Committee Reports > List of Committees > Joint > 1998 > Committee on Education and Science > Report No. 01 - Literacy Levels in Ireland

AN COMHCHOISTE UM OIDEACHAS AGUS EOLAÍOCHT

JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE

Dé Máirt, 31 Márta, 1998.

Tuesday, 31 March, 1998.

The Joint Committee met at 5.05 p.m.

Members Present:

Deputy Michael Kitt (in the Chair)

Chairman: Are the minutes of the joint meeting of 3 March 1998 agreed? Agreed. The sub-committee met last week and agreed a work programme which has been circulated to members. Is it agreed the sub-committee should proceed in accordance with that work programme? Agreed. The committee will meet tomorrow morning for the following reason. The committee received a letter from the National Adult Literacy Agency requesting an opportunity to make a presentation to the committee on adult literacy. Following discussion with the convenors, the agency was invited to meet the committee tomorrow morning at 9.30 a.m. That meeting will last for one hour and will adjourn at 10.30 a.m.

The Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science, Deputy O’Dea, has been invited to discuss the current position in regard to adult literacy in Ireland. I welcome the Minister of State and his officials, Mr. Des O’Loughlin, Assistant Principal, Department of Education and Science, and Mr. Eamonn Murtagh, Inspector - Mr. Murtagh attended previous meetings. I would ask the Minister to make a short presentation and we will have questions and answers thereafter.

Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science (Mr. O’Dea): Thank you for your invitation. To the best of my recollection, I was invited here previously but was unable to attend, and I apologise for that. I am always happy to oblige the committee and am always at your service. I am conscious you have already had discussions with the compiler of the OECD report on adult literacy and with officials of my Department. The committee is, therefore, well informed about adult education and I will try to avoid repeating what you have already been told.

The following measures were identified in our manifesto for implementation so that all adults have access to a high

I shall deal first with the issue of literacy. Over the past few years activists in the adult education area have, with increasing frequency and intensity, expressed dissatisfaction with the State’s provision for adult education. While there were steady annual increases in the money made available, it was considered totally inadequate in comparison with requirements, particularly in the area of adult literacy. Parties who were closely involved in the delivery of adult education, that is VECs, the voluntary organisation, AONTAS, and the National Adult Literacy Agency, felt that the Department underestimated the extent of the problem. This view was vindicated by the publication of an OECD survey which revealed that approximately 25 per cent of Irish adults aged between 16 and 65 have very low levels of literacy. Those bodies raised the issues in several public fora. For example, Partnership 2000 states that policy and strategy will give priority to the provision of a continuum of education for adult and community groups, including second chance education.

Adult education featured in last year’s general election campaign. On my appointment as the first Minister of State whose brief includes specific responsibility for adult education, I was faced with the task of implementing commitments made in our election manifesto. Among those commitments were that we would, in partnership with NALA and other interested parties, formulate and implement a national policy on literacy. We also accepted the agency’s view that the option of becoming literate is a fundamental educational and human right for all adults and that the acquisition of literacy skills is a social responsibility, not an individual problem.

quality literacy service. First, the adult literacy and community education budget should be increased to a minimum of £4 million so that students will have greater access to increased literacy tuition in appropriate premises with child care provision.

Second, adequate funding needs to be provided to meet the needs of the increasing number of students who come forward for help as a result of publicity and recruitment strategies. Third, the maintenance and continuity of a service which is a fundamental educational right should not be dependent on the goodwill of volunteers alone. Extra funding must be allocated to decrease the current over- dependence on volunteer literacy workers. Fourth, there should be a flexible and wide-ranging choice of tuition options, for example, small groups/individual help, open learning centres, etc., to cater for the diversity of needs among adult literacy students. Fifth, literacy help should be available throughout the year with a full range of tuition times, for example, evening provision, daytime provision, weekend courses and full-time and part-time courses. Sixth, assessment and evaluation processes to promote the quality of literacy work and the effectiveness of literacy schemes must be drawn up in consultation with the practitioners and students and be guided by the principles and philosophy of adult education.

In the Budget Statement of the Minister for Finance on 3 December last, the 1998 budget for adult literacy was increased by £2 million to £4.065 million, thereby fulfilling the manifesto commitment. I am currently in consultation with interested parties on how to put this increase to most effective use. However, I have decided that it will be used entirely for literacy rather than shared with community education.

The extra provision will afford such possibilities as extending the period of the literacy courses, recruiting more students, intensifying the courses, undertaking publicity campaigns to encourage people to come to classes who have previously been reluctant to do so or engaging more professional literacy staff. I intend to continue to increase the provision for the relief of adult illiteracy as resources permit. To ensure that the Government’s commitment to place the adult literacy service as the centre of adult education is implemented nationwide, I have directed all vocational education committees to ensure that local adult literacy interests are adequately represented on their adult education boards.

A two pronged approach is necessary to tackle the literacy problem. This involves complementing our adult literacy campaign with a range of supportive measures aimed at disadvantaged children at primary and post-primary level to try to get them to stay on at school for as long as possible and so avoid becoming part of tomorrow’s adult literacy problem. These supportive measures include the development of early start centres, the allocation of extra manpower and financial resources to disadvantaged areas, the breaking the cycle initiative, the home-school community liaison scheme, curricular adaptations to cater for disadvantaged students, special centres for travellers, the free book scheme and the alleviation of examination fees for needy pupils. As these are outside the ambit of adult education, I do not propose to deal with them in further detail. However, it is appropriate to mention them in the context of a national literacy campaign.

My Green Paper on adult education is in the course of

Deputy P. Carey: I welcome the Minister of State and preparation. Its general objectives will be to lay the groundwork for the rationalisation of the whole area of adult education and the formulation of a national policy for the future of adult education. A draft will be ready at Easter or soon after. The Green Paper will set out the philosophy and current practices in adult education and give details of all the services provided. It will deal with issues such as adult education in a changing society, the provision and delivery mechanisms, the gaps in the current provision, community education, access, progression, accreditation, certification, resources and structures. It will cover the services available for people with particular requirements, such as unemployed people, people with disabilities, travellers and the demand for service through the Irish language.

The paper will set itself a number of aims. It will locate the aims in the context of the historical success of Irish society in developing a mass education provision at first and second levels and in providing the opportunity for one and two students to progress to third level. It will suggest that adult education is another important challenge in developing universal education provision. Attention will be drawn to current growth patterns in society to the good fortune of the current generation of young people in terms of education and labour market opportunities.

The Green Paper will identify the adult education task as the achievement of a qualitative transformation on what has gone before. Its aim will be to foster an informed and concerned awareness in the public by alerting it to the essential contribution of adult education in meeting the challenges which confront modern society; to evaluate current provision in Ireland in the context of international trends and commitments; to strengthen the political and administrative purpose in transforming a fragmented, poorly co-ordinated, poorly resourced, low priority sector into a dynamic, proactive, self-confident educational sector; to explore mechanisms whereby the richness and innovative energy and targeted impact, which are evident in many current adult and community education activities, are nurtured and supported by an appropriate statutory response; to identify the action priorities in areas of provision, resources and structures which might underpin the short and long-term development of the sector, and to examine how adult education can respond to social needs and to the needs of the economy.

The paper will be designed to stimulate a wide-ranging debate among all the parties in the area. The outcome of these deliberations and the conclusions reached will enable the preparation of a White Paper. It is my intention that the White Paper will reflect as widely as possible a consensus of the views of everybody involved in the field of adult education. In due course, it is my intention that legislation will be put in place so that the entire adult education field will be put on a statutory footing. I look forward to hearing and taking on board the comments of the committee.

Chairman: I welcome the Minister of State’s statement that the Green Paper will be ready at Easter. I invite members to put questions to the Minister of State.

thank him for his comprehensive overview of his position.

It is good that the Minister of State has a dedicated role in terms of looking after adult education and I compliment him for ensuring a significant and welcome increase for adult literacy in the recent budget. The presentation of a Green Paper is most welcome.

Some members have been involved in adult literacy programmes through their VEC and other commitments over the years. Undoubtedly, there is a need to draw the strands together and put adult literacy on the important plane which the rest of the education sector enjoys. It is similar to the youth and sport area which was a Cinderella sector a number of years ago. The adult literacy area needs the energy of somebody like the Minister of State to ensure priority is given to it. Otherwise, it will not be taken seriously.

The Minister of State raised the issue of child care early in his presentation. One of the greatest deficiencies in the provision of adult education is the lack of child care facilities. I recall in recent years that a partial commitment was given that child care facilities would be provided in certain centres where a high number of adult education courses is provided. I ask the Minister of State to advance matters in this regard. The participation of the population is skewed in terms of young mothers who need child care facilities. Good crèche facilities were provided under the aegis of FÁS but, unfortunately, it lacked a programme which would be worthwhile for the children in the crèches. If the cycle is to be broken, courses must be targeted at adults but, in terms of prevention, there must also be early education courses targeted at children.

Regarding the decision of the Minister of State not to allow some of this year’s budget to be allocated towards community education, in a great many cases community education is the soil in which the seeds of interest in education are sown. I have seen many worthwhile programmes, the genesis of which began with a strong community education provision, not only in this city but elsewhere. It may be more appropriate for some of the provision for community education to be made available through the Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs or other Departments. The Department of Education and Science sometimes picks up the tab for work that is more appropriate to the Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs and vice versa.

We need to diversify approaches and concentrate on child care services. I would like the Minister of State to comment on his rationale in relation to the community education issue. We should not be too critical of the diversity of approaches because that is often worthwhile. I have a good deal of interest in promoting the role of volunteers in community education. Voluntary tutors provide a great service and their contribution in creating confidence in other adults to enable them come forward with some of their problems is very commendable. It is not fair that the volunteers should be expected to shoulder all the burden of delivery and I ask the Minister of State to

Deputy Carey said he had some reservations about my decision to allocate the increase in the provision this year entirely for literacy purposes. That was my decision and I take full responsibility for it. It was not one I took lightly nor was it a knee jerk reaction to the findings of the OECD report or anything of that nature. It was taken after careful consultation with the main players in the field, Aontas, consider the possibility of creating additional full-time literacy organiser posts. A number of those posts are established around the country and the holders of them provide an important function.

In relation to the adult education boards, I was delighted to hear the Minister of State say he would like some of those who deliver the service and the interests of some of the consumers of that service reflected in the membership of adult education boards. In my experience some of the groupings on the adult education boards are a little removed from a hands on approach that would contribute to a more enlightened delivery in certain cases.

Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science (Mr. O’Dea): A number of queries have been raised. Deputy Carey said he would like adult education developed as a separate strand of the education system. Members will know there are three strands to it, primary level , secondary level and third level. A number of commentators made the point that if we are to properly face the challenges of the future there should be a fourth strand and that adult education should be given the same degree of attention and priority as the other three strands. Looking to the next millennium, I envisage that within a quarter of a century or perhaps even a decade, we will be living in a society where the vast majority of children will be better educated than their parents. That trend will develop and one shudders to think the implications that will have for authorities generally.

Ageism has also become a feature of our society. People now tend to live longer. While it was assumed that young people would look after their elders, although that was not necessarily the case, we must depart from that assumption in light of the increase in the growth of individualism. There is no doubt elderly people will face a lonely and isolated old age without the support they might have expected from their families in the past. Adult education, if properly structured, could play a major part in improving their quality of life. It is an ideal mechanism to smooth the jagged edges of generational conflict. At some time in the future, perhaps not in my lifetime, the adult education strand will have equal status with the other three strands.

I accept Deputy Carey’s point about the need for child care provision. Something in the order of £2.7 million was allocated to the provision of child care facilities for Youthreach and VTOS participants for the period 1997-9. That allocation was made in response to a long-standing demand and it is a beginning. I would favour the provision of some type of child care for those who are taking basic literacy courses. I agree with the Deputy’s point and I would like us to reach that position in the not too distant future. That is my aim and ambition. I will strongly press the Department of Education and Science to make the necessary resources available.

NALA, the IVEA, which represents the vocational education committees, and a number of discussions with the senior personnel of VECs with whom I am well acquainted. I accept the Deputy’s point that sometimes it is necessary to develop hobby type courses to encourage people into the system and when in it they can be encouraged to take up a basic literacy course. I am not allocating the entire budgetary provision for literacy purposes despite rumours to the contrary. I directed this year’s increase in the allocation of £2 million will be allocated entirely for literacy purposes for this year alone. I did that after careful consultation and in response to opinions expressed to me by experts in the area and by those working on the ground within the system. I will review how that will work in light of our experience over the coming year and what is said to me. If there is a need to depart from that decision or repeat it, I will take that decision at the appropriate time.

I also agree with Deputy Carey’s point that voluntary tutors should be encouraged and there is a need for more professionalism in the system. We have approximately 45 adult literacy organisers throughout the country and only five of them are full-time, the other 40 are part-time. The manifesto presented by NALA and Aontas prior to the last general election focused heavily on the need to introduce more professionalism and more full-time literacy organisers. The only way that can be responded to is by the Government providing more funds in this area which we have now done. The VECs will have a certain amount of discretion as to how they will use their funds. If any VECs submits a proposal to me that it wishes to use part of its funding to employ a literacy organiser, previously employed on a part-time basis, on a full-time basis, I will consider that favourably. We have practically doubled the budget from the initial provision in 1997. We are now working from a base which has virtually doubled in a year.

The more we can build on that - I will enter into the appropriate negotiations with the Department of Finance on that shortly - the more professional full-time literacy organisers we will be able to afford to employ in the system. While I am in favour of that, I take this opportunity to compliment the efforts of the volunteers who have given freely of their time to do this work. Last year approximately 2,500 tutors volunteered their time to do this work and their input into the system was a 130,000 hours of teaching. If the State had to pay them, even on a part-time basis at the appropriate rate per hour, it would have cost it another £2 million. However, we must reduce our dependence on voluntarism and introduce more professionalism to the system. The only way to do this is to provide more money and we have made a good start in this regard.

Deputy R. Bruton: I thank the Minister for coming to the meeting to discuss this matter which is at the heart of a successful education policy. It is extremely disturbing to note the report’s findings of a high rate of literacy problems not only among the adult population, but among 16 to 25 year olds. It is much more difficult to excuse low literacy levels in that age group given our recent modern education system.

Deputy O’Dea: I thank the Deputy for his remarks. He asked how many people are classified at level one in the OECD survey. It does not take a mathematical genius to work out that a quarter of the adult population is 500,000. I would caution members from taking on board the knee- jerk media reaction that there are suddenly 500,000 people who cannot read. Those who study the OECD report will realise it deals with different levels of literacy rather than the simple question of literacy versus illiteracy. A number

How many of the estimated 770,000 with literacy problems is the Minister reaching with the £2 million plus that is being spent on schemes? What does he consider a reasonable response? Are we reaching 20,000 to 40,000 people each year? What target should be set in this regard? He would be able to make a much better case to get money from the Department of Finance if he could outline that we are not meeting a set target.

In so far as the study touches at all on adult education participation, it indicates that only 10 per cent of those with the lowest levels of literacy participate in adult education compared to 55 per cent at the top level. The Minister is correct, therefore, to suggest that a general increase in the adult education budget would not reach those with serious literacy problems. Has he devised a programme that will reach those who are slow to come forward? He stated that he hopes to move from voluntarism to a more professional approach. Does he believe that is consistent with increased participation? Many believe volunteers have a better network and are more likely to persuade people to participate in adult education.

Approximately 21 per cent of 13 and 14 year olds are reported to show low scoring levels in reading compared to only 5 per cent in Finland and France, the best performers. It is obvious, therefore, that there is a problem in the early years of our second level education system. There is also a problem at primary level, where many children with learning difficulties in first class are not being identified. Would the Minister favour the introduction of a basic literacy test in first class at primary level and in first year at second level to identify students who appear to have learning difficulties? If such tests were carried out, the remedial resource service could be directed at the schools with the highest number of such pupils and at those who exhibit problems within schools? It is very haphazard to leave it up to individual teachers to identify those with problems. At the very best they can determine priorities within their schools, but they certainly cannot determine priorities for remedial resources as between schools. That is the Minister’s role.

I note the Minister is undertaking a study of the effectiveness of remedial teaching. What are its terms of reference? Concerns have been expressed that remedial teaching does not always attract prime teachers. This study involves substantial investment in resources. If it does not deliver results - as would be suggested by the performance of 16 to 25 year olds - it must be given serious consideration. It is important that the 1,200 involved at primary level and the 400 at secondary level have an impact. The findings in regard to literacy levels indicate that the remedial service is not as effective as we would like. Will the Minister indicate the scope of the study he is undertaking?

of people who did not pass a screening test were classified as suitable for level one. Some of those who were able to perform the basic tasks set at level one were, however, deemed to have failed because they could not perform 80 per cent of the tasks necessary to pass into level two. While I do not wish to minimise the extent of the problem - which came as a shock to us all - there is quite a variation even within level one. At the lower end of the scale there are people who are illiterate and at the other end there are those who can read provided the text is not too complex and clearly set out. I take Deputy Burton’s point about the relatively poor performance of 16 to 25 year olds highlighted by the survey. This is a matter of grave concern. The Deputy will be aware that the Minister has devised a five year programme of literacy tests in reading for fifth years, which will start this year. He is also devising a five year programme of tests in mathematics.

Mr. R. Bruton: Is that not too late, should the tests not be carried out in first year?

Deputy O’Dea: I will come to that later. I am dealing with the Deputy’s first point. For the first time in the history of the State there will be a programme of five year tests in mathematics. The Deputy will also be aware that international surveys carried out in 1991 and 1996 reveal that the position among younger people is improving at an appreciable level. One of those surveys relates to nine year olds and the other relates to 14 year olds. The performance seems to be better in the younger age groups, which bodes well for the future.

I do not want to minimise the fact we are quite concerned or the degree of our concern about the fact that 16 to 25 year olds performed less well than I would have thought in the OECD survey.

Deputy Bruton asked how many more people we can reach with the increased allocation. We asked the VEC’s, NALA and the IVEA, the representative organisation for the VEC’s, how best to use the money. If they took the view that the best use was to bring in more customers, we would be able to double the number of people with whom we are dealing immediately. At present 5,000 are being dealt with at any one point over a period of 30 weeks and for two hours per week.

There is, however, a range of options available to the VEC’s, including weekend, day time or more intensive courses and obtaining materials and equipment, particularly in the information technology area. I will not be in a position to answer that question with any authority until the end of this year when we see how the money has been spent and how many more people we can get into the system. I stress one can use the money beneficially and it is not necessarily most beneficial to simply double the number of people with whom we are dealing. There are other things with which we could do with the money.

Deputy Bruton is right in relation to outreaching. One of the startling features of the OECD report was that two thirds of those at level one regarded their literary skills as excellent or very good. Not only do we have a problem, but it is aggravated by the fact that the majority who have a problem do not realise it. It is difficult to reach some of those people as there is a certain stigma involved. If we look through the OECD report, we will see that people will own up to numeracy difficulties more readily than literacy difficulties. It seems the final stigma for somebody to admit they cannot read properly. I am conscious of that difficulty and it will be dealt with in some detail in the forthcoming Green Paper.

I noticed the United Kingdom has moved away from the terms “literacy” and “illiteracy” and from reading and writing when encouraging people to take these types of courses. It is using terminology such as adult basic education, which is a type of soft touch marketing approach. Language is important and it will be dealt with in some detail in the Green Paper.

Deputy Bruton asked if I would favour the introduction of a basic literacy test after high infants at primary school. We have come across cases where people attended literacy courses having gone through the education system and received some sort of accreditation but, nevertheless, they were forced to come back to attend literacy courses in later life because it was found they could not read properly. I have set up an expert group in the Department to talk to these people to find out how what happened in the primary education system, how they got through the system and concealed their difficulty for so long and how they managed to graduate with a qualification, which is intriguing.

We will rely on this expert group to tell us what is wrong with the system and to put a mechanism in place to give us an early warning about people who fall into that category but who are escaping through the net at present. If this necessitates a test of the type to which the Deputy referred, I would be in favour of it. As Deputy Bruton knows, I do not exclusively control policy in this area. I set up this committee in good faith with the agreement of the Minister and the Government. While I will not be bound by its recommendations, I will take them seriously. There is a high degree of probability that its recommendations will be accepted. If it involves something like that, then so be it and I have no objection.

The Deputy also asked me about the terms of reference of the committee reviewing remedial teaching which I do not have them to hand. Deputy Bruton will be aware the review of remedial teaching taking place is more within the domain of my senior colleague, the Minister, but I will discuss with him whether it would be in order to give the Deputy the terms of reference. For my part, I have no objection and I do not see why Opposition spokespersons should not get such information. There may be some objections which I do not see at present.

There has been much public comment, including articles, to the effect that although everyone accepts we need more remedial teachers, one must question whether a remedial teacher spending an hour, two hours or even a half day in a school is any good in practice. While the number of remedial teachers has increased dramatically in recent years, the resources are still pretty thinly spread. Rather than simply throwing money at the problem, the review is necessary because experts in the area believe we must look at the whole area of remedial teaching to see how we can make more effective use of the money we are putting into it. That is not to say we do not need more in terms of absolute numbers. I accept we do and the Minister is committed to providing more.

Remedial teachers are encouraged to integrate with mainstream staff in the schools in which they work. Obviously, they will work in tandem with other staff members and will communicate what they are doing. While I do not suggest we turn every teacher into a remedial teacher, teachers working in tandem with remedial teachers will be involved in that type of work, although it would not be something which they would normally do or a matter to which they would normally give their attention. There will be an element of remedial teaching by ordinary teachers as a result of their interaction with remedial teachers. In relation to the terms of reference of the review group, I will discuss with the Minister whether we can get those terms of

Deputy Naughten: I thank the Minister for coming today. The majority of adult education course which are in train are second and third level courses. Few courses are specifically dedicated to adult education. Has the Minister of State any plans to review this matter and put such courses in place? Some 12.5 per cent of the population have literacy capabilities of those leaving primary school and second or third level courses will not suit them.

Improving literacy in the workplace is a crucial area at which we should look as it raises barriers as regards promotion within the workplace. Has the Minister of State discussed the possibility of introducing a scheme through industry perhaps by way of a tax incentive with the Minister, the Tánaiste or the Minister for Finance? We could encourage industry to put more resources into the education of its workforce. There seems to be a lack of awareness among those with the problem but if these courses were ongoing and if ongoing training was provided within the workplace, it would alleviate part of the problem and people would not feel as inhibited if the general workforce was going through this training programme. It would make them aware of their problem. This proposal should be considered because at the end of the day it will benefit the employer if an employee who is capable of doing another job is prohibited from so doing by their literacy problem. Has the Minister considered putting in place training courses and some form of accreditation for the volunteers because many of them are students thinking of becoming teachers who use it as part of work experience? If there was an incentive in the form of additional training from it or accreditation through it, it might encourage more people in the voluntary sector to get involved in it.

I have come across a number of cases in the VTOS scheme, especially in the case of single mothers, for instance, where the quota system has inhibited such people taking up these schemes. Where, say, 80 per cent of the places were for unemployed people and 20 per cent for single mothers, the person was not 12 months unemployed but was a single mother and there were no remaining places for single mothers, that person was being discriminated against because of the quota system. I ask the Minister to examine whether the quota system has been of benefit to the people which it is supposed to be targeting.

I raised previously the matter of the contact the Minister has had with other Ministers - those in the Department of Family, Community and Social Affairs and the Department of Agriculture and Food are the two which come to mind but the Ministers in the Department of Health are also relevant having regard to medical cards, etc. - regarding the standard of applications which are being used. In addition, has the Minister discussed this with his European counterparts because many of these forms, especially those from the Department of Agriculture and Food, now come through the Commission? The LEADER forms, for instance, all come through the Commission and they are

I have established a committee to develop the concept of an adult education bank under the chairmanship of Mr. Noel Whelan, the Vice-President and Dean of the University of Limerick. It comprises representatives from reference for Deputy Bruton and I will communicate with him in the next day or two.

standardised at Commission level. It is not only a national problem. There are similar statistics in Britain and no doubt in other countries throughout the Community. We should look at the bigger aspect of this within other Departments and the EU. I am sure the Minister and members of the committee have come across cases where people come into our clinics asking us to complete basic application forms because they cannot do it themselves. We must make these forms easier to complete. It is unfair that farmers, who do not have the necessary literacy skills to complete the application form in the first place, are being reprimanded and fined by the Department of Agriculture and Food because they did not complete an application form properly.

Mr. O’Dea: I thank Deputy Naughten for his contribution. He makes a couple of solid points. On adult education courses, he is correct when he says that the vast majority of people are pursuing further education in the sense that they are going on to second and third levels and those are the type of courses they are taking. I suppose it depends on what one means by adult education, and there will be a definition in the forthcoming Green Paper because we must decide what we are talking about before we put a structure on the entire area.

The definition of adult education has varied widely from country to country. In some countries it is quite narrow; in others there is the broadest possible definition. I am told that in the Netherlands there are even adult education courses on preparing people for dying. Maybe we should start one on how to live here. I will look at the Deputy’s point in the context of the definition of adult education and what we intend to encompass by adult education will be dealt with in some detail in the Green Paper.

I take the Deputy’s point about industry and the need for employers to become involved in the adult education process. There was a Forfás report in 1996 which showed that, at 1.2 per cent, Irish employers spent the lowest proportion of their labour cost on retaining among OECD countries. That study further showed that over half that amount was spent on teaching people about new safety systems which were imposed on employers by legislation and in teaching people how to manage new machinery and technology.

We are facing into a new millennium and it is envisaged that in about a quarter of a century or less, at our present rate of progress, we will have reached a stage where people may have to change jobs five or six times in the course of a lifetime. My colleague in the European Commission, Mr. Pádraig Flynn, has averted to the fact that the concept of security of employment will be replaced by the security of employability. We will be in an era where we will be teaching more and more courses to a greater number of people which have a shorter lifespan, and I hope there will not be with less money with which to do it.

IBEC, the trades unions, various branches of industry and various Departments. This would be a fund into which various parties would invest money. The fund would be managed - the remit of the committee would be to tell us how to do it - to enable people to retrain, and to finance them during that process. To put the economy at the cutting edge of that development, we must be thinking ahead. I set up this expert committee to tell me how we should be planning ahead. I expect to have its report before the end of the summer and I think it will be interesting. We have engaged in discussions with IBEC and, indeed, the trades unions, who have an important part to play in persuading employers to become involved. I hope those negotiations and representations will bear fruit.

On Deputy Naughten’s point about accreditation for volunteers, I compliment the Waterford Institute of Technology, with which Deputy O’Shea will be familiar, for its initiative on developing a diploma for adult literacy organisers. That received formal recognition from the NCCA last June. Let us hope it is only the start of the accreditation process because it has been recognised for many years that some sort of accreditation or training system for the tutors and organisers is necessary. Again, that is a matter to which I have asked the people preparing the Green Paper to give great attention. There will be detailed proposals on that in the forthcoming Green Paper.

I take Deputy Naughten’s point on VTOS and the quota system. In fact, I had a similar experience. We have gone to the Department of Finance with a view to making some quite radical changes on the quota system there. I cannot tell the Deputy any more than that at present. I am awaiting the mandarins in come back to me. I hope our representations will be successful.

Contrary to popular opinion, there is a certain amount of rural area in my constituency and I have, in common with my colleagues, the misfortune of helping members of the farming community deal with those dreadful application forms for the various miscellany of grants which are now available to farmers. It is a nightmare. I have qualifications in law and accountancy, and I am often put to the pin of my collar to complete those applications. I have been in contact with the Minster for Agriculture and Food about this both in writing and directly.

I would refer Deputy Naughten to the strategic management initiative under the aegis of which all Departments are considering how to become more customer friendly and how to present people with more comprehensible forms for the various benefits and entitlements.

I expressed my outrage and frustration to the Minister for Agriculture and Food on a number of occasions about those dreadful farming forms but there is little point in my falling around all the different Departments and Ministers of State when I know there is an initiative being undertaken at Government level about this matter. I understand that initiative is well advanced. Let us hope it will result in application forms for basic entitlements which are comprehensible to the people for whom those forms are designed. It seems the people who designed the forms took absolutely no account of the target population who would be dealing with those forms. I welcome the Government’s strategic management initiative in that regard. It was initiated by the previous Government and I hope it bears fruit, in that respect in particular.

Chairman: There are a number of questions the Minister might take together. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Senator Ormonde: I apologise for my late arrival but I was caught in traffic on the way here. I complement the Minister. He has fielded every question, a reflection of his grasp of the whole area.

When one considers the choice of tuition one must think about the assessment necessary to determine the sort of tuition and the type of people out there. The whole area is quite lose in my view. I would add that we must examine the kind of tutors which exist. Not every remedial teacher is good at teaching adults, not every remedial teacher is even good. I say that in the sense that remedial teachers are often encouraged after a certain length of time that they should move away from it because one cannot stay at that level for too long. It is important, therefore, that we assess the personalities of the tutors as much as we assess the personalities of the people who may be illiterate to some extent. I have dealt with disadvantage in education right through primary, secondary and vocational level. I have come across both points of view; those who need help and have not the confidence to reach out and, on the other side, the remedial teacher who may have a personality which is immediately off putting and will not be able to instil confidence - there is nothing wrong with the teacher but that person may not be right for the job. There is much of that in the area and for whatever reason people shy away after the first meeting.

You can start from a base of second level schools as often you find if you have remedial students, the adults are in the same frame. The home-school link can be used in this category to pick up where the weaknesses exist. I also advocate the guidance counsellor for my profession. There is a dearth of personnel in that area. The counsellor could be brought into adult education to deal with assessment of personality and psychology and tuition levels. I know the Minister has given much thought to this area but it is very close to my own heart.

Deputy O’Shea: I also welcome the Minister and complement him on the work he has done for the sector so far in terms of extra funding and initiating the Green Paper and working from there to a White Paper.

Young people working in community employment schemes in the care sector is an area which concerns me. They reach a high standard in their skills but because there is no educational component whereby they could gain a qualification at the end of a year or two years, there is no structure for entrance into the more formal sector such as certification at institute of technology level. The NCVA would be an appropriate vehicle for developing a modular approach. Courses consisting of 90 hours of lectures can be provided leading to a qualification at the end. Whether we are talking about the care of the mentally or physically disabled or the elderly, the demand for trained personnel in these areas is going to increase. People who have demonstrated capability should be given every assistance to enter the formal system and move their careers on from there.

I have not taught in ten years and it seems to me that children who have low levels of attainment in reading are more and more being diagnosed as dyslexic. Is there any reason to believe that this condition is more widespread than was previously believed? If it is not detected early and the specialised approach is not adopted, is there any way by which adults who have this condition can be assisted in

Tracking students who demonstrate difficulties from the beginning is an area of concern. Even when they have gone through the formal system and may have had the benefit of schemes such as Youthreach and VTOS, they often fall out of the system entirely. Would it be proper if a record were kept of these students and they were targeted at various times to encourage them back into the adult education system? You can identify them and have a targeted approach in terms of encouraging them back into education. It is an area worth exploring.

The Minister has made allusions in the Green Paper to practice in Holland and the UK. Are there countries with a high rate of success in the area of adult literacy? Are there models which we can adapt?

The Minister made a point in the context of senior citizens availing of education which has another side. There is a shortage of national school teachers at the moment. It might be worth looking at the option of letting people continue in teaching after the age of 65, as used to happen. This would deal with the present deficit and those who are committed would have something special to offer in terms of their experience in education.

Senator Chambers: I listened to the previous speaker’s proposal that people who reach the age of 65 want to extend their term as teachers. In my view the teaching profession is so demanding nowadays that most people who reach the age of 65 feel they have enough of the job. I welcome the Minister’s proposal in relation to the Green Paper. As a member of Mayo VEC, I am aware of the amount of resources being spent on education and wonder how so many people have literacy problems coming through a system on which so much State resources and private investment is being spent. It begs the question what can be done to deal with the problem. I welcome the Minister’s commitment in relation to increased funding. Is the funding of adult and remedial educational being provided by the Exchequer or is it European funding?

The Green Paper talks about the rationalisation and formulation of a national policy for the future of adult education. Many counties have done a lot of work in relation to this matter. County Mayo has run very successful outreach programmes which have done enormous work for young people who failed in mainstream education. I have seen young people who have got a second chance through these outreach programmes. Many teachers have worked diligently in relation to this type of education. The personal development of these young people as a result of such commitment is quite surprising. Adult literacy problems can be tackled on a county basis. Each county, together with the Department of Education and Science, should draw up a plan on how this matter should be approached. It is fair to say that in some counties there is a noticeable decline in the educational standards of young students. We would need to know how educational resources are being dispensed throughout these counties. I believe there is duplication of resources. The development and natural resources of areas should be looked at in order to identify the potential for young people to reside and work in these areas.

gaining the skills which they need?

Deputy Farrelly: I apologise for missing the beginning of the Minister’s presentation and I welcome him here today.

I welcome the provision of extra money for the adult literacy campaign this year. I note that the VECs have not yet received their allocations which they much have spent by the end of the year. When is it intended to provide these allocations? A number of people require much more time than they receive at the moment. How can we include people who are shy of coming into the system and remaining after their initial discussions with a tutor? While we are putting in place the funding, directing it so that it will benefit as many people as possible is very important. There is no point doing things on a small scale because those who are involved feel they need more resources and this is an opportunity they thought they would never get. While £4 million is a big increase, it is small in terms of what is required.

Education programmes could be more beneficially structured given the fact that schools are available on Saturdays. Unless classes are extended to Saturday there will not be the best long-term return from this programme.

Deputy O’Dea: Senator Ormonde referred to the personalities of tutors and remedial teachers. The deployment of remedial teachers, and the remedial service generally, is more within the domain of my colleague. A detailed review of the remedial teaching system is being carried out for the past 18 months. How we can get the best possible value for the money being spent on the remedial system will be a central issue in that review. I will pass on the comments in that regard to my colleague.

In relation to the personalities of tutors and ensuring the right people are giving tuition in adult literacy, Senator Ormonde has touched on a point which is a fundamental problem in the entire adult education system at present. The difficulty is the lack of central control. The only role of the Department of Education and Science at the moment is relation to adult literacy is distributors of money. There is a complex system whereby we decide how much we give to each VEC. The system was established by the Department of Finance some years ago. The VECs send in the accounts and we provide the money, but there is no on- the-spot checking system. There is no evaluation of how well the money is being spent, whether the right people are giving tuition, the level of customer satisfaction or how one VEC compares to another. Some VECs compare very badly with others in relation to the provision of literacy courses. The question of control, getting value for money and evaluation will be considered at length in the Green Paper. We are determined to put an evaluation system in place. At the moment a consideration is that there is so little money in this budget each year that it was not worthwhile introducing a system whereby the local Department inspector would go on every adult education board in the country. That was regarded as feasible in view of the minuscule amount of money involved. But we must introduce some sort of evaluation to make sure we are getting proper value for money. I am very conscious of this fact. Part of the solution will be the creation of an adult education authority to oversee the implementation of the plan which will emerge as a result of the publication of the

Deputy O’Shea raised the question of people working on CECs in care settings. My information is that these people are entitled to an accreditation, namely, foundational level NCVA. They can then progress from there within the NCVA framework or into the mainstream framework. Deputy O’Shea also raised the question of dyslexia. The figures available to me are that approximately 2 per cent of students who suffer severe reading difficulties have been diagnosed as dyslexic. A dyslexia test is being introduced on a pilot basis. It is available in three special schools in Dublin. It is also available in two support units in ordinary schools. It will be expanded as resources permit.

Deputy O’Shea raised the issue of a national database. Such a database is being prepared at primary level. With regard to the Minister’s new initiative for eight to 15 year olds, a tracking system to identify people who have dropped out of the system or who are at risk of doing so will be developed. This is possible because by September at the latest every school will have at least one computer connected to the Internet. The technology is available for a tracking system.

Deputy O’Shea also asked about models of adult education in other countries. This is being considered by the people producing the Green Paper. It will contain references to what has happened in other countries. However, the success of any system, as the Deputy is aware, depends on the amount of money the particular Government is prepared to spend.

Regarding the issue of national teachers opting to continue teaching beyond the age of 65, a mere Minister of State could not make a decision on such a momentous matter. However, I can foresee arguments for and against such a move and I will pass on the Deputy’s comments to the Minister.

Senator Chambers asked if the increase in the provision for adult education came from European or Exchequer funds. It came from the Exchequer. The Minister for Finance would be glad to confirm that for the Senator. I agree with Senator Chambers’s point that there are some very good VECs. I recognise that County Mayo has been exemplary in this regard. It has done tremendous work.

In relation to VECs preparing their own plans with regard to outreach, etc., the Green Paper is a discussion document and various organisations and others with an interest in the area will be able to make a contribution after it is published. The distillation of all that wisdom on the part of all the participants in the field will form the basis of a White Paper which will ultimately give rise to legislation. We will be delighted to hear from County Mayo VEC, which has done sterling work in this area, if it wishes to make a contribution after the publication of the Green Paper, which cannot be delayed much longer.

Deputy Farrelly asked when the money will be released. The reason the money has not been issued already is that the IVEA and NALA were asked to make suggestions on how the money could be best spent and, as the Deputy said, to ensure that the best possible value for it is achieved. One of the organisations replied, but the other has not yet replied. We are still waiting to hear from it¹. I will direct White Paper.

this evening that last year’s allocation be issued. There will be an increased allocation this year and we have asked for guidance from those August organisations in relation to the extra amount. However, as a result of the Deputy’s point,

I will direct that the bodies immediately receive last year’s allocation.

Deputy Farrelly: If one takes the holidays into consideration, does the Minister of State accept there might be a problem if they do not get their act together in time?

Deputy O’Dea: I take that point. Deputy Farrelly also referred the importance of the structure. That is why the Green Paper is being prepared. It will deal with how to improve the structure to get the best possible value for money and bring coherence into the system. It has been recognised for at least a decade that this is necessary. The area has expanded so massively that nobody in the adult education field knows all the participants. It has become unwieldy and complex and there is a need to develop a structure not only to ensure everybody knows what is happening, but also to provide a basis to go forward in the correct direction.

Chairman: I thank the Minister of State and his officials for attending and making such an informative presentation. I also thank the members for their questions.

Chairman: The next scheduled meeting of the committee will take place on Tuesday, 28 April 1998. The next item on the committee’s work programme is the of the Department of Education and Science’s policies designed to meet the needs of children with physical and/or mental disabilities and the implementation of those policies with a view to making recommendations and proposals for improvements and integration, for example, the use of information technology and music. It is agreed that the committee should address this issue? Agreed. I ask members to consider how the issue should be addressed and who should be invited to meet the committee.

A special education review committee reported in 1993. I suggest the committee asks the Department to supply a copy of the CIRCA report and to provide representatives to address the committee on it. Is that agreed? Agreed. Members may also wish to nominate other committees or associations to address the committee.

For the information of members of the Select Committee, in advance of the Education (No. 2) Bill, 1997, being referred to the committee for Committee Stage deliberations, it has been suggested that a letter should be issued requesting up to date submissions from the groups which sent in submissions and gave presentations during the consideration of the Education Bill last year. Submissions received to date in relation to the Education (No. 2) Bill have already been circulated to members. Any further submissions will be circulated as soon as they are received. The committee can decide at a later date whether oral presentations are required. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The Joint Committee adjourned at 6.30 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 1 April 1998.

* substitute for Senator L. Ó Murchú.

apologies received from Senator Máirín Quill

¹ See appendix 1