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MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA(Minutes of Evidence)Déardaoin, 31 Eanáir, 1963.Thursday, 31st January, 1963.The Committee sat at 11 a.m.
DEPUTY JONES in the chair. Mr. E. F. Suttle (Secretary & Director of Audit) and Miss M. Bhreathnach (An Roinn Airgeadais) called and examined.GENERAL REPORT.Mr. T. K. Whitaker called and examined.2. Chairman.—I am sure all members are familiar with the procedure of this Committee. Mr. Whitaker has come here this morning to assist us. The General Report consists of paragraphs 1 to 7. We shall go through the paragraphs and if anybody has any question to raise, he can do so at that stage. Have you any comment to make, Mr. Suttle, on these paragraphs? Mr. Suttle.—No. Chairman.—Paragraphs 1 to 5, inclusive, of the Report of the Comptrollor and Auditor General read as follows: “Outturn of the Year (Adjusted to the nearest £) 1. The audited accounts are summarised on page XXXV. The amount to be surrendered as shown in the summary is £3,092,750 arrived at as follows:—
This represents 2.1 per cent. of the supply grants as compared with 3.2 per cent. in the previous year. The principal savings were:—
In no case has the provision made by Dáil Éireann been exceeded and no excess vote is, therefore, necessary. Exchequer Extra Receipts 2. Extra receipts payable to the Exchequer as recorded in the appropriation accounts amounted to £964,289. Surrender of Balances on 1960-61 Votes 3. The balances due to be surrendered out of votes for the public services for 1960-61 amounted to £4,268,634. I hereby certify that these balances have been duly surrendered. Stock and Store Accounts 4. The stock and store accounts of the Departments have been examined. The results are satisfactory, with some exceptions which are referred to in the paragraphs relating to the votes of the Departments concerned. National Development Fund (Winding up) Account 5. As indicated in paragraph 6 of the previous report the balance in the Winding up Account at 31st March 1961 was £931,819 (including £8,580 in the hands of agent Departments). Issues to agent Departments in the year amounted to £150,675, viz.:—
The statements appended to the accounts of the relevant votes indicate the expenditure incurred on the various projects during the year under review.” 3. Chairman.—In regard to paragraph 5, Mr. Whitaker, in the minute of the Minute of Finance on our last report, on the question of the National Development Fund, you say that the Act envisages that the Fund would be wound up on 31st March, 1957, and since that, no further liabilities would be incurred. I notice that some projects appear to have commenced after that date, for instance, Shannon flooding, 1958-59. Can you tell us how this came about?—By liabilities, is understood commitments that had been already entered into. There is a note which I have here in last year’s Appendix to the Minister’s Minute which indicates that the flooding experience in 1954-55 was the basis of the commitment in regard to Shannon flooding. Are we to take it that the liabilities of the Fund after 31st March, 1957, are to be interpreted as commitments that were entered into after that date or projects to be completed after that date?— The projects might be completed after that date but the general intention was that no new commitments should be undertaken after 31st March, 1957. If there had been a commitment entered into, even in principle, it would have been thought proper to defray expenditure on it, even if it only commenced after 31st March, 1957. The Committee referred to the question of financing various things such as roads, water supplies, sewerage, various agricultural schemes and harbour works from two sources, the Votes for which have been passed by the Dáil and grants issued by your Department. Would you care to comment on that?—In the Minister’s Minute, we have said in effect that, since such a fund was set up to undertake various kinds of work and to supplement what might normally be voted, it was better on the whole to wind up the Fund and leave its existing commitments to be discharged out of the balance in the Fund rather than to transfer them now to Votes. But I should not like to express any disagreement with the general view that it is better normally to charge these things to Votes. 4. Chairman.—Since there are no other questions, we shall pass on. Paragraphs 6 and 7 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, which are for information only, read as follows: “6. The expenditure on projects since the establishment of the Fund to 31 March 1962 was as follows:—
Expenditure on projects carried out by local authorities is examined by Local Government auditors whose certificates are made available to me. In the case of grants issued to the Inland Fisheries Trust, An Bord Iascaigh Mhara and An Óige, I have accepted their auditors’ certificates as evidence of the expenditure incurred therefrom. The balance in the Winding up Account at 31 March, 1962, was £780,875 (including £8,311 in the hands of agent Departments). 7.—Statement of Receipts into and Issues out of the Central Fund for the Year ended 31 March 1962
5. Deputy Booth.—Is the Committee or the Minister satisfied that the form of contract does in fact ensure that all contracts are now legally enforceable? Ther was a certain amount of doubt about that?—There is a comment on that, I think, in paragraph 7 of the Minute of the Minister. The comment is that the procedure is designed to ensure that all contracts placed are legally enforceable. We had in the past a number of cases where they have been found not to be legally enforceable and where ex gratia payments have had to be made or where amendments had to be allowed. I think the previous evidence given to us was that something fairly drastic was to be done with the drafting or the form of those contracts generally?—I think the reason we used the expression “The Minister is advised …” is that naturally we are very much in the hands of the legal experts in this field. We cannot really say as ordinary lay people that we are completely satisfied but we got the best advice available. Deputy Booth.—We can only judge by experience as we go on. VOTE 1—PRESIDENT’S ESTABLISHMENT.Mr. T. K. Whitaker called.No question. VOTE 2—HOUSES OF THE OIREACHTAS.Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.6. Chairman.—Might I ask, Mr. Whitaker, how many former members benefit under subhead I.?—I am sorry I have not got the precise number here. You will let us know at a later stage? —Certainly.* VOTE 3—DEPARTMENT OF THE TAOISEACH.Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.7. Deputy Booth.—What were the two posts which are referred to in the notes for which no provision was made in the Estimate?—These were two posts in the Government Information Bureau. One was a Senior Assistant created in connection with television work. The other was an executive officer. Were they both in relation to television and radio or just one?—I would say one for certain. 8. Chairman.—In regard to subhead C., has An Coimisiún um Athbheochan na Gaeilge reported yet?—It has presented two interim reports which have not yet been published. They had to do with Irish in television and textbooks for secondary schools in Irish. Its main report is at the moment near completion. It is expected to be presented in the course of this year. Has the Commission actually completed its work?—Only drafting is going on. They are now drafting their final report. 9. Deputy Cunningham.—My translation of the note on subhead C. is that less than granted was expended because of the fact that only a small number of members live near Dublin and therefore not so much money was expended in travelling and subsistence. Would the opposite not be the case if a large number were living away from Dublin?—The expenditure was less because, while this drafting process was going on, a drafting committee was at work and the main committee had not to be brought together so often from remote parts and therefore travelling expenditure was less than expected. Deputy Booth.—The drafting committee was composed more of the Dublin people?—Yes. 10. Deputy P. J. Burke.—In regard to subhead D., what is the position in respect of the Commission on Itinerancy? —That Commission has met quite often, about 37 times, and the preparation of a report is now in hands. The Commission expect to complete the report later this year. VOTE 4—CENTRAL STATISTICS OFFICE.Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.11. Deputy Cunningham.—In regard to the saving on subhead A., that seems a large sum. What is the reason for that? —I can enlarge a bit on the explanation given there. The first point referred to there is that it is chiefly due to vacancies. These are vacancies particularly for the post of Statistician. It has been very hard to recruit Statisticians. Although a competition was held and attractive terms were advertised, in 1962, no candidate qualified in the competition and the vacancy remains unfilled. There were also vacancies in lower grades, clerical, clerk-typist and card-puncher. But the more important saving was due to the second point mentioned—the enumeration in connection with the Census of Population, 1961, being completed in less time than expected. There were about 250 civilian enumerators employed in connection with the Census in areas where the Gardaí were unable to take on the work. These enumerators were paid £1 a day plus a bonus which was awarded for early completion of the work. This bonus proved to be highly successful, because the work was completed in about three and a half weeks on average as compared with the original estimate of ten weeks. For bonus purposes, five weeks was used as the target time. 12. Chairman.—When is the Census of Population expected to be available?— What has been published so far is merely the preliminary result of the count. The first volume, which will deal with population by area and district in the country, is very near completion now. That will contain the definitive figures of population by areas. The remaining volumes will depend on the processing of the punched cards which have been prepared for each individual in the country and punched according to a certain code of numbers. They will have to be processed through machines and counted. The volume which will deal with ages of the population is hoped to be ready in mid-1963. I could not venture yet an estimate of when the other results will be available in textual form. 13. Deputy Treacy.—In regard to subhead C.—Collection of Statistics—I should like an explanation of the disparity between the figures for 1960-61 and those for 1961-62. What statistics will suffer as a result?—I do not think there will be any significant reduction in the quantity or deterioration in the quality of statistics. Most of the difference between expenditure and grant is due to vacancies. I may, however, have misunderstood the Deputy’s question. Is he referring to the difference between the figures for last year and this year? Yes?—I am sorry. I thought it was the difference between the expenditure and grant. The figure for last year was £37,953 and it is now gone down to one-tenth of that. The main reason for that is that the cost of the full agricultural census enumeration conducted in 1960 has not to be met. However, all the normal statistical work of the Office proceeds. Apart from the taking of the census, is there other important statistical research work?—There has been no dropping of any important statistical work. 14. Chairman.—In regard to subhead D.—Appropriations in Aid—the note there, in respect of Extra Remuneration, refers to an Assistant Principal Officer receiving an allowance for special duties. What was the nature of those special duties?—He had specially responsible work to do in heading the Census operation. Deputy Cunningham.—That note also refers to taskwork. What does that mean? It sounds like home-work to me?—I understand it is very like piece-work. It is laborious routine work which the officers take home with them to do. Deputy Booth.—This is payment on a piecework basis, payment by result and not on a time basis?—Yes, on the quantity of work done. Deputy Treacy.—What is the annual value of this taskwork?—Perhaps I could give that detail in a note of what the taskwork consists of.* Chairman.—Yes. VOTE 6—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE.Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.15. Chairman.—On subhead C.—Remuneration of Banks for the Management of Government Stocks etc.—on what basis are banks remunerated under this subhead?—They have a fixed statutory fee of £300 per £1,000,000 of stock registered in their books. This fee has existed for quite a long time now, since before this century commenced. Deputy Booth.—That is on the basis of new registrations?—It is on the basis of the amount of stock actually outstanding in the register of the bank. Taken as at the end of the year?—Yes. It does not take into account the movement of stock in and out of the books?— No. The work connected with that is part of the management work for which they are being remunerated by this provision. 16. Chairman.—On subhead E.—Civil Service Arbitration Board Fees and Incidental Expenses—are there many cases awaiting hearing at the moment?— I think the position about arrears of cases going to arbitration has been very much improved in recent times. By the end of September, 1962, all cases which had been lodged for arbitration by the middle of that month were cleared. Coming forward six months to 11th April last, all outstanding cases at that date were cleared. At present, four cases are awaiting hearing. The first of these was lodged in October, 1962. 17. Deputy Booth.—On subhead G.— Commission on Income Taxation, Travelling and Incidental Expenses—are there any further reports still to be furnished by this Commission?—They have completed their task. 18. Chairman.—On subhead H. — Appropriations in Aid—Item No. 1 refers to expenses of management of the Local Loans Fund. What function has the Department of Finance in relation to the Local Loans Fund?—First of all, we have to keep it in funds. We promote the legislation which authorises increased provision for the Local Loans Fund and advances from it, and as I say, we have to finance it. We also have to approve of the issues from it. VOTE 11—STATE LABORATORY.Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.19. Chairman.—On subhead A. — Salaries, Wages and Allowances—I notice that there are vacancies still unfilled. Are you finding difficulty in getting suitable staff?—I do not think the difficulty is as great here as it is in relation to mathematicians and statisticians because, in fact, it has been possible to increase the establishment of chemists by eight in the course of the year. It is just that on average during the year there were some vacancies. 20. On subhead D.—Appropriations in Aid—Item No. 1 refers to receipts from various analyses, examinations, tests, etc. The explanation given on subhead A. was that there were pay revisions during the year. Was there only increases in charges on subhead D.?—We have not changed the charges as yet. VOTE 12—CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION.Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.21. Deputy Cunningham.—On subhead A.2.—Examiners. etc.—what examinations were not held?—It was decided to abandon written examinations for recruiting telephonists and to recruit them instead by way of interview. I think there was also a written examination intended for tax clerks which, in fact, was not held during the year. 22. Chairman.—I see that, in the explanation regarding excess expenditure on subhead B. and C., there was an increase in the number of interview board competitions held. How did that arise?—One cause was the transfer of the competition for telephonists from a written test to an oral interview. Boards had to set up in provincial centres for that purpose. The main explanation—or at least an equally important explanation—is the increased expenditure on advertisements mentioned in the note. It was found desirable to advertise more conspicuously the vacancies available in the Civil Service, in all grades, including administrative and scientific grades. 23. Deputy Booth.—The note on page 29 refers to fees, amounting to £18,741, received during the year. Where do those fees appear in the accounts?—Fee stamps go into the Exchequer. They are extra receipts. They are exchequer extra receipts, not Appropriations-in-Aid?—Not Appropriations-in-Aid. Receipts from county boroughs and county councils are actually paid in cash. Is that right?—Yes, and are appropriated in aid of the Vote. One reason for this is that, at some time in the past, the two sources of fees combined would have been enough to offset completely expenditure on the Vote. It was necessary to preserve the Vote as such for the purposes of control and discussion. Which payments are made by stamps?— The stamps are the payments made by candidates for the right to compete. VOTE 13—AN CHOMHAIRLE EALAÍON.Mr. T. K. Whitaker called.No question. VOTE 14—SUPERANNUATION AND RETIRED ALLOWANCES.Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.24. Chairman.—In regard to subhead E.—Gratuities in respect of Unestablished officers—when the Supplementary Estimate was introduced it was said that it would be necessary to vote legislative authority for this. Has that been done?—I am not sure whether this is not a provision yet to be made by being included in the general Superannuation and Pensions Bill which is being introduced but has not yet been circulated. I should like to confirm that.* When the Supplementary Estimate was introduced, it was mentioned that it was proposed to obtain legislative authority for those payments?—I am not sure whether this particular change—the change in terms for unestablished officers—is being dealt with in the Pensions Increase Bill or is reserved to be dealt with in the general Superannuation and Pension Bill. VOTE 15—SECRET SERVICE.VOTE 16—EXPENSES UNDER THE ELECTORAL ACT AND THE JURIES ACT.VOTE 17—SUPPLEMENTARY AGRICULTURAL GRANTS.Mr. T. K. Whitaker called.No question. VOTE 18—LAW CHARGES.Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.25. Chairman.—On subhead E. — Defence of Public Servants—I think this has previously been asked but I shall ask it again. How many public servants have been involved in this expenditure and what type of duties do they perform?— In general, this provision is intended to cover the cost of defending personnel such as Gardaí, for doing something in the course of their duties which in fact, represents an excess of their functions, but a non-culpable excess which was in the public interest. It has happened, of course, that others besides Gardaí have been protected by this section. For example, if a libel action were taken against a civil servant who had done something in the course of his duty, the cost might be regarded as proper for reimbursement from this subhead. Deputy Cunningham.—I take it the majority of cases defended were successful?—There have been some cases where costs were awarded against the public servant. Deputy Treacy.—Other than Gardaí, what other categories of public servants would be involved?—In principle, it could apply to anybody. I recall that one person who was involved in this not so long ago was the Inspector and Scientific Adviser in Fisheries. He was defendant in a libel action and some part at least of the costs were met from this subhead. Deputy Cunningham.—I had in mind the revenue case where fines charged on the spot for smuggling offences were involved. I suppose that would come up next year?—In any case, that is against the State rather than against individual public servants. 26. Deputy Lalor.—Is the original Estimate in this case always £500 or do you anticipate the likely expenditure? You have a Supplementary Estimate for £1,200. Is that something that has to be put in as the cases develop?—It is very hard to predict the incidence of these cases and what we normally do is put in a substantial token provision and then supplement it, if necessary. This particular £1,200 was put in by Supplementary Estimate mainly to cover the expenses of the official assignee in bankruptcy in Cork who was joined in a civil action. VOTE 19—MISCELLANEOUS EXPENSES.Mr. T. K. Whitaker called and examined.27. Chairman.—In regard to subhead B.—Marsh’s Library—is that where you have undertaken to help in the reconstruction of this library?—Yes. Is that the complete undertaking?— No, we did not have a vote in 1962-63, but I think we shall have to put in something like £2,500 in next year’s Estimate to complete our undertaking to aid in the rehabilitation of the Library. 28. The note on subhead C.—Property Values—mentions that the post had become vacant. It is a wholetime position? —Yes. 29. Deputy Treacy.—On subhead D.— Bounties—could I have the amount paid in the case of triplets and centenarians in individual cases?—In this particular year, 1961-62, £9 was paid in respect of triplets and £70 to centenarians. Deputy Cunningham.—Are these payments made automatically or do the people concerned have to apply? Are the payments made by getting the knowledge by some other means?—I believe they have to bring this happy occurrence to notice. So that there could be occurrences of the kind and people would not bother their heads to let you know?—I think one would find on looking at the census reports that there are more cases of triplets than we pay for in this Vote. Deputy P. J. Burke.—What is the amount given in the case of triplets?— Three pounds Deputy Kenny.—Is it only a matter of applying for this?—Well, you have to have the triplets first. You could not apply in anticipation?— It is a matter of applying and producing the evidence. At £3, the £9 covers three instances of bounty for triplets. 30. Deputy P. J. Burke.—I suppose this bounty has been the same over the years? No increase over a long period?— It was Queen Victoria who started this munificent bounty. Deputy Treacy.—I take it it has not been increased for a considerable length of time?—The triplet bounty has remained where it was since Victorian times. Deputy Treacy.—It ought to increase. VOTE 56—CIVIL SERVICE REMUNERATION.Mr. T. K. Whitaker called.No question. CONTINGENCY FUND DEPOSIT ACCOUNT.Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.31. Deputy Booth.—I suppose we have nothing to say on the question of the Contingency Fund Deposit Account? It does not come under the heading of a Vote but it is on the Agenda of this meeting. Chairman.—No Vote is necessary. Mr. Suttle.—In previous years, the bounties for triplets were charged to the Contingency Fund and a Vote was taken each year to recoup the Fund the amount charged. Triplets were only one item. It covered other items also. The bounties for triplets were transferred to the Vote for Miscellaneous Expenses. In the year under review, as there were no other charges on the Fund no recoupment Vote was necessary. 32. Deputy Booth.—What other types of payments are envisaged in the maintenance of this Contingency Fund Account? Mr. Suttle.—Generally, it covers items requiring legislation or items requiring the sanction of the Dáil. If the Dáil were not in session, such an item would be charged to the Contingency Fund, pending the meeting of the Dáil to pass the necessary Votes. It is refunded then and the Fund is restored to the original figure of £20,000. VOTE 28—CHARITABLE DONATIONS AND BEQUESTS.Mr. J. S. Martin called and examined.33. Chairman.—The Charities Act, 1961, came into force in July, 1961. Has this Act affected your organisation?—Very much, so, Mr. Chairman. The Act confers extended jurisdiction on the Commissioners. It gave them several new duties, including the very important one of permitting charity trustees to invest their trust funds outside the range of authorised securities. That power has been availed of to a remarkable extent and applications are still coming in. The Commissioners have prepared a schedule of investments in which charity trustees may put up to 50 per cent. of their funds, provided not more than 10 per cent. or £5,000, whichever is the lesser, is placed in any one security. If the members of the Committee would care to see the schedule of investments, I have a copy that I could leave with you. These, of course, are Irish equities as you will observe. Chairman.—We will reproduce this schedule later as an appendix to our report.* 34. Deputy Booth.—Were these investments made in each case at the request of the charity concerned?—Yes, definitely. The selection of the investment was the selection of the trustees?—It is left to the discretion of the trustees, subject to the conditions set out. Subject to the final approval of the Commissioners?—No, the authority is contained in the document before you and charity trustees are given discretion to act on the investments set out there. They are not obliged to do so but if they do so, these are the investments they can make. This list is set out by the Commissioners?—Precisely, with the advice of our stockbrokers. The list is, of course, reviewed from time to time. 35. Chairman.—In their latest report, the Commissioners mention that the accounts for 1959 and 1960 were audited by Local Government auditors. Have the accounts for 1961 been audited yet?—The accounts are ready and we expect the auditor to come along one of these days. At the end of the financial year, we prepare a balance sheet which shows that during the year 1962 the total nominal value of our funds stood at £1,885,000 which represents an increase of approximately £35,000 during the year. Do you publish a certified copy of the charity accounts after audit? —The procedure is that we prepare a balance sheet, submit it to the Commissioners, who seal it and then send it to the Department of Local Government, who appoint an auditor to come along and audit the accounts. The sealed accounts have been furnished to the Department and no doubt we will have a Local Government auditor along within the next fortnight or so to commence his audit. The witness withdrew. VOTE 54—HEALTH.Mr. P. Ó Muireadhaigh called and examined.36. Chairman.—In regard to subhead G.—Grants to Health Authorities—what is the position regarding the audit of the accounts of the health authorities?— There is a very great improvement in the position compared to some years ago. All the accounts, up to and including 1959-60, have been audited except one out of 50. For the following year, that is, 1960-61, all but four of the 50 accounts have been audited. In respect of 1961-62, which ended on 31st March last, the number of accounts is reduced from 50 to 35 as a result of the Health Authorities Act, 1960. The audit of seven of the 35 accounts has been completed and three further accounts are with the auditors. 37. In regard to this table of expenditure by the health authorities which you have furnished to us* the figures for the corporations are not shown this time following the amalgamation in the four areas concerned. Has this resulted in economy in administration?—I cannot answer that at the moment. From what we hear it has resulted in a considerable improvement in the quality of the service provided for the people concerned. I shall try to get some information as to whether or not there has been a cash saving in administration. You might let us have that later at your convenience?—Yes.† 38. The health expenditure generally has increased by about 15 per cent. over the last two years, but the cost of general hospitals has gone up by about 20 per cent., from £5,000,000 to £6,000,000, in the same period. Is there any reason for this disproportionate increase in the case of hospitals?—In the hospital’s service the percentage increase in salaries has been higher than it has been in the services generally. The cost in relation to hospitals will be greater still in the following year because the approved capitation rate in the voluntary hospitals was increased last year to bring it a little nearer to the actual cost. That increase is not reflected in the account before the Committee at the moment. 39. In regard to tubercolosis expenditure, that has been dropping in some counties by as much as 50 per cent., but in the case of Cork there was an increase. Is there any particular reason for that? —I am not in a position to answer that at the moment. I shall look into it and send a note.* 40. In regard to homes for the chronic sick and mentally defective the increase on the average is about 10 to 15 per cent. except in my own constituency of Limerick. Why?—Additional beds have become available. It is possible that the explanation is that in the allocation of those beds, Limerick did not avail of them to the same extent as the other counties did. 41. The mother and child scheme seems to remain static. Does that mean the scheme stands still?—No. It means that from an early stage the scheme was widely availed of. There has been no material change in the number of people eligible for this service and no change in the fees payable under it. 42.—In regard to rehabilitation, I notice Cork are very far ahead of anybody else. Are they more generous?—Practically all that expenditure has been on the allowances for disabled persons. There has been very little on pure rehabilitation up to the moment. The expenditure in any area depends on the standards adopted by the health authority in determining whether a person is eligible. Deputy Carter.—Has Cork many centres?—There are two centres in Cork run by the Rehabilitation Institution. Those are the only two which come under this heading. In Cork there is also a cerebral palsy clinic and a day school for mentally handicapped children. But these come under the heading of hospitals and homes for the chronic sick, mental defectives, etc. I thought we were on rehabilitation services. I thought Cork might be ahead at the moment in the amount of training provided?—As I said, the element in respect of rehabilitation and training is only minor. The expenditure is almost entirely attributable to allowances to disabled persons. 43. Chairman.—What schemes are included under “other services”?—It is an omnibus heading covering all kinds of things—ambulance services, dental services, aural services, ophthalmic services, salaries of county medical officers, travelling expenses of county medical officers, superannuation payments. Anything that will not fit in readily under any other head is put in there. 44. In regard to the total expenditure of £19,000,000, is there any information in regard to drugs and dressings? Are they bought by the health authorities or through the Combined Purchasing Board? —Through the Combined Purchasing Scheme. The cost is shown under the various service headings as appropriate, mostly, of course, under the heading of hospital services and general medical services. You have not any specific figure for them?—I have not here. The cost of drugs and medicines has been going up in every area because of the emergence of new and more expensive drugs all the time. Would it be possible for us to get that element from you at some stage?—Certainly. We will get out the figures in regard to it.* 45. Deputy Lalor.—Does this statement include grants for the improvement of hospitals?—No, it is the ordinary revenue expenditure of the health authorities. That type of grant does not come under this Vote?—There is a subhead in the account, subhead H., which relates to contributions made from the Exchequer to health authorities for county homes works, a contribution to loan charges. There is no other element in respect of buildings in the Vote. 46. On subhead H., I think that, up to now, we have had an arrangement whereby the grants to the local authorities had worked out at a figure of £500 per bed?—That is so—not grants but maximum amounts which would be reckoned for recoupment of loan charges. Is there any question of that being changed?—It is being considered at the moment and it has not been possible to do so until recently. We have now got a few tenders which would enable us to know what current costs are. The present ceiling of £500 was fixed as far back as 1951, approximately. Is it possible that that ceiling may be doubled?—I would say there is a case for a considerable increase in the ceiling. 47. Deputy P. J. Burke.—On subhead I.—Grants to Voluntary Agencies—can you give us an example of the type of voluntary agency which would be eligible for grants?—Mainly in respect of services provided by voluntary agencies for under-privileged children, particularly illegitimate children. There are two boarding-out agencies which participate. One is The Catholic Protection and Rescue Society and the other is The Nursery Rescue and Protestant Childrens’ Aid Society. From the subhead we pay half the approved expenditure of those bodies. That is in respect of boarding-out agencies. The subhead also assists in the support of a number of institutions which provide services for illegitimate children resident in them. Over £7,000 of the expenditure goes to St. Patrick’s Infant Hospital in Blackrock, and £300 goes to The Cottage Home in Dún Laoghaire. They are the two which get the major part of the grants in respect of institutions. The reason I raise this matter is that it came to my notice that there was another charitable institution which might come into that category. It is a religious institution dealing with the type of people referred to?—Apart from what is paid out of the Vote to certain institutions, the health authorities support a number of those homes by paying a capitation rate in respect of mothers from their areas and children who are maintained in those homes. I know that, but the capitation rate in one place I know of is just not meeting the full expenditure incurred?—In such cases if it’s already on a capitation rate, I would prefer to see the capitation rate adjusted rather than change the pattern of assistance they are getting. 48. Deputy Booth.—On subhead K.— Dissemination of Information on Health and Health Services—we have commented rather adversely in the past on the under-expenditure on the dissemination of information. In this case the saving appears to arise mainly out of the decision not to proceed with the publication of a booklet on the health services. Could the Accounting Officer tell us is there any reason why that was not proceeded with this year. It had been anticipated? —The Minister explained that last year in the Dáil, in reply to a Parliamentary Question by Deputy Tully, I think. I referred to it last year when I was before the committee. The feeling was that having regard to the fact that the Select Committee on the Health Services had been set up and that changes might be expected, a booklet which would be issued at that time might be out of date very soon. I do not know whether Deputies and Senators in the past few days have received a copy of the booklet which the Minister prepared for the Select Committee—— Deputy Belton.—We got it on Wednesday morning. Mr. Ó Muireadhaigh. ——and which the Select Committee agreed could be released from being confidential. While that booklet would be useful to public representatives, it would not be of the same use to the public generally. Deputy P. J. Burke.—It would be very hard to bring out a concise booklet dealing with section 25 where the various health authorities have discretion to deal with the case of a person who was not entitled, say, to free treatment. After a long illness his case might be considered, due to family circumstances and other things which are taken into consideration. The health authorities all over the country have to deal with cases of that kind. It would be very hard to make hard and fast rules in any booklet pointing out to the person what he was entitled to or could be entitled to under the Act. Deputy Booth.—At the same time, the Select Committee is proceeding rather slowly and one of the matters which has been raised, time and again, is the ignorance of the public on their entitlement under the Health Acts. Since the Oireachtas has made provision for this expenditure, and in view of the circumstances, and the lack of final decision so far by the Select Committee on the Health Services, I would have hoped that this matter could be kept under review. Chairman.—I take it this is a matter we could more properly raise in the House. I do not think we should ask the accounting officer to comment?—I think it is relevant to say that the matter is covered, in a general way, in the Guide to the Social Services. There is also the fact—at least what I believe to be the fact—that each local authority has its own leaflets explaining the services which are available in its own area, and the manner in which a person can go about getting those services. 49. In regard to subhead N.—Supplements to Pensions of certain District Medical Officers and Compensation on vacating Official Dispensary Residences— how many are involved?—I have not the number involved in the matter of pensions, but in regard to the second part, £3,000 was spent on people who have vacated official residences, that is, six grants at £500 each. A greater number would have participated except that they were kept on in a temporary capacity for a further period. Deputy Kenny.—Did they leave the residences to them because they were derelict?—No. A dispensary doctor who was compelled to retire because of the recent age limit, if he were prepared to move out of the dispensary residence and make other arrangements for accommodation within a certain period, could get a cash grant. He could get a grant of £500 if he gave up the residence before a particular date; if before a later date, £400; and if before a later date still, £300. The scheme is to continue for five years. To leave the residence open for another man?—For the new doctor coming in. I thought it was permanently?—No; a doctor is obliged by the terms of his appointment to vacate the residence as soon as he ceases to be the dispensary doctor, but there is often a certain amount of delay before the retired doctor or the widow of a deceased doctor surrenders possession. This scheme was intended to apply only to doctors retiring in the next few years under the recent age limits order. The witness withdrew. VOTE 55—DUNDRUM ASYLUM.Dr. W. J. Coyne called and examined.50. Chairman.—On subhead C.— Uniforms, Clothing for Patients, etc.— there is a saving explained in the note. Has a solution been found to the problem of the type of uniform?—No, it is at conciliation level at the present. 51. In regard to item No. 4 of the Appropriations in Aid—Rents of official quarters—is this the first time rents were charged?—Yes. The attendants pay a £1 a week for living in. 52. Deputy Belton.—Item No. 2 of the Appropriations in Aid refers to receipts from farm and garden produce. How do those receipts arise?—We use our own farm produce to victual the patients and the attendants, and we cost it accordingly. They are not sold on the public market? —No, if there is an excess, the attendants have the privilege of buying it, but only if there is an excess. Deputy Kenny.—How many acres do you farm?—There are 33 acres in the farm: under cultivation, 14; roads, houses and paths, 19. The witness withdrew. VOTE 20—STATIONERY OFFICE.Mr. B. Ó Brolcháin called and examined.53. Chairman.—In regard to subhead E.—Paper—I notice the value of stock in hands at the end of March was nearly £120,000. It is about £14,000 more than in the previous year. Was there an increase in the prices of paper or did you anticipate increased demand?—No, it is a different explanation. These stocks do not balance out year by year, because of differing purchasing dates. As each different paper reaches its minimum stock level we repurchase. A purchase date may happen to fall a little before or after 31st March, which would make a considerable difference in the amount actually in stock on 31st March. Would that account for the large stock you carried in this year? Is that one explanation of it?—That would be one explanation. Another explanation is that stock had run very low in the previous year. That was a year in which we considered we might need a Supplementary Estimate. Stocks were running low. It was decided that orders were to be kept to a minimum, and that we would try to do with what we had rather than ask the Dáil for extra money. 54. Deputy Treacy.—What percentage of that paper would be of foreign import? —I am afraid I have not that information. We buy, as you know, by tender in the open market. Sometimes in tendering, an Irish firm succeeds and sometimes a foreign firm. It would be interesting if we could get a breakdown of that figure in future, if possible?—It would be difficult. Suppose paper of a particular type is purchased this year and the order goes, shall we say, to an Irish firm; suppose the next order, six months afterwards, goes to a foreign firm; we could not, as it were, watch to see which paper was used first and which was used last. We have, as you know, very large stocks distributed over many stores. To keep a check as to how much of the stock was from Irish firms and how much from foreign firms, would possibly require special tabs on the paper to show its origin. Deputy Booth.—Would it be possible to give the information under the heading of purchases under subhead E.? It is not a question of stocks; it is a question of amounts. Would that not be readily ascertainable as a figure: how much Irish paper and how much foreign paper was purchased in a certain period? —That figure could be obtained. Chairman.—And that could be supplied?—Certainly. That would help. At your convenience, then, you might let us know?—I shall attend to it.* 55. Deputy P. J. Burke.—On subhead G.—Office Machinery—is the purchase of machinery carried out in the same way as paper? You buy some foreign as well as some home?—Yes. There is some machinery you have to buy foreign; automatic data processing machines come immediately to mind. Deputy Kenny.—Is it not all bought by tender, paper, machinery, and everything like that?—Broadly speaking, yes, paper and machinery and everything by tender. But if, for instance, proprietary articles, such as cards for punch-card equipment, are purchased they may have to be purchased from a particular firm. Even in those cases the firm is asked to tender, to ascertain the price. In other cases, where it is an open market, it is a matter of competitive tendering. 56. Deputy Booth.—In the notes on page 40—in relation to Appropriations in Aid—Sales—it is set out in item No. 1 that there is a supplementary amount of £6,300 in respect of the sale of publications. Was there any particular publication that was sold very much higher than was estimated to account for the difference between the original estimate of £23,000 and the final amount realised of over £30,000? I hesitate to suggest that the sale of Oireachtas Debates would account for that?—Subscribers for debates have increased somewhat in number. I mentioned last year that the total number of subscribers was 112; it is now 119. That is a comparatively small increase. Was there any other?—It is difficult to say. As we do not keep a check on individual publications, it is difficult to give any firm breakdown showing why the increase arose. I have, however, some figures of sales that may be of interest. The English-Irish dictionary sales were about 2,000 since October, 1961—and we sold about 1,500 copies of Gramadach na Gaeilge in the same period. The sale of Cookery Notes was around 6,000. These are some of the major figures for that particular period. Sales are spread, of course, over many publications. Deputy Kenny.—Would those be sold to schools—Gramadach na Gaeilge?— Yes, they would be purchased by schools and individuals. 57. Chairman.—On No. 2 of the Appropriations in Aid, in regard to the sale of old typewriters, does this represent a sale from all Government Departments? —Yes, of old typewriters surrendered. And from all Departments?—Yes, and from all Departments. Deputy Kenny.—How do you conduct those sales?—The present system is that we trade them in, when purchasing new typewriters, against the cost of new typewriters. Those tendering to supply the new typewriters quote also the amount they would allow against the old machines. Chairman.—Members will have received a copy of the Accounts of the Government Publications Sale Office.* The witness withdrew. The committee adjourned. *Denotes projects in respect of which expenditure is also borne on the relative votes. |
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