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MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA(Minutes of Evidence)Déardaoin, 29th Bealtaine,1947.Thursday, 29th May, 1947.The Committee sat at 11 a.m.
Mr. J. Maher (An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste), Mr. C. S. Almond and Mr. F. T. McHenry (An Roinn Airgeadais), called and examined.ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN. 1. Deputy Brady.—I propose the reelection of Deputy Cosgrave as Chairman of the Committee. Deputy Blowick.—I second the motion. Question put and agreed to. DEPUTY COSGRAVE took the chair. Chairman.—I am obliged to members of the Committee for re-electing me as Chairman. I hope, with the assistance of the members of the Committee, Mr. Maher, Comptroller and Auditor-General, and Mr. O’Toole, the Secretary of the Committee, to discharge the duties of the office satisfactorily. VOTE 32—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR JUSTICE.M. S. A. Roche called and examined.2. Chairman.—As regards Subhead A.2. Film Censorship, how often does the Censorship Committee meet? Mr. Roche.—About once a fortnight. 3. Were the awards under Subhead E. in connection with acts of bravery, made under the recent Act for recognising deeds of bravery or was this a method of recognition which was in operation before that Act had been passed?—We introduced this form of recognition about two years ago as a result of the Dáil voting a certain sum of money for the purpose. The Committee decided that they would rather operate under an Act. Practically nothing was done until the Act was passed quite recently. The sum of £24 set out in the accounts for this year merely represented preliminary expenses before the Act was passed. 4. I notice that the extra receipts included £5,072 14s. 7d., representing fines under the Offences Against the State Act. Can you say the types of offence in respect of which the fines were imposed? —Various forms of blackmarketing, overcharging, illegal export of currency and that sort of thing. VOTE 33—GARDA SIOCHÁNA.Mr. S. A. Roche further examined.5. Chairman.—The Comptroller and Auditor-General has a note regarding this Vote, which is as follows:— “Subhead O.—Local Security Force: Expenses. Subhead P—Local Security Force: Capitation Grants (Grants-in-Aid). “34. As explained in the account, the savings on these subheads were due to the suspension of activities and subsequent disbandment of the Local Security Force. Following the decision to suspend activities as from 8th January, 1945, the general issue of uniform, etc., ceased, but deliveries of uniform from contractors continued until 22nd February, 1945. With the exception of certain items required by the Gárda Síochána for fatigue duties, etc., the balance of stocks remaining on hands have been disposed of by tender and the proceeds amounting to £2,300, approximately, will be brought to credit in the 1946-47 account. Emergency Powers (No. 61) Order, 1940 (Revocation of Part III) Order, 1945 (Statutory Rules and Orders, No. 258 of 1945), made on 12th September, 1945, provides that the unexpended balances of the Local Security Force district funds should be disposed of in such manner as the Minister for Justice directs. These balances were transmitted to the Department and credited to a suspense account pending a decision as to their disposal. The balance to the credit of this account on the 31st March, 1946, was £8,089 10s. 1d.” Deputy Dockrell.—Where did those balances come from? Were they subscriptions from members or State grants? —We granted the Local Security Force a capitation allowance, and they also had subscriptions of their own. When we wound up the Force, we gave them the bulk of the funds for a farewell ceremony. We kept the remainder. The Minister for Justice had power under an Emergency Order to do what he likes with those moneys. We had not even to consult the Department of Finance about them. However, although we had a free hand, we thought it better to put our proposals for disposal of the funds up to the Department of Finance. We have not yet reached a decision on the matter. 6. No money is included which was really subscribed by individuals?—It is, but we gave them more than they gave us. 7. Chairman.—The Force was disbanded on 8th January, 1945, but deliveries of uniform continued until 22nd February, 1945. How did deliveries of uniform continue after the disbandment of the Force? —The orders had been given and executed and we could not refuse to accept delivery. 8. What was the difference between the cost of the uniforms and the amount received when the uniforms were disposed of?—I am afraid I could not answer that question offhand. With your permission, I shall look it up and have a note inserted in the report.* 9. Deputy Sheldon.—There is a note to the account stating: “The expenditure under Subhead H. includes £31 5s. 8d. Northern Ireland driving licence fees and insurance premiums covering third party risks in Northern Ireland.” I am insured on both sides of the Border but I do not pay any extra premium?—We are not insured on this side. We take our own risks. But, when we go over the Border, we have to insure. 10. Chairman.—I notice that there was a considerable drop in anticipated expenditure under Subhead O.?—Yes, we wound it up before the end of the year. 11. In Appropriations in Aid, there is an item representing payment for services rendered by the Garda Síochána. Are these services outside the normal work of the Garda?—Yes. They are duties performed for bodies such as the Royal Dublin Society’s Show and the Hospital Trust premises, and football clubs. People who require stewards ask the Gardaí to act and we charge for their services. 12. Deputy Briscoe.—Item No. 8 of Appropriations in Aid refers to proceeds of sale of forfeited and unclaimed property. Does that include property found and surrendered to the police?—Yes. 13. It is held by the police for 12 months?—Yes. 14. Are you aware that, when people hand in lost property and it is not claimed within 12 months, the police do not notify the person who hands in that property? Would it not be better if there were a more serious approach to the matter, so that people who find valuable articles would hand them in? When not claimed within 12 months, property should not be disposed of without notification, at least, being given to the finder?—I could not say positively that the police do notify the finder but I think they do. It would be the obvious thing to do. I know that recently a large sum in notes was found by an honest citizen on the pavement in O’Connell Street. The finder took the notes to the Garda station and they were never claimed. At the end of 12 months, the Gardaí handed them back to the finder. 15. That is not the general experience. The finders have to come in and ask about them?—I shall take a note of that. 16. What are the “fees for accident reports”?—The police observe, say, the position of the two motor cars after a collision. They are only concerned with the possible criminal side of the accident. Later on one of the parties says: “We are going to take a civil action and we want to get a summary of what you saw.” We let them have it at a charge of 5/-. 17. This does not include public-spirited citizens who, when they see a fire starting, call up the fire brigade and the police? Do the police not take any credit for the services rendered to the insurance company by being promptly on the spot and probably saving them a large sum of money?—I do not think so. This subhead refers to motor accident reports. Deputy Briscoe.—I think the Department ought to consider that because, on numerous occasions, they have saved insurance companies substantial sums of money by being on the spot in time and notifying the fire brigade. 18. Deputy Dockrell.—There are some things which it is the definite duty of the police to do and that do not call for the payment of money from private concerns? —I suppose the fact is that the police, in the ordinary course of their duty, render all sorts of incidental services to people for which no charge is made. 19. Chairman.—I take it the 5/- charge is sufficient to cover the actual expenses involved in compiling the report?—Yes, that is the idea. 20. Is it possible to get a police report before a prosecution takes place, assuming that the police take proceedings?—My note says that these reports are not supplied in any case in which criminal proceedings are pending or where such procedure might be prejudicial to further inquiries. VOTE 34—PRISONS.Mr. S. A. Roche further examined.Paragraph 35, Comptroller and Auditor-General’s report:— “The statement of the manufacturing and farm accounts appended to the appropriation account has been examined, and local test examinations of the conversion books and other records dealing with manufacturing operations have been carried out, with satisfactory results.” 21. Deputy Briscoe.—As to Subhead D. of the Vote—Medicines, Surgical Instruments, etc.—in cases where a prisoner is very ill and requires an operation he is sent out to an hospital and looked after there. Under what heading do the expenses for that come?—Subhead K.— Incidental Expenses. 22. Does Subhead H.—Maintenance of Buildings and Equipment—include the manufacturing machinery, or just the general amenities of the prison?—My note says repairs and structural alterations in the prison. 23. I do not know what subhead the other items come under—that is where you have machinery in the prisons for manufacturing purposes?—Subhead P.—Manufacturing Department and Farms. 24. As to Subhead M.—Maintenance of Criminal Lunatics in District Mental Hospitals—are not all criminal lunatics sent to Dundrum Asylum, or are there some sent to other mental hospitals?— Dundrum settles its own accounts. When we send a prisoner there he passes out of our financial charge altogether. These are ordinary local mental hospitals. In last year’s report you will find that some Deputy asked a question about it and we answered it in that report, which I think is not published yet. There was a list of the hospitals and the numbers. 25. Would not the phraseology be different? Would it not be “maintenance of criminals who became lunaties,” rather than “criminal lunaties”?—I think it is copied from the old phraseology of the Acts. The Acts describe them as criminal lunatics. 26. When a man is sentenced as a criminal lunatic he is sent to Dundrum, but when he is sentenced to ordinary imprisonment and develops lunacy he is sent to an ordinary mental hospital?—A man sentenced as a criminal lunatic is not necessarily sent to Dundrum. It depends on the condition of the patient, whether he is a really dangerous lunatic who must be kept under constant observation, or whether he is just weak-minded. In the latter case he is sent to an ordinary mental hospital. 27. Deputy Dockrell.—This is for special hospital treatment which the prison cannot give?—The figure under Subhead M. is the sum which we paid to the various mental hospitals all over the country for the expenses of keeping insane prisoners. 28. Deputy Briscoe.—Is it under Subhead P. that you include the ordinary equipment for the prisons in which you do manufacturing?—Yes. My note says that equipment and tools are purchased under this subhead. 29. Deputy Sheldon.—The decrease in stock shown in the abstract statement on page 110 I suppose in due to a shortage of supplies of the materials used?—That is so. 30. It is not due to any drop in value? —No; it is due to shortage of materials. 31. Chairman.—Is the produce of the farms attached to prisons sold to the prisons or is it sold outside?—Both. We consume a great lot and we sell some. Some of it is luxury produce which we would not use in prisons. 32. Even in these times?—Yes. 33. Do you charge the prisons the market price?—We charge them the market price. Of course it is entirely a book-keeping transaction: no money passes. 34. Deputy Briscoe.—Is it the Dublin market price is charged?—No, the local market price. Might I say on this question that the annual reports on prisons deal more fully with prison industries than I could here and now. The last report for 1945 is worth reading by anybody who is interested and shows what kind of work is done. 35. Would it be possible to have copies of the report circulated to members of the Committee? Chairman.—It is in the Library. 36. There are a lot of documents in the Library that Deputies do not read?—I shall give half a dozen copies to the clerk to the Committee. 37. Deputy Sheldon.—Note 1 on page 109 says: “The contracts received from the Department of Posts and Telegraphs for the manufacture of mail bags were not as large as anticipated.” Does that mean that the prisons could have supplied more mail bags than the Department of Posts and Telegraphs asked for?—Yes. 38. I mention that because the Department of Posts and Telegraphs in their note stated that they were not able to get as many mail bags as they needed?—I suppose both statements could be true. We anticipated a larger demand than we got. We took all the facts into consideration and said to ourselves: “They will want so many.” They might not have wanted as many as we anticipated. On the other hand, they might have wanted more than was forthcoming.* 39. At a certain time?—Quite so. 41.—Deputy Briscoe.—Note 3, Subhead Q., says: “Several warders on retiring were allowed to remain for limited periods as tenants in prison cottages on payment of rent.” Does that include warders who retired before their time had expired to take up jobs abroad?—No, these were warders who served their term and who could not get accommodation for themselves and their families. As we did not want the cottages at the moment, we said they could stay on for six months. 42. You know that a number of warders have left the service to take up positions abroad?—I never heard of it. 43. Warders have left Mountjoy to take up positions abroad?—I never heard of a case. It may have happened, but it was not brought to my notice. 44. Will you find out whether any of the warders to which I refer are warders who have been given permission to retain the living accommodation for their families?—You may take it that the answer is “No.” If I find it is wrong, I will correct it. But it is in the highest degree improbable that we allowed a warder who retired voluntarily to take another job to retain his cottage. We would not do it. VOTE 35—DISTRICT COURT.Mr. S. A. Roche further examined.45. Chairman.—Paragraph 36 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General States:— “Three cases of misappropriation of public funds by District Court clerks are referred to in the notes appended to this account. In two of these cases the sums of £173 18s. 0d. and £4 12s. 6d. misappropriated were made good, while in the third case £140 3s. 8d. was recovered against a deficiency of £211 3s. 2d. and, in addition, £9 16s. 6d. balance of salary was withheld. The unrecovered balance of £70 19s. 6d. is charged to this subhead with the sanction of the Department of Finance. Proceedings were taken against two of the officers concerned and all three were dismissed the service. The misappropriations were effected by withholding sums collected in respect of fines and costs, and I understand that instructions have been issued with a view to obviating a recurrence of similar misappropriations.” [ need hardly say, Mr. Roche, that the Committee take a serious view of misappropriations and I would be glad if you could say what steps have been taken to prevent a recurrence?—That last line about steps being taken suggests that recently we have taken further steps. That is not quite so. Any steps we took were taken two years ago or more. I would like you to understand what the practical aspects of the matter are and how little we can do to stop that sort of thing. A District Court clerk down the country receives a fine of £10 and he puts it in his pocket and reports the fine to us at the end of the quarter as unpaid. We check up, but it is some time before we discover that it has peen paid. We cannot stand over every District Court clerk from hour to hour in order to see that he does not put fines in his pocket. It is some time before we discover that he has the £10 and then we prosecute him and dismiss him. If a clerk wants to be dishonest, we cannot stop him, unless we introduce so expensive a method of supervision that it would be ridiculous. It is an offence for the clerk to keep more than £10 in his possession. We allow him to accumulate small sums. Every time he is paid a fine of 5/-, he does not have to send the money to us, we allow him to keep up to £10. After that it is an offence to keep the money. That is one check. If he keeps on returning a fine as unpaid for more than two months, we make him produce a certificate by the local police superintendent that the warrant has been issued to the Superintendent of the Garda Síochána and he has not been able to collect. That is a second check and a very useful one. But nothing will stop a weak-minded, dishonest clerk from pocketing the money as he collects it. 46. In the case of a fine received by the clerk, is he obliged to give a receipt to the person who pays?—Yes, but there again you can imagine a countryman having to pay a fine of 2/6 for having no light on his bicycle. He simply pays and does not worry any further. If he does not get a receipt there is nothing more about it. 47. Deputy Briscoe.—Would it not be possible to introduce for that purpose the methods that are adopted in other Departments? If I want to get a passport or a travel permit I send a postal order or a money order because they will not take cash in the Department concerned. Would it not be possible to make it known that fines, no matter how small the amount may be, must be paid by cheque, by draft, by postal or money order made payable to the Minister for Justice?—I do not think that would work. If you go to the District Court in Dublin any day and see the District Justice imposing fines of 2/6 and other small amounts— he has a regular litany of those things—you can imagine the trouble there would be of getting those people to pay by money order or postal order. They produce half a crown, and if you say that you cannot take it, that they must get a postal order, they simply would not do it. 48. I do not know how it would be in the country, but I imagine it would be very easy here. We have to adopt that method with every other Department to which we make payments. Those paying fines could make a cheque or a money or postal order payable to the Department. I do not see why it could not be done here. I have been in the District Courts and I know the procedure there. A person is fined half a crown and he gets out of the dock or the witness box and goes to the clerk and awaits his turn to pay. He could get an order in the Post Office and send it in and if he does not pay it is just as easy for the Guards to go around with a warrant?—A dishonest clerk, in my opinion, will be prepared to cash that postal order in a public-house within half an hour. 49. Even if it is made payable to the Minister?—Even if it is.* Deputy Lydon.—If a man is dishonest you cannot do anything with him. Chairman.—If the precautions suggested by Deputy Briscoe were adopted, the people fined would not pay in court; they would leave the court with the money. 50. Deputy Dockrell.—We must bear in mind the sums lost during the year in relation to the sums received and I think the amount must be very small. There were only three cases in that year and I think to build up an extensive machinery to catch three people, who in any case would be caught, is not worth while?— That is what I feel, too. It is far better to resign ourselves to lose even £500 a year than introduce a system of payment by postal orders or cheques. As regards the District Court clerks who go wrong, there is this consolation, that we cannot lose any money in the ordinary course because the District Court clerk has to submit an insurance policy. 51. Deputy Brady.—Is there a fidelity bond?—Yes, the ordinary District Court clerk has to enter into a bond, so we cannot lose. 52. Deputy Blowick.—What is the total amount collected in fines?—It is indicated at the bottom of page 111 of the Appropriation Accounts. Chairman.—The amount indicated there is £32,900. Deputy Brady.—And we lost £71 of that? Chairman.—Yes, less than 1 per cent. 53. Deputy Brady.—Dealing with the Vote, there is one matter on which I would like some information. I understand that three district justices have died since the 1936 Act was passed. Under a particular section of that Act they had the option of taking a lump sum with a smaller pension on retirement or having a larger pension minus the lump sum. Could you tell me, Mr. Roche, the number who retired under each of these headings? —As Accounting Officer I have nothing to do with judicial pensions which are charged on the Central Fund. I do know that several justices elected to take pension on judicial terms, which means no lump sum on death or retirement. Two of them were unfortunate in their choice: they died in office and there was no lump sum forthcoming for their families. VOTE 36—CIRCUIT COURT.Mr. S. A. Roche further examined.Chairman.—Paragraph 37 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General states:— “As stated in the notes to the account, three cases of misappropriation of public moneys, involving sums of £299 3s. 2d., £64 13s. 0d. and £27 10s. 0d., respectively, which occurred in Circuit Court offices were brought to light during the year. In each case the amounts were made good and the offenders dismissed the service. Disciplinary action has been taken against certain officers who were responsible for the supervision of the offenders’ work.” 54. Deputy Blowick.—Under Subhead E.—Under Sheriffs—I am anxious to know whether there is a sheriff in each county or whether, as sheriffs die, we have ceased to employ successors?—The latter is the case. Under sheriffs are a dying race and as each man goes out there is no further appointment. That process has been going on for 21 years. There is an under sheriff in County Cork (not in the City of Cork) there is an under sheriff in County Dublin (not in the City of Dublin) and there is an under sheriff in Tipperary. These are the three survivors of the old under sheriffs. In the City of Dublin we have a new creation because we found in Dublin we could not carry out the plan of transferring the work to the county registrar—the county registrar was too busy—so we created a sheriff for the City of Dublin. We have a sheriff in Dublin and the three surviving under sheriffs to whom I have referred. 55. The policy is to get away from the office of sheriff in the counties?—Yes. The 1926 Court Offers Act says, in effect: “No further appointment shall be made to the office of under sheriff, and the duties of under sheriff shall be carried on by the county registrar when a vacancy occurs.” 56. Deputy Dockrell.—What are sheriffs or under sheriffs paid?—In the ordinary county they are paid?—In the ordinary county they are paid £400, half of which the State pays and half of which the county pays, and they make what they can out of fees according to the authorised charges. 57. Deputy Lydon.—Large numbers of the staffs in the Circut Court offices are unestablished?—I should say about half. 58. Deputy Briscoe.—In the case of the appointment of sheriff for the City of Dublin, do the fees that accrue to his office go to him or to the Department?— To him. He is in the same position as the old under sheriff. He is paid £600 a year by the State and that is practically all the State has to do with him as regards debt-enforcement. He runs his own business and collects his authorised fees and makes what he can out of it. 59. Does he still get emoluments from the pawnbrokers?—I do not know to what you are referring. 60. Deputy Briscoe.—At one time there was some perquisite attaching to the office of sheriff in connection with the pawnbrokers. Chairman.—That was in connection with the position of City Marshal?—Yes, it is the City Marshal. 61. Deputy Briscoe.—Have you any idea what the sheriff receives in fees each year?—No, we have no accounts at all. We pay him £600 a year, and I may say we do not pay that merely as a subsidy over and above his fees. The State gets a good deal of value from him quite outside the collection of debts. He has very important duties to perform in summoning jurors in Dublin. 62. Deputy Briscoe.—The answer of the Accounting Officer has created some confusion in my mind as to the duties of these officers. Is it not the fact that the county sheriff summons jurors but the city sheriff no longer summons jurors? Is that not done by the officer who now fills what was formerly the office of the Clerk of the Crown and Peace?—In Dublin this is a rather complicated business. There are several classes of jurors involved. With the Chairman’s permission I shall not weary the Committee with a description of each class but, briefly, there are jurors for civil cases in the High Court, jurors for criminal cases in the Central Criminal Court, jurors for civil and criminal cases in the Circuit Court and jurors for the very rare cases of formal lunacy inquiries in the High Court. The matter is a very intricate one, but the sheriff does summon the bulk of the jurors in Dublin. Only recently he told me that it cost him £50 in hard cash to pay postage alone on the summonses. 63. He did not tell you how much he was getting in fees?—No, I did not ask him. VOTE 37—SUPREME COURT AND HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE.Mr. S. A. Roche further examined.64. Deputy Sheldon.—In connection with Subhead FF.—Purchase of Law Books—was that grant handed over to the Law Library—No. That was a separate transaction. The judges represented to us that when they wanted to get hold of a statute or some law book and sent for it to the Library, they sometimes found that somebody had already borrowed it with the result that there was considerable delay. They desired to set up a private library for the judges, particularly of all the statutes and law reports. It happened in 1945 that a small collection of law books which belonged to a deceased lawyer was for sale. We purchased it and installed it in the courts at a place convenient to the judges. 65. It just occurred to me as rather strange that the full amount of the grant was spent and that there was no unexpended balance?—This was a supplementary Vote of £450 and we knew exactly the amount we required before we applied for it. We knew that we could purchase this private library for £450 and, therefore, we applied for that amount. 66. Deputy Dockrell.—Will you continue adding to the Library?—I suppose that is inevitable, but the bulk of the work is done. VOTE 38—LAND REGISTRY AND REGISTRY OF DEEDS.Mr. S. A. Roche further examined.67. Chairman.—Is the work in the Land Registry and Registry of Deeds now up to date?—No. There is some difficulty there at the moment. We were doing very well for a couple of years but then the work began to increase as Land Commission activities got into full swing again. We have run up against another obstacle in that we find a difficulty in getting draughtsmen or mappers. If you have not sufficient mappers the whole thing is held up. We cannot get mappers. Neither we, the Land Commission nor the Ordnance Survey can get sufficient competent mappers at present. It seems that not as many people are willing to come in as mappers as in the old days. 68. Deputy Lydon.—Is it a question of the salary which you are paying to these people?—I think that question would be more appropriate for the Department of Finance. 69. Chairman.—Is it a question of salary or is the difficulty that you have not sufficient personnel of the required type available in the country?—The Department of Finance is concerned in this matter very much. I am not trying to throw the blame on their shoulders but, as they are also responsible for the Land Commission and the Ordnance Survey, they would have a wider outlook on the problem than we have. It may be that mapping is a dying art. There are certain types of workers who were plentiful 50 years ago and whom one finds it very difficult to replace to-day. 70. Deputy Blowick.—Has the activity of the Land Commission in vesting holdings increased the work in this particular Department?—Yes. 71. Has the recent burst of activity in the Land Commission paid special attention to the vesting of holdings?—During the war the work of the Land Commission was largely suspended and its staff lent to other Departments. Accordingly the Land Registry had a comparatively easy time. Now the Land Commission has recommenced its activities with the result that there is increased work in the Registry. 72. My question was really directed towards getting information on another point. When a holding is vested by the Land Commission in the purchaser, immediately that has to be registered with this particular section?—That is right. 73. And that thereby increases the work of this Department?—Yes. When you say “increases the work”, the fact is that that is their work. That is what the Land Registry is there for. 74. And the tendency recently has been to increase that work?—As I said, they had a comparatively easy time during the war when the work was not coming in. Now we have a lot of new work and also this difficulty about mappers. 75. Are they called draughtsmen or mappers?—Officially, draughtsmen: I call them mappers as that is the name by which they are know to the general public, and the other title is liable to be confused with that of the legal gentlemen in the office of the Parliamentary Draftsman. 76. Deputy Lydon.—I would suggest that it is the lower scale of salaries that prevents recruitment of personnel?—I know the work has always been graded low as regards pay. 77. Chairman.—Mr. McHenry, we are anxious to know what are the views of the Department of Finance in regard to this matter? Mr. McHenry.—We are prepared to take it up with the Department. At the moment, I could not tell you exactly what the position is. 78. Chairman.—We might postpone further examination until the matter has been discussed between the Department of Justice and the Department of Finance. Mr. Roche.—I know our position for the last six months or longer has been that we want mappers and cannot get them. I believe the same position obtains in other Departments. Whether increased salaries would help or whether there are no longer such workers available, I do not know. Deputy Lydon.—I suggest that there are plenty of people available if the salary offered was considered satisfactory. VOTE 61—POSTS AND TELEGRAPHS.Mr. R. J. Cremins called and examined.79. Chairman.—Paragraph 63 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General states:— “Subhead E.2.—Conveyance of Mails by Road. “In 1944 representations were made for the revision of the terms of the existing contract between the Department and Córas Iompair Eireann for the performance of certain mail services by horse-drawn vehicles in Dublin in view of the increased and increasing costs of operating the services. Agreement was reached in the year under review by which, with the approval of the Department of Finance, an increase of 45 per cent. on the basic rates under the contract was granted in respect of the calendar years 1945 and 1946, subject to the rate of necessary expenditure in operating the services being maintained; the reimbursement of any advance in wages affecting the services in question under any future award by any Body set up by the Government to determine such matters, and the payment, ex gratia, of £3,000 to cover any losses which may have been sustained on the services up to the 31st December, 1944. As stated in the account, the ex gratia payment of £3,000 was made in the year under review and is charged to this subhead.” Mr. Maher.—The purpose of the paragraph is to call attention to the change made in the arrangements in January, 1944. Chairman.—Was any examination conducted of the accounts of Córas Iompair Eireann before this agreement was made? —Yes, a minute examination. 80. Chairman.—Paragraph 64 of the Report reads:— “Subhead G.2—Uniform Clothing. “As shown in Part III of the Estimate, provision is made under this subhead for expenditure on the purchase of stocks which are in common use by the Post Office and other Government Departments. The receipts from other Government Departments are, in accordance with the normal practice, deducted from the gross expenditure, the net sum being charged to this subhead. As the receipts from other Government Departments in the year of account exceeded the gross expenditure because of inability to replace stocks owing to Emergency conditions, a sum of £11,970 was, as an exceptional measure and with the sanction of the Department of Finance, credited to Appropriations in Aid.” Mr. Maher.—That is again due to the exceptional circumstances outlined in the Report. Chairman.—You are satisfied with the method adopted? Mr. Maher.—Yes, I think it was the only alternative in the special circumstances. 81. Chairman.—Paragraph 65 of the Report reads:— “Losses by Default, etc. “The losses borne no the Vote for the year ended 31st March, 1946, amounted to £2,524 14s. 9d., of which £2,274 15s. 1d. was charged to subhead H.2. and £294 19s. 8d. to subhead 0.6. Classified schedules of these losses are set out at pages 209 and 213. At pages 212 and 214 particulars are given of 24 cases in which cash shortages or misappropriations amounting to £229 10s. 9d. were discovered; the sums in question were made good and no charge to public funds was necessary.” 82. Chairman.—Paragraph 66 states:—“Stores. “A test examination of the store accounts was carried out with generally satisfactory results. As in previous years, difficulties arising out of the Emergency continued to affect the normal working arrangements for the purchase of stores. In order to meet the urgent requirements of other Government Departments existing contracts were, in some cases, extended to meet additional demands, while other contracts were either allocated without competition or divided between contracts on the basis of output. In addition to the engineering stores in Appendix II as valued at £266,551 on the 31st March, 1946, engineering stores to the value of £472 were held on behalf of other Government Departments. Stores other than engineering stores held at that date were valued at £247,859, included in this amount being a sum of £66,186 in respect of stores held for other Government Departments.” 83. Chairman.—Paragraph 67 reads:— “Revenue. “A test examination of the accounts of the postal, telegraph and telephone services was carried out with satisfactory results. Sums due for telephone services, amounting in all to £95 0s. 10d., were written off during the year as irrecoverable.” Paragraph 68 in the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General:— “Post Office Savings Bank Accounts. “The accounts of the Post Office Savings Bank for the year ended 31st December, 1945, were submitted to a test examination with generally satisfactory results. For various reasons it was not possible for the Department to compute the exact amount of the total interest credited to depositors in the year and the figure shown in the accounts has, therefore, been estimated. I understand that any necessary adjustment will be made in a subsequent year.” 84. Chairman.—Has any final figure been reached?—No. The difficulty is shortage of machines and staff. We hope to get machines before very long. As the members of the Committee know, the delivery of all these things at the present time is uncertain, but there will be an ultimate adjustment. 85. Paragraph 69 in the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General:— “Post Office Factory. “A test examination was applied to the accounts of the Post Office Factory with satisfactory results. Including works in progress on 31st March, 1946, the expenditure on manufacturing jobs during the year amounted to £14,838, expenditure on repair work (other than repairs to mechanical transport) amounted to £14,556, and expenditure on mechanical transport repairs to £2,468.” 86. Paragraph 70 in the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General:— “Telephone Capital Account. “The cost of maintenance of premises which house telephone exchanges is borne on Vote 10, Public Works and Buildings, while any capital expenditure included in the works carried out by the Commissioners of Public Works is charged to the Telephone Capital Account. Owing to the difficulty and expense involved un segregating capital expenditure from the cost of maintenance in the numerous minor works carried out on these premises, it has been decided, with the approval of the Department of Finance, that the full cost of any additional work which does not exceed £100 will be borne on the Vote for Public Works and Buildings.” 87. Deputy Sheldon.—On Subhead G.1. —Stores—a point was raised with the Accounting Officer for Prisons with regard to mail bags. His Department held that the demand from the Department of posts and Telegraphs for mail bags was not as heavy within the year as they had expected, and I gathered that they could, actually, have supplied more. In the Note to this subhead it is mentioned: “Offset by the failure, owing to emergency conditions, to obtain supplies estimated for viz., mail bags (£2,330) ?—I will have to go into that. My impression is quite the contrary—that for various reasons the prisons were not able to supply us with all the mail bags we could have taken. That is my information, but I will look into it. That is the most I can say at present. 88. Chairman.—On Subhead Q.1., does the Department of Posts and Telegraphs supply meteorological services for civil aviation?—It supplies the engineering side of it. The staffing is done by the Department of Industry and Commerce. 89. Deputy Sheldon.—I see under Appropriations-in-Aid: “receipts from British Government for staffing of wireless stations.”?—These are the telegraph stations at Malin Head and Valentia. 90. Deputy Brady.—I see under Appropriations-in-Aid a note about “Void postal orders.” Are these orders that were not cashed?—Yes, within the proper period. 91. Deputy M. E. Dockrell.—What happens eventually? Do people ever get the money for them, or have they to go through the process of making a claim for them?—These are moneys in respect of which no claim was made. 92. And are you wiping them out?— Ultimately, if a claim is not made, the money goes into the Exchequer. 93. After how long a period?—Three years. I should say that if a person claimed at any time afterwards he would get the money. 94. Deputy Blowick.—Even after the three years?—Yes, if he satisfied us that everything was all right. 95. Is the supply position such at the moment that you can make any prediction about telephone facilities for rural districts? I understand that the Department has under consideration at present a scheme to provide a telephone line to every rural post office in the country?— That is what you might call a five year plan. We hope to have it done in five years. There are 900 post offices altogether which are without a telephone service. We propose doing them at the rate of from 180 to 200 a year. So far as the general telephone situation in rural districts is concerned there is a very big amount of work involved. We are trying to get our trunk service made as efficient as possible because there would be no use in taking on additional subscribers at the outside ends if the main line communications were not as satisfactory as possible. We are going ahead and that is all I can say. 96. I take it that the rural districts will be accommodated as soon as the trunk lines are capable of meeting the increased traffic?—Broadly speaking, that is correct. 97. It is not a case, I suppose, of taking a county at random and doing it?—No. When we start in a district we will try to finish it. Any other method would mean moving the gangs from the district and back again. The engineering people will say what is the most suitable mode of selection so far as the areas are concerned. When we start in an area we will do our best to finish it. 98. Would it be too much to ask when the County Mayo is likely to be taken? —I could not answer that. VOTE 62—WIRELESS BROADCASTING.Mr. R. J. Cremins further examined.99. Chairman.—On Subhead E.—Have the restrictions on the use of electricity for broadcasting been reduced now?— The restrictions have been eased. What the position may be during the coming summer one cannot say. 100. I notice a substantial increase in respect of advertisements. I take it they are sponsored programmes?—Yes. The witness retired. VOTE 41—LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND PUBLIC HEALTH.Mr. J. Collins (Secretary, Department of Local Government), Mr. T. J. McArdle (Secretary, Department of Health), Mr. D. J. O’Donovan (Secretary, Department Of Social Services), called and examined.101. Chairman.—On this Vote there is a note by the Comptroller and Auditor-General on page XVI:— “38. The receipts during the year included £144 19s. 10d. realised from the sale of portion of the equipment provided for emergency cooked food centres, and £103 1s. 6d. received for the hire of some of the articles of equipment and utensils. The cost of the equipment, charged to subhead L (3) of the Vote in previous years, was £6,741 13s. 1d. and the receipts from the sale and hire-age up to 31st March, 1946, amounts to £1,566 9s. 11d.” Are these cooked food centres still operating? Mr. Collins.—Yes. When I say they are operating, the centres that are operating are centres that are worked by the Dublin Corporation through voluntary bodies. This equipment was got in case the Corporation might have to work directly themselves and open kitchens. That was not found necessary. Some of the equipment has been sold. Some has been sold to the Corporation for these bodies. Last year, I think you wanted a note on that. We prepared a note as to what has happened to the equipment. Some of it was sold to the Dublin Board of Assistance, some to the Dublin Milk Board, that is, milk cans, and some to the Dublin Corporation. That was before July, 1946. In July, 1946, it was decided that the time had come when we could sell the remainder, and we got authority to do that in the order, first, to Government Departments that would require any of it, secondly, to local authorities and, if local authorities did not require it, it would be disposed of through the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. £3,000 worth was sold to the three bodies I have mentioned—the Board of Assistance, the Dublin Milk Board and the Dublin Corporation, and we have the remainder on hands. We did not proceed with the sale on account of the possibility last winter that it might be needed, but now the sale will probably go on. I will put in the statement.* 102. Was Department of Finance sanction secured for that procedure?—Yes. 103. Paragraph 39 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General is as follows:— “39. A test examination has been applied to the Motor Tax Account with generally satisfactory results. The certificates and reports of the Local Government Auditors who examine the motor tax transactions of local authorities were scrutinized, in so far as they were available, but in ten cases this audit had not been completed at the date of my test examination. The gross proceeds of Motor Vehicle, etc., duties in 1945-46, including £7,511 1s. 7d., attributable to fines collected by the Department of Justice, amounted to £982,602 16s. 7d. This sum also includes fees amounting to £3,736 16s. 0d., received on behalf of the Commissioner of the Gárda Síochána under the Road Traffic Acts (Parts VI and Parts VII (Fees) Regulations, 1937 (Statutory Rules and Orders, No. 92 of 1937). A statement of the gross and net receipts of the Motor Tax Account, and of the payments thereout to the Exchequer, appears on pages 6 and 7 of the Finance Accounts, 1945-46.” Have the audits in the ten cases outstanding on the date of the test examination been completed?—Seven have been received. There are three still outstanding—Roscommon, Wexford and Wicklow. They will probably be received very soon. There has been no irregularity disclosed. The Auditor mentioned one small matter in the case of one county, that the paying-in slips had not the stamp of the bank. That has been rectified. That is the only point that was raised. 104. Can you say whether the Motor Tax Account has shown an increase on last year?—It has. It has been showing an increase. It is anticipated that the increase will continue. 105. A substantial increase, I think?-Yes. There are more commercial vehicles being licensed. 106. I think it is now greater than it was in 1941-42?—Yes. 107. Deputy Sheldon.—In regard to Subhead H. 4., I suppose, Mr. McArdle, some progress has been made with the survey of human nutrition? Mr. McArdle.—Yes, considerable progress has been made. Surveyors have been in several counties—Limerick County Borough, Galway, Sligo and Donegal. They expect to be able to complete the survey in about a year from now. 108. Deputy Blowick.—Could Mr. McArdle say how does H.2. arise? For what is the sum of £10 under Subhead H.2.?—That is a token vote. There are two items in it of £5 each. One £5 is included to enable us to pay the expenses of the State Bacteriologist in travelling abroad to inspect places where drugs are manufactured and the second £5 is included to enable us to meet expenditure on equipment and material for tests made by the State Bacteriologist. 109. Chairman.—Are the grants under Subhead J. 2. made directly to local authorities or from the Department to certain voluntary bodies?—No, they are made direct to local authorities—public health authorities. 110. Deputy B. Brady.—With regard to Subhead Q., what is the difficulty in getting Irish-speaking girls under this nursing scheme?—We find it very hard to get them. We circularise the schools and usually we get a number of applicants—19 or 20—in response to the circular. Then the candidates are examined by an inspector of the Department of Education and an inspector of our Department. The inspector of the Department of Education decides whether they are native Irish-speakers and the inspector of our Department decides whether they are suitable. They pick out a good number of them and send them to the hospitals and when they go to the hospitals a number of them are rejected by the hospitals. In that particular year—1946-46—there were 48 candidates. We held examinations in Galway, Ennis, Letterkenny, Tralee and Cork. Thirteen of those candidates were examined and selected as suitable for a further test. Six girls were sent to St. Laurence’s Hospital, five to Galway and two to Cork. Of the six girls sent to St. Laurence’s Hospital, four were accepted. Two commenced on the 8th June. Only four girls attended for the examination in Galway Hospital and one was declared successful. One of the girls interviewed at Cork was not considered suitable. The other has commenced training. That means that we had in that year accepted six for training. 111. It seems an extraordinarily small proportion of the number of applicants?—It is a pretty difficult test. The girl must be a native Irish speaker and she must be able to show that she is not able herself to bear the expense of training and she must have sufficient education to follow technical lectures in nursing. Then she must be physically fit. It is not so easy to fulfil all those requirements. 112. Deputy Sheldon.—I suppose Subhead U. is a subhead which will disappear under the new scheme which Bord na Móna takes over?—That Vote is still with Local Government and Mr. Collins will deal with it. Mr. Collins.—This will be the last year that the county councils will be dealing with turf directly, but for a time they may still have to acquire bogs compulsorily for the purpose of bog work by Bord na Móna. 113. Chairman.—Under the scheme as operated, did the initiative rest with the county councils for bog development or did it rest with the Department?—The county councils, when they go into a bog that is capable of development apply for a grant if they find a road is necessary. 114. Deputy Sheldon.—The decreasing amount which was required would indicate that the development was fairly well advanced and that not so much was needed?—Development has been going on practically for six years and, of course, the past work still holds good and, naturally, even if the county councils retained the power to cut turf and sell it. the development grants would not be so large in a few years’ time as they were in the beginning. 115. No Maintenance is allowed for in this?—No, it is a purely temporary arrangement, just what was necessary to get the turf out—the least that was necessary, I suppose. 116. The point struck me that it might be possible that a road would be made into a bog out of such a grant, and made in a hurry, and made so badly that in half a year it would be in a bad state and would have to be remade. In that case, would the county council have to bear the cost themselves?—No. 117. They could get another grant?—The county councils will lose no money by cutting turf. Deputy Sheldon.—In spite of their doubts. VOTE 42—GENERAL REGISTER OFFICE.Mr. T. J. McArdle further examined.118. Deputy Sheldon.—On Subhead E., have the numbers of applications for birth certificates, etc., been maintained?—The application for birth certificates are still increasing. VOTE 44—NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.Mr. D. J. O’Donovan called and examined.119. Chairman.—I should explain for the benefit of the Committee that the Department of Local Government has recently been divided. Portion of it is now under the Department of Health and portion under the Department of Social Welfare. For that reason, it was deemed advisable that the accounting officers at present acting in those Departments should come here, as they are more familiar with the particular accounts in question. 120. Chairman.—On Subhead I, under the recent increases, are all the benefits payable to beneficiaries under the Widows’ and Orphans’ Pensions Acts now paid in cash?—They will be paid in cash as from the 4th July next. 121. Will account be taken, in respect of those payments, of the former value of those vouchers?—We approached it in an arbitrary fashion. We estimated 2/6 at the time to represent the value of the food vouchers and 2/6 is the figure being continued now. It is not proposed to change that. 122. What will be the value of the voucher in cash?—Each voucher will be replaced by a cash payment of 2/6, subject to a minimum increase of 50 per cent. of the basic pension previously payable. VOTE 27—WIDOWS’ AND ORPHANS’ PENSIONS.Mr. D. J. O’Donovan, called.
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