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MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA(Minutes of Evidence)Dé Céadaoin, 4ú Meitheamh, 1947.Wednesday, 4th June, 1947.The Committee sat at 11 a.m.
DEPUTY COSGRAVE in the chair. Mr. J. Maher (An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste) and Miss Máire Bhreathnach (An Roinn Airgeadais) called and examined.VOTE 45—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION.Micheál Breathnach called and examined.123. Chairman.—I notice there was no expenditure under Subhead C?—The Committee ceased to meet in 1939 and did not meet again until October, 1946, so there was no expenditure in the meantime. They are going ahead now with the preparation of vocabularies on building construction and engineering. 124. On extra receipts payable to the Exchequer, from whom was the recovery of £9 6s. 8d. made in respect of the unestablished messenger?—From Córas Iompair Eireann. 125. On Subhead D., what are the functions of the Registration Council? —Do you mean the Secondary School Registration Council? 126. On page 134 all it says is “Registration Council?”—It decided questions as to the registration of secondary teachers. VOTE 46—PRIMARY EDUCATION.Micheál Breathnach further examined.127. Chairman.—There is a note by the Comptroller and Auditor-General on page xvii, as follows:— “Subhead A.1.—Training Colleges. “40. Reference was made in paragraph 36 of my last report to the temporary closing of the principal training college for men owing to unemployment amongst national school teachers. This college was re-opened in the school year 1945-46 when 35 students were admitted and the licensed number, by reference to which part of the grants payable are calculated, was fixed, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, at 135. The payments to this college in the year under review, including £200 in respect of ground rent, amounted to £6,320, which is charged to this subhead.” Can you say if the number of students has shown any increase?—In the current academic year, 84 students were admitted to St. Patrick’s Training College and we hope by 1947-48 to have it filled to capacity. 128. Chairman.—The Report continues:— “Subhead A.3.—Preparatory Colleges, etc. “41. The average boarding cost per head for the school year 1945-46 ranged from 11/11 to 16/3 per week, showing an increase in each college as compared with the previous year. The average fee paid by the students for the same school year was £14 8s. 0d. as compared with £14 16s. 7d. for the previous year. Accounts have been furnished to me showing the receipts and expenditure for the school year 1945-46 in connection with the farms and gardens attached to five of the colleges. Receipts exceeded expenditure except in the case of one college which had been taken over by the Department of Defence and was not handed back until September, 1945. I am in communication with the Accounting Officer on certain matters arising out of the examination of these accounts.” Chairman.—Have you anything to add to that, Mr. Maher? Mr. Maher.—I have received a reply from the Accounting Officer on one or two of the headings which we raised and he has informed us that other matters are still outstanding and he proposes to send us a reply at an early date. These queries related in the main to the receipts and payments at the various farms attached to the colleges, the acreage under each crop, how the animals were purchased and sold, the prices obtained and the yields of the various cereals and root crops grown. 129. Deputy Sheldon.—I see the boarding cost went up and the fees went down. Is no relationship established between the boarding cost and the fees?—The boarding cost is based on something that is very tangible and inevitable, but the fees depend a good deal on the economic position of the parents of the students. 130. Chairman.—What is the full fee?— £40 a year. 131. The average was less than half that?—Full fee would be paid by only 25 per cent. About 35 per cent. pay no fee at all and the remaining 40 per cent. pay a reduced fee. It has to be graded according to the economic circumstances of the students. 132. Deputy Moran.—Who decided it? —The Department, after due investigation of the circumstances of the parents. 133. Chairman.—What is the nature of the control exercised by the Department over these farms?—The principal is responsible to the Department, but the Department appoints a steward directly. He is subject to the principal of the College, who is the responsible officer and all communications are between the Department and the principal. 134. Are any inspections carried out by an agricultural expert?—Yes, we had an agricultural expert in the Department of Education; but unfortunately he has retired and an arrangement that might be fully satisfactory has not been arrived at yet. The function that was fulfilled by that agricultural expert is now being fulfilled by one of our inspectors who is a farming expert, but, of course, he has a good deal of other work to do and cannot give as much attention to the matter as the previous man gave. 135. When did the other man retire?— About two or three years ago. The situation is being examined and we are thinking of enlisting the assistance of the Department of Agriculture. 136. I notice there is considerable variation in the yields of crops from different farms and, in particular, of the average milk yield?—It would be very hard to give a hard and fast answer to a matter of that kind, as one would need to investigate it locally and take the full local circumstances into account. We are in communication with the principals with regard to the whole matter, but have not quite succeeded yet in reaching a stage when we can give a full answer, based on knowledge of actual local conditions and circumstances. 137. Are you in communication with the Department of Agriculture with a view of having a person appointed?— No, we have not got that far. We are considering the matter, as an alternative to having an agricultural expert of our own, which might not be so easy. We could hardly find full work for an agricultural expert of our own. The gentleman who used to do it was also an inspector of rural science. 138. Deputy Dockrell.—What is the acreage of these farms?—Coláiste Brighde, Donegal, 127 acres; the Dingle College, 86 acres; Tourmakeady College, 80 acres; and Ballyvourney, 31 acres. 139. Deputy Sheldon.—All the land would not be arable?—No. In some of them, only a small proportion would be arable. 140. Chairman.—I note that in connection with Coláiste Brighde calves were sold at as low as £1 each. Do you know what ages the calves were?—They would be on the safe side of two years. 141. They would need to be very much on the safe side?—There, again, it is impossible to arrive at a proper opinion about that transaction without knowing the local conditions. I am very certain that the authorities of Coláiste Brighde and the steward who looks after the farm did not throw calves away. If he sold a calf for £1, it was because he had to sell it for £1. Deputy Brady.—They were probably animals which had just been calved. 142. Chairman.—Dropped calves, yes, but, according to Mr. Breathnach, they may have been anything up to two years of age. Mr. Breathneach.—I must admit that I do not know. I am not a farming expert. 143. Chairman.—I notice also that two cows were sold for £8 10s. each?—There could be circumstances in which £8 10s. would be a good price—if they were old and had ceased to yield milk. I could not answer without knowing the exact circumstances and I am getting the exact circumstances as rapidly as I can. 144. I suppose you will furnish the Committee with the particulars when you get them?—Certainly. “Subhead C.1.—Salaries, etc., of Teachers. “42. During the period of the Emergency the average attendance at a number of schools was adversely affected by conditions directly attributable to the emergency to an extent which would have led to reduction in staff under the normal operation of the rules. With a view to avoiding such reduction in staff it was decided, with the consent of the Department of Finance, to introduce a temporary regulation with effect as from 1st January, 1945, permitting the substitution for the actual attendance in any quarter of a figure arrived at by assuming that the attendance bore the same relation to the number of pupils on the rolls as was the case in the corresponding quarter in the year ended 30th June, 1939.” 145. Chairman.—Is that rule still in operation?—Yes. The result was that two assistants were appointed who would not otherwise have been appointed and ten assistants and five junior assistant mistresses retained their posts during the period from 1st January, 1945 to 31st March, 1947. 146. Is it proposed to revise the rule in view of the ending of the emergency, or is the emergency deemed still to continue in this connection?—Yes, for the present at any rate. 147. Deputy Sheldon.—Have the actual attendances shown any improvement recently?—They are not getting any worse, they are not declining, but I would not say that there is very much of an increase yet. 148. It would not be possible that the retention of this rule would lead to a certain amount of carelessness in seeing that the children come out?—I do not think so. Who is to see that the children come out?—It is not the business of the teacher. 149. Perhaps not in law, but very often in practice teachers, for the sake of their capitation grant do make an effort to see that children attend?—Yes, but still I do not think there would be any danger of their using the rule in that way. There might be a possibility, but we have not had any evidence that it has been used in that way. 150. There is a loss of incentive in a certain respect?—There is, but it really is not their business. 151. Deputy Moran.—Does the rule apply to both urban and rural schools?— Yes. 152. What are the emergency conditions which would affect the attendance of children in urban areas?—The emergency conditions pressed fairly heavily on the poorer people in urban areas and there would be the questions of clothes and boots. 153. Deputy Lydon.—And, in some cases, transport?—And transport also. 154. Chairman.—Do the attendances still appear to be adversely affected?— Not quite so much perhaps as previously, but still sufficient to justify the retention of the rule, for the moment at any rate. 155. Deputy Moran.—I do not quite accept the position with regard to urban areas. In rural areas, children may be kept back for the purpose of helping at turf work and agricultural work, but I do not see the reason for the retention of the rule in urban areas. 156. Chairman.—Can you say if the urban areas are at present adversely affected?—They are somewhat still, and then, of course, in addition to the questions of transport and clothes and boots, there is the question of gas, shortage of fuel and things like that which make it difficult for people to send their children to school regularly. 157. Deputy Moran.—I suggest that these conditions apply only to the City of Dublin. In towns throughout the country, there is no question of gas or transport. 158. Deputy Lydon.—I beg to differ from Deputy Moran. In the case of Salt-hill in County Galway, the nearest school is a mile and a half to two miles away at least. “43. Owing to inadvertence the papers relating to a teacher who had retired from a school in Northern Ireland were not transferred when the Government of Northern Ireland took over the administration of the educational services in the Six Counties in 1922, and payment of her pension continued up to the date of her death in March, 1946, when the matter came to light. The payments made in error amounting to £2,043 have been recovered from the Government of Northern Ireland. Of this sum, £1,958 will be brought to credit in the Appropriation Account for 1946-47, the balance being adjusted in the account under review.” 159. Chairman.—Did any question of interest arise in this case?—I am afraid we would not have any chance of getting interest on it. 160. Have the Department of Finance any views on this? Miss Bhreathnach.—We do not usually charge interest on such payments, except where there is a special statutory provision. For instance, in respect of a teacher’s pension, there is a statutory provision by which the teacher has to repay with interest, but in other cases we would not give interest or require interest. 161. Deputy Sheldon.—This was the case of a teacher. Did interest come in from the statutory point of view? Interest applies only in the case of teachers’ salaries; it does not apply to teachers’ pensions? Miss Bhreathnach.—No, except where there is special statutory provision for our paying interest or claiming interest, we should not do so as between ourselves and somebody else. Mr. Breathnach.—This was really an inter-Governmental payment. 162. Chairman.—I suppose there are no similar cases?—No. We have investigated the matter and I am in a position to state that there are no other such cases. 163 Chairman.—The paragraph of the Comptroller and Auditor-General, dealing with the same subhead, continues:— “The prescribed age for retirement of women teachers is 60, but the practice prior to October, 1938, when the unemployment position amongst trained teachers became acute, had been to allow women who were giving efficient service to continue to the age of 65. Since then they have been required to retire on reaching the age of 60 years or completing 35 years’ service, except in cases of special hardship. In view of the improvement in the employment position of national teachers it was decided, with the approval of the Minister for Finance to allow women teachers who reach 60 years after 31st December, 1944, or had less than 35 years’ service at that date and whose service is efficient, to continue in the service up to 61 years of age or the completion of 36 years’ service, and in cases of special hardship for a further period. The number of women teachers who retired on pension, otherwise than through disablement or inefficiency, in the year ended 31st March, 1946, was 72, as compared with 116 in the previous year. Mr. Maher.—That paragraph has been inserted for information only. 164. Deputy Brady.—The note to subhead A. (4), which relates to grants to colleges providing courses in Irish for primary teachers, states: “The colleges were unable to take advantage of the scheme owing to lack of students.” Did the primary teachers not take an interest in the courses in Irish provided for them? Mr. Breathnach.—The position is very different now from what it was when these colleges were first established. Many more of the teachers are qualified than were qualified then. We have preparatory colleges and training colleges where all the work is carried on in Irish and there is not the same necessity for primary teachers to attend those courses. 165. Deputy Brady.—You will, probably, be able to estimate more closely in the future. The grant amounted to £3,600 and the saving was £3,050?—We are making alterations in the regulations governing the payment of grants to these colleges. 166. Deputy Moran.—Is it proposed to close after this season the old Irish college at Tourmakeady?—We have not the control over the closing or opening of it. It is run by a local committee. They must present us with a fait accompli—a college actually in existence—and, if they qualify for the grants, we make them. 167. Chairman.—Under this scheme?— Yes. 168. Deputy Sheldon.—How does Subhead A.A. arise—Repayment of Refund of Cost of Training?—It arises in connection with another subhead. Each student in a training college has to pay an admission fee of £25. That may be advanced in whole or in part by the State. Anybody receiving an advance of that kind has to sign an agreement that he or she will return the money when earning. This was the case of a person to whom such an advance had been made. I think that the person afterwards went into the Civil Service. He found that there was a defect in the agreement, that he was really not legally responsible under the agreement, and the money had to be refunded. The Department of Finance allowed us to open a special subhead in 1940 in connection with this matter. That will disappear when full recoupment will have been made. This money is being paid to that person?—Yes. He had paid it himself previously. 169. There was a defect in the agreement and it has to be given back?—Yes. 170. Chairman.—Under what headings is expenditure incurred in connection with Subhead B.—Examinations?—There are six examinations conducted by the Primary Branch—entrance examinations to the training colleges, final examination in the training colleges, the preparatory college examination, primary-to-secondary scholarship examination, primary schools’ certificate examination, and teachers’ Irish certificate examination. 171. Deputy Lydon.—Could the Committee get a clear idea as to the qualifications to receive grants under Sub-Head C.8.—Bonus to Parents or Guardians of certain pupils in the Gaeltacht and Breac-Ghaeltacht?—The children must be between six years and 14 years —the limits of the school period for primary schools. Irish has to be the language of the home and children claiming the grant should attend school regularly and make satisfactory progress. Of course, they must be fluent speakers of Irish. 172. Chairman.—Does the Department carry out inspection in the homes?—If necessary. In cases of doubt, they have done so. The inspector goes to the houses in such cases. 173. Deputy Lydon.—Is the child supposed to know any English?—We should not instruct the inspector to examine the children in English. It is really an examination in Irish. 174. I submit that inspectors have put questions to children in English?—If so, it would be with the object of ascertaining whether their knowledge of Irish was genuine or not. If there were no reply, the inspector would have no grievance and could not inflict a penalty on the child for not knowing English. 175. That is why I put the question—if a child is supposed to have any English? —There is no specific regulation as to that. The positive thing is that the child must be a fluent speaker of Irish and that Irish must be the language of the home. If there is any question of English, the child must be immeasurably more fluent in Irish than in English. 176. Chairman.—English is no bar?— It is not. We do not tackle the matter from that angle at all. 177. Deputy Moran.—Who compiles the list of people in each Gaeltacht area who qualify for those grants; when is the area inspected and who rules in the matter? —The teacher sends in an application at the instance of the parents of the children attending his school. 178. I came across cases in Tourmakeady in which there was never an inspection?—They applied and there was no inspection? 179. Yes?—That is very peculiar. If we had particulars of the case, we should certainly investigate it. Deputy Moran.—I have already submitted particulars and I was wondering what the system was. 180. Chairman.—I take it that the system is that the teacher makes application?—At the request of the parents. 181. Inspections are held occasionally?— Every applicant is inspected. 182.—Is each family inspected as well?— Not necessarily, except in cases of doubt. 183. Deputy Moran.—Take a Fíor-Ghaeltacht area where every house in a number of villages would qualify for this grant. Is there an inspection carried out in that case?—There is an examination of the children and, if it is quite obvious from the examination of the children that the conditions must be such as we require, there would not seem to be any necessity for examining the parents. But, if there is any doubt, the inspector goes to the houses and has gone to the houses on innumerable occasions since the scheme was initiated. 184. Chairman.—Assuming the child is fluent in Irish and, as may happen, the parents are not fluent, would the child be entitled to the grant?—That would be a very hypothetical case. One would be very unlikely to get a child from a home where Irish was not habitually spoken who would have the hall-mark of the native speaker and be a fluent speaker of Irish. It would be very hard to conceive of such a case. 185. Deputy Lydon.—I know of such a case in Menlough village?—I should like to inspect the child before I should agree that there could be such a case. 186. In the village, nothing is spoken but Irish?—Surely the child lives with his parents? Deputy Lydon.—He does, but he is fluent in Irish, although he knows English. I suggest that, when the Oireachtas voted this money, it never was the intention that an inspector should put a question in English to the pupils. Deputy Sheldon.—I think that that is a fair test. If the child were more fluent in English than in Irish, a certain amount of suspicion would attach to the case. 187. Deputy Lydon.—I heard of a question put to a child in English which seemed to me to be ridiculous—“what would you bring in if your mother sent you for a sod of turf”?—The period for which this grant is held is eight years. A child might be losing its Irish gradually during that period and the inspector would have to satisfy himself every year that the child was eligible for the grant. 188. Chairman.—It does seem a bit difficult to understand how an inspector could ascertain the extent of a child’s knowledge of Irish by putting a question in English?—It is very difficult for anybody who has not been an inspector to realise the devices to which an inspector may sometimes be forced in order to arrive at a proper opinion about the matter at issue. It is very easy to criticise when you are not in the same position as an inspector. The inspector has to make a hard and fast rule to which he must be able to adhere and which he must be able to defend. I could not tell you why an inspector might do any particular thing in any particular circumstances, but I could almost guarantee that no inspector would do anything without the object of arriving at a proper opinion. 189. Deputy Lydon.—It is very bad for the pupils because they adopt a certain amount of subterfuge, and, if put a question in English, will not reply?—I am certain that no inspector would set a pupil a question in English unless he was doubtful about his knowledge of Irish. Deputy Lydon.—I can produce proof of it. 190. Deputy Dockrell.—The idea prevails that, if a person who is a stranger goes into one of these areas without a knowledge of Irish and asks a question in English, it is very difficult to get an answer. The reason given is that the people are afraid that the person putting the question is an inspector?—I should say that that is a very wholesome fear. 191. Deputy Sheldon.—As to Subhead E.—Appropriations-in-Aid—we have already discussed the question of training college fees, but I should like to know if the repayments are made by the students. They are not deducted automatically from any earnings, are they?—They are deducted by arrangement with the student. 192. They do not actually receive their full emoluments and pay something back? —Not until they have paid it back. VOTE 47—SECONDARY EDUCATION.Micheál Breathnach further examined.193. Deputy Moran.—As to Subhead A. 4—Bonus for Choirs and Orchestras— where is this money expended?—In secondary schools. 194. Is it open to all secondary schools? —Yes, if they present choirs and orchestras. 195. Chairman.—Have they to pass a prescribed test or have they merely to have an orchestra?—There is a regular examination. We send around people every year to examine them. 196. Is the course laid down?—Definitely. 197. Deputy Sheldon.—As to Subhead F.—Courses in Irish—would they be the same courses as are referred to under Subhead H.5.—the Appropriations-in-Aid— summer courses in Irish? There is a considerable drop in the expenditure because the number of teachers who attended these colleges was smaller than expected, whereas under Appropriations-in-Aid, there is only a small drop in the fees paid. Are they two different things?—No. These are fees paid annually for the attendance of secondary teachers at the courses. Then there was a special course for secondary teachers in 1945 in Dublin. Those attending the special course had to pay the fee themselves. That would account for it. That was not a free course. 198. Then actually the two matters do not relate to quite the same thing?—Not quite the same thing. Grants are given for secondary teachers attending Gaelic colleges in the same way as in the case of primary teachers. We give the college so much per hour for a certain minimum attendance of a secondary teacher. In addition to that we established a special course ourselves which was more advanced and more academic. It included literature, poetry and other things and those attending that had to pay a special fee. 199. Deputy Moran.—Who selects the Irish text-books that we are dealing with here?—The text-books that you are dealing with there are original texts in Irish or texts translated into Irish. How do you mean who selects? 200. Who selects the particular ones?—It is open to anybody who wants to present an original text to write it in Irish and send it to the Department. The Department then passes judgment on it and accepts or rejects it. In the same way, if an Irish scholar thinks he can translate a text, it is usual in the case of a translator that he should make his proposal first to see whether the book will be regarded as suitable. Then, if he were told he could go on with it, the translation is submitted to be judged. 201. Could you say what proportion of this £1,215 for the sale of Irish text-books is in respect of translations or original works?—The number of translations would be few. The greater part of it would be for original work. I could not give you the exact proportion. 202. Deputy Sheldon.—As to the Erasmus Smith Endowment Fund, on page 148, I notice that the balance went up considerably. Was there any difficulty about spending the money or is the Department trying to accumulate extra funds for some purpose?—I understand it arises from the fact that building operations had to be postponed owing to lack of material. 203. Deputy Dockrell.—There are a number of endowments such as Lismore Endowment (Earl of Cork Scholarship.) On what basis are these scholarships given? Are they limited to certain areas or to necessitous persons or what?—They are limited to certain areas. 204. Is there a special examination held? —No, it is on the result of ordinary examinations. 205 In a certain school?—Yes, and within a certain area. There is a trust connected with each of them. 206. And of course the conditions vary? —The conditions must be fulfilled also. 207. Who sees that the conditions are carried out?—The Department sees that the conditions are carried out. 208. I notice in connection with the Lismore Endowment that the High Court of Justice seems to have come into it. Does the court watch the proceedings in any way or has a report to be made?—I understand that the court just makes the order and allows us to administer it. 209. In pursuance of the order?—Yes. VOTE 48—TECHNICAL INSTRUCTION.Micheál Breathnach further examined.210. Deputy Sheldon.—As to Subhead C.—Training of Teachers—I see that the number of trainees who attended the woodwork course was less than anticipated. Has that decline continued?—This course in woodwork and other courses of that kind are not continuous themselves. They may lapse for a year or two and then be taken on again. Consequently, the number attending at any particular time may vary up or down. There is no law governing the attendance. It would depend also on the number who are already qualified, the number seeking qualifications and the energy of an individual if he desires to improve his knowledge or better himself. 211. I understand that when people who have taken technical courses come to get a job there are trade union rules by which they can be adversely affected. I was wondering if any such thing as that applied to woodworking?—This course would be for teachers in woodwork. 212. Deputy Moran.—Has the Department any responsibility for the location or erection of new vocational schools?—The Department has a certain amount of responsibility, but it is always expected that there will be a local demand or a request for a school. 213. My point is that you may have a local request emanating only from a particular member of a vocational education committee for the area which he represents. There have been some white elephants, as I would term them, erected throughout the country. There is at least one in my county. I want to know are these matters examined carefully and does the Department accept responsibility?— Yes, they are examined carefully; but of course the Department, seeing that attendance at a vocational school is not compulsory, assures itself beforehand that there is a possibility of an adequate attendance. It cannot, however, enforce an adequate attendance. If the people are not willing to benefit by the facilities offered, the Department can do nothing in the matter. 214. One particular school which comes to my mind is the school on Achill Island, which should never have been erected. Public funds are poured into these buildings. I am suggesting that before these schools are started there should be some test by way of temporary classes over a period to make sure that there is a necessity for such a school?—Surely the necessity depends almost entirely on the school-going population. If the school-going population is there and if the Department has erected a school and the people do not avail of those facilities, what can the Department do about it? 215. Chairman.—Who decides the location of a new school?—The Department, in consultation, of course, with the local committee, and on the advice of responsible local people. I do not know whether there was an adequate school-going population in Achill. but I am sure that was investigated before the school was built and if there was any likelihood that there would not be an adequate attendance the school would not be built there. There is no question of compulsory attendance at vocational schools; there is no means by which people can be forced to go there. The Island of Achill ought to be a suitable place for a vocational school. 216. Deputy Moran.—The school has been erected there and nobody attends it. I want to ensure that, before further elaborate schools are erected, care will be taken that there will be an adequate attendance. Some committees, to my knowledge, have elaborate programmes for the erection of schools without due provision being made about the attendance of pupils. The attendance is, as Mr. Breathnach says, voluntary and, I think, before these sums are sunk in these schools, some method should be adopted to ensure that the location is suitable and that there will be a good attendance. There is no purpose in erecting them and having them closed for want of attendance?—Might I ask whether there would be, ordinarily speaking, an adequate number of school-going pupils in Achill to ensure a proper attendance at this school? Is it that the children are not there or that they will not attend? 217. There is competition from another school run by an Order?—We cannot oppose that. 218. I suggest that, before other schools. are erected, before the programmes of vocational education committees are embarked upon, there should be some test over a period—say for 12 months or two years—by itinerant teachers in order to see if there is a genuine demand for the erection of such schools?—It is quite possible that there was a considerable demand for the erection of the school in Achill. 219. Deputy Moran.—Anyone who has experience of a local vocational committee will know that each member, if it is a question of erecting a school in his village or town, will advocate it for the sake of the local plaudits, but that is a different matter. Whether the erection of these schools—pouring thousands of pounds into them—is justifiable is a matter that deserves serious consideration. I suggest the Department should make a full examination of local circumstances before any money is expended on the erection of these schools. VOTE 49—SCIENCE AND ART.Micheál Breathnach further examined.Chairman.—Paragraph 44 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General states:— “In the report on the accounts for the year 1941-42 and previous years reference was made to expenditure incurred in connection with the preparation of a glossary of words and phrases in use in the Gaeltacht area. The agreement with the author provided for the reversion to him of the coypright in the work if the Minister for Education did not publish it within a specified time. As publication was not undertaken it was deemed advisable to acquire the author’s rights in the work, and, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, a sum of £300 was paid to him as compensation for the surrender of his rights under the agreement and is included in the charge to this subhead. The total payments in respect of the work amounts to £5,166, of which £4,608 10s. 0d. was paid to the author and £577 10s. 0d. to the editor.” 220. Deputy Dockrell.—Will this work be published?—It has been decided not to publish it immediately. 221. It is a monumental work?—It is a monumental work. 222. The author, I think, is dead?—He is dead. 223. He finished it?—Yes, he finished it. There seems to be a kind of idea that the State has not got the value of its money in this case, but I think that point of view is not justified at all. 224. I never thought that. I think the gentleman who carried out that work was an outstanding scholar. I understand it is a tremendous piece of work and is of great interest to grammarians and others. It is quite outside the usual run of dictionaries and glossaries?—It is. 225. Chairman.—Why is it not proposed to publish it?—It is regarded more as a storehouse from which we may draw, and we draw from it. We are producing an English-Irish dictionary and we are drawing from this work of Seán O Caomhnaigh for that purpose. We have to consider at the moment the cost of printing and the difficulty of getting things printed, and we prefer to use the work in that way for the time being. But that is not to say that it may not be published at a later date. 226. Deputy Dockrell.—What would the cost of printing be?—It would be very high. There was an estimate made, but I forget what it was. 227. Chairman.—I have a statement here which says that in 1943 the cost of publication of 500 sets of 12 volumes would be £3,000?—Yes. 228. Deputy Dockrell.—As a national work it would be worth while undertaking it?—I believe that eventually it will be published. 229. When the cost of printing and paper goes down?—Yes, when the difficulties of printing are surmounted. I have examined the work and I have no hesitation in saying that the money expended on it was well worth while. 230. Chairman.—Is it available to interested parties outside the Department? —We have not had any application of that kind, but I am sure we would not object to placing it, with definite guarantees, at the disposal of anybody legitimately interested. “Subhead C.C.—Centenary Commemoration of Thomas Davis and the Young Ireland Movement. “45. Provision of £9,000 for expenses in connection with the celebrations in commemoration of Thomas Davis and the Young Ireland Movement was made in a Supplementary Estimate and payments during the year under review amounted to £6,283 17s. 8d. Approximately one-half of this sum was expended on the production of a film in connection with the celebrations. The general arrangements were made by a committee of the Government but the organisation of some of the functions was carried out by outside bodies and the expenditure was certified by the committee as fair and reasonable. Receipts in the year in respect of some of the functions amounted to £464 2s. 6d. and this sum is brought to credit as an Exchequer extra receipt. As stated in a note to the account, the amount charged to this subhead includes, in addition to expenditure on State projects, payment of a grant of £100 made, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, towards the expenses of a centenary commemoration organised by a representative local committee in Cork.” 231. Chairman.—Have you any details of the expenditure?—I have. With regard to the Davis film, the amount issued was £3,341 17s. 8d. The statue is not paid for yet. The commemoration booklet cost £215 18s. 0d. There is no expenditure with regard to the acquisition of pictures of Irish historical interest during that particular year. 232. When you refer to the statue, is that the bust?—Yes. 233. I notice £116 8s. 5d. was spent on a plaque in Baggot Street?—Yes. 234. And £219 19s. 4d. was spent on the laying of a foundation stone in College Green?—Yes. 235. Were tenders invited for the erection of the plaque?—I understand the Board of Works undertook the plaque portion of it and that the placing of the plaque involved scaffolding and other incidental expenses. 236. Deputy Sheldon.—Have you the cost of the plaque, apart from its erection?—I have not. I am told the design was an expensive matter. At the moment I have not a note of the cost of the plaque. 237. Chairman.—I notice that the two concerts were a failure financially?—Yes. 238. Deputy Sheldon.—Will there be any receipts from the film, or have there been any receipt?—There will be. It is being sent overseas and there will be receipts then. 239. Chairman.—I thought the film was shown here?—I have not a note as to whether it was shown on a commercial basis, but I do not think it was. 240. Deputy Brady.—With regard to Subhead B.1.—Publications in Irish—the late Father O’Flanagan was engaged in compiling histories of Irish counties. Could you tell me what is the position now in that respect? Has the work been finished or is anybody continuing with it?—When Father O’Flanagan died it was discontinued in so far as it was not continued in exactly the same way. What was then done was that people were invited to write local histories, say the history of a county or the history of an area greater or less than a county. The late Father O’Flanagan devoted himself entirely to county histories. Under the new scheme there was no one person put in charge of the thing in the same way as he had been, but persons were invited to write the history of any kind of a composite historical area in the country. The work should be about 60,000 words normally, but if it were of special merit it might be shorter or longer. It could be written in Irish or English, but it would be published in Irish only. When we got such work written in English we had to translate it into Irish for publication and we set up a special committee to deal with the manuscripts as they come in, including three distinguished historians —Father John Ryan, Dr. Dudley Edwards and Dr. MacLysaght. They deal with the manuscripts as submitted. The usual procedure is that anybody ambitioning to write such a work sends in a couple of chapters first and a general plan of the work. That is pronounced upon by the small committee. If they are satisfied, they tell the writer to go on and complete the history. When the history is completed they adjudicate on it again. They read it again and see if it is worthy of publication. They might have a dozen manuscripts on hand at present. 241. Deputy Brady.—Are you getting a good response to that?—One could not expect a very wide response, because the number of people qualified to undertake the work would be few. The response is reasonable and some of the matter submitted is very good. 242. Have you many of the counties covered now?—We have Roscommon, Monaghan, Kilkenny, Kerry, Sligo, Cork, Wexford and Donegal. Father O’Flanagan, before he died, had material collected for Mayo and Dublin, but he had not submitted a continuous text. 243. Deputy Dockrell.—What does Subhead B.5.—Preparation of Revised Addition of “Handbuch des Alt Irischen” refer to?—That was a volume on old Irish produced in German originally by Professor Thurneysen. Then some years ago it was decided that a translation into English would be valuable. Professor Thurneysen felt he would not be quite competent to produce a translation in English by himself so he asked the assistance of one of our people. We sent Dr. Dignan, who is now Professor of Archaeology in University College, Galway, to assist him. They collaborated for a considerable time in Germany. The text came back translated and is actually on the market at present 244. Deputy Sheldon.—Arising out of Subhead B.10., was the film of the ceremonies in connection with the inauguration of the President taken purely as a record or was it taken for the purpose of exhibition to the public?—I believe it was shown immediately after the event, but I think the chief function of the film was as a record. 245. Deputy Dockrell.—Has the Department any details of the expenditure in connection with Subhead B.9.—The National Film Institute of Ireland?—We have no details as to the expenditure. It is an outside body on which we are merely represented. It will be noted that this is a grant-in-aid. We have two representatives on the committee. They are gathering a library of films that will be useful in schools. 246. Deputy Sheldon.—In connection with the Appropriations-in-Aid, has interest in genealogical researches been maintained?—I am assured by Dr. MacLysaght that it has been maintained. VOTE 50—REFORMATORY AND INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS.Micheál Breathnach further examined.247. Chairman.—Paragraph 46 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General states:— “Grants to reformatory schools are made on a per capita basis by reference to the number of persons under detention. The amounts charged to this subhead include grants paid to a reformatory which was opened in April, 1944, for the reception of female offenders. As stated in a note to the account, the grants to this school in the year under review were, with the sanction of the Department of Finance, based on a notional number of 40 offenders, the average number under detention for the period being 13.” 248. Does that average still remain low? —The average is still low. Of course, this is a case in which we hope it will remain low. 249. Are any contributions received from local authorities in respect of offenders?— Yes, in the same way as for any reformatory. 250. Is this particular school a reformatory or an industrial school?—It is a reformatory. It was set up to deal with a special type of offence. 251. Deputy Sheldon.—The numbers sent to reformatories show a decline each year and we are told here that this year the number of committals was less than anticipated. Has that tendency continued?—Yes. 252. The reason I mention that is that there seems to be an impression in some places that justices are refraining from sending children to reformatories for some peculiar reason. When other people, their neighbours, think they should send them there, the justices are reluctant to send them. Is there any tendency in the Department itself to feel that the present reformatory system is not very good and would need to be improved and that justices should be asked not to send offenders to these reformatories unless it is absolutely necessary?—Of course there is a definite type that they must send. Anybody over 12 and under 17 who is convicted of an offence punishable in the case of an adult by penal servitude or imprisonment, must be sent to a reformatory. 253. Deputy Dockrell.—I think that following the establishment of children’s courts a different approach was made to the treatment of juvenile offenders. Possibly following that policy fewer young persons are being committed to reformatories?—Of course we have no say in the matter of committals at all. We have to deal with them when they are committed. There is a feeling amongst a lot of people that the children’s courts are handling them in a very wise fashion. I do not know what the neighbours may think about that, but a new method is being tried out. VOTE 28—DUBLIN INSTITUTE FOR ADVANCED STUDIES.Micheál Breathnach further examined.254. Chairman.—I notice that there was an unavoidable delay in filling vacancies in the institute. How many professors and scholars resigned for that year?—I do not think anybody resigned in 1945-46.* 255. Have the vacancies referred to in the details of the Vote been filled?—Except vacancies of recent occurrence, I think all the vacancies have been filled. VOTE 40—CHARITABLE DONATIONS AND BEQUESTS.Mr. W. Smyth called and examined.256. Deputy Sheldon.—How do the Appropriations in Aid under this Vote arise?—This is entirely one fund entitled the Embezzled Charities Fund. It was transferred to the Commissioners with the object of enabling them to prosecute people who are charged with embezzling charitable donations. It was surrendered a number of years ago to the Department of Finance and all our costs in court actions not directed to be paid out of the charity funds are provided for out of the Vote. Most of the costs come out of the charitable funds. 257. Chairman.—What is the amount of the fund at the moment?—It is well over £1,000. 258. Deputy Dockrell.—Where would we see an account of the funds administered by your Department? They must run into enormous sums?—The total funds on the 31st March, 1946, amounted to £1,486,915 17s. 0d. Cash amounts to £9,045 19s. 7d., and we have dollars to the amount of 2,500. Each year the amount increases. This year the increase was £14,120. All these particulars are contained in the Report of the Commissioners. Their Report for the year ended 31st December, 1946. is entitled the 99th Report. Under the statute a certain number of copies must be presented to the Oireachtas and laid on the Table of the House. The last Report was duly sent about a fortnight ago. 259. Deputy Moran.—The expenditure under Subhead C.—Travelling and Incidental Expenses—appears to be very small. What travelling was done?—In effect, none. That is nearly all for telephones, telegrams, incidental expenses and other costs. VOTE 21—STATIONERY AND PRINTING.S. B. Ó Faoilleacháin called and examined.260. Chairman.—On this Vote, there is a note by the Comptroller and Auditor General, as follows:— “As noted in the account, the sum of £2,260, being the net loss involved in the disposal of books, forms, etc., printed in connection with the Evacuation Scheme organized by the Department of Defence during the Emergency, was written off with the sanction of the Minister for Finance. The stocks of books, forms, etc., were prepared in 1942-43, and held in store for immediate use in the event of evacuation. During the year under review it was decided that it was no longer necessary to retain these stocks, and they were, with certain minor exceptions, disposed of as waste paper. The stocks, which cost £2,839, realized £579.” Mr. Maher.—That paragraph is for information only, Mr. Chairman. 261. Chairman.—In the event of another emergency, Mr. Whelehan, have any specimens been retained?—Yes, Mr. Chairman. Five per cent. were retained by direction of the Department of Finance. Of course, it is not necessary to add for the information of the Committee that it was essential that these should be in readiness. 262. Chairman.—Has this Irish translation of the New Testament been published yet?—No, Mr. Chairman, it has not been printed yet, but considerable progress has been made and disbursements were made last year to the editor. It is impossible to have it printed at the moment, not due to lack of copy, but to lack of facilities for printing. 263. Is there still difficulty in that matter?—It is extremely difficult. It is more difficult at the moment than it has ever been. There is only about a 60 per cent. production. 264. Do you anticipate any improvement in the near future?—I do not. 265. Deputy Dockrell.—In connection with supplies for public Departments, I presume the Department is the buying agency for all Government Departments for paper. Is that the case?—That is so, with the exception of some small paper for stamp purposes which is purchased by the Post Office to meet their own requirements. 266. Does your Department buy machines, and things like that? Are there many calculating and adding machines in use in Government Departments generally?—They are in use, not perhaps to an extraordinary extent, but there is a considerable amount of machinery in use in the Land Commission, for example, which I should say probably carries the bulk of such machinery at the moment. To a lesser extent calculating machinery is used in the Post Office and Revenue Departments. The Hollerith system has been installed in the Land Commission. 267. Is the mechanisation dealt with by each individual Department, or does your Department buy for all the Government Departments?—We rent the Hollerith machinery. They do not sell; they rent; and the renting is done through us, by contract. 268. Do you purchase calculating machines?—We purchase. 269. You are the purchasing agents for office equipment for the whole Service?—That is right. 270. Chairman.—I notice that the sales of stationery office publications and Oireachtas papers, including debates, exceeded the estimated figures Can you say, Professor, if the Dáil Debates are keenly sought?—I am afraid that would be an invidious question for me to answer. Some debates are sought. When there is, say, exuberant eloquence, we sometimes find an increased demand, also when a debate covers a matter of very general interest. Sometimes we find certain groups, trades groups, interested in a particular subject which has been under debate and they order in advance numbers of copies. But, generally, since the emergency has passed, there has been a greater number of our publications available for the public, and our sales have increased. During the emergency we were restricted as to number. 271. Deputy Dockrell.—Do many members of the general public give annual orders for all copies to be sent to them? —I should not like to be held responsible for within a hundred, but recently in dealing with another matter we came to the conclusion that we had standing orders for perhaps 400 copies of certain items, but I do not think we would have standing orders for 400 copies of the debates. I should say they would be for perhaps a couple of hundred. The witness withdrew. VOTE—39 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE.Mr. D. Coffey called and examined.272. Chairman.—Were any documents acquired during the year?—Very few documents were acquired during the year. It is a matter largely of chance, what comes on the market. The only purchase of any interest was some notes on Commissions in the Irish Regiment in the reign of George II. That is the principal thing. 273. Deputy Moran.—Who decides as to what is to be purchased?—Primarily, I do. I suppose. It is left to the Deputy Keeper, but it is very much a matter of what is offered or what one hears of. In the case of a large purchase one would have to get sanction for it, but in the case of smaller purchases, up to a few pounds, we use our own discretion. The witness withdrew. VOTE 22—VALUATION AND BOUNDARY SURVEY.Mr. C. C. McElligott called and examined.273. Deputy Sheldon.—I see here that the Estimate of the proportion of cost of annual revision of valuations to be paid over by the several counties and cities was exactly realised. Is it a fixed amount that is paid by each county?—Yes, it is a fixed amount payable by each county and city. It is fixed under the Valuation (Ireland) Amendment Act, 1874, and the local Government (Adaptation of Irish Enactments) Order, 1889, Article 37 (O). 275. Deputy Moran.—What is the number of inspectors available to go to the country for this purpose?—We have 28 valuers in all and most of them go to the country. 276. How long does it take normally for a re-valuation to be effected in your books?—A re-valuation of the whole country would take years. An annual revision of valuation has to be done between June and 1st March in the following year, because all our revised valuations must be issued annually on the 1st March. There is no provision for any delay. We must get all our valuations out on the 1st March each year. In the year 1945-46, we revised approximately 27,000 valuations. VOTE 23—ORDNANCE SURVEY.Mr. C. C. McElligott further examined.277. Deputy Sheldon.—To what other bodies than the Stationery Office does the Department sell maps?—The Ordnance Survey sells maps to agents, traders and the public, and also supplies maps to Government Departments free of charge. 278. In competition with the Stationery Office?—The Stationery Office is one of our agents. 279. I notice that receipts from sales of maps were more than double the receipts of the Stationery Office?—They are from agents, traders and the public. There were 25,000, approximately, maps sold to agents, traders and the public for £3,279. 280. Deputy Lydon.—Your Department is bringing the maps up to date?—Yes, we are constantly revising, every year. 281. Deputy Sheldon.—Is it only in towns and cities?—We revise where there is any great change due to new building, new construction, new schemes of some kind or other. We attack that particular place and try to keep our maps as much up to date as possible for that particular area. There are remote rural areas that we have not been near for 40 years. 282. Deputy Sheldon.—The farm improvements scheme is making a big change in the division of fields, making small fields into big ones. The witness withdrew. The Committee adjourned. |
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