Committee Reports > List of Committees > Dáil > 1948 > Committee of Public Accounts > Report - Appropriation Accounts 1946 - 1947

MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA

(Minutes of Evidence)

Dé Céadaoin, 9ú Meitheamh, 1948.

Wednesday, 9th June, 1948.

The Committee sat at 11 a.m.

Mr. J. Maher(An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste), Mr. C. S. Almond, Miss Maire Bhreathnach and Mr. J. Mooney(An Roinn Airgeadais) called and examined.

VOTE 10—PUBLIC WORKS AND BUILDINGS (Resumed).

Mr. J. Connolly recalled and examined.

246a. Deputy Sheldon.—I was wondering was it not considered that a Supplementary Estimate should be introduced on subhead A., as one item exceeded the Estimate by 50 per cent.? There was, in fact, an excess of £27,000 which is more than 100 per cent of the original grant. It could not be covered by virement.

Mr. Maher.—The amount of the excess is £27,000 odd but the total Vote is in the neighbourhood of £1,000,000, and if you take the excess as being a percentage of the total Vote it is not very large. For that reason, unless the amount was very considerable the Department of Finance would not consider that a Supplementary Estimate was necessary.

Chairman.—It is, in fact, less than 3 per cent. of the total Vote. The particulars of the purposes of it are referred to in the note and are set out in detail in the report itself.

247. Deputy Sheldon.—On page 26, there is a reference to buildings not appropriated to public departments—No. 5 Merrion Square. Dublin. For what purpose is this?—The Institute for Advanced Studies, which is a separate institute and is not under departmental control, as far as I know. It and the purchase of the legation to the Vatican were the causes of the excess in the Vote.

248. Deputy Briscoe.—The excess in the subhead—subhead A.?—Yes.

249. Chairman.—The original grant on subhead B. was £500,000 and expenditure was £216,021 less than granted. The explanation is that the saving was mainly due to the fact that progress on certain works provided for was generally less than anticipated, being to a great extent dependent on factors which cannot be controlled by the Commissioners.

Deputy Sheldon.—Have there been any developments about the provisions of married quarters for the customs people at Lifford? I think that there was some difficulty with regard to an Electricity Supply Board installation interfering with the site originally chosen?—That difficulty has been got over. I could not tell you just how the position stands at the moment with regard to Lifford specifically, but whatever the difficulties with regard to the Electricity Supply Board were, they have been got over.

250. You could not say if there is any prospect of a start being made on that particular item?—Our intention is to proceed with it and we got an exchange site from the Electricity Supply Board. In other words, in giving them what we had we got an alternative at their expense.

251. I suppose that most of the difficulties are due to the fact that there is a lack of supplies and building materials?— In some cases, not always. For in building, generally the main difficulty is, not to get supplies, but to get a contractor who will undertake the work at a fair price.

252. It is a bit depressing to read all these pages of new works?—Not all are due to that. There are other reasons. The Department may change its mind or there may be other obstacles.

253. Chairman.—As to subhead D.2— Central Furniture Stores—the original grant was £1,000 and the expenditure amounted to £1,576. There is a note: “The value of stocks held in the Central Furniture Stores at 31st March, 1947, was £6,490 12s. 2d.”

Deputy Briscoe.—How is the stock of furniture of that type checked and controlled when it is out in other Departments? Is there some record of the amount of furniture available and is there a writing-off of furniture which becomes broken, worn out or disposed of?—Of course furniture, when requisitioned by a Department, is charged out to that Department and it is noted. As regards taking stock of furniture in the different Departments, such as an annual or triennial stocktaking, that is not done.

254. Do you not think it would be a good idea to know to what extent the State has furniture? A considerable amount of furniture was handed over to Government Departments and every year considerable additions have been made by way of purchase or building in of equipment?—The matter was considered on several occasions. The last time it was considered we went into it in some detail and it was felt that the expense involved in taking, say, an annual stocktaking of what furniture was in offices throughout the State would not be justified.

255. How is a check kept on the existence of that furniture, that the furniture in fact remains there and does not disappear?—We do not check, nor do we take it as a responsibility. The head of each Department is supposed to be responsible for everything within his Department.

256. Chairman.—In fact, you only act as a warehouse?—If repairs are wanted or if they want anything taken away, we do that. We make a periodical check to see if there is too much furniture in a Department. Suppose 30 people are transferred from one Department to another, that should throw up a residue of desks and chairs. In that way we keep a spot check. Our men are in and out of Departments constantly and, if there is anything that calls for attention they bring it to our attention.

257. I am sure you are notified when there is a considerable increase in staff, but are you notified when there is a considerable decrease?—Not necessarily.

258. How then are you inspired to make these checks in order to discover if there is a decrease?—We are not inspired, nor are we informed excent from a casual visit by a furniture clerk who may be there for something else. We do however, try to keep a general watching brief on the conditions.

259. Deputy Briscoe.—What you mean is that once you have supplied a Department with its requirements in furniture you do not keep a list of the amount of furniture in any particular Department; you do not know to-day the quantity of furniture in any particular Department? —We do not, but we could, of course, give an inventory of what had been supplied over a certain number of years. We do not, however, take responsibility for the fact that the furniture is there once we have delivered it to Departments.

260. I suggest that this matter should be given some consideration. There should be some control as to whether the furniture supplied is there, in the first place, and, secondly, I think we ought to know the capital value of the furniture in all Government Departments. Here in this House we find ourselves with rather a short supply. I recollect one time when we had to lend chairs for an international conference and Deputies had to stand around. I am sure that if there was a proper stocktaking sufficient chairs could have been found in various Departments without discommoding Deputies?— We had lots of chairs, but they were not of the quality we wanted for that particular conference.

261. Will you give the matter some thought with a view to seeing how the Department of Finance and yourselves would regard this? Army stores and other stores are checked with the greatest of care and furniture to-day is a very valuable commodity?—We check our own stores with great care.

262. Chairman.—I do not think the Deputy’s statement with regard to the value of furniture applies to furniture I saw in Government Departments.

Deputy Dockrell.—I think the Accounting Officer said that each individual Department is responsible for its own furniture and that he has a very good idea of what furniture is there. We are not just a trading concern taking the cash value of the furniture into account, like a hotel.

Deputy Briscoe.—I do not approach it from that point of view, but from the point of view that the Board of Works must supply Departments with their needs. Apparently, the Board does not make a check as to whether the equipment is there. They do not record what has been handed over to a Department over a number of years.

Deputy Dockrell—I submit that the Accounting Officer has explained it by saying that that is the duty of each individual Department.

Mr. Connolly.—Deputy Briscoe might seem to imply that, when we get a requisition from a Department for so many desks and chairs, we supply these without investigation. Actually, we try to make sure that there are not spare desks and chairs available in that Department before we supply the additional ones. In other words, the head of a Department just cannot say: “Send around ten desks and ten chairs.”

Deputy Briscoe.—That does not say that you have kept a record over ten years of the number of desks and chairs that have been supplied to that Department.

263. Chairman.—I think the Commissioners do keep a record of the equipment which they supply to the several Departments?—We keep records of the requisitions, of course. We do not take an annual stocktaking as a commercial firm would and we do not think the expense involved in doing so would be justified.

264. Deputy Briscoe.—Supposing you were asked how many desks were supplied to a particular Department since the Board of Works started to supply, could you say how many desks were supplied?

Chairman.—Have you a record of the equipment supplied to any particular Department over a particular period of time?—Yes.

265. I suppose the officer responsible to the Accounting Officer for the proper care and control of furniture in the other Department would be the Establishment Officer?—Yes.

266. Deputy Briscoe.—Would Mr. Almond give his view?

Mr. C. S. Almond.—The risk of loss of this furniture is practically negligible. A civil servant could not walk out with a chair or a table. The only risk of loss is damage, and whenever an article is damaged there is usually a requisition almost immediately to the Board of Works to have the damage repaired. If you ask for an annual stocktaking it would probably last over the whole year. The quantity of furniture and equipment in Government Departments is enormous and by the time the stocktaking would be completed the best part of a year would be gone, so it would be necessary to employ an inspection staff or stocktaking staff practically the whole year round. Speaking off-hand, I do not think the expense of that staff would be justified unless it could be shown that there is considerable loss at present, and I do not think it possible there could be any loss.

267. Chairman.—Would there be any value in having a survey at ten-yearly periods?

Mr. Connolly.—If you look at this from a commercial point of view, every check is desirable. I agree with Mr. Almond that there is no justification for any fear of misappropriation or misuse of furniture. First of all, the Department is manned by responsible people and it is not easy to take furniture out. You cannot take out a carpet or a desk under your coat. We know that the offices have messengers and porters at the doors. Personally, I do not think there is the slightest danger of misappropriation. With regard to seeing that the proper use is made of the furniture, our men are in Departments periodically. They may not be in a Department for a month or two, but will be there some time or other. When our men go round to see the Establishment Officer or officer concerned, he knows what the state is there and he has to justify his demand. If there are repairs, they are sent over to the workshop and the repairs are done. I do not think there would be any justification for going to any expense as regards checking.

268. I take it that your general attitude is that the risk of theft or of wanton damage by neglect would not justify it? —That is definitely our opinion, after giving it consideration on two occasions.

269. Deputy Sheldon.—On J.4, have you been able to make purchases since then?—Yes, we have a considerable number of machines on order at present, probably over £100,000 worth. Some of them are coming in, and generally the position has improved from that point or view.

270. Deputy Sheldon.—On J.7, why were less surveys undertaken?—It was partly because our staff position did not allow us to go any faster with the service and partly because the survevs are, on the whole, fairly well ahead of the prospects of work.

271. Deputy Dockrell.—On the Appropriations in Aid, regarding K.6, on page 27, what was the reason for the excess?— The main reason was that we had a very much increased number of people visiting Bourn Vincent Park during that particular year. For a number of years the tolls taken there were very low, but in that year they jumped from £527 the previous year to £1,121. Unfortunately, that revenue will disappear now, as visitors are getting into the park free.

272. I thought it might have been poor estimation?—No. In the Bourn Vincent Memorial Park, for 1943-44 our actual takings were £234, the following year they were £222, in 1945-46 they were £527 and then we jumped to £1,121. Circumstances might have resulted in the receipts being only £200.

273. Was it due to the increased tourist trade?—That is the explanation of it. We also had another windfall in the shape of the Phoenix Park motor parking facilities being availed of. During the petrol restrictions there was no motor car parking there for a number of years. In the particular year we are dealing with, there was £526 for parking fees. These two items really made up more than the surplus that we achieved.

VOTE 11—HAULBOWLINE DOCKYARD.

Mr. J. Connolly further examined.

274. Chairman.—There is a surplus to be surrendered of £453 18s. 11d., very largely derived from the sale of stores.

Deputy Sheldon.—Was it not expected that those stores would be sold?—When we were making our Estimate it was not expected that the stores would be sold and than it was decided to let them go. We had to clear up a lot of scrap there.

Chairman.—Thank you, Mr. Connolly.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 22—VALUATION AND BOUNDARY SURVEY.

Mr. C. C. McElligott called and examined.

275. Chairman.—What is the explanation of the item: “Allocated from Vote for Civil Service Remuneration, £943 11s. 2d.”?—It is included in the increased remuneration of civil servants and is given under Vote 76 on page 271.

276. Deputy Sheldon.—Can you say what the exact figure of the excess due to the increased remuneration was?—I cannot give the exact figure. That was the excess necessary to meet the sum not granted.

VOTE 23—ORDNANCE SURVEY.

Mr. C. C. McElligott further examined.

277. Chairman.—The Comptroller and Auditor-General has no note on this Vote. On subhead B., the note states that “the savings are due to the recall of staff from field work”?—Owing to demands made at the head office we sometimes have to recall our men from field and survey work. When that happens there is a saving in travelling expenses.

278. On subhead F. the note states that “in connection with the transfer of the telephone to the automatic system delay occurred in furnishing rental, etc., accounts, and consequently a saving arises.” That is not. in fact, a real saving?—No.

279. It is a holding over from one year to another.

280. Deputy Sheldon.—I observe that “the demand for maps increased considerably ”?—The demand has still an upward tendency.

281. Deputy Dockrell.—What is the reason for that?—After the cessation of war, and with the increase in tourist traffic, there were large demands for our maps. The demand was also due to increased building, engineering work and schemes of all sorts by the Government and by the public. The public look for our maps in connection with these things.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 21—STATIONERY AND PRINTING.

Mr. J. B. Whelehan called and examined.

282. Chairman.—The Comptroller and Auditor-General has no note on this Vote, so that I think the Committee may pass to the subheads.

Deputy Sheldon.—Following on the point that was raised on an earlier Vote about furniture, I note that, in the case of this Department, a typewriter got lost. I wonder what sort of a check the Stationery Department keeps on type-writers?—It will be appreciated that the check that we would have to execute would be nothing at all comparable to what would be essential in the case of the Board of Works. Our supply of machinery is limited. We have a periodic census taken, and in Dublin we visit the Departments to ascertain the condition of the machines. We have a man who goes around. In the country we are always able to check up because we ask for the numbers of the machines and they have to return them. If there is a demand for a new machine we have to be satisfied that the old machine is simply uneconomic before we will replace it. The other machinery that we have is of a very limited nature. We have a Hollerith machine. That would not be easily transferable nor could it easily get lost. There are a few dictaphones in use and a little calculating machinery. That is about all that we would have.

283. Chairman.—In contra-distinction to the Office of Public Works you do make a periodic census?—Yes, but that is an easy matter with us.

284. Deputy Sheldon.—The only point is that the typewriter was lost. It should not be a very easy thing to take a typewriter out of a Government Department any more than a chair. Was it an ordinary typewriter or a portable one?

Chairman.—I see the value of it is £10.

Mr. Whelehan.—It was not a new machine. It was an ordinary typewriter. We went to considerable trouble about it. As a matter of fact it had been lost for some years before we gave way.

285. Chairman.—Before you abandoned hope?—It could not be traced by the police.

286. Deputy Dockrell.—Are the typewriters ever sent out for repairs?—No. We have our own repair shop. We did not find it quite economic to send them out.

286a. Chairman.—Are you able to keep the repair shop going?—With difficulty at the moment, because of the short supply of mechanics and the fact that the Department of Finance is rather severe with regard to the remuneration of mechanics. Mechanics, as I have said, are in short supply. The Department of Finance does its job and sees that it gets the best service it can at the lowest possible rate.

287. What I was anxious to know was whether you had sufficient work to keep the repair shop going?—We have plenty of work.

288. Deputy Briscoe.—Are you in a position to say how many typewriters there are in State use?—I can give that information to the Committee, but I just cannot give the number now.

289. So that, contrary to the practice of the Board of Works, you do keep a stock list?—We have a list of the machines in every Garda station and in the Post Offices and other places in the country that have typewriters.

290. Are these typewriters the property of your Department or do you simply supply them and make a charge to a Department?—We regard these as the property of the Stationery Office.

291. Chairman.—And each Department is responsible for their safe custody?— Yes, and we put it to the trouble of going to the Department of Finance to get a write-off if anything happens.

292. What officer in a particular Department would be responsible for the safe keeping of these machines? I take it that the Accounting Officer of each Department would, nominally, be responsible, but there must be some officer whose particular duty it would be to account for the typewriters?—In each of the large Departments there is a clerk of stationery and a superintendent of typists. These two officers would be primarily responsible.

293. Deputy Briscoe.—I would like the Committee to note the practice of this Department with a view to considering the non-existence of the practice in the other Department.

294. Chairman.—We can discuss that in Committee. On subhead F.4— Printing, etc., for Registration Officers under Electoral and Juries Acts—the note states that “the saving there is due chiefly to the fact that certain accounts proper to 1946-47 did not come in course of payment within the financial year.” The saving on the subhead is £616 19s. 5d.

Deputy Sheldon.—So that it is not a true saving. It is just a carry-over.

295. Chairman.—Yes, and that applies, to some extent, to the saving on subhead F.5. Subhead F.6—Preparation and Publication of Oireachtas Handbook—I take it the £5 there is merely a token grant? —Yes.

296. Was the publication of the Oireachtas Handbook not proceeded with? —No. It was suspended by direction of the Minister for Finance for the time being.

297. Deputy Briscoe.—In the past did the person who compiled the handbook benefit by the sales of the volume?—No. The compiler did not benefit by sales. There was a grant sanctioned by the Department of Finance for the work of the editor and the printing and publication of the handbook. We sold as many copies of it as we could.

298. Chairman.—It has been the practice, I think, to issue a new edition of the handbook after every general election. Is that practice to be resumed? It is an edition that is most valuable.

Deputy Briscoe.—I wonder whether the withdrawal of the publication had reference to a dispute with the editor of the handbook who probably got nothing for months?—Not that I am aware of.

299. Deputy Brady.—What is the reason for the discrepancy between the amount granted and the expenditure in the case of subhead G—grants to periodicals published in Irish and newspapers publishing current news in Irish?—The note in that case savs that provision was made for the payment of a grant to a paper which was not published. That was really the significant saving and would be in the nature of £1,000. The promoters who had got the approval of the Minister for Finance for their project did not proceed with it. The remainder is accounted for by the fact that another journal ceased publication during that year.

300. Deputy Briscoe.—With regard to subhead M—Appropriations in Aid—on examining Vote 23. Ordnance Survev. we find that a substantial amount of money came in from the sale of maps, and I see under this subhead a sum of £1,900 in respect of the sale of Ordnance Survey maps. Does this Department not supply the Ordnance Survey maps to the Ordnance Survey?—No.

301. They print their own?—The Ordnance Survey print their maps and we sell them to the public. The Ordnance Survey are paid, the money being recovered from us.

302. Is this amount of Ordnance Survey maps purchased by the Stationery Office from the Ordnance Survey included in their sales?

Chairman.—I think the position is that all the maps which the Stationery Office purchase from the Ordnance Survey are included in the Ordnance Survey sales, but the Ordnance Survey, in addition to selling to the Stationery Office, sell to the general public and to the people who make special inquiries?—Through a limited number of agents.

303. Deputy Briscoe.—Included in subhead L is the cost of the maps purchased from the Ordnance Survey and included in their statement of sales is the cost, so that if we add the amount realised to the two Departments it would appear that some sales are being duplicated?—We, as agents, sell for the Ordnance Survey. In the Appropriations in Aid there is: “Sale of Ordnance Survey Maps—estimated £1,600 and realised £1,943.” That represents cost and profit to the sales office of the Stationery Office on the Ordnance Survey maps.

Deputy Briscoe.—That solves my problem.

304. Chairman.—That raises another point. Do you purchase the maps from the Ordnance Survey on the same terms as the Ordnance Survey would supply them to these agents you mentioned?— Yes.

305. So that you can, as a Department, make a profit on the sale of these maps? —Yes.

306. The £1,900 is not profit. It is receipts?—Gross receipts.

307. Deputy Briscoe.—I understood that was a profit?—Cost of maps is included and I could not say offhand how much of that sum would represent purchase or cost.

308. With regard to the stock in hands. all through the difficult years the Stationery Office had great difficulty in securing adequate supplies at what would be the originally estimated prices of paper. Could the Controller say what is the position of the present stock in relation to the recent difficult years?—In the case of Subhead I—Paper—there was a Supplementary Estimate for £15,000. There was an effort there to build up stocks when paper came on the market, but that effort was offset to a considerable extent by increases in the price of paper which went up by approximately 2d. per 1b., and in some cases more, so that we did not build up such a reserve of paper stocks as we had anticipated. There was another reason also—there was an increase in printing, in the quantities printed. During the emergency, we had restricted the quantities printed to the minimum. The £76,000 worth of paper stocks on hands on 31st March, 1947, would represent almost a normal stock. We felt early in that year that we should build up our stocks because we knew the market was going to rise. A sum of £80,000 or £85,000 would perhaps represent the normal stock at the moment. The position at the moment is that we are getting supplies. During the emergency, our stocks were depleted.

309. Chairman.—The point which Deputy Briscoe was concerned to bring out was whether you anticipated that this stock would have to be written down within an appreciable period?—Certainly not that.

310. In fact, it is below cost or below present prices?—Yes, the big bulk would be below the present market price.

311. Deputy Briscoe.—Could the Controller explain the note with regard to the non-inclusion in this statement of Oireachtas publications?—They would be volumes of debates, Bills and Acts—all publications which emanate from the proceedings of the Oireachtas. These are not included. It would lead to a fictitious presentation of the position because you could not estimate their real value. You could not say whether they had merely a waste value or some real value potentially or, perhaps, historically.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 40—CHARITABLE DONATIONS AND BEQUESTS.

Mr. J. S. Martin called and examined.

312. Chairman.—We have a new Accounting Officer in the person of Mr. Martin. We are glad to welcome him here and I am sure he will have an easy passage.

Deputy Sheldon.—Could Mr. Martin say whether the rate of charitable bequests is increasing or decreasing?—It is increasing. The number of bequests has gone up by over 50 per cent. in the past ten years. I had occasion recently to take a census, so to speak, of the charitable bequests contained in wills and I found that there has been a progressive increase year after year.

313. Chairman.—Is the nature of the bequests tending to become more varied or narrower?—I should say that they are what one might call religious. The majority of the bequests are bequests for Masses and I would not say that there is any particular variation in the objects of the other charitable bequests.

314. These bequests might be described as being for private purposes. Is there any increase in the number of bequests for public purposes?—I could not answer that offhand but, giving an opinion, I should say no.

315. Deputy Sheldon.—What I had in mind were bequests to hospitals?—The majority of the bequests are for the benefit of various charitable organisations catering for the poor. I can, however, recall one or two very large bequests in wills during the years for hospitals, but they were Dublin hospitals.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 43—DUNDRUM ASYLUM.

Dr. G. W. Scroope called and examined

316. Deputy Briscoe.—As regards this Vote, I think that the Estimate has always been lineball with the expenditure? —Yes.

317. Deputy Sheldon. There is always, of course, a Supplementary Estimate which corrects any error in the original Estimate.

Deputy Briscoe.—That is also very small.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 51—NATIONAL GALLERY.

Dr. G. J. Furlong called and examined.

318. Deputy Briscoe.—I think when Dr. Furlong was before us on the last occasion I asked him whether any effort was being made to provide better lighting in the National Gallery. Dr. Furlong at that time indicated that he had the matter in mind?—Artificial lighting has been installed in one room already. Artificial lighting is in process of being put in. One room has been completed and the other rooms will be done as soon as money is made available for them.

319. Chairman.—That is not precisely your responsibility?—No, it would not come under this. It would be carried out by the Board of Works.

320. Deputy Briscoe.—I think on the last occasion Dr. Furlong agreed with me that the lighting in the National Gallery did not show the pictures there to the best advantage and that there were shadows and shines. I think he agreed with me that some alteration should be made?—All the rooms on the ground floor which we use have side lighting. As the pictures have to be glazed it is impossible to get rid of reflection. The only way in which you could avoid that reflection would be by leaving the glass out. As the gallery is not air conditioned this could not be done. The National Gallery in London is being air conditioned at the present time. I might add that the trouble with regard to reflection does not arise on our top floors where the lighting is satisfactory.

321. Deputy Briscoe.—Is there any prospect of our sir conditioning our gallery here?—The gallery would be very pleased if that were done.

322. Deputy Dockrell.—It would be a very expensive process?—Not necessarily. I asked the man about the lighting when he was doing the electricity and he gave me a rough estimate of the cost. I cannot remember at the moment what the actual figure was. I do know that it is quite high for the London Gallery out then that is an enormous building. The cost there runs into £100,000. Ours, of course, is a much smaller gallery.

Chairman.—This actually has nothing to do with your Vote. I might add that the National Gallery is not the only public building that requires air conditioning.

Deputy Briscoe.—I am a constant visitor to the gallery and so are many of my friends. It is of importance that the valuable collection of pictures we have should be shown to the best advantage. I think it would be bad husbandry on the part of the National Gallery if everything possible was not done to give students and others an opportunity of examining these pictures in the best light.

Chairman.—I am quite in favour of that but the National Gallery has none of the modern amenities in regard to air conditioning and lighting.

Deputy Sheldon.—This is hardly a matter for this Committee. Surely, it comes under another Vote.

323. Deputy Briscoe.—Could we have some further explanation under subhead B.1 in regard to purchases as distinct from repair?—During the year 1946-47 we made five different purchases—a pastel portrait of Yeats, a portrait of Gilbert Stuart, a medallion, a picture by Robert Fagan, an Irish artist who worked in Italy. He was not a professional painter. He was an amateur. He never sold his pictures. We also purchased a portrait of the Duke of Tyrconnel from the Dowager Countess of Gormanston. Those were all the purchases in the year 1946-47.

324. Chairman.—They amounted to £785?—The purchases only amounted to £494 18s. 0d. The balance was spent on repairing and glazing.

325. And the balance in the Grant-in-Aid amounts to £1,395?—That will be accumulated to next year.

326. I assume it is your practice to accumulate a balance in that Grant-in-Aid account?—Yes, in order to make more important purchases if we want to.

327. Deputy Briscoe.—I have always regarded this account as much too low. You can never hope to get a good picture? —We tried to get it increased but we did not succeed.

Mr. Coburn.—Repairs cost much more than purchases.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 65-EXTERNAL AFFAIRS.

Mr. F. H. Boland called and examined.

328. Chairman.—We will deal now with expenditure under the various subheads A.1 to A.7, which all relate to Headquarters expenditure.

Deputy Sheldon.—In regard to that group, I am not quite happy about the Vote for Civil Service remuneration. There are excesses under the other subheads. I know that this is not really a question for Mr. Boland so much as for Mr. McElligott, who is the person responsible for the Vote for Civil Service remuneration. Can you by any chance give us the figure which would represent the increase in remuneration?—The increase in respect of headquarters’ staff was about £1,300. In the case of staff abroad it is more difficult to arrive at an exact figure because increases to such staff relate not only to salaries but to allowances as well. We had correspondence with the Department of Finance in order to apportion the proportion of the allowances that could be regarded as remuneration from that portion proper to other purposes because at that time our local allowances included the equivalent of home cost-of-living bonus. By apportioning allowances in that way, we arrived at the total figure shown in the Estimate. But there was that special difficulty in our case in respect of staff serving abroad.

329. Chairman.—I take it that the Department of Finance was fully satisfied that the excess on the Vote was completely covered by the increases in remuneration.

330. Miss M. Bhreathnach.—Yes, otherwise it would not have been sanctioned.

331. Chairman.—I notice that under subhead A.5, notwithstanding the fact that there was a Supplementary Estimate of £500 brought in in order to make the original grant £1,000, the expenditure on official entertainment amounted to £2,622 13s. 8d., or £1,622 more than was granted. The explanation given in the note in relation to the subhead is that “the number of distinguished persons who visited this country during the year and to whom entertainment was given was greater than anticipated”. Does not the discrepancy between the original grant and the expenditure seem to indicate that your anticipations in regard to this matter were, shall we say, much too modest?—We always estimate this overhead as modestly as possible because it is one that has to stand criticism. The factors which caused this excess over the Estimate were the visit of Cardinals McGuigan, Gilroy and Griffin for the funeral of Cardinal Glennon, the visit of a Swedish training flotilla and the visit of a British training flotilla to the southern ports. We can always estimate fairly closely as regards likely changes in the diplomatic corps here and prominent people likely to come here. But things of the kind I have mentioned cannot be foreseen and, even though we always leave a margin, the margin was not sufficient in this case to cover those three developments. They account for more than two-thirds of the excess.

332. Had you a similar experience in the year 1947-48?—We increased the provision for the following year and I think we have an increase this year too.

333. But had you an excess on the subhead even in the year 1947-48?—Yes, I believe we had.

334. Deputy Sheldon.—What was the date of the Supplementary Estimate?—If I am not mistaken, the Supplementary Estimate was taken with the main Estimate.

335. It was very early in the year of account?—Yes. I think about July.

Chairman.—Perhaps the Committee will agree with my personal opinion that it might be no harm to be a little more liberal in your estimation under this subhead. It does look rather too great a discrepancy between an original Estimate of £1,000 and an expenditure of £2,622—all of which was quite legitimate.

336. Deputy Briscoe.—Is this not the only Department that has a subhead for entertainment of this kind for distinguished visitors?—Yes. This subhead is at the disposal of all the Ministers.

It is the only subhead in this particular Vote for the purpose. I agree with the Chairman. I think that in view of the fact that the heads of Departments have to receive from time to time distinguished visitors of all kinds, including political heads of other countries, it is difficult for them to have to go across to another Department and say: “Have you any money left so that I can invite this fellow to dinner.”

Chairman.—Do not put it in that realistic fashion.

Deputy Briscoe.—When I speak of a dinner I do not mean buying a dinner for an individual. There will be quite a number of people invited to meet the distinguished guest.

Deputy Sheldon.—I take it from Mr. Boland that as far as that side is concerned their estimation is reasonably accurate. It is where unforeseen items come up. One cannot forecast the coming of prominent men to the country.

337. Deputy Briscoe.—Apart from the unexpected things, am I correct in my view that this amount is really an underestimate at all times?—Yes.

338. Deputy Coburn.—What advantage would it be to the Department to make a bigger Estimate? What would be the difference? Is there much difficulty in bringing in a Supplementary Estimate? —No, except that in principle of course the Estimate made at the beginning of the year should correspond as closely as possible to the expenditure. I am afraid that this is a subhead in which we have found in practice that the unforeseen and the abnormal tend to be normal.

Deputy Coburn.—I suppose that it happens every year.

Deputy Dockrell.—I think the Committee seem to feel that in the past not sufficient has been provided for this purpose and that, from the point of better accountancy, it would be good if the Department would take their courage in both hands and look for more money. There is always a check on extravagant expenditure in this respect, lest the public should think that the amount granted must be expended in the year on anything that is not essential. I think, therefore, from an accountancy point of view if from no other point of view, that we should have a more accurate estimation. That can only be arrived at by increasing the Vote at the beginning of the year. It is a more satisfactory method when there is a programme involving extra expenditure.

338a. Chairman.—With regard to the subhead B.1. to B.5—Expenditure on representation abroad—there was a saving of about £6,058 on the sums granted under subheads B.1, and there was an excess of £4,928 under subhead B.2 on the sum granted for travelling expenses.

339. Deputy Briscoe.—That, Mr. Chairman, is, I think, somewhat similar to the matter we have just been discussing. Travelling expenses here would involve the heads of our Departments and the heads of State who have to go abroad to international conferences and so forth. Perhaps the same approach could be made to that subhead.

Deputy Sheldon.—Does the subhead include heads of Departments?—No. Travelling expenses in respect of people at headquarters would be borne by Subhead A.2.

340. Deputy Briscoe.—What travelling expenses are there then?—The subhead covers the transfer of staffs abroad; the sending of people abroad to attend conferences; the sending of officers on substitution duty. It also covers the authorised leave allowances of officers serving abroad.

341. Chairman.—Would it cover the cost of the delegation to the Marshall Plan Conference?—No. I think that would come under subhead A.2. However, if any of the officers of that delegation were officers serving at posts abroad the cost would be borne by subhead B.2.

342. Deputy Briscoe.—With regard to the Appropriations in Aid, does the Department of External Affairs take full credit in its finances of all the costs such as the payments for travel permits and passports?—No. When we collect moneys of that kind we have to affix a stamp and that stamp we have to purchase for its face value.

343. From the Post Office?—From the Revenue Commissioners. No doubt the receipts are borne on the Revenue Commissioners’ account, then.

344. Chairman.—There is a note on page 257 which gives details of the Incidental Expenses covered by subhead A.3.

VOTE 66—LEAGUE OF NATIONS.

Mr. F. H. Boland further examined.

345. Deputy Briscoe.—This is the last time this Vote appears?—Yes.

345a. What is the position with regard to our claim to a share of the assets when this is being wound up?—It has been paid in full in cash

346. How much did it amount to?— Roughly, £40,000. That is a round figure.

347. Chairman.—It will come up in the following year. It does not arise this year?—No, it will come in as an extra Exchequer receipt, but exactly on what Vote I am not quite certain. There will be no Vote in existence.

Deputy Briscoe.—But there will have to be some note on some Vote to the effect that some Department received this money?

Chairman.—It will appear on the Finance Accounts, but it may not appear at all in the Book.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 41—LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND PUBLIC HEALTH.

Mr. J. Collins called and examined.

348. Chairman.—There are two notes on this Vote. Paragraph 33 relates to extra receipts payable to the Exchequer. I should like in this connection to say that the note, as I shall now read it, will not be exactly as it appears in print, because the printed note does not correctly represent the position. The amended note is as follows:—

“In connection with the sale of equipment which had been provided for emergency cooked food centres, to which reference was made in paragraph 38 of my last report, a further sum of £1,484 12s. 5d. was received during the year under review and portion of the balance of the equipment on hands, valued at £95 17s. 0d., was taken over without repayment by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. The expenditure on the provision of this equipment, which was charged to Subhead L.3 of the Vote in previous years, amounted to £6,741 13s. 1d., and the total amount realised from the sale and hire of equipment and utensils was £3,051 2s. 4d.”

Can the Comptroller and Auditor-General add anything to amplify that?

Mr. Maher.—Nothing, Mr. Chairman, except to say that the balance of the equipment transferred to the Post Office was not the complete balance. A considerable amount of the balance remains over. A good portion of it was disposed of during the year 1947-48 and will appear in the Accounts for that year. I understand that the Accounting Officer will be able to certify that a balance of the equipment is still there.

349. Chairman.—So we are not to understand from this note that the equipment which cost £6,741 odd, was disposed of for £3,051 odd?

Mr. Maher.—That is so.

350. Deputy Coburn.—Where is the remainder of that material?

Chairman.—Is it in the equipment stores?—It was stored throughout by the Dublin Corporation for the Department. Since the end of the financial year that is being dealt with we sold it for £2,351. Allowing for what is on hands for disposal still, there will be a slight surplus over the original cost; we reckon there will be a surplus of £332.

351. Is the Department of Local Government still responsible for that equipment or has it been handed over?—Just now the Department of Social Welfare has taken it over, but they will probably sell what remains through the Post Office.

352. You anticipate there will be a surplus?—Allowing for what remains, at the cost price, to us, there will be a slight surplus. We charged a small percentage, 5 per cent., for administrative expenses. There was also a charge to the Dublin Corporation for the use of it— they had it on loan. These charges will cause a surplus.

353. Chairman.—Paragraph 34 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General reads:

Motor Tax Account.

“A test examination has been applied to the Motor Tax Account with generally satisfactory results. The certificates and reports of the Local Government Auditors who examine the motor tax transactions of local authorities were scrutinised, in so far as they were available, but in ten cases this audit has not been completed at the date of my test examination.

The gross proceeds of motor vehicles, etc., duties in 1946-47, including £22,552 8s. 7d. attributable to fines collected by the Department of Justice, amounted to £1,467,696 13s. 7d., as compared with a total of £982,602 16s. 7d. in the previous year. Fees amounting to £4,587 15s. 6d. received on behalf of the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána under the Road Traffic Act (Parts VI and VII) (Fees) Regulations, 1937 (Statutory Rules and Orders, No. 92 of 1937) are also included in the receipts.”

Do you wish to amplify that, Mr. Maher?

Mr. Maher.—That paragraph is only for information purposes. I understand that a number of the ten cases referred to as being in arrear have since been completed.

Mr. Collins.—In seven of the ten outstanding cases certificates have been furnished by the auditors and no irregularities were disclosed. The other three are under audit at the moment— Dublin, Leitrim and Meath.

354. Deputy Briscoe.—Could the Comptroller and Auditor-General tell us to what they attribute the very substantial increase of almost £500,000? Is it that there are more vehicles on the roads?

Mr. Maher.—There has been an increase during recent years.

Mr. Collins.—The number under licence in August, 1947, was 52,187, compared with 44,489 in August, 1946. That refers to private cars. The number of commercial vehicles under licence in 1947 was 18,138, compared with 14,716 in August, 1946.

Chairman.—We have particulars of the gross proceeds of motor vehicle duties for the seven years’ period ended 31st March, 1947. The figures are given approximately. They will be handed to the Committee Clerk for the purpose of having them included in the report of our proceedings. They may be found useful. We shall now turn to the Vote itself.*

355. Deputy Sheldon.—On subhead F. —Expenses in Connection with International and other Congresses—I am wondering why this is the business of the Department of Local Government—to pay for representation at the Provisional International Civil Aviation Organisation. I do not quite see the connection between such a body and the Local Government Department.

356. Chairman.—Perhaps I could answer that. We anticipated there might be medical questions arising and it was thought advisable to have representation.

Mr. Collins.—Aerial conventions contain sanitary provisions.

357. Deputy Briscoe.—On subhead H.4, there was certain money expended in connection with a survey of human nutrition. Was any document, even a departmental one, published with regard to the findings?—Not while the Department of Local Government and Public Health existed. There has been no document published since.

Chairman.—The Minister for Health may publish one shortly. It is proposed to publish a report of the survey. In connection with a number of these matters, we must remember that Mr. Collins is not responsible for Health: he is responsible for only part of the expenditure here.

Deputy Briscoe.—The Accounting Officer of the Department will have his attention drawn to the fact that a remark was made about the publication of this survey.

Chairman.—We may rely on the Deputy to put that matter to the appropriate Accounting Officer when he comes forward.

Deputy Coburn.—They did not spend all the money allocated.

358. Deputy Gilbride.—As regards subheads J.1 to J.3—Miscellaneous Grants— I take it that these are grants given to local bodies for the things specified. Subhead J.1 refers mostly to Dublin. So far as we are concerned in the country, we were held within certain limits by the county manager. That is why I am surprised that there was so much carried over here.

Chairman.—Perhaps the Accounting Officer for the Department of Health might be able to assist the Deputy. Mr. Kennedy, the grants for child welfare, schools for mothers, etc., are proportionate to the expenditure which the local authority undertakes?

Mr. Kennedy.—To the extent of 50 per cent. of the approved expenditure.

359. Chairman—The footnote states that the excess was mainly due to increased expenditure on this service in Dublin City. So far as the Exchequer is concerned, the excess expenditure arises from the fact that the Dublin Corporation spent more on that service?

Mr. Kennedy.—That is right.

360. Deputy Gilbride.—As regards subheads J.3 and J.4, why is there such a difference so far as the Dublin Corporation are concerned?

Chairman.—We have to keep ourselves clear about this. So far as the grants under subheads J.3 and J.4, are concerned, these grants, Mr. Kennedy, are of quite a different character from the grants under subhead J.1?

Mr. Kennedy.—That is so.

361. Chairman.—J.1 is more or less a statutory grant?

Mr. Kennedy.—Yes, it is based on stature and the amount of the contribution is prescribed by statute.

362. Chairman.—In the case of J.3 the explanation given there is that the saving was mainly attributable to a reduction in the price of turf. In the case of J.4—Grants for the Supply of Assistance in kind to Recipients of Home Assistance—a total sum of £170,000 was provided by Dáil Éireann and it was allocated to the local authorities on the basis of the estimated expenditure by them?

Mr. O’Donovan.—That is so.

363. Chairman.—The grant will be allocated to the local authorities in proportion to the number of home assistance recipients in their area. There was a fixed amount, Mr. O’Donovan, allocated to County Sligo.

Mr. O’Donovan.—There was.

364. Chairman.—And the county council would not be allowed to exceed that?

Mr. O’Donovan.—They might spend more money but they would not have a greater grant.

365. Deputy Coburn.—Out of the local rates?

Mr. O’Donovan.—Yes.

Chairman.—Subhead J.1 is a statutory grant; the grants under subheads J.3 and J.4 and indeed J.2, are of a different character. They are grants made annually by the Dáil and are not governed by statute, but by some sort of an administrative precedent—either an administrative precedent or a regulation. The point about them is that they have to be allocated in such a way as to ensure that every county will get its fair share of them and will get such a share as is estimated to provide for its needs. That may mean that some counties will get a slightly larger grant than they are, in fact able to use, while other counties will get a grant not sufficient to cover what they think will be their requirements.

Deputy Gilbride.—In these three subheads, there is a sum of £50,000 unexpended, yet we always found we had to be cheeseparing with the County Manager to get any money out of him.

Chairman.—The main saving arises under subhead J.3 and the saving there was due to the fact that there has been a reduction in the price of turf.

Deputy Sheldon.—The saving expressed as a percentage of the total grants from these four subheads is not so big in the total estimate.

366. Deputy Briscoe.—On subhead L.1 I would like to ask the Accounting Officer if he has any report with regard to the type and method of giving these school meals. Has it come to his notice that there is a great deal of discontent with regard to a terrific amount of waste, due to the type of meal not being satisfactory?

Chairman.—That is a large question and I suggest that, it having been put to the Accounting Officer, we should allow him time to consider it and resume the next day the examination of that question.

367. Deputy Briscoe.—At the same time, perhaps, the Accounting Officer would tell us if the Department exercises any control directly over these provision, over and above the local authority?

Mr. O’Donovan.—No control is exercised by the Department. It is now in the Department of Social Welfare.

Chairman.—We can take it, therefore, that Mr. Collins need not devote any attention to that point at this stage, and Mr. O’Donovan will be prepared to deal more fully with it when the Vote for the Department of Social Welfare is under consideration.

The witnesses withdrew.

The Committee adjourned.

* See Appendix VII.