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MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA(Minutes of Evidence)Déardaoin, 1ú Nollaig, 1949.Thursday, 1st December, 1949.The Committee sat at 10.30 a.m.
Mr. W. E. Wann (An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste), Mr. C. S. Almond and Mr. F. T. McHenry (An Roinn Airgeadais), called and examined.VOTE 43—DUNDRUM ASYLUM.Dr. W. J. Coyne called and examined.239. Chairman.—How does the cost of maintaining a patient stand now? I see in the Estimates of the year under review that it was estimated at £29 5s. 6d. Have you any figures as to the present cost per head?—I came there only on May 29th, but Mr. O’Toole. our clerk, will be able to supply you with those figures. It is roughly between £40 and £41 per annum for 1949-50. 240. Will it remain stable, do you think? —I do not think so. I think it will go up considerably. 241. I wonder could we have any reasons for that?—It may be a personal reason. I am trying to hospitalise the institution and trying to turn it from a criminal lunatic asylum into a modern mental hospital and to introduce modern treatments for mental disorders. Initially, that will be rather expensive, but will not continue. It will come under subhead D. 242. Deputy Sheldon.—I presume that most of the farm produce is used?—The majority of it is used and the surplus is sold. Chairman.—So you really have more than you require?—Not in everything but in practically all farm produce. 243. How do you stand with regard to meat?—The meat is obtained under contract and brought in and cut up. 244. Do you make your own contract or is it a Government contract?—The Inspector of Mental Hospitals comes out there every six months. We ask for tenders and he opens them and accepts one. 245. What about subhead C?—The Visiting Committee have been stressing the importance of giving the patients better clothing so the cost may go up a little. We have purchased a large amount of tweed from Gaeltarra Éireann and all the suits are being cut to measure instead of being taken off the peg. You have a tailoring workshop?—Yes. And are you able to do that work in the Institution?—We do it all in the Institution. The witness withdrew. VOTE 39—PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE.Mr. D. Coffey called and examined246. Chairman.—You have authority to purchase historical documents?—Yes, to a small extent. How are you restricted in that matter? —Our total vote for that is £79. That is how are we restricted. Actually, during the last few years, the number of documents offered to us worth spending any money on has been very small. We get a large number of presentations as well. 247. What kind of documents are you particularly interested in?—We are particularly interested in wills before the burning of the Four Counts. In the past, for instance, we bought a very large collection of extracts from wills made by the late Sir William Betham. The amount of that sort of thing coming on the market is getting very much smaller. Also, the National Library is buying on a very much larger scale than it was. 248. I do not suppose there is competition really?—No. The National Library would hand over to you any documents that might come within your scope?—We are on very friendly terms with regard to that sort of thing. The witness withdrew. VOTE 61—POSTS AND TELEGRAPHS.Leon Ó Broin called and examined.249. Chairman.—There is a note, number 65, by the Comptroller and Auditor-Genera: “Subhead H.2.—Losses by Default, Accident, etc. The losses borne on the Vote for the year ended 31st March, 1948, amounted to £5,493 19s. 6d. A classified schedule of these losses is set out at page 220. At page 223 particulars are given of 33 cases in which cash shortages or misappropriations amounting to £854 14s. 6½d. were discovered; the sums in question were made good and no charge to public funds was necessary.” Is there an unusual number of these cases?—No, I do not think so. In this particular year we seem to have a large number?—That is true, but I would draw the Committee’s attention to a very useful footnote on page 222, which gives an idea of the amount of business which is transacted in the Post Office and the Committee will see that what has been lost through defalcations is a very small proportion of the total amount of money we handle— “The total number of money orders and postal orders issued during the year was 7,042,000 amounting to a sum of £11,018,000. The total number of parcels dealt with was approximately 10,051,000. The total cash, etc., remittances dealt with by Postmasters, etc., during the year was £42,405,000. The total number of Savings Bank deposits and withdrawals during the year was 1,474,000 and the total amount involved was approximately £15,384,000.” 250. Chairman.—I think the Committee understand that owing to the volume of these operations you will have misappropriations from time to time, but in view of the list which is before us, I think we should perhaps ask a few questions about the type of case. On page 221 we have a case of misappropriation of Savings Bank Accounts in Newtowngore Sub-Office, Carrick-on-Shannon. Could you say over how long a period these fraudulent withdrawals continued?—In September, 1945, a Savings Bank depositor who was requested by letter to forward his Post Office book to the Savings Bank for examination replied that he had left his book in the custody of the sub-post-mistress and was under the impression that she had sent it on to the Savings Bank. That was the first indication we had that anything was wrong, in September, 1945. The defalcations went back to 1939. The trouble in Savings Bank cases is that depositors do not do what we insist upon their doing, namely, to hold the Post Office books themselves and not to leave them in the custody of sub-postmasters. They should send them in once a year for examination. I suppose the sub-postmasters have instructions to that effect?—Yes, they have the most positive instructions to that effect. 251. Deputy Sheldon.—There is no means by which you can check up on it if the depositors are foolish?—That is the position. Chairman.—It is satisfactory that you are able to follow up members of the public who have been fraudulently withdrawing sums. It must be difficult to get after these people?—It is very difficult, but we have a very competent staff. 252. There is a further list of cases on page 223, dealing with losses involving no charge on public funds as the amounts were made good in each instance. Prosecutions took place in all these cases?—In practically every case. We have permission from the Department of Finance in the most exceptional circumstances not to prosecute, but in most cases we prosecute as a matter of course. 253. Regarding the note at the top of page 225, how many investigation officers have you?—About six. Has the number been increased in recent. times?—Yes, it necessarily increases with the expansion of the service. 254. Note 66 by the Comptroller and Auditor General says:— “Subhead T.—Appropriations in Aid. Among the receipts estimated for under this subhead was a sum of £14,680 for staffing of wireless stations. As stated in the account, the amount has not been realised.” 255. We can deal with that on the sub head and will pass on to note 67, which is as follows:— “Stores. A test examination of the store accounts was carried out with generally satisfactory results. In previous reports reference was made to the difficulties arising out of the supply position which involved departure from the normal procedure for the purchase of stores, and in the year under review it was still found necessary in certain cases to divide contracts between contractors on the basis of output and in other cases to place contracts after limited competition.” What is the present position?—We are getting back to normality. 256. Could you say when you will be able to get back to free competition?— Unfortunately, it is still difficult at times to have contracts dealt with in the time agreed upon. I think it would be unwise to venture upon a guess, but things are improving. 257. Chairman.—The note continues:— “As shown in Appendix II, the value of engineering stores held on the 31st March, 1948, was £584,497. Stores other than engineering stores held at that date were valued at £265,872, included in this amount being a sum of £62,407 in respect of stores held for other Government Departments.” 258. How do you stand with regard to insurance in this matter?—We do not insure at all. In accordance with the general principle, we carry our own insurance. 259. I see on page 230 that some of these stores are awaiting repair or condemnation. Could you say what the proportions are? £56,718 is the estimated amount awaiting repair or condemnation. There is an amount for sale also?—The sum shown in brackets represents the amount awaiting condemnation. 260. On what grounds would they be condemned, having deteriorated or having become obsolete?—A combination of both, I imagine—obsolete stores or unusable stores, or they may be just worn out. 261. Note 68 is as follows: “Revenue. A test examination of the accounts of the Postal, Telegraph and Telephone services was carried out with satisfactory results. Sums due for telephone services amounting in all to £50 4s. 8d. were written off during the war as irrecoverable.” 262. Note 69, regarding Post Office Savings Bank accounts, says: “The accounts of the Post Office Savings Bank for the year ended 31st December, 1947, were submitted to a test examination with satisfactory results. As in the two previous years, the figure shown in the accounts in respect of the total interest credited to depositors has for various reasons been estimated but any necessary adjustment will be made in a subsequent year. The interest accrued during the year on securities standing to the credit of the Post Office Savings Bank Fund amounted to £1,390,253 2s. 6d. Of this sum, £765,409 12s. 7d. was paid and credited to depositors in respect of interest, management expenses amounted to £107,030 13s. 9d. and £51,781 5s. 8d. was set aside towards provision against depreciation in the value of securities, leaving a balance of £466,031 10s. 6d. which is shown as disposable for the benefit of the Exchequer in accordance with section 19 (1) of the Finance Act, 1930.” Could you explain to the Committee-perhaps this has been explained on previous occasions—how these sums are arrived at?—I am sure some members of the Committee are aware of the existence of an annual account which is produced by the Department of Finance, an Account of the Post Office Savings Bank Fund. It gives the particulars of the amounts handed over by us to the Department of Finance and indicates what happens to those funds thereafter. There are two or three sub-accounts—one shows the investment of the amount due to depositors and another the interest accrued, charged to the credit of the Department and, against that, the interest paid to depositors, expenses charged, and so forth. It is a detailed account which I think is circulated to Deputies. 263. The note says that the balance is disposed of as shown in Section 19 of the Act of 1930. What are the terms of that, or perhaps that is not a fair question?—I have not a copy of the Act before me. I imagine it says that any balance there, after the payment of interest on deposits and expenses incurred during the year, shall be paid over for the benefit of the Exchequer. 264. Chairman.— Is there a reserve against depreciation, Mr. Wann? Mr. Wann.—Yes, the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs must retain at least ten per cent. of the balance. By law?—Yes, under the Act of 1930. And each succeeding year ten per cent. is added on to this depreciation fund?— Yes, at least ten per cent. In this particular year, the amount was £517,812 and exactly ten per cent. was set aside for depreciation, leaving a balance of £466,031. I understand it is transferred to the Exchequer in the following year. 265. Chairman. —Note 70 reads:— “Post Office Factory. A test examination was applied to the accounts of the Post Office Factory with satisfactory results. Including works in progress on 31st March, 1948, the expenditure on manufacturing jobs during the year amounted to £38,506, expenditure on repair work (other than repairs to mechanical transport) amounted to £22,336, and expenditure on mechanical transport repairs to £5,949.” The new factory is completed?—Yes. 266. How was the capital expenditure paid?—I understand the Board of Works carried the charge for the building. 267. There is no charge against the Post Office?—Not on this Vote. 268. We can now turn to the Vote it self. Under subhead A.2., there is a note on page 217. What was the reason for the unforeseen expenditure in connection with the General Election?—First of all the election was unexpected by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. We had made no provision for it. A General Election creates a spate of postal work for us: we have to employ a considerable amount of extra temporary staff and pay a lot of overtime. 269. Deputy Sheldon.—Subhead E.2.— Conveyance of Mails by Road—shows a very remarkable increase. Were mails carried by the Dublin City mail car services by contract?—By contract, yes. During the year a new contract was entered into?—We had to face up to increased demands by Córas Iompair Éireann for what they were doing for us. During that period charges were going up all round and they asked us for a little more in respect of the work they were doing for us. 270. Chairman.—You are limited in that respect, in any case. Is there any other organisation capable of doing the work or would it involve making contracts with a large number of small contractors? —Of course, we do business not merely with Córas Iompair Éireann but with all the carrying companies and also with a multiplicity of small people in various parts of the country. In the city?—In the city, for many years, as a matter of convenience, we have been employing Córas Iompair Éireann. I should imagine that the difficulty in getting the best terms possible is in not having another competitor there who is prepared to take on the work. I imagine that is what the Post Office is generally up against?—As a matter of fact, we always fight Córas Iompair Éireann very hard in the matter of the contract price. Generally speaking we are satisfied that there is no unreasonable margin of profit accruing to Córas Iompair Éireann from this or any contract. 271. Deputy Sheldon.—If the margin of profit appeared to be too high, you could always set up your own service?— We could always switch to our own, yes. 272. In connection with subhead E.5.— Conveyance of Mails by Air—where there is an increase, of course any increase in this subhead is offset, in a business way, by the increased returns from the service?—Yes, that is so. In this case would the increased returns more than offset the increased expenditure?—Very much so. In this particular year’s account, at any rate, the yield from the airway traffic was very profitable. Chairman.—Could you give us the figures?—I could not give offhand the figures of the actual profit we made but I could indicate the extent to which the traffic has grown. In 1947-48 we paid £72,000. Our estimate for the present year is £250,000. That is payment for airmail traffic. Our receipts will be correspondingly high. 273. It is profitable?—Generally speaking, it has been quite profitable. The effect of devaluation is causing us some little worry in the present year. That is something that may come before you in relation to a future account. 274. In connection with subhead F.— telegraph traffic in general, I suppose, tends to decline?—It is declining again now, yes. It was up considerably during the war and continued at a high level until the last year or so. It is going down now quite remarkably. 275. In connection with subhead G.1., how are bicycles purchased?—Tenders are invited for the supply of bicycles and they are examined. The result is reported to the Government Contracts Committee and, with their approval, contracts are placed. 276. Chairman.—Who is responsible for the Government Contracts Committee, Mr. Wann? Mr. Wann.—It is a Committee of the purchasing departments—Defence, Post Office, Stationery Office and Office of Works. Mr. O Broin.—With an officer of the Department of Finance in the Chair. 277. Chairman.—Are you able to buy direct from the manufacturers?—We are, yes. 278. Deputy Sheldon.—I presume you give a specification. You do not just buy bicycles?—Oh, no. We indicate precisely what we want and make sure we get what we want. Chairman.—And, if they are not up to standard, of course, you have a remedy presumably?—We have. 279.—In connection with subhead G.2., there is a note to the effect that the saving was due to delay in delivery by contractors of goods ordered and to claims not materialising. Is this a particular contractor?—“Delivery by contractors of goods”—I imagine it refers to a number of cases. Does it happen regularly or is this an exception?—It is part of the trouble we had all during the emergency period in getting contractors to supply in time. So that in a particular year you are not able to guarantee that the expenditure will in fact be made?—No, Sir. 280. Have you any sanctions against these contractors?—In the good old times we probably had. Nowadays sanctions are not worth anything. 281.—I think we ought to raise that with the Contracts Committee, Mr. Wann? If it is the case that they are prepared to supply the materials upon which there is obviously a satisfactory return for themselves but, in regard to items on which there is less return, are not inclined to fulfil their agreements, there ought to be some way of dealing with them. 282. Deputy Sheldon.—There are several things I think we could take up with the Contracts Committee. In regard to subhead G.3.—Manufacture of Stamps, etc.—where supplies were not obtainable to such a high extent, does it seriously interfere with the working of the Department or other Departments to which you supply?—Occasionally it does, of course, necessarily. Every day in the week I find myself asking why something has not been done and I am told the reason is that equipment has not arrived, or something of that sort. 283. It is repeatedly happening in the country that forms which one is supposed to be able to get at the Post Office do not arrive and there is long delay. For instance, at the moment I do not know how I stand in connection with the wheat form. I think the date has gone past by which I could put in the form and yet the form has not arrived at the local post office?—Everybody understands that the printing situation has been very difficult for a number of years and we, like everybody else, have suffered thereby. 284. Chairman.—You do all your printing with the Stationery Office?—Yes, that is apart from printing on watermarked paper for stamps, etc. 285. Deputy Sheldon.—In regard to subhead L.1.—Cross-Channel Cable Maintenance—does it mean that no engineering work was carried out on the cross-Channel cables?—I think that is so, yes. The actual work is done by the British Post Office, who have the cable ship and in that particular year no work was done by them on the cables we share in common. 286. Chairman.—How does the matter stand now?—The last payment, as a matter of fact, for this service was in 1944-45. 287. Was there not to have been an improvement or development of these cables? Were you not to lay down additional cables?—Yes, but the charges for them are made against the Telephone Capital account. They do not appear in the Vote. This is just maintenance. 288. Deputy Sheldon.—In regard to subhead L.3.—Contract Work—most of this saving was due to work being done rather late in the year and the accounts have not come in?—Yes. 289. Chairman.—With regard to subhead M.—Telephone Capital Repayments —how does the telephone installation work stand at present?—That is rather a hard question. We have every available man working on telephone installation all over the country and we are making, I think, very satisfactory progress, having regard to the limitations of man-supply and so forth. Last year, we installed more telephones than in any previous year and in the last ten years we went near doubling the number of installations in the whole country. 290. You are installing at a fairly rapid rate at present?—We are, and I am entirely satisfied with our progress, having regard to what I have said about the availability of skilled engineering labour. 291. Are you satisfied that those who have got new installations are getting as good service as was formerly the case?—I always advise my own friends not to ask for a telephone until we can guarantee a better service. I am rather afraid that maintenance has been neglected in recent years, because of the insistence on the installation of new phones, but the demand for new phones has been so clamant that we cannot ignore it. We hope that, as the years pass, we will be able to improve the maintenance service. 292. Deputy Sheldon.—Could you give us some more information with regard to subhead Q.2. dealing with the provision and installation of equipment and operating and maintenance charges, etc., in relation to Civil Aviation and Meteorological Wireless Services? There is a very high saving on the subhead—more than twice the surplus surrendered on the whole Vote?—Yes. The material arrived the following year and had to be paid for. That is the only explanation I can give. It is the same point again of materials not arriving to schedule. Chairman.—The effort either to make up for deficiencies caused by the war or the pressure arising from new developments must mean that you are anxious to place your orders as quickly as possible?—That is so. 293. Deputy Sheldon.—In the Appropriations in Aid, there is an item: Receipts from British Government for staffing of wireless stations. I was wondering if we could have further explanation of that item which shows an estimate of £14,000, but nothing realised?— A question affecting the accounts has been under discussion with the British Post Office and is now well on the way to a solution. It is likely that the Appropriation Account for the current year will see the matter settled conclusively. At the time the Estimate was prepared you could not say when this matter would be settled?—That is so. 294. Chairman.—What wireless stations are in question?—Malin Head and Valentia. 295. With regard to the item for the sale of engineering stores, how are they sold? Is it by tender?—Yes. 296. Have you got back all your staff? —Very nearly. There are a few officers still on loan. 297. With regard to damage to departmental vehicles, do you do your own repair work?—Yes. VOTE 62—WIRELESS BROADCASTING.Leon Ó Broin further examined.298. Deputy Sheldon.—In subhead A.— Salaries, Wages and Allowances—there is a saving of £30,000. The only point I cannot understand is that the saving is stated to have been due to posts for actors and members of the orchestra remaining unfilled, but in subhead C. there is an excess which is said to be due to larger and more expensive music requirements for enlarged orchestras?—During that year, the orchestra underwent an expansion and, as it expanded, we required more music for it We did not fill all the posts that particular year. Opportunities also arose during that year of purchasing music which we availed of in anticipation of what we would require in future years. 299. Chairman.—When you speak of posts for actors, do you refer to actors who are on a contract basis?—We have a panel of actors, a permanent company, in the Station and we were recruiting in this year for that panel. 300. What is the size of the orchestra at present?—Something over 60—61 or 62. That is the main symphony orchestra. There is also a light orchestra with something over 20 players. 301. Do you propose to appoint a permanent conductor for the orchestra?— That is a question of policy I would not like to discuss at the moment. Possibly in time we may do so, but I do not think we have yet reached the stage at which we could make a permanent appointment. 302. Is the cost of the temporary conductors not greater than what it would be if you had a permanent conductor?— That would depend on the sort of permanent conductor you would have. If you had a conductor of very high class he might cost as much as and possibly more than we are paying at the moment for a sequence of excellent conductors who are not actually of the first class. If we are entering the sphere of music seriously, do you not agree that we ought to try to get conductors of the highest class?—The men we have been having are really excellent men; some of them young men who are well on the way to making large international reputations for themselves. 303. Deputy Kitt.—With regard to subhead B. dealing with the cost of daily programmes, including public concerts, could you say what is paid to céilidhe bands which come up from the country?— I could not tell you immediately. 304. Is it a fact that they are not paid enough to cover their travelling expenses and the cost of staying a night in Dublin? I have had a complaint from a céilidhe band which has broadcast and made records, the Aughrim Slopes. Céilidhe Band, who inform me that what they would get for coming to Dublin would not cover these expenses, with the result that they have not sought or accepted any engagement for two or three years? 305. Chairman.—I suppose Radio Éireann could arrange for broadcasts from the particular locality?—Yes. We are doing that more and more; and we are also aiming at making recordings locally instead of bringing artistes to Dublin. 306. There is a reference under subhead C. to the unanticipated purchase of a piano. Was there anything exceptional about that?—I think that was the case of a piano that was offered at a bargain price and we took it. 307. I have heard a complaint about the tone of the pianos at Radio Éireann, but I am not an expert on that?—We have more than one, I can assure the Committee. One cannot always attribute the actual cause of a complaint of that sort to an instrument. It might be due to some defect in the actual transmission. If there are no further questions, that concludes the Vote. Thank you very much, Mr. Ó Broin. The witness withdrew. VOTE 32—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR JUSTICE.Mr. T. J. Coyne called and examined.308. Deputy Sheldon.—On subheads A.2. and A.3., Film Censorship and Censorship of Publications, how did the increase in salaries arise since provision had already been made in the Estimate for consolidation?—I am not sure that I understand the Deputy’s question. The salaries of these officers were actually increased, apart from consolidation, on the grounds that they were underpaid. Representations were made by the Board to the effect that, having regard to the nature of the duties they were performing, they should be better paid. The Minister accepted that view, and the Minister for Finance sanctioned an increase in salary independently of the consolidation increase. 309. Chairman.—The note on subhead A.4. mentions that no claim was received during the year in respect of technical assistance for either the Superior Courts Rules Committee or the Circuit Court Rules Committee. Does that mean that, in fact, no work of that nature was performed during the year?— No. This work is performed by legal draftsmen who are practising barristers. It is a slow, difficult business and they often are dilatory in submitting their claims for payment. The work has not been completed. It is continuously being attended to. We merely pay the legal draftsmen when they submit a claim for payment, and when the claim is supported by the certificate of the Committee that they have done so much work. In these circumstances it seems reasonable to make them a payment on account. We make the payment on account, but in this particular accounting period they do not appear to have put in any claim. And the work is still proceeding?—Yes. 310. Deputy Sheldon.—There is a note to subhead B.—Travelling Expenses —from which one gathers that it is more expensive for officers to use their private cars than cars belonging to the Department?—There are no cars belonging to the Department except police cars. In fact it is usually more expensive for an officer to use his private car than to use a public conveyance, unless he is doing a great deal of travelling, in which case it might be cheaper for him to use his private car. In cases where we permit officers to use their private cars, that is usually done to save time, or, in the case of making inspections, to enable them to make a descent on a place without prior notice. 311. Chairman.—The Department has a discretion in this matter then?—Yes. The heads of Departments are given a certain discretion by the Department of Finance. But that is confined to cases in which there are special investigations or inspections?—Yes. Generally speaking, a public official is expected to use the cheapest mode of transport. That is the general rule. If you allow him to use a more expensive mode you have to be able to justify yourself to the Department of Finance which, as I have said, leaves us a certain amount of discretion in the matter. 312. On subhead D.—Telegrams and Telephones—I take it that all Garda stations now have the telephone installed. I think there used to be a few which had not?—I believe they all have telephone installations now. 313. Deputy Sheldon.—I take it that subhead F.—Film Censorship Equipment —was a special subhead, and that it deals with something for which there was an estimate the year before, but which had not been fulfilled?—That is correct. 314. Chairman.—With regard to the Extra Receipts, where are the fines imposed in the District Courts accounted for?—Fines fall to be disposed of under statute and an Order made thereunder. In certain cases they have to be apportioned as between the Revenue, the Department of Fisheries, the Department of Justice and certain other authorities; but there is a Department of Justice Fines Account into which fines are paid, and in due course they are transferred to the Exchequer. 315. Deputy Sheldon.—Again, on Extra Receipts, I wonder why no estimate was made for fines under the Offences against the State Act. I see that the sum of £1,300 odd was realised, but that no estimate was prepared?—I think that the proceedings of the Special Court were highly conjectural, and that it would be difficult to make an estimate because of that. I will look into the matter specially for the Committee because I do not know the answer offhand. Speaking now purely from recollection, originally, I think, the Special Court imposed fines very rarely, and then latterly fines were more prevalent in blackmarketing cases and in illegal price cases. More of these cases were being brought before the Special Court. I imagine that was all conjectural at the time the estimate was being prepared. That probably is the explanation. If I find there is another explanation, I will send the Chairman a note. VOTE 33—GARDA SIOCHANA.Mr. T. J. Coyne further examined.316. Chairman.—On subhead G.—Barrack Maintenance,—there was a question raised on another Vote by a member of the Committee in regard to accommodation in Garda barracks. Perhaps in the Deputy’s absence, I might put a question to the Accounting Officer in reference to the barracks in Kilkenny. It raises the general question, if married men are staying out, what provision should be made for the accommodation of the unmarried men. I think the suggestion of Deputy Pattison was that accommodation was being provided unnecessarily for married men who were not, in fact staying in the barracks and, therefore, that the plans of barracks ought to have more regard to the fact that only the single men are staying in as a rule. Can that difficulty be got over, or what would be the view of the Department about it?—I do not know what the right answer is, if there be a right answer, but there are the obvious difficulties that you are likely at any given time to have an excess of accommodation in a particular barracks if you have an excess of married men in that particular station. But it is essential. I think, to maintain the mobility of the Force and the availability of the personnel for transfer from one station to another independently of any consideration of the question of accommodation. You must, I think, plan your barracks on the sort of average probabilities; you must provide the sort of accommodation that on the average you are likely to require in a particular station. I imagine that is the principle upon which we have provided barracks throughout the country. If that be so, it may well happen that, in a particular place at a particular time, there is an excess of unmarried or married men which creates a special problem, but I have no reason to suppose that these considerations have not been present to the minds of all concerned in approaching this problem. 317. Could you say what proportion of the Force is married?—I could not say that offhand, but my adviser tells me it would be about 80 per cent. 318. I think it would be relevant then to ask what proportion of the married men would stay in barracks. You are giving them a rent allowance?—Yes, we are. 319. Is that an inducement to the ordinary Guard, when he gets married, to set up house for himself? Would that not tend to make that course attractive to him? I suppose marriage is encouraged?—Yes, that is true. There are in about 470 stations at least one set of married quarters and in other stations there are more, so that not all the married Guards are in receipt of rent allowances. Some provision is made for married quarters. The Guards themselves, I imagine, would be anxious that more elaborate provision would be made. Many of those who live out would be glad. I imagine, to have official quarters, if they were available. 320. They would be available in Dublin, I suppose?—No, hardly at all, I think, in Dublin. 321. Deputy Fitzpatrick.—In rural districts I suppose there is hardly accommodation for more than one married man in any particular barracks? Chairman.—As Deputy Pattison is not here, I suppose I need not pursue the matter further. I have done my duty. 322. Deputy Fitzpatrick.—Would you be able to explain, Mr. Coyne, whether there is accommodation for more than one married man in any of the barracks?—All I can say for certain is that in 470 stations there is at least accommodation for one married couple. Probably in most stations there is not accommodation for more than one. I do not know—I just say probably. I understand the Chairman’s question to be directed to the question of economy. Are we providing single accommodation that will not be required? I think the tendency may be to have fewer stations. It is possible that fewer stations will be required in the future and that might easily solve that problem—if you had a greater concentration of men in a particular place and a less wide distribution of the Force. Chairman.—I think the general feeling is—I am not very conversant with this matter—that the Gardaí as a rule prefer to live outside. Perhaps there is something in Deputy Pattison’s point. He had knowledge of a particular case which I have not got. Perhaps he would have been able to address himself to it more vigorously than I am capable of doing. He raised the matter, anyway. 323. Deputy Fitzpatrick.—On subhead H.—Transport and Carriage—there is a big gap between the grant and the expenditure. Chairman.—There is a note on page 116 relating to that. 324. Deputy Sheldon.—Was there any change? You estimated for a drop of roughly £10,000 in connection with the replacement of transport as compared with the previous year. Did you buy more new cars than the estimated amount covered? You estimated that your replacement of transport would cost £18,900. You had savings on maintenance because you had delivery of new cars earlier. I wondered had you more new cars than you estimated for in the figure of £18,900—in other words, did you get back to the system you had before when you were prepared to spend more on new cars than on maintenance?—I do not think we bought more new cars than we estimated for and the saving was attributable to the cheaper maintenance of the new cars that we did buy. I do not think we bought more new cars than we budgetted for, so to speak. I agree, if I understand you rightly, that the maintenance of new cars is much more economical. That appears to have been reflected in the savings we have been able to effect. The reason I raised this matter is that in the Estimates, when you make a comparison with the preceding year, there appears to have been a change of policy. More money was provided for maintenance than for the replacement of transport, but you seem to have got back to the system of the previous year. You anticipated spending over £7,000 more on maintenance?—Quite so 325. Chairman.—It is suggested that it could have happened owing to the arrangement about repayable advances to officers for the purchase of cars. Could it happen, Mr. Coyne, that arrangements would have been made for the purchase of cars for officers who would repay the cost in due course but who would not, in fact, when the time came, and who would prefer to purchase the car directly themselves? Do they, as a rule, purchase through the Department by way of repayable advances?—What you say could have happened but I have no evidence that it did happen. I think it is more usual for officers, on purchasing cars, to get an advance. I think it is only rarely that an officer purchasing a car does not apply for an advance. Deputy Sheldon is interested in this question and I think you will satisfy the Committee if you let us have a note later on the subject-matter of the question?—I shall certainly do that.* 326. Deputy Sheldon.—On subhead K. —Escort and Conveyance of Children to Industrial Schools and Places of Detention —was there an unusual drop in the number of committals?—I assume that. The number of commitals varies from year to year and I assume from the figures that there was a drop in the number. I have not before me particulars of the actual number of commitals. 327. People are always talking about an increase in juvenile delinquency and I was wondering did this indicate in this year that there had been a drop?—I am afraid all it would indicate is that there would have been fewer commitals. 328. Chairman.—The Dublin City area might not affect the estimate to the extent that the population would seem to suggest, because the expense of transport might not have been material. As regards subhead M.—Compensation—what does that refer to?—It refers to compensation to members of the Force for private property maliciously damaged or destroyed and compensation to members of the public for injuries resulting from accidents in which Garda Síochána vehicles are involved. 329. Deputy Fitzpatrick.—What does subhead N.—Incidental Expenses— cover? Chairman.—There is a note dealing with that matter which says:— “Expenditure is variable. Payments for advertising, expenses of civilian witnesses at Courts of Inquiry and miscellaneous equipment were greater than anticipated and were offset in part by savings on other items.” In the Book of Estimates for the period under review Incidental Expenses included medical fees for attendance on prisoners and civilians in urgent cases; fees to Veterinary Surgeons in cases of animals found wandering; disposal of stray dogs, including services rendered by the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals; hire of rooms in special circumstances (e.g., at fairs); newspapers and advertising; conveyance of Peace Commissioners to take depositions; conveyance of witnesses to identify suspected persons; expenses of civilian witnesses at Courts of Inquiry; photographic requisites; accessories for electric lamps; food for prisoners in Bridewell; employment of female attendants; expenses of Special Inspectors of Weights and Measures; annual subscription to International Police Commission; ammunition and miscellaneous equipment; allowance to Pathologist; and miscellaneous. Out of the total expenditure of £7,507, £5,410 was for ammunition and miscellaneous equipment. Then there is an allowance to the Pathologist and so on?—I think that list is very nearly exhaustive. 330. We have the Local Security Force under subhead O. Is the compensation there determined by statute?—It is, under an Emergency Powers Order made by virtue of statute. 331. Deputy Sheldon.—Under Appropriations in Aid, I was just wondering how it is possible to estimate No. 7 so closely. The estimate was only 9/11 out. Is it possible to forecast these payments accurately?—There is an arrangement with the Department of Local Government to supply us with a figure. The arrangement is that two per cent. of the amount paid into the Road Fund in any financial year is paid over to the Garda Síochána Vote in the next financial year to cover police expenses under the Roads Act of 1920 and the Road Traffic Act of 1933. It is really not an Estimate at all. It is an empirical arrangement. Two per cent. is the amount fixed by agreement between ourselves and the Department of Local Government with the sanction of the Department of Finance. 332. Chairman.—We come then to Extra Exchequer Receipts. These are variable. Where would the fees from weights and measures come in. I presume that the fees for the stamping of bottles is part of that?—As regards the fees payable on bottles, they are payable at the rate of 1/1 per gross in respect of the out put of bottles each month. If the cost of administration is not recovered by means of the fees, the Minister for Industry and Commerce may certify in writing the amount of the difference and thereupon a fee of that amount is payable, in addition to the fee of 1/1 per gross. The Weights and Measures Act, 1928, provides that fees taken by a Special Inspector shall be paid into the Garda Síochána Fund and the Exchequer in such proportion as the Minister for Finance shall direct; and the Minister for Finance has given a certain direction in the matter. 333. What is the direction?—The Minister for Finance has sanctioned the payment into the Reward Fund of an annual sum equal to the amount paid out in rewards to the special inspectors during the year and he has directed that the balance be paid into the Exchequer and shown as an Extra Exchequer Receipt in the Garda Síochána Vote. 334. Deputy Sheldon.—You have just said that the balance is to appear as an Extra Exchequer Receipt. It does not so appear, or is it that there is no balance? Chairman.—A note on that would be sufficient. I should have explained to the Committee, Mr. Coyne, that you have been newly appointed to the position of Secretary and Accounting Officer of the Department. If there are any points arising upon which the Committee would like to have more information, perhaps you would be able to give that fuller information by sending along a note later. I should have congratulated you on your appointment. I hope that you will be very successful in it and that you will enjoy a long tenure of office?—I am obliged to you for your kind observations. I think I can answer the Deputy’s question now. We have been talking, as I understand it, about the fees in connection with bottles under the Weights and Measures Act. 335. Deputy Sheldon.—It is the other fees I am interested in?—The only fees that are in question in the Appropriation Account are fees for the stamping of bottles. The general fees under the Weights and Measures Act do not go into the account or the Estimate at all so far as I know. We are only concerned at the moment with the Appropriation Account in relation to the fees for bottling. If you want information as to what happens generally to the fees under the Weights and Measures Act, I would have to have notice of that question. I assume that they are paid into the Exchequer. 336. Chairman.—Are these bottles not measurements?—They are, but they are not the sole form of weights and measures. They are not the sole commodity required by law to be measured. 337. Deputy Sheldon.—What happens to the other Weights and Measures fees? Chairman.—I take it Mr. Coyne will let us have a statement about these Weights and Measures fees vis-á-vis the Garda Síochána Reward Fund.* 338. Deputy Sheldon.—At the top of page 118 there is a note in relation to the purchase of a landau for ceremonial use. Was that for some special occasion?—It was. This landau was used by the President. I think it has since been sold. VOTE 34—PRISONS.Mr. T. J. Coyne further examined.339. Chairman.—There is a note, number 36, on page XVI, which reads:— “The statement of the manufacturing and farm accounts appended to the appropriation account has been examined, and local test examinations of the conversion books and other records dealing with manufacturing operations have been carried out with satisfactory results.” 340. That is by way of information. I think we may pass on now to the actual Vote. Under subhead B. the estimated cost per head of victualling prisoners is estimated at £23 7s. 2d. Have you any figure to show what the present cost would be?—I have no figure after 1947-48. It is in view of the increases that have taken place that, I think, on these Votes dealing with institutions, the Committee should have the information as to the actual cost?—My attention has been drawn to the fact that, in the Estimates for the current year, we estimate that the cost of feeding the prisoners is £28 13s. 4d. a head. 341. That is a substantial increase. Is it as a result of better fare or because of an increase in the prices of what they were getting before?—I do not think there has been any substantial change in the dietary. I think it is due to increased cost. 342. With regard to subhead D.—Medicines, Surgical Instruments, etc.—does this subhead not, as a rule, cover the supply of medicine and surgical instruments to other institutions, because the Borstal Institution at Clonmel is mentioned particularly here?—It does cover the supply of medicine. The Borstal which was temporarily housed in Cork was transferred to Clonmel early in 1947. The Institution at Cork was then re-opened as a prison. In general, medicines used in prison are compounded, so far as is possible, by the Prison Officers. However, this subhead is intended to cover drugs and surgical appliances and medicines required for the prison service generally, including St. Patrick’s, Clonmel. 343. I see here in the note with regard to subhead L.—Telegrams and Telephones —that expenditure has an upward tendency. Is it that the habit of telephoning has become accentuated or has there been an increase of business?—There might have been an increase of business because the telephone habit was more prevalent. It is very convenient, and often essential, to transact business by telephone when you are required to supply information at short notice. Deputy Fitzpatrick.—There is no danger of allowing a telephone for the use of prisoners, I suppose? 344. Chairman.—With regard to subhead. M.—Maintenance of Criminal Lunatics in District Mental Hospitals— would the detention of these persons be for long periods?—Of criminal lunatics? Chairman.—Yes?—Very long periods, I think. Perhaps I may be permitted to read the relevant portion of the note I have here. After defining the term “criminal lunatic” which includes (1) persons found guilty but insane; (2) persons found insane and incapable of pleading and (3) persons who become insane while undergoing sentence, the note goes on:— “Such prisoners are transferred either to Dundrum Criminal Lunatic Asylum or to a District Mental Hospital. Each case is referred to the Inspector of Mental Hospitals and we invariably act on his recommendation as to the institution to which the prisoner should be transferred. When transferred to District Mental Hospitals the Prisons Vote becomes liable for the cost of the maintenance of the person therein. In the case of persons found guilty but insane, or insane and incapable of pleading, this liability continues during the whole period of their detention, but, in the case of persons who become insane while serving a sentence, the liability continues only during the duration of the sentence.” It is quite clear that we have, for very long periods, so-called criminal lunatics as a charge on our Vote. They may be there for the whole of their natural life. If they are persons serving a fixed term, we cease to be liable on the completion of their sentence. We are only liable for the duration of their sentence. 345. Could you say how many of them are in the District Mental Hospitals?— There would appear to be 146—of course, of different types and for different periods. The figure for the whole country appears to be 146. 346. Deputy Kitt.—Subhead N. relates to gratuities to prisoners. What kind of gratuity do prisoners get, as a rule?— First of all, prisoners who refuse work do not get any gratuity. For ordinary prisoners, that is, prisoners who are sentenced to terms of imprisonment of two years or under, the gratuity is at the rate of 1d. a day. The maximum gratuity payable to an ordinary prisoner does not exceed 30/-. Then, convicts are treated somewhat differently, provided their conduct, and so forth, is good. They get gratuities at the following rates—for the first year of sentence, 2/- a month; for the second year of sentence, 3/- a month; for the third year of sentence, 4/- a month and, for the fourth and subsequent years, 5/- a month, subject to a certain maximum. 347. Chairman.—Subhead O. refers to Contributions to Discharged Prisoners’ Aid Societies. The fixed sum is not on the basis of a regular contribution each year, then?—I think, actually, that we have for some years past given a Grant-in-Aid of a fixed sum to these Institutions or Associations. 348. The word “societies” is used here, so there is more than one society, apparently, dealing with the problem?—At the time in question, there was a so-called Irish Borstal Association and the Dublin Catholic Male Discharged Prisoners’ Aid Society. 349. Could you say if the farms, mentioned on page 121, are able to supply the prisons with all the farm produce that is necessary?—We cannot do that in Dublin but, generally speaking, all the available ground that is not required for prison purposes and recreation is utilised for the production of food. That is the position at Portlaoighise Prison and at Sligo Prison. At Portlaoighise there is a farm of 30 acres and at Sligo there is one of five acres. In each of these prisons all the vegetables used in the preparation of meals for prisoners are produced on the prison farms. The surplus is sold to the general public. In the so-called Borstal Institution, St. Patrick’s Clonmel, we also have a garden which we are just bringing under cultivation. No doubt it will supply the vegetables for St. Patricks; probably it is doing so at the present time. The short answer to the question is that Portlaoighise and Sligo do produce all the agricultural produce they use-not live stock, of course, though pig rearing is carried on in Portlaoighise— but I understand that the other prisons do not. Chairman.—Thirty acres does not give a good deal of scope does it, Deputy Sheldon? Deputy Sheldon.—No. 350. Chairman.—Then we have Appropriations in Aid. There are notes at the top of page 121. There seems to be a fairly substantial reduction there in the amount realised, as compared with the Estimate. One would have the feeling that in this particular matter there would not be over-estimation, but there must be some particular reason. Is there?—The explanation is, in part, that the prison population during the accounting period was lower than had been expected with the result that there was a lesser quantity of bread, clothes and boots required. Consequently we got less for the bread, clothes and boots that were produced. 351. You charge up the cost of the bread or clothing that is supplied to the prison?—Yes. The smaller prison population affected the supply of clothing and in the making up of the material that was on hands we did not make the profit that we had anticipated. Perhaps it is not right to call them profits but the same amount was paid for. So if you had a larger number of prisoners, supposing they were producing the same amount roughly, you would have an increase in receipts. That is what it amounts to?—Yes. VOTE 35—DISTRICT COURT.Mr. T. J. Coyne further examined.352. Chairman.—In regard to the note on subhead A., dealing with Salaries, Wages and Allowances, has this matter of the District Court clerks been settled? —I am sorry to say it has not been settled but it is in course of settlement, I hope. 353. The saving on subhead B.— Travelling Expenses—is stated to be mainly due to the non-payment within the year of the increased commuted travelling, etc., allowances to Justices. Why was not the payment made?—The commuted allowances involves the payment of an annual sum or a lump sum payment instead of separate payments for individual journeys. In particular cases this involves prolonged correspondence between the Justice, the Department of Justice and the Department of Finance to settle what would be a reasonable commuted allowance which must necessarily be based on an estimate of the amount of travelling to be done. The Judge or Justice holds one view of the mileage he is likely to do in a year. Our Department may have another view and then we have to put the matter to the Department of Finance. I assume that the matter was unsettled by the end of the financial year and that the Judge or Justice concerned did not get his commuted allowance until the next accounting period. Do you propose to make an arrangement with each Justice individually or will there be a standard rate?—Certain subsistence or travelling allowances have been sanctioned by the Minister for Finance. They have been fixed by the Minister for Justice and sanctioned by the Minister for Finance. Some of the Justices who want to avoid the necessity of vouching each separate journey, have asked us to make a commuted allowance to relieve them of the trouble of putting in separate claims and vouching for each separate journey. We are very glad to do that if we can reach accommodation with the Justices concerned because it saves us a lot of accounting difficulties. There are, however, only a minority— sixteen—of the Justices with a commuted allowance. The majority simply vouch their travelling expenses. 354. Is that similar to the arrangement for Garda officers or do you say it is a new arrangement?—In so far as Garda officers have commuted allowances, it would be similar. VOTE 36—CIRCUIT COURT.Mr. T. J. Coyne further examined.355. Deputy Sheldon.—Arising out of item 4 of the Appropriations in Aid, is it just a coincidence that there was such closeness in estimation and in the amount realised? Surely you could not tell in advance if a new publichouse is being opened?—The fee is 2/6, filing charge. It used to be paid to the Clerk of the Crown and Peace. It is now collected by the Revenue Commissioners with the intoxicating liquor licence and it is then paid over to the Circuit Court Vote. The accuracy in estimation is due to the fact that the Revenue Commissioners tell us what they are going to pay us. VOTE 37—SUPREME COURT AND HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE.Mr. T. J. Coyne further examined.356. Chairman.—What is the particular significance of subhead F.— Expenses of High Court?—Heretofore it was so rare, as I think to be almost unknown, for a High Court Judge to have any travelling expenses except as a member of a Commission or in some capacity of that kind but the Courts of Justice Act of 1936 established the High Court on Circuit which necessitated High Court Judges going out on Circuit. The subhead covers the travelling expenses and accommodation of the Judges on Circuit and the expenses of the Registrar and other court officials in the appeal towns. VOTE 38—LAND REGISTRY AND REGISTRY OF DEEDS.Mr. T. J. Coyne called.No question. The witness withdrew. The Committee adjourned. |
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