. What is appropriate is also a matter for him. In calculating it we have regard to what our proportionate share might be bearing in mind our scale of contributions generally.

584. Deputy Healy.—What is the position of the Overseas Trainee Fund, set out on page 149?—This Fund is part of our effort to help to train people from the less developed countries in administration, local government, et cetera. As you will see, there were no payments during the year but we did have people in Ireland during the period in question. They were financed mainly by fellowships and scholarships and from other sources. We did not have any payments ourselves but we did provide assistance in the form of training of one type or another.

585. Chairman.—Have we drawn on this Fund in previous years?—Yes. There were two teams of Zambians here who came for training in adminstration and in local government.

586. This year we have none?—No. That does not mean there was no activity. There was, but it was paid for by other interests.

587. The Fund does not yield any interest?—

Mr. Suttle.—It is only a book entry and part of the common balance of the Paymaster General.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 42—POSTS AND TELEGRAPHS.

Mr. J. A. Scannell called and examined.

588. Chairman.—Paragraph 73 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General is as follows:

“Stores

73. A test examination of the store accounts was carried out with satisfactory results.

In addition to the engineering stores shown in Appendix II as valued at £3,202,788 on 31 March, 1968, engineering stores to the value of £40,655 were held on behalf of other government departments. Stores other than engineering stores were valued at £486,961 including £220,434 in respect of stores held for other government departments.

Including works in progress on 31 March, 1968, the expenditure on manufacturing jobs in the factory during the year amounted to £48,504, expenditure on repair work (other than repairs to mechanical transport) to £133,156, and expenditure on mechanical transport repairs to £20,534.”

589. Chairman.—There was an expenditure of £48,000 odd. I take it this is mostly maintenance work?—Mostly maintenance. We do a certain amount of construction, specialised work connected with Post Office equipment which firms here will not tender for. Roughly, the division is nearly 90 per cent maintenance and 10 per cent or so construction.

590. You have to service all other Departments as well?—Yes, we do a small amount of construction work for other Departments but it is not basically in competition with manufacturers. If we can get a manufacturer to quote reasonably, we would prefer them to do it.

591. Chairman.—Paragraph 74 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General is as follows:

“Revenue

74. A test examination of the Accounts of postal, telegraph and telephone services was carried out with satisfactory results.

The net yield of revenue for the years 1967-68 and 1966-67 is shown in the following statement:—

£20,500,000 was paid into the Exchequer during the year leaving a balance of £1,494,195 at 31st March, 1968, as compared with £2,386,260 at the end of the previous financial year.

Sums amounting to £5,951 due for telephone services provided in prior years were written off during the year as irrecoverable.”

592. Deputy Crowley.—What other sources of revenue has the Post Office besides those mentioned here and the Savings Bank? Are there any other sources of revenue?—Not it you interpret the postal service in the broadest sense that it covers postal orders, money orders and so on and then, in effect, we charge other Government Departments for work we do for them. For instance, we pay widows’ and orphans’ pensions, children’s allowances; we pay British postal orders, and so on. We charge for this just as they charge us if they make payments for us.

593. The reason I ask is that there is a trade directory being prepared and the people preparing it have to pay for the rights to you?—Yes, that is so new I forgot it. They will be paying us a certain percentage.

594. Is the amount a large amount?—It will depend on the volume of business they get. We set this job for competition and accepted what was regarded as the best tender.

Mr. Suttle.—It is all accounted for in the Commercial Accounts.*

Deputy Crowley.—I was looking through the Commercial Accounts and did not see it.

Mr. Suttle.—You would not see a single item like that.

595. Deputy Crowley.—What I was interested in mainly was the amount paid for this service, if that is a figure we could have.

Mr. Suttle.—That would normally be considered to be a confidential figure.

Mr. Scannell.—Yes, that is so. We do not publicise the terms of an individual contract because competitors would be seeking to tender the next time.

596. Deputy Briscoe.—This was put out to tender?—It was. It is no secret that four, five or six—certainly a number of firms applied for this job and all quoted various terms. It was referred to the Government Contracts Committee and the firm who in the judgement of the Contracts Committee submitted the most favourable tender were given the contract.

597. Deputy Treacy.—Not necessarily the lowest?

Deputy Crowley.—The highest in this case. I suppose that would really have nothing to do with the length of contract—it would be more or less for decision by the Government—it would not have anything to do with the Accounting Officer as such?

Mr. Suttle.—It would but in a case like this it would be a case of judgement as to what would be the most economical way of dealing with the matter. It might give a better result to give a contract for three years.

Deputy Crowley.—Or four years.

Mr. Suttle.—Or four years—as against a single year where a man might say that he would get the contract only for one year. Each contract of that nature is determined on the individual circumstances.

598. Deputy Briscoe.—Is it reasonable to ask was it an Irish company that got the contract?

Mr. Scannell.—It was certainly an Irish based company. If my recollection is right, most of the companies who tendered had affiliations or contracts with some foreign companies who had experience of this work.

Deputy Crowley.—It was an Irish subsidiary of an American based company?— An Irish subsidiary of an American based company, as far as I know.

599. The printing is actually carried out in Ireland?—It will be.

600. Chairman.—Paragraph 75 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General is as follows:

“Post Office Savings Bank

75. The accounts of the Post Office Savings Bank for the year ended 31 December 1967 were submitted to a test examination with satisfactory results. The balance due to depositors, inclusive of interest, amounted to £137,509,300 (including £21,244,600 in respect of liability to Trustee Savings Banks) on 31 December 1967 as compared with £130,469,307 at the close of the previous year. Interest accrued during the year on securities standing to the credit of the Post Office Savings Bank Fund amounted to £8,078,397. Of this sum £4,682,958 was applied as interest paid and credited to depositors, management expenses absorbed £424,855 and the balance, £2,970,584, was set aside towards provision against depreciation in the value of securities.”

601. I see from this that there is an increase in the balance due to depositors of £7 million. Is that due to the increased interest rate?

Mr. Scannell.—It is very difficult to say. If I could go back on my own experience of years ago when the reverse thing happened and we made an exhaustive examination of trends to see if we could discover the reasons for it and even consulted the Statistics Office, the result was completely nil. You could not pinpoint the reasons. I am afraid that in this case I should not like to say what was the particular reason.

Chairman.—Was there not a one per cent increase in interest rates that year?—Yes, there was.

Mr. Suttle.—I have the figures back as far as 1963. In 1963 it amounted to £120 million, in 1964 it amounted to £126 million, in 1965 to £129 million, in 1966 to £130 million and in 1967 to £137 million.

602. Deputy Briscoe.—Would this be due to people getting higher incomes? Would that be one of the factors involved rather than higher interest rate?

Mr. Scannell.—Possibly. Sometimes when people put money into the savings bank it is merely a means of saving for holidays or some such item of expenditure.

603. Chairman.—We have the Post Office Savings Bank accounts and the Trustee Savings Banks accounts.* What would the increase in the latter be for the full year?

Mr. Suttle.—It is slightly over £1 million. It was £3,259,900 increased to over £4 million. The excess is £1.4 million.

604. Deputy Treacy.—Regarding the securities held by the Post Office Savings Bank, the accounts show a deposit of over £2 million with the Bank of Nova Scotia? Could we have some information on this?

Mr. O’Reilly (An Roinn Airgeadais).— We have money on deposit with the Bank of Nova Scotia. Normally we put any surplus money which we need to keep temporarily without permanent investment into the savings bank. In this case the bank of Nova Scotia gave us a loan some years ago and we agreed that we might at times keep some money on deposit with them. In fact in that particular year the rate of interest paid by the Bank of Nova Scotia was somewhat higher than we would have received from money invested here.

605. Chairman.—On subhead B—Travelling and Incidental Expenses—there has been a substantial increase on expenditure for travelling. Is there any reason for this?

Mr. Scannell.—This covered the period when we had the TV spongers campaign which was decided on after the Estimate had been settled. The increased expenditure was caused by travelling by Post Office personnel acting as investigation officers. There was also extra travelling by engineering staff, and expenditure on other items such as payment to consultants employed to look at the organisation of work in the engineering branch. That would be roughly something over £15,000.

606. Deputy Briscoe.—As a result of the TV spongers campaign what was the percentage increase in the licence fees? Would you know offhand what it was over the previous year?—I am afraid I could not give you that figure offhand.

Was it successful?—We regarded it as a successful campaign.

Deputy Gilhawley.—It justified the expenditure?—Yes. If you like I can send you a note on that.

Deputy Healy.—I would like to know as soon as possible the amount that was recovered, so to speak. I realise, of course, that would not cover one year because some of those people are paying now.

Deputy Briscoe.—It would be interesting to have the figure also notifying us how many television sets there are, although I suppose you would not know that?—We are a bit chary about drawing too many conclusions. We can give you a picture of what happened but why it happened is another matter.*

Deputy Treacy.—May we take it that payment of licence fees has now reached a satisfactory figure?—I am sure there will always be a need to make people realise the necessity for payment.

607. Chairman.—On subhead C.—Accommodation and Building Charges—have we any sites awaiting building?—There are a large number. Difficulties may occur in development in a number of ways—change in the technical requirements, changes in the physical requirements of the post office and so on. It may happen for reasons not within anyone’s control that the development of sites is deferred. There is also the question of planning permission which affects us in some instances.

608. Deputy Briscoe.—Under subhead D. —Conveyance of Mails—may I ask if there is a tendency to have rural postmen travel in motorised vehicles rather than on bicycles?—Yes, there are two reasons for this. Firstly, the service is more efficient and, secondly, it is more economical. A survey of postmen’s routes is carried out regularly by the Post Office and as people retire it may be possible to change the lay-out of two or three routes or, perhaps, even more.

609. Chairman.—Does the conveyance of mails refer specifically to letters?—This conveyance means conveyance of letters and parcels over the main routes whether internal or external.

610. Deputy Gilhawley.—How are contract men appointed? Is it by the established tender system, and does a man have to supply his own van?—We look for an outside contractor to carry the mails from one town to another and people are invited to tender, but may I say that the lowest tender is not always accepted. We must be sure that the person is capable of carrying out the contract. The one service I referred to before was the motorised route; we supply a Departmental van to be driven by a postman who will deliver mails along the route.

611. Deputy Briscoe.—CIE would be used a lot for transfer mail?—For the main one, Yes. A lot of the night loads are carried by them.

612. Chairman.—How do the services by sea, by airmail, by road and by land compare? Are they all paying?—You may take it that in general, the over-seas airmail service pays while internal services provided in sparsely populated areas may not pay.

The over-seas service pays in general?— Yes. These figures under subhead D. relate merely to the conveyance of mails from, say, Dublin to Cork or from Portlaoise to Waterford.

613. Deputy Briscoe.—What would be involved under subhead I.—Losses?—It could be money which was stolen or misappropriated by a member of the staff or it could be compensation which we might have to pay for parcels lost or damaged.

614. Deputy Briscoe.—On subhead K.— Grant equivalent to Net Receipts from Broadcasting Licence Fees (Grant-in-Aid)— is it proposed to make any attempt to make television rental companies liable to ensure that licences are purchased with each set rented out, as is done in England? In other words, whenever a television rental company rents a set, they are obliged not to release the set until they have seen the licence. Have we thought about it?—It was announced in the Dáil that the Minister contemplated, amongst other things, legislation covering this question.

615. Chairman.—On the explanation of the causes of variation between expenditure and grant for subhead F.—Engineering Stores and Equipment—what arrangements exist in regard to cross-Channel cables, for instance, as between Britain and ourselves? —The general maintenance of the cross-Channel cable is done by Britain and we split the cost.

616. Chairman.—On Appropriations-in-Aid, there is a difference between what you estimated and what you realised under a number of headings. Under two of them the sum estimated and the sum realised is the same. Could you explain that?—They would be figures which had been agreed beforehand with the Meteorological Services of the Department of Transport and Power and with the Revenue Commissioners as proper for payment. They are probably figures which we have arrived at as applying for a number of years based on the actual volume of work done.

617. I take it that the other figures would represent the actual cost to you. Would I be right in assuming that the two cases I have mentioned could be less than the actual cost?—These are services for an agreed figure. They have an agreed figure which probably lasts for a number of years and is subject to revision. These are just payments from one part to another. They represent very small fractions of the total revenue and I do not think it would be worth while striking a new figure every year. There was an agreement between the Department of Transport and Power and ourselves. We pay so much a year for so many years and then look at it again in the light of the volume of business.

618. Chairman.—It appears you have an arrangement lasting over two or three years. Does this system apply in respect of the others?

Mr. Suttle.—Receipts in respect of social welfare service is probably so much per unit of volume. We know the volume of work carried out. I think it was a question of avoiding having to do annual costings. It would be from one pocket to another. They just take a provisional figure and revise that figure every few years.

Chairman.—This avoids unnecessary annual costings?—Exactly. It represents only a fraction of the total.

619. Deputy Briscoe.—Would it be appropriate to ask about reverse charge calls to England and America. Can one at present make a reverse charge call to America?— I am afraid I cannot answer you that offhand, but I can send you a note about it.*

Deputy Briscoe.—From the point of view of extra revenue, the revenue would be considerable if such an arrangement could be made. Would that be a matter of policy?

Mr. Suttle.—It is a question of international agreement. I do not know what the position would be there.

Deputy Briscoe.—We can leave that one over.

620. Deputy Briscoe.—Are there any people waiting for the installation of telex? —Yes. There is a waiting list which is under 30. We are hoping to be able to reduce it progressively.

Thank you, Mr. Scannell.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 26—LOCAL GOVERNMENT.

Mr. M. Lawless called and examined.

621. Chairman.—Paragraph 29 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General is as follows:

“Motor Vehicle Duties

29. A test examination of the revenue from motor vehicle duties, etc., was carried out with satisfactory results. The reports of the Local Government auditors who examine the motor tax transactions of local authorities are made available to me.

The gross proceeds in 1967-68 amounted to £11,544,765 compared with £10,453,353 in the previous year. They include fines amounting to £246,125 collected by the Department of Justice; £8,361 in respect of fees received under the Road Traffic Act, 1961, Road Traffic (Public Service Vehicles) Regulations, 1963; £11,652 fees collected by Planning Authorities in respect of appliances and structures for servicing vehicles; £46,621 fees received by the Department of Local Government pursuant to the Road Traffic (Licensing of Drivers) Regulations, 1964, and £78,368 received from government departments in respect of State owned vehicles.

£11,595,621 was paid into the Exchequer and £5,868 was refunded leaving a balance of £102,413 compared with £159,137 at the end of the previous financial year.”

622. Chairman.—I should like to ask the Accounting Officer how much of motor revenue was retained under section 17 of the 1966 Finance Act?

Mr. Lawless.—I understand that in that year the figure was £1,378,621.

623. Chairman.—For how many years has this retention been going on—this is the third year, I think?—It was provided for in the Finance Act, 1966. I think the first year in which the money was retained was 1966-67. Last year—I am speaking from memory—I think the figure was £1,200,000.

This is the second retention?—This is the second year.

624. Deputy Briscoe.—Are there many summonses annually for untaxed vehicles?— I have not got the number of summonses but we have the amount in fines and penalties. It is, approximately, in 1967-68. £246,125.

625. I wonder how many vehicles that would represent?

Mr. Suttle.—That would cover all sorts of lines.

Mr. Lawless.—Yes, for parking and all kinds of things.

Deputy Briscoe.—I am thinking of a similar type of campaign as is carried out in the case of the TV sponger.

Mr. Suttle.—The penalties for untaxed vehicles would have to be more severe than for non-payment of TV licences. A police matter is a court matter. Only the Department of Justice would have those figures.

Mr. Lawless.—Yes. They may possibly be in the records of the Department. We may have got the figures from the Department of Justice at some time but, unfortunately, I have not got them with me.

Mr. Suttle.—The figure of £246,125 would cover all kinds of fines. The proportion for untaxed vehicles would be comparatively small, I think.

Mr. Lawless.—I would think so, yes. Most of it would possibly be parking fines.

626. Chairman.—The last Report of the Committee of Public Accounts dealt in paragraph 20 with the administration of a local taxation office.

Mr. Lawless.—I think, Mr. Chairman, I mentioned at a previous hearing that the corporation had arranged for an O and M team to carry out a study at the motor taxation office. In all, I think about ten main recommendations were made and so far six of these have been wholly or almost wholly put into operation. In addition, I think some of the pressure has been relieved by reason of the fact that motor tax is not now paid as it used to be on the basis of a calendar year; motor tax can now be taken out for any month for a period of 12 months and, according as new cars come on the road, the pressure on peak periods is falling. The Local Government Auditor has told us that he has found conditions have improved as compared with the year 1964-65. I think that was the year which gave rise to most of the criticism.

Deputy Treacy.—It has improved considerably?—Yes.

627. Chairman.—The alteration in the legislation would make it very easy for them?—Yes. Apart from that, an O and M team have investigated and the recommendations fall under ten heads and six have been implemented and the remaining four have been considered.

628. The Minute of the Minister for Finance in reply to the Committee’s Report stated that the matter was under investigation. What is the up to date situation?—We got a copy of the O and M report some time, about July or August last year, for our information, and we are continuing to press the corporation to improve the situation there but generally we are satisfied that there has been a good deal of improvement.

629. Deputy Treacy.—The paragraph refers to a sum of £11,595,621 being paid into the Exchequer. Could I have some idea of what that was?

Mr. Suttle.—That is mainly collected through the road tax account, put into the central account and handed over to the Exchequer and from the Exchequer the bulk of it is handed out to the Road Fund.

Mr. Lawless.—If you wish I can give you a breakdown on that. The amount lodged in the motor tax accounts is £11,161,999; fines and penalties lodged to the central motor tax account by the Department of Justice, £246,125; Payment in lieu of tax received from Government Departments and offices in respect of State owned vehicles and lodged to the central motor tax account, £78,368; fees in respect of appliances and structures for servicing vehicles paid to planning authorities and lodged to the central motor tax account, £11,652; fees received pursuant to the Road Traffic (Licensing of Drivers) Regulations and transferred from the account of the Vote for the Department of Local Government to the Exchequer, £46,621. The total comes to £11,544,765.

630. Chairman.—On subhead J.—National Building Advisory Council—has that been terminated?—Yes, it has been merged with An Foras Forbartha.

631. Had they any assets?—No. I think the final process of the winding up has been almost completed. Any assets would be in the form of desks and chairs and they have all been transferred to An Foras Forbartha. The Board of An Foras Forbartha has been expanded to take in some people who were members of the building advisory council.

632. Subheads K. to O.—Urban, Rural and Minor Employment Schemes—refer to schemes which will replace the grants formerly given. Does this apply to special schemes by the Board of Works?—This is the last year of the operation by the special employments schemes office. They have now been transferred to local authorities.

633. Deputy Gilhawley.—On subhead M. —Minor Employment Schemes—there is £4,205 less expenditure than that granted. How did that occur?—There were really two reasons for that. First of all, a number of schemes were still in progress at the end of the year and they were carried forward into the following year. In other words, there was a slight delay in starting the schemes. That was caused to some extent by the fact that in the previous year the amount provided was much less and therefore in the year 1967-68 a sudden spurt had to be made. The result is schemes were late in some places. Another reason is in a few electoral divisions the amount allocated was not taken up for some reason or other. The main reason was that there were not enough schemes. It is not always easy to find a suitable scheme in a district which fulfils the conditions for the giving of a grant.

I think the way that it is working out is that they join two electoral divisions together?—It results very often in schemes being late starting.

634. Chairman.—Do those schemes apply to all counties?—The minor ones were confined to the congested areas.

635. On subhead O.—Rural Improvements Scheme—was this scheme suspended for a period?—In the previous year the amount provided was much less for the Special Improvements Scheme than it was for the year before.

636. Was it suspended completely for a period?—There was one year, 1956-57 in which there was a very small amount provided.

637. Deputy Briscoe.—What kind of improvements would they be?—Mostly accommodation roads for farmers.

Mr. Suttle.—There are some details in the Estimate.

638. Deputy Treacy.—On subhead P.— Miscellaneous Services—is this grant solely for the purpose of rehabilitation of itinerants? If not, for what other purpose is it used?—The rehabilitation of itinerants only forms part of it. Some money also was provided for assistance to an Chomhairle Leabharlanna. There are four parts to subhead P. The first was a grant to an Chomhairle Leabharlanna, the second was allotments, the third was a statutory payment to a local officer who was originally employed in Derry and removed from office there and the fourth was the rehabilitation of itinerants.

639. How much is taken up by itinerants? —It is £3,000 out of a total of £23,000.

It is not very much?—It is because the pace at which local authorities are proceeding with the schemes for providing camping sites for itinerants is very slow.

640. Deputy Briscoe.—I visited Labre Park some weeks ago. How much did the Department of Local Government pay towards that site?—It is entitled to a grant of, I think, either 40 per cent or 50 per cent. I cannot say what it is offhand.

There must be another bill?—I think the position is that Labre Park was occupied for the first time in December, 1967 and in 1967-68 no claim was received from Dublin Corporation.

641. Deputy Treacy.—I would be interested if we could have a breakdown of this £3,000 in relation to itinerant camps?— I have that for the Deputy. £511 went to Kildare County Council for a camp site about a mile outside Droichead Nua and a payment of £850 was made to the Dublin Itinerant Settlement Committee towards the cost of the employment of a social worker in respect of the seven-month period up to 31st March, 1968.

642. Deputy Briscoe.—I hope that other local authorities will take the lead of Dublin Corporation and open up these sites. It is really an education to visit Labre Park?— We have, in fact, invited local authorities to come to see Labre Park and we have written to local authorities on numerous occasions pointing out what can be done and we have cited Labre Park as an example.

643. Deputy Treacy.—How many families are being accommodated there?—There are approximately 40 families and a school has just now been opened beside it. The site is very interesting and is well worth a visit.

644. Deputy Gilhawley.—Under the Explanation relating to subhead A, what staff were provided for but were not appointed? —They were mostly driver testers. We find it extremely difficult to get these. Our full complement of driver testers is, I think, 40 in all but we have appointed 24. We are also short of engineering inspectors.

645. The inspection of houses throughout the country is very slow. There appears to be a great shortage of staff?—It is extremely difficult to get engineering inspectors. We took in some trainee planners into the Department to see if we could get them to sit for the examinations leading to a planning qualification who at the same time would provide some assistance in dealing with planning appeals but that scheme did not prove as successful as we thought it would.

646. Some years ago the Department took in clerical workers and trained them as inspectors for, say, reconstruction jobs. Could that not be done again?—We have about nineteen building inspectors at the moment. Again, we find it very difficult to get good building inspectors. Our full complement of building inspectors in 1967-68 was almost taken up. I understand that 20 were provided for and that we actually had 19 on the staff. The main shortage of staff was for driver testers and temporary engineering inspectors.

647. The position at the moment with regard to driving tests is terrible. A person down our way had to wait four months from the date of his application to the date of the driving test?—At the moment a competition is taking place for new driver testers and we hope to get about sixteen from this competition.

648. Deputy Briscoe.—How many applications did we get?—I have not got the actual figure but I know that the interviews would take up a full month.

The competitions must be very rigorous? —I should prefer that they would be so. The standard of driving has improved substantially since the introduction of these driving tests.

649. Chairman.—Are these driver testers located all over the country?—We have a number of centres throughout the country.

650. Deputy Treacy.—For my own enlightenment may I ask if a British driving licence or a Continental one is accepted in this country?—Yes, but for short duration only.

Deputy Treacy.—So that one would have to do the test in the ordinary way after a specific period here?—Yes.

651. Deputy Briscoe.—Surely it would be much better if an agreement could be made between Northern Ireland, Great Britain and ourselves?

Chairman.—That is a policy matter.

Deputy Treacy.—I realise that.

Mr. Lawless.—We are having informal discussions on that point but it is not so easy to clear up.

652. Deputy Gilhawley.—Another matter is that if a person who is successful in a driving test does not apply for a licence within six months, he must sit for the test again?—That was true. The period now is twelve months.

653. Deputy Treacy.—I take it, Mr. Lawless, that the foreign driving licences to which I refer are only acceptable here for holiday purposes?—Generally speaking that is true. Not for regular residents.

654. Chairman.—The note to item 6 of the Appropriations in Aid refers to rates of local contributions for the Rural Improvements Scheme. Under that scheme what percentage contribution must the local people make now? It is mentioned that it was reduced last June?—In that particular year the rates of contribution were reduced on the 8th June, 1967. Since then they have been reduced again. Generally speaking where the average rateable valuation was under £5 the old scale of contribution was 10 per cent. On the 8th June, 1967 that was reduced to 2½ per cent. Some months ago it was wiped out entirely. That accounts to some extent for the reduction in the estimate of the amounts received by beneficiaries.

655. Chairman.—Does it apply for higher valuations as well?—Under £10 valuation it was 15 per cent and on the 8th June, 1967 it was reduced to 10 per cent. Between £10 and £15 it was 20 per cent and it was reduced to 15 per cent. For the higher valuation from £75 to £100 it was actually increased. For a valuation of £100 and over it was increased from 50 to 60 per cent. There will be very few of those cases.

Could we have a note on that?— Certainly.*

Deputy Gilhawley.—We got the scale and distributed it to all the county councillors in Sligo.

Mr. Lawless.—I will send it to the Committee. I will send the old scale, the scale as amended on the 8th June, 1967 and as amended last year.

656. Deputy Briscoe.—On the Road Fund Account† how much would be spent on television advertising about road safety?— The figure on road safety amounted to £71,586. I could give the Committee a breakdown of that. Road safety literature came to £29,739. Production and purchase of films and of TV filmlets, which are short films on TV, amounted to £13,577. Grants to Safety First Association of Ireland amounted to £24,833. Expenditure on road safety campaigns was £1,733. Grants to local authorities were £1,704.

657. Deputy Gilhawley.—Could you give us the figure for road improvement grants for the year before last? The grants paid to local authorities?—Last year’s figure was £6,857,619.

658. Deputy Gilhawley.—I thought there was a reduction last year?—It is £7,262,000 this year. Does the Deputy want the amount paid to each local authority?

Mr. Suttle.—£6,857,000 was paid in road improvements the year before the year we have under consideration here.

659. Deputy Gilhawley.—What was road maintenance that year?

Mr. Suttle.—£1,553,795.

660. Deputy Briscoe.—I see that £36 5s 6d was spent in research on the problem of alcohol and driving.

Deputy Treacy.—This is rather a tiny figure having regard to the important problem. Drunken driving is a very serious factor.

Mr. Suttle.—Last year the figure was £698.

Mr. Lawless.—There was a Committee on drunken driving and I think this is the winding up figure. I cannot say offhand but I think it would be the wind up of the expenditure in connection with that.

661. Deputy Treacy.—Are the findings of this committee being made available?—They were published. There was a report of the Commission on Drunken Driving. It was published.

Recently?—In 1963.

662. Deputy Briscoe.—Has this anything to do with the legislation that the Minister was introducing?—That is right. The Road Traffic Bill was based on some of the findings of the Commission, but not all. The Government did not accept all their findings in relation to the tests for drunkenness.

663. Deputy Gilhawley.—If I may go back to the road grants paid to local authorities, would it be possible to speed up the notification of those grants? It is difficult for local authorities to strike a proper rate when the notification of that allocation has not been received. Last year we struck our rates in the month of February and we did not get notification of the grants until June?—I will bear the Deputy’s representations in mind. We will have them considered.

Chairman.—That is an old administrative problem. Thank you, Mr. Lawless.

The witness withdrew.

The Committee adjourned.

* See Appendix 19

* See Appendix 20.

* See Appendix 21.

* See Appendix 22.

* See Appendix 23.

† See Appendix 24.