Committee Reports > List of Committees > Joint > 2005 > Committee on Finance and the Public Service > Annual Report of the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service, 2004

TITHE AN OIREACHTAIS

An Comhchoiste um Airgeadas agus an tSeirbhís Phoiblí

TUARASCÁIL BHLIANTÚIL 2004

Feabhra 2005

HOUSES OF THE OIREACHTAS

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

ANNUAL REPORT 2004

February 2005

Table of Contents

1. Content and Format of Report

This Annual Report covers the period from 1^st January to 31^st December 2004.

The Report has been prepared pursuant to Standing Order 84 (3), (5) and (6) (Dáil Éireann) and Standing Order 69 (3), (5) and (6) (Seanad Éireann) which provide for the Joint Committee to-

• undertake a review of its procedure and its role generally,
• lay minutes of its proceedings before both Houses, and
• make an annual report to both Houses.

At its meeting on 16^th February, 2005, the Joint Committee agreed that its review of its procedure and role generally and minutes of its proceedings should be included in this Annual Report.

2. Functions and Powers

The Dáil Select Committee was established by Order of Dáil Éireann of 16^th October, 2002, to consider, in respect of the Departments of the Taoiseach and Finance, Bills, Estimates for Public Services and such proposals contained in any motion concerning the approval by the Dáil of international agreements involving a charge on public funds.

Under the same Order, the Dáil Select Committee was enjoined with a Select Committee of Seanad Éireann, established by Order of Seanad Éireann of 17^th October, 2002, to form the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service. The principal functions of the Joint Committee are to consider –

• public affairs administered by the Departments of the Taoiseach and Finance, including, in respect of Government policy, bodies under the aegis of those Departments,
• matters of policy for which the Taoiseach and Minister for Finance are officially responsible,
• related policy issues concerning bodies which are partly or wholly funded by the State or which are established or appointed by Members of the Government or by the Oireachtas,
• statutory instruments made by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance,
• such proposals for EU legislation and related policy issues as may be referred to it,
• strategy statements laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance,
• annual reports and accounts, overall operational results, statements of strategy and corporate plans of bodies under the aegis of the Departments of the Taoiseach and Finance or bodies which are partly or wholly funded by the State or which are established or appointed by Members of the Government or by the Oireachtas.

The Orders of Reference of the Dáil Select Committee and the Joint Committee are set out at Appendix 1.

3.Chairman, Vice-Chairman, Convenors and Membership

Deputy Seán Fleming was elected as Chairman of the Joint Committee on 13 November 2002. Deputy Michael Finneran was elected as vice-Chairman of the Joint Committee on 13 November 2002. The Chairman of the Joint Committee is also Chairman of the Dáil Select Committee.

Deputies M.J. Nolan and Paddy McHugh* are the Convenors of the Committee. Their primary function is to ensure the availability and attendance of Members or their substitutes for meetings of the Committee and, in particular, to ensure Members' availability for divisions.

The Members of the Joint Committee are listed at Appendix 2.

* Deputy McHugh replaced Deputy Liam Twomey as a member of the Joint Committee and as Convenor on 12 October 2004.

4. Meetings, Attendance and Recording

Meetings of the Joint Committee and Select Committee took place in the committee rooms in Leinster House 2000. Meetings were in public unless otherwise ordered by the Committee.

Televised coverage of public meetings of the Committee was broadcast live within the Leinster House complex and was available for subsequent public broadcasting.

Official Reports (Parliamentary Debates) of the public meetings of the Committee have been, or are in the process of being, published. These may be purchased from the Government Publications Sales Office, Sun Alliance House, Molesworth Street, Dublin 2. The Official Reports may also be viewed on the Houses of the Oireachtas website at www.irlgov.ie/oireachtas.

Copies of other reports published by the Joint Committee may be obtained from the Clerk, Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service, Kildare House, Kildare Street, Dublin 2. These reports are listed in paragraph 7. Recent and future reports may also be viewed on t he Houses of the Oireachtas website.

5. Number and Duration of Meetings

The Joint Committee met on 26 occasions in the period under report. These meetings involved more than 52 hours discussion.

The Dáil Select Committee met on 14 occasions in the period under report. These meetings involved more than 43 hours discussion.

6. Work of the Committee

6.1 Joint Committee

On the 26 occasions the Joint Committee met, it dealt with the following matters:

Procedural reports

The Committee agreed and laid before both Houses reports on the following issues:

• Annual Report 2002/2003;
• Report to the Committees on Procedure and Privileges on the Procedures and Role of the Joint Committee (Statutory Instruments): This report focused on the effectiveness of the Joint Committee's role in relation to the consideration of statutory instruments. During consideration of its report, the Committee discussed the issues involved with the Parliamentary Legal Adviser. The report was sent for consideration to the Committees on Procedure and Privileges of Dáil Éireann and Seanad Éireann and was laid before both Houses.

Scrutiny of proposals for EU legislation

The attention of the Committee was drawn by the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny to a large number of proposals for EU legislation. The Committee scrutinised the following proposals in detail, discussed the issues involved with the appropriate Departmental officials and reported its opinions to both Houses of the Oireachtas:

• COM(2003)613 concerning the common system of taxation applicable to mergers, divisions, transfers of assets and exchanges of shares concerning companies of different Member States;
• COM(2003)789 concerning the compilation of non-financial accounts on a quarterly basis for each institutional sector;
• COM(2003)797 concerning administrative cooperation in the field of excise duties;
• COM (2003)822 concerning the rules on the place of supply of services for VAT purposes.

The Committee agreed to scrutinise other proposals listed below but the Committee has not yet been in a position to report on these:

• COM (2004) 103 concerning investigations conducted by the European Anti-Fraud Office (OLAF);
• COM (2004) 104 concerning investigations conducted by the European Anti-Fraud Office in respect of the Euratom Treaty (OLAF);
• COM (2004) 227 concerning general arrangements for products subject to excise duty and on the holding, movement and monitoring of such products (submitted in application of Article 27 of Directive 92/12/EEC);
• COM (2004) 273 concerning directive of the European Parliament and of the Council on reinsurance and amending Council Directives 73/239/EEC, 92/49/EEC and Directives 98/78/EC and 2002/83/EC.

Motion referred by the Houses of the Oireachtas

The Committee considered a motion on the following matter referred to it jointly by the Dáil and Seanad. The Committee discussed the issues involved with the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Tom Parlon. In accordance with the orders of referral, the Committee reported to the Houses by way of a message to their Clerks:

• Custom and Excise (Mutual Assistance) Act 2001 (Section 8) (Protection of Manual Data) Regulations 2004.

Visiting delegations

• The Committee discussed issues of mutual interest with a visiting delegation of the Budget and Finance (Taxation) Committee of the Latvian Parliament.
• The Committee also met with a Sub-committee of the Committee on Culture and Media of the German Parliament to discuss matters relating to the development of the information society.

Other issues

• The Committee's Work Programme for 2004;
• Discussions with various groups concerning overcharging by AIB for foreign exchange services;
• Discussion with Information Commissioner on Annual Report and Review of the Operation of the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Act 2003;
• Discussion with the Chairman of the National Pensions Reserve Fund Commission;
• Discussion with the Combat Poverty Agency;
• Discussion with Dóchas and the Debt and Development Coalition;
• Issues concerning a grant-in-aid for the renovation of Maynooth College Chapel;
• Complaints by an individual that his tax situation had been inadequately dealt with by the Revenue Commissioners and the Ombudsman.

6.2 Dáil Select Committee

The Dáil Select Committee considered the following matters which had been referred to it by the Dáil during the period under report:

Bills

• Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland Bill 2003;
• Finance Bill 2004;
• Public Service Superannuation (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2004;
• Public Service Management (Recruitment and Appointments) Bill 2003;
• International Development Association (Amendment) Bill 2003;
• Council of Europe Development Bank Bill 2004.

Estimates for Public Services

• Revised Estimates for Public Services 2004 (Votes 1, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 15, 16 to 17 inclusive);
• Revised Estimates for the Department of the Taoiseach 2004 (Votes 2, 3, 4, 13 and 14);
• Supplementary Estimate and Additional Estimate for Public Services 2004 (Vote 16) Supplementary and (Vote 39) Additional Estimate;
• Supplementary Estimates for Public Services 2004 (Votes 6, 9 and 10).

Motion

• Double Taxation Relief (Taxes on Income and Capital) (Republic of Iceland) Order, 2004, Double Taxation Relief (Taxes on Income and Capital Gains) (Government of the Hellenic Republic) Order, 2004 and Double Taxation Relief (Taxes on Income and Capital Gains) (Government of Canada) Order, 2004.

7. Work in Progress

The following work was commenced by the Joint Committee in 2004 and will be concluded in 2005:

• Scrutiny of EU legislative proposals;
• Report under section 32(2) of the Freedom of Information Act 1997

Under section 32(2) of the Freedom of Information Act 1997 the Committee must review from time to time the operation of legislative provisions that authorise or require the non-disclosure of a record. All but one report in this regard have been furnished to the Committee by members of the Government and the Information Commissioner has confirmed that she will report to the Committee on these matters on receipt of the final report;



• Report on the Policies of Commercial Banks regarding Customer Charges and Interest Rates

The Committee began preparation of a report on the Policies of Commercial Banks regarding Customer Charges and Interest Rates in early 2004. During consideration of the matter, the Committee discussed the issues involved with various financial institutions and interested groups. Following reports of overcharging on foreign exchange transactions in Allied Irish Bank, the Committee held more meetings on this issue throughout 2004 with Allied Irish Bank, Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority, Irish Bank Officials Association and the Governor of the Central Bank. The Committee has now tendered for a consultant to draft a final report for the Committee on these issues. It is expected that the report will be agreed, laid before both Houses and published in early 2005;



• Civil and Public Service Decentralisation Programme

The Joint Committee held discussions with Mr. Phil Flynn, Chairman of the Decentralisation Implementation Group, officials from the Central Applications Facility and Decentralisation Policy Unit of the Department of Finance, Deputy Tom Parlon, Minister of State at the Department of Finance, representatives of Dublin Institute of Technology, University of Limerick, UniversityCollege Dublin, Laois Chamber of Commerce, Westmeath County Council, the Office of the Revenue Commissioners, the Department of Social and Family Affairs, the Civil and Public Services Union, the Public Service Executive Union the Association of Higher Civil and Public Servants, Irish Congress of Trade Unions, IMPACT, the Federated Union of Government Employees, SIPTU, AMICUS, the Transport Salaried Staff Association, the Association of Chief Executives of State Agencies. The Committee intend to draft a report on the decentralisation programme and that the report will be agreed, laid before both Houses and published in 2005;



• Examination of schemes for tax allowances, reliefs, exemptions & deductions, and taxation rules in respect of residency

The Committee held a discussion on schemes for tax allowances, reliefs, exemptions and deductions and the taxation rules in respect of residency with representatives of the Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland and with the Chairman of the Revenue Commissioners in November. The Committee intend to examine these issues further in 2005.

8. Travel

Expenditure from the Joint Committee's budgetary allocation for travel was incurred in the course of the following work done on behalf of the Committee in accordance with its Orders of Reference and in connection with its Work Programme:

• The Government Convenor, Deputy M.J. Nolan, visited New Zealand from 1^st to 7^th April 2004 to examine the role of Parliamentary Committees in the estimates process and to examine the model of tax reliefs for the film industry.
• Deputies Ned O'Keeffe and Michael Finneran attended an annual meeting in London from 27^th to 28^th May 2004 of the British and Irish Ombudsman Association.
• Deputies Joan Burton, Ned O'Keeffe, M.J. Nolan, Michael Finneran and Paul McGrath attended meetings in Washington from 19^th to 23rd September 2004 with officials of the Inland Revenue Service, the Customs Service and the World Bank.
• Deputies Ned O'Keeffe and Michael Finneran attended an OECD High Level Parliamentary Seminar on Corporate Governance in Paris from 6^th to 7^th October 2004.
• Deputy Michael Finneran attended a conference in London from 17^th to 19^th November 2004 on Strategies for an Aging World.
• Deputy Joan Burton attended an ESRI conference in Dublin on 12^th October 2004 on the Budget Perspectives 2005.
• The Chairman, Deputy Seán Fleming attended a hearing of Chairs in Brussels on 23^rd November 2004 of the Budgetary Committees of the National Parliaments of the European Union.

9. Functions and Powers

The Joint Committee is satisfied with its present procedures and role. TheJoint Committee will, however, keep its procedures and role under review and report, as appropriate, to the Committee(s) on Procedure and Privilege(s).

Mr. Seán Fleming, T.D.,
Chairman,

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service.

February, 2005.

Appendix 1

Orders of Reference

Orders of Reference

Dáil Éireann on 16 October 2002 ordered:

1. 1. That a Select Committee, which shall be called the Select Committee on Finance and the Public Service, consisting of 11 members of Dáil Éireann (of whom 4 shall constitute a quorum), be appointed to consider
      
      1. such Bills the statute law in respect of which is dealt with by the Department of the Taoiseach and the Department of Finance;
      2. such Estimates for Public Services within the aegis of the Department of the Taoiseach and the Department of Finance; and
      3. such proposals contained in any motion, including any motion within the meaning of Standing Order 157 concerning the approval by the Dáil of international agreements involving a charge on public funds,

   as shall be referred to it by Dáil Éireann from time to time.

   
   
   2. For the purpose of its consideration of Bills and proposals under paragraphs (1)(a)(i) and (iii), the Select Committee shall have the powers defined in Standing Order 81(1), (2) and (3).
   3. For the avoidance of doubt, by virtue of his or her ex officiomembership of the Select Committee in accordance with Standing Order 90(1), the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance (or a Minister or Minister of State nominated in his or her stead) shall be entitled to vote.
2. 1. The Select Committee shall be joined with a Select Committee to be appointed by Seanad Éireann to form the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service to consider -
      
      1. such public affairs administered bythe Department of the Taoiseach and the Department of Finance as it may select, including, in respect of Government policy, bodies under the aegis of those Departments;
      2. such matters of policy for which the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance are officially responsible as it may select;
      3. such related policy issues as it may select concerning bodies which are partly or wholly funded by the State or which are established or appointed by Members of the Government or by the Oireachtas;
      4. such Statutory Instruments made by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Fianance and laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas as it may select;
      5. such proposals for EU legislation and related policy issues as may be referred to it from time to time, in accordance with Standing Order 81(4);
      6. the strategy statement laid before each House of the Oireachtas by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance pursuant to section 5(2) of the Public Service Management Act, 1997, and the Joint Committee shall be so authorised for the purposes of section 10 of that Act;
      7. such annual reports or annual reportsand accounts, required by law and laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas, of bodies specified in paragraphs 2(a)(i) and (iii), and the overall operational results, statements of strategy and corporate plans of these bodies, as it may select;

      Provided that the Joint Committee shall not, at any time, consider any matter relating to such a body which is, which has been, or which is, at that time, proposed to be considered by the Committee of Public Accounts pursuant to the Orders of Reference of that Committee and/or the Comptroller and Auditor General (Amendment) Act, 1993;

      
      

      Provided further that the Joint Committee shall refrain from inquiring into in public session, or publishing confidential information regarding, any such matter if so requested eitherby the body concerned or by the Taoiseach or the Minister for Finance and

      
      
      8. such other matters as may be jointly referred to it from time to time by both Houses of the Oireachtas,

   and shall report thereon to both Houses of the Oireachtas.

   
   
   2. The quorum of the Joint Committee shall be five, of whom at least one shall be a member of Dáil Éireann and one a member of Seanad Éireann.
   3. The Joint Committee shall have the powers defined in Standing Order 81(1) to (9) inclusive.
3. The Chairman of the Joint Committee, who shall be a member of Dáil Éireann, shall also be Chairman of the Select Committee.”.

Seanad Éireann on 17 October 2002 ordered:

1. 1. That a Select Committee consisting of 4 members of Seanad Éireann shall be appointed to be joined with a Select Committee of Dáil Éireann to form the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service to consider –
      
      1. such publicaffairs administered by the Department of the Taoiseach and the Department of Finance as it may select, including, in respect of Government policy, bodies under the aegis of those Departments;
      2. such matters of policy for which the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance is officially responsible as it may select;
      3. such related policy issues as it may select concerning bodies which are partly or wholly funded by the State or which are established or appointed by Members of the Government or by the Oireachtas;
      4. such Statutory Instruments made by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance and laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas as it may select;
      5. such proposals for EU legislation and related policy issues as may be referred to it from time to time, in accordance with Standing Order 65(4);
      6. the strategy statement laid before each House of the Oireachtas by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance pursuant to section 5(2) of the Public Service Management Act, 1997, and the Joint Committee shall be so authorised for the purposes of section 10 of that Act;
      7. such annual reports or annual reports and accounts, required by law and laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas, of bodies specified in paragraphs 1(a)(i) and (iii), and the overall operational results, statements of strategy and corporate plans of these bodies, as it may select;

      Provided that the Joint Committee shall not, at any time, consider any matter relating to such a body which is, which has been, or which is, at that time, proposed to be considered by the Committee of Public Accounts pursuant to the Orders of Reference of that Committee and/or the Comptroller and Auditor General (Amendment) Act, 1993;

      
      

      Provided further that the Joint Committee shall refrain from inquiring into in public session, or publishing confidential information regarding, any such matter if so requested either by the body concerned or by the Taoiseach or the Minister for Finance;

      
      

      and

      
      
      8. such other matters as may be jointly referred to it from time to time by both Houses of the Oireachtas.

      and shall report thereon to both Houses of the Oireachtas.

      
      
   2. The quorum of the Joint Committee shall be five, of whom at least one shall be a member of Dáil Éireann and one a member of Seanad Éireann.
   3. The Joint Committee shall have the powers defined in Standing Order 65(1) to (9) inclusive.
2. The Chairman of the Joint Committee shall be a member of Dáil Éireann.”.

Appendix 2

Members of the Joint Committee

MEMBERS OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE ON

FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE

Deputies:

Richard Bruton (Fine Gael)

Joan Burton (Labour)

Michael Finneran (vice-Chairman) (Fianna Fáil)

Seán Fleming (Chairman) (Fianna Fáil)

John Cregan (Fianna Fáil)*

Paul McGrath (Fine Gael)

John McGuinness (Fianna Fáil)

M.J. Nolan (Convenor) (Fianna Fáil)

Caoimhghín O Caoláin (Sinn Féin) (Technical Group)

Ned O'Keeffe (Fianna Fáil)

Paddy McHugh (Convenor) (Independent)**

(Technical Group)

Senators:

John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)***

Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fáil)

Joe O'Toole (Independent)

Mary White (Fianna Fáil)

* Deputy John Cregan replaced Deputy Conor Lenihan on 16 November, 2004

** Deputy Paddy McHugh replaced Deputy Liam Twomey on 12 October, 2004

***Senator John Paul Phelan replaced Senator Jim Higgins on 20 October, 2004

Appendix 3

Meetings of the Joint Committee

Appendix 4

Meetings of the Dáil Select Committee

Appendix 5

Minutes of proceedings of the Joint Committee

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Wednesday, 14^th January, 2004.

The Joint Committee met at 11.43 p.m., a quorum being present.

1. Attendance

The following members attended:

Deputies: Richard Bruton, Joan Burton, Michael Finneran, Seán Fleming (in the Chair), Paul McGrath, John McGuinness, M.J. Nolan, Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, Ned O'Keeffe and Liam Twomey.

Senators: Paul Coghlan*, Terry Leyden*, Joe O'Toole and Mary White.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputy Conor Lenihan and Senator Jim Higgins.

*Senators Coghlan and Leyden substituted for Senators Jim Higgins and Mary White respectively.

2. Minutes of meeting of 10^th December

Minutes of the meeting of 10^th December were agreed.

3. Correspondence

National Irish Bank

The Committee had before it a letter to the Chairman from Mr. John Trethowan, Chief Operating Officer of National Irish Bank, who offered to inform the Chairman of progress with the Bank's response to serious allegations which had been made concerning the Bank. It was agreed that the Chairman and Clerk meet informally with Mr. Trethowan and report back to the Committee as to whether the matter relates to it or to the Committee of Public Accounts.

Delegation from Latvia

The Committee acceded to a request that it meet a delegation of the Budget and Finance (Taxation) Committee of the Latvian Parliament. It was agreed that a meeting be convened for 10.30 a.m. on 27^th January for this purpose and that it be established in advance what topics the delegation wished to discuss.

Delegation from European Parliament

The Committee acceded to a request that members meet a delegation of the Committeeon Budgets of the European Parliament on 6^th February. It was agreed that an informal meeting be arranged for mid-morning on that day.

European Scrutiny

The Committee had before it a list of the proposals considered by the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny on 4^th December, 2003. The Committee agreed –

1. to scrutinise COM(2003)613 concerning the common system of taxation applicable to mergers, divisions, transfers of assets and exchanges of shares concerning companies of different Member States, and to seek a briefing note on the matter from the Department of Finance;
2. that COM(2003)604 concerning the establishment of a guarantee fund for external actions did not warrant scrutiny by it; and
3. that none of the other proposals listed warranted scrutiny by the Committee.

The Committee agreed that none of the proposals on the list of those considered by the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny on 18^th December warranted scrutiny by the Committee.

Statutory Instruments

The Committee had before it three statutory instruments. The Committee agreed –

1. not to consider S.I. 717 of 2003 entitled European Communities (Taxation of Savings Income in the form of Interest Payments) Regulations 2003;
2. to consider S.I. 718 of 2003 entitled National Development Finance Agency Act 2002 (Amendment of Schedule) Order 2003 and to seek a briefing note on the matter from the Department of Finance; and
3. to consider S.I. 723 of 2003 entitled Value-Added Tax (Invoices and other Documents) (Amendment) Regulations 2003 and to seek a briefing note on the matter from the Department of Finance.

4. Draft Report on the Policy of Commercial Banks regarding Customer Charges and Interest Rates

The Committee had before it a First Draft Report on the Policy of Commercial Banks regarding Customer Charges and Interest Rates.

Members outlined the nature of the recommendations which might be made to the draft and it was agreed that a working group comprising a small but representative number of members be established to draft recommendations for presentation to the Committee at a later meeting.

It was agreed that proposed amendments to the draft Report be sent to the Clerk in advance of the next meeting at which the Report was to be considered.

5. Any other business

There was no other business.

6. Adjournment

It was agreed that the Committee would meet on 21^st January to consider its draft Annual Report and begin considering its Work Programme.

It was agreed that the Committee would meet on 28^th January with the Chairman of the National Pensions Reserve Fund Commission.

The Committee adjourned at 12.57 p.m. until Wednesday, 21^st January.

Sean Fleming T.D.,
Chairman.

21^st January, 2004

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Wednesday, 21^st January, 2004.

The Joint Committee met at 4.38 p.m., a quorum being present.

1. Attendance

The following members attended:

Deputies: Richard Bruton, Joan Burton, Seán Fleming (in the Chair), Conor Lenihan, John McGuinness, M.J. Nolan, Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, Ned O'Keeffe and Liam Twomey.

Senators: Jim Higgins and Joe O'Toole.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Senator Mary White.

2. Minutes of meeting of 14^th January

Minutes of the meeting of 14^th January were agreed.

3. Correspondence

Houses of the Oireachtas Commission

The Committee noted a letter from the Chairperson of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission and the protocol enclosed with it governing interaction by the Commission with Oireachtas committees.

Settlement with Revenue Commissioners

The Committee had before it two letters, dated 13^th and 20^th January, from [name ofcorrespondent deleted] who was dissatisfied with the result of his dealings with the Revenue Commissioners and the Ombudsman. The Chairman advised the Committee that it was not its function to investigate individual cases dealt with by the Revenue Commissioners or to initiate investigations of individual cases dealt with by the Ombudsman. It was agreed that the Chairman, a member of each party/group represented on the Committee, and the Clerk meet informally with the Ombudsman to seek information on the way in which the case was concluded.

4. Annual Report

The Committee had before it a draft Annual Report for 2002/2003 for consideration.

It was agreed that the report by the Committee on its procedures and its role generally, required by Standing Orders to be made at least once in each year to the Committees on Procedure and Privileges, be included in the Annual Report.

It was agreed that the minutes of proceedings of the Joint Committee, required by Standing Orders to be laid from time to time before the Houses, be included in the Annual Report.

Sections 1 to 5, inclusive, were agreed to.

Section 6.1 was proposed from the Chair. On the proposal of Deputy Bruton, it was agreed that future annual reports should (i) record the recommendations contained in reports by the Committee on topics selected by it for examination, and (ii) reflect progress reports which would be sought from the appropriate bodies on such recommendations. Section 6.1 was agreed to.

Sections 6.2 and 7 to 9, inclusive, were agreed to.

Appendices 1 to 5, inclusive, were agreed to.

It was agreed that the draft Annual Report be adopted as the Annual Report of the Committee for 2002/2003. The Committee noted that, in accordance with Standing Orders, the Report must be laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas.

5. Work Programme 2004

The Committee had before it a first draft Work Programme for 2004. Members suggested changes and it was agreed that these be incorporated in a second draft. It was agreed that a comprehensive list of the bodies in respect of which the Committee has a role under its orders of reference be compiled.

6. Any other business

The Committee agreed that a briefing note be sought in advance of its meeting on 28^th January with the Chairman of the National Pensions Reserve Fund Commission.

7. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 5.32 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Tuesday, 27^th January.

Sean Fleming T.D.,
Chairman.

28^th January, 2004

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Tuesday, 27^th January, 2004.

At 10.45 a.m., a quarter of an hour after the time appointed for the meeting having lapsed and a quorum not being present, the Committee stood adjourned in accordance with Standing Orders. The Clerk convened a meeting for 11 a.m. on the same day.

_________________________

The Joint Committee met at 11.10 a.m., a quorum being present.

1. Attendance

The following members attended:

Deputies: Michael Finneran, Seán Fleming (in the Chair), M.J. Nolan, Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin and Liam Twomey.

Senators: Martin Mansergh and Joe O'Toole.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputies Richard Bruton, Joan Burton, Conor Lenihan, Paul McGrath, John McGuinness and Ned O'Keeffe, and from Senators Jim Higgins and Mary White.

2. Discussion with delegation of the Budget and Finance (Taxation) Committee of the Latvian Parliament

The Committee discussed issues relating to Ireland's experience of membership of the European Union with a delegation of the Budget and Finance (Taxation) Committee of the Latvian Parliament.

3. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 12.03 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 28^th January.

Sean Fleming T.D.,
Chairman.

28^th January, 2004

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Wednesday, 28^th January, 2004.

The Joint Committee met at 3.10 p.m., a quorum being present.

1. Attendance

The following members attended:

Deputies: Dan Boyle*, Richard Bruton, Joan Burton, Michael Finneran, Seán Fleming (in the Chair), Conor Lenihan, John McGuinness, M.J. Nolan, Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin and Liam Twomey.

Senators: Martin Mansergh and Joe O'Toole.

*Attended in accordance with Standing Order 90(3).

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputy Paul McGrath and Senator Jim Higgins.

2. Expressions of sympathy

The Committee expressed its sympathy with Deputy Paul McGrath on the recent death of his brother.

3. Minutes of meetings of 21^st and 27^th January, 2004

Minutes of the meeting of 21^st and 27^th January, 2004, were agreed.

4. Correspondence

European Scrutiny

The Committee had before it a list of the proposals considered by the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny on 22^nd January, 2004. The Committee agreed –

1. that COM(2003)703, 721 and 761, which had been drawn to the Committee's attention without a recommendation that they be scrutinised, did not warrant scrutiny by it; and
2. that none of the other proposals listed warranted scrutiny by the Committee.

Newspaper article

The Committee had before it a copy of an article which was published in the Irish Times on 23^rd January and a copy of a speech reported therein. The speech, made to the centenary debate of the Association of Chartered Certified Accountants, commented critically on the extent to which the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland were accountable to the Committee. The Committee agreed –

1. to write to the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission drawing attention to the comments in order to highlight the way in which a lack of resources contributes to an adverse public perception of Oireachtas committees generally and seeking the views of the Commission on the matter; and
2. to discuss the issues raised in the reported comments in the context of the Work Programme for 2004.

The meeting was suspended by agreement from 3.30 p.m. to 3.31 p.m.

5.Presentation by Chairman of the National Pensions Reserve Fund Commission

The Committee heard a presentation by Mr. Donal Geaney, Chairman of the National Pensions Reserve Fund Commission, on the work of the Commission. Mr. Geaney was accompanied by Dr. Michael J. Somers, Chief Executive of the National Treasury Management Agency (NTMA), Mr. John Corrigan and Mr. Brendan McDonagh, directors of the NTMA and Mr. Adrian O'Donovan, an official with the NTMA.

The fire alarm having sounded, the meeting was suspended at 3.35 p.m. The meeting resumed at 3.43 p.m.

Discussion ensued.

Mr. Geaney agreed to provide to the Committee a briefing note on the Commission's practice of hedging investments in currencies.

6.Any other business

There was no other business.

7.Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 6.09 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 4^th February.

Sean Fleming T.D.,
Chairman.

4^th February, 2004

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Wednesday, 4^th February, 2004.

The Joint Committee met at 3.08 p.m., a quorum being present.

1. Attendance

The following members attended:

Deputies: Dan Boyle*, Richard Bruton, Joan Burton, Michael Finneran, Seán Fleming (in the Chair), Conor Lenihan, Paul McGrath, John McGuinness, M.J. Nolan and Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin.

Senators: Martin Mansergh, Joe O'Toole and Mary White.

*Attended in accordance with Standing Order 90(3).

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Senator Jim Higgins.

2. Minutes of meeting of 28^th January, 2004

Minutes of the meeting of 28^th January, 2004, were agreed.

3. Correspondence

Irish Charities Tax Reform Group

The Committee had before it a letter from the Irish Charities Tax Reform Group which was seeking support for amendments to the Finance Bill 2004. It was agreed (i) to inform the Group that it would not be practicable for the Joint Committee to consider its proposals formally before the Bill was considered at Committee Stage, and (ii) to copy the proposals to the Minister for Finance for consideration.

Report of the Commission on Public Service Pensions

The Committee had before it briefing material from the Department of Finance concerning the implementation of the recommendations ofthe Commission on Public Service Pensions which had been sought following the meeting of the Joint Committee on 10^th December, 2003. It was agreed to consider the matter in the context of the Work Programme for 2004.

It was agreed to bring forward items 4, 5 and 6 on the agenda.

4. Work Programme 2004

The Committee had before it a second draft Work Programme for 2004. It was agreed to insert the words “and other reliefs” after “property” in item 12 of the issuesfor examination. It was agreed to consider a further draft after receipt from the Departments of the Taoiseach and Finance of information concerning bodies and agencies in respect of which the Committee had responsibilities under its orders of reference.

5. Statutory Instruments 718 and 723 of 2003

The Committee had before it briefing notes from the Department of Finance in respect of Statutory Instruments 718 and 723 of 2003 which had been sought following the meeting of the Joint Committee on 14^th January.

In respect of S.I. 718 of 2003, the Committee noted that, in view of the lapse of the statutory period, it was not effectively open to it to consider recommending to the Houses that they pass a resolution concerning the proposal. It was agreed, however, to seek information from the Departments of Finance and Transport on the net effect of the inclusion of the bodies involved in the schedule to the National Development Finance Agency Act 2002.

It was agreed not to scrutinise S.I. 723 of 2003.

It was agreed to ask the Departments of Finance and the Taoiseach (i) to ensure that copies of draft proposals for statutory instruments be sent to the Committee in good time to allow it to decide whether to report to the Houses before the expiry of the 21 sitting days within which they are usually empowered to agree resolutions annulling or disapproving of the proposals, and (ii) to ensure that copies of draft proposals are accompanied by a covering letter containing the name and contact details of the relevant officials.

6. Any other business

It was agreed to seek from Mr. Tom Parlon, T.D., Minister of State at the Department of Finance, copies of the original application and supporting documentation for a Grant-in-Aid for the refurbishmentof Maynooth College Chapel. It was noted that the matter had been the subject of discussion at the Select Committee on Finance and the Public Service in the context of its consideration of supplementary estimates on 26^th November, 2003.

The meeting was suspended by agreement from 3.35 p.m. to 3.39 p.m.

7. Presentation by the Combat Poverty Agency

The Committee heard a presentation on behalf of the Combat Poverty Agency on its work on the prevention and elimination of poverty and social exclusion. The presentation was made by Mr. Jim Walsh, Head of Research and Policy, and Ms. Fidelma Joyce, Policy Liaison Officer. The Agency was also represented by Mr. Jonathan Healy, Policy and Research Analyst.

Discussion ensued.

8. Adjournment

It was agreed that the Joint Committee be represented by four members at an informal meeting to be held on 6^th February with a delegation of the Committee on Budgets of the European Parliament.

The Committee adjourned at 5.02 p.m. sine die.

Sean Fleming T.D.,
Chairman.

11 March, 2004

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Thursday, 11^th March, 2004.

The Joint Committee met at 2.43 p.m., a quorum being present.

1. Attendance

The following members attended:

Deputies: Joan Burton, Michael Finneran, Seán Fleming (in the Chair), M.J. Nolan and Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin.

Senators: Mary White.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputy Richard Bruton and from Senators Jim Higgins and Martin Mansergh.

2. Minutes of meeting of 4^th February, 2004

Minutes of the meeting of 4^th February, 2004, were agreed.

3. Correspondence

Finance Bill 2004

The Committee had before it letters from the Carmichael Centre and Threshold which were seeking changes to the Finance Bill in respect of the tax treatment of charities. The Committee noted that the Clerk had replied to the letters in accordance with its decision on the same issue made at the meeting of 4^th February, 2004.

Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland Bill 2003

The Committee had before it letters from the ProfessionalInsurance Brokers' Association and the Irish League of Credit Unions seeking support for amendments to the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland Bill 2003. The Committee agreed that the correspondents be informed that their proposals had been brought to the attention of the Committee as soon as they were received.

Public Service Superannuation (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2004

The Committee had before it two letters from the Irish Medical Organisation outlining the Organisation's concerns in relation to the Public Service Superannuation (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2004 and seeking an opportunity to give evidence on the Bill. The Committee noted (i) that although the matter was primarily one for the Select Committee, it was also open to the Joint Committee to hear views on the policy issues involved in the legislation, and (ii) that a reply had issued to the effect that the short time between receipt of the letter and the commencement of Committee Stage meant that it was not possible to accede to the request to give evidence.

It was agreed that, in addition to being circulated to the Committee by the Clerk, the following action should be taken in respect of any future letter from an interested organisation seeking support for amendments to legislation:

1. The letter should be sent, on behalf of the Committee, to the appropriate Minister for information;
2. a reply should issue to the effect that the letter has been brought to the attention of all members and the Minister; and
3. a further reply should issue on completion of consideration by the Committee of the Bill to the effect that the issue raised had been discussed on an identified date and that details of the discussion would be available on the Oireachtas internet website.

Dissolution of promotional panel

The Committee had before it a letter to the Committee and a letter to the Clerk from a civil servant in a Government department who requested that the Committee investigate the circumstances surrounding the dissolution of a promotional panel, allegedly before it had validly expired and allegedly with the consequence that he was denied a promotion to which he would otherwise have been entitled. It was agreed that a reply issue to the effect that the Committeecannot involve itself in the matter as its role in relation to the public service is to examine the policy of the Department of Finance and that it has no function in relation to the internal administration of the Department identified in the letters.

4. Travel Proposal

The Committee had before it a letter from the Speaker of the New Zealand House of Representatives concerning the question of a visit to New Zealand by the Chairman.

As the Chairman was unavailable to travel, it was agreed that the Government convenor, Deputy Nolan, travel on his behalf.

In view of the distance involved, it was agreed that economy class travel was neither practical nor reasonable and that business class travel should be used.

It was agreed that an allocation from the travel budget of up €7,000 be sought from the Working Group of Committee Chairmen.

It was agreed that the reasons for visiting New Zealand were to examine (i) the role of parliamentary committees there in the estimates process, and (ii) New Zealand's model of tax reliefs for the film industry.

It was agreed that, in view of the imminence of the local and European Parliament elections, it was preferable that the visit take place as soon as possible and preferably before Easter.

5. European Scrutiny

The Committee had before it a list of the proposals considered by the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny on 5^th February, 2004. The Committee agreed –

1. to scrutinise COM(2003)822 concerning the place of supply of services and to seek a briefing note on the matter from the Department of Finance;
2. to scrutinise COM(2003)797 concerning administrative co-operation in the field of excise duties and to seek a briefing note on the matter from the Department of Finance;
3. that none of the other proposals listed warranted scrutiny by the Committee.

The Committee had before it a list of the proposals considered by the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny on 26^th February, 2004. The Committee agreed-

1. to scrutinise COM(2003)789 concerning the compilation of quarterly non-financial accounts by the main institutional sectors of the economy and to seek a briefing note on the matter from the Department of Finance;
2. that, in respect of COM(2003)841 concerning a common system of taxation applicable to interest and royalty payments made between companies of different member states, which was forwarded by the Sub-Committee for information only, a briefing note on the matter be sought from the Department of Finance before deciding whether or not to scrutinise the proposal;
3. that none of the other proposals listed warranted scrutiny by the Committee.

6. Statutory Instruments

The Committee noted letters received from the Departments of Finance and Transport containing information pertaining to Statutory Instrument 718 of 2003 sought by the Committee following its meeting of 4^th February, 2004.

The Committee had before it Statutory Instrument 83 of 2004 entitled Superannuation (Designation of Approved Organisations)(No. 2) Regulations 2004 which had been laid before the Houses on 3^rd March, 2004. It was noted that the Statutory Instrument was not subject to a statutory consultation period.

It was agreed (i) to obtain a general note from the Parliamentary Legal Adviser on the statutory arrangements permitting annulment of statutory instruments by the Houses of the Oireachtas, and (ii) to ask the Department of Finance for a list of bodies previously approved under the same statutory provision.

The Committee went into private session at 3.10 p.m. to hear advice from the Clerk. The Committee met in public session at 3.28 p.m.

7. Any other business

Deputy Burton raised the question of the provision of a newpaper clippings service to the Committee. The Clerk informed the Committee that he was examining the matter with a view to identifying a sustainable way in which a service might be provided. It was noted that clippings were circulated to the Committee of Public Accounts and the Joint Committee on Transport and it was agreed that samples be sought from both Committees.

The Clerk explained the operation of allowances for rapporteurs and consultants and was asked to provide a written briefing note on the matter.

The Committee resumed in public session at 3.28 p.m.

8. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 3.30 p.m. sine die.

Sean Fleming T.D.,
Chairman.

24^th March, 2004

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Wednesday, 24^th March, 2004.

The Joint Committee met at 9.40 a.m., a quorum being present.

1.Attendance

The following members attended:

Deputies: Richard Bruton, Michael Finneran, Seán Fleming (in the Chair), M.J. Nolan and Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin.

Senators: Martin Mansergh and Mary White.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputy Liam Twomey and Senator Jim Higgins.

2. Minutes of meeting of 11^th March, 2004

Minutes ofthe meeting of 11^th March, 2004, were agreed.

3. Correspondence

Dissolution of promotional panel

The Committee had before it further letters dated 16^th and 18^th March from a civil servant in a Government department who requested that the Committee investigate the circumstances surrounding the dissolution of a promotional panel, allegedly before it had validly expired and allegedly with the consequence that he was denied a promotion to which he would otherwise have been entitled. It was agreed that a reply issue in the same terms as those agreed at the meeting of 11^th March and that the correspondent be informed that the Committee had no role in relation to the accuracy of replies to Parliamentary Questions.

Association of Higher Civil and Public Servants - Decentralisation

The Committee had before it a letter dated 15^th March from the General Secretary of the Association of Higher Civil and Public Servants who was seeking an opportunity to brief the Committee on a report by the Association's Executive Committee on the Public Service Relocation Programme.

The Committee went into private session at 9.43 a.m. to hear advice from the Clerk. The Committee met in public session at 9.44 a.m.

It was agreed that the letter and structure of the Committee's consideration of decentralisation be considered at the next meeting in the context of a revised draft Work Programme.

Maynooth College Chapel

A letter dated 22^nd March, 2004, from the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Tom Parlon, concerning a Grant-in-Aid for the refurbishment of Maynooth College Chapel was received at the meeting and circulated to members. It was agreed to defer consideration of the letter until the next meeting.

4. Statutory Instruments

The Committee agreed not to consider S.I. 89 of 2004 entitled European Communities (Financial Collateral Arrangements) (Amendment) Regulations 2004.

5. European Scrutiny

The Committee had before it a list of the proposals considered by the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny on 11^th March, 2004. The Committee agreed that none of the proposals listed warranted scrutiny by the Committee.

The meeting was suspended by agreement from 10.11 a.m. to 10.12 a.m.

6. Statutory Instruments

The Committee had before it proposals that the Customs and Excise (Mutual Assistance) Act 2001 (Section 8) (Protection of Manual Data) Regulations 2004 be approved by the Dáil and Seanad, which proposals had been referred to the Committee by both Houses.

The Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Tom Parlon, made a presentation to the Committee on the Regulations. Discussion ensued.

The Committee completed its consideration of the proposals and noted that, in accordance with the orders of referral, a message to that effect would be sent by the Clerk to the Clerks of both Houses.

The meeting was suspended by agreement from 10.35 a.m. to 10.39 a.m.

7. Presentations by officials on EU proposal COM(2003)613

The Committee heard a presentation by Ms. Karen Cullen, Department of Finance, on EU proposal COM(2003)613 which concerned the common system of taxation applicable to mergers, divisions, transfers of assets andexchanges of shares concerning companies of different Member States. Ms. Cullen was accompanied by Mr. Jim Kelly, Revenue Commissioners and Mr. Michael McGrath, Department of Finance.

Discussion ensued.

The witnesses withdrew.

The Committee agreed –

1. that it was satisfied with the proposal, the negotiations thereon and its discussion with the officials, and
2. that a draft report be prepared for its consideration.

8.Any other business

The Chairman informed the Committee that the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs had invited members to attend an informal meeting on 6^th April with Ms. Eveline Herkins, special envoy of the United Nations Secretary General for the Millenium Development Goals. It was agreed that the Clerk write with the details to all members who could attend if they wished.

It was agreed that the work of the Revenue Powers Group be included in the draft Work Programme as an item for consideration.

9.Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 11.03 a.m. sine die.

Sean Fleming T.D.,
Chairman.

21 April, 2004

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Wednesday, 21^st April, 2004.

The Joint Committee met at 12.14 p.m., a quorum being present.

1. Attendance

The following members attended:

Deputies: Richard Bruton, Joan Burton, Seán Fleming (in the Chair) and Ned O'Keeffe.

Senators: Martin Mansergh, Joe O'Toole and Mary White.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputies Michael Finneran, Conor Lenihan, Paul McGrath, John McGuinness and M.J. Nolan, and Senator Jim Higgins.

2. Minutes of meeting of 24^th March, 2004

Minutes of the meeting of 24^th March, 2004, were agreed.

3. Correspondence

Settlement with Revenue Commissioners

The Committee had before it a letter dated 9^th April from [name of correspondent deleted] who was dissatisfied with the result of his dealings with the Revenue Commissioners and the Ombudsman and a letter dated 19^th April from the Director General of the Office of the Ombudsman. It was agreed (i) to send a copy of the letter from the Office of the Ombudsman to [name of correspondent deleted] and (ii) to inform [name of correspondent deleted] that, regrettably, it was not within the remit of the Committee to investigate individual cases that have not been the subject of a special report by the Ombudsman to the Houses of the Oireachtas.

Maynooth College Chapel

The Committee had before it a letter dated 22^nd March, 2004, from the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Tom Parlon, concerning a Grant-in-Aid for the refurbishment of Maynooth College Chapel. It was agreed to defer consideration of the letter until the next meeting.

Tax treatment of charities

The Committee had before it a reply dated 8^th April from the Private Secretary to the Minister for Finance concerning the tax treatment of charitable and voluntary groups. It was agreed to send copies of the reply to the Carmichael Centre, Threshold and the Irish Charities Tax Reform Group which had written to the Committee on the matter and to inform them that their concerns were raised by members of the Select Committee with the Minister during debate on Committee Stage of the Finance Bill 2004.

Statutory Instruments

The Committee had before it three statutory instruments. It was agreed not to consider –

1. S.I. 102 of 2004 entitled Oireachtas (Allowances to Members) and Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices (Amendment) Act 1992 (Allowances) (Amendment) Regulations 2004;
2. S.I. 124 of 2004 entitled Finance Act 2001 (Commencement of Section 52) Order 2004;
3. S.I. 140 of 2004 entitled Finance Act 2004 (Section 74) (Commencement) Order 2004.

The Committee noted advice received from the Parliamentary Legal Adviser on parliamentary scrutiny of statutory instruments. It was agreed that the advice, which was provided consequent on a decision of the Committee of 11^th March, be reviewed at the next meeting.

EU Scrutiny

The Committee had before it a list of the proposals considered by the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny on 1^st April, 2004. The Committee agreed –

1. to scrutinise COM(2004)103 concerning investigations conducted by the European Anti-Fraud Office;
2. to scrutinise COM(2004)104 concerning investigations conducted by the European Anti-Fraud Office in respect of the Euratom Treaty;
3. that COM(2004)75 concerning an agreement between the EU and the Swiss Confederation regarding the taxation of savings income in the form of interest payments did not warrant scrutiny by it;
4. that none of the other proposals listed warranted scrutiny by the Committee.

The Committee, noting that a substantial amount of information was received with each proposal sent to it by the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny, agreed that further briefing material on each proposal selected for scrutiny be obtained only when a meeting with officials to discuss such proposal was imminent.

Conference to mark European Competition Day

The Committee had before it an invitation to attend a conference in Dublin Castle on 29^th April tomark European Competition Day. It was noted that the question of expenditure from the Committee's travel allocation did not arise and it was agreed that any member wishing to attend should contact the Clerk.

Conference hosted by the Irish Insurance Federation

The Committee had before it an invitation to attend a conference in the Conrad Hotel, Dublin, on 29^th April on the theme of closing the Irish savings gap. It was noted that the question of expenditure from the Committee's travel allocation did not arise and it was agreed that any member wishing to attend should contact the Clerk.

4. Consideration of draft Work Programme 2004

The Committee had before it a third draft Work Programme for 2004.

It was agreed, in respect of the list of Issues for Examination (see Appendix) -

1. to delete items 1, 13, 14 and 19;
2. to merge items 2, 3 and 18;
3. in item 3, after “systems”, to insert “including international systems”;
4. to merge items 4, 5, 6 and 17;
5. to merge items 8 and 11;
6. to merge items 12, 21 and 22;
7. in item 20, after “Banks”, to insert “and the role and work programme of the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority”; and
8. to insert as an issue for examination the need to consider how procedures might be changed to enhance the value of the consideration by the Select Committee of estimates.

Arising from the Work Programme, it was agreed –

1. in the context of item 10, to examine the possibility of a fact-finding visit to the World Bank headquarters;
2. to ask the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority to alert members of the Committee by e-mail to the imminent publication of documents;
3. to examine the extent to which the Committee is empowered to review the management of the offices of the Attorney General, the Comptroller and Auditor General, the Chief State Solicitor and the Director of Public Prosecutions;
4. to review the operation of Freedom of Information legislation as soon as possible after the publication of reports under section 32 of the Freedom of Information Act 1997.

5. Consideration of draft Report on EU Proposal COM(2003)613

The Committee had before it a draft report on EU proposal COM(2003)613 which concerned the common system of taxation applicable to mergers, divisions, transfers of assets and exchanges of shares concerning companies of different Member States.

The Committee agreed that the draft report be adopted as the Report of the Committee on the proposal and noted that, in accordance with Standing Orders, it must be laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas.

The Committee agreed that copies of the report be sent to the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny and to the Minister for Finance.

6. Any other business

There was no other business.

7. Adjournment

It was agreed to invite officials to the next meeting to discuss EU proposals COM(2003)822 and COM(2003)789.

The Committee adjourned at 1.22 p.m. until 3 p.m. on 28^th April.

Sean Fleming T.D.,
Chairman.

28^th April, 2004

APPENDIX

Extract from 3^rd draft Work Programme – see item 4 in minutes

Issues for examination

The following issues have been identified for examination by the Committee. The order in which they are listed does not reflect an order of priority:

1. National Pensions Reserve Fund;
2. Completion of Report on the Policies of Commercial Banks concerning Customer Charges and Interest Rates;
3. Money transmission systems with particular reference to electronic payments;
4. Policy of Taoiseach on Strategic Management Initiative/Delivering Better Government;
5. Strategy statements of the Departments of the Taoiseach and Finance;
6. Benchmarking of public sector pay;
7. Standards in Public Office Commission;
8. Review of National Development Plan;
9. Review of Freedom of Information legislation;
10. Ireland's role in the International Monetary Fund and World Bank;
11. Growth and Stability Pact;
12. Tax relief on investments in certain kinds of property and other reliefs;
13. Report of the Commission on Public Service Pensions with particular reference to the position of teachers;
14. Income inequality within the State;
15. Civil and public service decentralisation;
16. The potential of the euro in the economic life of the State, having regard to the use of two currencies on the island of Ireland;
17. E-government;
18. Meetings with the Irish Bankers' Federation and other financial institutions;
19. Financial and economic management generally;
20. Role of the Irish and European Central Banks;
21. Work of the Revenue Powers Group;
22. Review with the Revenue Commissioners of non-residency taxation rules, focusing on –
1. the comparative rules of other jurisdictions,
2. the cost to the Exchequer,
3. a review of offshore and tax trusts.

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Wednesday, 28^th April, 2004.

The Joint Committee met at 3.12 p.m., a quorum being present.

1. Attendance

The following members attended:

Deputies: Richard Bruton, Michael Finneran, Seán Fleming (in the Chair), Paul McGrath, John McGuinness, M.J. Nolan, Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, Ned O'Keeffe and Liam Twomey.

Senators: Martin Mansergh and Joe O'Toole.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Senator Jim Higgins.

2. Minutes of meeting of 21^st April, 2004

Minutes of the meeting of 21^st April, 2004, were agreed.

Arising from the minutes, Deputy McGuinness sought clarification of the reason contact with the Office of the Ombudsman in the case of [name of correspondent deleted] had culminated in a written explanation of the position rather than a meeting with the Ombudsman. The Chairman clarified the position. It was agreed to request from the Ombudsman information on the number of recommendations made by her to each public body that had been rejected by that body.

3. Correspondence

Maynooth College Chapel

The Committee had before it a letter dated 22^nd March, 2004, from the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Tom Parlon, concerning a Grant-in-Aid for the refurbishment of Maynooth College Chapel. Noting that the application for the Grant-in-Aid had beenmade verbally, the Committee agreed that, in respect of the meeting at which the application was made, a letter issue to the Minister asking when the meeting took place, where it took place, who attended, whether any civil servant attended and whether a record of the meeting was taken.

Bank of Scotland

The Committee had before it a letter dated 15^th March from Mr. Mark Duffy, Chief Executive of Bank of Scotland (Ireland), stating that the Bank had applied for full membership of the

IrishPayment Services Organisation and enclosing a study of the Economic Impact of Increased Competition in Irish Banking Services which was prepared for the Bank. It was agreed that Mr. Duffy be informed that the Committee has included the need to examine money transmission systems in its Work Programme for 2004.

Statutory Instruments

The Committee brought forward item 6 on the agenda. The Committee had before it advice received from the Parliamentary Legal Adviser on parliamentary scrutiny of statutory instruments. The Committee noted that many of the statutory instruments that came before it were not subject to a probationary period during which the Committee had an opportunity to consider whether to recommend to the Houses that the instruments be annulled. It was agreed that the Committee express to the Committees on Procedure and Privileges its dissatisfaction with the absence, in many cases, of such an oversight mechanism and that is ask those Committees to seek to have the matter addressed.

The Committee had before it the following six statutory instruments:

1. S.I. 146 of 2004 entitled Valuation Act 2001 (Global Valuation) (O2 Ireland) Order 2004;
2. S.I. 147 of 2004 entitled Valuation Act 2001 (Global Valuation) (Vodafone Ireland) Order 2004;
3. S.I. 148 of 2004 entitled Valuation Act 2001 (Global Valuation) (Esat BT) Order 2004;
4. S.I. 149 of 2004 entitled Valuation Act 2001 (Global Valuation) (Meteor Mobile Communications Limited) Order 2004;
5. S.I. 150 of 2004 entitled Valuation Act 2001 (Global Valuation) (Bórd Gáis Éireann) Order 2004; and
6. S.I. 151 of 2004 entitled Valuation Act 2001 (Global Valuation) (Apportionment) (Electricity Supply Board) Order 2004.

It was agreed, in respect of those statutory instruments concerning telecommunications companies, that the Department of Finance be asked to provide a briefing note explaining the operational detail of how the work of identifying the relevant properties and attributing rateable value to them was proposed to be carried out.

EU Scrutiny

The Committee had before it a list of the proposals considered by the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny on 22^nd April, 2004. The Committee agreed –

1. that SEC(2004)321 which proposed the creation of a new budget line to receive the operating subsidy for the Executive Agency for Intelligent Energy did not warrant scrutiny by it;
2. that none of the other proposals listed warranted scrutiny by the Committee.

4. Travel Proposal – Conference on Ombudsman Services, London

The Committee brought forward item 7 on the agenda. The Committee had before it an invitation from the Chairman of the British and Irish Ombudsman Association to attend the annual meeting of the Association in London on 28^th May.

It was agreed that the invitation should be accepted.

It was agreed that the reasons for accepting the invitation were (i) that the draft Work Programme of the Committee explicitly recognises the role of the Committee in respect of bodies such as the Office of the Ombudsman as one of its key functions and records the intention of the Committee to prioritise such bodies for scrutiny, and (ii) that, in view of the Committee's recent consideration of correspondence which highlights the limits of the Ombudsman's powers to enforce her recommendations, it would be useful to hear the views of the meeting in London on the balance to be struck between the weight to be given to the recommendations of the Ombudsman and the prerogative of public bodies.

It was agreed that the conveners consult with members and that any member wishing to travel should travel.

It was agreed that economy class travel be used subject to fares being fully refundable in the event of cancellation.

It was agreed that an allocation from the travel budget of €900 per member travelling be sought from the Working Group of Committee Chairmen.

5. Presentations by officials on EU proposal COM(2003)822

The Committee heard a presentation by Mr. Pat Leahy, Department of Finance, on EU proposal COM(2003)822 which concerned the rules on the place of supply of services for VAT purposes. Mr. Leahy was accompanied by Ms. Clare Robson and Mr. Kevin Fitzpatrick, Revenue Commissioners.

Discussion ensued.

The witnesses agreed to provide further information in writing on a number of specified issues. It was agreed to defer further consideration of the matter pending receipt of that information.

6. Presentations by officials on EU proposal COM(2003)789

The Committee heard a presentation by Mr. Bill Keating, Director of Macro-Economic Statistics, Central Statistics Office, on EU proposal COM(2003)789 which concerned the compilation of non-financial accounts on a quarterly basis for each institutional sector. Mr. Keating was accompanied by Mr. Mick Lucey, Senior Statistician, Central Statistics Office.

Discussion ensued.

The witnesses withdrew.

The Committee agreed –

1. that it was satisfied with the proposal, the negotiations thereon and its discussion with the officials, and
2. that a draft report be prepared for its consideration.

7. Consideration of draft Work Programme 2004

It was agreed to defer consideration of the fourth draft Work Programme for 2004 until the next meeting of the Committee.

8. Any other business

There was no other business.

9. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 4.57 p.m. until 3 p.m. on 12^th May.

Sean Fleming T.D.,
Chairman.

12^th May, 2004

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Wednesday, 12^th May, 2004.

The Joint Committee met at 3.09 p.m., a quorum being present.

1. Attendance

The following members attended:

Deputies: Richard Bruton, Joan Burton, Michael Finneran, Seán Fleming (in the Chair), Paul McGrath, John McGuinness, M.J. Nolan, Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin and Ned O'Keeffe.

Senators: Mary White.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Senator Jim Higgins.

2. Minutes of meeting of 28^th April, 2004

Minutes of the meeting of 28^th April, 2004, were agreed.

3. Correspondence

Gaelic Players' Association

The Committee noted a reply dated 28^th April which the Chairman had received from the Minister for Finance to a letter he had written to the Minister concerning the question of special tax arrangements for elite amateur sportspersons who are resident in the State.

Free Legal Advice Centres

The Committee noted a reply dated 6^th April which the Chairman had received from the Minister for Finance concerning a submission made by the Free Legal Advice Centres concerning the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland Bill 2003.

Statutory Instruments

The Committee had before it Statutory Instrument No. 162 of 2004 entitled Valuation Act 2001 (Global Valuation) (Eircom) Order 2004.

The Committee noted that the statutory instrument was directly related to those concerning telecommunications companies which had been considered at the meeting of 28^th April and in respect of which a briefing note had been sought and received from the Department of Finance. It was agreed that the briefing note received was not clear enough and that a further briefing note be sought explaining in greater detail the operational detail of how the work of identifying the relevant properties and attributing rateable value to them was proposed to be carried out.

Allied Irish Banks

The Committee had before it letters from Deputies Ó Caoláin and Burton requesting that the Committee convene to consider issues arising from the overcharging by AIB of its customers for foreign exchange services.

It was agreed –

1. that the Chief Executive and Consumer Director of the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority and the Governor of the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland be invited to meet the Committee at 9.30 a.m. on 20^th May; and
2. that the Chief Executive of AIB be invited to meet the Committee at 3 p.m. on 26^th May.

Settlement with Revenue Commissioners

The Committee had before it a letter dated 29^th April, which had been received on 11^th May, from [name of correspondent deleted]who was dissatisfied with the result of his dealings with the Revenue Commissioners and the Ombudsman. It was agreed that the letter be considered further following receipt of the Ombudsman's reply to a request for information made by the Committee pursuant to a decision made at its meeting of 28^th April.

4.Draft report to the Committees on Procedure and Privileges on statutory instruments

The Committee had before it a draft Report to the Committees on Procedures and Privileges on the Procedures and Role of the Joint Committee (Statutory Instruments) which had been prepared pursuant to a decision of the Committee on 28^th April.

The Committee agreed that the draft Report be adopted as a report of the Committee.

The Committee agreed that the Report be sent for consideration the Committees on Procedure and Privileges of Dáil Éireann and Seanad Éireann.

The Committee noted that, in accordance with Standing Orders, the Report must be laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas.

5. Consideration of draft Report on EU Proposal COM(2003)789

The Committee had before it a draft report on EU proposal COM(2003)789 which concerned the compilation of non-financial accounts on a quarterly basis for each institutional sector.

The Committee agreed that the draft report be adopted as the Report of the Committee on the proposal and noted that, in accordance with Standing Orders, it must be laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas.

The Committee agreed that copies of the report be sent to the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny, the Department of the Taoiseach and the Director General of the Central Statistics Office.

6. Consideration of travel reports

The Committee noted the report of the delegation that attended, on behalf of the Committee, a conference of public works committees in Rome in November, 2003.

The Committee noted the report of the delegation that attended, on behalf of the Committee, the World Summit on the Information Society in Geneva in December, 2003.

7. Consideration of draft Work Programme 2004

The Committee brought forward item 7 on the agenda. The Committee had before it a fourth draft Work Programme for 2004. Following discussion, the Chairman asked members to communicate to the Clerk suggestions for the prioritisation of issues for examination.

8. Any other business

The Committee brought forward item 8 on the agenda.

The Chairman informed the Committee that on 5^th May, pursuant to a decision of the Committee of 14^th January, he, with the Clerk, had met Mr. John Trethowan and Mr. Joe Anderson of National Irish Bank. Mr. Trethowan and Mr. Anderson had apprised the Chairman of how the Bank had addressed the consequences of difficulties highlighted in television programmes in 1998 concerning its sale of offshore insurance products and discrepancies in interest charges.

The Committee noted a note on the operation of allowances for rapporteurs which had been prepared by the Clerk pursuant to a decision of the Committee on 11^th March.

9. Presentations by officials on EU proposal COM(2003)797

The Committee heard a presentation by Mr. Fred Cooper, Department of Finance, on EU proposal COM(2003)797 which concerned administrative co-operation in the field of excise duties. Mr. Cooper was accompanied by Mr. Brendan Sheeran and Mr. Murtagh Corrigan, Office of the Revenue Commissioners.

Discussion ensued.

The witnesses withdrew.

The Committee agreed that it was satisfied with the proposal, the negotiations thereon and its discussion with the officials.

The Committee had before it a draft report on the proposal.

The Committee agreed that the draft report be adopted as the Report of the Committee on the proposal and noted that, in accordance with Standing Orders, it must be laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas.

The Committee agreed that copies of the report be sent to the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny, the Department of Finance and the Office of the Revenue Commissioners.

10. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 4.46 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on 20^th May.

Sean Fleming T.D.,
Chairman.

20^th May, 2004

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Thursday, 20^th May, 2004.

The Joint Committee met at 9.35 a.m., a quorum being present.

1. Attendance

The following members attended:

Deputies: Dan Boyle*, Richard Bruton, Joan Burton, Michael Finneran, Seán Fleming (in the Chair), M.J. Nolan, Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, Ned O'Keeffe, Billy Timmins* and Liam Twomey.

Senators: Joe O'Toole and Shane Ross*.

*Attended in accordance with Standing Orders 90(3) [Dáil] or 74(2) [Seanad].

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Senators Jim Higgins and Martin Mansergh.

2. Minutes of meeting of 12^th May, 2004

Minutes of the meeting of 12^th May, 2004, were agreed.

3. Correspondence

European Scrutiny

The Committee had before it a list of the proposals considered by the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny on 6^th May. The Committee agreed that none of the proposals listed warranted scrutiny by it.

The Committee also had before it a briefing note from the Department of Finance on EU proposal COM(2003)841. The proposal had been forwarded by the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny on 3^rd March for the information of the Committee. The Committee agreed that the proposal did not warrant further scrutiny by it.

4. Discussion with the IFSRA on issues arising from overcharging by AIB for foreign exchange services

The Chairman informed the Committee that the Governor of the Central Bank was unable to attend the meeting as he was attending a meeting in Frankfurt of the Governing Council of the European Central Bank.

The Committee heard a presentation by Dr. Liam O'Reilly, Chief Executive of the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority (IFSRA), on issues arising from overcharging by AIB for foreign exchange services. Dr. O'Reilly was accompanied by Ms. Mary O'Dea, the IFSRA's Consumer Director, Mr. George Treacy, its Head of Consumer Policy and Codes, and Mr. Martin Moloney, its Head of Regulatory Enforcement and Development.

Discussion ensued.

The meeting was suspended by agreement from 10.26 a.m. to 11.08 a.m.

The Chairman drew the attention of members to a reply which had been received during the suspension from Mr. Michael Buckley, Chief Executive, AIB Group, to the Committee's invitation to meet it on 26^th May. The Committee expressed disappointment that AIB believed that a fruitful discussion with the Committee could onlytake place after the independent investigation into overcharging for foreign exchange services had concluded. It was agreed to inform Mr. Buckley that the Committee was satisfied that no conflict would arise from an early meeting and to request AIB to reconsider its decision.

The Committee noted a letter that had been received that morning from Mr. Niall Murphy who was concerned with the approach taken by the IFSRA to complaints made to it by him about AIB.

The Committee resumed discussion with the witnesses.

The witnesses withdrew.

5. Any other business

With reference to its decision of 28^th April that economy class travel be used for members delegated to attend a conference on ombudsman services in London, the Committee agreed that business class tickets to and from Cork be reserved for Deputy O'Keeffe as the economy class fares applicable on the route were not refundable.

6. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 1.02 p.m. until 3 p.m. on 26^th May.

Sean Fleming T.D.,
Chairman.

26^th May, 2004

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Wednesday, 26^th May, 2004.

The Joint Committee met at 3.07 p.m., a quorum being present.

1. Attendance

The following members attended:

Deputies: Richard Bruton, Joan Burton, John Cregan*, Seán Fleming (in the Chair), Máire Hoctor*, Conor Lenihan, Paul McGrath, M.J. Nolan, Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, Ned O'Keeffe and Liam Twomey.

Senators: Martin Mansergh, Joe O'Toole, Shane Ross** and Mary White.

*Deputies Cregan and Hoctor substituted for Deputies John McGuinness and Michael Finneran respectively.

**Attended in accordance with Standing Order 74(2) [Seanad].

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputy John McGuinness and Senator Jim Higgins.

2. Minutes of meeting of 20^th May, 2004

Minutes of the meeting of 20^th May, 2004, were agreed.

3. Correspondence

AIB

The Committee had before it a reply dated 24^th May from Mr. Michael Buckley, Chief Executive, AIB Group, to the Committee's second invitation to meet it on 26^th May.

Discussion ensued.

The meeting was suspended by agreement from 3.35 p.m. to 3.51 p.m.

The Committee agreed –

1. to seek, for consideration at the next meeting, advice from the Parliamentary Legal Adviser on the process and implications involved in having powers under the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act 1997 conferred on the Committee;
2. to write to the Chairman of AIB Group to the effect that it was the Committee's firm belief that a discussion with AIB now would not compromise the conduct or outcome of the independent investigation referred to by Mr. Buckley, that the Committee was considering seeking power to compel the attendance of witnesses and that the Committee again invited AIB to meet it at an early date; and
3. that the letter to the Chairman of AIB Group be circulated to members and that any reply be considered at the next meeting of the Committee.

The Committee had before it an e-mail message from Ms. Dorothea Dowling who suggested that the Committee raise with AIB the question of the rate of commission charged by AIB on credit protection insurance products.

Senator O'Toole informed the Committee (i) of his position as vice-Chairman of the Personal Injuries Assessment Board, of which Ms. Dowling is Chairperson, and (ii) that he had not discussed with Ms. Dowling the subject matter of her correspondence.

It was agreed –

1. that AIB, the Irish Bankers' Federation and the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority be asked to comment on the issue raised by Ms. Dowling; and
2. that Ms. Dowling be invited to make a more detailed written submission to the Committee.

Settlement with Revenue Commissioners

The Committee had before it a reply from the Office of the Ombudsman to its request for information made following the meeting of 28^th April, letters dated 29^th April and 25^th May from [name of correspondent deleted] the earlier of which had been deferred from the meeting of 12^th May.

It was agreed to write to [name of correspondent deleted] informing him that the Committee–

1. had decided that it had no further role in this matter, particularly as the Ombudsman had confirmed that she supported the decision of her predecessor and that she regarded the case as closed;
2. believed the case raised important general principles concerning the extent to which recommendations made by the Ombudsman are enforceable against public bodiesand that the Committee would discuss this issue with the Ombudsman at its next meeting with her; and
3. noted that [name of correspondent deleted] may have legal remedies open to him.

Visit of German parliamentary delegation

The Committee had before it a request, referred by the Joint Committee on Education and Science, that it meet a delegation of the Sub-Committee on Culture and Media of the German parliament that was to visit Dublin on 23^rd and 24^th June.

It was agreed to invite the delegation to meet the Committee at 2.30 p.m. on 23^rd June.

4. Consideration of draft Work Programme 2004

The Committee had before it a fifth draft Work Programme for 2004 and written suggestions from Deputies Bruton and Ó Caoláin for the prioritisation of issues for examination.

Deputy Burton moved “That the Joint Committee meet for two days after the local elections in early July to consider the question of public service decentralisation.”.

The question was put and a division was demanded.

A division having been demanded in the Dáil before the Clerk had commenced taking the division, the division was postponed.

The meeting was suspended by agreement from 4.58 p.m. to 5.11 p.m.

The Clerk to the Committee took the division.

Tá - 6: Deputies Richard Bruton, Joan Burton, Paul McGrath, Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin and Liam Twomey and Senator Joe O'Toole.

Níl - 8: Deputies John Cregan, Seán Fleming, Máire Hoctor, Conor Lenihan, M.J. Nolan and Ned O'Keeffe and Senators Martin Mansergh and Mary White.

The question was declared lost.

5. Any other business

There was no other business.

6. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 5.54 p.m. until 2 p.m. on 1^st June.

Sean Fleming T.D.,
Chairman.

1^st June, 2004

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Tuesday, 1^st June, 2004.

The Joint Committee met at 2.10 p.m., a quorum being present.

1. Attendance

The following members attended:

Deputies: Dan Boyle*, Richard Bruton, Joan Burton, Conor Lenihan, Paul McGrath, M.J. Nolan, Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, Ned O'Keeffe, Seán Power** and Liam Twomey.

Senators: Martin Mansergh and Mary White.

*Attended in accordance with Standing Order 90(3) [Dáil].

**Deputy Power substituted for Deputy Seán Fleming.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputies Michael Finneran and Seán Fleming and Senator Jim Higgins.

2. Election of temporary Chairman

In the unavoidable absence of the Chairman and vice-Chairman, it was agreed that Deputy Nolan take the Chair. Deputy Nolan took the Chair accordingly.

3. Minutes of meeting of 26^th May, 2004

Minutes of the meeting of 26^th May, 2004, were agreed.

4. Correspondence

IFSRA publications

The Committee deferredto the end of the meeting correspondence from the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority.

Statutory Instruments

The Committee deferred to the next meeting consideration of a reply dated 25^th May by the Department of Finance to its request for further information concerning statutory instruments requiring the valuation of properties occupied by certain public utility undertakings.

Maynooth College Chapel

The Committee deferred to the next meeting consideration of a reply dated 27^th May by the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Tom Parlon, to the Committee's request for further information concerning an application for a Grant-in-Aid for the refurbishment of Maynooth College Chapel.

AIB

The Committee had before it a reply dated 31^st May from Ms. Dorothea Dowling to the Committee's request for further information concerning the rate of commission charged by AIB on credit protection insurance products. The Committeenoted the reply and agreed to invite Ms. Dowling to meet it at the next convenient opportunity.

The Committee had before it an e-mail message dated 31^st May from the Irish Bank Officials' Association which requested an opportunity to address the Committee on issues arising from recent events at AIB. The Committee agreed to invite the Association to meet it at the next convenient opportunity.

The Committee had before it a reply dated 1^st June from Mr. Dermot Gleeson, Chairman, AIB Group, to the Committee's third invitation to AIB to meet it.

Senator Mansergh declared that his daughter had been working, since 2002, in junior to middle management at AIB.

Deputy Boyle declared that his wife was, at present, an employee of AIB at the junior management level, and that she was currently on a career break.

The Committee agreed that a reply issue to the Chairman of AIB expressing great disappointment at the Bank's third rejection of an invitation to an early meeting, repeating the view of the Committee that the Bank should meet it to discuss the cultural, organisational and ethical issues arising from events which had recently become public knowledge and confirming again that the Committee did not intend to replicate the inquiries being carried out into the specific events involved.

The Committee deferred to the next meeting consideration of legal advice dated 1^st June received from the Parliamentary Legal Adviser.

The meeting was suspended by agreement from 3.06 p.m. to 3.09 p.m.

5. Discussion with the IFSRA on issues arising from overcharging by AIB for foreign exchange services

The Committee heard a presentation by Mr. John Hurley, Governor of the Central Bank, on issues arising from recent events at AIB. Mr. Hurley was accompanied by Mr. Liam Barron, Director of the Central Bank, Mr. Brian Halpin, Deputy Director General, and Mr. Joe Doherty, Head of Legal Services.

Discussion ensued.

The Chairman acknowledged the presence in the visitors' gallery of a delegation of the Parliament of New Zealand and welcomed the members of the delegation on behalf of the Committee.

6. Any other business

IFSRA publications

The Committee noted a reply dated 24^th May from the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority to a request from the Committee for advance notice of publication of documents.

7. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 4.53 p.m. sine die.

Sean Fleming T.D.,
Chairman.

17^th June, 2004

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Tuesday, 17^th June, 2004.

The Joint Committee met at 11.38 a.m., a quorum being present.

1. Attendance

The following members attended:

Deputies: Dan Boyle*, Richard Bruton, Joan Burton, Seán Fleming (in the Chair), Paul McGrath, M.J. Nolan and Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin.

Senators: Camillus Glynn**, Joe O'Toole and Mary White.

*Attended in accordance with Standing Order 90(3) [Dáil].

**Senator Glynn substituted for Senator Martin Mansergh.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputy Liam Twomey and Senator Jim Higgins.

2. Minutes of meeting of 1^st June, 2004

Minutes of the meeting of 1^st June, 2004, were agreed.

3. Correspondence

Statutory Instruments

The Committee agreed that it was satisfied with a reply dated 25^th May from the Department of Finance to the Committee's request for further information concerning statutory instruments requiring the valuation of properties occupied by certain public utility undertakings.

Consequently, it was agreed not to consider –

1. S.I. 146 of 2004 entitled Valuation Act 2001 (Global Valuation) (O2 Ireland) Order 2004;
2. S.I. 147 of 2004 entitled Valuation Act 2001 (Global Valuation) (Vodafone Ireland) Order 2004;
3. S.I. 148 of 2004 entitled Valuation Act 2001 (Global Valuation) (Esat BT) Order 2004;
4. S.I. 149 of 2004 entitled Valuation Act 2001 (Global Valuation) (Meteor Mobile Communications Limited) Order 2004; and
5. S.I. 162 of 2004 entitled Valuation Act 2001 (Global Valuation) (Eircom) Order 2004.

Maynooth College Chapel

The Committee had before it a reply dated 27^th May by the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Tom Parlon, to the Committee's request for further information concerning an application for a Grant-in-Aid for the refurbishment of Maynooth College Chapel. The Committee agreed –

1. to ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to examine the events leading to the approval of the Grant-in-Aid in order to determine whether procedures for the disbursement of public money laid down for accounting officers were applied properly;
2. to invite the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Tom Parlon, to meet the Committee following the conclusion of an examination of the matter by the Comptroller and Auditor General;
3. to seek from the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Tom Parlon, details of all grants-in-aid approved since June, 1997, which were not the subject of generally applicable formal application and approval procedures.

Statutory Instruments

The Committee had before it five statutory instruments. It was agreed not to consider –

1. S.I. 193 of 2004 entitled Mineral Oil Tax (Amendment) Regulations 2004;
2. S.I. 201 of 2004 entitled Excise Duty on Tobacco Products (Quantitative Restrictions) Order 2004; and
3. S.I. 232 of 2004 entitled Finance Act 2003 (Section 102) (Commencement) Order 2004.

In respect of the following statutory instruments, the Committee agreed that a briefing note be sought from the Department of Finance:

1. S.I. 198 of 2004 entitled European Communities (Reorganisation and Winding-up of Credit Institutions) Regulations 2004; and
2. S.I. 223 of 2004 entitled Credit Union Act 1997 (Exemption from Additional Services Requirements) Regulations 2004.

EU Scrutiny

The Committee had before it a list of the proposals considered by the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny on 27^th May, 2004. The Committee agreed –

1. in respect of COM(2004)227, to study the information provided with a view to deciding at the next meeting whether or not to scrutinise the proposal; and
2. in respect of SEC(2004)593, noting that the proposal was necessitated primarily by underspending on structural assistance, to request from the Department of Finance a detailed breakdown of how it had been intended to spend the €65 million surplus arising in respect of Ireland.

Freedom of Information

The Committee noted a letter dated 1^st June from the Information Commissioner in which she informed the Committee of her intention to avail of the option to reportto the Committee under section 32(5) of the Freedom of Information Act 1997 (“the Act”).

The Committee agreed to seek orders from both Houses authorising it for the purposes of section 32 of the Act.

The Committee noted that a number, but not all, of the reports required to be furnished by Ministers under section 32(3) of the Act had been received by the Clerk but not circulated. It was agreed that none be circulated until all had been received.

The Committee noted that the Annual Report for 2003 of the Office of the Information Commissioner and Review of the Operation of the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Act 2003 had been laid before the Houses. The Committee agreed to invite the Information Commissioner to meet it to discuss these reports as soon as possible.

Invitation to conference

The Committee had before it an invitation which had been passed to it by the Chairman of the Joint Committee on Agriculture and Food to attend a conference in Moscow in November 2004 on the subject of regional economic development in Russia. The Committee agreed that the conference was outside the scope of its orders of reference and draft work programme.

AIB

The Committee noted a reply dated 10^th June from Mr. Dermot Gleeson, Chairman, AIB Group, to a letter addressed to him by the Chairman following the meeting of 1^st June.

The Committee had before it general legal advice on compellability powers dated 1^st June received from the Parliamentary Legal Adviser. The Committee considered whether or not to seek (i) from both Houses, the power to send for persons, papers and records and (ii) from the Sub-Committee on Compellability, consent to use powers provided for by the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act 1997.

The Committee had before it a reply dated 4^th June from the Chief Executive of the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority to a letter from the Chairman seeking information on the extent to which the IFSRA regulates organisations that are based outside the State but which provide investment finance, act as investment intermediaries or provide investment advice in the State. The Committee agreed to seek the views of the Chief Executive as to the adequacy of the régime described in his reply.

In the context of its discussion on AIB, the Committee noted that transcripts of its meetings are not usually finalised for several months. It was noted however, that unedited transcripts of meetings are usually made available within days on the Oireachtas internet site. The Committee agreed to draw to the attention of the Editor of Debates its concern at the delay in the finalisation of transcripts.

The Committee noted that it had not been possible for Ms. Dorothea Dowling to attend the meeting. It was agreed that she be invited to attend on another date.

Dóchas

The Committee had before it an e-mail message from Mr. Hans Zomer, Director of Dóchas, seeking ameeting between the Joint Committee and representatives of Irish agencies involved in overseas development. The Committee agreed to meet representatives at a suitable opportunity.

The meeting was suspended by agreement from 1.15 p.m. to 1.16 p.m.

4. Presentation by the Irish Bank Officials' Association on issues arising from recent events at AIB

The Committee heard a presentation by Mr. Larry Broderick, General Secretary, Irish Bank Officials' Association (IBOA), on issues arising fromrecent events at AIB. Mr. Broderick was accompanied by Mr. Marty Whelan, Communications Manager, Mr. Ciarán Mahon, Bank of Ireland Officer, Ms. Jessie Doherty, AIB Officer, Mr. Tommy Kennedy, Ulster Bank Officer, and Mr. Colman Moore, an Executivemember from National Irish Bank.

Discussion ensued.

5. Any other business

There was no other business.

6. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 2.40 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on 23^rd June.

Sean Fleming T.D.,
Chairman.

23^rd June, 2004

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Wednesday, 23^rd June, 2004.

The Joint Committee met at 2.38 p.m., a quorum being present.

1. Attendance

The following members attended:

Deputies: Michael Finneran, Conor Lenihan, Kathleen Lynch*, M.J. Nolan and Liam Twomey.

Senators: Joe O'Toole and Mary White.

*Deputy Lynch substituted for Deputy Burton.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputies Richard Bruton and Seán Fleming and Senator Jim Higgins.

In the unavoidable absence of the Chairman, the vice-Chairman, Deputy Finneran, took the Chair.

2. Minutes of meeting of 17^th June, 2004

Minutes of the meeting of 17^th June, 2004, were agreed.

The Committee agreed to defer consideration of correspondence until after its discussion with a delegation from the German Parliament.

The meeting was suspended by agreement from 3.19 p.m. to 3.20 p.m.

3. Discussion with the New Media Developments Sub-Committee of the Committee on Culture and Media of the German Parliament

The Committee received a delegation of the New Media Developments Sub-Committee of the Committee on Culture and Media of the German Parliament.

The members of the delegation were Mr. Jorg Tauss, Dr. Guntar Krings and Dr. Ole Schroder. The delegation was accompanied by Mr. Christopher Speer, Committee Secretary, Mr. Joachim Heidorn, German Embassy in Ireland and Mrs. Marianne Ranedo-Klein, interpreter.

Discussion took place on matters relating to the development of the information society.

4. Correspondence

Statutory Instruments

The Committee had before it three statutory instruments:

1. Noting that the Committee had considered the proposal in draft form on 24^th March, following referral to it by the Houses, it was agreed not to consider S.I. 254 of 2004 entitled Customs and Excise (Mutual Assistance) Act 2001 (Section 8) (Protection of Manual Data) Regulations 2004.
2. The Committee agreed not to consider S.I. 373 of 2004 entitled Finance Act 2003 (Commencement of Chapter 1 of Part 2) Order 2004.
3. The Committee agreed that a briefing note be sought from the Department of Finance in respect of S.I. 381 of 2004 entitled Valuation (Revisions and New Valuations) (Fees) Regulations 2004.

AIB

The Committee had before it a reply dated 21^st June from Mr. Michael Buckley, Group Chief Executive, AIB, to a request made by the Committee consequent on its meeting of 26^th May for his comments on a question raised by Ms. Dorothea Dowling about the rate of commission charged by AIB on credit protection insurance products. The Committee agreed to review the reply when replies had been received from the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority and the Irish Bankers' Federation.

The Committee had before it a letter dated 1^st June from the Clerk to the Committee of Public Accounts enclosing a letter from a correspondent in County Leitrim who believed that he had been overcharged by AIB for clearance of a Euro cheque and who suggested that the matter be investigated. The Committee agreed to inform the correspondent that the Committee is not investigating specific instances of alleged overcharging by AIB, that the Committee is focusing on the more general cultural and organisational issues arising from recent events at AIB and recommending that he bring his concerns to the attention of the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority. The Committee also agreed to forward the correspondent's letter to the IFSRA and to inform him of this.

Irish Insurance Federation

The Committee had before it a letter dated 22^nd June from the Irish Insurance Federation enclosing a submission concerning the savings and pensions gap in Ireland and requesting an opportunity to present proposals in that regard to the Committee. The Committee agreed to meet representatives at a suitable opportunity.

5.Any other business

There was no other business.

6. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 3.33 p.m. until 3 p.m. on 7^th July.

Sean Fleming T.D.,
Chairman.

23^rd June, 2004

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Wednesday, 7^th July, 2004.

The Joint Committee met at 3.06 p.m., a quorum being present.

1. Attendance

The following members attended:

Deputies: Dan Boyle*, Richard Bruton, Joan Burton, Michael Finneran, Seán Fleming (in the Chair), Paul McGrath, John McGuinness, Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, Ned O'Keeffe and Liam Twomey.

Senators: Martin Mansergh, Joe O'Toole and Mary White.

*Attended in accordance with Standing Order 90(3) [Dáil].

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputy M.J. Nolan and Senator Jim Higgins.

2. Minutes of meeting of 23^rd June, 2004

Minutes of the meeting of 23^rd June, 2004, were agreed.

3. Correspondence

Statutory Instruments

The Committee had before it a briefing note on S.I. 198 of 2004 entitled European Communities (Reorganisation and Winding-up of Credit Institutions) Regulations 2004 which had beenrequested from the Department of Finance following the meeting of 17^th June. The Committee agreed that the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority be asked for its views on the Regulations.

The Committee had before it a briefing note on S.I. 223 of 2004 entitled Credit Union Act 1997 (Exemption from Additional Services Requirements) Regulations 2004 which had been requested from the Department of Finance following the meeting of 17^th June. The Committee agreed not to consider the Statutory Instrument further.

Maynooth College Chapel

The Committee had a reply dated 6^th July from the Comptroller and Auditor General to its request following the meeting of 17^th June that the Comptroller examine the events leading to the approval of a grant-in-aid for the refurbishment of Maynooth College Chapel. The Committee noted the Comptroller's confirmation that the payment would be examined from the point of view of regularity and propriety and, if necessary, reported in the Annual Report on the Appropriation Accounts for 2003.

Transcripts

The Committee had before it a reply dated 29^th June from the Editor of Debates to the letter issued following the meeting of 17^th June. The Committee noted the progress that was being made in relation to the finalisation of transcripts of meetings and agreed to suggest to the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission that it take this issue into account in the context of its review of staffing of theHouses.

EU Scrutiny

The Committee had before it a list of the proposals considered by the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny on 17^th June. Noting that it had, in March 2003, reported its full satisfaction with the approach being taken bythe Department of Finance on the original proposal, the Committee agreed that COM(2004)365 which set out the opinion of the Commission on the amendments made by the European Parliament to a proposal for a directive on markets in financial instruments didnot warrant scrutiny by it.

Report of the Revenue Powers Group

The Committee had before it a letter dated 16^th June from the Irish Taxation Institute enclosing the Institute's response to the Report of the Revenue Powers Group andoffering to discuss the issues involved with the Committee. The Committee agreed to inform the Institute that it would consider how to proceed following the August break.

IFSRA study

The Committee had before it a study by the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority of the Extent and Speed of Interest Rate Pass-through on a Basket of Retail Banking Products. The Committee agreed that it would consider how to proceed following the August break.

IFSRA consultation paper

The Committee hadbefore it a letter dated 30^th June from the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority inviting submissions on financial planning education for consumers. The Committee agreed that the question of making a submission was a matter for members individually.

Performance Management and Development System

The Committee had before it a report on the Evaluation of the PMDS in the Civil Service which had been sent to it by the Department of the Taoiseach. The Committee noted the report and agreed to seek copies of their most recent strategy statements from the Department of the Taoiseach, the Department of Finance and the Office of Public Works.

AIB

In view of the pressure of time, the Committee agreed to defer to the next meeting consideration of correspondence pertaining to recent events at AIB.

Public Service Decentralisation

The Committee had before it –

1. a letter dated 2^nd July from Deputy Burton making a number of proposals in relation to the consideration by the Committee of public service decentralisation;
2. a paper prepared by Mr. Michael J. Bannon, Emeritus Professor at the Department of Regional and Urban Planning at UCD, entitled Service Activity Concentration in Dublin and its Implications for National Urban Policy and the Regional Development of the Country; and
3. a letter dated 6^th July from Mr. Seán Ó Riordáin, General Secretary of the Association of Higher Civil and Public Servants, renewing the Association's request to meet the Committee.

The Committee agreed to meet for two days before the end of July to discuss decentralisation and to decide a schedule at the next meeting. The Committee also agreed to consider further what documentary information might be sought in advance of the meetings.

4. Consideration of draft Report on EU proposal COM(2003)822

The Committee had before it a briefing note from the Department of Finance responding to issues raised by members during its discussion on COM(2003)822 on28^th April. The Committee noted that information technology difficulties had prevented the preparation of a draft report but that this would be prepared for the next meeting.

The Committee agreed to ask the Department of Finance (i) to keep itinformed of progress in relation to the proposal, and (ii) to approach the Revenue Commissioners with a view to simplifying the procedures for the recovery of tax paid on dividends paid on share options by Irish persons working for European-owned companies.

The meeting was suspended by agreement from 4.17 p.m. to 4.19 p.m.

5. Discussion with Information Commissioner on Annual Report and Review of the Operation of the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Act 2003

The Committee heard a presentation by Ms. Emily O'Reilly, Information Commissioner, on the Annual Report for 2003 of the Office of the Information Commissioner and on the Review of the Operation of the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Act 2003.

The Commissioner was accompanied by Mr. Pat Whelan, Director General of the Office of the Information Commissioner and Mr. David Nutley, Investigator.

Discussion ensued.

6. Any other business

There was no other business.

7. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 5.41 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on 14^th July.

Sean Fleming T.D.,
Chairman.

14^th July, 2004

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Wednesday, 14^th July, 2004.

The Joint Committee met at 9.38 a.m., a quorum being present.

1. Attendance

The following members attended:

Deputies: Richard Bruton, Joan Burton, Seán Fleming (in the Chair), Paul McGrath, John McGuinness, M.J. Nolan, Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, Ned O'Keeffe and Liam Twomey.

Senators: Mary White.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputy Conor Lenihan.

2. Minutes of meeting of 7^th July, 2004

Minutes of the meeting of 7^th July, 2004, were agreed.

3. Correspondence

Statutory Instruments

The Committee had before it a briefing note on S.I. 381 of 2004 entitled Valuation (Revisions and New Valuations) (Fees) Regulations 2004 which had been requested from the Department of Finance following the meeting of 23^rd June. The Committee agreed not to consider the Statutory Instrument further.

EU Scrutiny

The Committee noted a briefing note on VAT carousel fraud which had been requested from the Department of Finance following discussion on EU proposal COM(2003)797 at the meeting of 12^th May.

The Committee had before it a briefing note which had been requested from the Department of Finance following discussion at the meeting of 17^th June on EU proposal SEC(2004)593 which involved a preliminary draft budget to budget the surplus resulting from the implementation of the 2003 budget. It was agreed to defer consideration of the note and to seek from the Department a detailed breakdown of any funds which were unspent or not drawn down by Ireland in 2003.

AIB

The Committee considered a number of letters, specified beneath, arising from recent events at AIB. It was agreed that the replies to these letters be circulated to all members of the Committee.

The Committee had before it a letter dated 21^st June from a correspondent in Dublin 4 who allegedly had had difficulties arising from financial advice given to him by AIB and who suggested that a number of specific questions be put to AIB by the Committee. The Committee agreed to reply to the effect that the members would take account of the suggested questions in the context of any meeting with representatives of AIB and that the correspondent be advised that he hadthe option of bringing the matter to the attention of the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority (IFSRA).

The Committee had before it a letter from a correspondent in County Tipperary who had allegedly yielded to pressure from an AIB official to invest a sum and suffered a net loss when the investment matured. The Committee agreed to reply to the effect that the members would take account of the correspondent's experience in the context of any meeting with representatives of AIB and that shebe advised that she had the option of bringing the matter to the attention of the IFSRA.

The Committee noted an anonymous letter from correspondents in Dún Laoghaire, Co. Dublin, who described being put under duress by an AIB official to invest in a bogus offshore account and their current fear of impoverishment arising from consequent demands for unpaid tax and penalties.

The Committee had before it a letter dated 2^nd June from a firm of accountants in County Tipperary which alleged that a number of its clients had been put under pressure by AIB officials to invest their modest savings in bogus non-resident and offshore accounts. The Committee agreed to reply to the effect that the members would take account of the points made in the context of the Committee's consideration of cultural and organisational issues at AIB.

The Committee had before it a letter dated 3^rd June from a correspondent in County Galway who offered to give evidence to the Committee concerning his complaints about the interest rate spreads of AIB and Bank of Ireland. The Committee agreed to reply to the effect that, as its focus was on general cultural and organisational issues at AIB, it had no plans at this stage to take evidence from individual investors but that it would take the correspondent's letter into account in the context of any meeting with representatives of AIB.

The Committee had before it a letter dated 15^th May from a representative of a business in County Down that reviews clients' bank accounts and recovers money which has been overcharged. The correspondent offered to suggest questions which might be put to AIB by the Committee. The Committee agreed to reply to the effect that the members would bear in mindthe company's experience of recovery of overcharged sums and that the correspondent be invited to submit in writing any questions which he believed might usefully be put to AIB.

The Committee had before it a letter dated 14^th June from acorrespondent in London who alleged that AIB had sought money that it was not entitled to from the administrator of her late husband's estate. The Committee agreed to reply to the effect that the members would take the correspondent's experience into account in the context of any meeting with representatives of AIB.

The Committee had before it a letter dated 1^st June from a correspondent in County Kildare who alleged that he was overcharged by Ulster Bank for a foreign exchange transaction. The Committee agreed to reply to the effect that it is not investigating specific instances of overcharging by banks and that the correspondent be advised that he had the option of bringing the matter to the attention of the IFSRA.

The Committee noted a circular letter from Mr. Niall Murphy on behalf of AIB shareholders committed to the restoration of honesty and integrity throughout AIB.

The Committee had before it a reply dated 23^rd June from Mr. Pat Farrell, Chief Executive of the Irish Bankers' Federation, to a request made by the Committee consequent on its meeting of 26^th May for his comments on a question raised by Ms. Dorothea Dowling about the rate of commission charged by AIB on credit protection insurance products. The Committee agreed to review the reply when a reply had been received from the IFSRA.

The Committee noted historic correspondence concerning Icarom plc which had been received by the Chairman.

Tralee Beef and Lamb

The Committee agreed to defer to the next meeting consideration of a letter dated 5^th July from Deputy Ned O'Keeffe concerning the receivership of Tralee Beef and Lamb.

4. Consideration of draft Report on EU proposal COM(2003)822

The Committee had before it a draft report on EU proposal COM(2003)822 which concerned the rules on the place of supply of services for VAT purposes.

The Committee agreed that the draft report be adopted as the Report of the Committee on the proposal and noted that, in accordance with Standing Orders, it must be laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas.

The Committee agreed that copies of the report be sent to the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny, the Department of Finance and the Office of the Revenue Commissioners.

5. Arrangements for consideration of Public Service Decentralisation

It was agreed that the issue of public service decentralisation be discussed, in the groups indicated -

with the following invitees on the morning of 28^th July:

1. Mr. Hendrik van der Kamp of Dublin Institute of Technology, Dr. Edward M. Walsh of the University of Limerick, and Professor Michael J. Bannon of University College Dublin;
2. Portlaoise Chamber of Commerce, Westmeath County Council and, to discuss previous experience of decentralisation, the Office of the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Social and Family Affairs; and

with the following invitees on the morning of 29^th July:

1. the Civil and Public Services Union, the Public Service Executive Union and the Association of Higher Civil and Public Servants;
2. other public service unions selected by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions.

It was agreed that the following be invited to discuss decentralisation with the Committee in September:

1. the Minister for Finance;
2. the Minister of State at the Department of Finance with responsibility for the Office of Public Works;
3. the Chairman of the Decentralisation Implementation Group;
4. officials with responsibility for the Central Applications Facility; and
5. representatives of a State agency the decentralising complement of which is significantly undersubscribed to the Central Applications Facility.

The meeting was suspended by agreement from 10.29 to 10.30 a.m.

6. Presentation by officials on EU proposals COM(2004)103 and 104

The Committee heard a presentation by Mr. Dermot Nolan, Department of Finance, on EU proposals COM(2003)103 and 104 which concerned investigations conducted by the European Anti-Fraud Office (OLAF). Mr. Nolan was accompanied by Ms. Evelyn O'Connor, Department of Finance.

Discussion ensued.

The Committee agreed to consider its position on the proposals later in the year following the conclusion of a report by the European Commission on the achievements to date of the OLAF and a management audit of the OLAF by the European Court of Auditors. Mr. Nolan agreed to keep the Committee informed of progress in respect of these examinations.

7. Any other business

There was no other business.

Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 10.59 a.m. until 28^th July.

Sean Fleming T.D.,
Chairman.

28^th July, 2004

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Wednesday, 28^th July, 2004

The Joint Committee met at 9.40 a.m., a quorum being present.

1. Attendance

The following members attended:

Deputies: Richard Bruton, Martin Ferris*, Seán Fleming (in the Chair), Paul McGrath, M.J. Nolan, Ned O'Keeffe, Róisín Shortall* and Liam Twomey.

Senators: Camillus Glynn** and Mary White.

*Deputies Ferris and Shortall substituted for Deputies Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin and Joan Burton respectively.

**Senator Glynn substituted for Senator Martin Mansergh.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputies Joan Burton, Michael Finneran, John McGuinness and Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin and from Senators Jim Higgins and Martin Mansergh.

Minutes of meeting of 14^th July, 2004

Minutes of the meeting of 14^th July, 2004, were agreed.

3. Correspondence

Tralee Beef and Lamb

The Committee had before it a letter dated 5^th July from Deputy Ned O'Keeffe concerning the receivership of Tralee Beef and Lamb. It was agreed that Anglo-Irish Bank and representatives of the company's farmer creditors be invited to make written statements to the Committee with a view to a meeting at an early date.

EU Scrutiny

The Committee had before it a list of the proposals considered by the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny on 1^st July, 2004. The Committee agreed –

1. to scrutinise COM(2004)273 concerning the establishment of a harmonised framework for reinsurance supervision in the EU; and
2. that none of the other proposals listed warranted scrutiny by it.

The Committee had before it a list of the proposals considered by the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny on 21^st July, 2004. The Committee agreed –

1. that COM(2004)327 which provided for a Green Paper on public/private partnerships and Community law on public contracts and concessions did not warrant scrutiny by it;
2. that SEC(2004)910 which provided for a preliminary draft amending budget to the Budget for 2004 did not warrant scrutiny by it;
3. that COM(2004)455 which concerned the taxation of savings income in the form of interest payments did not warrant scrutiny by it;
4. that COM(2004)374 which proposed a White Paper on services of general interest did not warrant scrutiny by it; and
5. that none of the other proposals listed warranted scrutiny by it.

Noting that it had, on 17^th June, agreed to study information provided by the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny before deciding whether or not to scrutinise COM(2004)227, the Committee agreed to scrutinise the proposal which concerned general arrangements for products subject to excise duty and the holding, moving and monitoring of such products.

Statutory Instruments

TheCommittee had before it three statutory instruments. It was agreed not to consider –

1. S.I. 407 of 2004 entitled Finance Act 2004 (Section 52)(Commencement Order) 2004;
2. S.I. 408 of 2004 entitled Finance Act 2004 (Section 53(1)(a)(i))(Commencement) Order 2004; and
3. S.I. 425 of 2004 entitled Finance Act 2004 (Section 33)(Commencement) Order 2004.

South Korean delegation

The Committee had before it an e-mail message from the Embassy of the Republic of Korea requesting that the Committee meet a delegation of the Korean parliament on 13^th August. The Committee agreed that, because of the difficulties associated with a meeting at that time, it was not in a position to accede to the request.

AIB

The Committee had before it a letter dated 22^nd July from Mr. Dermot Gleeson, Chairman, AIB Group, indicating that AIB was now in a position to accede to the Committee's invitation to meet it. It was agreed that a reply issue to Mr. Gleeson informing him that the Committee welcomed the opportunity to meet him and that a date would be confirmed as soon as practicable.

Decentralisation

The Committee had before it a letter dated 19^th July from Ms. Ruth Barrington, Chair of the Association of Chief Executives ofState Agencies. Ms. Barrington enclosed a copy of the Association's submission to the Decentralisation Implementation Committee and offered to discuss this with the Joint Committee. It was agreed that a meeting with the Association be arranged fora date after the August break.

4. Travel Proposal

It was agreed that a delegation of the Committee should visit Washington from 19^th to 23^rd September to examine matters relating to (i) revenue powers, (ii) tax relief on capital investments, and (iii) electronic money transmission.

Noting an estimate of the costs involved, the Committee agreed that 5 members should travel and that the delegation should comprise either the Chairman or vice-Chairman and two members each from Government parties and the opposition to be selected by the Convenors.

The Committee agreed that the timing of the visit was determined by a desire to minimise the absence of members when the Houses are sitting.

The Committee agreed that the destination chosen offered it an opportunity to examine the way in which the issues of interest to the Committee had contributed to the American economy.

The Committee agreed that, in view of the costs involved, economy class travel was practical and reasonable subject to the fares being fully refundable in the event of cancellation.

The Committee agreed that an allocation from the travel budget of up to €18,000 be sought from the Working Group of Committee Chairmen.

5. Any other business

There was no other business.

6. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 10.04 a.m.

Sean Fleming T.D.,
Chairman.

15^th September, 2004

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Wednesday, 28^th July, 2004

The Joint Committee met at 10.24 a.m., a quorum being present.

1. Attendance

The following members attended:

Deputies: Richard Bruton, Joe Costello*, Jimmy Devins*, Martin Ferris*, Seán Fleming (in the Chair), Paul McGrath, M.J. Nolan, Denis O'Donovan*, Ned O'Keeffe, Michael Ring*, Róisín Shortall*, Brendan Smith* and Liam Twomey.

Senators: Camillus Glynn**, Mary O'Rourke*** and Mary White.

*Deputies Costello and Shortall substituted for Deputy Burton; Deputies Devins, Ferris, O'Donovan, Ring and Smith substituted for Deputies Ned O'Keeffe, Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, Michael Finneran, Paul McGrath and John McGuinness respectively.

**Attended in accordance with Standing Order 74(2) [Seanad].

***Senator O'Rourke substituted for Senator Martin Mansergh.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputies Joan Burton, Michael Finneran, John McGuinness and Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin and from Senators Jim Higgins and Martin Mansergh.

2. Public Service Decentralisation

The Committee heard presentations on public service decentralisation by the following:

1. Mr. Hendrik van der Kamp, Head of the School of Environmental Planning, Dublin Institute of Technology;
2. Dr. Edward M. Walsh, President Emeritus, University of Limerick; and
3. Professor Michael J. Bannon, Emeritus Professor, Department of Planning and Environmental Policy, University College Dublin.

Discussion ensued.

The meeting was suspended by agreement from 12.20 p.m. to 12.40 p.m.

The Committee heard presentations on public service decentralisation by the following:

1. Mr. John Keys, Vice-President, and Ms. Margaret Ryan, Chief Executive, Laois Chamber of Commerce;
2. Councillor Dan McCarthy, Leas-Chathaoirleach, and Mr. Eddie Hynes, Deputy County Manager, Westmeath County Council;
3. Mr. Liam Irwin, Collector General, who was accompanied by Mr. Pat Molan, Principal Officer, Office of the Revenue Commissioners; and
4. Ms. Bernadette Lacey, Director General, Department of Social and Family Affairs, who was accompanied by Ms. Anne Tynan, Principal Officer.

Discussion ensued.

3. Any other business

There was no other business.

4. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 2.33 p.m. until 10 a.m. on 29^th July.

Sean Fleming T.D.,
Chairman.

15^th September, 2004

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Thursday, 29^th July, 2004

The Joint Committee met at 10.10 a.m., a quorum being present.

1. Attendance

The following members attended:

Deputies: Richard Bruton, Paudge Connolly*, Seán Fleming (in the Chair), Paul McGrath, Arthur Morgan**, M.J. Nolan, Denis O'Donovan**, Ned O'Keeffe, Seán Ryan** and Liam Twomey.

Senators: Camillus Glynn***, Joe O'Toole and Mary White.

*Attended in accordance with Standing Order 90(3) [Dáil].

**Deputies Morgan, O'Donovan and Ryan substituted for Deputies Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, Michael Finneran and Joan Burton respectively.

***Senator Glynn substituted for Senator Martin Mansergh.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputies Joan Burton, Michael Finneran, John McGuinness and Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin and from Senators Jim Higgins and Martin Mansergh.

2. Public Service Decentralisation

The Committee heard presentations on public service decentralisation by the following:

1. Mr. Liam Berney, Irish Congress of Trade Unions;
2. Mr. Blair Horan, General Secretary, Civil and Public Services Union; Ms. Rosaleen Glacken, Deputy General Secretary, also contributed;
3. Mr. Tom Geraghty, Deputy General Secretary, Public Service Executive Union;
4. Mr. Seán Ó Riordáin, General Secretary, Association of Higher Civil and Public Servants;
5. Mr. Peter Nolan, National Secretary, IMPACT;
6. Mr. Mick Coffey, Joint General Secretary, Federated Union of Government Employees;
7. Ms. Patricia King, Regional Secretary, SIPTU;
8. Mr. John Tierney, National Secretary, AMICUS; and
9. Mr. Roger Hannon, Irish Secretary, Transport Salaried Staffs' Association.

The meeting was suspended by agreement from 11.31 a.m. to 11.55 a.m.

Discussion ensued between contributors and the Committee.

3. Any other business

The Committee agreed that AIB be invited to meet it on 15^th September.

4. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 1.45 p.m. until 15^th September.

Sean Fleming T.D.,
Chairman.

15^th September, 2004

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Wednesday, 15^th September, 2004

The Joint Committee met at 10.10 a.m., a quorum being present.

1. Attendance

The following members attended:

Deputies: Richard Bruton, John Carty*, Jimmy Devins*, Michael Finneran, Seán Fleming (in the Chair), Phil Hogan*, Conor Lenihan, John McGuinness, M.J. Nolan, Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, Denis O'Donovan*, Ned O'Keeffe and Liam Twomey.

Senators: Peter Callanan**, John Hanafin**, Terry Leyden**, Joe O'Toole and Mary White.

*Deputies Devins and O'Donovan substituted for Deputy Conor Lenihan; Deputies Carty and Hogan substituted for Deputies John McGuinness and Paul McGrath respectively.

**Senator Callanan and Hanafin substituted for Senator Martin Mansergh. Senator Leyden substituted for Senator Mary White.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputies Joan Burton and Paul McGrath and from Senators Jim Higgins and Martin Mansergh.

2. Minutes of meetings of 28^th and 29^th July, 2004

Minutes of the meetings of 28^th and 29^th July, 2004, were agreed.

Arising from the minutes of the earlier meeting of 28^th July, the Committee noted that the Chairman and Chief Executive of the AIB Group had confirmed that they would be in a position to meet the Committee on 19^th October. The Committee agreed to meet for this purpose at 3 p.m. on that day.

3. Correspondence

Debt and Development Coalition Ireland

The Committee acceded to a request dated 27^th July from the Debt and Development Coalition Ireland for an opportunity to address the Committee.

Maynooth College Chapel

The Committee noted a reply dated 9^th August by the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Tom Parlon, to its request for further information concerning an application for a grant-in-aid for the refurbishment of Maynooth College Chapel.

Tralee Beef and Lamb

The Committee had before it replies dated 4^th August from Mr. Philip Healy and 25^th August from Anglo Irish Bank arising from requests forinformation on the receivership of Tralee Beef and Lamb made following the meeting of 28^th July. Noting a suggestion made by Anglo Irish Bank, the Committee agreed to seek written statements from the receiver and liquidator.

Bank of Ireland Mortgages

The Committee noted a copy of a letter dated 9^th August from Bank of Ireland Mortgages to one of its customers. The letter had been sent to the Committee by the Bank at the customer's request.

Statutory Instruments

The Committee had before it sixteen statutory instruments. It was agreed not to consider the following statutory instruments:

1. S.I. 454 of 2004 entitled Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland Act 2003 (Commencement) Order (No. 1) 2004;
2. S.I. 455 of 2004 entitled Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland Act 2004 (Commencement) Order 2004;
3. S.I. 456 of 2004 entitled Financial Transfers (Usama bin Laden, Al-Qaida and Taliban of Afghanistan) (Prohibition) Order 2004;
4. S.I. 457 of 2004 entitled European Communities (Usama bin Laden, Al-Qaida and Taliban of Afghanistan) (Sanctions) Regulations 2004;
5. S.I. 458 of 2004 entitled Financial Transfers (Counter Terrorism) Order 2004;
6. S.I. 459 of 2004 entitled European Communities (Counter Terrorism Financial Sanctions) Regulations 2004;
7. S.I. 460 of 2004 entitled Financial Transfers (Iraq) (Prohibition) Order 2004;
8. S.I. 461 of 2004 entitled European Communities (Iraq) (Financial Sanctions) Regulations 2004;
9. S.I. 462 of 2004 entitled Financial Transfers (Zimbabwe) (Prohibition) Order 2004;
10. S.I. 463 of 2004 entitled European Communities (Zimbabwe) (Sanctions) Regulations 2004;
11. S.I. 464 of 2004 entitled Financial Transfers (Liberia) (Prohibition) Order 2004;
12. S.I. 465 of 2004 entitled European Communities (Liberia) (Sanctions) Regulations 2004;
13. S.I. 466 of 2004 entitled Financial Transfers (Burma/Myanmar) (Prohibition) Order 2004;
14. S.I. 467 of 2004 entitled European Communities (Burma/Myanmar) (Sanctions) Regulations 2004.

The Committee agreed to consider S.I. 469 of 2004 entitled Disabled Drivers and Disabled Passengers (Tax Concessions) (Amendment) Regulations 2004. It agreed that the Department of Finance be asked for a briefing note and a copy of the full report prepared for the Minister on the question of amending the Regulations.

The Committee agreed that the Department of Finance be asked for a briefing note on S.I. 470 of 2004 entitled Central Bank Act 1971 (Approval of Scheme of Transfer between Citibank International plc and Citibank Ireland Financial Services plc) Order 2004 and, in particular, explaining the reason the Order is considered necessary.

Decentralisation

The Committee had before it a letter dated 30^th July in which Deputy Liam Twomey proposed that the Taoiseach be invited to make a presentation to the Committee on the formulation of the Government's decentralisation plan. It was agreed to defer consideration of the proposal.

It was further agreed that the Department of Finance be asked to provide the Committee with a monthly report on progress with the implementation of the decentralisation plan.

4. Travel Proposal

Conference in London

The Committee had before it an invitation to the Chairman, or to another person nominated by him, to participate in a conference entitled “Reinventing Retirement: Strategies for an Aging World” in London from 17^th to 19^th November.

The Committee agreed that the way in which proper provision is made for public service and private sector pensions was a matter that fell within the remit of the Committee. It also noted that the Committee had agreed to meet the Irish Insurance Federation to discuss its submission on closing the savings and pensions gap.

The Committee agreed that it was necessary for the Committee to interact and share ideas with other policy makers and experts whose views could help inform its own consideration of matters within its remit.

Noting an estimate of the costs involved, the Committee agreed that it should be represented at the conference by the vice-Chairman.

In view of the small cost difference, it was agreed that business class travel be arranged.

The Committee agreed that an allocation from the travel budget of up to €1,400 be sought from the Working Group of Committee Chairmen.

Conference in Paris

The Committee had before it an invitation from the OECD to attend its High Level Parliamentary Seminar on Corporate Governance in Paris on 7^th October.

The Committee agreed that the subject of the seminar was properly within its remit as it had specifically prioritised scrutiny of the banking sector as a matter for examination and, in particular, as corporate governance standards had been at the heart of its consideration of events at AIB.

The Committee agreed that it was necessary for the Committee to interact and share ideas with other policy makers and experts whose views could help inform its own consideration of matters within its remit.

The Committee agreed that it should be represented at the seminar by two members each from the Government and the opposition sidesto be selected by the Conveners.

The Committee agreed that economy class travel was practical and reasonable subject to the fares being fully refundable in the event of cancellation.

The Committee agreed that an allocation from the travel budget of not more than €5,500 be sought from the Working Group of Committee Chairmen.

The meeting was suspended by agreement from 10.56 to 10.58 a.m.

5. Presentation on decentralisation by the Association of Chief Executives of State Agencies

The Committee heard a presentation on public service decentralisation by Ms. Ruth Barrington, Chairperson, Association of Chief Executives of State Agencies. Ms Barrington was accompanied by –

Mr. Séamus Puirséil, Chief Executive, Higher Education Training Awards Council,

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú, Chief Executive, National Qualifications Authority of Ireland, and Ms. Leonie Lunny, Chief Executive, Comhairle.

Discussion ensued.

Discussion having concluded, the meeting was suspended by agreement from 12.14 to 12.35 p.m.

6. Presentations by Dóchas and the Debt and Development Coalition

The Committee heard presentations –

by Mr. Hans Zomer, Director, Dóchas and Mr. Colin Roche, Advocacy Officer, Oxfam Ireland, on the Government's commitment to reach by 2007 the United Nations' target of spending 0.7 per cent of GNP on overseas development assistance, and

by Ms. Jean Somers, Coordinator and Mr. David Joyce, Board member, Debt and Development Coalition Ireland, on the cancellation of debt owed to the International Monetary Fund and World Bank by the poorest countries and on parliamentary oversight of IMF and World Bank policies.

Discussion ensued.

7. Any other business

There was no other business.

8. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 1.34 p.m. until 2 p.m. on 28^th September.

Sean Fleming T.D.,
Chairman.

6^th October, 2004

Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Wednesday, 6^th October, 2004

The Joint Committee met at 12.12 p.m., a quorum being present.

1. Attendance

The following members attended:

Deputies: Dan Boyle*, Richard Bruton, Joan Burton, Joe Callanan**, Seán Crowe**, Michael Finneran, Seán Fleming (in the Chair), Paul McGrath, John McGuinness, M.J. Nolan, Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, Ned O'Keeffe and Liam Twomey.

Senators: Terry Leyden***.

*Attended in accordance with Standing Order 90(3).

**Deputies Callanan and Crowe substituted for Deputies Conor Lenihan and Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin respectively.

***Senator Leyden substituted for Senator Mary White.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Senators Jim Higgins, Joe O'Toole and Mary White.

2. Minister for Finance

The Committee agreed to convey its congratulations to the recently appointed Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Cowen.

3. Minutes of meeting of 15^th September, 2004

Minutes of the meeting of 15^th September, 2004, were agreed.

4. Correspondence

Civil Service Code of Standards and Behaviour

The Committee noted a letter dated 10^th September from the Department of Finance with which was enclosed an official circular announcing the introduction of the Civil Service Code of Standards and Behaviour and a copy of the memorandum which had sought decisions of the Government in respect of the Code.

Transcripts of Committee meetings

The Committee noted a letter dated 30^th August from the Secretary to the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission in response to the Committee's request that the Commission take account in the staffing of the Office of the need to keep Committee reporting up to date.

Statutory Instruments

The Committee agreed not to consider the National Development Finance Agency Act 2002 (Amendment of Schedule) Order 2004.

The Committee had before it 100 statutory instruments, the numbers and titles of which are listed at Appendix A. The Committee agreed not to consider the statutory instruments.

Disabled Drivers and Disabled Passengers (Tax Concessions) (Amendment) Regulations 2004

Consequent on a request made to the Department of Finance following its last meeting, the Committee had before it (i) a briefing note on Statutory Instrument 469 of 2004 entitled Disabled Drivers and Disabled Passengers (Tax Concessions) (Amendment) Regulations 2004 and (ii) a Report entitled Disabled Drivers and Disabled Passengers (Tax Concessions) Scheme which was made to the Minister by the Interdepartmental Review Group.

The Committee agreed –

1. to list the Scheme as a matter for review on its Work Programme,
2. to inform the Minister of this fact and to ask him to advise the Committee of his the present position concerning the question of revising the criteria for the certification of disability under the Scheme.

EU Scrutiny

The Committee had before it a list of the proposals considered by the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny on 9^th September. The Committee agreed –

1. that COM(2004)468 which concerned value added tax on services provided in the postal sector did not warrant scrutiny by it;
2. that the report of the Joint Committee on Communications, Marine and Natural Resources on an earlier version of the proposal at (i) above be obtained for its information; and
3. that none of the other proposals listed warranted scrutiny by it.

The Committee agreed to defer to the next meeting consideration of a further briefing note which had been requested from the Department of Finance following discussion at the meeting of 14^th July on EU proposal SEC(2004)593. The proposal involved a preliminary draft budget to budget the surplus resulting from the implementation of the 2003 budget.

IFSRA consultation paper

The Committee had before it a notification that the deadline for submissions to an IFSRA consultation paper on financial planning had been extended to 1^st October. The Committee noted that it had agreed on 7^th July that the question of making a submission was a matter for individual members.

Irish Insurance Federation

The Committee agreed to acknowledge receipt from the Irish Insurance Federation of a pre-budget submission and to reconfirm the commitment given following the meeting of 23^rd June to meet representatives of the Federation at a suitable opportunity, subject to the constraints of the Committee's work schedule.

Settlement with Revenue Commissioners

Deputy McGuinness reported that both he and the Chairman had met a person who had been in correspondence with the Committee and who was dissatisfied with the result of his dealings with the Revenue Commissioners and the Ombudsman. Noting that the person disputed that he had given his consent to the settlement reached between the Ombudsman and the Revenue Commissioners, the Committee agreed that the Chairman and Deputy McGuinness and, subject to his availability, Deputy Ó Caoláin, should seek to meet, separately, the Ombudsman and the Revenue Commissioners in order to establish whether a resolution of the matter was possible.

5. Presentations on the Government's Public Service Decentralisation Programme

The Committee heard presentations on public service decentralisation by –

in respect of the Central Applications Facility,

1. Mr.Bryan Andrews, Chief Executive Officer, Civil Service and Local Appointments Commissioners, and
2. Mr. Michael Scanlon, Assistant Secretary, Department of Finance, and in respect of the work of the Decentralisation Implementation Group,
3. Mr. Phil Flynn, Chairman, Decentralisation Implementation Group.

The delegation was accompanied by –

1. Mr. Michael Errity, Department of Finance and Secretary to the Decentralisation Implementation Group, and
2. Ms. Irene Kirwan, Decentralisation Policy Unit, Department of Finance.

Discussion ensued.

6. Any other business

The Committee agreed to include in its Work Programme the Report of the Inspectors into the affairs of National Irish Bank Ltd. and National Irish Bank Financial Services Ltd.

The Committee also agreed to consider difficulties which had arisen in relation to W & R Morrogh, Stockbrokers.

7. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 2.49 p.m. until 3 p.m. on 19^th October.

Sean Fleming T.D.,
Chairman.

19^th October, 2004

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Tuesday, 19^th October, 2004

The Joint Committee met at 3.04 p.m., a quorum being present.

1. Attendance

The following members attended:

Deputies: Dan Boyle*, Richard Bruton, Joan Burton, Michael Finneran, Seán Fleming (in the Chair), M.J. Nolan, Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, Ned O'Keeffe and Paddy McHugh.

Senators: Terry Leyden**, Martin Mansergh, Joe O'Toole, Shane Ross** and Mary White.

*Attended in accordance with Standing Order 90(3) [Dáil].

**Attended in accordance with Standing Order 74(2) [Seanad].

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Senator Jim Higgins.

2. Membership of the Committee

The Chairman drew the attention of the Committee to the appointment by the Dáil on 12^th October of Deputy Paddy McHugh as a member of the Committee in substitution for Deputy Liam Twomey.

3. Minutes of meeting of 6^th October, 2004

Minutes of the meeting of 6^th October, 2004, were agreed.

4. Correspondence

AIB

The Committee noted a letter dated 27^th September from a correspondent in London whose allegation that AIB had sought money that it was not entitled to from the administrator of her late husband's estate had been brought to the attention of the Committee on 14^th July.

The Committee noted a circular letter dated 7^th October from Mr. Niall Murphy on behalf of AIB shareholders committed to the restoration of honesty and integrity throughout AIB.

The Committee noted a letter dated 12^th October from Mr. Dermot Gleeson, Chairman of AIB Group, in which he indicated that both he and the Chief Executive would be constrained in dealing with certain topics in their discussion with the Committee.

Statutory Instruments

The Committee had before it five statutory instruments. It was agreed not to consider –

1. S.I. 427 of 2004 entitled Finance Act 2003 (Section 19) (Commencement) Order 2004;
2. S.I. 543 of 2004 entitled European Communities (Life Assurance) Framework (Amendment) Regulations 2004;
3. S.I. 551 of 2004 entitled Finance Act 2004 (Commencement of Sections 31 and 42) Order 2004;
4. S.I. 570 of 2004 entitled Investor Compensation Act 1998 (Section 18(4)) (Prescription of Bodies and Individuals) Regulations 2004; and
5. S.I. 573 of 2004 entitled Value-Added Tax (Refund of Tax) (Amendment) Order 2004.

EU Scrutiny

The Committee agreed again to defer to the next meeting consideration of a further briefing note which had been requested from the Department of Finance following discussion at the meeting of 14^th July on EU proposal SEC(2004)593. The proposal involved a preliminary draft budget to budget the surplus resulting from the implementation of the 2003 budget.

The Committee had before it a list of the proposals considered by the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny on 30^th September. In accordance with the recommendation of the Sub-Committee, the Committee agreed that the following proposals did not warrant scrutiny by it:

1. COM(2004)495 which concerned a Regulation on the European Regional Development Fund;
2. COM(2004)486 which concerned the business of credit institutions and the capital adequacy of investment firms and credit institutions;
3. COM(2004)494 which proposed a Regulation establishing a Cohesion Fund;
4. COM(2004)487 which concerned the Commission's proposed approach to the next European Union funding round from 2007 to 2013.

The Committee had before it a note of the proposal considered by the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny on 7^th September. In accordance with the recommendation of the Sub-Committee, the Committee agreed that the proposal did not warrant scrutiny by it.

Endowment mortgage holders

The Committee had before it a letter dated 18^th October concerning the position of endowment mortgage holders. The Committee agreed (i) to include the matter in its Work Programme, (ii) to find out the number of mutual companies, relative to the number of public limited companies, involved in the sale of endowment mortgages in Ireland, and (iii) to ask the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority to indicate the present position with its examination of the sale of endowment mortgages.

5. Travel proposals

Committee on Budgets - Brussels

The Committee had before it an invitation from the President of the European Parliament to participate in a Hearing of the Chairs of the Budgetary Committees of the National Parliaments of the European Union on 23^rd November.

The Committee agreed that the hearing was directly and explicitly linked to an area of work in which it had decided to become involved because (i) the Chairman had attended the first in this series of hearings in 2003, (ii) the Committee had since indicated formally that it would be receptive to further such meetings, (iii) members of the Committeehad met the Chairman of the Committee on Budgets of the European Parliament in February, 2004, and (iv) the Committee had been examining aspects of the European Union's budgetary process in the context of Commission proposal SEC(2004)593.

The Committee agreed that it was necessary for the Committee to interact and share ideas with its counterparts in other national parliaments and to play its part in addressing the perception of a democratic deficit by improving lines of communication between the Oireachtas and those in Brussels who have an important input into matters impacting significantly on the Irish national interest.

The Committee agreed that economy class travel was practical and reasonable subject to the fares being fully refundable in the event of cancellation.

The Committee agreed that an allocation from the travel budget of not more than €630 be sought from the Working Group of Committee Chairmen.

Budget Perspectives 2005 conference - Dublin

The Committee noted that Deputy Burton had, on 12^th October, attended a conference hosted by the Economic and Social Research Institute entitled Budget Perspectives 2005 and that there had not been an opportunity to seek agreement in advance for her attendance on behalf of the Committee.

The Committee agreed that the module on the European fiscal framework was relevant to its interest in aspects of the taxation system and European Union budgetary matters and that the focus on the macro-economic background to the budget was relevant to its role in scrutinising the policies of the Minister for Finance.

The Committee agreed that representation at the conference was necessary in order to keep it informed of current thinking on the matters under discussion.

The Committee agreed that an allocation from the travel budget of not more than €150 be sought from the Working Group of Committee Chairmen.

The meeting was suspended by agreement from 3.22 to 3.23 p.m.

6. Issues arising from recent events at AIB

The Committee heard a presentation on issues arising from recent events at AIB Group by Mr. Dermot Gleeson, Chairman of the Group.

Mr. Gleeson was accompanied by Mr. Michael Buckley, Chief Executive.

Deputy Boyle repeated the declaration he had made on 1^st June that his wife was, at present, an employee of AIB at the junior management level and that she was currently on a career break.

Discussion ensued.

7. Any other business

There was no other business.

8. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 6.22 p.m. until 3 p.m. on 27^th October.

Sean Fleming T.D.,
Chairman.

27^th October, 2004

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Wednesday, 27^th October, 2004

The Joint Committee met at 3.10 p.m., a quorum being present.

1. Attendance

The following members attended:

Deputies: Dan Boyle*, Seán Crowe**, Richard Bruton, Joan Burton, Michael Finneran, Seán Fleming (in the Chair), Paul McGrath, John McGuinness, M.J. Nolan, Ned O'Keeffe and Paddy McHugh.

Senators: Martin Mansergh and Mary White.

*Attended in accordance with Standing Order 90(3) [Dáil].

**Attended in Deputy Crowe substituted for Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin.

2. Membership of the Committee

The Chairman drew the attention of the Committee to the appointment by the Committee of Selection of the Seanad on 20^th October of Senator John Paul Phelan as a member of the Committee in substitution for Senator Jim Higgins.

3. Minutes of meeting of 19^th October, 2004

Minutes of the meeting of 19^th October, 2004, were agreed.

4. Correspondence

EU Scrutiny

The Committee noted a further briefing note which had been requested from the Department of Finance following discussion at themeeting of 14^th July on EU proposal SEC(2004)593 and consideration of which had been deferred from the meeting of 19^th October. The proposal involved a preliminary draft budget to budget the surplus resulting from the implementationof the 2003 budget.

The Committee had before it a list of the proposals considered by the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny on 14^th October. In accordance with the recommendation of the Sub-Committee, the Committee agreed that none of the proposals listed warranted scrutiny by it.

Statutory Instruments

The Committee had before it four statutory instruments. It was agreed not to consider:

1. S.I. 644 of 2004 entitled European Communities (Exemption from Tax for Certain Interest and Royalties Payments) Regulations 2004;
2. S.I. 541 of 2004 entitled Finance Act 2002 (Section 136) (Commencement) Order 2004;
3. S.I. 646 of 2004 entitled Finance Act 2002 (Section 43) (Commencement) Order 2004; and
4. S.I. 645 of 2004 entitled Finance Act 2004 (Section 39) (Commencement) Order 2004.

AIB

The Committee noted an anonymous letter dated 11^th October from an official at AIB.

The Committee noted a circular letter dated 22^nd October from Mr. Niall Murphy on behalf of AIB shareholders committed to the restoration of honesty and integrity throughout AIB.

5. Review of draft Work Programme

The Committee had before it salient extracts from its draft Work Programme.

Concerning item 5 on the list of Issues for Examination, the Committee agreed to add regional development to the issues to be focused on in the context of economic development.

Concerning item 1 on the list of Issues for Examination, the Committee agreed to seek a briefing note from the Director of Consumer Affairs of the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority on the way in which charges for ATM services are regulated, with particular reference to differences between the charges made for services obtained on machines located in banks and those located in other commercial premises.

Concerning item 8 on the list of Issues for Examination, the Committee agreed to invite to its next meeting the Chairman of the Revenue Commissioners and practicing representatives of the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Ireland to discuss (i) schemes for tax allowances, reliefs, exemptions and deductions including those in respect of property, and (ii) taxation rules in respect of residency. The Committee agreed that the Revenue Commissioners be asked to provide a written briefing note before the date of the next meeting.

The meeting was suspended by agreement from 3.43 to 3.44 p.m.

6. Public Service Decentralisation Programme

The Committee heard a presentation on the Government's public service decentralisation programme by Deputy Tom Parlon, Minister of State at the Department of Finance.

Discussion ensued.

7. Any other business

There was no other business.

8. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 5.31 p.m. until 3 p.m. on 10^th November.

Sean Fleming T.D.,
Chairman.

10^th November, 2004

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Wednesday, 10^th November, 2004

The Joint Committee met at 3.08 p.m., a quorum being present.

1. Attendance

The following members attended:

Deputies: Dan Boyle*, Richard Bruton, Joan Burton, Michael Finneran, Seán Fleming (in the Chair), Paul McGrath, John McGuinness, Ned O'Keeffe and Paddy McHugh.

Senators: John Paul Phelan, Martin Mansergh and Mary White.

*Attended in accordance with Standing Order 90(3) [Dáil].

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin.

2. Minutes of meeting of 27^th October, 2004

Minutes of the meeting of 27^th October, 2004, were agreed.

3. Correspondence

Statutory Instruments

The Committee had before it a briefing note on Statutory Instrument 470 of 2004 entitled Central Bank Act 1971 (Approval of Scheme of Transfer between Citibank International plc and Citibank Ireland Financial Services plc) Order 2004. The Committee noted the briefing note, which had been sought from the Department of Finance following the meeting of 15^th September, and agreed not to consider the Statutory Instrument further.

The Committee had before it two statutory instruments. It agreed not to consider –

1. S.I. 665 of 2004 entitled Appointment of Special Adviser (Minister for Finance) Order 2004; and
2. the Statutory Instrument entitled Appointment of Special Advisers (Taoiseach and Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach) Order 2004.

EU Scrutiny

The Committee had before it a list of the proposalsconsidered by the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny on 4^th November. In accordance with the recommendation of the Sub-Committee, the Committee agreed that none of the proposals listed warranted scrutiny by it.

Tralee Beef and Lamb

The Committee had before it letters dated 20^th October from Mr. Michael Daly, Receiver, and 4^th November from Mr. Tom Kavanagh, Liquidator, of Tralee Beef and Lamb Ltd. The letters responded to the Committee's request for information issued following the meeting of 15^th September. The Committee noted the letters and agreed to invite representatives of Anglo Irish Bank to meet it at a suitable opportunity.

IFSRA

The Committee noted a letter dated 1^st November from the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority which responded to questions put by members to the Chief Executive of the IFSRA at the meeting of 20^th May.

Combat Poverty Agency

The Committee noted a letter from the Combat Poverty Agency with which was enclosed the Agency's submission on the Budget for 2005.

The meeting was suspended by agreement from 3.19 to 3.21 p.m.

4. Schemes for tax allowances, reliefs, exemptions and deductions; and taxation rules in respect of residency

The Committee heard presentations on schemes for tax allowances, reliefs, exemptions and deductions and taxation rules in respect of residency by the following representatives of the Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland:

Mr. John Greely, Deputy President,
Mr. Pat Costello, Chief Executive, and
Mr. Kieran Ryan, a member of the Institute.

The delegation also included Ms. Marie Barr, a member of the Council of the Institute.

Discussion ensued.

Discussion having concluded, the witnesses withdrew.

The meeting was suspended by agreement from 4.23 to 4.25 p.m.

The Committee heard a presentation on the same topics by Mr. Frank Daly, Chairman of the Revenue Commissioners. Mr. Daly was accompanied by the following staff of the Office of the Revenue Commissioners:

Mr. Seán Moriarty, Assistant Secretary, Head of the Large Cases Division,
Mr. Paddy Molloy, Principal Officer, Head of the Forecasting and Statistics Branch,
Ms. Breda Ruddle, Principal Officer, Large Cases Division, and
Mr. Paddy O'Shaughnessy, Principal Officer and Liaison Officer to Oireachtas Committees.

Discussion ensued.

Discussion having concluded, the witnesses withdrew.

5. Any other business

There was no other business.

6. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 6.08 p.m. sine die.

Sean Fleming T.D.,
Chairman.

15^th December, 2004

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Wednesday, 15^th December, 2004

The Joint Committee met at 10.44 a.m., a quorum being present.

1. Attendance

The following members attended:

Deputies: Richard Bruton, Joan Burton, John Cregan, Michael Finneran, Seán Fleming (in the Chair), Paul McGrath, John McGuinness, M.J. Nolan and Ned O'Keeffe.

Senators: Joe O'Toole and Mary White.

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin.

2. Minutes of meeting of 10^th November, 2004

Minutes of the meeting of 10^th November, 2004, were agreed.

3. Correspondence

Endowment mortgage holders

The Committee had before it a reply dated 19 November 2004 from IFSRA to the Committee's recent letter regarding the Authority's ongoing examination of the endowment mortgage market. The Committee agreed to invite IFSRA to discuss the issue before the Authority completes its review.

Settlement with the Revenue Commissioners

The Chairman reported to the Committee that, on 24^th November, he and Deputy McGuinness had met with the Ombudsman and that he and Deputies McGuinness and Ó Caoláin's met the Chairman of the Revenue Commissioners. The Committee, noting that it had become clear from the Ombudsman's Office's contemporaneous records that the taxpayer had in fact consented to the settlement, agreed that Committee has exhausted all options available to it and has no further role in this case. The Committee noted that the Ombudsman had undertaken to examine the way in which her recommendations are communicated to complainants with a view to ensuring that the limits to her powers are clearly understood.

Decentralisation

The Committee had two sets of documents:

1. the first of the monthly reports on the implementation of the Government's decentralisation programme which the Committee had requested from the Department of Finance at its meeting on 15^th September, and
2. a set or reports and a press release concerning the implementation of the programme.

The Committee decided to request the Department that future monthly reports should be in the format of short tabular reports setting out in detail the progress that has been made with the implementation of the decentralisation plan, including the buildings sold, bought or acquired and the number of sections and civil servants moved in respect of each location.

Work Programme

The Committee agreed that the prioritisation of the Strategic Management Initiative would be considered in early 2005 in the Work Programme for 2005.

EU Scrutiny

The Committee had before it a list of the proposals considered by the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny on 25^th November. The Committee agreed that COM(2004)733 which proposes a Council Decision concerning the signature and conclusion of the Agreement between the European Community and Monaco providing for the taxation of savings income did not warrant scrutiny by it.

In relation to SEC(2004)593 which proposes a preliminary draft budget to budget the surplus resulting from the implementation of the 2003 EU budget, the Chairman said he raised the issue at the budget committee meeting of the European Parliament in Brussels and was informed by the Chairman of the budget committee that there had been a dramatic improvement since 2003 in the way the potential budgetary surpluses are managed. The Committee decided the proposal did not warrant scrutiny by it.

On 6^th October the Committee agreed not to scrutinise COM(2004)468 which concerned VAT on services provided in the postal sector as this proposal is being examined by the Joint Committee on Communications, Marine and Natural Resources and that Committee has not reported on the original proposal. The Committee noted the position.

Statutory Instruments

The Committee had before it five statutory instruments. It agreed not to consider –

1. S.I. 698 of 2004 entitled Ethics in Public Office (Designated Positions in Public Bodies) Regulations 2004;
2. S.I. 699 of 2004 entitled Ethics in Public Office (Prescribed Public Bodies, Designated Directorships of Public Bodies and Designated Positions in Public Bodies) Regulations 2004;
3. S.I. 693 of 2004 entitled European Communities (Financial Transparency) Regulations 2004;
4. S.I. 707 of 2004 entitled Valuation Act 2001 (Global Valuation) (Waterways Ireland) Order 2004; and
5. S.I. 708 of 2004 entitled Valuation Act 2001 (Global Valuation) (Iarnród Éireann) Order 2004.

Expenditure Review Initiative

The Committee had before it the first formal report to the Minister for Finance by the Expenditure Review Central Steering Committee. The Committee agreed to:

1. invite the Chairman of the Steering Committee to meet the Joint Committee early in the New Year to discuss progress with the Expenditure Review Initiative;
2. write to the Chairman of the Commissioners of Public Works seeking his views in writing on issues affecting the capacity of OPW to participate fully in the Expenditure Review Initiative.

Freedom of Information legislation

The Committee had before it a letter from the Information Commissioner informing the Committee that she has as yet been unable to furnish a report to the Committee under section 32 of the Freedom of Information Act 1997 as four Departments had yet to furnish reports to her. The Commissioner had originally intended to report to the Committee by late September or early October but now proposes to defer concluding her report until the remaining reports from Departments have been received. The Committee, noting a report had been received from the Department of Health and Children, agreed that this would be acceptable and that the Chairman should write to each of the threeMinisters whose reports were outstanding asking them to report as soon as possible.

Feasta

The Committee noted a circular letter from Feasta, the Foundation for the Economics of Sustainability, concerning anticipated legislation, to be sponsored bythe Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, which would allow the Irish Nationwide Building Society to shed its mutual status. The Committee deferred to the next meeting consideration of any appropriate course of action.

Study of Competition in the (non-investment) Banking Sector by the Competition Authority

The Committee noted that the Competition Authority had issued its Study of Competition in the (non-investment) Banking Sector, Draft Recommendations & Consultation Paper on14^th December 2004. The Committee agreed that it should make a submission to the Competition Authority in the context of its examination of bank charges and interest rates.

Tralee Beef and Lamb

The Committee had before it a letter from the IFA to the farmer creditors of Tralee Beef and Lamb which indicated that the creditors have been seeking a financial contribution from Bank of Ireland to a creditors' fund. The Committee noted the letter and agreed to await a meeting with representatives of Anglo Irish Bank, which was agreed to at the last meeting of 10^th November, before reviewing the situation.

AIB

The Committee had before it a letter from Deputy Joan Burton concerning the IFSRA report on Investigations in AIB Group on Foreign Exchange and Other Charging Issues & Deal Allocation and Associated Issues. The Committee agreed to invite the Chairman of IFSRA to the next meeting of the Joint Committee to discuss:

1. the Report of the Inspectors appointed (under section 8 of the Companies Act 1990) to investigate the affairs of National Irish Bank Limited and National Irish Bank Financial Services Limited, and
2. the above-mentioned IFSRA report on AIB, including the issues of probity and fitness referred to in section 5, Part 4, of that report.

4. Consideration of Travel Reports

The Committee noted the report of the delegation which attended, on behalf of the Committee, the Annual Meeting of the British and Irish Ombudsman Association in London in May 2004. The Committee noted a preliminary notice from the organisers of the Conference that next year's meeting will take place on the 7^th and 8^th April 2005 and that a formal invitation will be put before the Committee in due course.

The Committee noted a report from the delegation which attended, on behalf of the Committee, the OECD High Level Parliamentary Seminar on Corporate Governance in Paris in October 2004.

5. Any other business

There was no other business.

6. Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 11.45 a.m. sine die.

Sean Fleming T.D.,
Chairman.

19^th January, 2005