Committee Reports > List of Committees > Dáil > 1996 > Committee of Public Accounts > Report No. 01 - Value for money examinations

MIONTUAIRISC NA FIANAISE

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

AN COISTE UM CHUNTAIS PHOIBLÍ

COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS

Déardaoin 18 Éanair 1996

Thursday 18 January 1996

The Committee met at 11 a.m.

MEMBERS PRESENT

DEPUTY DENIS FOLEY IN THE CHAIR

Mr. John Purcell (Comptroller and Auditor General) called and examined.

Mr. Stephen O’Neill (Department of Finance) in attendance.

Mr. Brian Lenehan (Department of Finance) called and examined.

Public Session.

REPORT ON VALUE FOR MONEY EXAMINATION

DEPT. OF JUSTICE - GARDA TRANSPORT

Mr. Tim Dalton, Secretary, Department of Justice, called and examined.

Chairman: I ask Mr. Dalton to introduce his officials.

Mr. Dalton: They are Mick Madden, the Finance Officer, Pat Folan, the Principal Officer on the Garda side and Declan Hogan, an Assistant Principal on that side.

Chairman: We are discussing a report on the value for money examination of Department of Justice Garda transport.

Mr. Purcell: The report covers a study that was carried out on the efficiency and economy with which the Garda transport services are delivered. The services cost about £15 million a year. This figure covers the purchase of vehicles, parts and fuel and the payroll costs of gardaí involved in maintaining and repairing the fleet and those involved in ministerial transport and other driving duties. It also covers those repair and maintenance jobs which are contracted out.

I am afraid the services do not come well out of the report on a number of scores. In practically all of the aspects of the operation examined there appears to be considerable scope for saving the State money. I will go through a few examples. The arrangements for the procurement and delivery of vehicles were such that there were lengthy delays in their deployment. Advantage was not taken of the Department’s purchasing power which would enable it to negotiate centrally for the supply of all fuel. Productivity in the Garda garage is very low by industry standards. That and the relatively high pay rates result in the cost of maintenance of vehicles at the Garda garage being up to three times the cost of vehicle maintenance at commercial garages. The use of Garda personnel for routine driving work not having a security dimension is very expensive. For instance, the average gross pay for these Garda drivers for 1994 was nearly £35,000.

I could go on in this vein but I would rather focus on what can be done to improve the situation. The Committee will see there on the last two pages of the summary that we have identified a number of value for money opportunities, a combination of which would realise substantial savings. It is hard to put definite figures on what we are talking about here but we certainly could be talking about annual savings of anything up to £750,000 a year, and maybe even more. The main opportunities lie generally in the combination of civilianisation or contracting out, with better management practices. I understand that the Department has taken remedial action arising from the report itself and also on the basis of its own research because it has not been ignorant of the problems in this whole area. It is currently implementing some changes, so the Accounting Officer will be able to bring the Committee up to date on what the Department has done since the publication of the report.

Chairman: Mr. Dalton, would you like to comment briefly on this report and its findings?

Mr. Dalton: Garda fleet management has been the subject of comment by the Public Accounts Committee on regular occasions since at least 1983. The Committee has been justifiably critical of the arrangements applying to stock control, delays in the purchase and delivery of vehicles - which the Comptroller and Auditor General has mentioned - the lack of management information, the absence of computerisation and so on. The latest report is probably the most comprehensive and valuable report we have had on the subject. It is also highly critical of what has been happening on a number of fronts, and I want to mention what we have been doing about these problems.

The criticisms arise under a number of headings, as the Comptroller and Auditor General has said. These headings include the purchase, delivery and mix of vehicles, particularly the proportion of vehicles that are motorbikes, the turnover, allocation and disposal of vehicles, the absence of clear objectives for fleet management, concern about the use of vehicles, the arrangements for the purchase of fuel, the need for changed management structures and better management information and the need for improved vehicle maintenance arrangements, specifically in relation to the Garda garage.

Before the Comptroller and Auditor General began his work in relation to the garage operation - and he has acknowledged this - senior Garda management and the Department had a committee working on the subject. They had made some progress, as the Auditor has acknowledged. An example of the progress was the introduction of just in time purchasing in 1993, which arose out of another investigation by this Committee. Just in time purchasing for stores has resulted in a cut in the value of stores by about 50 per cent. It is down from its previous value of about £270,000 to about £145,000 which is progress and justifies the introduction of just in time purchasing.

We had also begun acquiring a computerised fleet management system. I am glad to say that work on this is quite advanced and we expect to be in a position to approach the Department of Finance very shortly about placing a contract. Among the benefits of this system will be that we will, for the first time, have a whole life history of the cost of running particular models. I will say a little more about the computerisation developments in a few minutes. The Department of Justice/Garda committee, to which I have just referred, had the benefit of working very closely with the Auditor’s team while they were looking at the operations in the Depot. This opportunity was of benefit to both of us and we welcomed it.

The purchase, delivery and mix of vehicles was mentioned. The tender arrangement for the purchase of vehicles during 1996 has introduced revised practices. We have now put arrangements in place which will ensure the placing of contracts for the main purchase of new vehicles at the start of the year, thereby taking four or five months off delivery time. This will ensure much earlier delivery and a better spread of delivery throughout the year to meet requirements.

Another aspect of the new purchase arrangement is that the vehicles will be fitted out by the suppliers and not at the Depot, because there was considerable delay in fitting out vehicles. This involves putting on emblems, stripes, sirens and that sort of thing. That will be done outside the Depot from now on. It will also facilitate the speedier delivery of the newly purchased vehicles to Garda stations and thereby eliminate the situation where a large stock of new cars was sitting at the Depot for unacceptably long periods.

In regard to the mix of vehicles, that is, the types of vehicles we have, with the help of the Garda research unit, fleet allocation models have been developed to assist with the setting of targets for the mix. As a first step, the proportion of motorcycles will be reduced from 17 per cent - unacceptably high given the cost of their repair - to 10 per cent. That figure happens to be the figure set in the United Kingdom. The motorcycles will be replaced by small vans which have lower maintenance costs and are now needed much more than motor cycles in the context of rural crime and rural policing.

In regard to the turnover of vehicles, the new flexibility in the purchase and delivery system should help to ensure that the vehicles are replaced at the most opportune time, so reducing the proportion of vehicles with unacceptably high mileage. Progress has been maintained in achieving the targets aimed for in the Garda corporate strategy document; the upper mileage target there was 100,000 miles. In order to achieve this and maintain progress we purchased a large number of vehicles, amounting to 395, last year. It is difficult to measure the effects of this improved vehicle turnover policy but in principle it should result in more reliable cars and greater resale value. It will take us time to measure the impact exactly.

Fleet management objectives have now been set by the Garda/Department of Justice committee I mentioned earlier. These are quite detailed and are still being finalised. I propose to come back to the Committee with a report later in the year about progress and to include these fleet management objectives in it.

In regard to the use of vehicles, the central concern is the fact that the vehicles are being driven by gardaí who are much more expensive to employ than civilians. The Department has been studying this for some time and we were at an advanced stage to recruit 20 civilian drivers for the purposes mentioned. That is for driving urgent mail, computer tapes and that kind of thing which is now done by gardaí. I cannot say how this will progress because much will depend on how the current Government restrictions on recruitment to the public service will proceed. I do not know, for example, whether we will be able to proceed immediately with the recruitment of civilians. I will have to come back to the Committee on that when we clarify the effects of the new embargo on recruitment.

As a separate initiative, we had agreed that we would provide much less support to the prison service, that gardaí would be responsible in future only for remand prisoners. We are looking at suitable alternative arrangements for the transport of prisoners to courts, hospitals or wherever they happen to be going. We expected this to result in the release of a further 20 to 25 gardaí for operational duties. In other words, between civilianisation of what is called “details”, that is general transport, and prisoners, we are talking about the release of 40 to 45 gardaí. We are anxious to proceed with this but we will have to assess the impact of the new embargo.

With regard to the purchase of fuel, we made progress in that regard and we have virtually finalised a new tender document which will enable us to bulk purchase the 60 per cent of fuel that is not at present bulk purchased. Almost 40 per cent of Garda fuel is purchased in bulk and stored in tanks which are maintained for exclusive Garda use around the country; the remaining 60 per cent is purchased locally. The idea in the Auditor’s report, which we have taken up, is that there should be bulk purchasing of that 60 per cent. The annual value of the 60 per cent is about £2 million so we will have to advertise the tender competition in the EU journal. We expect to place this advertisement soon and we expect to save - although it is difficult to say exactly - about £100,000 per year. That might be somewhat conservative depending on the bargain we strike.

I did not mention towing of vehicles. There was a practice whereby cars which broke down anywhere in the country were towed to the Depot garage by gardaí. As a result of the cost dimension - I am not sure if this is mentioned in the Auditor’s report - we have also ceased this practice and we will rely in future on commercial garages or enterprises to deal with this. We expect a reduction in costs there as well.

We agree that there is considerable merit in the idea of an independent fleet management function. The skills are not ones which gardaí could be expected to pick up in the course of their employment, especially given the high changeover of senior management at the transport Depot. We are examining the management structures and we expect to see new arrangements within the next few months.

I have already mentioned computerisation which will be critical to the question of whether the operation is managed by gardaí or by civilians. The new computer system will issue warnings when the ratio of repairs to mileage exceeds a certain limit. It will advise how much should be spent on any vehicle given its mileage and previous record. It will identify recurring faults for particular models and thereby point out which models should be avoided and, of course, provide a complete picture of the lifetime costs.

Vehicle maintenance is the most difficult part because it requires radical change. The area the Auditor has been most critical of is, in a nutshell, the operation of the Garda garage. The bottom line is his finding that the cost of maintenance of vehicles at the garage per completed mile is over three times that of vehicles maintained in commercial garages. Serious productivity deficiencies are highlighted in the report. According to the report, Garda mechanics only work as mechanics for about 50 per cent of the hours available. Despite this there was an overtime bill of £100,000 for the garage last year and £300,000 of maintenance work was contracted out. There has been action on the overtime front, in that all overtime at the garage has been embargoed sinced 16 December last.

The senior Garda and Department management committee which has been working on this problem and to which I have referred a few times has set a target of 80 per cent instead of the current 50 per cent proportion of hours worked. This is similar to the practice in UK garages. However, no matter what productivity improvements are made the basic problem remains. The problem is that the mechanics are paid as gardaí rather than at the rates that apply in commercial garages.

It is difficult on the face of it to see how any productivity improvement, no matter what it is, can argue against the case for commercialisation of the garage. We are looking at four options at present - first, the possible civilianisation of the Garda operation, second, the closure or partial closure of the garage and the contracting out of more work, third, contracting in mechanics from commercial garages to carry out some of the work of the garage and fourth, steps which might be taken to achieve the required levels of productivity and cost effectiveness. However, as long as one is paying Garda mechanics about twice the salary that is paid in the private sector it is difficult to see how we can avoid radical change at the garage.

There are difficult issues involved - it is not as straightforward as some of the other matters. There is obviously a substantial industrial relations issue involved. The people in the garage have been working in a system which everybody thought was sound, in the sense that many Garda Chiefs, Departmental heads and Ministers in the past thought it reasonable and consistent with security requirements that the people who would repair Garda cars should automatically be gardaí. There are some indications as to why one needs a level of security in that kind of work. However, the subject needs to be revisited and we must decide whether we now need any gardaí or how many gardaí in that area and we also must consider the industrial relations issues involved. We are not talking about not changing; we are talking about managing change in an effective way.

It might be useful if I come back before the Committee in about six months time to let it know what progress is made on the matter.

Chairman: The report refers to the potential for substantial savings that could be achieved through a policy of centralised fuel procurement. Have there been any developments since this report or at what stage is this initiative?

Mr. Dalton: There have been developments. We accepted that recommendation. We have drawn up a new fuel tender document. Gardaí have identified suppliers who might be able to meet their requirements. Obviously, we might need more than one or two major suppliers because not all of them have outlets spread around the country. We might end up contracting with two major suppliers in order to have the required spread. We are the point of doing that and are determined to proceed with it. I hope that by the time I return to the Committee we will have it in place.

Chairman: Can you explain how the Garda garage could be run so inefficiently as to allow a situation to arise whereby only half the available time for the two months tested was booked against jobs yet the total overtime for the year was £100,000 and work to the value of £300,000 had to be contracted out?

Mr. Dalton: I cannot pretend that the figures mentioned by the Auditor are defensible. I cannot explain it. I made the point about the past. There is much in this report that is focused on the past and could lead to the past being held up to ridicule. Given that many people dedicated their lives and worked very assidiously there, it might be better to focus on the future. I cannot explain why it is down at 50 per cent and that is the honest answer.

Chairman: The Comptroller and Auditor General has identified several areas of potential savings in the Garda garage operation: first, the elimination of overtime - £100,000; second, reduction in contract work in the Dublin area - £200,000; third, substitution of civilian staff for Garda personnel - £250,000. Do you propose to implement any of these suggestions and what steps have you taken to increase efficiency and reduce costs in the Garda garage operation? In your preliminary statement you made reference to this.

Mr. Dalton: The overtime has been embargoed. The need for it will be reduced significantly by virtue of the fact that in future the suppliers of cars will also fit them out, which was an overtime factor. With regard to the substitution of civilian staff, that is one of the specific issues we are examining. However, we must take account of what the gardaí will say to us about security issues and we must take account of the fact that a number of men there are mechanics and were recruited as mechanics; there is an industrial relations side to this. I should explain, however, that no mechanic has been recruited to the garage since 1983 so the operation has been winding down anyway. According to the figures available to me, nobody there is under the age of 35 so the garage is arriving at that position by natural causes. If we are to make radical change quickly we will have to take account of the best way of managing the change. That would require taking account of the industrial relations implications. I expect that by the time I submit a further report during the year we will have made significant progress on those issues.

Chairman: A number of Deputies are interested in this matter. I will first call Deputy Doherty and Deputy Upton. Thereafter I will call Deputy Finucane, Deputy Ellis, Deputy McCormack, Deputy Batt O’Keeffe and Deputy Broughan. I now call on Deputy Doherty.

Deputy Doherty: I welcome Mr. Dalton to the Committee. What are the total savings recommended in the light of the Auditor’s report that are achievable or could be made, at least theoretically?

Mr. Dalton: The Auditor has given a figure of approximately £750,000. This may be a little conservative. We would put it closer to £1 million.

Deputy Doherty: This, to a large degree, is related to the garage on the one hand, the non use of vehicles that have been purchased on the other, and the fact that the use of Garda cars in routine duties are not, the report suggests, used to full advantage.

Mr. Dalton: This is a rough breakdown, because we have not been able to cost it adequately. The fuel side should make a saving of £100,000. The fact that cars are fitted by the suppliers should account for approximately £75,000. The replacing of drivers by civilians should account for approximately £250,000 and if the garage operation was substantially civilianised this, in itself, would account for approximately £500,000. This comes to £925,000, or somewhere around £1 million.

Deputy Doherty: In addition, there is the possibility that there could be other savings if specific changes were made. I imagine that there would be difficulties with transferring the fleet, with the exception, perhaps, of ministerial transport and other areas that would require security.

Mr. Dalton: Yes.

Deputy Doherty: On this basis, has the desirability of negotiating with the Army, which has a well equipped dimension to its operations, been considered? You could find it a possible option for dealing with Garda cars, at least in the security area, if not in its entirety.

Mr. Dalton: We have not done so. The Army operation is subject to some interest at present, so we have tended to focus on the commercial side. I may be wrong on this, but there are questions about Army operations generally by the Efficiency Audit Group. However, it is something we can look at.

Deputy Doherty: I raise it as a possible option, having regard to the difficulties that are peculiar to Garda transport. With regard to the use of Garda vehicles for the transportation of prisoners, do the figures include the use of taxis and the taking of prisoners to places of detention in various parts of the country?

Mr. Dalton: No. These are Garda cars.

Deputy Doherty: There is, therefore, an additional transport cost which is not included here, and is not commented upon. Is that correct?

Mr. Dalton: Yes.

Deputy Doherty: What would this amount to approximately?

Mr. Dalton: I do not have a figure, but I can- - - - -

Deputy Doherty: You may be able to obtain it.

Mr. Dalton: Prisoners are transported not only by taxis, but, depending on the purpose of the journey, also by prison vehicles. The cost element arises in that on the one hand, one may have prison officers and gardaí in the one car, whereas on the other hand, one may have a prisoner officer and a civilian. That is the issue.

Deputy Doherty: Has the option of leasing ever been looked at? It appears, on face value - I am not sure if I am correct in this - that to hold a Garda car for three years is a long period of time, having regard to its resale value.

Mr. Dalton: I understand this has been looked at. Perhaps the Department of Finance would comment on this.

Mr. Lenehan: We looked at this. It is not a runner. The leasing companies are making money on the cars. We looked at the matter both for this area and in respect of ministerial cars.

Deputy Doherty: It does not stand up.

Mr. Lenehan: It does not stand up.

Deputy Doherty: With regard to Garda transport, is there a rebate in the area of customs and excise, fuel and purchase of cars?

Mr. Dalton: We do better on the purchase of cars than you or I would.

Deputy Doherty: Are you exempted from VAT or excise?

Mr. Dalton: No. We get the cars cheaper because we buy in bulk.

Deputy Doherty: It appears a nonsense that the State should tax itself and engage in an administrative exercise.

Mr. Dalton: I do not know. It would have to be looked at. It may be more efficent and economical overall to work the system, rather than try to devise a special system in respect of Garda cars. While it looks like money going from one pocket to another, it may, as I say, be more efficient to operate it than change it - to leave that small hole in the pocket.

Deputy Doherty: On the one hand and on the other.

Mr. Dalton: Absolutely. We can assess the matter. I imagine that Revenue would have a view about changing the arrangements solely in respect of Garda cars.

Deputy Doherty: It would look and read well, and would keep the Department of Finance in good form. What is the percentage discount, or what is the variation between the various potential suppliers?

Mr. Dalton: It is approximately 20 per cent.

Deputy Doherty: There are 147 gardaí employed in the garage. This seems extraordinarily high. Is it necessary that a Chief Superintendent be there to manage to garage while you appear to have a fleet manager there in the role purely as an advisor?

Mr. Dalton: The Chief Superintendent has responsibility for more than the transport operation. He has other functions also. However, this is one of the issues we must look at. The Auditor has established that a fleet manager does not have executive functions, which is one of the issues that management will have to look at. If the management of transport became an independent function, it may be that somebody with the kind of skills held by the fleet manager would head it, rather than a Superintendent. Indeed, the Garda fleet manager might contract the services of the independent fleet manager. We are dealing with a structure that now needs to be radically overhauled.

Deputy Doherty: It represents a serious tying up of the time of qualified persons when we have a need for them elsewhere. Again, I take account of the security requirement that may be associated with certain types of transport. I also understand that there is no computerised system operating in the Garda garage.

Mr. Dalton: There is not a fleet management system. We have introduced computerisation of stores, which has greatly improved the situation.

Deputy Doherty: This was as a result of deliberations by the Committee.

Mr. Dalton: It was. We are now working on an entire fleet management system which would deal with matters such as purchases, assessing the cost of cars over a certain period, identifying typical faults in specific models and generally with whole car histories. We are at the point of going to the Department of Finance to place a contract for this. This system, including computerisation, would cost approximately £70,000. It is the price of three or four cars and given that we are considering a potential saving of £1 million per year, it is worth looking at.

Deputy Doherty: Would it be intended to have included in that system the logs of all cars and all divisions throughout the country?

Mr. Dalton: Yes.

Deputy Doherty: You are able to have it on an updated basis?

Mr. Dalton: Everything would be inputted and therefore kept up to date.

Deputy Upton: I agree with the Accounting Officer in that the best thing to do is to look forward. You mention that there are charges of £1 million to be saved. Can you provide an idea of when you expect this to be attained?

Mr. Dalton: Some aspects of it will be attained more quickly than others. We have the new fuel purchase system virtually in place, which will save £100,000; the fitting of cars will be almost immediate, which saves £75,000; making the total £175,000; the two other items - the replacement of drivers and the operation of the garage - come to £750,000. Achieving the £750,000 saving depends on a number of items I already mentioned; whether we can civilianise under the new Government restrictions on public service numbers and whether doing it quickly represents a more effective management of the change. The unions concerned - who are represented in the room - will have a strong interest in this.

Deputy Upton: It is entirely right that they would be—

Mr. Dalton: Absolutely, I agree.

Deputy Upton: —and that their point of view would be fully taken into account. Can Mr. Dalton give an idea of the industrial relations dimension of this matter?

Mr. Dalton: We are talking about a number of men - who are in their late thirties in the case of the gardaí and in their late forties in the case of sergeants - who have acted as mechanics all their lives and been recruited as mechanics in many cases; that is where their skills are. They could be transferred to duties with which they are unfamiliar at this stage in their careers, for which they have no experience. Any trade union or association dealing with such a situation would naturally have an interest and would possibly be resistant unless the new conditions were acceptable. I think that is the kind of area they will be interested in; I do not know because I have not had any representations from them but I expect I will now.

Deputy Upton: When these people joined the force, would they have had a reasonable expectation that they would work out the rest of their careers as mechanics in the garage?

Mr. Dalton: I think they would have. The garage has been reduced significantly over the years. In 1990 there were 47 people in the garage, it is now down to 28.

Deputy Upton: Were these people recruited because of their skills as mechanics?

Mr. Dalton: They would have been recruited as mechanics, yes.

Deputy Upton: Rather than as ordinary gardaí recruited as gardaí who went into the garage?

Mr. Dalton: They are recruited in a somewhat similar way to musicians in the Garda Band — they come in as mechanics or musicians respectively. There may have been a few in the past who transferred into the garage, having entered the Garda as qualified mechanics, but by and large they were recruited as mechanics.

Deputy Upton: Can Mr. Dalton give an idea of the security dimensions of their work and the extent to which he would estimate gardaí would still be needed in that area for security reasons? In other words, what is the minimum number of Gardaí who should be involved in car maintenance and management for security reasons?

Mr. Dalton: That is one of the issues being looked at. There is evidence that one needs to be careful about the way in which one deals with certain cars in the depot. We had evidence in the past - I do not want to go into details - but people have been injured. Therefore there is a security dimension to it. How many gardaí or sergeants would be needed I do not know at this point but my suspicion is that it would be significantly less than the number of people now in the garage. There is also the argument that there is no special reason why a civilian can not handle security work. Officials in the Department of Justice are not gardaí and we deal with security all the time.

Deputy Upton: Mr. Dalton mentioned systems for detecting car faults by computer. Is it reasonable to suggest that this information is widely available anyway? In other words, any mechanic or well-informed lay person could say a particular car had problems with its gearbox, its transmission, etc. Some cars have problems associated with them or that occur widely.

Mr. Dalton: Yes, but we feel it is better to rely on total life information for 1,500 vehicles rather than individual views like that. Not everyone would have the same use of vehicles as gardaí — the high mileage, the general use, the speed, etc. We think it is much more secure to rely on the information from total life experience, because a car which might do well in the commercial world or privately would not necessarily survive in the Garda fleet and some cars which are less glamorous might do well. We think it is best to get the scientific evidence of how they perform.

Deputy Upton: I am sure there is need for expertise in the Garda on matters mechanical in relation to road accidents, etc. To what extent is there an interaction between the Garda maintenance unit and the wider need for expertise on matters mechanical and Garda cars? In other words, when cars crash through brake failure or for whatever reason, there must be a wider dimension to that area. Does the unit in the Phoenix Park interact with the various experts in the Garda on those issues?

Mr. Dalton: I do not think they are part of the garage operation - I think they would be dealt with by public service vehicle inspectors. As to the extent to which people in the Garda would be consulted on these issues, I would have to come back to you on that. I think it is the PSV inspectors who look after that.

Deputy Upton: Is there scope for interaction between the PSV unit and the people in the Park?

Mr. Dalton: I would expect so - these are all expert mechanics and I would presume that if one wanted advice about something which happened and one was not clear about it, they would be the people to go to. However, I do not know the extent to which it happens.

Deputy Upton: Would that aspect provide an industrial relations solution to the problem?

Mr. Dalton: It may well do.

Deputy Ellis: We welcome the fact that Mr. Dalton has come here and bared his soul in stating that there were certain items in the report which could not be defended. That is the accepted position of us all but we can only look to go forward rather than backwards. In view of the fact that some companies now offer 60,000 mile warranties on vehicles purchased, does he feel this could be the way to go, so as to take all the maintenance, bar routine tasks, out of the Garda garage? It could be part of the tendering process in future that all suppliers would be responsible for the maintenance.

Mr. Dalton: That is a possibility. The Garda operation also benefits from the warranties attached to cars. We are talking, in my understanding, of difficulties arising outside of warranty. As to the question about moving all maintenance and repairs out of the Garda area, that is a civilianisation issue which, as I say, we are looking at and which we have to assess.

Deputy Ellis: The second part of my question is: would it not be possible that the people who would be displaced from the Garda garage could do Garda driving work, as it appears there are a number of driving positions within Garda operations which are not security related?

Mr. Dalton: Yes, but that is also very expensive and the Comptroller and Auditor General has identified that as a problem area. What he said - and what we had concluded ourselves and started to address - is that some driving duties should also be done by civilians, so there would not necessarily be room immediately for people transferring from the garage. It is an option to use mechanics in work which is in some way related to their background, rather than putting them into work which is totally unrelated, such as ballistics. That is part of proper management of change; we would try as best we can to manage the change in such a way as to be acceptable to the people concerned and save money at the same time.

Deputy Ellis: Yes, that is the one thing no one here wants, that someone’s income drops overnight because of action taken by someone who may not be directly affected. With regard to the 100,000 mile target for the lifetime of cars, what does Mr. Dalton think the effect would be if the target was reduced to 60,000 miles? This refers back to what I said earlier — the Garda will not be responsible for major repairs if the vehicles are disposed of at that stage and the resale would be much higher than it would be at 100,000 miles.

Mr. Dalton: With questions like that, there is no substitute for someone with operations research experience to look at them. What would occur to me is that while we might save on maintenance there are high capital costs also.

Deputy Ellis: There is a high resale value, though—

Mr. Dalton: There is.

Deputy Ellis: There is a difference of £4,000 in the resale value of a car with 60,000 miles vis-à-vis one with 100,000 miles.

Mr. Dalton: That is something that we could look at. The Department of Finance has examined some of these issues in the past.

Mr. Lenehan: Some years ago we looked at replacement policies. It is a question of balancing the lower depreciation against the higher maintenance costs. You should not just have a bald figure of 100,000 miles because it is related to the age of the vehicle as well as the mileage. If it is worth your while to sell the car it is not worth someone else’s while to buy it. Generally, there is not much to be gained between changing at 60,000 or 100,000 miles. The overall saving is pretty minimal. You get a very flat curve.

Deputy Ellis: The overall saving on an average private car is £4,000. If it is a TD’s car it is actually more because, like Garda cars, they do not have a great reputation.

Mr. Lenehan: I am sorry. However, if you buy the car for £15,000 and keep it for two years you will have to pay £7,000 to change it.

Deputy Ellis: No. The average price of changing that private car is about £3,500 to £4,000 maximum.

Mr. Lenehan: With a mileage of 60,000 it might not be.

Deputy Ellis: But you are talking about what you told us.

Mr. Lenehan: Even accepting your figure whereby we change it every two years at a cost of £2,000 a year, if you were to change it every four years it will not cost you £2,000 a year.

Deputy Ellis: If you change it at four years?

Mr. Lenehan: It is not going to cost you £2,000 a year because the car loses most of its value in the first year.

Deputy Ellis: Yes, but we are talking at cross purposes here. Is there a possibility of putting in a system that will show the point at which a car is at its highest value vis-à-vis its total overall life span?

Mr. Dalton: I think it would help us. Now that you have raised the specific question about possibly changing it at around 60,000 miles instead of 100,000, I am sure that is something we could cost to give you an idea of what is involved. When the computer system has been working for about a year it will provide the best guide to the future. You might find that selling a car with 60,000 miles after two years is the optimum time but a bigger car might sell better at a later stage. I do not know. We will have to get the raw data and see what is best.

Deputy Ellis: I take it that the new computer system you propose to install will be able to provide that sort of information.

Mr. Dalton: It will, yes. It will be highly flexible. We are not writing the system. Fleet management packages are available which we will use.

Deputy Ellis: You are buying a package?

Mr. Dalton: Yes.

Deputy Ellis: Can you modify that to supply specific detail? Because of road conditions in some parts of the country cars may take much more abuse than cars in Dublin which would have different sorts of mechanical problems.

Mr. Dalton: We would adjust for that but my understanding is that it will not be a major cost adjustment. The package we are buying will be very flexible.

Deputy Ellis: With regard to fitting out cars, you state that companies supplying them will be responsible. Do you feel that is the proper way to go about some of the detail that is placed in Garda cars, that that should be available to some of the companies that are fitting out? I am talking about Garda markings and signs. I am not talking about the installation of radio equipment because anyone can do that. The specific markings should not be made available other than to direct security sources.

Mr. Dalton: If we had any doubt at all that this would be abused—

Deputy Ellis: I am not suggesting that. I am just saying that it is open there.

Mr. Dalton: The only reason we are doing it is that it is very expensive. It costs a lot of money in overtime. It takes about eight hours to do each car. It costs about £600 or £700 to do it. If you can get that supplied for something less than £100 it seems to me to be consistent with the whole drift of what the Comptroller and Auditor General is saying, and that you would avail of that option.

Deputy Ellis: Of course, if it is costing you that. But you stated that it is costing you £600 to £800 for eight hours work on the car.

Mr. Dalton: No. It costs about £600 to do the work on the car.

Deputy Ellis: But does that include the labour and parts?

Mr. Dalton: That includes the lot.

Deputy Ellis: You are now stating that that will be done by the suppliers for £100?

Mr. Dalton: My understanding is that it will be done for £100, yes.

Deputy Ellis: But where does the other £500 arise? I do not think Garda mechanics are so highly paid that the other £500 is going to them for eight hours work.

Mr. Dalton: Our understanding is that, generally speaking, the work can be done a lot faster and cheaper by the manufacturers. The markings themselves are not what costs money, it is the labour content.

Deputy Ellis: It seems funny that there is that discrepancy from what you state is eight hours work in the garage.

Mr. Dalton: It is done on overtime, that is the problem.

Deputy Ellis: You are paying that sort of money, £60 to £70 an hour?

Mr. Dalton: £75 an hour is the figure that the Comptroller and Auditor General has established as being the cost. In fact, I think he said £84 an hour if you cost it in a different way. It is about £75 an hour. There is a chargeout cost of £29 an hour which has been used up to now. The Comptroller and Auditor General has made the point that this cost——

Deputy Ellis: Yes, the labour charges rate is insufficient to absorb the labour costs in overheads of the garage - an estimated rate of £74 per hour.

Mr. Dalton: That is it.

Deputy Ellis: So that is the cost at the moment?

Mr. Dalton: That is the cost, yes.

Deputy Ellis: But that also means that the salaries of senior supervisors - from the Chief Superintendent who is responsible for the transport office to everything else - are being charged into it.

Mr. Dalton: The Comptroller and Auditor General is best placed to deal with this because he has worked out the costs. My understanding is that he took the whole cost of the Garda public garage operations and from that worked out an hourly cost of jobs.

Deputy Ellis: Of £74?

Mr. Dalton: That is right. That compares to a figure of about £20 to £25 in commercial garages. That is the figure we have got and I am not aware of any basis for disputing it at this time. Maybe others would have a basis for disputing it. Maybe the Comptroller and Auditor General who came up with the figure might be able to explain its origins.

Deputy Ellis: We take it that when you come back to us you will have assessed the optimum point of disposal for all Garda cars. When you go to sell them you will then be in a position to say that these cars have done x amount of miles, rather than the suspicion that arises with a lot of people at Garda auctions that they could have miles plus. I am not saying that it is like the old days when the speedometers rewound after 100,000 miles, so it was a case of how many 100,000 miles were on it prior to sale.

Mr. Dalton: The Garda would never do that, Chairman.

Deputy Ellis: I am not saying that it would be done deliberately, no way. That would be wrong.

Chairman: I will ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to deal with the points raised there.

Mr. Purcell: Only the costs of the 35 Garda personnel directly involved in the operations have been factored into the chargeout rate. They comprise nine Garda Sergeants, 22 Garda mechanics and four Garda. As the Accounting Officer said, in the prevailing labour chargeout rate things like overtime were not being included and neither was the cost of the stores function which would be taken into account in a commercial garage’s chargeout rate. We are trying to compare like with like.

Deputy Broughan: On a point of information, can the Comptroller and Auditor General tell us if the auditors compared the Garda fleet’s maintenance costs with, for example, those of a transport company that would have a similar sized fleet of cars and vans?

Mr. Purcell: We certainly made the comparison on the basis of information supplied to us by the Garda Síochána, whose personnel were very co-operative in this exercise as were those of the Department of Justice. We got figures from a similar sized police force in the UK. We also made comparisons against norms and standards which have been promulgated over there by the audit commission and which have been attained by one quarter of the police forces in the UK.

Deputy Broughan: We seem to be comparing this with a foreign police force and with a local garage or main dealer. Would it not be fairer to compare it with a transport fleet, of which we have many, and the systems and costings they use? I presume their costings would be greater than those in this report.

Mr. Purcell: Apart from the obvious difficulties of going to a private company and getting details of their costings, etc., we took the standard maximum times for particular jobs which are recommended by the Society of Automotive Engineers. We compared those with a sample of the jobs carried out in the Garda garage and we found they did not bear up well. As I said, we also compared the general labour rate charge in garages with that. The comparisons are fair. One must know when to stop when carrying out comparisons and so on. The Department of Justice and the Garda management felt that what we did was fair.

Deputy Broughan: If we are thinking in terms of commercialisation or privatisation, surely the obvious comparison would be with a commercial enterprise which uses a lot of vehicles? You have not done that in this report.

Mr. Purcell: That is true. However, I am not sure that a large commercial enterprise would allow the State Auditor to be privy to the details of its costs, profit margins, etc., knowing that it would come to light in a public document and then at a meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts where Members of the press are present and that it would invariably find its way into media reports.

Deputy Broughan: You compared the operational costs of hospitals outside the public sector. Company accounts would have provided information relevant to this. I am not denying a discrepancy, but the information is incomplete. I accept what you say about the future. The comparison may not be severe. I have little experience of transport companies, but there are parallels with Garda operations and the life span of cars. We are only starting to look at this area, but the report’s methodology is incomplete.

Mr. Purcell: I defend the methodology. In my experience of carrying out value for money examinations one must always draw the line somewhere in terms of the time spent on it and the type of analysis done. One must carry out a sufficient examination to justify the findings. There is a significant difference in the case of hospitals because voluntary hospitals get a lot of their money from the State and we also have an inspection right for those hospitals. We have no such rights in relation to the private sector. It is not a valid comparison.

Mr. Dalton: We have thought about this issue. Deputy Broughan has put his finger on something which might be worth considering. The organisation I thought about is An Post which has approximately the same number of vehicles as the Garda. Although they have different usage and they do not get the same rough treatment which Garda cars sometimes get, it might be worthwhile for the Committee to look at comparative figures in An Post to see if they compare with the type of commercial figures quoted, for example £20 or £25 an hour. It might help us in the long term and the Committee and the public, who are concerned about the costs, to have such a database.

Deputy Finucane: Do you, Mr. Dalton, usually wait for reports from the Comptroller and Auditor General before reacting to possible savings he recommends? Is there a section in the Department of Justice which reviews its standards of performance, particularly in relation to Garda transport, in order to achieve efficiencies? Do you not regard it as a serious reflection on the efficiency of the Department of Justice that the Comptroller and Auditor General has made different observations in his report and suggested that approximately £750,000 could be saved?

Mr. Dalton: We do not wait for anyone before we look at the efficiency of our operations. We do not see everything, but we change a lot which never comes to the attention of this Committee because it is changed and made efficient before anyone else looks at it. I would need to get examples to address that question at length. We have made changes in prisons and in other areas for better efficiency. I accept that we did not have an internal audit unit until some time last year. I cannot explain why that happened in the public service, but most Departments did not have internal audit units. One of the benefits of the work of the Committee of Public Accounts is that Departments have been brought to create such units.

The same was probably true of the commercial world and the private sector for many years. Large companies in the private sector did not have internal audit units. Now that we have an internal audit unit we are picking up things which will not trouble the Committee because we are getting them on time. We do not wait for advice. No one, for example, advised us on the issue of towing. We made changes in the garage operations without advice over the years. For example, we reduced the number of mechanics in the garage by half. That was a response to what we perceived as an inefficient operation. We do not always wait.

Deputy Finucane: What are the historical reasons for basing mechanics exclusively in the Dublin urban area when the work is carried out in commercial garages in other parts of the country?

Mr. Dalton: Most of the cars which must be dealt with at the garage or that people perceive should be dealt with at the garage for security reasons are in Dublin. For example, the view is that the garage should be located where the Emergency Response Unit cars, the major Special Branch units and the ministerial fleet cars are based. While there are Special Branch cars, etc. outside Dublin, it is recognised, over the years, it was safe to deal with some of these commercially. Dublin tends to be the centre for main specialist and operational units. That is where most of the cars are, which need secure treatment.

Deputy Finucane: While I recognise that you cannot change this status overnight, you indicated that you had already scaled down the number of mechanics. There are 22 mechanics to seven supervisory sergeants. Have you reduced the number of sergeants? When this is compared with other commercial garages which employ approximately 30 people, there appears to be a high level of supervision. Do you agree with that observation?

Mr. Dalton: I do.

Deputy Finucane: Are you doing something about it?

Mr. Dalton: When I said the number of people in the garage fell, there was a drop in the number of sergeants too but, as far as I know, the number of supervisory posts in the sergeant grades did not fall as swiftly as the number of gardaí.

The figures are a little misleading in that it is not the case that all seven sergeants are actually working in the garage. There are only four. It is still a high ratio: four to twenty-two. The others are in stores and in other aspects of the garage operation. On the basis of my knowledge of what you see when you go into a garage, I would accept that it seems to be a fairly high ratio and that it needs to be examined.

Deputy Finucane: Recognising that and from the point of view of it being scaled down, what is the age profile of sergeants and gardaí in the garages?

Mr. Dalton: There are three sergeants between the ages of 45 and 50 and three more over 50 years of age so all the sergeants are over 45 years of age. Twelve of the gardaí are between the ages of 35 and 40, the rest are over 40 years of age and two of whom are over 50 years of age.

Deputy Finucane: If a sergeant was facing retirement in the near future, would it look at present as if the Department was not intending to replace a sergeant because of what I stated?

Mr. Dalton: We have replaced nobody and have recruited nobody to the garage since 1983.

Deputy Finucane: I found interesting the observation with regard to motorcycles, their cost, the scaling back of the number of motorbikes and opting for vans. Mr. Dalton is probably aware of the amount of concern in rural Ireland nowadays about the availability of gardaí and, indeed, of the Garda travelling around and covering an area with a van. In my constituency in Limerick, it requires a battle to acquire even a Garda van for a specific division. They are often divided between different areas so an area can get what amounts to half a van, if Mr. Dalton knows what I mean.

Mr. Dalton: I do.

Deputy Finucane: Would he not think in the present climate where there is extreme concern - particularly in rural Ireland and I will not elaborate because it has been highlighted enough - that the objective of having half a van in an area should disappear Rather than argue over wide geographical areas in that type of situation, would your objective in reducing the number of motorbikes and scaling up the number of vans be to achieve a greater degree of penetration in order to combat lawlessness which might exist and concern in the rural communities? In addition, while there would usually be a consciousness of a van in an area, a motorbike is inclined to announce itself long before it arrives in an area and a Garda motorcycle is both conspicuous and noisy. If gardaí are circulating in rural areas, it counteracts the fears of people.

Mr. Dalton: There is a much wider question here than just vans versus motorcycles. The Deputy is also raising the issue of the adequacy of policing in rural areas which, I presume, we will be addressing again in a fortnights time. On that, we would depend substantially on the advice of the Garda Commissioner as to what is required. That determines the overall number of vehicles in the fleet to a large extent. If we are to increase the number of vehicles in order to provide a van, for example, for each and every area - or in order not to have half-vans, as the Deputy put it - then we would have to increase the overall size of the fleet and that would cost money. We would take the advice of the Garda as to whether or not that was necessary.

The other question the Deputy raised about replacing vans with motorcycles —

Deputy Finucane: No, replacing motorcycles with vans.

Mr. Dalton: — I am sorry. On replacing motorcycles with vans, the argument made to me in its favour is that not only are the vans a lot cheaper but they are better vehicles to use in the context of rural policing. I do not know. The gardaí are best placed to argue the case for that but the theory behind it is that we can use the money more effectively to make vans available for rural policing.

Deputy Finucane: Why has there been resistance at local district level to the policy of replacing one motorcycle with two vans because anybody listening objectively to what I said would see a lot of logic in replacing one motorcycle with two vans, assuming the two vans were used in the work I spoke about?

Mr. Dalton: I am not aware of the basis for the resistance to it.

Deputy Finucane: Why has the utilisation of it been resisted?

Mr. Dalton: I do not know, Chairman. I will have to try to get that information of the Committee.

Deputy McCormack: I suppose half a van is better than no bread.

I have two questions. First, has the towing of vehicles, i.e. the recovery service, gone to tender yet? I noticed Mr. Dalton said he was not aware of this. I made representations at least one year ago on this topic, I have a note of it on file and had correspondence with the Garda authorities on the matter.

Mr. Dalton: I understand the documents are ready but it has not gone to tender.

Deputy McCormack: Will it include the recovery of civilian vehicles that would be traffic hazards, etc.? Will that also be given out to tender rather than handled by the Garda?

Mr. Dalton: I will have to check that for the Committee.

Deputy McCormack: I would be concerned about that because Mr. Dalton spoke about the hole in the pocket and the small hole in the pocket. I would be concerned that no matter how small the hole in the pocket was, it is a dangerous thing to have any kind of a hole in your pocket.

Second, what progress has been made on the issue of fuel for Garda cars purchased from local retailers compared to a national contract?

Mr. Dalton: As I said, we have decided to accept that recommendation. We have drawn up a tender document which is almost finalised. We hope to advertise the contract in the EU journal shortly. When I say shortly, I am talking about a matter of weeks not months. Then it will be a matter of people tendering. I do not have the figures for the switch from diesel to petrol which is another relevant issue in all of this which we have not addressed. From recollection, there is a greater proportion of diesel used in the force too as a means of reducing costs.

Deputy McCormack: What saving will be incurred there?

Mr. Dalton: In relation to the fuel, the estimate is £100,000 per annum.

Deputy McCormack: This, again, is a matter about which I had been in continuous correspondence with the Garda authorities. Although we are encouraged not to look back, the system which existed was an inadequate one. People in local towns tendered every three, four or five years on the basis of the pump price on that day minus a certain amount and the person that tendered the largest reduction got the tender. For the next five years, he did not have to charge the recommended pump price. He charged any price he liked at the pump. Every time a Garda car pulled up and bought £20 worth of petrol, it was £20 worth as recorded on the pump and the petrol station was paid at the end of the month. The system was open to serious abuse. I am delighted the Department is seeing the light from the point of view of having a different tender system. I hope it will not be based on the old system, which accepted the tender as the pump price minus a certain amount. That person would then get the tender and there would be no subsequent check over the continuing years on whether the price charged on that pump was the same as the recommended price or that being charged on similar pumps in the same town.

Mr. Dalton: We will be monitoring this matter carefully. I expect each Member to face some pressure on this. It may very well be that when we have centralised purchasing and a tighter deal, some of the people currently holding contracts will not get them. I have no doubt Members will have people trotting to them and that I will be receiving letters about changing back to the old system. Members will also come under pressure if we introduce a more efficient system and people holding contracts up to now may lose them.

Deputy McCormack: Do not worry, Mr. Dalton. We will be well able to sustain that.

Mr. Dalton: I expect you would.

Deputy McCormack: In this day and age, I fail to understand the idea of having qualified gardaí and sergeants working as mechanics, panel beaters etc. and the resistance and difficulty the Department is having in changing that system. It should be abandoned quickly. If those people were recruited for their skills as mechanics etc, how does a person at that level get to be a sergeant? Is it because he is a better mechanic or a better garda?

Mr. Dalton: We will change the system as quickly as we can but sometimes that is not the best way of doing it as far as the State is concerned. If one gets substantial trade union resistance to it and gets the whole operation closed down, then I would be criticised for not doing it more intelligently. We have to do it in the most cost effective way for the State - that comes close to meeting the concerns which we will inevitably meet if one suddenly tried to civilianise an area as large as this - and we have to take account of what the Garda Associations will say. They will certainly have observations to make on this matter, which is why changing it by diktat would not work in this instance.

I do not know off hand how gardaí get promoted to sergeant. I would have to see the criteria used by individual boards.

Deputy McCormack: The question I asked was whether the seven sergeants working in the Garda garage division are solely attached to it?

Mr. Dalton: They are, yes.

Deputy McCormack: Do they get promoted from garda to sergeant in that area?

Mr. Dalton: Yes. they are in that transport stream. One does not move out of it that easily into other areas.

Deputy McCormack: I would be interested in the answer to that question.

Deputy Broughan: A vote in the Committee is taking place next door and a number of us are Members of that as well. Could we adjourn this Committee for a few minutes?

Deputy N. O’Keeffe: I also have to vote.

Deputy Broughan: We have to go, Sir.

Chairman: I will let you go when the bell stops, Deputy. How long do you want us to adjourn?

Deputy Broughan: For about three to four minutes.

Thank you, Sir.

Since we do not have any profile of the life cost of the vehicles used, how can we make an informed choice of what makes of cars, vans and motorcycles to buy when procuring vehicles for the Garda? The Department seems to buy one particular brand.

Mr. Dalton: We rely on the Government Supplies Agency for this. The Garda specify what it wants in a car and the GSA effectively takes it from there.

Deputy Broughan: The Department has no information on the performance of any cars or vehicles the Garda requested in the past. Therefore, how can the Department make an informed choice to get the best value for money and best possible vehicles for the taxpayer? The Department has no information or records. For example, some people decided to try to balance out matters after stocktaking, which is phoney stocktaking.

(Sitting suspended at 12.27 p.m. and resumed at 12.30 p.m.)

Deputy Broughan: I asked a question before I went out, Chairman.

Chairman: You might repeat it.

Mr. Dalton: I am happy to take that question, Chairman. It would not be true to say that there are no records. The Auditor will confirm that we have a plethora of records; but we have problems accessing them. We do not have the same kind of access to them as you would have with a computerised system. In regard to buying cars, the Garda are probably much better equipped than most people, because not only have they detailed records - admittedly not as structured or accessible as we want - they also have the advice of the professional fleet manager and of mechanics who are dealing with these cars. All that advice is available and would be known to the barrack master in specifying what the Garda require, but it is not very structured. With a computer the system is absolutely scientific; none of it is anecdotal. There is a lot of advice available before they purchase, although this advice is not scientific.

Deputy Broughan: What is the major make of cars, for example, that you would have purchased in 1995?

Mr. Dalton: What makes?

Deputy Broughan: By percentage, yes.

Mr. Dalton: I can tell you how many were cars and how many were motorbikes and so on, but I cannot tell you right now how many of them, for example, were Camrys. I can get those figures for you.

Deputy Broughan: Would you know what makes were used in 1990, for example?

Mr. Dalton: I could get that information. I know that certain cars had very substantial reputations and when the new models came out reputations sometimes disimproved. Everybody has that experience, but a few cars were proverbial as reliable police cars. I do not want to mention any names in case I exclude others which were known to be reliable, but we will get you the information.

Deputy Broughan: You would agree that it is important information? You still have not given us any picture of costs, of performance of different models and types of cars and therefore it is difficult to assess the performance of the whole transport area.

Mr. Dalton: I agree. It is not as scientific as we would like it to be, but it is not totally devoid of value on that account. The purpose of computerisation is to make it more scientific.

Deputy Broughan: Some of my colleagues may have raised this point before I arrived, but why does it take so long to get the new purchase on the road?

Mr. Dalton: Inefficient practices between the various organisations meant that it was taking too long to specify requirements. The Department of Justice was only involved in it at the end, in the sense of basically authorising the purchase. The good news on that is that we have now reorganised that system with the result that the cars will be available four to five months earlier than they were up to now, and that is reckoned to be about as good as we can get it. Delivery of the cars will also be staggered over the year rather than having a bulk delivery which would sit in the depot for a long time. That area has been attended to in the way in which the Auditor expected it to be.

Deputy Broughan: I wish to make one last point about the types of car. What percentage of cars and vans are in the Dublin metropolitan district?

Mr. Dalton: I think around 700 cars are dealt with at the Depot. In January 1995 there were 720 cars in country divisions, 747 in the DMA, that is about half the cars.

Deputy Broughan: Does the Dublin contingent include all Ministerial cars?

Mr. Dalton: Yes.

Deputy Broughan: One of the things the Comptroller and Auditor General identifies in maintaining control of the garage and the whole area is the swift turnover of the Chief Superintendent, the transport officer. Can anything be done about that? Deputies have found, in recent years, that this has been one of the difficulties in the Dublin area. There seems to be a very fast turnover of senior personnel. We are talking specifically about the whole area of Garda transport. It seems to be difficult to have continuity and management objectives if there is a lot of chopping and changing.

Mr. Dalton: The management objectives will be set and will stand irrespective of who is holding the job, but we accept that a very high turnover rate at the top is not ideal. We agree with the Auditor that there is a lot of merit in having an independent transport facility which would be headed up by either the Chief Superintendent or a professional transport manager. We are certainly heading in that direction.

Deputy Broughan: You expect to make further improvements or allow people get to grips with the system. Could somebody from general policing take charge of this area?

Mr. Dalton: Yes, that is correct. We have a professional manager who was recruited from the private sector but his function is to be reviewed because he does not have executive functions and we accept that the structure at the garage and the transport operation is unsatisfactory. That is one of the specific issues which the committee I mentioned is working on and on which I would hope to have progress to report when I come back to the Committee on this.

Deputy Broughan: Vans and cycles were not in use 45 per cent of the time. What proposals have you for their best possible utilisation?

Mr. Dalton: It does not necessarily follow that the extent to which a vehicle is being used is the measure of efficiency. At a road block, for example, one may need a car which sits there all day not being used but still necessary. One has to set the usage in context. This may be anecdotal, but I understand that in a police force where they set usage criteria, motorbikes were placed on blocks and the wheels turned to prove the motorbikes were being used. We would not want that to happen here. Although a motorbike may not be in constant use all day it may be necessary to have it around.

Deputy Broughan: Have you any targets for utilisation?

Mr. Dalton: Models are being developed.

Deputy Broughan: With regard to community policing, which has been quite successful in Dublin, are there any bicycles in use?

Mr. Dalton: I have seen police on bicycles, although I do not know how many there are.

Deputy Broughan: Would you consider it a good idea to have more police on bicycles?

Mr. Dalton: I think there is merit in it but I have not done an assessment of it.

Deputy Broughan: A couple of generations ago the police on their bikes got to know everybody - Flann O’Brien wrote about it. Community policing is an area the Department needs to work on generally. It is interesting that we do not even know if we have any bikes.

Mr. Dalton: Unfortunately, it is a different world now from the world of Flann O’Brien.

(Sitting suspended at 12.45 p.m. and resumed at 12.50 p.m.)

Deputy N. O’Keeffe: I take it that all petrol purchased has to be certified by the purchasing gardaí. I heard you mention tendering for petrol. There are security issues involved: the petrol could be adulterated, for example. What safeguards will be put in place for the tendering system that might protect the petrol supplied?

Mr. Dalton: With regard to the possibility of fiddling the bills, I think the same arrangements will apply for the Garda as anywhere else. We do not have any evidence that this happens and we would act immediately if we thought that it had happened. I do not know if it has occurred. However, the same action would be taken as would be taken if it happened in An Post or anywhere else - it would be an immediate serious disciplinary issue. We take advice on checks on these matters from our own internal audit unit, the Finance Officer - who is with me today - and from any regulations laid down by the Department of Finance. I have not addressed it as an issue because we have not had any difficulty of that nature with the Garda.

The possibility of getting adulterated petrol is a control issue and I do not have any evidence that that is the case. We would take that extremely seriously and the contract would be immediately removed if anything like that happened.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe: You are talking about tendering but I understand that heretofore the agency which sold the fuel was nominated by the security department. When one puts something out to tender one normally goes for the lowest price so the floodgates will be opened to anyone who wants to tender. You are dealing with a security business here.

Mr. Dalton: Perhaps I should clarify what we are talking about. We already have a situation where upwards of 40 per cent of Garda fuel is supplied on a tender basis to tanks around the country. We are talking about the remaining 60 per cent of fuel which is now purchased at local garages. Some Superintendents do a deal on the price with the local garage but other Superintendents have not done so.

We are now talking about contracting centrally with some of the major companies - I do not wish to name any companies - which have outlets around the country. The same basic arrangement as heretofore would apply as far as a garda was concerned. He would call to a pump - probably with a card - and the data would be sent to the central body. He would use the same pump as any member of the public but his bills would be dealt with centrally by whatever major company is involved. I do not think that the supplier would supply adulterated petrol because everybody would be using the same pumps. It is a central deal with the major suppliers rather than deals made with local garages.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe: Are cars purchased on a tendering basis? Could you give me a breakdown of the model sizes in terms of cc’s or horsepower? Are all the cars basic models or do you go for de luxe or top of the range models?

Mr. Dalton: There is a huge variety. It might be better to give you the list rather than reading them all out. They range from 1200cc to 3000cc. I have a table of the purchases this year.

Chairman: Would it be possible to circulate that?

Mr. Dalton: It might be more convenient if I gave a breakdown of the vehicles - the table includes prices which I do not think are settled yet. Generally speaking, the range is from 1200cc to 3000cc.

Chairman: There is a summary on page 19 of the report.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe: A 3000cc car is a very exclusive model. Many citizens in this country do not drive that type of model - the usual range is from 1600cc to 2000cc.

Mr. Dalton: Some of those would be used for high speed chases. Some of the Ministerial cars are around that level. There is an Omega which is around that level. We also have quite high powered cars so as to be able to keep up with cars of that calibre.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe: I travel the length and breadth of the country and I do not see many high powered security cars. Every citizen has difficulties with the speed limits.

Mr. Dalton: Some of the criminals drive cars of that calibre and we need cars which are capable of catching them. Some of the specialised units such as the Emergency Response Unit need them.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe: You mentioned an Opel Omega 3000. Is that a Ministerial car?

Mr. Dalton: I think it is; I am not certain.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe: Which Department has that car?

Mr. Dalton: I do not know offhand.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe: Could you find out?

Mr. Dalton: I probably could.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe: That is a very high powered car in the Opel range.

Deputy Broughan: That was probably Albert’s car.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe: We will find out in a minute. There is quite a number of cars in the Ministerial fleet. How often are those cars changed and what is their average mileage?

Mr. Dalton: Generally every two years. The whole business of ministerial cars was the subject of a separate report which is still being considered by the Government. I did not think that I would be able to deal with that report today because it is with the Government at the moment. It is worth considering that sometimes high powered cars such as the Opel Omega can be cheaper than low powered Mercedes, which I think was the case in this instance.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe: How many Ministers of State have State cars?

Mr. Dalton: They do not have State cars but use their own cars. There is a new arrangement for Ministers of State whereby they are paid allowances for the use of their private cars.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe: Appendix A of the report on Garda transport states “Fourteen cars are assigned to Government Ministers, including one car to the Minister of State to the Government”.

Mr. Dalton: That is right - there is one.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe: I am not referring to the Chief Whip who is practically part of the Cabinet but to the Minister of State. I am trying to find out where taxpayers’ money is being wasted.

Mr. Dalton: I do not know about Ministerial cars. I did not come here expecting that the use of Ministerial cars would be represented as waste. I am not aware of that argument.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe: It is all part of Garda transport for security reasons and comes under the remit of the Committee on Public Accounts.

Mr. Dalton: I accept that.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe: I want to know who has a car and the cost.

Mr. Dalton: My information is that all Ministers have cars and practically all Ministers of State do not. However, I think that one or two Ministers of State have.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe: Are they in high risk Departments?

Mr. Dalton: It is not based on that. The only way I can deal with this is to come back to you with an account of who has what.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe: It is at your discretion who gets a car.

Mr. Dalton: It is not at my discretion.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe: There must be some reason why a Minister of State got a car because a decision was taken some years ago by the Garret FitzGerald Government that Ministers of State would have to use their private cars with drivers paid for by the State. I thought that that was strictly adhered to. However, I now find out that favouritism is being shown and Democratic Left have a State car because the Labour Party and Fine Gael have to dance to their tune.

Mr. Dalton: I could not possibly comment on that as it is a political issue.

Chairman: I ask the Deputy to conclude.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe: I am very concerned about that. If there is no security risk it is a terrible state of affairs if the rules are bent for one or two Ministers of State.

Chairman: That is for another forum.

Deputy Broughan: There is an extra Minister at the Cabinet table.

Chairman: There is.

Deputy Broughan: In relation to insurance, which I know was not directly within the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General’s report, are you convinced that expenditure in terms of damaged vehicles and the outgoing cost, which I presume is paid through the State, is the most efficient deal we can get? Obviously, the central facet of the report relates to the garage.

Mr. Dalton: It is definitely the best arrangement because the figure has been worked out at approximately £267 per car for damage. That is infinitely lower than you would pay on insurance given the type of work Garda cars do.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe: Are senior officers in the Garda Síochána assigned cars in their own right from the rank of Chief Superindentent to Commissioner?

Mr. Dalton: No.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe: What rank of Garda would have a car assigned to them?

Mr. Dalton: The Commissioner would have a car assigned to him. If someone needs to go somewhere, they can get a car if they require one.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe: Are cars available for security duty at certain Ambassadors’ residences or offices?

Mr. Dalton: There would be escort cars, although Ambassadors provide their own transport.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe: Does the State pay for that?

Mr. Dalton: For the escort service, if it arose, yes.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe: Would they have security protection?

Mr. Dalton: They would have protection in cases where the gardaí judge it necessary, either discreet or overt.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe: I am interested in the cost factor. What rank of Garda would have a car and a driver?

Mr. Dalton: The Commissioner would have one, while others at senior level would be able to call on transport as they need it.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe: There a number of Vanettes in areas where there is community policing. How successful do you find those small vehicles?

Mr. Dalton: The reports which we have received indicate that they are extremely successful. They are cheap to buy - approximately £6,000 as opposed to £13,000 for a patrol car. They are a lot less costly to maintain than motorbikes.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe: Do you plan to put anymore of those vehicles in place?

Mr. Dalton: We depend on Garda advice as regards the number of vehicles in place. I said earlier that one of the consequences of reducing the number of motor vehicles will be to increase the number of Vanettes.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe: Would you agree that there should be a Vanette in each rural Garda station?

Mr. Dalton: That is a matter on which we would depend on Garda advice. My view on it would not matter.

Chairman: I congratulate Mr. John Purcell, the Comptroller and Auditor General, on his Report on Value for Money in respect of Garda Transport. I welcome this report which has pointed out that there are opportunities for achieving savings. The Committee would urge that these be pursued and achieved at the earliest opportunity. The Committee welcomes the Accounting Officer’s response to the report and is glad to hear that changes on hand have already achieved at least a saving of £175,000 per year. We look forward to receiving a report from the Accounting Officer on progress in commencing the remaining initiatives identified in the report. I thank Mr. Dalton and look forward to his next appearance before the Committee on 1 February.

Deputy Broughan: I would like to put an addendum. While congratulating the Comptroller and Auditor General and his staff on producing this report, I would like to insert a slight caveat in relation to the garage and the huge comparisons which have been made between internal and commercial repairs and maintenance. It would have been useful to have made comparisons with similar fleets in organisations in the public sector like An Post, as the Secretary indicated. Using records and accounts available, we could have made this comparison with even a private sector fleet.

Mr. Purcell: I mentioned earlier that you must compare like with like and we compared it with a police force in the UK. While there may be some validity in comparing it with An Post, the type of treatment a van from An Post would get compared with a high powered vehicle from the Emergency Response Unit might not tell us that much more. We contacted the Revenue Commissioners which operates a fairly large fleet. We understand that its maintenance and service work is done by commercial garages.

The Witness withdrew.

THE COMMITTEE ADJOURNED.