Apologies were received from Deputies Caoimhghín O Caoláin and Liam Twomey and Senators Jim Higgins and Martin Mansergh.

2.Minutes:

The minutes of the last meeting were not agreed due to the omission of certain Deputies from the list of attendees.

3.Correspondence:

The Chairman referred to a number of items of correspondence:

•Correspondence sent to Deputy Bruton from the Debt and Development Coalition, Ireland asking if they could make a presentation to the Committee — the Committee decided to invite them in to address the Committee as soon as is practicable.

•A letter from Deputy Burton regarding the limit on the contribution from Religious Orders to compensation for victims of abuse while in institutional care. This item was later addressed in the context of the discussion on the Work Programme.

•A letter from the Irish Charities Tax Reform Group requesting a meeting to discuss matters of interest to them. The Committee decided that the Chairman meet a delegation from this group himself to discuss the issues.

•Correspondence from the Finnish Embassy regarding a seminar in Helsinki on 27 and 28 February. This seminar is primarily aimed at senior civil servants, however, the Embassy have stated that the invitation can be extended to parliamentarians also and mainly concerns a discussion on the budgetary implications of enlargement of the EU. The Committee did not take a decision to travel to this conference as it clashes directly with Committee Stage of the Finance Bill.

•Circulated at the meeting a note from Deputy O Caoláin listing some issues he wanted included in the discussion on the work programme.

4.EU Scrutiny:

After an initial discussion on the EU proposals before the Committee, it was agreed to scrutinize further the three proposals that were referred by the sub-committee on EU Scrutiny for detailed scrutiny and to invite in either Departmental officials or the Minister to brief the Committee on the implications of the proposals for Ireland. These proposals were Com (2002) 207 regarding the commercial exploitation of public sector documents; Com (2002) 410 regarding the introduction of special tax arrangements for diesel fuel used for commercial purposes and to align excise duties on petrol and diesel fuel and Com (2002) 625 which proposes to modernize legislation for investment services and regulated markets. It was also agreed by the Committee to note the other proposals that were not referred for scrutiny and to report back to the sub-committee on EU Scrutiny the decisions taken.

5.Discussion on the Work Programme:

A discussion then took place on the Work Programme for the Committee, at which the Committee decided to examine the following issues:

•The Ombudsman’s report on redress for taxpayers — both the Revenue Commissioners and the Ombudsman are to be invited to appear before the Committee.

•The financial implications of the liability of the State in relation to the redress payments to victims of institutional child abuse.

•The National Development Plan — to examine this issue after the Committee had received an Executive Summary of the most recent report on the plan — the timing of the meeting to be then decided.

•The Revenue Commissioners on the issues of forecasting, tax breaks and to issue to the Revenue in advance of any possible meeting, a list of the proposed issues that the Committee would wish to address, giving the Revenue a chance to have an informed response to the questions put to them.

•Public/Private Partnerships — it was decided to address this issue in the context of the Report on the National Development Plan.

•Strategic Management Initiative — it was decided to look at the possibility of setting up a sub-committee on SMI at a later date.

•Freedom of Information Act — to wrap up the issue of FOI Review.

•Civil Service Code of Standards and Behaviour this issue and the above issue, it was decided by the Committee, were not as high a priority as other issues listed on the Programme.

It was requested by Deputy Bruton and agreed that the Clerk would have a short list of the hearings that the Committee hope to have over the next few months, at the next meeting.

6.Adjournment:

The meeting was adjourned until 5 February, 2003.

Seán Fleming T.D.,

Chairman.

19 February, 2003

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Wednesday, 12 February, 2003.

The Joint Committee met in public session at 9.30 a.m. in Committee Room 3, LH 2000, a quorum being present.

1.Attendance:

The following members attended:

Apologies were received from Senator Jim Higgins.

It was decided and agreed by the Committee that the presentations from the Ombudsman and the Chairman of the Revenue Commissioners, would be taken as the first item on the Agenda, and to take the rest of the business of the meeting later on. The Committee was to meet with a delegation from the UK’s Treasury Committee regarding the UK and the Euro— however, due to logistical difficulties, the meeting was cancelled at the request of the British delegation, at short notice.

2.Presentation by the Ombudsman on his Report “Redress for Taxpayers”.

The Committee heard a presentation from the Ombudsman, Mr. Kevin Murphy on his Special Report “Redress for Taxpayers” which followed a rejection by the Revenue Commissioners to make full repayments to two widows and to compensate taxpayers when refunds are wrongly delayed. Following an investigation, the Ombudsman made five recommendations to the Revenue.

The Committee then heard from the Chairman of the Revenue Commissioners, Mr. Frank Daly, on his response to the above report. After outlining their position, he stated that Revenue had implemented two of the recommendations and a third was being addressed in the context of the Finance Bill, 2003. However, two have still not been addressed and relate to compensation for loss of purchasing power and loss of interest.

Two members of the Committee drafted a motion on the issue at the meeting, however it was agreed, that the Committee would look at drafting a Report for presentation to both Houses of the Oireachtas on the issue.

3.Minutes:

The revised minutes of the meeting of 12 December and 22 January were agreed.

4.Correspondence:

•There was no correspondence relevant to this meeting.

5.EU Scrutiny:

After an initial discussion on the EU proposals before the Committee, it was agreed to scrutinize further the two proposals that were referred by the sub-committee on EU Scrutiny for detailed scrutiny and to invite in Departmental officials or the Minister to brief the Committee on the implications of the proposals for Ireland. These proposals were Com (2002) 207 regarding the commercial exploitation of public sector documents and Com (2002) 625 which proposes to modernize legislation for investment services and regulated markets. It was also agreed by the Committee to note the other proposals that were not referred for scrutiny and to report back to the sub-committee on EU Scrutiny the decisions taken.

6.Discussion on the Work Programme:

•A list of future hearings by the Committee, in the context of its Work Programme, was circulated to members. It was agreed to have final agreement on these topics at its next meeting.

7.Legal Advice on the Redress issue for victims of Child Abuse in State Institutions:

The Committee agreed to hear the advice of the Parliamentary Legal Advisor in private on the above issue.

8.Travel Proposal:

The Committee agreed to allow the Vice-Chair and a staff member travel business class to represent the Committee at a conference in Helsinki on The New Financial Framework — Challenging EU Road for the Future” between 26 and 28 February.

Time-slot change:

The Committee agreed to a change in the time-slot for Joint Committee meetings from 9.30 a.m. every second Wednesday to 3 p.m. on the same day/week.

9.Adjournment:

The meeting was adjourned until 5 March, 2003.

Seán Fleming T.D.,

Chairman.

05 March, 2003

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Wednesday, 5 March, 2003.

The Joint Committee met in public session at 3 p.m. in Committee Room 1, LH 2000, a quorum being present.

1.Attendance:

The following members attended:

Deputies: Richard Bruton, Joan Burton, Seán Fleming, Conor Lenihan, M.J. Nolan, Caoimhghin O Caoláin and Liam Twomey.

Senators: Jim Higgins, Martin Mansergh and Mary White.

2.Scrutiny of EU Proposals:

•Briefing on Com (2002) 207 — Commercial Exploitation of Public Sector documents:

The first briefing was on proposal Com (2002) 207 regarding the Commercial Exploitation of Public Sector documents. The Department of Finance was represented by Mr. Colm McGlynn who made the presentation to the Committee. In it he outlined the broad thrust of the proposal saying the EU Commission believed there is significant potential in the market for information held by public sector bodies and believed there is scope for adding value to this information and thereby stimulating the eContent industry. This briefing was followed by a question and answer session, after which the Committee decided to have a report drawn up reflecting the various views of the Committee on the proposal. This was to be drafted for submission to the Committee at its next Joint meeting.

•Briefing on Com (2002) 625 on a new Financial Services Directive:

This briefing was given by Mr. Colm Breslin of the Department of Finance, accompanied by Mr. John Moore and by two officials from the Central Bank, Mr. Donncha Connolly and Ms. Downey Keegan.

Mr. Breslin outlined to the Committee the background to the existing Investment Services Directive which was adopted in 1993 and which did not, in some respects, achieve its full potential. The primary objective of this new proposal is to give investment firms a more effective “single passport” which would allow them to operate more freely across the EU on the basis of authorization and supervision by the Competent Authority in their ‘home’ Member State and by limiting the restrictions that can be applied by the ‘host’ Member State. When the briefing concluded, there was a question and answer session by the Members. The Committee decided that they were happy with the approach that the Department of Finance were taking and wanted this fact reflected in the Report to be laid before both Houses on its consideration of this proposal.

•Current EU Scrutiny proposals:

The Committee agreed with the recommendations of the Sub-Committee on EU Scrutiny that no further scrutiny was necessary by this Committee on the proposals referred to in its letter of 13 February.

3.Correspondence:

•The letter from the PAC regarding redress for victims of child abuse in State institutions was discussed. The Committee decided that it wanted to invite in the Minister for Finance and the officials from his Department who were involved in the decision on the indemnity deal struck with the religious institutions and that the Clerk to the Committee liaise with the relevant Deputies to draw up a list of it’s queries on this matter to be sent to the Department of Finance in advance of any meeting.

•The Committee decided that the Chair should represent the Committee at a meeting in the European Parliament on 22 April regarding national convergence and stability programmes.

•It was decided to have wider consultations in regard to the FOI (Amendment) Bill, 2003 which is shortly to be referred to the Committee and that the following groups be invited to appear before the Committee to give their views on the issue:

-The High Level Review Group, and to ask them to provide in advance copies of the papers that informed their decision,

-The Information Commissioner,

-The NUJ,

-The NNI ( The National Newspapers of Ireland), and,

-The Irish Council for Civil Liberties.

•The notification of the next ECOFIN meeting on 7 March was noted.

4.Ombudsman’s Special Report “Redress for Taxpayers”.

•It was decided not to proceed further with the motion on the issue of Redress for Taxpayers as addressed in the Ombudsman’s Special Report and to instead make a report to the Dáil and Seanad on the matter, reflecting the further developments that occurred at Committee and Report Stages of the Finance Bill 2003, which ultimately meant all of the recommendations made by the Ombudsman were met.

5.Adjournment:

The meeting ended at 18.13 p.m . and was adjourned sine die……….

Seán Fleming T.D.,

Chairman.

16 April, 2003

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Wednesday, 13 March, 2003.

The Joint Committee met in public session at 10.30 a.m. in Committee Room 3, LH 2000, a quorum being present.

1.Attendance:

The following members attended:

Deputy Michael Finneran, the Vice-Chair, acted as temporary Chairperson at 5.10 p.m.

2.Presentations on the Report of the High Level Review Group to the Government on the Freedom of Information Act, 1997.

The Committee heard a presentation from the High Level Review Group, represented by Mr. Dermot McCarthy, Mr. Mr. Paul Haran, Ms. Julie O’Neil, and Mr. Eddie Sullivan — Mr. Dermot Gallagher of the High Level Group was substituted by Ms. Marie Cross. Mr. McCarthy’s main point was that the group did not consider that it was within the remit given to them by the Government to have wider consultations, but to report on their findings based on their own experiences and on reports that were already in the public domain. It was clear at the conclusion of the presentation that the group only saw itself as having an input into the process.

The Committee next heard from the Information Commissioner, who explained he felt he was entitled under Section 39 of the FOI Act to produce a commentary on the workings of the Act, as he had not been consulted in advance of the review of that Act. He stressed the distinction between policy and the issue of the implementation of legislation, a distinction he emphasized he was fully aware of as he drafted his commentary.

The presentation following was by Dr. Maeve McDonagh, a leading academic in the field of FOI research and a member of the FOI Citizens Advisory Group. In her presentation she reflected the international dimension. She accepted the extension of the confidentiality of Cabinet records from 5 to 10 years, but had reservations about the following issues:

•Extension of protection to Cabinet records and the very broad definition of Government

•The change to the nature of the public interest test regarding the deliberative process, in favour of closure,

•The introduction of up-front fees,

•The change allowing certification by Secretaries-General,

•The change under international relations from a harm based test to a class exemption,

•The introduction of a fee for appealing against refusals to grant access to records.

The National Union of Journalists then made a presentation, represented by Ms. Mary Maher, Mr. Séamus Dooley, Mr. Ronan Brady, Mr. Fergal Bowers and Mr. Richard Dowling. They emphasized their disappointment at the lack of wider consultations in advance of the Bill being published and their opposition to the introduction of a flat rate fee. They also stressed their concern at, amongst other things, the narrowing of the definition of personal information and the changes in Section 19 and 20 of the Act.

The final group to be heard was the National Newspapers of Ireland. This group was represented by Mr. Frank Cullen, Ms Gerard Colleran, Mr. Jim Farrelly and Ms. Rose Kelly. Mr. Cullen opened by expressing the dismay of the NNI at the secretive manner in which the review was undertaken and at the substance and nature of the amendments. He contested that this Bill was not minimal, as suggested by senior Government members and said it rowed back on some of the original Act’s most progressive provisions. He asked that the Committee take whatever steps it could to have consideration of the Bill deferred until a reasoned and meaningful discussion could be undertaken on it.

The Committee decided to have further hearings on the following Wednesday 19 March, and to defer, with the agreement of the Irish Council for Civil Liberties, their presentation until that date. The Committee also agreed to have a report prepared in the interim and to have it finalized at the following meeting.

3.Correspondence:

Consideration of correspondence was deferred until the following week.

4.Adjournment:

The meeting ended at 8.10 p.m . and was adjourned until 19 March, 2003.

Seán Fleming T.D.,

Chairman.

16 April, 2003

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Wednesday, 19 March, 2003.

The Joint Committee met in public session at 10.30 a.m. in Committee Room 2, LH 2000, a quorum being present.

1.Attendance:

The following members attended:

2.Presentations on Freedom of Information and related matters:

The Committee first heard a presentation from Ms. Aisling Reidy and Mr. Liam Herrick of the Irish Council for Civil Liberties. Ms. Reidy spoke about the issue of the human rights perspective of this legislation and felt that this had been ignored by the High Level Review Group in their recommendations to the Government. She also stated that the manner in which the High Level Review Group was tasked to consider the operation of the Act was extraordinary as was the way in which the group’s report was used to amend the legislation. She and Mr. Herrick also emphasized that their group’s main concerns were:

3.Presentation by The Wheel — a network group representing the voluntary and community sector:

This group was represented by Ms. Deirdre Garvey and Mr. Mathew Hamilton. The three main concerns of this group were as follows:

4.Presentation by the One-in-Four Group:

Mr. Colm O’Gorman, Director of the group, made the presentation on the group’s behalf, concentrating on the amendment to section 6 of the Freedom of Information Act, 1997 — ( i. e. changing of “relates to” to “contains” in relation to records regarding personal information) and said he was guided and informed by the report of the Information Commissioner and the wider public debate. He went on to say the passing of the amendment will further silence and suppress the already isolated voices of children and adults who have already been abused and that in a modern and progressive society that purports to care for its citizens this cannot be allowed to happen.

5.Correspondence:

The following correspondence was noted;

It was decided that all correspondence and submissions to the Committee on this issue be published in the form of a Report to be laid before both Houses, as soon as possible. As it would not be possible in the time available to lay a Report in this much detail by the next day, it was decided to lay a short report by the next day and a fuller report by the following week — Tuesday, if possible.

There was a suspension from 2.03pm until 3.45pm, for lunch, during which the Chair clarified that it was not possible to have the time-table for the passing of the Bill amended. The Committee was told by the Chair that the likely dates for the Bill to come to the Committee for consideration were 1 and 2 April, 2003.

6.Adjournment:

The meeting ended at 4.23 pm. sine die.

Seán Fleming T.D.,

Chairman.

16 April, 2003

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Wednesday, 16 April, 2003.

The Joint Committee met in public session at 3 p.m. in Committee Room 4, LH 2000, a quorum being present.

1.Attendance:

The following members attended:

Deputies: Richard Bruton, Seán Fleming, Paul McGrath, M.J. Nolan, Caoimhghin O Caoláin, Ned O’Keeffe and Liam Twomey.

Senators: Mary White.

2.Minutes:

The minutes of the meetings of 5, 13 and 19 March were agreed and signed by the Chairman.

3.Scrutiny of EU Proposals:

a)The next item on the agenda was consideration of the draft reports on two legislative proposals scrutinized by this Committee at its last Joint meeting on 5 March. At that meeting the Committee decided that it was happy with the approach being pursued by the Department of Finance in relation to the second of the two proposals under discussion today; the one dealing with a new Investment Services Directive. This was reflected in the draft report before the Committee, which they agreed to lay before both Houses of the Oireachtas.

b)The second draft report was on the Commercial Exploitation of Public Sector documents. This draft was also under discussion today and members broadly agreed with the summation of their views in the it. It was formally agreed by the Committee to lay this Report before the Houses of the Oireachtas, with the proviso that a further sentence be appended to the effect that despite the advice of the Department of Finance on the non-obligation principle and the fact that the public sector is not expected to make any substantial profit from the re-use of its documents, the Committee still stood over its original opinion on the matter.

c)Current legislative proposals referred by the Sub-Committee on EU Scrutiny:

On 25 February and 12 March the Sub-committee on EU Scrutiny met to consider a further range of proposals, none of which were referred to this Committee for scrutiny. The Committee agreed with this recommendation.

On 2 April a proposal was referred to this Committee, with cross-cutting issues relevant for the Enterprise and Small Business Committee (Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment being the lead Department) and the Education and Science Committee. It relates to document Com (2003) 27 regarding a European Commission Green paper entitled “Entrepreneurship in Europe”. The Committee agreed to scrutinize this green paper at its next scheduled meeting on 30 April.

4.Draft Report on Ombudsman’s Special Report “Redress for Taxpayers”:

At its meeting of 5 March the Committee decided to go ahead with the its original intention of producing a report on this matter, but to amend it to reflect the developments in the context of the amendments introduced at Committee and Report Stages of the Finance Bill 2003, which meant all of the Ombudsman’s recommendations were addressed. This had been done and the draft Report was circulated for discussion and for final approval at this meeting before laying before both Houses. The Committee broadly agreed with the report. However, Deputy Bruton did emphasise that he was concerned that future cases similar to the cases of the ten widows covered by the ex-gratia scheme may come to light and he would like the Committee to examine such cases if they arise. The Chairman , however, got the agreement of the Committee to the fact that the report before the Committee for consideration today was specifically addressing the cases raised in the Ombudsman’s Special Report on Redress for taxpayers and quoted from the final letter from the Ombudsman to the Committee on the issue which stated that he was very pleased with the outcome of the Committee’s deliberations on the matter. The members then agreed to the Report and to have Deputy Bruton’s concerns reflected in these minutes.

5.Draft Work Programme:

It was agreed to defer discussion on the draft Work Programme until its next meeting on 30 April. However, some of the members raised issues they would like to have covered in the programme:

Deputy O Caoláin raised the following issues:

•To bring in the Minister for Finance in relation to Third World Debt and Government policy in relation to the World Bank and the IMF

•The National Pension Reserves Fund and the possibility of inviting in the Minister for Finance and the NTMA to discuss the way in which the fund is being invested;

•The National Development Plan — he thinks this should be examined/reviewed by the Committee on an annual basis and addressing in particular its relevance in relation to the National Spatial Strategy and changing economic circumstances.

Deputy Bruton supported Deputy O Caoláin on the first and third of the above issues and raised the issues of:

•overruns of 54% on the cost of the NDP and to invite in the Minister for Finance to ask him if the issues are beyond the control of the Public Sector or have they arisen because of poor design.

•He also wanted PPP’s to be examined and how they were initially assessed by the Department of Finance.

•The stability pact issue was another he mentioned he’d like examined and how the 3% restriction can be overcome.

•Under/overestimations by the Department of Finance was also requested by him to be put on the Programme of Work

•The Redress issue for victims of child abuse in State institutions was another he raised.

•Senator White supported the examination of the NDP programme and also wanted the increase in infrastructural costs and inflation examined and if the Committee could in some way explain to the public what is happening in relation to the reduction in public sector spending.

It was requested that a priority listing be made available to the Committee before the next meeting at which the Work Programme is to be be examined.

6.Correspondence:

•A letter from the Professional Insurance Brokers of Ireland regarding the effects of the Insurance Act, 2000 on the industry. The PIBI want to present their case to the Committee in advance of the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland (No. 2) Bill and the Financial Services (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2002. The Committee agreed to invite this association to appear before them to make their case well in advance of the above legislation being referred to them.

•A letter from the National Newspapers of Ireland thanking the Committee for giving them the opportunity to address the Committee on the FOI issue. This was noted by the Committee.

•A letter from the Committee on Education and Science regarding the Committee considering, as a matter of urgency, the role of the impact of PPP’s on the General Government Debt as a possible cause of the delay in the building of a new facility for the Cork School of Music. The Committee decided to consider this in the broader context of considering PPP’s in general and in particular, the issue of a relaxation of the stability pact rules for countries like Ireland with an infrastructural deficit.

•A notification regarding the Agenda for the next ECOFIN meeting. This was noted by the Committee.

•A copy of a letter sent to Revenue from the Transport Committee regarding the retention of tax by airlines. This was also noted by the Committee.

7.Any other business:

The Committee agreed to have its next meeting on the 30 April and the Agenda to include scrutinizing the Green paper on Entrepreneurship and final consideration of issues for the Work Programme. It was also agreed that the Revised Estimates be taken in early June and that the Secretariat liaise with the Departments regarding dates. The Chairman also reminded the members that the Commission Bill was still outstanding and will be dealt with in the near future.

8.Adjournment:

The meeting ended at 3.55 p.m. and was adjourned until 30 April.

Seán Fleming T.D.,

Chairman.

30 April, 2003

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Wednesday, 30 April, 2003.

The Joint Committee met in public session at 3 p.m. in Committee Room 4, LH 2000, a quorum being present.

1.Attendance:

The following members attended:

Deputies: Richard Bruton, Michael Finneran, Seán Fleming, Paul McGrath, John McGuinness, M.J. Nolan and Liam Twomey.

2.Minutes:

The minutes of the meetings of 16 April were agreed and signed by the Chairman.

3.Scrutiny of EU Proposals:

•Briefing on Com (2003) 27 regarding a green paper on Entrepreneurship in Europe:

This briefing was given by Ms. Bridget McManus of the Department of Finance, accompanied by Mr. Liam Murphy and Mr. Pat Leahy and by an official from the Revenue Commissioners, Mr. Jim Kelly.

Ms. McManus addressed the taxation issues raised in the Commission’s Green paper, in a fair amount of detail e.g. on the current Irish position as it specifically affects business; on the tax treatment of Business transfers; on the Business Expansion and Seed Capital Schemes; on Employee Financial Participation and on tax obstacles to cross-border activity. When the briefing concluded, there was a question and answer session by the Members. It was decided to lay a report on the matter before the Houses to the effect that the Committee examined the matter and no issues of particular concern were raised.

•Current legislative proposals referred by the Sub-Committee on EU Scrutiny:

On 16 April the Sub-committee on EU Scrutiny met to consider a further range of proposals, only one of which was referred to this Committee for scrutiny. The Committee agreed with the sub-committee’s recommendations, but didn’t take a decision on a date for being briefed by the Department of Finance on the issue that was referred.

4.Draft Work Programme:

It was agreed to defer discussion on the draft Work Programme until its next meeting on 14 May. However, some of the members raised issues they would like to have covered in the programme. Senator White raised the issue of having benchmarking put on the programme and its implications for sustainability in the economy and how productivity in the public sector will be increased as a result of the agreement.

5.Correspondence:

•There was no correspondence for the attention of the Committee at this meeting.

6.Any other business:

The Committee agreed to have its next meeting on the 14 April and the Agenda to include finalisation of the draft Work Programme and a discussion on the National Pensions Reserve Fund. It was also agreed to consider the Revised Estimates on 18 June. In that context Deputy Bruton asked that the briefing provided by Departments on their respective Votes be made more meaningful and include operational reports that link activity and expenditure.

7.Adjournment:

The meeting ended at 4.22 p.m. and was adjourned until 14 May.

Seán Fleming T.D.,

Chairman.

14 May, 2003

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Wednesday, 14 May, 2003.

The Joint Committee met in public session at 2 p.m. in Committee Room 1, LH 2000, a quorum being present.

1.Attendance:

The following members attended:

Deputies: Richard Bruton, Joan Burton, Michael Finneran, Seán Fleming (Chair), Conor Lenihan, Paul McGrath, M.J. Nolan, Caoimhghín O Caoláin, Ned O’Keeffe and Liam Twomey.

Senators: Jim Higgins, Joe O’Toole and Mary White.

2.Minutes:

The minutes of the meeting of 30 April were agreed and signed by the Chairman.

3.Referral of Motion re the revocation of Freedom of Information Act 1997 (Miscellaneous Revocations) Regulations 2003 (Department of Finance):

The next item dealt with was the above motion in draft which was referred to the Joint Committee for consideration by the Dáil and Seanad. Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Tom Parlon T.D. attended the meeting to brief the Committee on the draft regulations. After the presentation there was a question and answer session with the Minister.

A message was later prepared for transmission to the Clerks of the Dáil and Seanad to the effect that the Committee had considered this Motion.

4.Correspondence:

There was no correspondence relevant to this meeting.

5.Draft Work Programme:

The draft Work Programme was discussed in detail. Some of the members proposed additional items for inclusion e.g. Senator Higgins asked that the issue of decentralization be included; Deputy Burton asked that discussion papers be forwarded in advance of meetings so that members have time to consider the detail before the meetings. The members also asked that a time-frame be put on the Work Programme. It was also decided that the Committee write to the National Pensions Reserve Fund Commissioners and invite them to come before the Committee to discuss the management of the Fund, despite the fact that information received from initial enquiries to the Department of Finance indicated that the Commissioners were to report to the Public Accounts Committee. The Committee also agreed that it wanted a comprehensive briefing from the Department of Finance on PPP’s — this was to be arranged by the Clerk in the meantime.

6.Correspondence:

There was no correspondence for the attention of the Committee at this meeting.

7.Discussion on Estimates:

The Committee agreed with the Chairman that it is pointless discussing Estimates or Budgets for Government Departments half-way through the accounting year- i.e. in June, when the Budget is in place since January and probably half of the funding allocated has already been spent. The Chairman emphasised that this Committee would prefer if the Estimates were considered by the Committee when negotiation on the budgets has concluded, say in November each, before Department’s begin spending the money. The Committee were in full agreement with this. Deputy Bruton asked that at the Estimates meeting, discussion be opened on this topic with the Minister.

8.Adjournment:

As there was no other business, the meeting was adjourned at 3.30 p.m. until 28 May, 2003.

Seán Fleming T.D.,

Chairman.

25 June, 2003.

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Wednesday, 28 May, 2003.

The Joint Committee met in public session at 3 p.m. in Committee Room 1, LH 2000, a quorum being present.

1.Attendance:

The following members attended:

Deputies: Joan Burton, Michael Finneran, Seán Fleming (Chair), Conor Lenihan, Paul McGrath, M.J. Nolan, Ned O’Keeffe and Liam Twomey.

Senators: Jim Higgins and Mary White.

Deputy Michael Finneran took the Chair at 3.50 p.m.

2.Minutes:

It was agreed to have the minutes of the meeting of 14 May at its next meeting.

1.Referral of Motion re the Draft Civil Service Code of Standards and Behaviour - (Department of Finance).

It was agreed at the outset of the meeting that because the main Opposition Spokespersons were attending the Dáil for questions with the Minister for Finance, that finalisation of the Committee’s deliberations on this matter would not be concluded until its next meeting, to allow those members absent an opportunity to offer their views on the Code.

A presentation was given by Department of Finance officials on the above Draft Code, represented by Mr. Pat Casey, Mr. Ken Spratt and Mr. Colm Sweeney. Mr. Casey delivered the presentation, which was followed by a question and answer session with the members. The discussion that ensued was very comprehensive and some points were raised on which the Department promised to get back to the Committee. As stated above, no conclusions were reached on the Code as the Committee had taken the decision earlier to revisit the issue at its next meeting.

3.Correspondence:

There was no correspondence for the attention of the Committee at this meeting

4.Draft Work Programme:

As two of the main Opposition spokespersons were not at this meeting, this matter was deferred until the next meeting.

5.Pre-scrutiny of EU Legislative Proposals:

Again, as two of the main Opposition spokespersons were not at this meeting, this matter was deferred until the next meeting.

6.Adjournment:

As there was no other business, the meeting was adjourned at 4.50 p.m. until 12 June.

Seán Fleming T.D.,

Chairman.

25 June, 2003.

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Wednesday, 11 June, 2003.

The Joint Committee met in public session at 3 p.m. in Committee Room 4, LH 2000, a quorum being present.

1.Attendance:

The following members attended:

Deputies: Richard Bruton, Joan Burton, Michael Finneran, Seán Fleming (Chair), Conor Lenihan, Paul McGrath, John McGuinness, M.J. Nolan, Caoimhghin O Caoláin, Ned O’Keeffe and Liam Twomey.

Senators: Jim Higgins, Martin Mansergh, Joe O’Toole and Mary White.

2.Minutes:

The minutes of the meetings of 14 and 28 May were not agreed due to a typographical error.

1.Discussion regarding the Draft Civil Service Code of Standards and Behaviour - (Department of Finance).

Finalisation of the Committee’s deliberations on this matter was concluded at this meeting, having been deferred from the last meeting to allow those members then absent an opportunity to offer their views on the Code.

A comprehensive discussion took place on the Code, with various opinions being offered. After the discussion, the Committee decided that a draft report of the Committee be drawn up for its next meeting, to be agreed and laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas, by 3 July.

3.Correspondence:

A letter from Deputy O Caolainn to the Chair regarding the fact that two leading banks had not passed on the recent reduction in the ECB interest rate to customers was discussed. The Committee decided that the issue be put on its Work Programme and that the individual banks be invited to come before the Committee to answer questions on a number of issues of concern to the Committee, but particularly not passing on interest rate reductions, the closure of local bank branches and lack of competition in the sector.

The Chairman also introduced correspondence sent to him for the Committee’s attention from Cork County Council regarding its recent withdrawal from the tendering process due to insufficient competition in the banking sector and because the only submission standing after the tendering process concluded did not meet the requirements of the Council regarding the scale of bank charges. The Committee agreed to have this issue considered also at any future meeting with the Banks.

4.Draft Work Programme:

The draft Work Programme was then discussed. Deputy Burton indicated that she was anxious to have the Redress issue for victims of abuse in State residential institutions addressed. In this regard, she undertook to write to the Chair with details of how she would like the issue to be covered by the Committee. It was also agreed to invite the Commission on Standards in Public Office to appear before the Committee at its next meeting. Deputy Finneran raised the issue of SMI and asked for a note to be drawn up for its next meeting on how to proceed with this item of the Work Programme.

5.Pre-scrutiny of EU Legislative Proposals:

On 8 May, the Sub-committee on EU Scrutiny referred to the Committee for information only, and not for scrutiny, EU Com (2003) 138, a Directive of the European Parliament and of the Council on the harmonization of transparency requirements with regard to information about issuers whose securities are admitted to trading on a regulated market and amending Directive 2001/34/EC. An information note from the Department of Finance on this proposal was sent to members. The Committee agreed to note this proposal and that further scrutiny was not required.

On 22 May, the Sub-committee referred for further scrutiny, EU Com (2003) 119, an amended proposal for a Directive on the re-use and commercial exploitation of Public Sector documents and further recommended that the Committee request the Department of Finance to keep the Committee apprised of developments on this proposal as they arise. The Committee was informed that the Department of Finance had undertaken to keep the Committee informed of developments — as of now, the Department has said it had nothing new to add to the previous briefing given to the Committee in February on an earlier formulation of this proposal.

6.Any other business:

It was agreed to take the National Economic and Social Development Office Bill, 2002 at Committee Stage on 2 July, 2003.

7.Adjournment:

As there was no other business, the meeting was adjourned at 4.55 p.m. until 25 June.

Seán Fleming T.D.,

Chairman.

25 June, 2003.

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Wednesday, 25 June, 2003.

The Joint Committee met in public session at 3 p.m. in Committee Room 4, LH 2000, a quorum being present.

1.Attendance:

The following members attended:

Deputies: Richard Bruton, Joan Burton, Seán Fleming (Chair), Paul McGrath, John McGuinness, M.J. Nolan and Caoimhghin O Caoláin.

Senators: Martin Mansergh, Joe O’Toole and Mary White.

2.Minutes:

The revised minutes of the meetings of 14 and 28 May were agreed and minutes of 11 June also agreed.

1.Matters Arising:

The Committee agreed to the following:

•to hold the slot available for the following Wednesday as a Joint slot, as Committee Stage of the NESDO Bill was not now going ahead until after the recess.

•that it’s meeting with the National Pensions Reserve Fund Commission be put back until the Commission had a full set of accounts published for 2002. It was proposed that the Clerk write to the Commission, to this effect, and that they be asked to have a meeting possibly in September of this year.

•That the proposed meeting with the Standards in Public Office Commission be deferred until later on in the year, also.

2.Work Programme:

Discussion on the Work Programme was then brought forward. The Committee decided to have the Department of Finance in to its next meeting to discuss the Residential Institutions Redress issue and if possible, to have papers on the matter sent to them in advance of that meeting. They also agreed to have the Consumer Director in IFSRA and three commercial banks: Bank of Ireland; Bank of Scotland and AIB, and a Building Society, in to a meeting on 9 July to discuss issues around particularly, but not exclusively, bank policy in relation to customer charges and interest rates. Competition in the sector was also to be raised, generally and in the context of a letter received from Cork County Council on its recent experience in tendering for banking services. A decision was also taken to put forward until the next meeting any decision on the setting up of an SMI sub-committee, in the absence of Deputy Finneran who had raised it at the last meeting.

3.Consideration of the Committee’s draft Report on the Draft Civil Service Code of Standards and Behaviour - (Department of Finance).

A draft Report of the Committee on the above was discussed and agreed subject to an amendment suggested by Deputy Bruton that a further recommendation be inserted to the effect that the draft Code include redress procedures for customers of services of the Civil Service. Subject to this amendment, the draft report was agreed and was to be laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas and a copy sent to the Department of Finance.

3.Correspondence:

A letter from [name of correspondent deleted] was discussed in which he alleged unfair treatment by the Revenue Commissioners, after the Ombudsman’s Office had intervened in his case. It was agreed by the Committee that the letter be forwarded to both the Revenue Commissioners and the Ombudsman for attention.

4.Pre-scrutiny of EU Legislative Proposals:

Decisions by the sub-committee on EU Scrutiny, sent to this Committee by letter on 29 May, were discussed. The Committee agreed with the recommendations of the sub-committee that none of the proposals contained therein required further scrutiny by this Committee.

It also agreed that an EU proposal still outstanding regarding administrative co-operation in the field of indirect taxation on supplies of travel services was to be scrutinized. However, in advance of bringing in officials from the Department of Finance, it was decided to get a comprehensive paper from them on the issue.

5.Any other business/Adjournment:

As there was no other business, the meeting was adjourned at 3.58 p.m. until 2 July.

Seán Fleming T.D.,

Chairman.

9 July, 2003.

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Wednesday, 2 July, 2003.

The Joint Committee met in public session at 2 p.m. in Committee Room 1, LH 2000, a quorum being present.

1.Attendance:

The following members attended:

Deputies: Richard Bruton, Joan Burton, Seán Fleming (Chair), Paul McGrath, John McGuinness, M.J. Nolan, Caoimhghin O Caoláin and Ned O’Keeffe.

Senators: Martin Mansergh and Mary White.

2.Minutes:

It was agreed that the minutes of the meeting of 25 June would be on the next meeting’s agenda.

The Committee agreed to bring forward its business on internal matters before the presentation by Department of Finance officials on the Residential Institutions Redress issue.

3.Correspondence:

There was no correspondence of the relevance to today’s meeting.

4.Setting up of a sub-committee on SMI:

The Committee decided to devote 15 minutes at the end of next week’s meeting to the finalisation of this issue. Deputy Burton suggested that in the interim a number of members have informal discussions to decide what issues are of most relevance in this area. It was also decided that the sub-committee be time and results focused and that it be given a definite number of months by which to report back to the main Committee. There was a question over whether or not the main Committee could decide on the Chair — the advice given was that it was usual practice for the sub-committee to elect its own Chair but that this would be clarified before the next meeting. It was also agreed that draft terms of reference would be drawn up by the Clerk, in the interim.

5.Draft Travel Reports:

Two draft travel reports regarding a trip to Helsinki in February and a trip to Brussels in April, were circulated. The Committee agreed to lay both before the Houses.

6.List of Topics for Rapporteurs:

The Chair indicated to the meeting the amount of funding available to the Committee in the event that any members were interested in being rapporteurs, on topics within the Committee’s remit — it was decided that if any member was interested that they write to the Chair with details on the nature of the duties; the likely timescale and the allowance sought and that it would be put before the Committee for approval.

7.The timetable for the meeting of 9 July:

This was amended and agreed by the Committee. The Committee also agreed to continue the theme of next week’s meeting, with the mutual building societies and credit unions, on 4 September. The Chairman also got agreement that the Debt and Development Coalition be brought in, in early September to discuss third world debt in advance of the Minister for Finance’s attendance at the IMF conference in late September.

8.Scrutiny of EU legislative proposals:

Decisions by the sub-committee on EU Scrutiny, sent to this Committee by letter on 26 June, were discussed. The Committee agreed with the recommendations of the sub-committee that none of the proposals contained therein required further scrutiny by this Committee.

9.Discussion with the Department of Finance on the Residential Institutions Redress issue:

The Department of Finance was represented by Ms. Ann Nolan, Principal in the Public Expenditure Division with responsibility for the Department of Education and Science’s Vote and Mr. John Conlon, Assistant Principal. Ms. Nolan delivered the presentation. She outlined at the beginning that the Department of Finance’s role, in the agreement with the religious institutions, was consistent with its general role of advising the Minister and Government — by way of observations on Memoranda for Government — on the financial aspects of policy proposals from line Departments. After a very comprehensive briefing, there was a detailed question and answer session between members and Ms. Nolan.

On conclusion, the temporary Chair, (Deputy M. J. .Nolan), thanked Ms. Nolan and Mr. Conlan for their assistance.

10.Any other business/Adjournment:

As there was no other business, the meeting was adjourned at 4.50 p.m. until 9 July, 2003.

Seán Fleming T.D.,

Chairman.

9 July, 2003.

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Wednesday, 9 July, 2003.

The Joint Committee met in public session at 2 p.m. in Committee Room 4, LH 2000, a quorum being present.

1.Attendance:

The following members attended:

Deputies: Richard Bruton, Joan Burton, Michael Finneran, Seán Fleming (Chair), Conor Lenihan, Paul McGrath, John McGuinness, M.J. Nolan, Caoimhghin O Caoláin and Ned O’Keeffe.

2.Minutes:

The minutes of the meetings of 25 June and 2 July were agreed.

The Committee agreed to bring forward its business on internal matters before the presentation by the Banks in relation consumer interest charges and the passing on of interest rate cuts.

3.Correspondence:

•A letter was sent to the Chairman from Dr. Liam O’Reilly of IFSRA, stating he would be happy to meet him at any time to discuss the role of the of the new Body in more detail. The Committee agreed that the Chairman meet Dr. O’Reilly, informally, on behalf of the Committee.

•An early notification of a meeting in Brussels in October was received, requesting the Chairs of all Budget Committees of National Parliaments to attend. At this meeting, the main guidelines of the European Parliament’s approach to the 2004 budget will be outlined. The Committee agreed that the Chairman or another member attend that meeting on their behalf and that in the interim, costings etc. would be prepared by the Clerk for approval at the next meeting.

•A letter which was received by the PAC from [name of correspondent deleted] thanking the PAC for forwarding his letter of 16 June to this Committee, was noted.

•A letter which was received on the day of the meeting from a Ms. Loreto Byrne regarding the residential institutions redress issue was circulated to members. The Chair suggested that the Committee note this documentation and pass it on to the Committee on Education and Science, for their attention. This was agreed, with the proviso that, as the author had serious concerns that needed to be addressed, that it not be lost in the Committee system over the summer recess.

4.Setting up of a sub-committee on SMI:

The Committee agreed that Deputy Michael Finneran do some research over the recess period as to what should be covered by any work programme regarding SMI and that he report back to the Chair — the Committee would then decide whether to set-up a sub-committee or to have a meeting of the main Committee on an SMI-related topic every second month — this is to be agreed at the Committee’s next meeting on September 4^th.

5.The timetable for the meeting of 4^th September:

The Committee also agreed to continue the theme of next week’s meeting, with the mutual building societies and credit unions, on 4 September. The Chairman also got agreement that the Debt and Development Coalition be brought in, to discuss third world debt in advance of the Minister for Finance’s attendance at the IMF conference in late September. It was decided that the Department of Finance and the representative body for NGO’s, Dochas, be invited to give presentations at this meeting also.

6.Scrutiny of EU legislative proposals:

Nothing had been referred to the committee since its last meeting. However, there was an EU proposal outstanding, com (2003) 27, regarding VAT treatment of travel agents/tour operators, which the Committee decided to scrutinize at an earlier date. In order to avert, if possible, the necessity to bring in Department of Finance officials, a briefing note was circulated from the Department of Finance at today’s meeting, which the Committee decided to consider at the next meeting on 4 September.

7.Discussion with the Consumer Director in IFSRA and the Commercial Banks regarding policy in relation to customer charges and interest rates:

The first presentation was made by Mary O’Dea of IFSRA — she was accompanied by Mr. Cathal O’Gorman, Mr. Martin Moloney, Mr. John Pyne and Mr. Neil Whoriskey. She gave an outlined to the Committee of her role in protecting consumers especially in relation to matters of bank charges and interest rate pass through. She began with a brief description of her roles as both regulator and as consumer-director and emphasized that the overall function of the financial regulator was to assist consumers in making informed decisions in a market which is both safe and fair.

The next presentation was by Allied Irish Banks represented by Mr. John Hickey, General Manager, Retail Banking; Mr. David Kelly, General Manager, Finance & Operations and Ms. Catherine Moroney, Head of Personal & Business Srategy. Mr. Hickey made the presentation, in which he basically outlined their fees and business policy, stating that their business strategy was based on a commitment to increase the amount of business they do with their customers by anticipating and identifying their needs.

The third presentation was by Bank of Scotland, who were represented by Mr. Mark Duffy, Chief Executive; Ms. Clare Connellan, Associate Director of Legal Services; Ms. Rosaleen Kelly, Marketing Director and Mr. Jim Rourke, Associate Director of Corporate Development. Mr. Duffy made the presentation in which he stated that the Bank of Scotland group believed that there was a definite linkage between competition and developing a truly competitive banking market in Ireland, generating more competitors and lower pricing for consumers. He also referred to what they currently saw wrong in the Irish marketplace from a banker’s perspective.

The fourth presenters were PermanentTSB . This delegation were made up of Mr. Niall O’Grady, marketing manager, Mr. Diarmuid Bradley, deputy chief executive, and Mr. David McCarthy, the group financial controller. In his presentation Mr. O’Grady stated that the Permanent TSB was the newest bank in Ireland, formed only 15 months ago as a result of the acquisition of TSB Bank by Irish Life and Permanent and the subsequent merger with Irish Permanent. He went on to say their core focus was on personal customers with strengths in mortgages and savings products and that the Bank had an exclusive focus on the market in the Republic of Ireland.

The last presentation was made by the Bank of Ireland, represented by Mr. Des Crowley, chief executive, retail financial services, Republic of Ireland; Mr. David Holden, head of group communications; and Mr. Finbar Murphy, group legal advisor. Mr. Crowley made the presentation on behalf of the Bank and started off by stating that there had been no increases in the prices of any core current account services for either personal or business customers since 1993. He then went on to say that the Bank had a total payroll cost in Ireland of €684 million and paid out €160 million in dividends and €181 million in corporation taxes and duties. He also stressed that they were striving to be as efficient as possible, to give the best service possible and the best possible value to customers.

After each presentation, there was a thorough question and answer session between members and the individual banks, after which the Chairman thanked the members of each delegation for their contribution.

8.Any other business/Adjournment:

As there was no other business, the meeting was adjourned at 8.35 p.m. until 11.00 a.m. on Thursday, 4 September, 2003.

Seán Fleming T.D.,

Chairman.

4 September, 2003.

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Thursday, 4 September, 2003.

The Joint Committee met in public session at 11.14 a.m. in Committee Room 4, LH 2000, a quorum being present.

1.Attendance:

The following members attended:

Deputies: Richard Bruton, Joan Burton, Michael Finneran, Seán Fleming (Chair), Conor Lenihan, John McGuinness, M.J. Nolan, Caoimhghin O Caoláin and Ned O’Keeffe.

Senators: Paul Coughlan (in substitution for Senator Jim Higgins in part), Jim Higgins, Martin Mansergh, Joe O’Toole and Mary White.

Apologies were extended by Deputies Paul McGrath and Liam Twomey.

2.Minutes:

The minutes of the meetings of 9 July were agreed.

3.Correspondence:

•Letters received from the Ombudsman and the Chairman of the Revenue Commissioners arising from correspondence received from [name of correspondent deleted] were noted. It was agreed to write to [name of correspondent deleted] enclosing copies of the correspondence and indicate that the matter was now closed.

•Letter from Mr David Holden, Head of Group Communications Bank of Ireland clarifying comments made at the meeting of 9 July was noted.

•A letter received from Mr Stewart MacKinnon Chief Executive, (Irish Payments Services Organisations Ltd on adverse media coverage seeking to meet with the Joint Committee. The request was agreed to.

•Department of Finance — Consultation document on the introduction of a carbon energy tax. The members agreed to discuss the document at its meeting of 18 September 2003. The Committee decided to meet on Thursday 18^th September because of the absence of Fine Gael and Labour members attending parliamentary party meetings.

•Conference of Public Works Committees of the EU Rome 13-14 November 2003. The members agreed to attend the above conference. The Clerk was asked to prepare an estimate of costs etc on participation at the conference.

•E.I.B.- Vision of Environmental Sustainability 23/24 October, 2003. The members agreed that any member who wished to attend the above could do so. Deputy Ned O’Keeffe indicated that he wished to attend.

•A Letter received from Ms Mary O’Dea IFSRA responding to questions raised by Deputy Lenihan at the meeting of 9 July 2003 was noted

•A letter received from Mr Jim Connolly on his treatment and that of his company by a particular bank was noted

•An e-mail from Mr Denis Dunne

The members noted an e-mail received from Mr Denis Dunne on the lack of clarity in charging practices in banks.

4.Work Programme on SMI:

This matter was deferred until the next meeting. However Deputy Finneran undertook to discuss the matter with the Chairman in advance of the next meeting

5.The timetable for todays meeting

The timetable for todays meeting which had been circulated was agreed to.

6.Travel Proposal

It was agree that the Chairman would represent the Committee at the meeting in Brussels on 7^th October 2003 on the European Parliament’s main guidelines to the 2004 budget. It was agreed that the Chairman travel in business class.

7.Scrutiny of EU Proposals

The meeting agreed to invite officials from the Department of Finance to its next meeting to discuss the following proposals COM (2003) 78 VAT treatment of travel agents/tour operators and COM (2003) 335 Proposal for a Council Directive amending Directive 77/388/EEC concerning the common system of value added tax, as regards conferment of implementing powers and the procedure for adopting derogations.

The members agreed that it would scrutinise COM (2003) 400 Parliamentary Draft Budget of the European Communities for the year 2004 even though the document had not been forwarded for scrutiny by the Sub-Committee on EU Scrutiny.

8.Discussion with (i) Education Building Society

The meeting heard from Mr Pat Farrell (Head of Marketing) and Mr Martin Walsh (Head of Mutuality) Educational Building Society. Mr Farrell outlined the operations of the EBS to the members and both Mr Farrell and Mr Walsh responded to questions from members.

The meeting was suspended at 12.33 p.m. and resumed 12.35p.m.

The members heard from Mr Michael Saunders, Mr Marius Cassidy, Ms Clare Lawton and Mr Gerald Power representing St Canices Credit Union Kilkenny.

The representatives responded to questions raised by members

The meeting was suspended at 1.09 p.m. and resumed at 1.10 p.m.

The members heard from Mr Liam Edwards and Mr Michael Culloty representing the Money Advice Service and from Mr Leonard Burke Department of Social Community and Family Affairs. Mr Edwards, Mr Culloty and Mr Burke responded to questions raised by members.

The meeting was suspended at 1.55 p.m.

The meeting resumed at 3.01 p.m.

9.Overseas Development Aid and Third World Debt

(i)Presentation by Officials from the Department of Finance

Mr Robert Bradshaw and Mr Robert Carey, addressed the Committee on that Department’s responsibilities in relation to Overseas Development Aid and particularly Ireland’s role in the I.M.F. and World Bank. There followed a question and answer session with the members during which the need for debt cancellation and the necessity for Ireland to maximize its influence at world level were emphasized.

(ii)Presentation by Debt and Development Coalition

Mr David Joyce and Ms Jean Somers from the Debt and Development Coalition made a presentation to the Committee during which they re-iterated their call to the IMF and World Bank to acknowledge the need for total debt cancellation. A question and answer session followed the presentation.

(iii)Presentation by Dóchas

Mr Hans Zomer, Director, led a delegation from Dóchas who acknowledged that progress had been made by Ireland in our contributions to overseas development aid but they also stressed the need for contributions to increase further.Once more the presentation was followed by a question and answer session with the members.

The Chairman thanked the delegations for their presentations and for dealing comprehensively with the queries raised by members.

The Joint Committee agreed that the following letter would be sent to the Minister for Finance.

Mr. Charlie McCreevy, T.D.,

Minister for Finance,

Upper Merrion Street,

Dublin 2.

10 September, 2003.

Dear Minister,

I refer to the meeting of the above Committee on 4^th September, 2003 which considered the role of the Department of Finance in Ireland’s provision of overseas development aid and its actions regarding Third World debt, particularly in view of your address to the I.M.F. and World Bank annual general meeting in Dubai on 23^rd and 24^th September, 2003.

The Joint Committee has requested the following:-

(i)that you call on the I.M.F. and World bank to acknowledge the need for total debt cancellation for low income countries; and that you urge both institutions to examine their own resources to fund debt cancellation;

(ii)that you meet afterwards with the Joint Committee to report on the meeting in Dubai; and

(iii)that the Government reconfirm its commitment to increase overseas development aid to 0.7% of GNP by 2007.

Yours sincerely,

_________________

Seán Fleming

Chairman.

10.Adjournment

The Joint Committee adjourned at 5.02 p.m. until Thursday 18^th September, 2003.

____________________________

Sean Fleming, T.D.

Chairman

18 September, 2003

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Thursday, 18 September, 2003.

The Joint Committee met in public session at 11.10 a.m. in Committee Room 1, LH 2000, a quorum being present.

1.Attendance

The following members attended:

Apologies were received from Deputies Paul McGrath and Michael Finneran.

2.Minutes

The minutes of the meeting of 4 September 2003 were agreed and signed by the Chairman.

There were no matters arising.

3.Correspondence

•Correspondence received from Mr John Evans Economist, Competition Authority, regarding Study of Competition in the Provision of Non-investment Banking Services in Ireland.

It was agreed that a reply would be sent to the Competition Authority stating that the Committee will publish a report on the subject based on the public meetings held. In this context, it was agreed that a sub-group from the committee would be formed to work on the report and a rapporteur appointed. This will be discussed in more detail at the next meeting.

•Text of Telephone conservation to the Secretariat regarding a delegation from European Parliamentary Committee on Economic and Monetary Affairs visiting Dublin 25-26 November 2003 who would like to meet with the Committee.

It was agreed to meet the delegation on Wednesday 26 November at 10 a.m.

•An Invitation from Dr. Michael Boland Chairman, Board of the Office of Tobacco Control inviting members to the Autumn Seminar on Thursday, 2 October 2003 Westbury Hotel Grafton Street. Dublin 2.

It was agreed that any member interested in attending should contact the secretariat.

•EU Scrutiny COM (2003) 371 Proposal for a declaration system for movements of sums of money across the external borders of the EU has been referred to this Committee and COM (2003) 366 Proposal for a Council Regulation amending Regulations (EC, Euratom) No 1150/2000 implementing Decision 2000/597/EC, Euratom on the system of the Communities’ own resources.

This item will be circulated with the agenda for the next Joint Committee meeting.

•Letter received addressed to the Chairman from Mr. Mark Duffy, Bank of Scotland, Ireland.

The letter was noted.

4.Work Programme on SMI

This matter was deferred until the next meeting in the absence of Deputy Finneran.

5.The timetable for today’s meeting

The timetable for today’s meeting was agreed to.

6.Travel Proposal

It was agreed at the last meeting that the Committee would be represented at the Conference of Public Works Committees of the EU in Rome on the 13^th & 14^th November 2003. There is approximately €12,000 remaining in the committees travel allocation. An estimate was circulated. It was agreed to send 5 members. The conveners are to provide the names to the secretariat. It was agreed that business class fares be used on this occasion as it offers flexibility. Deputy Burton asked the secretariat to ascertain when the Estimates will be published, as this may affect members attending the conference.

7.Presentation by Irish Payment Services Organisation

The Chairman welcomed Mr. Stewart MacKinnon Chief Executive and Mr. Gerry O’Mahony Company Secretary, Irish Payment Services Organisation to the meeting. Mr. MacKinnon gave a detailed presentation on the operations of IPSO, including refuting matters raised by the Royal Bank of Scotland at the meeting on 9^th July 2003.

A question and answer session ensued.

The Chairman thanked Mr. MacKinnon and Mr. O’Mahony for attending.

The meeting was suspended at 1.09 p.m. and resumed at 2.19 p.m.

8.EU Scrutiny

The Chairman welcomed Mr. Frederick Cooper, Principal Officer, and Mr. Pat Leahy, Assistant Principal, from the Department of Finance, and Ms Clare Robson, Principal Officer and Mr. John Wolohan, Assistant Principal, from the Office of the Revenue Commissioners.

Mr Cooper made a presentation on the proposal COM 2003/78 VAT, concerning the treatment of travel agents and tour operators.

A question and answer session ensued.

The meeting was suspended at 3.05 p.m. and resumed at 3.10 p.m.

9.Proposal for a Carbon Energy Tax

The Chairman welcomed Mr. Frederick Cooper from the Department of Finance, Mr. Donal Enright from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and Mr. Conor Barry, an environmental economist.

Mr. Enright made a presentation on the proposal which was followed by a question and answer session.

The Committee agreed that a debate in plenary session of the Dail should be sought on the issue.

The Chairman proposed sending a copy of the transcript of this meeting to the relevant section in the Department of Finance. This was agreed. It was also agreed that Officials of the Department of Finance should come before the Commitrtee towards the end of the year when all the submissions have been received.

The Committee agreed that a debate in plenary session of the Dail should be sought on the issue.

10.Adjournment

There being no further business the Joint Committee adjourned at 4.27 p.m. until Wednesday 1^st October, 2003.

____________________________

Sean Fleming, T.D.

Chairman

1 October, 2003

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Wednesday, 1 October, 2003.

The Joint Committee met in public session at 3.09 p.m., a quorum being present.

1.Attendance

The following members attended:

Deputies:Richard Bruton, Joan Burton, Michael Finneran, Seán Fleming (in the Chair), Conor Lenihan, Paul McGrath, John McGuinness, Caoimhghin O Caoláin, Ned O’Keeffe and Liam Twomey.

Apologies were received from Senators Jim Higgins and Mary White.

2.Minutes

It was agreed that, in the interests of consistency in recording, the minutes of the meeting of 18 September 2003 should be amended by the deletion of the Members’ names under the heading of Presentation by Irish Payment Services Organisation.

There were no other matters arising.

3.Correspondence

Receipt of the following items of correspondence was noted.

1List of decisions made by the Sub-Committee on EU Scrutiny at their meeting of 9 September.

○Noted.

2Letter from the Combat Poverty Agency seeking a pre-budget meeting with the Committee.

○It was agreed that the Committee would accept no pre-budget submissions, and that a letter would issue to the Combat Poverty Agency advising them that the appropriate course of action would be to address their submission to the Minister for Finance. It was further agreed that the Combat Poverty Agency would be invited to make a presentation to the Committee, but not in the context of the budget.

3Copy of the draft agenda for the meeting of the Ecofin Council on 7 October

○Noted.

4Letter from the Office of Tobacco Control including an invitation to a seminar on “The Economics of Tobacco Control — Costs and Productivity Impact of Tobacco Use” to take place on Thursday 2 October.

○Noted.

5Brochure regarding a half day conference on Public Private Partnership to take place on Thursday 2 October.

○Noted. It was agreed that Deputy Burton could attend the conference on behalf of the Committee at a cost of €296.45 (registration fee).

The meeting was suspended at 3.23 p.m. and resumed at 3.24 p.m.

4.Scrutiny of EU Document COM (2003) 371

The Committee proceeded to their scrutiny of the EU document COM (2003) 371, a proposal for a declaration system for the movement of cash across the external borders of the EU.

Two officials of the Customs Division of the Revenue Commissioners, Mr. Phonsey Croke, (Principal Officer) and Mr. Joe Ryan, (Assistant Principal), attended the meeting and briefed the Committee on the implications of the proposal.

There followed a question and answer session.

The meeting was suspended at 4.07 p.m. and resumed at 4.10 p.m.

5.Discussion on Decentralisation.

The Committee heard a presentation on the issue of Decentralisation made by officials of the Department of Finance. The officials were Mr. Dermot Quigley, (Principal Officer), Mr. Paddy Howard, (Principal Officer), and Mr. Eric Hartmann, (Assistant Principal).

There followed a question and answer session.

6.Adjournment

There being no further business, the Committee adjourned at 5.31 p.m. until Wednesday 15 October 2003.

________________________

Sean Fleming T.D.

Chairman

15 October, 2003

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Wednesday, 15 October, 2003.

The Joint Committee met in public session at 3.15 p.m., a quorum being present.

1.Attendance

The following members attended:

Apologies were received from Deputy Caoimhghin Ó Caoláin.

2.Minutes

The Minutes of meetings held on 18 September 2003 and 1 October, 2003 were approved and signed. There were no matters arising.

3.Correspondence

The Committee noted receipt of the following items of correspondence-

•A submission by Bank of Scotland (Ireland) to the Competition Authority.

•An addendum to the Presentation, made to the Joint Committee on 4 September 2003, by St Canice’s Credit Union.

•A letter from Deputy Joan Burton to the Chairman regarding tax relief under Section 481.

•A letter from the Government Chief Whip to the Chairman regarding request for a debate on the proposed carbon tax

•A memo for the Clerk to the Public Accounts Committee advising that those issues raised in the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General are on the agenda for consideration at PAC.

•Notification that it is proposed to prescribe additional bodies included in the Schedule to the Freedom of Information Act — the measure will be referred to the Committee, probably for return to the Dáil within two weeks.

•Notification that the Dáil Select Committee will have to consider a supplementary estimate for the Office of Public Works.

Arising from Deputy Burton’s letter regarding tax relief under section 481, the Committee noted that the broader question of tax reliefs in general warrants serious examination by the Committee. The Committee noted also that the matter is before the Public Accounts Committee. The Committee agreed to meet on Wednesday 5 November at 9.30 a.m. to discuss section 481 tax relief, in respect of the film industry. The Committee directed the Clerk prepare a draft schedule of presentations for that meeting.

The Committee agreed that the meeting on 29 October 2003 will deal with the prescription of additional bodies under the Freedom of Information Act,

The Committee met in private session at 3.30 p.m. to hear procedural advice from the Clerk.

The Committee met in public session at 3.33 p.m.

4.Drafting of a report on the Policy of the Commercial Banks regarding Customer Charges and Interest Rates

The Committee discussed the drafting of a report on the Policy of the Commercial Banks regarding customer charges and interest rates.

The Committee discussed this matter in private session from 3.30 p.m. to 3.33 p.m.

The Committee agreed to direct the Clerk to draft the report.

5.Other business

The Committee agreed that in future, groups making presentations should be required to submit their presentations and briefing notes at least three days in advance, and should summarise their presentation in no more than seven minutes, in order to provide more time for questions.

The meeting was suspended at 3.55 p.m. and resumed in public session at 3.58 p.m.

6.Presentation by Public Private Partnership Unit of Department of Finance

Mr. Eamon Kearns, Director, Mr. Pat O’Neill, Programme Manager of the PPP Unit and Mr. Michael Manley, Principal Officer of the Public Expenditure Division, Department of Finance, attended the meeting. Mr. Kearns made a presentation regarding public private partnerships.

There followed a question and answer session.

7.Adjournment

There being no further business, the Committee adjourned at 6.05 p.m. until Wednesday 29 October 2003.

________________________

Sean Fleming T.D.

Chairman

30 October, 2003

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Thursday, 30^th October, 2003.

The Joint Committee met in public session at 3.14 p.m., a quorum being present

1.Attendance

The following members attended:

Apologies were received from Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin.

2.Minutes

The minutes of the meeting of 15^th October, 2003 were agreed subject to the inclusion of apologies for inability to attend from Senator White, the deletion of “proscribe” and the substitution of “prescribe” therefore, and the deletion of “proscription” and the substitution of “prescription” therefor.

There were no matters arising.

3.Correspondence

EU Scrutiny

The Committee had before it EU proposal COM(2003)446 which concerned mutual assistance in the field of direct and indirect taxation and which had been referred to the Committee by the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny. The Committee agreed to scrutinise the proposal.

The Committee had before it EU proposal COM(2003)397 which concerned rates of value-added tax and which had been referred to the Committee by the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny. The Committee agreed to scrutinise the proposal.

The Committee noted the other decisions made by the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny on 2^nd October, 2003.

The Committee noted the decisions made by the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny on 16^th October.

4.Freedom of Information Act 1997 (Prescribed Bodies) Regulations 2003

The Committee had before it proposals that the Freedom of Information Act 1997 (Prescribed Bodies) Regulations 2003 be approved by the Dáil and Seanad, which proposals had been referred to the Committee by both Houses.

The Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Tom Parlon, made a presentation to the Committee on the Regulations. Discussion ensued.

The Committee completed its consideration of the proposals and noted that, in accordance with the orders of referral, a message to that effect would be sent by the Clerk to the Clerks of both Houses.

5.Consideration of proposed structure for report on the commercial banking sector

The Committee agreed that the structure for its report on the policy of the commercial banks regarding customer charges and interest rates should be the standard format used in its previous comparable reports.

6.Report of the delegation to a meeting of the European Parliament’s Budget Committee in Brussels

The Committee noted the report of the delegation to a meeting of the European Parliament’s Budget Committee in Brussels on 7^th October, 2003.

7.Any other business

Strategic Management Initiative

The Committee agreed to devote one meeting every two months to the consideration of matters arising from its functions in relation to the Strategic Management Initiative. It was agreed that a draft schedule of meetings be drawn up for agreement by the Committee.

Section 481 tax relief for the film industry

The Committee agreed formally to request the Indecon and PriceWaterhouseCoopers reports on tax relief for the film industry from the Departments of Finance and Arts, Sport and Tourism.

It was also agreed that a timetable for the agreement of the Committee be prepared in advance of its next meeting on section 481 tax relief.

8.Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 4.45 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 5^th November.

________________________

Sean Fleming T.D.,

Chairman.

12^th November, 2003

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Wednesday, 5^th November, 2003.

The Joint Committee met in public session at 9.44 a.m., a quorum being present.

1.Attendance

The following members attended:

2.Minutes

It was agreed to defer consideration of minutes until the next meeting.

3.Correspondence

It was agreed to defer consideration of correspondence until the next meeting.

4.Presentations concerning the future of section 481 tax relief in respect of the film industry

The Committee agreed a timetable for presentations concerning the future of section 481 tax relief in respect of the film industry.

The Committee heard a presentation on behalf of Screen Producers Ireland which was represented by Mr. Andrew Lowe, Joint Chairman, Mr. James Flynn, Joint Chairman, and Ms. Máire Ní Thuathail. Discussion ensued.

The meeting was suspended by agreement from 11.04 to 11.09 a.m.

The Committee heard a presentation on behalf of Ardmore Studios which was represented by Mr. Kevin Moriarty, Managing Director. Discussion ensued.

The meeting was suspended by agreement from 12.10 to 12.35 p.m.

The Committee heard a presentation on behalf of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and constituent members involved in the film industry which were represented by Ms. Joan Carmichael, Ms. Jane Boushell, Mr. Jimmy Jordan, Ms. Nuala McKernan, Mr. Vincent McCabe, Mr. Pádraig Murray, Mr. John Arkins, Mr. David Heap and Mr. Jimmy Coughlan. Discussion ensued.

The meeting was suspended by agreement from 1.45 to 3 p.m.

The Committee heard a presentation on behalf of an Bord Scannán na hÉireann/the Irish Film Board which was represented by Mr. Mark Woods, Chief Executive, and Ms. Teresa McGrane, Head of Business Affairs. Discussion ensued.

The meeting was suspended by agreement from 4.05 to 4.36 p.m.

The Committee heard a presentation on behalf of the Department of Finance which was represented by Mr. Liam Murphy and Mr. John Hogan. The Revenue Commissioners were represented by Ms. Muriel Hinch and Ms. Marie Hurley. The Committee also heard a presentation on behalf of the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism which was represented by Mr. Barry Murphy. Discussion ensued.

The Committee agreed that a working group of members would work on a draft report for consideration by the Committee at its next meeting.

5.Any other business

There was no other business.

6.Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 6.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 12^th November.

________________________

Sean Fleming T.D.,

Chairman.

12^th November, 2003

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Wednesday, 12^th November, 2003.

The Joint Committee met at 3.14 p.m., a quorum being present.

1.Attendance

The following members attended:

Apologies were received from Deputies Joan Burton, Michael Finneran, Conor Lenihan, Paul McGrath, M.J. Nolan and Liam Twomey.

2.Minutes

Minutes of the meetings of 30^th October and 5^th November were agreed.

3.Correspondence

The Committee had before it a letter from Mr. Mark Duffy, Chief Executive, Bank of Scotland, concerning an invitation to visit the Bank’s headquarters in Edinburgh. The Committee noted that the arrangements set out in the letter had since been stood down and that revised arrangements would be made at a later date. It was agreed to keep the matter under review.

The Committee had before it an invitation from the Inter-Parliamentary Union to participate in a Parliamentary Panel during the World Summit on the Information Society in Geneva. It was agreed in principle that the Committee should be represented at the Summit subject to approval of details at the next meeting. It was further agreed that any additional travel allocation needed would be sought by the Chairman from the Chairman of the Working Group of Committee Chairmen.

The Committee noted that the Clerk had been informed that IBEC would invite the members of the Committee to a dinner on 25^th November to mark the visit to Dublin of a delegation of the Economic and Monetary Affairs Committee of the European Parliament.

The Committee had before it a letter from [name of correspondent deleted] who was dissatisfied with the results of his dealings with the Revenue Commissioners and the Ombudsman. As it appeared that the Ombudsman had not replied to an earlier letter in the case from the Committee, it was agreed that the matter be followed up with the Ombudsman.

The Committee noted the decisions of the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny on the proposals considered by it at its meeting of 6^th November.

The Committee noted that the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny had asked the Department of Finance to keep the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service informed of major developments in relation to document COM(2003)452.

4.Draft report on the future of section 481 tax relief in respect of the film industry

The Committee considered a draft Report on the Future of section 481 Tax Relief for the Film Industry.

Deputy Ó Snodaigh expressed the views that —

(i)concerning recommendation no. 1, the period for which the extension of section 481 was sought was not long enough to give the film industry the certainty it needed for medium term planning;

(ii)concerning recommendation no. 5, a time limit should be set for any strategic review; and

(iii)concerning recommendation no. 6, the cap on investment should be raised in advance of any strategic review.

Debate ensued. It was agreed that Deputy Ó Snodaigh’s observations be recorded in the minutes.

It was agreed that the draft Report be adopted as a report of the Joint Committee.

The Committee noted that, in accordance with Standing Orders, the Report must be laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas.

It was agreed that the Report be sent to the Minister for Finance, the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, the Chairman of the Revenue Commissioners, the Chairman of the Tax Strategy Group and the organisations that contributed to the Committee’s deliberations.

5.Any other business

There was no other business.

6.Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 3.55 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 26^th November.

________________________

Sean Fleming T.D.,

Chairman.

10^th December, 2003

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Wednesday, 26^th November, 2003.

The Joint Committee met at 10.09 a.m., a quorum being present.

1.Attendance

The following members attended:

2.Discussion with visiting delegation of Economic and Monetary Affairs Committee of the European Parliament

The Committee discussed issues of mutual interest with a delegation of the Economic and Monetary Affairs Committee of the European Parliament which was led by Ms. Astrid Lulling.

Following the departure of the delegation, the Committee went into private session.

3.Correspondence

[details deleted]

4.Travel proposal

[details deleted]

5.Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 11.15 a.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 10^th December.

________________________

Sean Fleming T.D.,

Chairman.

10^th December, 2003

Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service

Proceedings of the Joint Committee

Wednesday, 10^th December, 2003.

At 5.45 p.m., a quarter of an hour after the time appointed for the meeting having lapsed and a quorum not being present, the Committee stood adjourned in accordance with Standing Orders. The Clerk convened a meeting for 6 p.m. on the same day.

The Joint Committee met at 6.02 p.m., a quorum being present.

1.Attendance

The following members attended:

Apologies for inability to attend were received from Deputy Michael Finneran and Senator Joe O’Toole who were representing the Committee at the World Summit on the Information Society in Geneva.

2.Minutes of meetings of 12^th and 26^th November, 2003

Minutes of the meetings of 12^th and 26^th November were agreed.

Arising from the minutes —

(i)the Committee noted that, in accordance with an instruction of the Committee, a letter had issued to [name of correspondent deleted] who was dissatisfied with the result of his dealings with the Revenue Commissioners and the Ombudsman;

(ii)members welcomed the announcement by the Minister for Finance in his Budget statement that the section 481 tax relief for the film industry would be extended and broadened;

(iii)Deputies Burton and O’Caoláin suggested that the Committee examine the Minister’s decision to extend tax reliefs applicable to investments in certain kinds of property: it was agreed to consider the matter in the context of the Work Programme for 2004;

(iv)the Chairman suggested that the Committee examine the implementation of the Civil Service decentralisation proposal announced by the Minister for Finance. The Committee agreed to consider the matter, including the scope of any such examination, in the context of the Work Programme for 2004.

3.Correspondence

European Parliament Committee on Budgets

The Committee had before it a letter from the Chairman of the European Parliament’s Committee on Budgets concerning the meeting of that Committee with committee chairmen from national parliaments in October, 2003. It was agreed to reply to the effect that the Joint Committee welcomes the opening up of this channel of communication, that it is happy with the format of the meeting on 7^th October and that it would be receptive to a further meeting in October, 2004.

European Scrutiny

The Committee noted the decisions made by the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny at its meeting of 20 November, 2003. In particular, the Committee noted that no proposals had been referred to it for further scrutiny, but that proposals COM(2003)659 and COM(2003)661 had been sent to it for information and that the Departments of Finance and Enterprise, Trade and Employment, respectively, had been asked to inform the Committee of any major developments in relation to the two proposals.

Report of the Commission on Public Service Pensions

The Committee had before it a letter from Deputy Burton with which was enclosed a letter from the ASTI concerning the recommendations of the Commission on Public Service Pensions in respect of second-level teachers. The Chairman ruled that the matter was within the remit of the Committee subject to the need to respect the remit of other Committees in relation to certain aspects of the matter. It was agreed that, before agreeing to examine the matter in detail, a briefing note on the implementation of the Commission’s Report be requested from the Department of Finance.

EU VAT Directive

The Committee noted a letter from the Department of Finance providing information requested by the Committee at its meeting of 18^th September, 2003.

Bank of Scotland

The Committee had before it a letter from the Chief Executive of the Bank of Scotland inviting members to a presentation in Dublin on 29^th January, 2004. The Committee agreed to reply to the effect that the date appeared to be suitable for members and that it would be a matter for members individually to decide whether or not to attend.

4.EU Scrutiny - consideration of present position re. proposals COM(2003)397 and 446

The Committee had before it a briefing note from the Department of Finance concerning EU proposals COM(2003)397 and 446 which the Committee, on 30^th October, had agreed to scrutinise. The Committee noted that COM(2003)397 was no longer under active discussion and that COM(2003)446 was agreed at ECOFIN on 10^th November.

The Committee agreed that it would not now scrutinise the proposals but that it would ask the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny whether procedures could be reviewed so that unforeseen developments would be notified to Committees.

5.Draft Report on the Policy of Commercial Banks regarding Customer Charges and Interest Rates

The Committee agreed that an outline draft report prepared by the Clerk be the template for the Report on the Policy of Commercial Banks regarding Customer Charges and Interest Rates.

6.Any other business

There was no other business.

7.Adjournment

The Committee adjourned at 6.55 p.m. until Wednesday, 14^th January.

________________________

Sean Fleming T.D.,

Chairman.

14^th January, 2004