Committee Reports > List of Committees > Dáil > 1948 > Committee of Public Accounts > Report - Appropriation Accounts 1946 - 1947

MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA

(Minutes of Evidence)

Dé Céadaoin 2ú Meitheamh, 1948

Wednesday, 2nd June, 1948.

The Committee sat at 11 a.m.

Mr. J. Maher (An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste), Mr. J. Mooney and Miss Máire Bhreathnach (An Roinn Airgeadais), called and examined.

VOTE 45—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION.

Micheál Breathnach called and examined.

129. Chairman.—There is no note on this Vote, so we can proceed at once to consider the subheads of the Estimate. Is there any member of the Committee who would like to raise any point on Subhead A.1, A.2 or A.3? The explanation for the excess expenditure on subhead A.3, is given in the footnote—“Excess due to number of advertisements in connection with the National Teachers’ strike in Dublin City.” A.4, B.1, B.2, C.—Preparation of Irish Vocabularies—on which there has been a saving of £69 9s. 10d. due to the fact that it was not found possible to hold meetings of the Advisory Committee as frequently as had been expected; D—Appropriations in Aid—the Estimate was practically realised and the net surplus to be surrendered on the Vote is £4,184 3s. 5d. There is a note under “Extra Remuneration (exceeding £30).” There is also a note that the account includes expenditure of approximately £2,786 in respect of staff temporarily lent. without repayment, to other Departments and offices. Is there any comment? We shall pass then to Vote 46, page 143.

VOTE 46—PRIMARY EDUCAION.

Micheál Breathnach further examined.

130. Chairman.—On this Vote there are four notes by the Comptroller and Auditor-General—paragraphs 35 to 38 of the Report. Paragraph 35 is as follows:—

“The average boarding cost per head for the school year 1946-47 ranged from 12s. 11d. to 15s. 6d. per week, showing increases in five and a decrease in one of the colleges as compared with the previous year.

The average fee paid by the students for the same school year was £14 15s. 10d., as compared with £14 8s. 0d. for the previous year.

Accounts have been furnished to me showing the receipts and expenditure for the school year 1946-47 in connection with the farms and gardens attached to the six colleges. Three of these accounts show a surplus of receipts over expenditure while the other three accounts, including that of a college which had been taken over by the Department of Defence and was not handed back until September, 1946, show an excess of expenditure over receipts.”

Perhaps the Comptroller and Auditor-General might like to amplify that

Mr. Maher.—That is an annual paragraph, for information only.

(Deputy Sheldon at this point took the Chair).

131. Chairman.—In regard to the colleges whose farm accounts show a loss, were there any special circumstances?

Mr. Breathnach.—I do not think there were, except the local circumstances governing the cost of production and prices. We do not expect preparatory colleges to make a profit as long as they are able to supply the colleges with fresh vegetables, milk and major crops such as potatoes.

132. Chairman.—If there are no other questions we will turn to paragraph 36. the first sub-paragraph of which is as follows:—

“Since 1st April, 1941, reformatory and industrial schools have been recognised as national schools in respect of literary instruction in the primary school programme, and the salaries of the literary teachers engaged in these schools, less a fixed amount payable by the managers, have been charged to the Vote. It was decided, with the approval of the Department of Finance, to charge to the Vote as from the 1st April, 1946, the full salaries of these teachers and also the grants in respect of heating, cleaning, etc., payable in the case of ordinary national schools.”

Has the Comptroller and Auditor-General any comment on that?

Mr. Maher.—I understand that owing to financial stringency the full benefits of their recognition as national schools as from 1st April, 1941, were not extended to reformatory and industrial schools but from 1st April, 1946, full salaries were paid.

Mr. Breathnach.—That is right—also heating and cleaning grants and free book grants.

133. Chairman.—The paragraph continues as follows:—

“The scales of salary of national teachers and the grants to schools paid on a capitation basis were increased with effect as from the 31st October, 1946, when the strike of teachers in the Dublin area which began on 20th March, 1946, came to an end. It was decided, with the approval of the Minister for Finance, to pay to teachers of national schools in Dublin who had rendered service during the period of the strike special allowances of £20 to principals and £10 to those capitation schools where any member of the staff was on strike. The total payments amounted to £4,840 11s. 0d., of which £4,806 10s. 0d. is charged in the account under review

I am in communication with the Accounting Officer regarding the departmental audit of teachers’ salaries, etc.”

Mr. Maher.—As regards the first portion of that sub-paragraph these payments were made outside the terms of the rules but, as the approval of the Department of Finance was obtained, I felt we should pass the payment as a proper charge to the Vote. As regards the last sub-paragraph, the Accounting Officer has not yet informed us what is the position of the departmental audit of national teachers’ salaries.

Mr. Breathnach.—You will be informed very soon. Unfortunately, it is a bit in arrears on account of two main causes— shortage of staff and pressure of work. The preparation of the new salary scales for national teachers placed a very big burden on our staff and, as it had to have priority, I am afraid the other was allowed to get into arrears. We have taken measures to have the audit brought up to date as soon as possible.

134. Chairman.—How far is it in arrears?—It is quite a lot in arrears, I am afraid—on an average, about three years—but we have had a considerable amount of bad luck. First of all, the incidence of sickness has been very heavy in our Department recently and then there has been a shortage of staff.

135. Is there any hope of its being speeded up?—It is being speeded. We have taken measures already to speed it.

136. Chairman.—I suppose the Department of Finance considered opening a special subhead for those grants that were paid rather than that they should be met from Subhead C.1?

Miss Bhreathnach.—It was so closely allied to their salaries that we did not think a special subhead was necessary.

137. Chairman.—As the Comptroller and Auditor-General has pointed out, these payments were, so to speak, outside the rules.

Miss Bhreathnach.—That is so, but the rules can, in a particular case, be waived with the sanction of the Department of Finance. It is ordinary financial procedure and it was done in the same way. For instance, you have various bonuses paid, charged to the salaries subhead and it would have been scarcely necessary, in view of the large list of payments already in the salaries subheads, such as fees for cookery and laundry and bonuses for special qualifications, to have a special subhead. We felt it was sufficiently wide to take these payments.

138. Chairman.—I take it from the wording of the paragraph that it was a decision of the Minister for Finance?

Miss Bhreathnach.—It was a decision of the Government.

139. Mr. Pattison.—Is it in order to raise here the question of the principle?

Chairman.—That would not be a matter for this Committee.

140. Chairman.—Paragraph 37 reads:

“A supplementary estimate was taken in the year under review to provide for increased payments under this head. Hitherto bonus at the rate of £2 per pupil was payable in respect of certain pupils of national schools between the ages of 6 and 14 years in whose homes the language of the household is Irish. Commencing with the school year 1945-46 this bonus was increased to £5 per pupil, the upper age limit was raised to 16 years and the scheme was extended to pupils of secondary and technical schools on the same conditions as are applicable to pupils of national schools. Payments in respect of pupils in national schools in the year under review amounted to £34,107, while the payments in respect of pupils in secondary and technical schools amounted to £300 and £255 respectively.”

Mr. Maher.—This paragraph is for information only. It shows the new rates and the conditions under which they may be paid.

Chairman.—The amounts seem to indicate that it has not been availed of very much in the secondary or technical schools.

Micheál Breathnach.—The number of secondary and technical schools in the Gaeltacht would be very few.

141. Chairman.—Paragraph 38 reads:—

Subhead D.—Superannuation, etc., of Teachers.

“In my last report I referred to the concession granted to certain women teachers to allow them to continue in the service for a year beyond the prescribed age limit of 60 years. In view of the further improvement in the employment position of national teachers, it was decided with the approval of the Minister for Finance, to allow women teachers reaching 60 years after 31st December, 1944, or having less than 35 years’ service at that date, and whose service is efficient, to continue in the service up to 62 years of age or the completion of 37 years’ service, and in cases of special hardship for a further period. The number of women teachers who retired on pension, otherwise than through disablement or inefficiency, in the year ended 31st March, 1947, was 28 as compared with 72 in the previous year and 116 in the year ended 31st March, 1945.”

Mr. Maher.—The purpose of this paragraph is to bring up to date the information given in the previous report.

142. Chairman.—On subhead A.4 of the Vote, has there been any improvement in the number of students coming forward?—The scheme has been extended now and includes three divisions. Grants are paid to Irish colleges for national teachers, secondary teachers and university graduates who have the Diploma in Education. Besides that, we give grants for other persons over 18 and then grants for students between 11 and 18. I do not think there has been any increase in the teachers, but there has been any increase in the teachers, but there has been in the number of students between 11 and 18.

143. Chairman.—On subhead C.2, can you say if the school requisites position has improved? I see here that there was a scarcity of school requisites?—It is improving slightly.

144. On subhead C.7, in the case of non-payment of the moiety of the annuities through conditions not being fulfilled, is that a permanent bar to the payment of these particular moieties?— No, they may fulfil them later.

145. On subhead C.10 is there any particular reason for the falling off in the number of claims?—The applications have not come in.

146. Would the Department have any idea as to the reason? Is it an increase in the general standard of living so that they do not need free books?—There are some parents who object to having their children regarded as necessitous, and, generally speaking, the people who should be active do not take as much interest as one would imagine they should take, that is, the managers and teachers from whom the applications must come.

147. Deputy Blaney.—Does that apply to all schools?—Yes, but the children must be necessitous and be so certified by the manager.

148. It does not seem to be very well known?—The managers know all right. It is well known.

149. Deputy Gilbride.—It is a bad system, because no child wants to be called necessitous and no parent wants to go to the manager and say his child is necessitous. There should be some other way.

150. Deputy Pattison.—There are some cases in which the parents regard their children as qualifying for these books and they have not got them. I have in mind a case of a postman on a very small wage, who was not successful in his efforts to get his children provided for in this way.

151. Deputy Gilbride.—Is it the Department or the manager that lays down the guiding rules as to who is in need?— The Department could not do it. We accept the certificate of the manager.

152. It is completely with the manager? —Yes, the manager selects the pupils to benefit.

153. Chairman.—Under No. (9) of the Appropriations in Aid, how did the income from the securities realise less than estimated? Are they not trust funds or fixed income funds?—They are trust funds, but I understand they are in the hands of the Department of Finance, who simply pay over the income to us. The Department of Finance handles the money in the trust and may vary an investment without consulting us.

154. Are the interest rates not fixed on these securities?—The Department of Finance will be able to answer that.

155. Miss Bhreathnach.—I am sorry to say I do not deal with the investment in securities, so I am not in a position to inform you, but I can let the Committee know later on, if that will suit.

156. Chairman.—It is usual for such funds to have a fixed interest?

Miss Bhreathnach.—I know that the investment of the securities has varied from time to time, but I am not sure regarding this particular lot whether they were varied or not, so I could not say at the moment, as I am not on that side of the House.

Mr. Maher.—Variation takes place from time to time in all investments. For instance, if a loan falls due or is due for redemption, the money would be paid into the fund and reinvested in another security, which might yield a greater or lesser sum in dividends. That variation and reinvestment is going on all the time, not alone in respect of funds allocated to the Department of Education, but in respect of all other Departments, so one can never say in any particular year that the sum received in dividends will be unvaried.

157. Chairman.—There is a tendency at present for the amounts to be less.

Mr. Maher.—Last year the tendency was for it to drop, but now, with the reversion to 3 per cent., I think the tendency is for it to rise.

158. Chairman.—On No. (12), showing an amount recovered from the Government of Northern Ireland, is that the case that came up in the accounts last year?

Mr. Breathnach.—Yes, the case of overpayment of pension to a retired teacher.

VOTE 47—SECONDARY EDUCATION.

Micheál Breathnach further examined.

159. Chairman.—On subhead E., is the printing of texts being dealt with better now? Has the position improved?—Very little. It is still serious.

160. On subhead F., the note states that the number of teachers who attended the courses in Irish were less than anticipated—apparently very considerably less? —Yes. Teachers do not need these courses now as much as they did, as I have explained frequently. There is machinery for training them in Irish elsewhere, in the universities, preparatory colleges and training colleges, where there is intensive work now in Irish, very much beyond what was there when these courses were commenced.

161. I presume the amount estimated for will decrease?—One can never tell beforehand. One has always to make arrangements in order to cope with the possibility of an increase.

VOTE 48—TECHNICAL INSTRUCTION.

Micheál Breathnach further examined.

162. Chairman.—With regard to subhead E.—Grants for Drawing and Manual Instruction in Miscellaneous Schools— what precisely is meant by the explanation that the number of classes eligible for grants is reduced?—This is really a survival. It only applies to a very small number of industrial schools which get a small attendance grant for manual instruction and drawing. The number of schools sharing in it is lessening practically every year.

VOTE 49—SCIENCE AND ART.

Micheál Breathnach further examined.

163. Chairman.—Paragraph 39 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General is as follows:

“Token provision was made under this subhead for the expenses of printing and publication of the revised edition in English of the late Professor R. Thurneysen’s work, Handbuch des alt Irischen, prepared for publication by the author with the assistance of an officer of the Department. On the death of the author in 1940 the task of editing the revised edition was undertaken by the Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies. It was later decided that publication should be entrusted to the Institute and, with the approval of the Minister for Finance, all rights and commitments in the work were transferred to the Institute by deed dated 29th April, 1947. The expenditure incurred on this work, which is charged in the accounts of previous years, amounted to £1,605 10s. 6d.”

Mr. Maher.—This paragraph records a change in responsibility for this work of Professor Thurneysen which is transferred to the Institute for Advanced Studies.

Mr. Breathnach.—It is actually published.

164. Chairman.—Paragraph 40 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General is as follow:

“The charge to this subhead includes a sum of £1,205 being the cost of a number of paintings which were acquired in connection with the centenary of Thomas Davis and the Young Ireland Movement. I am in communication with the Accounting Officer regarding the arrangements made for the care and custody of these paintings and also of the busts referred to in the following paragraph.”

Mr. Maher.—Since the date of the report the Accounting Officer has informed us of the location of these various paintings. I am not clear whether he contemplates a periodical check-up on their condition and existence.

Mr. Breathnach.—Certainly.

Mr. Maher.—Some of them are with the Municipal and provincial Art Galleries as well as in Government Departments.

Mr. Breathnach.—We have made arrangements for a periodical check-up. We will make sure that they are where they are supposed to be.

165. Chairman.—Paragraph 41 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General is as follows:

“A taken sum of £5 was provided under this subhead to enable works of art which are not considered appropriate for purchase by the National Gallery to be acquired for the national collection, and a committee was appointed by the Minister for Education with the approval of the Government to advise on proposals for such purchases. The charge of £1,200 is in respect of five portrait busts the purchase of which had been recommended by the committee.”

Mr. Maher.—I understand that these busts are at present in the custody of the National Gallery.

Mr. Breathnach.—Yes.

166. Chairman.—Paragraph 42 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General is as follows:

“This subhead was opened with the sanction of the Department of Finance to bring to account portion of the cost of purchase of a Giraldus Cambrensis manuscript for the National Library. As stated in a note to the account, the cost of the manuscript was £1,760 of which £181 2s. 1d. was met by the application of the unexpended balance of the grant-in-aid for purchase of Books, etc., the balance being charged to this subhead.”

Mr. Maher. —That paragraph is for information only, Mr. Chairman.

167. Chairman.—Paragraph 43 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General is as follows:

“In the year under review a sum of £300 was donated to the Minister for Education by An Dochtúir Dubhglas De h-Ide the annual income from which is to be used for the purpose of encouraging the development of Irish historical paintings, including portraiture, by the award of a medal for the best work of the kind produced in each year. By direction of the Minister for Finance an account of this fund has been appended to the appropriation account for Science and Art. It is proposed that expenditure on the preparation of the design and dies for the medal, and the cost of printing and advertising in connection with the competition in any year, should be borne on the Science and Art Vote, leaving the total income from the capital investment available for the provision of the annual award.”

Mr. Maher.—Details of the account will be found on page 166.

168. Chairman.—The Vote itself is on page 160. With regard to subhead B.1— Publications in Irish—is further progress being made in the printing of publications in Irish or are there still difficulties?— There are still difficulties. There is still quite a number of books with the printers and the Stationery Office.

169. Subhead B.5—Preparation of Revised Edition of Handbuch des alt Irischen—has, of course, disappeared?— There is a possibility that we may have a second volume consisting of extracts from ancient Irish literature. That project is merely in the embryo stage at the moment. Nothing has been done about it.

170. With regard to subhead B.6— Irish Committee of Historical Sciences (Grant-in-Aid)—has the history been published since?—No. It is still in course of preparation. Material is still being gathered for it. There was a good deal of delay because Professor Moody and Professor Dudley Edwards were engaged for a long time on the Foyle Fishery case.

171. With regard to subhead B.11— Grants to Colleges providing Courses in Irish for Persons other than Teachers— how is it that—as mentioned by you on another Vote—though the number of teachers still showed a falling off and the number of students between the ages you mentioned had increased, here the grants to Colleges for providing courses in Irish for persons other than teachers, due to the lack of students, were not availed of? Has the Department some other scheme which has had the effect of taking the students away in this case?— Part of the scheme was entirely new, namely, that part which involved people between the ages of 11 and 18 years. That is where any increase did occur.

172. Did that scheme cut across this?— They are out of two different Votes. This charge is entirely for non-teachers over 18. These people generally prefer, rather than go to a college, to select their own place. They go into a house in the Gaeltacht.

173. With regard to subhead B.12— Centenary Commemoration of Thomas Davis and the Young Ireland Movement—is progress being made in the matter of the Davis Scholarship?—We have put up a scheme and we have asked the Institute for Higher Studies to operate it. We have not had any reply from them as yet. The scheme has been drafted and submitted to them.

174. Deputy Brady.—What is the cause of the delay in the erection of the Davis statue in College Green?—We are trying to get suitable models. We issued advertisements to five artists and only two, I think, replied. Models were provided by two of them and the Department of Defence is examining them.

175. Is it hoped that it will be erected this year?—I would not like to make any promise but we will do what we can to speed it up.

VOTE 50—REFORMATORY AND INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS.

Micheál Breathnach further examined.

176. Chairman.—Paragraph 44 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General is as follow:

“In view of the deterioration of the existing buildings, it was decided that financial aid should be afforded to managers of reformatory and industrial schools to enable them to undertake works of rebuilding and repair. With the approval of the Ministers for Finance and Local Government, a scheme for the payment of grants for this purpose, and for the provision of equipment for vocational training, was brought into operation as from 1st October, 1946. The scheme provides for an increase of 6d. per week in the rate of the weekly maintenance contribution made by local authorities, for a corresponding reduction in the State maintenance contribution charged to subheads A. and B. of the Vote, and for the payment of building and equipment grants at the rate of 1/- per week per detainee in respect of which the charge to subhead F. amounts to £4,028 5s. 10d.”

Mr. Maher.—This scheme, which was intended to help school managers to maintain school buildings, operated from October, 1946, to December, 1947, and from the 1st January, 1948 the ordinary maintenance grants were increased and the managers became entirely responsible for buildings.

(Deputy MacEntee resumed the Chair.)

177. Chairman.—The second paragraph of the note states:

“Provision was made in a Supplementary Estimate for the payment of special grants towards the cost of the establishment of a new industrial school for boys and the rebuilding of an industrial school for girls which had been destroyed by fire. In the case of the boys’ school it has been agreed, with the approval of the Minister for Finance, to pay one-half of the cost of its establishment subject to a maximum State contribution of £40,000 of which £9,950 16s. 0d. was paid in the year under review. The charge to this subhead also includes a grant of £7,500 paid in relief of the debt incurred in the rebuilding of the girls’ school.”

Mr. Maher.—As stated in the note, a Supplementary Estimate was taken for grants towards the cost of providing an additional industrial school for senior boys at Celbridge and the rebuilding of a girls’ industrial school at Cavan.

178. Deputy Sheldon.—As to the Appropriations in Aid, what do they consist of?

Mr. Breathnach.—Receipts from parents for children sent to reformatory and industrial schools, allowances receivable under the Widows’ and Orphans’ Pensions Act, voluntary payments, and Court orders when we proceeded against anyone for payment. We get payments also from the Ministry of Pensions and the Ministry of Health in Great Britain.

179. Chairman.—In fact the Appropriations in Aid realised £592 odd over the estimate and the total surplus to be surrendered is £1,261 4s. 7d.

VOTE 28—DUBLIN INSTITUTE FOR ADVANCED STUDIES.

Micheál Breathnach further examined.

180. Chairman.—There is no note on this Vote. The expenditure on Subhead A was less than granted and the explanation is given in the footnote as follows:

“Saving due to (a) unavoidable delay in filling vacancies on the academic staffs of the different schools, (b) inability of the Institute to secure the services of visiting professors or to obtain books and equipment owing to restricted supplies and delay in fulfilling orders due to post-war conditions, (c) delay in production of publications owing to slow output of work from printing contractors, (d) unavoidable delay in establishing the Schools of Cosmic Physics and Historical Research.”

On subhead B. there is a saving of £4,000 due to the fact that actual possession of Dunsink Observatory could not be obtained by the Institute before the end of the financial year.

181. Deputy Sheldon.—Was this £6,000 expended on Dunsink?

Miss Bhreathnach.—I am not sure, but I know that £4,500 was the cost of Dunsink and then there was other expenditure on fitting up the town premises.

182. Deputy Sheldon.—The subhead is for new buildings that you are taking over?

Mr. Breathnach.—The adaptation of existing buildings and the acquisition of new ones. The School of Cosmic Physics has actually been set up, but not the School of Historical Research.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 52—LANDS.

Mr. M. Deegan called and examined.

183. Chairman.—There is a rather lengthy note, No. 45, on this, the first sub-paragraph of which reads:

Subhead I.—Improvement of Estates, etc.

“The total expenditure borne on the Vote for Lands in connection with the scheme whereby certain lands in County Meath, available for the relief of congestion, are reserved for allottees from the Gaeltacht, from its inception in 1934-35 to 31st March, 1947, amounts to £103,568 6s. 5d., including £26 1s. 3d. in the year under review. In addition, expenditure amounting to £2,050 9s. 10d., which was subsequently recouped to the Land Commission by the Office of Public Works, was incurred in the erection of a schoolhouse. As it appeared that a number of the original allottees had vacated or been ejected from their holdings, I have inquired regarding stock and equipment supplied by the Land Commission which were not recovered from the allottees concerned, and also regarding the expenditure incurred in restocking, etc. the holdings before they were reallotted.”

Mr. Maher.—I have recently been informed in connection with the Gaeltacht colonies that eight of the original allottees vacated or were ejected from their holdings; that stock and equipment supplied by the Land Commission and valued at £387 11s. 1d. was not recovered from these allottees; and that £95 17s., being the cost of ejectment proceedings in one case, was also irrecoverable. The expenditure incurred in restocking, etc., the holdings before reallotment amounted to £58.

184. Deputy Brady.—How many allottees were there altogether in these Gaeltacht colonies in Meath?

Mr. Deegan.—122 were brought up, seven went home again and one was ejected.

185. They went home voluntarily?— Yes.

186. From this note one would gather that there was a larger proportion of allottees ejected from holdings having been found unsatisfactory?—There was really only one.

187. It is well to bring that out, that only one had to be ejected and that seven went home voluntarily?—It was not for unsatisfactory use of his holding but because he failed to make title to the old holding he was surrendering.

188. Chairman.—He was not an unsatisfactory tenant?—He was a very unsatisfactory tenant and caused an awful lot of trouble. I know that the Deputy is referring to the use of the land.

Deputy Brady.—He was not unsatisfactory from that point of view?—So far as I know, he worked the land all right.

189. Chairman.—Did he pay?—I do not think he paid anything. We certainly lost a lot over him.

190. Deputy Brady.—I query that note in view of the statement we have had. The note says: “As it appeared that a number of the original allottees had vacated or been ejected from their holdings… ”

Mr. Maher.—That information was given subsequent to the issue of the report. Mr. Deegan’s reply was dated 8th May and the report was written in February.

191. Chairman.—There was nothing in the account submitted to you to indicate that in fact only one person had been ejected?

Mr. Maher.—I cannot recollect at the moment but, when the query was issued, so far as we were aware there might have been a number.

192. Deputy Brady.—I do not think it is fair to a number of these people who came from a Gaeltacht district that I know very well and others from the Western Gaeltacht, that that sentence or paragraph should appear in the report.

Mr. Maher.—I should like to say, without of course making any adverse comment, that we inquired from the Accounting Officer in January. The report was issued in February and Mr. Deegan’s reply did not come until May. There may be reason for the delay, but at the date of the report I had not sufficient information to say what number of allottees were concerned.

Chairman.—I think we will agree that it does rather give the impression that the number of people ejected as being unsatisfactory was significant. Of course we cannot discuss that now.

193. Chairman.—I shall now read the second sub-paragraph in Note 45:

“Under the scheme for the provision of holdings in certain counties in Leinster for migrants from districts where there is acute congestion, the expenditure, apart from the cost of general improvements (roads, drains, fences, etc.), borne on the Vote for Lands during the year amounts to £1,725 7s. 4d. The expenditure on this scheme from its inception in 1937-38 to 31st March, 1947, amounts to £113,718 11s. 4d. made up as follows:

Until the scheme is completed it is not possible to apportion the expenditure on general improvements in respect of migrants’ holdings on the estates.”

Would the Accounting Officer care to say anything on that paragraph?—The Committee were inquiring earlier about the people who went back to their old homes. In connection with this they might like to know that, of 213 group migrants, only one has gone home. The first lot that we were speaking about were Gaeltacht colonists. These are group migrants, and, as I have said, of the 213 only one family has gone home.

And the others are settled?—Yes, and are working satisfactorily.

194. Chairman.—I shall now read the concluding sub-paragraph in the note:

“A saw-mill, situated on an estate acquired by the Land Commission, has been utilised since 1941 for the production, from timber on the estate, of gates, gate posts and other requirements for improvement works. The expenditure involved in these operations was charged in the first instance to a suspense account. The assessed value of the articles produced up to 31st March, 1946, and used on improvement words, amounted to £1,051 3s. 5d. which was charged to the Vote for 1945-46, and a similar charge to the Vote for the year under review amounted to £451 14s. 9d., these sums being credited to the suspense account. The balance on the latter account on 31st March, 1947, was £63 7s. 10d. In arriving at the cost of production of the articles it is not clear that the full value of the timber used has been taken into account. I have inquired regarding the method of accounting, the system of control over the timber felled and converted, and the disposal of the manufactured articles.”

Mr. Maher.—In reply to my inquiry, the Accounting Officer has informed me that during the emergency adjustments as between the suspense account and the Vote were not made, but that in future there will be no delay in charging, as far as possible, expenditure incurred as final payments. As regards the system of control, I have been informed that 1,236 trees were felled and converted, that the value of 520 of these trees—£266 5s. 0d. —has been accounted for in the suspense account, and that £522 18s. 10d., the value of the remaining 716 trees, will be charged to that account in due course.

195. Deputy Sheldon.—There is no answer to the note about the disposal of the manufactured articles.

Mr. Maher.—They were allocated, as the Accounting Officer will be able to explain in greater detail, to the various estates, and were charged up against them.

Mr. Deegan.—On a particular estate that we took over we found a saw-mill and a lot of timber. We had a great demand for timber on our own works. At the time timber was scarce and expensive. We found that we were able to use the saw-mill and convert some of this timber for our own purposes. We use a lot of fencing stakes. We make scantlings, gates, wheelbarrows and other things, so that we were able to make very good use of this material. As we used the material on other estates, we made proper charges against them in respect of the materials so used and credited the particular estate on which we found the saw-mill and the timber. We were a bit slow in doing that, but as the Comptroller and Auditor-General has pointed out, the accounts kept were quite “correct and proper”. The estate in question is at Agher in County Kildare. It is the Winter estate, but Agher is the name of the house and demesne.

196. Chairman.—Are you continuing to operate the saw-mill?—We have divided the land and we are finished there. I think that the last bit of timber we need there has been felled. We cut a lot of timber on it for the allottees.

197. Deputy Sheldon.—I presume that the felled timber is being replaced by replanting?—When the Land Commission fells timber it does not always replant, but another branch of the Department replants for the State.

198. Chairman.—Replants an equivalent amount, I take it?—A much greater amount.

199. Does it do that as part of its general responsibility or as an agent for the Land Commission in order to fulfil the requirements of the Forestry Acts?— Well, it is the State that fulfils the duties of the State. If the State, on the one hand, fells timber, and on the other hand replants, then the State is doing its duty.

200. Chairman.—The Comptroller and Auditor-General has the following note in paragraph 46:

Repayable Exchequer Advance.

“Reference has been made in previous reports to an advance of £200,000 made from the Vote in March, 1925, to enable pavments in lieu of rent to be made to landlords as required by the Land Act, 1923. Of this advance £85,000 has been repaid and under the provisions of Section 15 of the Land Act, 1933, arrears of payments in lieu of rent due by tenant purchasers amounting to £41,160 8s. 3d. have been funded and £72,484 3s. 6d. remitted. In addition, sums amounting to £26 15s. 0d. were written off as irrecoverable under the authority of the Department of Finance. The outstanding balance due to the Exchequer at 31st March, 1947, as shown in the statement appended to the account, was, therefore, £1,328 13s. 3d.”

Mr. Maher.—The paragraph shows the present position of the advance of £200,000 made in 1925.

201. Deputy Sheldon.—Is there any doubt about the recovery of the balance?

Mr. Deegan.—I may say that I have some doubt myself about the recovery of all of it. The Committee will see on page 175 that the balance of the advance outstanding is £1,328 odd. In the Land Commission we think that £500 or £600 of that will not be got. If it can be got we will get it.

202. Chairman.—We can now turn to the subheads.

203. Deputy Sheldon.—On subhead I—Improvement of Estates, etc.—I see that, in the note, there is a reference to continued difficulties in carrying out building contracts. I suppose you still find it difficult to get building contractors?— We are in the same boat as everybody else. It is difficult to make progress. We find it very hard to get contractors. I may say that we deal mostly with small contractors.

204. What is the difference between untenanted land which is dealt with under subhead J., and unoccupied holdings which come under subhead L.1?—Untenanted land is land that we have taken into our hands. Provided it is on our hands, we have to get some income from it to meet the outgoings. Unoccupied holdings are defaulters’ holdings which come into our hands when they are taken up for arrears of annuities. While they are on our hands we have to manage them.

205. You make a profit out of those lands?—We make a good profit out of the untenanted land.

206. Chairman.—That has not always been the case?—Not always, but during the past few years it has been quite easy to make a profit.

207. Subhead N. is a rather exceptional subhead because, although the sum of £3,500 was provided under the Vote, there was no expenditure at all under the subhead?—The explanation is that the couple of cases which were coming forward were not completed during the year.

208. Deputy Sheldon.—Were they completed later?—They were.

209. Chairman.—I notice that, under subhead S., the surplus of Appropriations in Aid realised was £6,902 14s. 8d. over the original Estimate. On page 176 particulars are given of extra remuneration (exceeding £30). In the notes there is reference to the apportioned annuities amounting to £1 10s. 6d. on five holdings submerged owing to coast erosion which were written off as irrecoverable. Particulars are also given of the amount of arrears of annuities written off as irrecoverable under section 20 of the Land Act of 1939.

210. Chairman.—I see at the bottom of page 177 a note stating that a migrant to a parcel of untenanted land on the estate of Gerrard, S.153, County Meath, failed to show title to the old holding and that the agreement for which he held the parcel was terminated. Is that the gentleman who was ejected?—That is the gentleman of whom we were speaking.

Deputy Brady—And it cost something too.

211. Chairman.—There is a further note to the effect that a contractor failed to complete a contract entered into with the Land Commission and that £4 8s. 10d., the loss sustained in consequence, was written off. There is also a footnote stating that the Land Commission granted a lease of certain fishing rights on an estate in Cork at a rent over and above all rates and taxes. Before the expiration of the lease, the lessee left the country owing arrears of rent. The amount involved is not very large.

VOTE 53—FORESTRY.

Mr. M. Deegan further examined.

212. Chairman.—Under subhead C.2 of this Vote, which deals with cultural operations, the expenditure was £22,534 8s. 9d. less than the amount granted. The explanation will be found in the footnote, that there were savings on labour due to the heavy snowfall and on materials caused by inability to obtain supplies.

Deputy Sheldon.—The Supplementary Estimate was introduced on the 28th February and my recollection is that the snow had already fallen then?—There was a very fair indication of abnormal weather about that time.

213. Chairman.—I suppose having got so far with the Minister for Finance, the Department was loath to scratch its horses at the last moment?—I have not got the exact date of the snowfall but I have no reason to think that the information contained in the note is incorrect.

214. I notice that the surplus of Appropriations in Aid realised was £38,650 10s. 11d. and that sales of timber realised £45,348. Is that any of the timber that is now considered to be surplus to requirements?—Yes, I would say so.

215. Some of the timber which we have in the Park?—Yes. At the request of the Government we proceeded to increase the supplies.

Deputy Sheldon.—The only comment I wish to make is that the date of the introduction of the Supplementary Estimate was the last day of February, leaving just one month of the accounting year. The Department estimated that the sales of timber would bring in about £11,000 whereas it brought in over £35,000. Surely with only one month to go, you could have given a nearer figure for the sales of timber? However, Mr. Maher has more or less satisfied me about that matter.

217. Chairman.—I suppose there would be a time lag between the actual agreement as to the amount of the Supplementary Estimate and its introduction. In any event, if you erred at all, you erred on the side of having a superabundance of supplies?—There was a very big demand for timber at that time.

218. You seem, in fact, to have realised a surplus on practically all items of the subhead but in items 6 and 7 there was a small deficiency on the Estimate?—A very slight deficiency.

Deputy Sheldon.—The weather would have probably affected the sale of surplus plants during that spring.

219. Chairman.—Item 7 of the Appropriations in Aid represents: “Miscellaneous, including compensation for malicious injury to forest properties.” You estimated that you were going to get £2,500 whereas in fact you realised only £1,863 11s. 6d. Is that due to the fact that there was less malicious damage done?—We got very little for malicious damage in that year. I have the figures here. For malicious damage we got £106 out of just over £4,000. It is very difficult to prove these cases.

220. The wording of item 7 would lead one to believe that the principal element of the term “miscellaneous” was compensation for malicious injuries?—Yes. Perhaps undue stress is laid on it. It is, in fact, a very small item.

VOTE 54—GAELTACHT SERVICES.

Mr. M. Deegan further examined.

221. Chairman.—There are two notes by the Comptroller and Auditor-General in connection with this Vote. Paragraph 47 reads:

“Under the Housing (Gaeltacht) Acts 1929 to 1939 the aggregate amount of grant and loans which may be made is not to exceed £750,000.

At 31st March, 1947, the position regarding such grants and loans was as follows:

Mr. Maher.—The purpose of the paragraph is to give the Committee information of the extent to which grants and loans have been made under the Housing (Gaeltacht) Acts 1929 to 1939.

222. Deputy Sheldon.—Roughly there is about £100,000 still to call on?—There is about £100,000 not appropriated to sanctions, but if we take the amount of actual payments we are more to the good.

223. Chairman.—Are particulars of the repayments set out anywhere? I suppose they would be under Votes 10 and 11?— The loans are made by the Board of Works. We are concerned only with the grants.

224. You just certify and the Office of Public Works pays?—Exactly.

225. Chairman.—Paragraph 48 reads:

“I have been furnished with a schedule concerning the industrial loans from which it appears that there were no advances made during the year ended 31st March, 1947. Arrears, including interest accrued, due at that date amounted to £10,637 18s. 11d. as compared with £10,515 4s. 5d. on the 31st March, 1946. Included in the arrears is a sum of £10,582 19s. 11d. due by a company which ceased to exist in 1925. As stated in previous reports the realisation of such security as is held by the State was the subject of negotiations but owing to certain legal difficulties realisation cannot be effected.”

Mr. Maher.—This is a paragraph for information only. As I stated at previous meetings of the Committee, the arrears are largely in respect of the amount due by the Galway Granite Quarry Company which ceased to exist in 1925.

226. Deputy Sheldon.—Is there any hope at all of recovering this debt?

Mr. Maher.—Very little.

227. Chairman.—Apparently this was a secured loan?—It is a heritage from the Congested Districts Board days. It goes back to 1910. The first mortgage seems to have been taken on the place in 1910 and since then the whole debt practically represents interest. We are awaiting the State Lands Act which is on the stocks. If we had that Act we would sell the place. It is nothing but a piece of bookkeeping year after year, adding interest to this immense amount.

228. Until you have legislation it will be a recurring item?—Exactly. It is one of these properties that cannot be disposed of until the State Lands Act is passed.

229. You say the total sum of £10,582 is made up mainly of interest?— Practically all interest. It began with a loan of £2,000 advanced by the Congested Districts Board in 1910. Further advances were subsequently made by the Board. In 1925 the company disappeared.

230. What was the total amount of the principal advanced?—I have not got that in my notes but I will let the Secretary have it.*

231. Was there any repayment of principal at any stage?—Not within living memory.

Mr. Maher.—I have a note here that £7,000 was advanced at one time. The date is not given.

232. Mr. Deegan.—By September, 1925, the arrears and principal amounted to £7,136 and my recollection from some previous inquiries I made about it was that the principal was rather small and that almost the whole thing was interest. It has now gone up to over £10,000.

233. Chairman.—I suppose we can only pray that the required legislation will be introduced at an early date. With regard to subhead D.5—Machinery and Plant— the original Estimate was £4,820 and a Supplementary Estimates of £5,180 was introduced making the total grant £10,000. Expenditure, however, was only £4,779 9s. 7d., or £5,220 10s. 5d. less than granted. The note says that the saving was due to the delay in the delivery of machinery for the spinning plant in Kilcar. Has that plant arrived?—It has. It arrived shortly after the beginning of the next financial year and is now in operation.

234. With regard to subhead D.6— Materials—the total grant, including a supplementary grant of £45,000, is £118,904, and expenditure was £87,077 4s. 8d. or £31,826 15s. 4d. less than granted. The explanation is that the saving was due to the delay in the delivery of materials. Were these materials required for various industries or for one particular industry?—£26,700 of that saving was due to the fact that tweed yarns for which contracts had been placed were not delivered before 31st March, 1947. That yarn was required for the industry at Kilcar.

235. It has since come?—It has.

236. With regard to subhead D.10— Homespuns—the grant was £53,866 and expenditure £38,077 or £15,788 less than granted. The explanation in that case is that the stocks of wool on hands at the beginning of the year were sufficient to meet requirements and accordingly purchases during the year were restricted. I notice that under this subhead a Supplementary Estimate for £21,400 was introduced. I suppose it was introduced comparatively late in the year. The introduction of that Supplementary Estimate seems scarcely consistent with the explanation given in the footnote?—So far as I can see, that particular Estimate was not as close as we would have liked to have it. We seemed to have slipped somewhere. I understand that the saving there was practically all on materials. We had estimated for the purchase of materials for the manufacture of carded rolls. We were opening up the manufacture of carded rolls at Ardara, County Donegal, and over £14,000 was provided for the purpose. It began very slowly, however, and we spent very little. My figures show that we were quite correct in our guess or estimate as to expenditure on homespuns. We estimated for £37,000 odd and we spent £36,000, which was very close; but we were out in our Estimate of what we were going to spend on the making of carded rolls at Ardara. It was a new venture and we thought we would spend about £14,000 but we spent only a couple of hundred pounds. We got working very slowly but it has been in operation since and giving a lot of satisfaction. It began very slowly and a very small percentage of the total amount was spent in that particular year.

237. I suggest, therefore, that the footnote to subhead D.10 might be a little more detailed?—It could be more de-detailed. The subdivision into carded rolls and manufactured homespuns is something for ourselves, and the footnote might be more detailed.

238. Subhead D.12 refers to the leaden figures industry for which the Supplementary Estimate was £6,780 with an expenditure of £4,135, leaving a saving of £2,644 odd. That does not seem to call for any comment but perhaps you could tell us how the industry is getting on? —It is going all right now, but it began slowly. We were held up by a strike at the start—within the first fortnight or three weeks—due to some dissatisfaction with wage rates.

239. Where is the industry?—In Connemara, and it is going well now. It is actually manufacturing and we have a market for the products.

240. Do you keep ordinary trading accounts for it?—We do.

241. Has it completed its first year of trading?—It has, but I do not wish to say too much about it at the moment.

242. Deputy Kitt.—Could you say what is the number of employees?—There are 223 employees there.

243. Chairman.—I suppose, mainly girls.

Deputy Kitt.—No, boys and girls.

Mr. Deegan.—To the end of March, 1947, the number employed was 142. There are about 10 men casting these models.

244. Deputy Kitt.—Did the Vocational Education Committee in Galway give much assistance?—Yes. We got these workers trained by the Vocational Education Committee in Galway. They gave very valuable assistance and helped us in every way.

245. Deputy Brady.—Explaining the saving on subhead E.4—Carrageen—you say that the carrageen available was not of a suitable quality and accordingly purchases were restricted. Why was the carrageen not up to the usual standard? —I think it was a bad year.

246. Deputy Sheldon.—With regard to the Appropriations in Aid why, under subdivision (6) dealing with Miscellaneous Receipts, has one amount of over £300 estimated for been brought to account under subdivision (1) of the subhead? Why is this particular amount, which is estimated for under one subhead, brought to account under another?—I have a note in answer. Regarding the amount by which the receipts fell short of the Estimate—that is, the amount of £374 under subdivision (6)—it might be mentioned that the sum of £353 12s. 10d. was received and at first credited to I.(6); it was subsequently transferred to I.(6); it That is, it was exclusively in respect of sales of tweed and was transferred to its proper place in the Estimate.

The witness withdrew.

The Committee adjourned

* See Appendix VI.