Committee Reports > List of Committees > Dáil > 1968 > Committee of Public Accounts > Report - Appropriation Accounts 1967 - 1968

MIONTUAIRISC NA FIANAISE

(Minutes of Evidence)

Déardaoin, 28 Samhain, 1968.

Thursday, 28th November, 1968.

The Committee met at 11 a.m.

ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN

1. Deputy Healy.—I propose that Deputy Hogan be elected Chairman. On behalf of the Committee I would like to compliment him on his work on this Committee.

Deputy Briscoe.—I am very glad to support the proposal.

Question.—“That Deputy Hogan be Chairman of the Committee”—put and agreed to.

DEPUTY HOGAN took the chair

2. Chairman.—Thank you very much, gentlemen, I feel highly honoured to be chosen again as Chairman of this Committee.

Mr. E. F. SUTTLE (An tArd Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste) called and examined.

GENERAL REPORT

Mr. T. K. Whitaker called and examined.

3. Chairman.—Paragraphs 1—7 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General read as follows:

“GENERAL

Outturn of the Year

(Adjusted to the nearest £)

1. The audited accounts are summarised on page xxx. The amount to be surrendered as shown in the summary is £6,191,763 arrived at as follows:—

This represents 2.2 per cent of the supply grants, as compared with 1.9 per cent in the previous year.

In no case has the provision made by Dáil Éireann been exceeded and no excess vote is, therefore, necessary.

Exchequer Extra Receipts

2. Extra receipts payable to the Exchequer as recorded in the Appropriation Accounts amounted to £3,453,965.

Surrender of Balances on 1966-67 Votes

3. The balances due to be surrendered out of votes for the public services for 1966-67 amounted to £4,984,937. I hereby certify that these balances have been duly surrendered.

Stock and Store Accounts

4. The stock and store accounts of the Departments have been examined with generally satisfactory results.

National Development Fund (Winding-up) Account

5. This Account has been closed by transferring the balance, £340,930, to the Exchequer.

6. Statement of Receipts into and Issues out of the Central Fund for the Year ended 31 March, 1968.

7. In addition to the issues shown in the previous paragraph advances of £300,000, £20,000 and £46,000 were made from the Capital Fund to Agricultural Credit Corporation Ltd., Radio Telefís Éireann and An Bord Iascaigh Mhara, respectively.”

4. Chairman.—In paragraph 6, would the Accounting Officer explain the item under the heading “Repayments in respect of Issues under the following Acts” which relates to unapplied sinking fund of 6% National Loan, 1967, surrendered . . . £904,598?

Mr. Whitaker.—That loan was redeemed and at the redemption date £17.4 million was outstanding. The holders agreed to convert £14.3 million of that £17.4 million into new loans offered to them and the balance of £3.1 million was paid off in cash from the Sinking Fund. There was still a surplus of £900,000 odd in the Sinking Fund. That was then transferred to the Exchequer.

5. Deputy Healy.—Under the same heading £87 relates to Tourist Traffic Acts 1939—1955. What is this?—That was just a casual repayment in respect of a loan made to Gaelachas Teo., the Cork Irish College.

6. Chairman.—On paragraph 7, will advances continue to be made from the Capital Fund to the Agricultural Credit Corporation, Radio Telesís Éireann and Bord Iascaigh Mhara?—Not necessarily. Last year, or the year before, I explained that this Capital Fund arose from the special levies imposed in 1956. It was set up to receive these levies because the intention was that the proceeds of the levies should be used for capital purposes. In the course of time the total capital sum built up in the Fund came to about £12 million and that is invested in various State enterprises, including the Agricultural Credit Corporation in which a shareholding of £200,000 was subscribed from the Capital Fund. The ESB and Bord na Móna and Irish Shipping are the biggest investments of the Capital Fund. This capital amount of £12 million produces interest every year and there is also a certain amount of repayments of advances. The annual interest earned by the Fund is roughly £⅓ million, and in order to dispose of that we continue to make new capital advances from the Fund for particular purposes. In recent years we have applied it usually to Bord na Móna. In this particular year there are three items which you will see in paragraph 7—Agricultural Credit Corporation, Radio Telefís Éireann and Bord Iascaigh Mhara. There is no particular reason for choosing these except that the amounts conveniently added to roughly the total at the disposal of the Capital Fund for issue in that year.

VOTE 1—PRESIDENT’S ESTABLISHMENT.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker called.

No Question.

VOTE 2—HOUSES OF THE OIREACHTAS.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker called.

No Question.

VOTE 3—DEPARTMENT OF THE TAOISEACH.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.

7. Deputy Briscoe.—The third note reads: “The Account of the Vote for the Office of the Minister for Finance includes expenditure of £72 in respect of an officer temporarily lent, without repayment, to this Department.” It is very small but I would be interested to know was this just an amount that would normally be repaid?—The usual practice where a loan occurs is that the Department that lends the person bears the cost if the loan is purely temporary, I think if it is for less than six months. If it goes beyond six months then the borrowing Department has to take over the charge. In this particular case it was a Clerk Typist lent for seven weeks to the Taoiseach’s Department and the cost was borne by the Office of the Minister for Finance because the loan was so temporary.

VOTE 4—CENTRAL STATISTICS OFFICE.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.

8. Deputy Healy.—The explanation of the causes of variation between expenditure and grant for subhead A states that the saving was due mainly to the large number of vacancies which were not filled during the year. Are we to take it from that that the vacancies are still there and that the Department is understaffed? —It is almost chronically short in both the clerical grades i.e. Clerical Officer and Clerk Typist, and also, unfortunately, in the statistician grade although there has been an improvement in the recruitment of statisticians just recently. I understand that on average during this particular year there were about 20 vacancies in the clerical grades. This was due to delay in recruitment and to a very high turn-over. These are mainly girls who come in, stay for a short while and go off to some other job leaving a chronic vacancy situation in the Office.

9. Deputy Briscoe.—The compilation of these statistics is usually done by girls rather than by men?—It is done at this level by Clerk-Typists and Clerical Officers. Of course all the Clerk-Typists are ladies and the Clerical Officers are a mixture, predominantly women.

10. I am surprised to know that there is difficulty in obtaining clerks. I was under the impression that there were a lot of people looking for jobs as clerks in the Civil Service?— Apparently there are a lot of people looking for jobs but there is an enormous turn-over. Between 30 and 40 in these grades leave this office every year and the difficulty is to try to get newcomers to stay to replace them.

11. Is this because of the nature of the work—that it is very boring for them?—It is a phenomenon all over the Service in these grades but particularly I think in the Central Statistics Office and probably for the reason mentioned by the Deputy—that it is not the most exciting or interesting work.

12. Deputy Healy.—When girls are recruited to an office like this are they there forever? Is there no transfer to other Departments or promotion?—They tend to be static. One can get out of a particular grade either by promotion or by doing some other examination and succeeding in it and then one may be assigned elsewhere but the trouble here is not that people who are five or six years there get bored; it is rather the people who are only five or six months there who are leaving.

13. Deputy Briscoe.—If you engaged more male clerks, paid them that bit more money than they would usually get for this kind of work you would get a greater degree of efficiency which would in fact lower your costs because of the lower labour turn-over and therefore people would be more familiar with their work. Has this been given consideration? —I am sure it is being considered because this is not a problem confined to the Central Statistics Office, it is a pretty general one.

14. Deputy Molloy.—When you have vacancies for these positions they are advertised and the applicants must qualify in an examination. I understand there is a list of qualified applicants drawn up and they are called from that list according as the vacancies arise. My experience in local authorities is that you have a large number of names on those lists, in other words that you have quite a number of people seeking the jobs. If those who get them leave, surely there are other people to replace them on the list?—We find that there are two hurdles to cross here. From the open competitive examination you get a list of people who are qualified. Then you start calling them and you find that a good many of them are not interested because they have gone elsewhere. Then even when you do get people to present themselves and sit down at a desk you have the experience we have been describing of their staying only a short while and going somewhere else. There is a much greater mobility now among young people because there is a much greater variety of job opportunities. You do not have to go into one place for good.

15. How long is the list active before you hold another examination?—For a whole year in most cases.

16. Is it not rather impracticable to expect a girl to wait 12 months, to expect that she would still be available 12 months later?—One does not really expect it. The effort is made immediately to get all you need. There is no delay there but the delay arises when you find that people drop out and say: “We are not interested any longer”. Then you have to go further down the list and even then they may not stay very long.

17. Deputy Healy.—This is a problem you get all over the country in local authorities. Last week I found that they were sending for the 38th clerk typist on the list and that list will not be completed until 31st December. This position regarding Clerk-Typists is not confined to the Civil Service. It is general. I think, as Deputy Briscoe says, that they should start looking for male operatives as an alternative. It might be good for the country too.

Deputy Molloy: Male typists?

18. Deputy Briscoe.—I want to make a point here. This is a layman looking in on this thing trying to help you with your problems as it were. Do they have to have the Intermediate or Leaving Certificate before they can take this examination?—Not necessarily but most candidates do in fact have these certificates.

18a. The work in itself I would imagine would not really demand that that person would have to have all those qualifications. I know it is a starting point and a basis for interview. If the general system for this particular work was that an intelligence test was done, that those people were given simple questions to answer would that not be better? Very often people miss passing examinations by a few marks and yet they would still be perfectly capable of doing this work. It would seem that there must be a tremendous untapped source of available people ready to jump in and do this work, who have failed to pass the Intermediate and Leaving Certificate examinations but who would be quite capable of being trained in a very short while. You could first satisfy yourself those people could add 2 and 2 or something of that nature. Would that be any help?— I am afraid I have to say I would not be optimistic because even with the existing qualifications, there has not been an improvement. In fact there has been a deterioration in the standard of typing and of spelling and so on and to contemplate going down further on the educational scale would be a bit frightening.

19. I am sure I shall be misunderstood on this but maybe the people who are doing this work are fitted for a much higher degree of work and this is why they fall off. People with lesser talents, if you like, might not make as many mistakes?—We have in the Civil Service career opportunities open to anyone who wishes to move up the scale to administrative officer grade. With regard to the two grades mentioned, the requirement for the clerical officer grade is that the applicant should have passed the Intermediate standard but in the case of the Clerk Typists it is only that they have reached seventh standard Primary School. In fact the competition throws up people of much higher attainment but, strictly speaking, anyone with just the minimum qualifications is eligible to come before the interviewers and examiners.

Mr. Suttle.—In the last, I suppose, 10 years outside employment has become much more attractive than Civil Service appointments. We had the sad experience in our own office in that we recruited executive officers and higher grades and within a short time after holding the examination one of the first people we got to take the job had got 385th place in the examination and he was called in immediately but the bulk of them went for better employment outside the Civil Service or were going on for further education by way of university scholarships.

20. Deputy Molloy.—Is Dublin no longer available to adequately staff the Civil Service? The sooner you decentralise the better. There are plenty of people down the country who would love the jobs available in the Civil Service?—I hope they will come up.

Maybe you should advertise in the provincial papers.

Deputy Healy.—The mountain might have to go to Mahommed.

VOTE 6—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.

21. Chairman.—Paragraph 8 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Subhead KK.—Payment to Special Regional Development Fund (Grant-in-Aid)

8. To assist economic projects in certain regions £250,000 was provided as a grant-in-aid and paid into the above Fund. As indicated in the account of the Fund appended to the Appropriation Account grants totalling £61,551 and repayable advances amounting to £67,300 were issued during the year. Loan agreements have been, or are being, prepared to secure the repayment of the advances. A receiver was appointed on 5th April, 1968, over the assets of Potez Industries of Ireland, Ltd. which had received an advance of £18,000 from the Fund.”

22. Have you anything to add to that, Mr. Suttle?

Mr. Suttle.—This paragraph is for the information of the Committee. The account dealing with this particular Fund is on page 12 of the Accounts. The advance of £18,000 referred to in regard to Potez Industries of Ireland, Ltd. was made in two instalments in January and March, 1968, and secured by a second mortgage, dated 26th March, 1968, on the assets of the company. The Receiver was appointed by the Industrial Credit Company and the Ulster Bank, Ltd. who hold first charges on the assets of the company.

23. Deputy Briscoe.—What is the position regarding Potez? Do the Government have the first claim?—Mr. Whitaker.—First of all I should make it clear that this is the Potez factory in Galway, not the aircraft one. In fact the first mortgage, as the Comptroller and Auditor General said, was held jointly by the Industrial Credit Company and the Ulster Bank so a second mortgage is the only thing available for this particular loan of £18,000.

24. Chairman.—Its location then places it under the special Regional Development Fund?—Yes. The Fund, as you see from the account, has been used in some other ways in the West to try and keep industries going that seemed to be having a difficult time.

25. Deputy Molloy.—Is that what the Fund was intended for, that it would assist firms in difficulty?—It has done that to some extent. I am not saying that was its primary business. Its primary business is to extend employment in the West but of course it is relevant to that to try to preserve any employment which exists.

26. Deputy Molloy.—Has the assistance given to those firms proved of any great value to them with regard to continuing employment?—I think you can rule out the Potez one as a loss.

27. We understand that but what about the others?—There are a number of others which are doing reasonably well. You can see in the accounts on page 12 a mention of Slievebawn Cooperative Handcraft Market Ltd., Irish Farmhouse Preserves Ltd., Talty Brothers, and G.W.I. Ltd.

28. Is the Slievebawn Cooperative run by the ICA?—It has been sponsored by them.

29. Were they in financial difficulties?— They were not in that particular category. They were being assisted to expand. At one stage I think G.W.I. Ltd. were in that category— needing some temporary help.

30. Why did the Portumna Packers Cooperative Ltd. get assistance?—I would have to look that up. I am afraid my notes do not run to that particular case.*

31. Would this not be the type of work the ICC should have been providing money for? Since they got into financial difficulties is there not financial support for them?—When they get to that doubtful stage it is because they cease to be good prospects for commercial lenders and some special arrangement has to be made for them.

32. Deputy Molloy.—I understand that the Galway Textile factory has got financial assistance out of this Fund. They are not here. I am under some misapprehension about it?— Perhaps they got assistance since last March.

No. They were not assisted out of this fund obviously. They are not listed?—Obviously not in the period up to March, 1968.

33. Deputy Briscoe.—Would it be minimum payments that would be paid from this Fund, and anything over and above a certain figure would not come under this Fund? In other words it is called Special Regional Development Fund. Would it be for small amounts rather than for large amounts?—The policy would be to try and spread this amount with the utmost effect over the whole Western area and not to use it all up on any one particular venture. Even in those cases where some special aid is being given, the idea is not to waste it on absolutely hopeless cases but only to give it during a difficult phase when new plans are being worked out.

34. Deputy Molloy.—I must come to Galway Textile factory. Where did they get assistance when they found themselves in similar circumstances to some of the firms you have listed here?—The Galway Textile factory is not in this account.

35. I would expect to see the Galway Textile factory listed here. From the explanation you have given here I understand that the Department of Finance were the people who provided the money to help them over a difficult period. The factory has recovered and is providing steady production. I want to know where did they get the money if it was not from this Fund?

Mr. Suttle.—They could have got it from the Industrial Development Authority.

Deputy Molloy.—I understand they got it from the Department of Finance.—Mr. Whitaker.—They may have got money since last March.

36. Chairman.—Bord Fáilte Éireann are shown as having received £44,000 for miscellaneous small tourist ventures. Could we have some information on that?—May I just take some examples? In all cases these are grants towards bigger total investments by local interests. For sea angling a grant of £9,000 odd was given to five small firms in the West to provide small boats or boat slips. That was £9,000 odd out of a total investment of £20,000 odd.

37. Deputy Molloy.—Could I have the name of the firms?—I have them here: Achill Island Caravans Limited; McHugh Enterprises, Achill; Kerry Boats Limited; John B. Healy, Cahirciveen; and Westport Tourist Development Company for a boat slip. There were also inland waterway grants to five firms to provide cruisers on inland waterways. Tralee Boat Club was given a grant for the provision of yachts for hire. Two firms were given funds for capital investment for horse-drawn caravans for hire.

38. Deputy Healy.—They would be expected to put up a fair share of the money themselves?—In all cases the grant is only a fraction. It is normally less than one half of the total investment.

39. Deputy Briscoe.—This was the first year this Special Regional Development Fund has been in operation. When did it actually start?— I think a small initial provision for special aid to projects in the West was made by supplementary estimate in the previous year 1966-67. I recall it was in the Budget for 1967-68 that the £¼ million was provided.

40. It seems to be an excellent thing. I wonder are all companies who might benefit aware of it?—There are a sufficient number of people aware of it and interested in it to produce applications which exceed the amount available.

41. Some would have been turned down because of the nature of their ventures which would not have satisfied the Department of Finance that they were viable propositions?— The Department of Finance is helped by the County Development Teams which are much more aware of the particular local circumstances.

42. Deputy Molloy.—The actual development teams are the bodies who make the suggestions to the Department of Finance?— They process them and make the recommendaions.

Chairman.—Is it confined to Western counties?—Yes, Mr. Chairman.

43. On subhead B.—Management of Government Stocks—is the management of Government Stocks entirely handled by the Department of Finance?—It is handled for us on an agency basis by the Bank of Ireland and the Central Bank mainly. The Land Bonds are looked after by the National City Bank and most National Loans by the Bank of Ireland but in recent times we have been handing more of the National Loans business to the Central Bank.

44. Deputy Briscoe.—The amount of money shown here is for fees?—Yes. There is a certain small percentage per million pounds which is the agreed fee for the banks.

45. Chairman.—On subhead E.—Institute of Public Administration—does the Institute secure public funds from any other source?— Local authorities and semi-State bodies who are corporate members of the Institute pay an annual membership fee. As well as that, these bodies have to pay fees for courses to which they send their staff.

46. Deputy Briscoe.—Have they now got the necessary personnel?—They have at the moment but they are going to have to undertake big expansion of their training function in the future because the public service obviously needs much more systematic training arrangements.

47. Deputy Briscoe.—On subhead F.— Economic and Social Research Institute (Grant-in-Aid)—have they now recruited research personnel?—There is an expansion programme on the social side which is still being developed. On the question of staffing, the Institute is approaching closely to satisfaction of its needs.

48. Is the main function of the Economic and Social Research Institute the presenting of reports on the economic situation? How would you describe it?—Its main function is to do research, that is, to analyse situations and produce information that would be helpful to policy-makers. That applies also on the social side. For example, social research would try to establish the attitude of work people towards income differentials, what motivates people when strikes occur, and that sort of thing. This would be helpful in formulating policy.

49. How long has this Institute been set up? —The economic side has been in existence since, I think, 1961.

Chairman.—It has changed its name?—It was The Economic Research Institute up to a few years ago when it was decided to branch into social research as well.

50. Chairman.—On subhead H.—Savings Committee—is the Accounting Officer satisfied that there has been a good effect from this Savings Committee? Has it brought about any improvement from our Savings Banks point of view?—One must say to that that all the factors working to-day are rather against personal saving. As it was necessary to inform the Dáil recently, there has been a falling off in small savings in spite of the efforts of the Savings Committee. It is not their fault. The whole climate is against savings. Improvements have been announced in small savings, which it is hoped will help the Committee to get things moving in a positive direction again. We were tending to lose money from the Savings Bank, but not from Savings Certificates which are quite good.

51. Deputy Molloy.—What do the Savings Committee do to promote savings?—They are in charge of all the publicity arrangements. Apart from the amount in this Vote, £48,500 for publicity is provided in the Post Office Vote. They try to organise group savings by actually sending their staff to various factories. They also go to schools to encourage youngsters to start saving.

How successful have they been in factories, first of all?—It is hard to measure their success.

52. How many groups have they started?— They have had a good deal of success in the factories, of course not as much as they would like.

How many factories have started a savings group? In the case of schools do you know the figure?—I have not the number, but can let you have a note on that.*

53. Deputy Healy.—I know that in Cork county there were photographs of children being awarded prizes. What we want to measure is how great is the tendency to save, so as to assess the value of the Savings Committee? Managers in some schools have taken a great interest in this. They are very proud of the progress made and other schools have made none. Some managers are good and others do not bother at all?—May I say in answer to Deputy Molloy that in more than 2,000 national schools children’s savings are, in fact, being collected during school hours by the issue of savings stamps, and savings rose from about £184,000 in 1958 to £300,000 in 1965-66.

Deputy Briscoe.—This is from school children?—Mainly.

54. Deputy Molloy.—How many thousand national schools have we? Two thousand is only a small percentage of the total?—I’m not sure of the percentage.

55. Ba mhaith liom tagairt a dhéanamh do Chomhlacht Comhairleach na Gaeilge (subhead G)?—Tá a fhios ag an Teachta, cad tá i gceist?

Nil?—Do chuir an Rialtas Páipéar Bán amach ar athbheochan na Gaeilge. D’fhoilsiodh pleananna an Rialtais agus bunaíodh Comhlacht Comhairleach chun cabhrú leis an Rialtas a pholasaí maidir le athbheochan na Gaeilge a chur i gcrích. Is é an Rialtas a chuir an Comhlacht seo ar bun agus is é gnó an Comhlachta comhairle a thabhairt don Rialtas faoi athbheochan na Gaeilge, nó polasaí an Rialtais um athbheochan na Gaeilge. Chuir siad an chéad thuarascáil amach bliain ó shin agus tá an dara cheann ar tí cur amach anois.

Tá sin sásúil. Molaim an obair atá á déanamh acu.

56. Deputy Briscoe.—On subhead J.— Grants to County Development Teams—how are they paid?—The grants are required to pay the cost of providing the teams with secretaries and secretarial assistance.

57. How many of these teams exist?— There are 13—five in Connacht, three in Ulster, one in Clare, one in Kerry, one in West Limerick, one in West Cork and one in Longford.

58. These secretaries are paid a certain amount, depending on the amount of postage, et cetera, they have to do, plus salaries?—Yes.

Is it possible to find out what salaries they are paid?—They are paid salaries within the range of about £1,900—£2,400.

59. Chairman.—How are they appointed?— They were originally recruited on a temporary basis, but it was decided this year that they should be permanent. The present holders of the posts have been appointed civil servants in the public interest, but new recruits will be appointed through the Civil Service Commission procedure. An open competition was recently advertised and held.

60. Apart from the open advertisement, was there some kind of competitive test?—There was an interview and the test included a screening of the candidate.

An examination?—Not a written examination, but certain minimum qualifications were prescribed. The rest was done by interview.

61. Deputy Healy.—Had the present team secretaries already been seconded from the local government service?—Either from the Civil Service or the local government service. Outsiders may, of course, be appointed from the recent competition.

62. Deputy Briscoe.—Who would have recommended the outsiders—the local development teams themselves? What I am getting at is that a certain number of these people come from the local areas. Outsiders coming in would have certain opinions and might be able to put ideas to the development teams. What proportion of the applicants would be recommended first of all by the local development teams as they existed before this scheme began?—I should like first of all to make it clear that every applicant came on his own. If he was able to quote as referees local people, that was taken into account. However, the majority of the team secretaries come from the public service, either local or central.

Their work, then, is to set up a development team?—They are the secretaries of the teams. The teams already exist before a secretary is appointed.

63. Deputy Molloy.—They are the only paid officers—everybody else gives his services on a voluntary basis?—Yes; the team consists of the county manager, who acts as chairman, the chairman of the county council, the chief executive officer of the county vocational education committee, the chief agricultural officer and the county engineer. All of these, with the exception, of course, of the county council chairman, are full-time officers.

64. Chairman.—Have we such a team in Tipperary?—Not in Tipperary.

65. Deputy Healy.—The team in Cork do excellent work. Do you think that in general the teams are doing good work?—From our experience, I would say yes. However, they have not been working long enough to make a full assessment.

Deputy Molloy.—They have been doing excellent work in Galway.

66. Deputy Briscoe.—They have been functioning about 18 months or two years?— They started in 1965.

67. Deputy Molloy.—They have no power to issue grants. They only assess new developments or developments already in existence and have them screened by the IDA?—Either by the IDA or the Department of Finance in relation to the Regional Development Fund, about which we were talking a few moments ago.

Deputy Molloy.—It seems to me that in certain cases, when only small amounts of money are involved, it would be fitting to give these regional development teams authority to issue small grants, say, of less than £1,000. We know what is happening at the top. There are many applications coming in which are not being dealt with quickly enough.

68. Deputy Briscoe.—On subhead K.— Special Aid to Projects in the West—the amount has not been used yet?—It was not used. It was replaced by subhead KK—Payment to Special Regional Development Fund (Grant-in-Aid). There is a sum of £250,000 involved.

69. Is the amount of this Fund which is not used surrendered?—It does not have to be surrendered. It is a grant-in-aid.

It can be carried forward?—The £250,000 is paid out of this Vote into a special account and anything that is not spent at the end of the year is available for the following year.

70. Deputy Molloy.—Could we have some explanation of subhead L.1—Public Services Organisation Review Group?—The group was set up, with Mr. Liam St. John Devlin as Chairman, to look at the organisation of the Departments at the higher level of administration and to suggest whether improvements could be effected—to look at the division of functions between Departments themselves and as between Departments and local authorities and State bodies.

71. Chairman.—Has there been a report?— We expect to have one in 1969.

Deputy Briscoe.—This was set up a few months ago?—It was set up in 1966.

72. Chairman.—I wish to go back for a moment to Subhead KK—Payment to Special Regional Development Fund. Have county development teams any function in respect of disbursements?—Recommendatory, shall we say, but not executive.

73. Deputy Briscoe.—May I ask another question on the Public Services Organisation Review Group? On the matter of any recommendations they may be making in their report, do you, as head of the Civil Service, have the authority to implement any of these changes, with which you would agree, before the report is issued?—That is hypothetical because, first of all, they have not issued even an interim report. I do not know what they have in mind. It is certain their report will be published. It is also certain it will have to be examined very carefully by Departments. Any decisions about changing the organisation of Departments would have to be taken at Government level.

I assumed you would have been on the committee of this group?—No. I am the victim as it were.

74. There are many answers which you could have provided for them. I would have thought from that point of view the value of having you on the committee—that you could have been consulting with them on some of the recommendations—would have been taken into account?—Actually they intend to call me before them very shortly because they are now obviously arriving at the point where they are making up their minds on some broad aspects. The Civil Service is represented on the committee by a former secretary of a Department, Miss Beere, and a former assistant secretary of the Department of Finance, Mr. Fitzgerald, so in that way they have at their command ready information on how the Service is working.

I can see the value of that. My question is not as foolish as would appear. You would need to have somebody with knowledge of how the Civil Service is run. It would be the same thing if we should set up a committee on how the work of Dáil Deputies is done and put people on it who have no knowledge of what Deputies do. You would get a lot of airey fairy suggestions.

75. Chairman.—We are getting those. It would appear there must have been a considerable amount of work done because of the expenditure?—The expenditure arises because they had to engage consultants to help them.

VOTE 9—STATE LABORATORY.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.

76. Chairman.—May I ask in general what type of laboratory work the State Laboratory undertakes?—They have to do a lot of analyses. For example, in that year there were 48,000 samples submitted to them for analysis, 19,000 came from the Revenue Commissioners. They were made up of spirits, wine, tobacco and medicines to make sure the right duty was being paid on particular commodities. The Department of Agriculture send in milk, fertilizers and things like that to be analysed to make sure they are up to the right standard. Creameries send up samples of dairy glassware. Those are the main items. Then, of course, they have to do analyses under the Coroner’s Act.

77. There was a practice for years by which county councils sent in sample drugs when they came to hospitals or dispensaries. Is that still in operation?—I cannot answer that with exactness.

78. It was always rather foolish because the type of tests which were done were very elementary and were not suitable to the requirements at all?—I am just looking up what was sent to the Laboratory. Under the heading of Health 23 samples of milk, 1 toy for testing the lead content, and from Dublin Health Authority, 4 samples of rat poison. I do not see anything to suggest that they are still doing the job of testing drugs.

It certainly was the practice to have those drugs tested but it was never really effective.

79. Deputy Briscoe.—I want to come to another point. I raised this at the Committee last year and I spoke about it in the Dáil. Foodstuffs or anything like that which come in by air are held up at the airport because of the length of time it takes for the State Laboratory to issue a report of their examination. It defeats the purpose of sending those goods by air if they are held up a long time. Those goods are required urgently and very often this is the reason why they are sent by air. I thought a separate section should be set up in the State Laboratory to deal with testing those goods, which are very often samples. I realise this may be policy but surely the testing of goods which come in by air should be done quicker than that of goods sent in by sea?

Chairman.—You would probably have raise that matter in the House itself.

80. Deputy Molloy.—That is a very practical suggestion by Deputy Briscoe and I support it? —You can clear goods of any kind through the customs at the airport immediately by paying a deposit which is refunded if the articles are not liable to duty. This should at least ensure that articles coming in by air get equivalent treatment to articles coming in any other way. I understand the normal delay, where goods have to be analysed and samples are sent to the State Laboratory, is two to three days. I imagine it would be very difficult to set up a counterpart testing arrangement at the airport, seeing one of the difficulties this office is labouring under is shortage of chemists.

81. Deputy Briscoe.—When you say two to three days, I should say it has been known to be a lot longer and very often when the people pay the duty on the goods even though they are not liable to duty they have to wait a long time to get their money back. If it is a big shipment it can constitute a lot of money to lay out. This is one of the big problems?—If you know of any specific case like that we would be glad to go into it with the Revenue Commissioners to see if anything can be done.

Thank you very much.

VOTE 10—CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.

82. Deputy Briscoe.—I see that under subhead B.—Travelling and Incidental Expenses— brochures on careers in the Civil Service have been printed. Might I ask was that for the purpose of recruitment?—This was a sort of careers brochure in colour. There were separate brochures of careers for school leavers and for university graduates.

83. Chairman.—Are the brochures free of charge?—They are. They are distributed to the schools and universities. The brochure for graduates would be available in the universities, and those for the school leavers are in the schools.

84. Deputy Briscoe.—Who designed them for you? Have you an advertising agency who did it?—Yes, it is done here in Ireland.

85. I would have thought you could have had something a bit more glamorous?—We are all inclined to agree.

I would suggest that expenditure of this nature could be wasted if it does not perform the function for which it was designed which, in this case, is to attract people into the Service. I think it should be made look more glamorous?—We are gradually coming out of our obscurity into the Twentieth Century. This is our first modest step forward.

Deputy Briscoe.—I approve wholeheartedly of this expenditure. I think that it should be taken further in doing this. Eventually these things do tend to reduce the cost of advertising because they get people coming to you voluntarily to offer themselves for the Service.

86. Chairman.—A number of leaflets have been issued by the Department of Labour. Is there any duplication?—I do not think there is duplication. The Civil Service Commission brochures are general and cover many openings for school leavers. They just give the minimum particulars. What the Department of Labour is doing is giving in detail information about the individual grades. This is a sort of general conspectus. The other leaflets fill in.

87. Deputy Briscoe.—Are these circulated in public libraries?—I doubt that.

Are they in the children’s libraries?—I think they are only available through the schools.

I think through the libraries is a very good way of getting it to the young people. If they could pick up one of these it would be helpful.

Deputy Healy.—It is a step in the right direction.

88. Deputy Molloy.—The Appropriations in Aid refer to sums received from the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. Could you tell me why there are such receipts from that Department?—The Department of Posts and Telegraphs for some years now charges all the Departments for the services it gives them. Reciprocally, every other Department charges the Post Office for any service it gives the Post Office. This receipt represents the cost of recruiting staff for the Post Office.

89. Why is it only the Department of Posts and Telegraphs?—They are, as it were, on a commercial accounting basis as distinct from the other Departments’ arrangements.

VOTE 11—AN CHOMHAIRLE EALAÍON.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.

No question.

VOTE 12—SUPERANNUATION AND RETIRED ALLOWANCES.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.

90. Chairman.—Paragraph 24 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads as follows:

“Subhead A.—Superannuation Allowances, Compensation Allowances, Pensions and Certain Children’s Allowances

Subhead B.—Additional Allowances and Gratuities in respect of Established Officers

24. Section 3 of the Superannuation Act, 1887, provides for the reckoning for superannuation purposes of service in a temporary capacity of a person who subsequently becomes established if, in the opinion of the Minister for Finance, any special circumstances of the case warrant such a course. Paragraph 20 of the Report on the accounts for the year 1951-52 indicated that the Minister for Finance had decided that, in the interest of uniformity, one-half of temporary service of established officers should normally reckon for superannuation. The Minister revised this decision with effect from 1st January, 1968, so that in the case of established officers retiring on or after that date full-time unestablished service will be reckoned in full for the purposes of the Superannuation Acts. The terms of this decision also apply as from 1st January, 1968, to the annual allowances of officers superannuated before that date.”

91. Have you anything to add to that, Mr. Suttle?

Mr. Suttle.—This paragraph is to draw attention to a decision by the Minister for Finance regarding the reckoning in full for superannuation purposes of the temporary service of officers subsequently made permanent.

Deputy Healy.—This is taking in their temporary service as well?—Yes. Up to this temporary service counted only as half service. Now it is full service.

92. Chairman.—In respect of subhead A.— Superannuation Allowances, Compensation Allowances, Pensions and certain Children’s Allowances—would you explain, Mr. Whitaker, the “certain Children’s Allowances” referred to?—When a civil servant dies who has himself been entitled to have children’s allowances for his children, the arrangement is that the children’s allowances continue to be paid in respect of those children to his widow. The entitlement of the deceased civil servant to these allowances continues. The children’s allowances are paid out of subhead A.

93. Deputy Briscoe.—On subhead I— Pensions to Resigned and Dismissed Royal Irish Constabulary, including Widows—these pensions were awarded to the Royal Irish Constabulary after the formation of the State? —Yes, where members of the force lost their positions, or entitlement to pension, because of the help they gave in the struggle for independence here. These pensions are really pensions for their having lost, through loyalty to Ireland, pensions to which they would otherwise be entitled.

94. These are constantly being reduced?— They are tending to die off.

95. Deputy Molloy.—For Extra Remuneration a figure of £2,879 is shown. How does this arise?—In this particular case a former Deputy Chief Inspector of Taxes was re-employed as a Senior Inspector after retirement.

96. Why was he re-employed?—He had reached the retiring age and then was reemployed because of the scarcity of Senior Tax Inspectors.

97. Why is it included as Extra Remuneration?—It is the rule to bring to light any pensioners who are already receiving their pensions and are re-employed.

VOTE 13—SECRET SERVICE.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.

98. Deputy Briscoe.—I see the figure has gone up from £7,000, what it was originally, to £9,000.

Deputy Molloy.—We are not allowed to ask any question at all on this Vote, even how many people are working in this Service?

Chairman.—No, I’m afraid not.

VOTE 14—AGRICULTURAL GRANTS.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.

99. Deputy Briscoe.—On subhead A— Primary Allowance—what are these agricultural grants made up of?—They are to relieve farmers of paying rates on their land. They give 100 per cent relief on a holding of up to £20 valuation. Between £20 and £33 valuation there is 100 per cent relief on the first £20 and rates are charged against the remainder. When you go over £33 valuation it is 80 per cent relief on the first £20 and supplementary relief of 30 per cent on the part of the valuation exceeding £20. Apart from all that —it is a complicated story—there is an employment allowance of £17 for all adult male workers over 16 years of age employed full time for the whole of the previous year. That comes under subhead C, Employment Allowances.

100. Deputy Molloy.—What is the purpose of putting valuation on agricultural land of £20 if they do not have to pay rates?—Up to now, the valuation figure would have been required for income tax purposes under Schedules A and B. In any event, all property has to be valued; otherwise, you would not know if it was under £20 valuation.

101. Deputy Briscoe.—Are these amounts paid to the local authorities in lieu of rates?— Yes. In the year in question the gross rates payable by farmers were £22.1 million. The agricultural grant was £15.6 million. That left the farmers paying a net £6.5 million which was 30 per cent of the gross. The other 70 per cent was paid out of this Vote to local authorities.

102. Chairman.—The local authorities make a contribution to it also?—No.

VOTE 15—LAW CHARGES.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.

103. Chairman.—On subhead D.—Witnesses’ Expenses, etc.—this expenditure has gone up. Was there an increased allowance paid?—In this particular year there was a backlog in the case of Dublin Corporation and Dublin County Council. They claimed for six quarters during this year instead of the normal four quarters. That would push up the total.

104. Deputy Briscoe.—On subhead E.—Fees to Counsel—I suppose these fees to counsel are for all cases where the Attorney General is prosecuting or defending, whichever the case may be?—Yes, and the fees are determined within a certain range by the Attorney General according to the nature of the case, the seniority of the Counsel employed, and so on.

105. Chairman.—These fees are paid to barristers conducting law cases on behalf of the State?—Yes, for example a Senior Counsel engaged on a murder prosecution case on behalf of the Attorney General and the State.

106. Chairman.—How is it determined which particular Counsel is chosen, or is there a panel?—The Attorney General is responsible for this. There is a roster, or panel, of people chosen by him—I suppose by reference to the particular type of legal case in which they specialise.

VOTE 16—MISCELLANEOUS EXPENSES.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.

107. Deputy Briscoe.—On subhead B.— Property Values (Arbitrations and Appeals)— what kind of valuations would these be?— Where lands are being acquired for some purpose and the price is being disputed, the question of compensation has to go to the arbitrator for arbitration. This comes under an old Act of 1910. It is where the State is acquiring lands for public purposes. It also applies to local authorities.

108. Chairman.—If there was action being taken against the State or a local authority concerning acquisition of land and damage had to be evaluated?—That would come under this heading.

109. Deputy Healy.—Under subhead D.— The Irish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children (Grant-in-Aid)—after the Society’s books have been audited there may still be a claim in respect of the amount outstanding, or are the funds forfeited because the audited accounts were not available at the time?—The position is that the Society is paid all they are entitled to under the pound for pound arrangement.

110. I am interested to know if they forfeit the balance if they do not have their accounts prepared. How is this figure of £4,706 arrived at?—The accounts were not available when the Estimate was prepared, but the amount that was actually issued was by reference to the accounts. This item merely explains why expenditure was £4,706 instead of £6,000.

111. Deputy Briscoe.—On subhead E.— Commemoration of Easter Rising 1916—who commissioned the writing of the historical essays provided for?—The Commemorative Committee.

112. Would this not have come under the Arts Council?—I do not think so. It stays here as an expense.

113. Is that not a little peculiar?—No. It had a specific reference to the 1916 commemoration and we tried to bring all items of expense in relation to that matter together and to keep them here.

114. Deputy Molloy.—On subhead F.— Nelson Pillar Damage Claims—is this the total amount paid out?—For the Nelson Pillar damage the total amount paid out was £10,000 odd, of which Dublin Corporation got more than £8,000 and 29 firms got the remaining £2,000.

115. What damage was done to the Corporation?—First of all, they had to clear away the rubble. Secondly, damage was done to underground watermains and sewers.

116. There were two explosions. Which explosion caused the most damage?—I am not sure if it is possible to discriminate. The first one did not cost us anything. The second one— apart from the question of damage—cost the Army £139 to demolish the Pillar.

Deputy Briscoe.—It is only fair to say that the second explosion was much more difficult to organise and I do not want to take away from the feat of the artists.

Deputy Molloy.—We are all glad the thing has been cleared away, cleared up.

117. Deputy Briscoe.—Under subhead G.— Dublin Grand Opera Society—this money was paid in respect of performances held by this body. Was it paid to the Gaiety Theatre?— This was a special sum given to wipe out the accumulated deficit, so to speak, a once and for all grant. They are assisted by An Chomhairle Ealaíon towards the running expenses, but the expenses they had in the past kept adding to their losses until they had accumulated a big overdraft. This grant wiped out that overdraft.

118. What is their overdraft at the moment? —It should be small because this £11,000 was intended to put them line ball at the beginning of 1968.

Therefore, this item may not be here next year?—It should not be here for some time to come.

119. Chairman.—To come back to subhead A.—The National Theatre Society, Limited— for a moment, has the final cost of the Abbey Theatre been determined?—I can only say that we have been assured that the amount we have provided to meet the cost will be sufficient to discharge all the outstanding liabilities but in view of the history of this case—

120. How much is estimated as being the final cost?—I think the final cost is estimated at £725,000.

121. What was the estimated total professional fees?—I will have to send the Committee a note on this.*

122. Deputy Healy.—Under the heading “Extra Receipts” there is an item in respect of a refund in respect of the Cork Opera House?— This £11,514 had been paid out of the Miscellaneous Expenses Vote in 1965-66 and paid from there into the Capital Fund to help with the cost of the Cork Opera House. Subsequently the Funds of Suitors were tapped to get the whole cost. Therefore, from the Funds of Suitors through the Capital Fund this particular £11,514 was paid back to recoup the public moneys voted. This was to ensure that the Funds of Suitors bore the whole cost and nothing remained on the Vote for Miscellaneous Expenses.

Deputy Molloy.—It is a book-keeping exercise?—Yes.

VOTE 50—INCREASES IN PENSIONS.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.

123. —Deputy Molloy.—Is this expenditure to cover increases granted to the public service in the Budget, the 12 per cent?—Yes, it is the 12 per cent increase which was to cover a rise in the cost of living between February, 1964, and June, 1966, when the tenth round came into effect.

124. Some of the pensioners claim they did not get the 12 per cent increase at all?—There may have been some cases where giving them 12 per cent would in effect have given them more than the increase in the cost of living. I understand that all pensioners who got increases in 1965—and these were the people intended to be covered in the Budget—got the full 12 per cent.

125. It was misleading to state that State pensioners were having their pensions increased by 12 per cent?—You will find there was no intention to mislead and that the increases paid were generally in line with the Budget Statement. If the full increase was not given in certain cases it was because it would have put them ahead of the others.

Deputy Molloy.—Therefore, they were ahead of the others before they got the increase and you are only maintaining the position which was in existence before the increase was granted.

126. Chairman.—The increase was 12 per cent and in certain cases under 12 per cent?—It was covered by Regulations which have been presented to the House.

Deputy Briscoe.—In other words it was not a blanket 12 per cent increase.

127. Deputy Molloy.—It was very misleading for the pensioners and I think even from the Deputies’ point of view. We all assume it was a 12 per cent increase all round but we discovered afterwards it was not?—I am sure when this Estimate was being presented the terms were given.

128. It was not given in the Budget announcement?—It would be difficult to do it there.

Why?—You could not go into all the details because it would require pages and pages.

129. There could have been something about it because as it was it was very misleading to those pensioners. When the Budget Statement is made they hear it on the wireless, sit down and work out how much they will get but when they get the actual increase they find it is not what they expected. Those people should have been altered?—There is always the odd case which is different and which cannot be covered in an announcement of an increase made.

Something should be done to meet the odd cases?—They are actually met by the increase given.

130. Deputy Briscoe.—I gather from what you said that this 12 per cent increase in pensions was granted to certain sections of the Civil Service. Is this correct?—It was granted not only to civil servants but to others in the Public Service such as teachers, the Gardaí and members of the Defence Forces.

Deputy Briscoe.—This was to cover an increase in the cost of living to some of those people.

Deputy Molloy.—It was given to all State pensioners.

Deputy Briscoe.—Is it not only to certain of them?

Deputy Molloy.—Some of them got the full 12 per cent and some did not. Mr. Whitaker has explained that the increase was only given to make up for an increase in the cost of living and some of them did not get the full amount.

VOTE 51—REMUNERATION.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.

131. Deputy Molloy.—What does this Vote refer to?—May I explain that this cost refers to the 1966 tenth round increase for grades above £1,200 but below Assistant Secretary and it also includes something for Post Office increases, mainly overtime and Sunday duty but the bulk of it is for the tenth round to those people. The people under £1,200 had already got the increase and it was decided to give it to the people over £1,200 but below Assistant Secretary grade.

132. What are we dealing with here? Are we dealing with those under £1,200?—We are dealing with the people over £1,200 who subsequently got this increase. In 1966-67 this increase was given to those under £1,200 and subsequently in 1967-68 it was extended to those over £1,200 but under Assistant Secretary grade. That had already happened in outside occupations.

133. Deputy Briscoe.—What are the figures?

Deputy Molloy.—There was £1,295,000 to pay the officials earning over £1,200. This does not include those under £1,200?—About £340,000 is to be taken off that for Post Office increases mainly for Sunday duty. The remaining £900,000 odd, which is the cost of the £1 increase, is broken down roughly in the same portion shown in the account as between the Civil Service, the Defence Forces and so on.

Contingency Fund Deposit Account.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.

134. Deputy Briscoe.—On the Contingency Fund Deposit Account on page 162 there is a reference to the expenses of a State funeral. Is it for something out of the ordinary such as this that this fund is used?—Yes, it is for something not costing more than £20,000 for which there is no existing provision in a Vote and which either costs very little as in this type of case or is required when the Dáil is adjourned and you cannot take a Supplementary Estimate.

Deputy Molloy.—It is a matter of some unusual expenditure?—Yes.

Chairman.—Thank you very much, Mr. Whitaker.

The witness withdrew.

The Committee adjourned.

* See Appendix 4.

* See Appendix 5.

* See Appendix 6.