Committee Reports > List of Committees > Dáil > 1964 > Committee of Public Accounts > Report - Appropriation Accounts 1962 - 1963

MIONTUAIRISC NA FIANAISE

(Minutes of Evidence)

Déardaoin, 14th Bealtaine, 1964.

Thursday, 14th May, 1964.

The Committee sat at 11 a.m.

DEPUTY JONES in the chair.

Mr. E. F. Suttle (An tArd Reachtaire Cuntais agus Ciste) called and examined.

2. Chairman.—Members of the Committee are aware that since this Committee last met Mr. Ó Cadhla who was the Comptroller and Auditor General has left the Service on retirement. I am sure the members of the Committee would wish to convey to him their appreciation of his services to the Committee and his kindness to the members here at all times. We have previously had with us in an advisory capacity our new Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Suttle. Personally, I am very glad to see him here as Comptroller and Auditor General and I am sure the members of the Committee are equally so. We hope he will be with us for a long time for the assistance and guidance of the members of the Committees of this House which from time to time will have the obligation of dealing with the affairs of this Committee. Also, on this occasion, we have with us a new Clerk to the Committee. Our former clerk, Mr. Browne, who has been acting in that capacity for quite a number of years—for longer than I remember on the Committee, anyhow—is leaving us. We have, as replacement here, Mr. Tobin who will be giving us the assistance of his advice in the running of this Committee in the future. I should like to take the opportunity of expressing to Mr. Browne my personal appreciation and, I am sure, the appreciation of the Committee for his valuable aid and assistance at all times and to extend a very sincere welcome to Mr. Tobin.

Mr. Suttle.—Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, for your kind remarks. I shall do my utmost to live up to the high standard one would expect from a person in the position to which I have been appointed.

GENERAL REPORT.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker called and examined.

3. Chairman.—The agenda this morning deals first with the General Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General which is contained in paragraphs 1 to 7. I shall run through these paragraphs and, if any member wishes to make any comment, it is open to him to do so and, if Mr. Suttle has any comments to make, he will give us his advice.

4. Chairman.—Paragraphs 1, 2 and 3 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General are as follows:—

“Outturn of the Year

(Adjusted to the nearest £)

1. The audited accounts are summarised on page xxxv. The amount to be surrendered as shown in the summary is £4,156,147 arrived at as follows:—

This represents 2.6 per cent. of the supply grants as compared with 2.1 per cent. in the previous year. The principal savings were:—

In no case has the provision made by Dáil Éireann been exceeded and no excess vote is, therefore, necessary.

Exchequer Extra Receipts

2. Extra receipts payable to the Exchequer as recorded in the appropriation accounts amounted to £1,113,692.

Surrender of Balances on 1961-62 Votes

3. The balances due to be surrendered out of votes for the public services for 1961-62 amounted to £3,092,750. I hereby certify that these balances have been duly surrendered.”

5. Chairman.—Paragraph 4 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads as follows:

“Stock and Store Accounts

4. The stock and store accounts of the Departments have been examined with satisfactory results.”

Mr. Suttle.—This paragraph was slightly changed this year because we have no criticism. We had no complaints at all to make about stores.

6. Chairman.—We are very pleased to hear that. Paragraph 5 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“National Development Fund (Winding up) Account

5. As indicated in paragraph 6 of the previous report the balance in the Winding up Account at 31 March 1962 was £780,875 (including £8,311 in the hands of agent Departments). Issues to agent Departments in the year amounted to £73,294, viz.:—

Statements are appended to the accounts of the relevant votes indicating the expenditure incurred on the various projects during the year under review.”

7. Chairman.—Paragraph 6 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“6. The expenditure on projects since the establishment of the Fund to 31 March 1963 was as follows:—

Expenditure on projects carried out by local authorities is examined by Local Government auditors whose certificates are made available to me. In the case of grants issued to the Inland Fisheries Trust, An Bord Iascaigh Mhara and An Óige, I have accepted their auditors’ certificates as evidence of the expenditure incurred therefrom.

The balance in the Winding up Account at 31 March 1963 was £707,648 (including £8,378 in the hands of agent Departments).”

Mr. Suttle.—With regard to paragraph 6, the bulk of the projects mentioned have been completed. There are only about four or five which are still active—mainly, the harbour works under the Department of Transport and Power and a few of the items under the Department of Agriculture, e.g., the production of foundation stocks of seed, the erection of the Pig Progeny Testing Station and the orchard planting in the Dungarvan area. Most of these will be finished by the end of this year and will leave only one to carry on for another year or two—the orchard planting in Dungarvan which is expected to finish in October, 1966.

8. Chairman.—We can now take paragraph and is as follows:— 7 which is for the Committee’s information,

“7.—Statement of Receipts into and Issues out of the Central Fund for the Year ended 31 March, 1963

Chairman.—If there is no comment on that paragraph we can go to the Votes.

VOTE 1—PRESIDENT’S ESTABLISHMENT.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.

No question.

VOTE 2—HOUSES OF THE OIREACHTAS.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.

9. Chairman.—On subhead H.—Expenses of the Restaurant—could you tell us how much the restaurant lost? They seem to have drawn the full amount of the Grant-in-Aid?—In this particular year, 1962-63, the certified losses of the restaurant as given in the audited accounts of the Joint Restaurant Committee were £2,579. That is rather more than the Grant-in-Aid. In other years, the certified losses have varied up and down in relation to the Grant-in-Aid. The general intention is that over a period of years the Grant-in-Aid will balance the certified losses.

Deputy Booth.—Then the position is that the Grant-in-Aid is not just to balance the losses but it is paid regardless of whether the loss is greater or less?—Regardless only of the particular year, because regard is had over a period of years to the amount of the losses so as to secure a balance between the total amount of the grant and the losses as certified.

Has the Joint Restaurant Committee brought forward a slight credit balance from previous years?—I think it is negligible in regard to the figures I have before me and, in fact, the provisions for last year and this year have been increased to take account of a probable increase in the certified losses.

10. Deputy Lalor.—On subhead J.— Witnesses Expenses — what are these expenses? What does this cover?—It is to cover the expenses of witnesses called before Select Committees of either House.

They would be outside witnesses?—Yes.

Chairman.—The Select Committee on the Health Services would be an instance at present.

11. In the notes on page 4, there is one in regard to extra remuneration which says that a reporter received an allowance of £103 for special duties. Could you give us any information in regard to the nature of the special duties?—I am afraid not offhand. I could send you a note on it.

Deputy Cunningham.—That would be the shorthand notetaker, would it not? We did have some outside reporters from the Press doing it, I think.

Chairman.—I think that would be a different matter. Mr. Whitaker will send us a note on it?—I shall send you an explanatory note on that.*

VOTE 3—DEPARTMENT OF THE TAOISEACH.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.

12. Chairman.—As regards subhead D.— Commission on Itinerancy—has that Commission reported? — The Commission presented its report on 8th August last year.

VOTE 4—CENTRAL STATISTICS OFFICE.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.

13. Chairman.—In regard to subhead A.— Salaries, Wages and Allowances—why was the Household Budget Inquiry postponed?— The reason for the postponement was simply pressure of work on the limited expert staff available at that time. I understand it is intended to hold this inquiry in the present financial year.

Was any portion of the money provided for it expended?—I think there was a complete saving as regards 1962-63.

14. Deputy Carter.—On subhead D.— Appropriations in Aid—what was the nature of the injury to the officer concerned?—I am sorry; I do not know that.

Perhaps Mr. Whitaker would later send us a note of it?—I shall send you a note.**

15. Chairman.—In regard to the note on extra remuneration, where we see that an Assistant Principal Officer received an allowance of £150 for special duties, I think last year I asked about this allowance and you told us at that stage he had specially responsible work to do in connection with the census. Is the allowance this year for the same work?—It is for the same work.

Is this work finished or almost finished?— There is a peak period of two or three years after each census when a tremendous amount of work has to be organised. I am not sure when the peak will be surmounted. It should not take more than two or three years.

We have not yet surmounted it?—I do not think so.

VOTE 6—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.

16. Chairman.—In regard to subhead A.— Salaries, Wages and Allowances —you mentioned that one of the reasons for the saving was the provision for industrial surveys. Are these particular to the Department of Finance? Would not the Department of Industry and Commerce be the place for industrial surveys?—These are surveys made under the Committee for Industrial Organisation—the CIO. The arrangement made was that survey teams would consist of a representative of the industry concerned, a civil servant, as such, who might be either from Industry and Commerce or Finance, and an economist, the economist being drawn, as far as possible, from the Civil Service— from Finance, or if our resources were exhausted, from outside the Service. The Department of Finance undertook to pay any fees out of their Vote in respect of the employment of outside economists on the survey teams. That is the explanation of the provision for industrial surveys—the cost of engaging economists from universities and elsewhere to take part in surveys by the CIO.

Deputy Carter.—Roughly, how many such surveys would be carried out?—Of the order of 20.

Chairman.—Was there any reason why the Department of Industry and Commerce would not carry all the expenditure in their Vote in regard to industrial surveys?—No particular reason except that it was a kind of joint operation between Finance and Industry and Commerce, and it fell to us in Finance to provide the expert economic aid. We felt, therefore, we had better pay for it. That is the only reason.

17. Deputy P. Hogan (South Tipperary).— On subhead B.—Remuneration of Banks for the Management of Government Stocks— does the Central Bank do any of the management of our National Loans or Land Bonds? —A little is now being done by the Central Bank. They have undertaken management of the Tax Reserve Certificates. The traditional situation was that the Bank of Ireland held the Registers of Government Stocks, and the Registers of Land Bonds were held by the National City Bank. We have, as I said, brought the Central Bank in on the last issue of the Tax Reserve Certificates.

18. Chairman.—In regard to subhead C.— Travelling and Incidental Expenses—I notice the Estimate included a contribution towards the expenses of the Economic Research Institute. Have you some way of assessing that or do you get a copy of their audited accounts?—The basis for it is simply that the Ford Foundation provide the main part of the assistance. What the Government do is provide the Institute with premises free of rent and the contribution we make in this subhead is by way of reimbursement of the economic rent.

19. On subhead E.—Savings Committee— does that relatively small amount cover the radio and television expenses of this Committee?—No. That would be a sizeable amount. They are met by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and largely recovered from the Post Office Savings Bank Fund on which they are a final charge. Roughly, the publicity expenditure would be of the order of £20,000.

20. On subhead F.—Appropriations in Aid —in respect of the university training of officers, how is that scheme proceeding? Have any completed their course and returned full time to the Civil Service?—I am afraid we must admit it has been a disappointment. It did have the very good effect of increasing greatly the number of candidates for Executive Officer appointments. We had about a trebling of the normal previous number of applicants and tremendous interest was shown in the early years in the possibility of getting a full time university scholarship. We found that some did not stay the course, but that was a very small number—one or two. We found one or two others were reluctant, on completing the course, to come into the Civil Service: they had developed a liking for academic life and wanted to pursue mathematics or science or something else much further. Then we found, to our dismay, among last year’s applicants we did not get anybody who wished to go forward—for several reasons. One was that the number of ordinary scholarships—county council, corporation and so on—have so increased in recent years that many of these bright boys already are equipped with scholarships and they have a choice of accepting a local authority scholarship or one of ours. Though ours is a much better one in many respects, they prefer to take the local authority scholarship because there are no strings attached. If they take the local authority scholarship, they can engage in any type of employment when finished, whereas if they take the Civil Service one, they are under an obligation to come back into the Civil Service or, if not, to repay the amount of the scholarship which, of course, is a very big sum. It represents full pay as Executive Officer for a period of three or even four years, plus the cost of the university fees. The total would be something like £1,200 for a successful scholarship holder who completed the course. It is a very big obligation to undertake at the age of 17 or 18 years. We have had to withdraw the scheme this year for reconsideration. We shall probably have to change the terms and conditions.

Deputy Cunningham.—Not alone the fees but the amount of the salary payable during a period of three years must be repaid?— That is the full obligation. In fact, we have reduced the obligation to the extent that anybody who had another scholarship and gave it up in favour of ours would not have to repay that much. It seemed a reasonable concession.

Deputy Clinton.—What is the minimum period in the Civil Service to which you bind officers who have got a scholarship?—I think it is ten years.

It is a pretty long time?—It is not the number of years which is the deterrent but the fact that at 17 a person does not know his own mind or whether he wishes to make the Civil Service a career.

21. Deputy P. Hogan (South Tipperary).— What exactly is the Savings Committee?—It is a voluntary group of non-civil servants, public-spirited people who advise on means of promoting national savings.

VOTE 11—STATE LABORATORY.

VOTE 12—CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION.

VOTE 13—AN CHOMHAIRLE EALAION.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker called.

No question.

VOTE 14—SUPERANNUATION AND RETIRED ALLOWANCES.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.

22. Chairman.—On subheads A. and B., regarding the number of retirements and the average amount of the awards, I notice they were less than expected. I thought civil servants retired at 65 years of age and that you base your estimate on definite information which is available to you?—Civil Servants must retire at 65 years of age, but they can retire voluntarily from 60 years of age onwards and will receive full pension if they have completed 40 years pensionable service. The reason, in recent years, why there is a particular element of unpredictability is that there have been salary increases every so often. If a man who contemplates retiring at 60 years of age thinks that, by waiting for another year, he will participate in a 12 per cent. increase in salary, naturally enough he may decide to stay on.

23. Deputy Lalor.—I notice the estimate for subheads A. and B. fell short of what was required by about £150,000. What is the position this year? Have you increased the estimates again or do they remain static?— They have to increase every year for the simple reason that the number of pensioners and the general level of salaries are going up, so naturally enough there are increases.

Is this a particular trend? Did it only apply during that particular year or is it a continuous trend?—There is a continuing upward trend. The unpredictability always exists but the degree of it varies.

24. Chairman.—There is something which intrigues me. Additional provision was made for redundancy which did not materialise. What are these redundancies and where are they expected to occur?—I think they arose in relation to Social Welfare officers. There was a re-organisation scheme which resulted in a number of redundancies. It took longer than was expected to implement the scheme and the redundancies did not arise until the following financial year.

25. Deputy Clinton.—On subhead F.— Injury Grants—as a matter of interest, in what Department of the Civil Service do we have most injury claims, or how do they come about?—I understand that the injuries occur mostly on outdoor employment, that is amongst Forestry workers, Posts and Telegraphs workers and Office of Public Works employees.

26. Chairman.—On Item 4 in the Appropriations in Aid—Pension liability in respect of officers on loan—how many officers on loan would that represent?—I am sorry I have not got the figure with me.

27. Deputy Booth.—On Item 1 in the Appropriations in Aid—Repayment by the British Government—how has this estimate varied by over £3,000? Was it because certain members of the R.I.C. died? Did an unexpected number die?—There is that factor, but there is also the fact that some of these payments vary by reference to the cost of living figure. The estimate of how much it will increase in a particular period depends on how much the cost of living will rise in that period and on how many pensioners die. It looks as if we were unduly pessimistic that year.

Deputy Clinton.—The shock is coming next year.

VOTE 15—SECRET SERVICE.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker called.

No question.

VOTE 16—EXPENSES UNDER THE ELECTORAL ACT AND THE JURIES ACT.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.

28. Chairman.—This Vote will disappear after this year. The necessary expenditure will, in future, be provided on the Vote for Local Government.

VOTE 17—AGRICULTURAL GRANTS.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker called.

No question.

VOTE 18—LAW CHARGES.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.

29. Chairman.—The Note on page 37 reads: “The sum of £19, portion of costs awarded against a defaulting executor in legal proceedings taken on behalf of the Attorney General in consequence of a complaint by the Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests, proved to be irrecoverable and was written off”. Could we have any further information in regard to these costs?—I am afraid I have not, unless Mr. Martin, who is here in the background, would be able to enlighten you.

Chairman.—Maybe Mr. Martin, at a later stage, might be able to say something on it.

VOTE 19—MISCELLANEOUS EXPENSES.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker called.

No question.

VOTE 56—INCREASES IN PENSIONS.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.

30. Chairman.—Paragraph 81 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Pensioners who retired from the Public Service, without the benefit of the pay revision of 1 November 1955, have had their pensions increased to the level of the pensions awarded to their colleagues who retired with the benefit of this pay revision. £460,000 was provided, in advance of legislation, for the payment of the increases which were paid from 1 August 1962. A Bill providing for these increases has been introduced in Dáil Éireann.”

Mr. Suttle.—There is a Bill at present before the Dáil covering a number of increases in pensions that have been granted since, I think, August, 1962. This is just a note to let the Committee know that that is the position—that these payments have been made since August, 1962, without full legal authority pending the passing of the present Bill.

Mr. Whitaker.—The Bill was passed by the Dáil yesterday, legitimising us just in time.

Chairman.—I suppose the Seanad will not hold it up?—I do not think they can.

VOTE 57—REPAYMENTS TO CONTINGENCY FUND.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker called.

31. Mr. Suttle.—The details of the Contingency Fund Account are to be found on page 164.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 28—CHARITABLE DONATIONS AND BEQUESTS.

Mr. J. S. Martin called and examined.

32. Chairman.—Can you give us any information in relation to the Note on Vote 18, concerning a sum of £19, which reads as follows: “The sum of £19, portion of costs awarded against a defaulting executor in legal proceedings taken on behalf of the Attorney General in consequence of a complaint by the Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests, proved to be irrecoverable and was written off.” What is the position?—I cannot speak with any degree of certainty on this point but I think it was a case where the Commissioners received a report that a charitable bequest had not been paid. There was a provision in the old Acts governing cases under which they could report the circumstances to the Attorney General for whatever action he thought fit. As far as I can recall, the proceedings referred to were against some executor for non-payment of a charitable bequest. If the Committee so desire I can get more specific information. Normally, we do not know what happens once we report it to the Attorney General.

Chairman.—That is an explanation anyway.

Deputy Booth.—If the case is of the nature which it appears to be, it is only to be expected that the law costs position would be like that.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 23—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR JUSTICE.

Mr. P. Berry called and examined.

33. Chairman.—Subhead E. refers to Commissions and Special Inquiries. Is this the first year for this expenditure?—Yes.

It is new? In other Votes where there is expenditure on commissions, we get information as to the total expenditure, inclusive of staff, borne on the Vote. Could we have some information in that respect in regard to this one? Does the expenditure relate only to the Ground Rents Commission?—Three commissions—the Ground Rents Commission, the Bankruptcy Commission and the Committee of Inquiry into Court Practices and Procedures. Some of the members of these commissions are rural members. There was a question of travelling expenses and expenses for meals where they sit late at night.

Could we have some details of each of these commissions?—I do not think we have split down any details on them.

Could you furnish us with a note on it?— Certainly.*

34. Deputy Lalor.—With regard to subhead F.—Appropriations in Aid—I see it was anticipated that there would be a refund of payments, under subhead D. 1 (2), but that nothing was realised. Why does this arise?— There was no publication of the texts during the year. We had provided that a certain sum of money would be given to the Incorporated Council of Law Reporting for Ireland for the publication of textbooks and, in return, that they would give us whatever was got for the sales. In fact no textbook was published and so there was no payment.

There was a saving effected under subhead D (1) as a result of books not being published? —Yes.

35. Chairman.—In regard to fees paid to your Department, fees for various services, have they been revised recently in accordance with rises which are occurring in other lines? —Fees for travel documents, for instance, are fixed at 30/-. That is the same price as a passport and we are under an international obligation not to increase fees for travel documents to stateless persons above what is charged to nationals.

36. What about film censorship fees?— The 1923 Act provides that the fees shall not be more than the expenses of the Office. We cannot make a profit; we do not make a loss. There has been an increase in the footage of films submitted in the last few years and in consequence we shall have to have new fees arranged. The present rate is a ½d. per foot.

VOTE 24—GARDA SÍOCHÁNA.

Mr. P. Berry further examined.

37. Chairman.—On subhead C.—Subsistence Allowances—you will remember that we commented on previous occasions in regard to subsistence allowances paid to officers while they were in their own homes. The Committee recommended that that be changed. Has that been done?—I think I explained that in order to bring about the new arrangement we should first consult the Representative Bodies of the Garda Síochána in accordance with the terms of the Garda conciliation and arbitration scheme. We have done that, got agreement and an order is in preparation as part of a general consolidation order on allowances.

38. On subhead F.—Furniture, Bedding, etc.—I notice that items of furniture ordered were not delivered during the year. Is anybody to blame for that?—No. There was no particular significance in it. There is always a time lag between the ordering of wardrobes, tables and chairs and their delivery.

39. In regard to No. 1 of Appropriations in Aid—Repayment of Sums Advanced to Officers and Inspectors under subhead H.— would there be much outstanding at the end of the year?—The balance outstanding on 1st April, 1962 was £19,699; advances made in the year were £12,569 and repayments, £10,629. That leaves an outstanding balance of over £21,000. The officers are required to provide themselves with cars for use on duty and to enable them to do so interest-free grants are made on a particular basis, so much for a new car and so much for a secondhand car. £450 is the allowance for a new car repayable in four years and £350 to a chief superintendent and £200 to a superintendent repayable in three years. There is always a sum of £20,000 floating.

Deputy Cunningham.—Are these cars the private property of the officers concerned?— Yes. We advance the money so that the officer may have the car he is required to have on duty.

Is he allowed for petrol, etc.?—Yes, at the usual fixed rates.

What would happen if an officer resigned from the service?—If he resigned, we would recoup from the gratuity due to him.

40. Deputy P. Hogan (South Tipperary).— Is there any other Department where interest-free loans operate?

Mr. Suttle.—Yes. In the Department of Defence, officers on FCA duty around the country who must have a car, where normal military transport is not available, receive advances in circumstances similar to those mentioned by Mr. Berry. Also in the Department of Social Welfare they have a scheme of advances in regard to cars for social welfare officers. I think those are the only Departments concerned.

Deputy Lalor.—Are there any defaulters or any difficulties?—No.

There is about £20,000 outstanding all the time?—Yes.

41.—Chairman.—On No. 2 of the Appropriations in Aid—Payments for Services rendered by the Garda Síochána—have there been any revised charges for these services? —They go up automatically, I am told, with the increases in pay.

42. Deputy Booth.—In regard to forfeited and unclaimed property in No. 4 of the Appropriations in Aid, is that property forfeited at the customs?—Forfeited by order of the courts.

And what sort of material is involved? Is it firearms and so on?—It might be motor cars, for instance, or jewellery. We frequently have burglars caught after housebreakings with property the owners of which are not identified.

VOTE 25—PRISONS.

Mr. P. Berry further examined.

43. Chairman.—On subhead B.—Victualling—I notice your excess is very little, despite the fact that you had more prisoners. Were the contract prices less than you estimated?—It was very good estimation.

44. In regard to subhead D.—Medicines, etc.—the explanation given is that the excess is due to an increase in the cost of medical supplies and the increase in the number of prisoners. How much of the increase is due to medical supplies? Do you buy on a contract basis?—Yes. The tendency nowadays seems to be always to order more expensive medicine than some years ago. Pills nowadays cost shillings where some years ago they cost ninepence.

45. Deputy Lalor.—In connection with subhead H.—Maintenance of Buildings and Equipment—is the bulk of that £22,000 spent?—In actual fact there was far less than anticipated spent.

Is there any reason why that much less was spent—I notice there was less progress than anticipated made? Which institution makes the most demands from the point of view of maintenance?—From year to year, Mountjoy Prison does because it is by far the largest of our institutions, but for some years past we have earmarked sums for renovations at Portlaoise. We have recruited staff and we have had one major reconstruction job. This is a hardy annual, going on year after year, but I am glad to tell the Committee that the work is in progress at the moment, being tackled, of course, with the assistance of the Office of Public Works under the Prison Contract.

I thought a lot of the work was done by the prison staff and the prisoners?—Yes, but this is a job outside their capabilities.

Chairman.—The explanation is more or less the same as that given last year. Does it mean the building and reconstruction programme provided for in 1961-62 was not fully executed even in this year?—Some of it could not be executed. Apart from our difficulties in getting technical assistance from the Office of Public Works, we have also had difficulty in recruiting artisan staffs. During that year, as mentioned in the explanatory note about savings being due to inability to fill vacancies, we had vacancies for some eight tradesmen, plumbers, carpenters and so on. We just could not recruit them.

Deputy Clinton.—Is it because they are getting more attractive conditions from building contractors?—It appears so, at the moment. Sometimes, conditions outside are more attractive. Sometimes we recruit staff and they leave us.

Chairman.—You have not abandoned any projected scheme?—No.

46. Deputy Lalor.—Are there expansions going on in St. Patrick’s Institution?—We had constructional expansion within the institution. As the Minister has said in a policy statement, St. Patrick’s is not satisfactory as an institution for juveniles. We have been for some considerable time thinking of going to the outskirts of Dublin. Nine-tenths of the juveniles in the institution come from the city of Dublin.

47. Chairman.—On Subhead K.—Maintenance of Prisoners confined in District Mental Hospitals—how many prisoners are involved in this expenditure?—I have a statement as to the general position but I do not have figures beside me as to exact numbers. Do you wish me to make a statement as to the general position?

I was just interested in how many prisoners were involved in this expenditure?—I regret I have not got the figures.

48. Deputy P. Hogan (South Tipperary).— Could we have the figures for Dundrum? —I can let you have particulars if you wish. I shall read you this general statement which I have. The pre-1960 statutes provided that prisoners found insane while on remand, while awaiting trial, or while serving sentences, must be sent to a mental hospital for the district in which the prison is situated: prisoners found unfit to plead could be sent to the district mental hospital or to the Central Mental Hospital at Dundrum. Now, under the Criminal Justice Act, 1960, they can be sent to any mental hospital or transferred from one institution to another. Prisoners found guilty but insane may be detained in any place directed by the Minister for Justice and the Minister refers each case to the Inspector of Mental Hospitals for advice as to what institution the prisoner should be transferred to and acts on the recommendation given.

There is no special prison or any particular institution for these cases?—We are guided by the Inspector of Mental Hospitals.

Chairman.—Perhaps you might, at your convenience, let us have the number of prisoners, broken down as suggested?—I certainly shall.

Deputy Booth.—Could you elaborate a little in your note, as to how many long-term prisoners there are in these mental institutions and how many are purely short-term, psychiatric patients?*

Deputy Clinton.—It might also be interesting to know in what institutions they are.

Chairman.—Mr. Berry will make all that information available to us.

Deputy Clinton.—I should like to have the figure broken down—the number in each institution.

Chairman.—Mr. Berry will make that information available, as well as the particulars requested by Deputy Booth.

49. Deputy Booth.—In connection with the Appropriations in Aid on this Vote, No. 1 is linked, to a certain extent, with subhead N. It seems worthy of note that the manufacturing section is apparently running out of work and that, at the same time, receipts from the farm show a decrease? Is there an explanation for that, in view of the fact that there are more prisoners involved? Is it more difficult to find sufficient work for them to do?—It is difficult always to find remunerative work. I mentioned earlier on the difficulty of finding artisan staff. There is a shortage of tailors, for instance. We have been embarking on a scheme which might be described as one directed to the rehabilitation of prisoners. We have started psychiatric units in Mountjoy and also, a corrective training unit which are taking from our remunerative workers who are being put to therapeutic work. All the time, when one takes away from the labour force, there is a diminution of profits.

It would be correct, then, to say there is a trend towards therapeutic work rather than towards productive work?—Definitely.

50. Deputy Clinton.—What is the extent of the farm?—There is a 30-acre farm attached to Portlaoise. That is deemed to be fairly extensive.

Deputy Booth.—The produce from that farm appears to me to be extraordinarily low—from 30 acres you have receipts of approximately £1,400, including the produce used in the prison. Is that to be regarded as an economic proposition, or is there therapeutic work there as well?—Partly. The soil there, we have been given to understand, is tired. It has been worked intensively for quite a long time.

Deputy Clinton.—I do not agree with Deputy Booth’s estimate of the output on the farm. In my estimation, the gross output is reasonably good.

Deputy Booth.—I am prepared to accept Deputy Clinton’s estimate.

VOTE 26—COURTS OF JUSTICE.

Mr. P. Berry further examined.

51. Chairman.—In regard to the Appropriations in Aid, Items Nos. 4 and 5—Fees in connection with grant and renewal of publicans’ licences and Fees in connection with the execution of court orders and Land Commission warrants—are these fees not paid by way of stamps? You mention them as fees?—These are cash receipts from revenue. Item No.4 is made up of fees in connection with the grant and renewal of publicans’ licences (Licensing (Ireland) Acts 1833, section 10, and 1874, section 15, and the Revenue Act, 1898, section 16). The fee is a 2/6 filing charge and was generally paid to the Clerk of the Crown and Peace. It is now collected by the Revenue Commissioners with the intoxicating liquor licences and paid over annually to the Courts of Justice Vote. Item No. 5 represents fees received by County Registrars for the duties of Sheriff in connection with the execution of decrees and Land Commission warrants.

52. Deputy P. Hogan (South Tipperary).— What is Item No. 3?—These are receipts from fees fixed by the Lord Lieutenant by Order in Council in 1888 in connection with local bankruptcy proceedings under the Local Bankruptcy (Ireland) Act, 1888. All fees are paid by stamps except those on office copies “which shall be taken in money and shall be accounted for by the local registrar in such a manner as the treasury shall direct”. The quotation is taken from a Treasury letter of 1889 in the matter. The fee per copy is 2½d. and the only office affected is Cork, where we have an official assignee.

53. On Item No. 2—Surrender of receipts obtained by County Registrars under No. 12 of 1923 (sec. 12)—will that go under Local Government in future?—Yes, in future, it will.

Deputy Lalor.—Has the County Registrar not something to do with it?

Chairman.—In future the compilation of registers will be the duty of the local authorities whereas registration will still fall under the ambit of the county registrar.

Deputy P. Hogan (South Tipperary).—It goes to the Appeals Court.

Chairman.—He supervises it in the final instance. In regard to Extra Remuneration I see an officer received £150 for performing higher duties. What was the nature of the higher duties?—This was a Higher Executive Officer who was Assistant Chief Clerk in the Metropolitan District Court. He had special duties and he has been given this gratuity for those duties. He acted since then as clerk to the Rules Committee. There was a backlog of rules to be made and quite a considerable amount of work was involved.

Will that allowance continue?—It will not.

Is the work complete?—The poor man is dead.

VOTE 27—LAND REGISTRY AND REGISTRY OF DEEDS.

Mr. P. Berry further examined.

54. Chairman.—Under Extra Remuneration, what exactly is the Clearance Premium Scheme?—We are rather proud of this.

I am glad I raised the matter, so. Please explain it.—Some years ago there was quite a considerable amount of arrears in the mapping branch of the Land Registry. We were unable to deal with the arrears in the normal way by overtime and we devised what was called an Arrears Clearance Premium Scheme. This scheme was introduced on the 1st May, 1962, and concluded on the 15th April, 1963. It was a system of payments to the staff of the Branch for eliminating stated quantities of the arrears of each category of work each month. The maximum premium (30 per cent. of salary) would be earned by the whole Branch each month in which arrears of Dealings were reduced by 95, Copy Maps by 75, Searches by 60, Labourers’ Act cases by 345 and Land Commission cases by 170 provided that other aspects of the Branch’s work were kept up to date. That is, we required them to do their normal work and provided they had a certain quantity of the arrears done the staff could benefit by earning a premium amounting to a maximum of 30 per cent. of the month’s salary. Of course, when some sections achieved say, the full target clearance and other sections did less, the overall extra earnings of the Branch would be something less than the maximum. Taking one month with another the staff did in fact earn the maximum premium of 30 per cent. over the whole of the period during which the scheme operated. The scheme was a complete success because we wiped out all our arrears.

Deputy Lalor.—Was this work done during overtime?—The staff concerned stepped up the tempo during the day and they stayed on after work.

Deputy Booth.—The actual amount of money spent on it appears to be very small. There must have been some travelling expenses and other expenses. Can you give us any idea of the actual cost of the Scheme?—The cost was £5,400 over the stated period. It comes in under Subhead A.

Chairman.—I assume you intend to continue this scheme and not allow a backlog of work to develop again?—We have all the arrears cleared.

It will not happen again?—We hope not.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 49—EXTERNAL AFFAIRS.

Mr. H. J. McCann called and examined.

55. Deputy Clinton.—What type of staff is it difficult to obtain?—Most of our recruitment in the category where there are vacancies which have an effect on the shortfall on this Vote is in the diplomatic range, beginning with Third Secretary. The General Service had some difficulty about Administrative Officers. At the time, the Department of Finance improved their conditions with a view to attracting talent. We tried to have the same conditions for our Third Secretaries because, up to then, they had been on the same level. We had rather lengthy negotiations with the Department of Finance in which they were not prepared to yield. That is why, in this particular year, there was a relatively large number of vacancies. In the end, we had to try to proceed with the earlier conditions.

Has that changed since then?—We had a competition at the end of last year. Our experience was not good. We looked for a minimum of five. We needed ten. Three were qualified. It suggests that the position has deteriorated but it would not be right to come to a conclusion on the basis of one experience. We have another competition in the machine at the moment. If the outcome is not satisfactory, we may have to go back to the Department of Finance to try to get the conditions equalised with the Administrative Grade with which they are normally comparable.

56. Chairman.—A peculiar thing strikes me in regard to subhead C.—Repatriation and Maintenance of destitute Irish Persons abroad. In the notes, as well, item No. 3 reads: “Claims amounting to £97 for refund of expenditure on repatriation were abandoned as irrecoverable”. The charge in the subhead is £74 while £97 is mentioned in the note?— At one time, there was a tendency sometimes to charge to the subhead at an earlier stage before writing off, when it seemed unlikely that there would be a repayment. The difference between the £74 and £97 was made up by an item which had earlier been charged to the subhead in anticipation of being written off later. Our present practice is to charge all the items to suspense and when they are written off, to charge them to the subhead.

57. Deputy Booth.—The last note reads: “Expenditure amounting to £30, incurred in respect of four lectures held in Iveagh House in 1949 and 1950, has been written off”. Can you give us any information about these lectures?—They were four lectures given under the auspices of the Catholic Association for International Relations and The International Affairs Association. They were delivered by the Swiss Chargé d’Affaires, the Minister for External Affairs of the day, the Secretary-General of OEEC and the Deputy Secretary-General of the Council of Europe. They were delivered to the members of the Associations. Our ballroom was made available on condition that they would be responsible for the cost of lighting, heating and labour. When they were presented with the charges, they were rather surprised at their extent and they resisted payment. The bodies concerned had very little resources. I understand that the people of the day who were concerned felt that, as it was desirable to give encouragement to the Associations and to increase interest in international affairs, they would not press too hard. One of the Associations subsequently became defunct.

Was it kept alive from 1950 or did it go into cold storage?—It was sporadically alive. There was not much pressure about it. There was an exchange of correspondence with the Office of Public Works as to what these costs were.

Was some amount recovered? Does £30 represent the balance?—No. That was the total net cost in the end.

So that not only did the Associations query the amount but they refused to pay it?—That is not quite true. At one stage they thought they should pay only what they thought would be appropriate in a normal hotel and suggested 5 guineas per lecture. In the end, the Department decided not to pursue the matter. They were probably motivated by the opinion that in general it is desirable to encourage this type of activity although, since then, we do not give our ballroom for non-official use except to the National University for the presentation of Honorary Degrees, which has been a longstanding custom.

VOTE 50—INTERNATIONAL CO-OPERATION.

Mr. H. J. McCann further examined.

58. Chairman.—Paragraph 78 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads as follows:

“Subhead C.10.—Repayable Advance to the United Nations.

78. Provision was made by means of a supplementary estimate to enable a subscription of $300,000 to be made to the United Nations Bond issue. The Bonds, which have been registered in the name of the Minister for Finance, bear interest at 2 per cent. per annum and are repayable in twenty-five annual instalments by the United Nations. As noted in the account, the first instalment ($12,833.33) was received during the year and has been brought to credit as an exchequer extra receipt.”

Mr. Suttle.—This advance is being repaid over a period of 25 years and the first instalment was received during the year. It is being repaid on a type of annuity basis but the first instalment is not a full annuity payment because only seven months’ interest is included. In future, it will be a full annuity covering principal and 12 months’ interest in each case.

59. Deputy Booth.—Under the general heading of subhead C.—United Nations—we can take it from this, then, that all our liabilities to the United Nations have been paid in full?—Yes. We have honoured our obligations.

Nothing is outstanding?—No.

Are these calculated on a population basis?—The Council of Europe tends to be on a population basis but the United Nations tends to be more on the national incomes concerned. In the case of certain contributions, for example, in connection with the Congo, in that particular year they made a special reduction of 80 per cent. in respect of countries whose normal scale of contribution ranged between 0-04 per cent. and 0-25 per cent. We got a reduction of 80 per cent. on our assessment because we were in that field. That applied in that particular year.

60. Deputy Cunningham.—Subhead E. refers to Appropriations in Aid and deals with recovery of expenditure on OECD productivity projects. What are these projects?— The projects concerned are rather esoteric. The types of project in which groups from this country participated include the Exploration of New Markets by Small and Medium-sized Firms, the Standardisation of Testing Procedures for Fertiliser Distributors and the Integration of Technical Experimentation and Production Economics in Agriculture.

There were a number of highly technical projects, the results of which were made available to the organisations interested. In many cases we recover a certain amount.

The witness withdrew.

The Committee adjourned.

* Denotes projects in respect of which expenditure is also borne on the relative votes.

* See Appendix IV.

** See Appendix V.

* See Appendix VII.

* See Appendix VI.