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MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA(Minutes of Evidence)Dé Céadaoin, 7ú Nollaig, 1949.Wednesday, 7th December, 1949.The Committee sat at 10.30 a.m.
Mr. W. E. Wann (An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste), Miss M. Bhreathnach and Mr. M. Breathnach (An Roinn Airgeadais) called and examined.Chairman.—As I was Minister for Education during this period, I trust that members of the Committee will not feel in any way precluded from putting questions on the Education Votes. I was seriously considering that I should vacate the Chair and let Deputy Sheldon, who has a great deal of experience, take over. On the other hand, if a report has to be presented to the Dáil on the result of our examination of these accounts, the Chairman, of course, would sign it and, even if the Committee made a comment about these particular accounts, it would be my duty to sign, despite the fact that I was responsible, as Minister, for the administration during the year in question. What is your opinion? If there is any feeling that my presence in the Chair is in any way restrictive, I do not want particularly to be in the Chair at this moment. Perhaps I had better leave and let the members discuss that point. Deputy Sheldon.—I do not think so. There is a precedent for it in any case. Deputy Commons.—I think there is no need for that. Chairman.—Lest there might be any feeling of constraint may I express the hope that members will go into matters as thoroughly as they wish and ask the Accounting Officer for the Department of Education any questions that may enter their minds. We are here to get all the information we can. Anyone who has held the post of Minister might be inclined to take a lot of things for granted. VOTE 28—DUBLIN INSTITUTE FOR ADVANCED STUDIES.Micheál Breathnach called and examined.357. Deputy Sheldon.—With regard to subhead B., dealing with Annual Grants under Section 16 (5) of the Act of 1940, could Mr. Breathnach say, for information purposes, how much has been spent to date under this section on buildings?— We could give you a note on how much is expended each year. I do not think we have the information which would indicate how much has been spent to date. Chairman.—The expenditure in the particular year?—The expenditure in 1947-48 under subhead B. was £13,484. 358. Deputy Sheldon.—Some of that would be unexpended balances from previous years?—Yes. The Institute had a credit balance under subhead B. of £6,000 for 1946-47 and £10,000 for 1947-48, which made £16,000 available for buildings in 1947-48. 359. I was wondering how much had been expended under the section up to date so that we might know how much the Institute had cost in the way of building?— I could supply that information, although it would be a bit long. In 1940-41, the premises 64 and 65 Merrion Square cost £972 for adaptation, and, in the succeeding year, £934 for similar work. There was no further expenditure on the premises until 1949-50. The premises, 5, Merrion Square, the School of Cosmic Physics, cost £10,915 for adaptation in 1947-48 and £4,115 for the same in 1948-49. In 1949-50, £3,000 is the estimated cost of a caretaker’s hut and Cosmic Ray Laboratory. Dunsink Observatory, the third building owned by the Institute, cost, in 1947-48, £2,569 for adaptation and reconstruction and, in 1948-49, £6,781 for the same. The estimated cost of the same in 1949-50 is £1,000. 360. Last year, Miss Bhreathnach of the Department of Finance, said: “I know that £4,500 was the cost of Dunsink”?— That might be for the actual premises and not for adaptation and reconstruction. 361. These figures are only in respect of adaptation and reconstruction?—Adaptation and reconstruction entirely. 362. Chairman.—Is the purchase of Dunsink accounted for under the Board of Works Vote?—Yes. And any other purchases of property?— Yes. The premises in each case are owned by the Board of Works. VOTE 45—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION.Micheál Breathnach further examined.363. Deputy Sheldon.—Is the film projector mentioned in the note on subhead A.3. the same as that mentioned in the note further down in which reference is made to a part payment in respect of the purchase of a film projector?—It is; there is only one film projector. 364. How did it arise as a part payment?—Only a part payment came within the financial period included here. It does not mean that the Department buys on a sort of hire purchase system?—A certain amount was paid. The entire cost of the film projector and other equipment was £230, but the other equipment was got after the projector had been got. 365. The explanation given in respect of the Miscellaneous receipts, which are shown to have been greater than anticipated, is somewhat obvious?—Part of the receipts, I understand, is accounted for by remittances from exiles in America for official verification of their educational attainments. That is difficult to estimate?—It is. We charge them two dollars in each case. You could not advertise the service and earn more dollars? VOTE 46—PRIMARY EDUCATION.Micheál Breathnach further examined.366. Chairman.—Paragraph 41 of the Comptroller and Auditor-General’s Report reads:— “Subhead A.3.—Preparatory Colleges, etc. The average boarding cost per head in the school year 1947-48 ranged from 13s. 4d. to 18s. 10d. per week, showing an increase in each college as compared with the previous year. The average fee paid by the students for the same school year was £15 9s. 6d. as compared with £14 15s. 10d. for the previous year.” Deputy Sheldon.—Could Mr. Breathnach give us some idea as to why there is such a difference in the boarding cost as between one school and another?—One of the colleges, Coláiste Moibhí, is situated near Dublin, where the cost of living is, I presume, higher than in the country and they have also a fewer number of students which also tends to increase the cost per head. They have only 36 students as compared with 80 to 90 in other colleges. In the case of Coláiste Iosagáin, the Ballyvourney College, there was a greater proportion of senior pupils there and apparently the cost of keeping them is higher than it is in the case of junior pupils. We investigated the matter in the case of Coláiste Iosagáin, in which the highest difference is recorded, and sent our chief Organiser of Domestic Economy to make inquiries. She found no sign of waste or extravagance. Chairman.—Could you give us the figures for each of the preparatory colleges?—Yes, for the two years 1946-47 and 1947-48. Coláiste Bríghde, Falcarragh, in 1947-48, 15/1 per head and in 1946-47, 13/6 per head; Coláiste Ide, the Dingle College, 14/7 as against 12/11 in 1946-47; Coláiste Muire, Tourmakeady, 13/4 as against 13/- in 1946-47; Coláiste Moibhí, 18/4 as against 15/1 in 1946-47; Coláiste Einde, Galway, 15/2 as against 14/5 in 1946-47; and Coláiste Iosagáin, Ballyvourney, 18/10 as against 15/6. 367. The remaining portion of paragraph 41 by the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:— “Accounts have been furnished to me showing the receipts and expenditure for the school year 1947-48 in connection with the farms and gardens attached to the colleges. In four of the six accounts the receipts exceeded the expenditure whilst the other two accounts disclosed deficits. With reference to the views expressed by the Committee of Public Accounts in paragraph 8 of its report on the accounts for the year 1945-46 on the question of the control of farming operations, arrangements have now been made for periodical inspection of the farms by officers of the Department of Agriculture and their reports are available to me.” Chairman.—Have you anything to say, Mr. Wann? Mr. Wann.—The first inspections were carried out in the spring of 1948 and one Inspector’s report has been referred to the Audit Office and it is quite satisfactory. 368. Chairman.—Has there been any other report, Mr. Breathnach? Mr. Breathnach.—Not yet. The arrangement is that they visit periodically and I suppose they have to fit it in with their other work. When they visit, not merely do they inspect, but they give advice and assistance in the administration of the farms. 369. Deputy Sheldon.—The chief purpose of the farms is to supply vegetables and milk for the schools?—Yes. Of course they may visit and give advice on the administration without reporting. 370. Chairman.—Will the Department be able to ensure that this inspection will be kept up? Although it is outside our period, are we to take it that there has been no inspection this year so far?—No, I do not think that would be right. There probably have been visits from which no report has eventuated. It is hardly necessary to report every time they visit, as their function, I think, ought to be mainly to advise and assist. 371. As this matter has received a good deal of attention from the Committee, I think the Committee would be interested to see that the inspections were carried out regularly until a stage was reached where a report on each college farm would be available in case the Committee wanted to consider the whole question?—Very well. 372. Chairman.—Paragraph 42, Comptroller and Auditor-General’s Report, reads:— “Subhead C.1.—Salaries, etc., of Teachers. A school was closed on 8th July, 1946, by direction of the Commissioners of Public Works as the building had become dangerous. Alternative accommodation was not available and the erection of a new school was not completed until 22nd November, 1948. With the approval of the Department of Finance, payment of salary was continued to the two teachers employed in the school but their services were not availed of until February, 1948, when arrangements were made for them to augment the staffs of two neighbouring schools attended by the majority of the pupils of the closed school. The salaries and allowances paid to these teachers in respect of the period from 8th July, 1946, to 31st January, 1948, were approximately £1,163.” Chairman.—Have you any comment, Mr. Wann? Mr. Wann.—As stated in the paragraph, the salary was paid to the two teachers from 8th July, 1946, when the school was closed, until 31st January, 1948, and the amount paid to them was £1,163. Chairman.—Perhaps, Mr. Breathnach, you will inform the Committee what the circumstances were. Mr. Breathnach.—The school was closed in July, 1946, because it was certified as dangerous by the Board of Works. We investigated the possibility of repairing it and using it temporarily until a new school would be built, but the Board of Works decided that even that was not feasible. The Manager then tried to get alternative accommodation in the neighbourhood but there was no other accommodation available. Then he tried, we understand, to get even an Army hut but, apparently, he failed in that also. The building of the new school was speeded up as much as possible, but of course that was a difficult time. Materials were scarce and there were other difficulties and it took some time to build the new school. In the meantime, not all the children were deprived of education. Fifteen of them attended St. Kieran’s National School which is 2¾ miles away, and nine of them attended the Blessed Oliver Plunket School four miles away. The remaining six out of the thirty on the roll were of an age when they could not be compelled to go to a school which was so far away, even by the School Attendance Act. Therefore the children did not suffer very much. The question arose of employing the teachers. The situation there would be difficult also. It would be very doubtful if the Department would have any legal right to insist on their serving in any other school and no attempt was made to coerce them. Eventually, in February, 1948, they were so employed. One of them went to the Blessed Oliver Plunket school and the other to St. Kieran’s school between February, 1948 and the date on which the new school was opened, which was November, 1948. 373. Deputy Sheldon.—Was any suggestion made earlier to the teachers that they should take up duties in these schools?— Any suggestion of that kind would have to come in the first instance from the Manager. The Manager, apparently, was away and his substitute was so doubtful about his legal position in the matter that it is possible he did not suggest it. Supposing he did suggest it and they refused, he then would be driven possibly to the alternative of giving them three months notice, but he did not like to face that situation. 374. Did the Department express any views to the Deputy-manager?—Yes, the suggestion was made to the Deputy-manager. 375. Was any attempt made to find even small accommodation for the six children who could not go these distances? Surely, when there were only six of them, it would be possible to get some accommodation?—Every possible avenue was explored for local accommodation for the 30 on the roll or any section of them who could not be accommodated in other schools, or could not go to them, and it failed. Apparently, the place is entirely devoid of any kind of accommodation. There is a fairly large house there and the owner was approached to give a room or two but he refused absolutely. 376. Deputy Pattison.—Did the building become suddenly dangerous?—I understand that the defect was mainly in the roof and anybody who has a house of his own knows how difficult it is to be quite sure when a roof does become dangerous. 377. Are they not subject to any periodical examination?—Yes, by the Board of Works. Apparently, however, this defect was a subtle one and was not discernible until the rain actually began to come in. Then it was found that it had become so rotten that even temporary repairs of any kind would not be sufficient. I cannot understand why on previous inspections the rottenness of the timber was not discovered?—I do not know that the inspection would be so minute as to reveal that. If the structure was apparently in good repair there would not be any necessity for going into it minutely. 378. Having regard to the age of the building would not the Office of Public Works have the original plans and the date of erection, etc., and know that this building was becoming too old and had reached a stage when it should show signs of decay in the roof?—Taking into account the fact that we have 600 other schools practically of the same age and condition, or very near it—— There are many other buildings in this State which are regularly inspected and repaired and kept in condition. I take a serious view of the fact that even six children, who, presumably, were of the poorer section of the community, were deprived of primary education even for a brief period?—Of course the maintenance of a school is the business of the Manager. Deputy Briscoe.—The children were deprived of education during the strike. Deputy Pattison.—Do not mention the strike, Deputy! Probably somebody else was responsible rather than the teachers. 379. Deputy Commons.—Does it not happen even when a school is being repaired that some children have to go to another school in the locality and that some children of six and seven up to ten years are deprived of education?—It is hard to provide for them. I understand the matter because there is a similar case in my County. The best effort is made, but still there will be about a dozen who cannot get any education because they are not big enough to travel the distance. It is one of these things which will happen. 380. Deputy Briscoe.—I take it this school is situated in a small town where there is no great population or great number of buildings available?—This is Clonmacnoise school. It is a country school. 381. Is it in a sparsely populated area?—Yes, the number on the rolls is only 30 and that gives an indication of the population of the area. I should like to make it clear in case of any misunderstanding that the Board of Works exercises regular inspection only over schools vested in the Commissioners or the Minister; that they would not exercise regular inspection over a school like this and that the maintenance of a school is the business of the Manager. I do not know whether these teachers were single or married or had their own homes or were in lodgings. It strikes me, however, that if only six children were concerned, between the two of them they should have been able to find accommodation even in their own rooms for these children. Deputy Commons.—There was no obligation on them?—There was no obligation on them, in the first place, to live in the area. Deputy Briscoe.—We do not know whether they did or not?—Secondly, nobody could force them to receive them in their own homes. There is such a thing as co-operation?—That is right. Deputy Commons.—Which very often is not forthcoming. 382. Chairman.—Paragraph 43, Comptroller and Auditor-General’s Report reads:— “Subhead D.—Superannuation, etc., of Teachers. The prescribed age limits for retirement of teachers is 65 years in the case of a man or 60 years in the case of a woman unless permission has been granted to continue in the service. In previous reports reference was made to the concession granted to certain women teachers to allow them to continue beyond the prescribed age limit. With the consent of the Minister for Finance the concession was further extended to allow women teachers who reach 60 years after 31st December, 1944, or who had less than 35 years’ service at that date, and whose service is efficient, to continue in the service up to 63 years of age or the completion of 38 years’ service and, in cases of special hardship, for a further period. It was also agreed, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, that teachers who reached 65 years during the period 1st October, 1946, to 30th September, 1947, might continue to serve up to 31st December, 1947, in order that they would have the benefit of the new salary scales which were payable as from 31st October, 1946. The number of teachers who retired on pension otherwise than through disablement or inefficiency in the year ended 31st March, 1948, was 80 men and 77 women as compared with 34 men and 28 women in the year ended 31st March, 1947.” Chairman.—If there is no further question, we can take the subheads to the Vote. 383. Deputy Sheldon.—On subhead A.1.—Training Colleges—can the Accounting Officer say the number of teachers who were actually trained in the year?—The figure in the Estimate is substantially correct. 384. The note says that the excess was due to an increase in the number of students in one training college for women? —The increase was due to the admission of an additional number of women students. That refers to 40 additional students admitted to Carysfort Training College. Arrangements were made with the authorities there for the taking over, for the purpose of training an additional 40, a building which was in the grounds and which is owned by the College. They kindly put it at our disposal for the training of these 40 extra women teachers. That arrangement is likely to continue for two or three years more. 385. Deputy Sheldon.—On subhead A.4.—Grants for Colleges Providing Courses in Irish for Primary Teachers— the note says that the number of teachers who attended Irish Colleges was less than expected. Was that due to the fact that they did not need this course?—Largely, that is so. They went to these courses mainly to secure the bilingual certificate. Now a great many of them secure that as a result of the final examination in the training college. 386. Deputy Sheldon.—On subhead B.—Examinations—the note says that the number of students who attend the primary certificate examination was less than anticipated. Does that mean that there are less children attending school, or is there any special reason for the reduction in the numbers attending for this certificate examination?—It is a casual fluctuation. There is very little difference in the numbers for 1946, 1947 and 1948. In 1946 there were nearly 28,000; in 1947, 29,000 and in 1948, over 30,000. 387. Deputy Sheldon.—On subhead C.5. —Free Grants of School Requisites—the note refers to a saving due to scarcity of school requisites. Does that mean that there were no school requisites to be had and that therefore there was no money spent?—Most of the school requisites in this case were maps and charts and they were unobtainable. 388. Deputy Mrs. Crowley.—Subhead C.6. refers to grants towards the cost of heating, etc., of schools and cleansing. Does the “etc .”, include the grant for the cost of cleaning of school is all that is included. 389. Is the grant for the cleaning of schools fully availed of?—The maximum is £65,000. As you will see, only £58,360 was claimed. It was not claimed in full. 390. Deputy Briscoe.—I think what Deputy Mrs. Crowley is anxious to find out is under which heading the saving was really made. Was it under the heading for heating or cleaning that there was not a demand for the full amount?—They are not segregated in that way. Payment is made on vouchers submitted by the Managers which cover both. 391. On subhead C.11.—Special Evening Classes in Dublin City—I take it that this is a new service?—It has ceased. But it was introduced as a new service in 1947-48?—It was introduced in January, 1947. As a new service?—It was for a particular purpose. 392. Although it was introduced as a new service it was not availed of?—It was not availed of to the extent that we hoped it would be. Could we be told what was the reason for that?—In January, 1947, we promulgated this scheme to 160 managers in Dublin offering evening classes for children over 14, the idea being that they had suffered some loss through the strike period and that they would not be returning to school. This was an effort to make up to them for what they had lost. The classes commenced on the 19th March, 1947, and were continued, wherever the attendance warranted it, until the end of June of the same year. The classes were started in 17 centres and only 9 of them persevered to the end. Eight of them ceased owing to lack of attendance during the period. Lack of attendance on the part of the pupils?—Yes. That is what I wanted to find out. 393. Deputy Sheldon.—In the Estimate it is mentioned that the classes were intended for those who had ceased attending a National School and had entered employment?—Yes. Was that not restrictive?—The idea behind that was that those who had not entered employment could go back to school in the ordinary way during the day time. Do you think that had any effect on the interest taken in the classes?—I do not think so because it would be open to those who were not in employment to continue their attendance at school in the ordinary way. 394. Just for the purposes of the record, I wonder could we have figures showing the total number of children who were in a position to attend under this and the total number of children who actually attended?—I could not supply the figures now, but we never considered that we were under any obligation to those who could attend school in the ordinary way. 395. Deputy Briscoe.—Was the service originally intended to be a permanent service?—No. Chairman.—Perhaps the Accounting Officer may be able to get for us information as to the numbers that he thinks might have availed themselves of this service?—Very well, I will try.* 396. Deputy Sheldon.—With regard to the Reid Bequest, I wonder could we have some information as to the scale on which payment is made?—I understand that arises through the possibility of there not being money available—not sufficient money available for a scholarship. Deputy Sheldon.—The income for the year was £123. It was not so very different from the incomes in schemes B and C. You could not say what the purpose of scheme A is? Scheme B seems to be for prizes to candidates going into Training Colleges?—Yes. And scheme C is for the payment of Exhibitions to University students?—As regards scheme A, every three years, beginning in 1920, the Divisional Inspector of Kerry would select six of the most efficient of the boys from national schools and the income would be distributed equally amongst them. The amount to be assigned to each boy every three years would be arranged by the Inspectors. The Manager selects the pupils and distributes the money. He has to have a vouched account. It is mainly to encourage boys who are poor but clever, to assist boys of limited means with books and clothes or money payments. Perhaps you could let us have a note on what has happened?—Yes.* 397. The same applies to the Fr. O’Halloran Memorial Fund?—I take it you want to know why there was no payment there?†. VOTE 47—SECONDARY EDUCATION.Micheál Breathnach further examined.398. Deputy Sheldon.—With reference to subhead F.—Courses in Irish—the note indicates there were no courses held. How did a payment arise?—There was a mathematical course held in 1948. The note says no summer courses were held?—There was no course held in 1947 —no summer course. The payment was for the mathematical course. 399. The Erasmus Smith Endowment— judging by the two balances at the beginning and end of the year it looks as if payments that year were smaller than usual. The balance on hands was considerably higher at the end of the year?— There was a steady flow of payments to all who qualified for the scholarships in the ordinary way. Chairman.—Perhaps Deputy Sheldon would like to know how it comes about that we have this cash balance—or is it a cash balance or just a difference between the two sides? 400. Deputy Sheldon.—It is a cash balance. Apparently there were not so many people eligible as in the previous year?— The dividends shown accrue from the investments. When the cash balance reaches a sizable extent it is invested. 401. Deputy Briscoe.—You are not bound to spend the income in each year in any event?—No. 402. Who lays down the standard that has to be reached for a person to benefit? —The whole thing is worked in accordance with the scheme laid down by the Court. We operate the scheme. 403. I understand the Erasmus Smith scholarships apply to secondary schools and the schools are limited to the number of scholarships apart from any standard. Surely the Court has not laid down the standard? In one year you might have a number of competitors for the scholarships available and they might be used up by a number of brilliant boys and in the following year other boys and girls would qualify. I cannot understand why there should be any balance, why the income should not be used up each year?—The first call on the income is the reconstruction of the school and then there is a subsidy for the carrying on of an agricultural course in the school. The third charge is scholarships. We give the subsidy and the scholarships but the amount earmarked for the rebuilding of the school has not been entirely expended. That explains it—that is satisfactory. I thought it related entirely to scholarships?—Oh, no. VOTE 48—TECHNICAL INSTRUCTION.Micheál Breathnach further examined.404. Chairman.—Paragraph 44 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General reads: “Subhead A.—Scholarships. Scholarships to students of Coláiste Muire le Tíos are subject to a means test, the amount payable for any school year being calculated by reference to a scale approved by the Department of Finance. I am in communication with the Accounting Officer regarding the amounts awarded in certain cases.” Mr. Wann.—The amount of the scholarship awarded in a particular case depends on the income of the student’s parents or guardians as assessed under a means scale approved by the Department of Finance. In the course of audit, it was noticed in three cases that the award did not appear to be in accordance with the approved means scale. In one case it was observed that in arriving at the net income of the parents, the amount of £50 was deducted in respect of each of seven dependants, whereas the maximum allowance was £50 for not more than six dependants. I am now informed that the scale of income originally laid down by the Department of Finance was found to be too limited in range and militated against the parents of large families. The position was rendered more unsatisfactory by the decrease in the value of money which took place during the emergency. At the commencement of the 1947-48 session it was decided to extend the scale by £50 per additional dependant, so as to give parents with more than six dependants the benefits of this scheme. Although approval for this extension was received from the Department of Finance by telephone, it was omitted to confirm this by written application at the time. This has now been done and a copy of the Department of Finance covering sanction has been received. In the other two cases, I am informed that the Department has carried out a re-investigation of means and that the scholarships awarded were found to be justified. Chairman.—Have you anything to add to Mr. Wann’s statement, Mr. Breathnach?—We have very little time for investigating the question of income in these cases. The examination takes place at the end of June and the beginning of July and until the examination has taken place and the successful candidates have been decided upon, we cannot make any investigation with regard to income. The colleges open in September and that leaves us little time in between. We do the best we can with the time at our disposal. We cannot guarantee that we will pursue inquiries to the extent of one hundred per cent. As it turned out, there were circumstances that made our computation justifiable in these particular cases. 405. Deputy Sheldon.—Were the results of the examination disclosed to the candidates before inquiries were held?—They would have to be made known to the Inspectors, at any rate, who made the inquiries. What I was visualising was that a candidate might be told he had reached the standard and might be disappointed later because of the means?—That could happen. I suppose it is unavoidable?—It is unavoidable; it could happen. 406. Chairman.—Could we have some further information as to the scale or will you send in a note later?—I have the old scale which has, of course, been extended by £50 in the case of parents with more than six children. I shall send in a note.* We shall pass on now to the Vote proper since there do not seem to be any other questions arising on this. 407. Deputy Sheldon.—With regard to subhead G., I do not quite understand why the retention of a number of Chief Executive Officers should have caused a saving?—If they had gone out on pension their pensions, of course, would have to be paid plus the salaries of those who replaced them. 408. Do both payments come under the same subhead?—Yes. 409. Chairman.—Is superannuation not segregated as distinct from current salaries? 410. Deputy Sheldon.—Is there some special provision in the Acts for superannuation?—They are repayments to local authorities. This subhead makes provision for the payment of half the pension and gratuities. These were the men at the maximum of their salary scales and their pensions would be proportionately high; they did not go out on pension and the charge, therefore, did not fall either on us or on the local authority. 411. Deputy Briscoe.—Might we go back to subhead B.—Annual Grants to Vocational Education Committees. Are these grants given in the main in conjunction with the local authorities?—Yes. 412. The payments are not similar in the case of each local authority. Is this done on the basis of agreement to pay a certain amount of money? How is it arranged?—Payment is made on the basis of the amount collected from the rates in the particular area. We do not pay the same amount per £ in every area. In Dublin it is £ for £. In Dún Laoghaire it is £2 per £. In the counties it is £ for £. In the other county boroughs and urban areas it is £4 per £. The grant is regulated according to the amount the rates produce in each particular area. 413. I am not quite clear. How is the amount decided or how is agreement reached? Can the Department change the grant from year to year in relation to the case made by a particular local authority? Are the types of schools, numbers of classes and numbers attending taken into consideration?—It is mainly based on the amount the particular rate in the area produces. 414. Why do you give £4 to a £ in some areas and £ to £ in other areas?—Because the amount collected from the rate in the former area would be small. 415. In other words you subsidise and you give a bigger subsidy in areas where the total rate is small?—Yes. 416. Chairman.—Take the Tralee Urban District. It has a separate scheme. Obviously the amount produced by the rates there would be very small and would not be sufficient to carry on the scheme unless substantial aid was given. The City of Dublin has, of course, had its grants increased. Perhaps Deputy Briscoe did not know that?—They have had their grants increased. The rate that can be struck is limited. 417. Deputy Briscoe.—Is that by agreement with your Department?—No, it is by statute. 418. Some misunderstanding did exist amongst members of local authorities and the public on this matter. The purpose is to enable areas with a small total rate collection to run Vocational Schools?— Yes. VOTE 49—SCIENCE AND ART.Mícheál Breathnach further examined.419. Chairman.—There is a paragraph, number 45, on page 29 which reads:— “Subhead A.6.—Purchase of Books, etc. (Grants-in-Aid). An additional provision of £20,000 for this Grant-in-Aid was made by Supplementary Estimate to defray the cost of acquisition of an important collection of Irish historical records. After the purchase price had been paid and the records lodged in the National Library it was found that difficulties existed in connection with the legal transfer of the title in the property, and I have inquired as to the present position.” Mr. Wann.—The collection of historical records are those known as the Ormonde Archives which it was proposed to purchase from Lord Ormonde. The legal difficulties arose because it was found that the seller had only a life interest in the property. The amount of the purchase money has been placed on deposit in the joint names of the trustees of the Ormonde estate and the Director of the National Library. I am not aware of the present position of the matter. Chairman.—Can you enlighten us any further, Mr. Breathnach?—The present position seems to be a deadlock. The money is deposited in the joint names of Dr. Hayes and the Trustees of the Ormonde Estate. We are waiting for an Order from the Court to sell these documents. Meanwhile they are deposited in the National Library. 420. Did you have to initiate the Order in Court proceedings?—No. That rests with the solicitor to the Trustees and he is not making any move. 421. In the meantime are these archives available?—I doubt if they are available at present. They are not yet ours. 422. Deputy Briscoe.—To whom will the deposit interest accrue? The £20,000 is on deposit in the bank. It is obviously earning interest at the rate of one per cent. That is quite a substantial amount of money and, if it is there for a number of years, it will be earning compound interest?—The money is still ours until it is paid over. 423. If the Trustees have any law costs, will those costs be their own?—Yes. 424. Therefore, any interest accruing will be a refund to the Exchequer?—Yes. The money is ours. 425. Chairman.—Under subhead B.10. we have the production of films on behalf of Government Departments. There is a note, number 46, on that at page 29. The note reads:— “In order to make available to schools and other educational and cultural bodies a selection of films with commentaries in Irish, an agreement was entered into between the Minister for Education and a film producing organisation whereby the latter undertook to replace in a number of selected film shorts the original sound tracks in English by sound tracks in Irish, and to rent these films to the Minister for a period of two years. A sum of £890 paid under the agreement is charged to this subhead. The rented films were transferred to the National Film Institute of Ireland for use in their film library. I have inquired regarding the arrangements made with the Institute and the extent to which the films have been used.” Mr. Wann.—The film producing organisation referred to is Metro-Goldwyn-Meyer. The Audit Office has been informed that the films in question were placed by the Minister for Education with the National Film Institute for distribution through the schools, educational authorities, etc. The films are distributed by the Institute free of all charges except the cost of packing and transport. I understand that all the films are being widely and successfully shown. 426. Chairman.—Further to what Mr. Wann has said, Mr. Breathnach, perhaps you could give us some idea of the way in which this is working?—We got these films from Metro-Goldwyn-Meyer and we had sound tracks put to them in Irish. We gave them to the National Film Institute for distribution free to schools and educational establishments except for the cost of transport and packing. We have a return from the Institute as to the extent to which they are being used. One of them, called “Laochra Mara” has been shown 159 times. Another, based on the life of Father Damien, has been shown 136 times. Another, which is called “Fear Eachtach” has been shown 99 times. Another on the life of Dr. Jenner has been shown 89 times; one on the life of Alfred Nobel has been shown 87 times and another on the Southern American States, the cotton-growing area, has been shown 86 times 427. Deputy Sheldon.—What do the two titles which you mentioned in Irish mean?—“Laochra Mara” means “Heroes of the Sea”, and “Fear Eachtach” means “Wonderful Man”. Chairman.—“Laochra Mara” seems to be the most popular of these films?— Yes. Chairman.—The sea is very popular on the films but not so popular in real life? —Actually, the film “Laochra Mara” deals with shark fishing. The film “Fear Eachtach” is about the life of Edison. We have examined several short pictures since but have failed to decide on any one that would be quite suitable. However, we hope to continue. 428. Deputy Sheldon.—Are there any purely educational films of an instructive type, Mr. Breathnach?—They are not used in Irish to any extent here. 429. Are any used in the English language?—That would rest with the school itself. 430. I am asking that question because I had an inquiry from Australia about visual education in Ireland. What exactly is the position?—There is very little visual education in this country. Chairman.—Now let us deal with the Vote itself. 431. Deputy Briscoe.—On subhead A.4. —National Museum: Purchase of Specimens (Grant-in-Aid)—is that grant paid over in full or is it the case that, where the National Museum get sufficient specimens to exhaust the limit of the Vote, there are, in any particular year, instances where, because of lack of money, they had to let specimens go by the board, Mr. Breathnach?—It is paid over in full. There are particulars on page 165. It is, obviously, not all expended. They can retain the balance and if any specially desirable specimen comes on the market they will have a reserve with which to purchase it. They apparently have reserves now in excess of the annual Vote?—Yes. And you are satisfied with that position?—We never know when something might come on the market which would take it away. For instance, gold ornaments and so forth. 432. Does your Department have any powers of recommendation in regard to specific types of specimens or do you leave the matter entirely to the National Museum?—In the Department we would not be experts on any of these things. We would have to be advised. 433. If your Department gives a grant for this specific purpose, I take it that at least you should be satisfied—apart from the question of an expert knowledge of the art—that it is something that you, from the Science and Art point of view, want to see. Is that so?—Every proposal for a purchase must be submitted and sanctioned by the Department. Then you do?—Yes. 434. Deputy Sheldon.—For some years past, owing to world conditions, was it difficult to get specimens, Mr. Breathnach?—Yes, especially for the Geological Museum. 435. Chairman.—On A.6.—Purchase of Books for National Library—I take it that the supplementary is in reference to the Ormonde archives, Mr. Breathnach? —Yes. 436. Deputy Sheldon.—With regard to subhead B.10.—Production of Films on behalf of Government Departments—I presume that the Department act only as agent for other Departments. They do not initiate the type of film to be produced, do they Mr. Breathnach?—No. This arose in connection with a special film which was proposed by the Department of Agriculture on potato culture. We were the go-between as between the Department of Agriculture and the National Film Institute which was to produce the film. The decision not to make the film did not, then, rest with your people?—No, not with us. Chairman.—Are there any further questions on Vote 49. 437. Deputy Sheldon.—Again on this, I take it that no medal was issued under Dr. Hyde’s bequest. Is that so, Mr. Breathnach?—No medal was issued. The scheme is not in full operation yet. We expect to publish very soon the proposed subject matter of the pictures for the first competition. VOTE 50—REFORMATORY AND INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS.Micheál Breathnach further examined.438. Deputy Sheldon.—I notice that it says that owing to the delay in the preparation of plans and in securing a building licence a sum of £1,500 only was expended out of the balance of a special grant of £30,226 towards the cost of a new Industrial School for senior boys. Surely the Department of Industry and Commerce could not delay issuing a building licence for a building specifically ordered by the Dáil? In the Estimate this building was mentioned specifically. Did the Department of Industry and Commerce really hold up a licence under such circumstances?—I understand that that is the case. Deputy Sheldon.—That is extraordinary. Mr. Breathnach.—The building licences were rationed and I suppose this matter came under the heading of educational establishments. They had to take their place in the rationing system. 439. Deputy Sheldon.—But, in fact, this particular building was mentioned specifically in the Estimate. The Dáil proceeded to say this building should be built. Did the Department of Industry and Commerce then turn around and say: “You will not”? Of course, it is a matter for the Department of Industry and Commerce. However, will you tell us what you know about the matter?— The Department of Industry and Commerce did not say: “You will not.” What they did say was: “Not yet.” Deputy Sheldon.—We can get after them. 440. Chairman.—With regard to subhead E, payments borne by parents, we should like to know if the Appropriations are entirely composed of payments by parents?—Not necessarily. They would be payments under the Widows’ and Orphans’ Pensions Acts in Britain and also allowances paid by the British Army. 441. Deputy Sheldon.—There seems to be a downward tendency this year in the number of children in detention. Is that so?—That is true. Is there, in fact, a downward tendency? —Definitely. The witness withdrew. VOTE 41—LOCAL GOVERNMENT.Mr. J. Garvin called and examined.442. Chairman.—Paragraph 37 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General states:— “Subhead I.1.—Contributions towards loan charges under the Housing (Financial and Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1932. As will be seen from the account, the expenditure under this subhead amounted to £596,951 17s. 3d. Provisional grants towards the cost of housing schemes totalling £408,359 were also made to fourteen local authorities, on a basis approved by the Department of Finance, out of moneys provided from the Transition Development Fund established by sub-section (1) of section 30 of the Finance Act, 1946.” These grants fluctuate from time to time? —Yes; at the moment it is based on a grant of £400 per cottage and £600 per flat. Previously it was £300 per cottage and £400 per flat. 443. Deputy Sheldon.—When were the figures first fixed?—The figures were originally fixed following the 1946 Budget and, having regard to the upward trend of building costs, approval was subsesequently given in 1948 to an increase in the maximum grants from £300 to £400 for cottages and from £400 to £600 for flats. I should add, however, that in regard to the grant for cottages in rural areas where water and sewerage facilities are not provided, the amount has been allowed to remain at £300. 444. Deputy Briscoe.—Does the fact that the grants have been increased mean that there have been supporting grants from the Transition Development Fund? —I think the reference here is to grants from the Transition Development Fund. 445. The way I read it is that the Department gave certain subsidies and that in addition there were subsidies from the Transition Development Fund which were specially designed to meet the situation caused by increased building costs?—The statutory grants are made under the Housing (Financial and Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1932, and they take the form of a subsidy to meet the loan charges. The grants mentioned here are from the Transition Development Fund?—That is so. 446. Deputy Sheldon.—With regard to the building of cottages, is the Department satisfied to sanction the very great differences in building costs from one county to another?—We have fixed a ceiling beyond which we are not prepared to go in regard to tenders. We recognise that various factors have to be reckoned with in regard to variations in cost as between one county and another in where the variation upwards is very exceptional we refuse to sanction it. 447. Deputy Briscoe.—Has any sort of static position been reached with regard to building costs or do they still tend to increase?—I think we are attaining a fair measure of stability at the present time. We have consistently recommended local authorities to re-advertise contracts where the figures have proved excessive, where the tenders have been unreasonable or where no tenders have been forthcoming. We have recommended local authorities to set up direct labour organisations which would take on a particular portion of the programme. The different steps taken in these directions have, I think, helped, together with better competition in the matter of contracts, to stabilise prices. 448. Would you be able to give the Committee roughly an idea of the costs of the two or three types of houses you have mentioned to-day, as compared with what they were some years ago? What has been the increase?—We are getting a house with water supply and sewerage provided, at a total all-in cost, including development, at from £1,200 to £1,400. Any figure over that is either an unreasonable tender or is based upon a design which provides greater amenities. In the rural areas, I should think that anything over £1,000 would be regarded as excessive. 449. How do these prices compare with the position before there was any assistance from the Transition Development Fund?—The Transition Development Fund has operated practically since the post-emergency housing programme was resumed. Before that there were practically no contracts or tenders forthcoming, that is to say, up to 1945-46. 450. What was the price in 1939 of the house for which you are now trying to fix a ceiling of from £1,200 to £1,400?—A Dublin Corporation four-roomed house in 1939 cost about £400. In 1947 a similar house cost £990. 451. Chairman.—You say the Transition Development Fund accounts for what amount?—Four hundred pounds. At the present time it would be £500? —No, £400 still. 452. Would there be any change in the accommodation?—There has been little change. We are still concentrating on the smaller houses, having regard to the scarcity of materials and the urgency of getting the greatest possible number of houses erected. 453. Is the bathroom still a feature?— Yes, certainly. 454. Can you express any opinion as to whether the costs in connection with sanitation and bathrooms have increased disproportionately in regard to the other costs?—There has been an upward trend in the cost of plumbing, rain-water goods and accessories of that kind but I think they have been in better supply in more recent times. 455. You could not say what would be the cost of providing a bathroom in a four-roomed house?—No. 456. Deputy Briscoe.—Generally speaking we can expect that position to continue for some time. that the price of construction will be something about one hundred per cent. over what it was in 1939?—It is much more. Deputy Sheldon.—It would be two hundred per cent.?—Yes. 457. Chairman.—Does the cost of the land enter into the £1,200?—Yes. The actual cost of the site. 458. You have no figures to show the cost of the site in the two periods?—I could not say what the cost was three or four years ago but the prices awarded at arbitration following compulsory acquisition in recent times has amounted to about £500 an acre. 459. On both sides of the city?—On the south side at any rate. 460. Deputy Briscoe.—Do you break down the charges in the sense of segregating the cost of the acquisition of sites, the development cost, and the actual building as distinct from materials including, say, the labour content in relation to the total cost of the scheme?—In assessing the finances of the scheme we do. 461. The cost of materials would not have gone up two hundred per cent.?—The cost of materials has advanced very considerably. There has been also an increase in wages. We are not yet in a position to break down the total cost in any detailed manner but we have experts at work on it in the Department and we hope to be able to make a statement on that in the near future. 462. You would not be able to give the Committee a rough idea on that? The reason I ask for it is because there is quite a conflict, as you are probably aware, as to what is really happening. One of the main bones of contention as between the contract form of building and the direct labour form of building, is that, apart from the increased cost of labour, output itself has fallen, due to the smaller number of working hours and also to a decrease in the actual physical output. I think it would be helpful if some authoritative body, which knows the facts, not only from one particular area but generally from the whole country, could give information and as far as possible break down the different costs of building. 463. Chairman.—You say you are making a statement in the near future?— We do not wish to speak on it until we can speak with authority. On this question of building costs?— Yes. 464. Does that arise from your own investigations or has it to do with the Committee on restrictive practices?—It has nothing to do with a Committee. What we have in mind in the Department is to make the best comparison we can in relation to contract figures, although we cannot go into the details of contract figures. We have no means of doing so. That is to say, we do not know on what a particular contractor bases his prices but, so far as direct labour is concerned, we have taken every possible pains to ensure that direct labour schemes undertaken by local authorities will be scientifically costed. When we have the results of these experimental schemes, we shall have first-hand information in regard to the relative costs of labour, materials and any other factors which may affect prices. 465. How are the materials charged for the direct labour schemes?—That is left to the County Engineer or whatever engineer or architect is in charge of the scheme. Sometimes they have a central stock kept in stores operated by the local authority. In the more diffused schemes, in the rural areas, it is generally convenient to make an arrangement with particular firms to retain the goods ordered until they are required for delivery at the site. 466. Is there any completed scheme of direct labour for which you have figures? —There is no scheme for which we have absolutely final figures. The scheme undertaken by the Wicklow Urban District Council and some others should be fully completed in the near future and I think we should be able to produce costs based on that. 467. This is the first completed scheme? —I think so. A number of local authorities in the last 12 or 18 months have adopted similar schemes. There are schemes in progress in Waterford, Limerick, Clare and Kilkenny and a number of other counties. 468. Deputy Briscoe.—But not in the City of Dublin?—Yes, there are schemes in progress in Dublin. Chairman.—In the county or city?— In the city, anyway, in the Crumlin area. It is under way. Deputy Briscoe.—It has been designed but it has not begun to operate yet. 469. Deputy Sheldon.—With regard to the figure for rural cottages, I do not think the tenders accepted have anywhere been as low as £900, apart from the cost of acquisition of the site. In County Donegal no tender was accepted under £1,100 and that did not include the acquisition of a site?—I think that £1,000 is on the whole rather high, but I would not say that £1,100 is a figure we would baulk at if we did not get better pricing. I quite agree, however, that it is high. 470. Chairman.—Would you have the position that when you are starting in an area the first tenders might be higher than you would expect until the small contractors had set up their organisation? You would want it competitive from the beginning?—We want the utmost competition. What you say was a fact in 1946 and 1947 at any rate. The contracts for dispersed cottages were rather uneconomic and we had difficulties with regard to their completion. 471. Deputy Briscoe.—Do you find that there is a willingness on the part of builders’ providers to co-operate with local authorities in direct labour schemes? I suppose that you are aware that there was a difficult position at one time?—I am aware of that. 472. Is there a tendency towards better co-operation?—I have had no complaints. I personally inspected schemes in Waterford including Portlaw and I gathered from the County Engineer that the supplies position was better. 473. Chairman.—What about the Dublin area? Waterford would import directly? —Direct labour schemes in the Dublin area have not advanced far yet. 474. Dublin importers, I suppose, deal with the greater part of the country, certainly from the population point of view. Then Waterford, Cork and Limerick are also local supply centres?—Limerick and Ennis. Dublin Corporation has the nucleus of a supplies system for direct labour in their works yards and stores and they do maintenance work by direct labour already. 475. Deputy Briscoe.—In connection with builders’ providers’ supplies, we have had conferences with representatives of various business interests and we almost had to take the line of seeking sanction from your Department as well as from the Department of Industry and Commerce in order to bring in our own materials and store them over long periods?—That is so. 476. Chairman.—Will local authorities have responsibility in regard to maintenance, or once a house is completed does their obligation terminate?—They are obliged to maintain houses provided by themselves and let, unless the house is sold under one of the purchase schemes. 477. The Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act?—There is no obligation there. 478. But in all other cases?—In the cases where the cottages are owned by the local authority the liability for their maintenance is on the local authority. 479. Deputy Briscoe.—The local authority does not consider it necessary then to make a periodical inspection to see that these houses are in fact properly maintained as to painting and other works, particularly in view of the fact that there is a subsidy on the interest charges?— They may find it difficult to overtake the arrears which accumulated during the emergency when materials, including maintenance materials, were scarce, but it was consistent practice to have regular inspections in relation to maintenance. Provision for maintenance by the Corporation is on the generous side. 480. I quite agree, but does your Department not maintain the right to assert its control by periodical inspections by your inspectors?—If the occasion arose we would make special inspections, but the efforts of the inspectors are directed to new rather than to old schemes. 481. If the building programme is carried through the City of Dublin will become the biggest landlord in the country with a very heavy subsidy in the shape of interest charges from the State itself through the Department of Local Government. It might be good to have it known that these buildings should be properly maintained so that their life would be as long as possible?—I agree. The Corporation themselves, however, have a rather high standard and it can easily come to our knowledge if that standard is not being adhered to. Furthermore, we are encouraging in Dublin, Cork and other more populous centres the appointment of Housing Inspectors, generally women, who have some qualifications in Social Science and can advise tenants about the maintenance of their houses and the use of baths, laundry facilities, grates, and so on. The inside is as important as the outside?—I agree. 482. Chairman.—There is a note, number 38, on the Motor Tax Account:— “A test examination has been applied to the Motor Tax Account with generally satisfactory results. The certificates and reports of the Local Government Auditors who examine the motor tax transactions of local authorities were scrutinised, in so far as they were available, but in eight cases this audit had not been completed at the date of my test examination.” Mr. Wann.—It is normal to have some of the audits not completed at the date of examination. 483. Chairman.—There is this further paragraph:— “The gross proceeds of Motor Vehicles, etc., duties in 1947-48, including £26,240 3s. 11d. attributable to fines collected by the Department of Justice, amounted to £2,004,197 12s. 2d., as compared with £1,476,696 13s. 7d. in the previous year. Fees amounting to £5,267 8s. 6d. received on behalf of the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána under the Road Traffic Act (Parts VI and VII) (Fees) Regulations, 1937 (Statutory Rules and Orders, No. 92 of 1937) are also included in the receipts.” 484. Deputy Briscoe.—Is the Motor Tax Account paid into the Road Fund? —Yes. 485. And the Road Fund is specially accounted for under a different heading?— Yes. 486. Deputy Sheldon.—With regard to subhead F. F.—Expenses of Committee on road surfacing in relation to horse-drawn traffic-has the report of the Committee on road surfacing been issued?—Not yet. Their findings will probably be related to some extent to the census of road traffic which took place some time ago. It had to wait for that and there were delays in printing. The Chairman of the Committee was Mr. Courtney who was then Chief Engineering Adviser and has now been seconded to C.I.E. Possibly his departure may have retarded the preparation of the report. The question of road surfacing is a burning one in the country. 487. Chairman.—Under subhead I.3.— Grants to Local Authorities under the Housing (Amendment) Act, 1946—no schemes qualified for the payment of grants within the year. Subhead K— Development Works in Bogs acquired by Local Authorities—will disappear?—Yes. 488. With regard to anticipated savings, we are told to see the Supplementary Estimate. We are always told that, but I do not see the details of how the savings were effected. Could you not give the different subheads under which savings were made? Mr. Wann.—It is not the normal practice. 489. Deputy Sheldon.—It is probably given by the Minister in the debate. With regard to subhead L., do the fees paid by local authorities cover the whole cost of the audit?—No. They covered only a small proportion of it up to recently but in the Account before you the fees payable by local authorities have been stepped up to bear a closer relation to the expenses on auditors’ salaries and travel. It is proposed to step them up still more in future. I understand that the Department of Finance would like the fees to meet two-thirds of the cost. Chairman.—Why only two-thirds? Deputy Sheldon.—Poor ratepayers! Mr. Garvin.—The auditors do a certain amount in the interests of the State in relation to the certification of certain grants. Sometimes they have to go down specially with regard to certification earlier than they would normally go to the area, to have the costs passed before the 31st of March. 490. Deputy Briscoe.—Where is the Road Fund Account?—The Road Fund Account has generally been presented in stencilled form but I have made arrangements to have it printed in future. 491. There is a change now in the expenditure of the Road Fund itself. It is diverted to matters other than those for which it was originally used and I think we should be given details of how the Road Fund is dealt with?—I am not aware of any new diversion. 492. Originally the income from the taxation of motor vehicles went into what was called the Road Fund and was used exclusively for the maintenance of the roads by way of grants to local authorities and subsidies, but now I understand that the amount to be expended from the Road Fund by way of grants does not relate to the total receipts of the Road Fund at all and that the Road Fund income can be used for purposes other than the actual expenditure on the roads?—Are you referring to diversion in aid of general taxation? Yes?—That has been a fairly constant feature of Road Fund expenses over the past 25 years. We do not like to see these “raids” on the Road Fund, but we have had to put up with them over a number of years. 493. Deputy Briscoe.—It might be wise for us to have an idea as to what amount of the Road Fund money is, in fact, being left with you for the recoupment of road expenses. That could be sent on?—Yes.* Chairman.—You will send us the Account?—Yes. 494. Regarding item 5 on page 134— Salaries of officers acting temporarily as Local Government Commissioners—what does that mean?—It means that, when the members of a local authority are removed from office, generally it is a civil servant from the Department of Local Government who is appointed as Commissioner. He is paid by the local authority and his official salary is treated as an Appropriation in Aid. 495. Deputy Sheldon.—I was wondering about the recoupment from the Central Fund, under Extra Receipts payable to the Exchequer, at the foot of page 133. Chairman.—Perhaps you could send a note on that?—You mean a note in regard to the salary of the Inspector of Anatomy? 496. Deputy Sheldon.—It says: “recoupment” but recoupment was of no use to your Vote?—I think the position was that the Anatomy Act, which is an Act of the early portion of the 19th century, was not included in the schedule of transfers to the Department of Health; and the Department of Local Government, until a new Order was made, had to carry the salary for the Inspector of Anatomy. That function has now been transferred to the Department of Health, and I think this adjustment was a result of the temporary position. Deputy Sheldon.—This note is more or less for information?—We should not have carried that £100, but we had to do so until the function was transferred to the Department of Health. The witness withdrew. The Committee adjourned. |
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