Committee Reports > List of Committees > Dáil > 1980 > Committee of Public Accounts > Report - Appropriation Accounts 1978

MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA

(Minutes of Evidence)

Déardaoin, 1 Bealtaine, 1980

Thursday, 1st May, 1980

The Committe met at 11 a.m.

DEPUTY O’TOOLE in the chair.

Mr. S. Mac Gearailt (An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste) called and examined.

MINUTE OF THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE ON THE COMMITTEE’S REPORT (Paragraphs 13, 14, 21 and 48) ON THE APPROPRIATION ACCOUNTS, 1977

Mr. G. A. Meagher called and examined.

335. Chairman.—The Minister’s Minute on paragraph 13 of the Committee’s previous Report concerns the additional posts of auditor and trainee auditor that were created in 1979. What is the present position in respect of the provision of this personnel?

—The present position is that, as the Minute says, the number of posts of auditor and trainee auditor was increased. The authorised number of posts from 1 December 1978 totalled 42 and on 1 December 1979 had been increased to 54. There are now 13 vacancies, five vacancies for auditor and eight vacancies for trainee auditor. As regards the auditors, one additional appointee will take up duty on 19 May. A more recent competition was held for auditor posts but only three candidates attended and none was recommended for appointment; so a further competition will have to be advertised shortly. On trainee auditors, three candidates have accepted appointment from the last competition and they are expected to take up duty in June or July of this year. Offers of appointment have been issued to four other candidates and a fifth is being cleared at the moment by the Commission. The coming months should see a decided improvement on the trainee auditor side.

336. The Minister’s Minute on Paragraph 14 of the Committee’s previous Report deals with housing subsidies in respect of the period 1973 to 1976. In relation to 1976 there is a list of outstanding audits. What is the position at the moment?

—The audits’ position generally has improved in that arrears continue to be cleared. On 31 October 1978 the total of outstanding audits was 649. On 30 November 1979 that figure had been reduced to 558 and on 28 April the figure was down to 520. The position is somewhat better than the figures might indicate in as much as a number of audits are almost completed but have been adjourned because of legal proceedings instituted by an auditor against the Western Health Board. That has resulted in a number of audits being adjourned until later this month.

337. The Minister’s Minute on paragraph 48 of the Committee’s previous Report concerns the establishment of applicants’ eligibility for the £1,000 housing grant. What is the present position?

—Since the Committee raised this matter, it has been under active consideration. It has been approached from two aspects—firstly, a review of the legislation with a view to seeing whether the regulations or the legislation ought to be changed and secondly, a review of the administration of the grants to see what can be done in that area. The question of changing either the Act or the regulations is still being looked at. As regards the administration, we have reached an arrangement with the Revenue Commissioners, with the approval of the Department of Finance, whereby applicants for the grant will be required to furnish a certificate that the person in question and the person’s spouse have not claimed income tax relief in respect of interest paid on money borrowed to purchase or build a new dwelling. That should effect an extra control on eligibility.

338. One question that arises on this paragraph deals with ownership of property outside the State. How do you go about investigating this? I understand from the application forms that it pertains to the whole world. One could end up anywhere.

—That is so. The intention is to see whether this new procedure, which is to be introduced shortly with regard to income tax certificates, should also apply to Britain in as much as the British Revenue would be asked to furnish a certificate. As regards going outside Britain, that would hardly be on.

339. You must rely on the statutory declaration?

—Yes.

340. The Minister’s Minute on paragraph 21 of the Committee’s previous Report concerns the recovery of moneys owed by Cork Corporation. I notice that the money has been fully recovered through making a corresponding reduction in the subsidy payments made subsequently. Has this arisen in any other local authority.

—Not to any extent. We are satisfied that the rent arrears that were subsidised have now been identified and any subsidy that was paid has been recovered. The only one of any significance at all was Cork. The situation in Cork was that the subsidy was payable under the regulations in force at the time on the deficit in the housing revenue account. That is not the case in Dublin Corporation, where the housing accounts are kept on a different basis to Cork. In Dublin, it was possible to isolate rent arrears and not subsidise them. In the case of Cork, the arrears added to the deficit in housing revenue and consequently, because of the regulations then in force, the deficit was subsidised and hence the arrears were subsidised. As I have said, the money has now been recovered.

VOTE 29—ENVIRONMENT

Mr. G. A. Meagher further examined.

341. Chairman.—Paragraph 30 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Motor Vehicle Duties

A test examination of the revenue from motor vehicle duties, etc., was carried out with satisfactory results. The gross proceeds for the years 1978 and 1977 were:—

£18,456,300 was paid into the Exchequer during the year leaving a balance of £383,892 compared with £295,776 at the end of the previous year. Driving Test fees of £357,283, which prior to 1 January 1978 were paid into the Exchequer, are now appropriated in aid of the Environment Vote. Appliances and Structures fees accruing from 1 January 1978 are retained by Local Authorities; the sum of £5,604 above represents fees accured prior to that date.

The motor tax transactions of the 29 licensing authorities are subject to examination by Local Government Auditors whose reports are made available to me.”

Mr. Mac Gearailt.—This paragraph is for information. It gives particulars of the motor vehicle duties collected under the various heads and it also refers to the changes from 1 January 1978 in the accounting arrangements for driving test fees and appliances and structures fees.

342. Has the Accounting Officer any comment to make?

—It might be noted that in 1978 there were changes in the arrangements for road financing. The Road Fund was abolished as from 1 January 1978 and the Vote of the Department now carries the road grants. The Votes of other Departments, which hitherto had been tied in with the Road Fund, are also carrying their own expenditures, such as the Vote for the Department of Justice.

343. The sum for driving test fees £357,283, what does that cover?

—It covers the fees sent in by applicants for the driving test. It does not cover the full cost of carrying out the driving tests. It is simply the fees payable by the applicants.

344. You will recall that recently this particular section had to issue driving licences without tests for certain categories of applicants. Was that due to lack of qualified staff? What was the reason for having to apply this measure at the time?

—The postal strike led to a very considerable backlog of arrears developing. That was the principal factor. The staffing situation was not adequate to cope with it and the time required to create extra appointments would have meant that very considerable numbers of applicants would have to wait for months for their tests. Also during that particular year there was quite an increase in the number of applicants for driving tests.

345. What is the position on the auditing of the licensing authorities’ motor tax accounts by the Local Government Auditors? How up to date are you in that area?

—The position in respect of the motor tax accounts has improved. The current audits, including arrears, at 31 May 1979 showed two audits outstanding in respect of 1975, seven in respect of 1976, 16 in respect of 1977 and 28 in respect of 1978. Since then, 24 audits have been completed, so the position at 28 April of this year is eight audits outstanding for 1977, none outstanding for 1975 and 1976, 21 audits outstanding for 1978 and 29 for 1979. The arrears position has improved significantly.

346. Deputy Leyden.—On subhead J—Local Improvements Scheme—there is an under-expenditure of £93,795. I would like to know the reasons for that because in our area we usually spend what we get and more if possible. I wonder why that was not distributed among the other counties?

—The saving was due to the local authorities being unable to expend grants in full owing to industrial action by local authority officers. This industrial action occured on foot of a claim for salary restructuring. The matter eventually was resolved but during most of 1978 the industrial action affected the rate at which the Local Improvements Scheme and certain other works were undertaken. On the question of transferring money to other local authorities, that is normally done if there is clear evidence of a surplus being available in a particular local authority. My recollection is that in this particular situation it was not quite clear in time whether the money would or would not be spent in particular areas.

347. Chairman.—On subhead E.1— Housing Subsidy—out of a grant of £45 million expenditure was within £140 of that sum. Could you explain how this particular degree of accuracy came about?

—It is capable of pretty accurate estimation but there is also a situation here that, if one had somewhat more money, one could pay it. The subsidy constitutes a percentage of what the local authority actually claims. Generally speaking, it would be in the region of 95 per cent to 97 per cent of what the local authority would claim and it is paid on the basis of auditors’ certificates or accounts which have been administratively checked by the Department so that normally it is possible to pay out the full amount of the subhead.

348. Deputy O’Hanlon.—On subhead E. 2—Private Housing Grants—£2,500,000 was not taken up on private housing. Was there any particular reason for that?

—The saving there arose because of a low rate of approved applications maturing for payment during the year. This related both to improvement grants and new house grants. Another definite factor was the shortage of materials due to industrial disputes. In the autumn of 1978 the two main producers of concrete products were subject to industrial disputes with the result that concrete blocks and particularly roofing tiles were in very short supply. We got reports from An Foras Forbartha about the position at the time and they indicated that the supply of certain items, particularly roofing tiles, had practically stopped. Also wet concrete for delivery on sites had been very seriously affected.

349. Chairman.—The slow-up in applications maturing for payments was not due to delays in processing except for the reasons you have given. Would it be for personnel reasons?

—Except for the reasons I have given. In the normal course there are delays in processing applications so that there are always arrears of housing grants awaiting payment because of problems of securing adequate staff for the work as it arises. Over the years we have had the experience that a certain level of arrears exists.

350. We raised the question before in relation to inspections and visitations by your officers to individuals for grant purposes. In many cases people are not in when called on and the officer must leave a note that he called and that he will call back later. One suggestion was made that your officers might notify people of their approximate time of visitation. It would help to cut down on having to re-visit people.

—That is right. Following the matter being raised in this Committee we examined the arrangements again and we did our best to improve the situation by ensuring that when an inspector called he left a note saying that he had called and would call again and give the applicant a few days advance notice. Quite often it was found that both the husband and the wife were out at work so that an evening inspection or maybe a weekend inspection had to be arranged. We also request that persons give their telephone numbers so that they can be phoned in advance. We continue, however, to have the problem where people are not at home when the inspectors call.

Has the situation improved?

—We did our best to improve it.

351. Deputy Leydon.—It seems a very simple proposal by the Chairman. I ring the Department regularly asking them to send a card to a particular person to ensure that he will be there. This is done by the Department of Agriculture when cattle are being tested. Nobody wants to know the exact time but if they had an indication that the inspector would come on a certain day most people would be prepared to get that time off or to make some arrangements to ensure that the inspection would be carried out. It is a waste of money, time and energy for inspectors to call and find nobody in and there is a high percentage of calls that are unsuccessful. I fail to see why a card cannot be sent to say that the inspector will call on a certain day. If that could be arranged it would be worthwhile. I would urge the Committee to request that that course be pursued. I would like that to be considered in more detail. You gave the reply that when the inspector called he left a note saying he would call again, but you did not say that you would see to it that he would send an appointment card.

—I will look at that. I do not know the details of the Department of Agriculture scheme, but the number of housing files with an inspector will be very considerable at any given time. That may be a factor in it but the point raised by the Deputy will be looked at.

You could include on your application forms a standard card that could be filled in with the address and so on on it to cut down the work in your Department. People are prepared to help in every way.

Chairman.—The degree of co-operation that would be forthcoming in this particular instance would be substantial because there is a grant involved and people are anxious to get the process cleared for payment of the grant so that one would probably be surprised at the degree of co-operation one would get in this particular instance for that reason alone.

352. Deputy O’Hanlon.—I would agree. Nowadays when both the husband and wife are out working in the early years of marriage, there must be a tremendous number of houses where there is nobody there when the inspector calls. I wonder if it is possible to get any figures of the number of times an inspector calls to houses and there is nobody there?

—I cannot give figures offhand, but we had a bonus scheme in operation for inspectors and in the assessment of the number of files returned by inspectors for the purposes of this bonus scheme we had to allow up to five abortive calls per week. That suggests that there is a fair number of calls of that nature occurring. As the Committee are anxious about this I will have a note* sent to the Committee on the whole situation, taking into account the points made by the Deputies.

Chairman.—Thank you very much.

353. Deputy O’Hanlon.—There is one other question arising under subhead Q—Miscellaneous Services—the question of stray cats and dogs. Is there any delay on the part of local authorities in setting up the proper accommodation for the animals?

—There was in that particular year but I think this was the first year of the operation of the scheme and it had not gone ahead as quickly as one had hoped. I do not know the up-to-date position on that, and I shall send the Committee a note* on it.

354. Deputy Leyden.—On subhead S—Apprentice Employment—this is one aspect of the local authorities which I am not satisfied with. Have the Department a policy in relation to the recruitment of apprentices in specific numbers or is it left to the discretion of each local authority?

—In this particular situation it was the action group that had been set up under the Department of Labour which produced estimates of what could be done by way of recruitment of apprentices and the estimates that have been prepared were not actually met in the event. Local authorities did not recruit as many as we thought they might or did not recruit them early enough in the year to justify the payment under the subhead. The arrangement for recruiting of apprentices is one between the local authority and the unions.

355. Are you providing a subsidy to each local authority to recruit apprentices? Is that continued in the present year and last year? Is there an official to help local authorities to employ apprentices?

—In subhead R in 1980, there is a sum of £1,000 described as grants to local authorities to encourage the employment of construction industry apprentices.

That would be a token provision?

—Yes, that would be about it. It is really a token.

356 If a council came up with a scheme to employ a particular number of apprentices they could apply to the Department for assistance? Is that basically the position?

—Yes, subject to the conditions attaching to the subhead. I have not the details at the moment. The provision in 1979 was £12,000. It is down now in 1980 to £1,000.

357. Is that widely known in the councils?

—In relation to the 1978 provision, circulars did go out to local authorities and county managers were represented in the action group.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 44—TOURISM AND TRANSPORT

Mr. N. McMahon called and examined.

358. Chairman.—On Subhead B.4— Cross-Channel Telephone Lines used for Civil Aviation—there is a note here that savings were due to rebates on rentals for periods of unserviceability due to industrial action. Cross-Channel telephone lines are used for civil aviation. It is a rather disturbing explanation, if I may say so. Perhaps you could explain it more fully.

—Yes. You will be aware that in 1978 there was a dispute in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs which caused delays in the rendering of accounts and also made it difficult to restore services which became unserviceable. Both these factors led to delays in the rendering of accounts for the year and pushed them forward into the following year; in fact the problem continued into 1979. These moneys were eventually paid according as the Department of Posts and Telegraphs restored its system and caught up on the arrears.

359. What happened on the ground or in the air in relation to civil aviation lines that were not in service at a particular time?

—Most of these services are duplicated. There are alternative means. Also many of these lines are not directly related to air-ground communications, which is where the safety arises, or to radio or landing installations, but related to business communications between the two administrations. Particularly where safety is involved there are always stand-by arrangements.

360. On subhead E—Grants for Harbours—the saving was due to the fact that progress on the Cork Harbour Scheme was slower than anticipated. Would you expand on that note?

—Subhead E relates mainly to the Cork Harbour Development Scheme, a very major scheme, one of the biggest harbour development schemes ever undertaken in this country. It consists of major dredging operations at the entrance to the harbour and in the channel leading into the harbour and the removal of a bar which limits the size of vessels coming into Cork. It also involves extensive marine works at Ringaskiddy which involve the provision of a deepwater wharf and new roll-on/roll-off facilities. These are fairly major works which involve a number of large contracts. In common with most port development works their progress is very much affected by weather and sea conditions and it is usually rather difficult for the harbour authority and for the Department to forecast very accurately the rate of progress that will be made during the year. We have had some difficulty on this subhead in other years in relating payments to the provisions. Inevitably circumstances arise in the course of the year, either related to problems experienced by the contractor or to weather or marine conditions, which affect the progress of the work and this is what has happened during 1978.

361. On Appropriations-in-Aid, Item No. 10—Receipts under the 1933 Foreshore Act and the 1954 State Property Act—the note states that the surplus is due mainly to an increase in rents charged for lettings of foreshore, increased demand and a large payment of arrears (£10,000) from a county council. Is the question of arrears a regular feature?

—This is not a regular feature. In most cases the foreshore leases are fairly well known in advance and we can usually make fairly accurate assessment of the income which we will receive during the year. There were a number of exceptional circumstances in this year which led to a considerable surplus. It is not a recurring problem and we do not normally have significant variations on this subhead.

362. Deputy O’Hanlon.—The note on No. 9 states that it was not found possible to issue licences under new legislation. Is there any reason for this?

—I should give a little background information here. Under the Road Transport Act, 1978 certain changes were made in the regulatory environment affecting road haulage and one of the matters which was provided for was the abolition of certain exempted areas around the main ports, Dublin, Cork and Limerick. The intention was that we would abolish these exempted areas but those hauliers who had been operating in these areas for a given number of years would be given licences so that they could operate legally. We considered it desirable that the abolition of the exempted areas should not take place until the legitimate hauliers had been given their licences. We advertised in 1978 and 1979 inviting these hauliers to come forward with evidence of their experience in haulage during the relevant years. Again I have to bring in a reference to the postal dispute which rendered our advertising abortive at that stage. At the end of the postal strike we re-advertised. The response was not as great as we would wish but we have now established contact with most of the hauliers who are entitled to licences in these areas. We are in the course of issuing new licences to them and we hope shortly to abolish the exempted areas. To summarise, an operation which we had intended to introduce in 1978 was frustrated by the communications and advertising problems and had to be deferred, and we now hope to carry this through in 1980.

363. Chairman.—I refer you to the table on State Airports and the figures there for Shannon. Comparing 1977 with 1978, revenue from profit on catering and sales shows a substantial decrease from £906,661 in 1977 to £20,281 in 1978. The operating deficits for Shannon Airport was £20,484 in 1977 as against £1.847 million in 1978. Would you comment on that?

—We have been somewhat concerned about the rather poor performance of certain revenue-earning functions at Shannon Airport. Some problems arose in 1978, mainly in labour costs. Firstly, there was an award given under the equal pay legislation to the female staff working in the duty-free shop and similar concession shops at the airport which led to some substantial payments which had not been foreseen or provided for. There was also a productivity agreement negotiated by Aer Lingus staff with their company and, under certain relativity provisions which derived from an earlier Labour Court recommendation, the staff of Aer Rianta are entitled to enjoy conditions comparable to those of Aer Lingus. Aer Rianta had to implement the Aer Lingus award in respect of their own staff and this also had not been foreseen. There were other additional costs affecting the total Aer Rianta operation over the years with the security problem. There had been a great deal of overtime working by security staff and this had got to the stage where we felt it was becoming almost permanent, or certainly an unnecessarily regular feature of the operation of the airport and it was our preference that Aer Rianta should engage additional staff and reduce the amount of overtime. This necessitated the negotiation of certain compensatory payments to workers who had been enjoying substantial overtime payments over the years. These features plus some other additional costs which arose in that year led to a rather poor performance on the part of Shannon. We are at present carrying out a general review of the financial performance of the three State airports, Shannon, Cork and Dublin and the financial relationships between Aer Rianta and the Department. This should be completed within a few months and there may be some improvement. On the Shannon problems, the financial performance in more recent years has been much better.

364. Deputy Morley.—Under the heading of Extra Remuneration, 411 officers received amounts varying from £201 to £4,706. Would many officers get overtime payments to the order of £4,700?

—£4,700 is the maximum payment and was paid to one officer in the technical operations service at the airport. It is a fairly high sum and it represents the high water mark. Overtime working is an unavoidable feature of an operational service which has to be manned 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, and when, because of either illness or staff shortages or people missing for training courses, a manning post cannot be filled obviously the previous watch officer must stay on duty. It is impossible to eliminate overtime in this area. We try to keep it to a minimum and try to avoid a situation where overtime substitutes for new jobs, but it is not always possible. We find, too, that some members of the staff prefer not to do overtime and, therefore, those who are willing and available to do it in some cases tend to accumulate fairly extensive overtime hours and extensive overtime payments. This figure of £4,700 is the highest achieved and was reached by only one officer.

365. Deputy Horgan.—In relation to No. 1 under the Appropriations-in-Aid, when were the fees under the Air Navigation and Transport Acts last fixed at their present level and did the increase in the number of aircraft on the Irish register, which is referred to in the note, involve the Department in any expenditure that might be disproportionate to the additional revenue and fees accruing.

—The four additional aircraft acquired by Aer Lingus were, if I recall correctly, aircraft which formed part of an arrangement by Guinness Peat Aviation which is an associated company of Aer Lingus involving aircraft dealing in aircraft leasing for foreign airlines who are short of capacity at a particular time. Their entry into the Irish register would certainly engage certain numbers of our staff in putting them on the register and possibly certifying them for airworthiness purposes. The extra costs would tend to be marginal because these are officers of the Department who would take this on as part of their normal duties. As regards the level of fees, I am not so sure if I am in a position to say when these particular fees were last revised. Our policy is to try to keep them in line with increasing costs or in line with inflation. We certainly have increased them in recent years. We gave comprehensive information in reply to a Dáil Question about 10 days ago. Unfortunately, I do not have it with me at the moment, but I could certainly supplement on this point if necessary.

The witness withdrew.

MINUTE OF THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE ON THE COMMITTEE’S REPORT (paragraphs 19 and 54) ON THE APPROPRIATION ACCOUNTS 1977

Mr. L. Ó Réagáin called and examined.

366. Chairman.—On the Finance Minute in relation to paragraph 19 of the Committee’s previous Report—Cable Television Fees and Television Licence Defaulters—what is the current position in relation to licensees and the information they are expected to give?

—We are trying to improve on the rather unsatisfactory position which had been mentioned on the last occasion by seeking to get in more information from the television dealers. We have, since the end of last year, been in touch with most of the television dealers at present registered and we have asked them to give returns of transactions. There are about 700 television dealers registered altogether and we have been in touch with upwards of 500 of them now.

We are talking about the cable television licensees—paragraph 19 of the Committee’s previous report.

—We are trying to improve the position in ensuring that the regulations are complied with by the cable television licensees, and there has been an improvement in the last couple of years.

367. The Minute states that two of the five remaining have not yet supplied information. They would have commenced operations in recent months. Have the Department got around to outstanding operators?

—I would like to give a note* on the current position in relation to that.

368. The Minister’s Minute on paragraph 54 of the Committee’s previous Report sets out the position on the location of the Post Office bank account. Will you comment on that?

—We will be looking at this question again in some detail over the next year or so because we will be concerned with providing revised banking arrangements as we prepare for the transfer of the postal service to a State-sponsored body. I expect that the Departments concerned, plus the interim Postal Board, will be looking at all the arrangements and will have to make some decisions about them.

VOTE 45—POSTS AND TELEGRAPHS

Mr. L. Ó Réagáin further examined.

369. Chairman.—Paragraph 52 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Stores

A test examination of the store accounts was carried out with generally satisfactory results. Matters arising from this examination are dealt with in the following paragraphs. In addition to the engineering stores shown in Appendix II as valued at £13,379,978 at 31 December 1978, engineering stores to the value of £17,183 were held on behalf of other Government departments. Stores, other than engineering stores, were valued at £2,578,685 including £905,897 in respect of stores held for other government departments.

Including works in progress at 31 December 1978 the expenditure on manufacturing jobs in the factory during the year amounted to £219,361, expenditure on repair work (other than repairs to mechanical transport) to £444,853 and expenditure on mechanical transport repairs to £57,690.”

Mr. Mac Gearailt.—This paragraph reports to Dáil Éireann that the store accounts kept by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs were duly examined by my office in 1978 as required by statute. The paragraph also gives the value of engineering and other stores on hand at 31 December 1978 including stores held on behalf of other Government Departments.

370. Chairman.—Could you outline the work of manufacturing jobs in the factory?

—The manufacturing jobs are mostly for the Post Office with a small amount done for other Government Departments. For ourselves we manufacture mail bags, switchboards, badges, telephone kiosks, fittings, safety belts, etc., and for other Government Departments items such as leather fittings, webb straps, flags and bunting for the Army, buttons, badges and so on.

371. Paragraph 53 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Subhead E—Postal and General Stores Mechanical Transport

Overall responsibility for control of the maintenance costs of the postal fleet of vehicles rests with the Mechanical Transport Section of the Department’s Stores Branch.

In the course of audit it was noted that a life history file for each vehicle included in the fleet is compiled in that Section from monthly returns showing running and maintenance costs, mileage, etc., but that the practice of using these files to monitor the performance of each vehicle appears to have been discontinued except during a vehicle’s warranty period. I sought the observations of the Accounting Officer on this apparent change in the Department’s control procedures, especially having regard to the size of the postal fleet which at the year end comprised some 1,400 vehicles.”

Mr. Mac Gearailt.—This paragraph draws attention to the non-use of vehicle history files maintained in the Mechanical Transport Section, St. John’s Road, to monitor the performance of vehicles of the postal fleet after the termination of the warranty period. The Accounting Officer has informed me that, because of the big increase in the size of the fleet in recent years and the rapid turnover of staff, it was necessary to change to monitoring the performance of these vehicles on a selective basis and this was working satisfactorily. He added that copies of life histories completed by head postmasters for vehicles outside Dublin and by the controller in the case of the Dublin Postal District are retained locally and examined by the inspectors of mechanical transport during their field inspections of postal vehicles. Notice is taken of abnormally high running costs and appropriate action taken.

372. Chairman.—On that point, you had 1,400 vehicles in this particular year. How many inspectors are involved on normal inspection duties and can they cope to your satisfaction with this particular inspection area?

—We have been increasing the number. We added two to the number quite recently bringing it up to ten. We will keep the position under review. If we find we have an insufficient number, we will increase it. At the moment it looks as if we have enough. The expansion on the postal side may slow down somewhat over the next year or two, partly because of the position in relation to petrol supplies and partly because of some reorganisation we are carrying out among the provincial postal force.

373. Paragraph 54 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Tyre Stocks

The vehicle life history files referred to in the previous paragraph include information on the usage of tyres by each vehicle. It was noted during audits in the Mechanical Transport Section and at four of the Provincial Head Post Offices that frequently tyres were being issued on a bulk requisition basis by the Stores Branch to these offices rather than being issued as required for particular vehicles.

This has led to stocks of tyres being held locally and as a result a reconciliation between the number of tyres issued from the Stores Branch and the numbers fitted to particular vehicles can no longer be carried out in the Mechanical Transport Section in such cases.

I sought the observations of the Accounting Officer on the adequacy of the facilities and procedures for the custody of tyre stocks and their usage at Head Post Offices. Expenditure on tyres in 1978 amounted to £150,000, approximately.”

Mr. Mac Gearailt.—This paragraph draws attention to cases in which tyres for postal fleet vehicles were being issued on bulk requistions rather than on the basis of requisitions which specified the vehicles for which the tyres were required. As a result the Central Mechanical Transport Section would have difficulty in monitoring the tyre issues made for a particular vehicle. Moreover, stocks of tyres were being built up at local centres. The Accounting Officer has informed me that, while the majority of requisitions specify the particular vehicles for which tyres are required, a small number of head post offices have requisitioned tyres without so specifying the vehicles. Tyres issued on the basis of these latter requisitions, when received by the local head postmasters, are recorded in stock books and kept under lock and key. When ultimately fitted, details are noted in the stock book and the necessary entry is made in the relevant life history.

374. Chairman.—The amount involved in that particular year was £150,000 in respect of tyres. On the question of bulk requisitions by local head post offices, when he examines the records does your inspector also examine the vehicles on which tyres are being fitted?

—Yes. It is part of his job to carry out a thorough investigation of all vehicles.

To ensure that there is a reconciliation between the book-keeping and the actual issues?

—Yes, that is so.

375. Paragraph 55 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Subhead F—Engineering Stores and Equipment—Mechanical Transport

While, as stated in paragraph 53, overall responsibility for the control of maintenance costs of the Department’s postal fleet of vehicles rests with the Mechanical Transport Section of the Stores Branch, there is no central section with overall responsibility for the control of the running and maintenance costs of the engineering fleet which at 31 December 1978 comprised some 2,000 vehicles. Each District Engineering Office is responsible for vehicles under its control. It was noted during local audits carried out recently at two District Engineering Offices that the life history cards and certain subsidiary records were no longer being written up for each vehicle. Such records are normally used to review and control maintenance and running costs of vehicles and also to monitor the functional life-span of particular vehicles. I have, accordingly, asked the Accounting Officer for information on the current procedures in operation for the control of the running and maintenance costs of the engineering fleet.”

Mr. Mac Gearailt.—Responsibility for monitoring and controlling maintenance costs of vehicles in the Department’s engineering fleet rests with the district engineers’ offices and this paragraph draws attention to the failure of two of these offices to keep up to date the records necessary for this task. The Accounting Officer has informed me that this failure was mainly due to pressure of other work, to shortages and changing of staffing, to the increase in the number of vehicles and, more recently, to the effects of the engineering and postal disputes. He added that instructions have been issued to district engineers to ensure that proper records of the running and maintenance costs of all vehicles are maintained and that arrangements have been made to have a local audit of these running costs carried out periodically by the stores audit section of the engineering branch.

376. Chairman.—The mechanical transport section comprises something over 2,000 vehicles, or did at that time. What is the normal criterion used in the selection of people to maintain these vehicles at local garage level?

—There are two systems. We do a certain amount of the maintenance ourselves mainly at the larger centres and, in other areas, we send the cars out to local garages whose performance we judge as time goes on.

377. What is the average life span of a vehicle?

—I would find it very hard to answer that offhand. We have a very large number of vehicles; our current fleet on the engineering side is now about 2,500 and we have about 1,600 on the postal side. A lot depends on the use made of them and the type of work they are doing. Some of them are small, like fitters’ vans for going round from one premises to another, others are heavy trucks used for carrying large engineering stores and to bring gangs from one working site to another. It would be very difficult to give an average figure. What we do is to monitor the performance of the vehicles and quite a number of returns are sent to headquarters and to the Stores Branch Mechanical Transport Section where their performance is specially watched. If we find over a period of time that certain makes of vehicles perform less well than others, we switch to another type.

378. At the moment there are complaints from some garages who carry out maintenance to the effect that there are what they regard as undue delays in payment of accounts by your Department, despite the fact that, in so far as they are concerned, they say that all the documentation is in order and that there is no reason for delay. There is an agreed statement as to what is involved. There are still long delays in payments and with the current rate of interest these people are complaining about this.

—I am sorry to hear that. I think it is true to say that our Stores Branch which deals with these matters has been under a great deal of pressure over the last year or so because of the expansion of our engineering fleet and because of various other requirements for the telephone development programme. I am not aware that there have been many complaints but I would certainly be very happy to look into any individual case.

379. Paragraph 56 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Post Office Savings Bank

The audit of the accounts of the Post Office Savings Bank for the year ended 31 December 1977 which had not been completed at the date of my previous report, has since been completed with satisfactory results.

The accounts of the Post Office Savings Bank for the year ended 31 December 1978 were submitted to a test examination with satisfactory results. The balance due to depositors, inclusive of interest amounted to £403,708,284 (including £164,951,223 in respect of liability to Trustee Savings Banks) at 31 December 1978 as compared with £387,776,921 at the close of the previous year. Interest accrued during the year on securities standing to the credit of the Post Office Savings Bank Fund amounted to £42,540,546. Of this sum £26,211,857 was applied as interest paid and credited to depositors. Management expenses absorbed £3,649,518 and the balance, £12,679,171, remained as a provision against depreciation in the value of securities.”

Mr. Mac Gearailt.—As stated in the paragraph, the audit of the Post Office Savings Bank Account for the year ended 31 December 1977 which had not been completed at the date of my previous report, has since been completed with satisfactory results. The paragraph also gives information on the operation of the Post Office Savings Bank for the year 1978, including the balance due to depositors at the year end which shows an increase of almost £16 million over the previous year.

380. Chairman.—How are you coping with competition in relation to deposits in this area, taking into account the rates of interest being paid elsewhere and so on?

—The policy in relation to those matters is a matter for the Department of Finance. We merely operate the service as an agency one. We deal with deposits and withdrawals and transfer the net intake to the Department of Finance.

You are showing a substantial increase in the volume of deposits?

—That is so.

381. Paragraph 57 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Revenue

A test examination of the accounts of postal, telegraph and telephone services was carried out with satisfactory results, subject to my observations in paragraphs 58 to 60. The net yield of revenue for the years 1978 and 1977 is shown in the following statement:—

£113,300,000 was paid into the Exchequer during the year leaving a balance of £470,837 at 31 December 1978. Sums amounting to £143,272 due for telephone services and £6,050 for telegraph (telex) services provided in previous years were written off as irrecoverable. I have made a test check of amounts written off with satisfactory results.”

Mr. Mac Gearailt.—This paragraph reports to Dáil Éireann that accounts of the revenue from Post Office services have been examined with satisfactory results subject to my observations in paragraphs 58-60. The net yield of revenue from the postal, telegraph and telephone services is shown for the year under review together with the figures for 1977. Also shown in the paragraph is the amount paid over to the Exchequer in respect of those services and the amounts written off during the year as irrecoverable.

382. Chairman.—Could you comment on the fact that, on looking at the figures for 1978 vis-à-vis 1977, there is a reduction in the postal and telephone revenue?

—The drop is very largely due to the industrial dispute and the under-collection because of late issue of accounts. Our estimate is that we lost about £8 million as a result of the engineering industrial dispute and that the under-collection, because of the late issue of accounts, would amount to about £17 million, so there is a figure of about £25 million to be added to the figures shown there.

383. Deputy Horgan.—In relation to this £25 million, has that gone forever?

—No. £8 million is gone forever. The other £17 million is due to the late issue of accounts and we expect to get the greater portion of that.

384. Under what main headings do the losses arise?

—Services for which we cannot charge, for instance, where we were not providing service because of the industrial dispute. We have lost, first of all, charges for calls that would have been made and then again we have to give rebates of rental to subscribers who were not getting service.

385. Chairman.—Paragraph 58 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“The approved procedures for the collection of telephone accounts provide for the issue of accounts to subscribers on a quarterly basis, for the issue of final notices where accounts are not paid promptly and for the issue of instructions to restrict or discontinue service when accounts remain unpaid. In the course of the test examination it was noted that the procedure for the restriction of service where accounts were in arrears was not fully implemented in 1977 and was suspended in 1978. I have sought the observations of the Accounting Officer on this matter.”

Mr. Mac Gearailt.—Paragraphs 58, 59 and 60 deal with certain shortcomings in the implementation of the approved procedures for collecting telephone revenue.

One of the approved procedures requires that subscribers whose accounts are in arrears should have their service restricted by being prevented from making outward calls. This restriction of service was not fully implemented in 1977 and was suspended in 1978. The Accounting Officer has informed me that the issue of telephone accounts had fallen seriously into arrears during the second half of 1976 because of breakdowns in the ADP accounting machines. It was decided, therefore, to press ahead with the extension of the computerisation of the system, already in operation in the Cork area, to the rest of the country even though the teething problems associated with computerisation had not yet been solved. As a result of the late issue of accounts in the third and fourth quarters of 1976 there was a substantial shortfall in the revenue collected that year. Special steps had to be taken in 1977 to expedite the issue of accounts in order to collect the budgeted revenue. These steps included the relaxation of the service restriction procedure except in cases where arrears reached certain limits. Eventually in 1978 the disconnection of subscribers in arrears had to be completely suspended because of various industrial actions.

386. Chairman.—In relation to the Comptroller and Auditor General’s comments can you tell us how the suspension of disconnections would expedite the completion of accounts?

—Very largely the same staff are involved in handling all the procedures in relation to telephone accounts. The withdrawal of service means diverting quite a number of staff to handle disconnections and to expedite replies to the various complaints and queries that come in at the end of the accounting period. I should say that we get a very large number of queries in relation to telephone accounts. In the latest quarter that I have here we got something like 70,000 queries. We do not disconnect or interrupt service where a customer’s account is under query. If we were to press on with disconnection of service it would mean we would not merely have to deal with the ordinary routine accounting work but also to deal with disconnections. If we were to do that staff who would be normally engaged in getting out the accounts for the next period would not be able to do so. Because of that difficulty we lifted the suspension of service. I should say that we have restored the normal procedure since the issue of the April-September double account last year. We are continuing the normal procedures now.

387. Are you happy with the computerisation system? It has been mentioned that it had teething problems but, nevertheless, you are extending it. Are you happy with the level of technically qualified personnel in the computer section programming and that kind of thing?

—Yes. It is a rather difficult section to keep up to full strength. There is a lot of demand for people with computer knowledge both in the Department and outside, and we have lost people to outside employers. At present, we are reasonably satisfied with it and the computerisation is working very well. We would not be able to continue without the computerisation systems we introduced.

388. Paragraph 59 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Initial accounts are issued to new telephone subscribers on the receipt in the Accounts Branch of advice notes from the Engineering Branch that service has been provided. The issue of final accounts similarly depends on the receipt of advice notes that service has been terminated.

In the course of the audit it was noted that long delays—more than a year in some cases—had arisen in the issue of both initial and final accounts, due apparently to the fact that the relevant advice notes from the Engineering Branch had not been received in the Accounts Branch even though the work had been completed. As billing delays cause arrears to build up and can result in a loss of revenue. I have inquired whether any measures are proposed to eliminate such delays.”

Mr. Mac Gearailt.—This paragraph draws attention to long delays in issuing initial and final accounts to subscribers because of communication problems between the Engineering Branch and the telephone accounts section. The Accounting Officer has informed me that the delays were in the main due to the failure of the Engineering Branch to forward the necessary advice notes promptly to the Accounts Section. Occasionally the delay might be due to an advice note being lost in the post or mislaid in the accountant’s branch. Special action had been initiated in February 1977 to expedite the clearance of these advice notes to the Accounts Section and a substantial improvement had been effected. Unfortunately, that improvement could not be maintained towards the end of 1977 or in 1978 because of staffing difficulties and industrial action in the Engineering Branch. The Accounting Officer has also informed me that the necessity for the prompt closing of advice notes is kept constantly under review by the Engineering Branch and that special attention is being given to improving the procedure initiated in 1977 with a view to ensuring that the clearance of advice notes to the telephone Accounts Section is kept up to date as far as is practicable.

389. Chairman.—You mentioned delays by the engineering section in issuing advice notes which obviously cause problems, particularly in final accounts being issued. Has that matter been resolved or improved?

—It has been improved quite considerably. It is a long standing problem. We have always had difficulty in getting advice notes returned promptly by our engineering people. The completion of the advice notes depends on the people doing the job—fitters and so on—and these seem to have a certain reluctance to do paper work. They are usually more concerned with getting the installation jobs done. We have had these problems over the years. At present the situation is not too bad, but we are watching it continuously because of the effects you mentioned on the accounting procedures. There is always a danger, particularly in the case of final accounts, of some revenue being lost. At the moment we are reasonably satisfied that there is a fairly speedy return of these advice notes.

390. Paragraph 60 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Final accounts of telephone subscribers which remain unpaid three months after issue should, in accordance with the approved procedure, be passed to the section of the Department which has special responsibility for collecting outstanding telephone accounts. In the course of audit it was noted that considerable delays had arisen in passing overdue final accounts to this section and I accordingly sought the observations of the Accounting Officer in the matter.”

Mr. Mac Gearailt.—While the previous paragraph deals with delays in issuing final accounts to telephone subscribers this paragraph is concerned with further delays in passing outstanding final accounts to the Claims Section for collection. The Accounting Officer has informed me that these delays which occurred during 1977 and 1978, were mainly due to (1) the late issue of the accounts for the third and fourth quarters of 1976; (2) the teething troubles experienced following the introduction of computer working; (3) the abnormal number of accounts queried by subscribers, and (4) pressure of work and staffing difficulties. Measures were taken in May 1978 to improve the staffing position, but their full effect was not felt until the autumn of that year.

391. Chairman.—On No. (3)—the abnormal number of accounts queried by subscribers—is this a latter day feature of your work and is it increasing?

—It is increasing very much. Where accounts are deemed to be high or where we have to combine two accounts, there is a natural tendency on the part of subscribers to raise more queries.

392. What is the reason for the delays in passing outstanding final accounts to the Claims Section, having got the clearance from the engineering section? There are problems in passing on the actual accounts to the Claims Section for collection—you have given some reasons here and I appreciate that. Looking at the problems facing your Department, one is struck by the consistent shortage of staff and industrial troubles. Would you not agree that you are getting more than your fair share of this particular kind of thing in your Department?

—There are two different matters involved here. So far as industrial trouble is concerned, it is true that the past two years were very difficult. It is the first time in 50 years we had anything on that scale and hopefully we will have another long period without similar trouble. There have also been a number of difficulties on our accounting side because of various developments coming at the same time. We have had a very steady expansion in the number of new telephone subscribers and in the number of telephone calls being handled. We had a changeover from our previous manual system to a computerised system. We had to do all that while carrying on normal business. There has been a very rapid turnover of staff, but this is true not only in our Department but in other Departments as well. There is a shortage of experienced staff in practically all the large grades. That is a good feature in one way because it indicates people are moving to better jobs; but as regards getting the work done it means we are short of experienced people. We had quite a difficult period, but we are emerging from it. Our computerisation has now been done and procedures have been laid down. In relation to the passing of final accounts to the Claims Section, the current position is quite satisfactory. The accounts are being passed promptly and we are hopeful that will continue. We are keeping it under fairly close review because it is an area where we can lose money. Our own feeling is that losses have been insignificant.

393. Paragraph 61 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Extra Exchequer Receipts—Broadcasting Licence Fees, Registration of Television Dealers

Under Section 2 of the Wireless Telegraphy Act, 1972, a television dealer is required to register with the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs within 30 days of becoming such a dealer and, under Section 3 of the Act, a registered dealer is required to furnish to the Department monthly returns of television sets sold by him or rented from him.

An examination of the Dealers’ Register by my officers revealed that 103 of the 720 registered dealers claimed to have little or no sales or rentals. Of the remainder 93 had failed to furnish any returns, 211 were up to a year in arrears, 281 were over a year in arrears and only 32 were up to date with their statutory returns.

As these returns were intended to be used as an aid to minimise the evasion of payment of television licence fees I have asked the Accounting Officer for information regarding the steps being taken to ensure that dealers comply promptly with their statutory obligations in this matter.”

Mr. Mac Gearailt.—This paragraph draws attention to the fact that a large number of television dealers, registered under the Wireless Telegraphy Act, 1972, were not fulfilling their statutory obligation to furnish the Department with monthly returns of television sets sold or rented. Such failure deprives the Department of a means of detecting the evasion of payment of television licence fees, a matter about which the committee expressed concern in its 1976 report. The Accounting Officer has informed me that since the provisions of the Wireless Telegraphy Act, 1972, were brought into effect on 1 March, 1973, over 450,000 transactions, including over 52,000 in 1978, have been notified to the Department and that this information has been of considerable benefit in dealing with cases where television sets were unlicensed or inadequately licensed. He stated that the arrears mentioned by me arose largely from pressure of other work and shortage of experienced staff.

He also stated that it was not possible to follow up the matter with registered dealers during the postal strike but that each registered dealer is now being written to and asked to declare whether he has had any transactions in television sets since the date of his last return and if so to supply particulars of these transactions. If the response is unsatisfactory the records of some of the larger registered dealers who are not sending in returns regularly will be inspected to establish whether they are in breach of the law, and, if necessary, prosecutions will be brought on the basis of these inspections.

394. Deputy Horgan.—Have any prosecutions been brought in respect of any suspected offence under the Act?

—Not in recent years.

395. Do you anticipate that any will be brought?

—That is our intention if we find evidence in the course of inspections that we are carrying out. If we get evidence which would support a prosecution we intend to prosecute.

396. Are you satisfied that the 720 dealers that were registered, cover all the retail outlets for television sets.

—It is fairly certain that they do not. Incidentally, the number registered has decreased to 680 now. In the last couple of months we have been advertising in the newspapers pointing out to television dealers the obligation on them to register. So far we have got registrations from 11, and 22 have written to know the requirements and so on. Quite obviously, there are some dealers who are not registered.

397. In relation to the 103 dealers referred to in the note who are claiming to have little or no sales or rentals, surely it is a matter of fact whether a dealer has or has not sales or rentals? Is there a breakdown of the 103 as between those who claimed they have no sales and those who admitted to some sales and were, therefore, required to make returns?

—In the case of those who claim to have no sales it is a question of inspecting their records and trying to establish whether, in fact, they had no sales and are complying with requirements. It is our intention to press on with that.

398. Chairman.—You are engaged in a substantial promotional advertising campaign for evaders. In the event of one of your inspectors finding an unlicensed television set which was purchased at an unregistered outlet, I presume you take action both against the television owner and the retail outlet?

—I do not know whether we would be likely to establish that in most cases. Usually it is difficult to establish that there is an unlicensed set on the premises. It would require co-operation from the person involved.

399. Is that part of the information sought by your inspector on his door-to-door rounds seeking out unlicensed sets? Does he ask where the person purchased the television set?

—I do not think so.

400. Deputy Horgan.—I presume you would not have a legal right to demand that information. In the situation we are describing where the television owner concerned is already finding himself hit for the licence and, perhaps, arrears, court costs and fines it would be a bit much to expect voluntary cooperation in relation to landing somebody else in trouble as well?

—I would fear so.

401. Chairman.—Have you any idea of the number of evaders in relation to the number of unregistered retail outlets?

—I have not. Those recent advertisements produced about 33 responses. I do not know what proportion of people would not respond in those circumstances.

402. You do not have any records within your Department where you would seek to establish who is or who is not registered, in the normal way?

—No. It is the next step to what we are doing. At the present time we are trying to get those who are registered with us to give returns and to get those who are willing to register to do so. That is a further step which is on our programme.

403. Deputy Horgan.—Is there a problem with roadside traders selling television sets? Is this one of the problems that are difficult to deal with?

—We have not very much evidence except what one sees going along the road. I do not know how we could successfully tackle that except by carrying out inspections to try to establish whether those people are registered or not. We have not got sufficient staff at present to do that, but we intend to increase the staff in this area of the Department to enforce existing legislation.

404. Chairman.—Is any roadside trader registered?

—I do not know.

405. Deputy Morley.—According to paragraph 61 only 32 of the registered dealers were up to date with their statutory returns and about 500 were a year or more in arrears. Is the Accounting Officer satisfied that there has been an improvement in that position?

—We have sent out letters to about 500 of the 680 television dealers at present registered. We got returns from 108 of them, covering about 14,000 transactions. We got reports from 66 that they did not have transactions since their last returns and approximately 50 of these have requested cancellation of their registration on the grounds that they are not in the business anymore. We have an improvement in the situation.

406. Have you followed up those returns then with an inspection of the records of people who say they had no dealings?

—Not as yet, but it is our intention to do so. At the moment we have not got the staff to carry out the inspection work but we are creating extra posts for that purpose.

407. Deputy Horgan.—In relation to subhead L.1—Grant for general purposes equivalent to Net Receipts from Broadcasting Licence Fees (Grant-in-Aid)—there seems to be a recurrent problem in relation to evasion and the subsequent shortfall. One of the notes indicates that there was an overpayment of £336,000 in 1977 which had to be compensated for by an adjustment in the 1978 accounts. Is the Accounting Officer satisfied that the present system is the best way of maximising the net receipts from television licences? Does the Accounting Officer have under consideration alternative methods such as transferring responsibility for collecting licence fees directly to RTE or, perhaps, approaching the Government to introduce legislation, if necessary, to have licences fees aggregated with ESB charges in order to streamline collection and reduce evasion? Can the Accounting Officer give any estimate of the shortfall in licence revenue by reason of evasion?

—We have looked at this problem on a number of occasions and we have discussed it also with RTE. Naturally RTE were very interested in what we are doing. Our feeling is that whoever is responsible for the collection of licence fees ultimately will have to fall back on some system of house to house inspection. At present inspectors are drawn from our staff at the various head post offices. We have not come up with any system that would seem to be an improvement on that. Neither has anything emerged from any discussions with RTE that would suggest a better system. It is, however, a matter which we have under further consideration at present. We are in the position that there will be a change in the legal status of the postal service, probably over the next 12 to 18 months. We are looking at the licence position as to what will happen then. It is an on-going problem. Neither we nor RTE are happy that we are succeeding in doing as much as might be done. But we have not yet come up with what looks like a better alternative to our present system. We have certain studies going on at present. We are considering computerising certain aspects of the work, and so on, which might help. But, as far as we can see, the problem tends always to fall back to the question of inspection.

408. Have you any idea of the magnitude of the shortfall?

—We have not. RTE have made certain estimates which suggest a very considerable amount.

About £3 million.

—Yes.

409. You would not disagree with that on the basis of your evidence?

—Quite frankly I do not think we have any evidence. Any time we carry out a campaign, such as the present one, we find a very considerable number of people with unlicensed sets. For instance, in the first two weeks of the present campaign we found 17,000 unlicensed, or wrongly licensed sets and the number of licences sold in that period doubled the normal figure, which suggests there were a number of others who suddenly realised it was time they took out licences.

410. In relation to the number of licences sold; you are able to put a cash figure on the effectiveness of a television campaign by comparing the average normal figure with the figure appearing immediately after the television campaign. Have you any idea roughly of what that figure is or what is the number of licences involved? I am wondering what is the average and the increase?

—We sold about 38,000 licences during the first two weeks of the campaign. The normal figure would be something around 18,000 to 20,000, so it is roughly double.

411. Is there a cash payment or a transfer payment recorded in any sense between the Department and RTE in relation to the broadcasting time occupied by these advertisements? Do the Department pay for these advertisements, do they go out free of charge, or is there any accounting procedure involved?

—I am not sure of the answer to that. I think they are provided by RTE free. If that is not the case I will let the Committee know.

412. Deputy Morley.—Are the inspectors employed at local post offices regular employees of the Post Office? What other duties would they have? Is there extra remuneration paid for going out on this particular inspection mission?

—Normally the inspectors employed by us are post office clerks who form part of the permanent staff of the Department. They are paid an allowance for this type of work. I should say in relation to this that there are some indications that this work is not being as willingly undertaken as it used to be.

413. Have you any estimate for the cost of this inspection countrywide?

—I do not have it here but I could very easily get a figure* for it, if the Committee wish.

414. Chairman.—Net receipts from licences come to something in the region of £12½ million. The total receipts realised were nearly £14½ million. Do I take it that the difference of about £2 million could be regarded as collection costs.

—There are two items involved. There are the expenses incurred in collecting the fees, the major one, and there is a minor item, expenses incurred in preventing interference with reception, in respect of which we do a certain amount of work.

415. Deputy Horgan.—On subhead I—Losses—could the Accounting Officer give us a brief indication of the kind of items that arise under this general heading of losses?

—There is a classified list in the Appropriation Accounts Volume.

416. In relation to subhead G—Telephone Capital Repayments—given the magnitude of the sums involved, they are fairly close but, however, there is a sum of £600,000 less than granted. Normally, we would be pleased at seeing what appeared to be a saving. It appears, however, in this case that a saving is not involved but, perhaps, some work was not completed. Is that the reason for that under-expenditure?

—It would be more like a question of various payments not made.

But falling due at a later date?

—Yes, in the following year. Telephone capital expenditure runs on.

417. Chairman.—There is a long list under “Losses”. While I appreciate the problems occurring for some time, is there a security problem involved, or are you taking cognisance of—I presume this is a fairly substantial increase—the robbery element? To what extent do you employ security personnel who could minimise the incidence of this kind of operation?

—There is obviously a security problem involved, one which gives us a great deal of concern. As the Committee will appreciate post offices are very open to that kind of robbery, being open for long hours. A lot of offices are situated in quite remote places. There are over 2,000 offices, all of which handle a fair amount of cash, sometimes quite large amounts of money, so there is a security problem. There is a security problem also in keeping them supplied with cash. We have taken quite a number of measures to try to reduce the losses and, more important, to protect the people employed who would be most at risk. In conjunction with the postmasters, the group most affected, we have taken quite a series of precautions—providing bullet-proof screens, alarms and various measures of that kind. We also, of course, try to carry out certain evasive tactics by arranging that money being sent to offices goes by different routes and providing police protection for the money en route and so on. It is a constant problem. We have increased our staff in an effort to strengthen our crime prevention measures.

418. Deputy Horgan.—In relation to the notes on page 156—Loss of Stores—I see that stores to the value of £53,246 were used in making good malicious damage and compensation only of £895 was received. Can the Department not recover greater amounts from the local authority by way of compensation for malicious damage under the ordinary malicious damages legislation or is that avenue not open to them?

—We do try to recover whatever we can but, of course, we are subject to the usual difficulties of establishing in court the nature of the damage and so on and meeting the legal requirements for recovering from the local authority.

419. As somebody who has a malicious damage claim pending myself, I understand that the situation is that a claim goes in and the local authority adjudicate and if it is obviously malicious damage they usually pay without any fuss. It is only in disputed cases that claims would go to court. It seems to me that in the case of vandalism and thefts from telephone kiosks, certainly the vandalism part of that could possibly be ascribed to malicious damage whereas the theft, of course, could not. Therefore they should be more easily recoverable items than appears in the balance of less than £1,000?

—That is true, but there is the point that, in relation to a lot of the damage that occurs to our kiosks, the individual items are fairly small—for instance, where somebody rips out a telephone. It would not be worthwhile trying to recover a lot of small items of about £2 or £3 from the local authority.

420. In relation to subhead A—Salaries, Wages and Allowances—although there is a large overall amount involved there is no particular explanation of the fact that there is £623,944 less than granted. Would that be due to industrial action, non-payment of wages or to failure to recruit staff?

—It is more a casual variation. It is a very large subhead to estimate accurately in advance. The variation is slightly over 0.5 per cent.

That is within the acceptable margin?

—Yes. If we get it within 5 per cent we regard ourselves as doing well.

421. Deputy Morley.—In relation to Extra Remuneration, the sum involved is very considerable, approaching £14 million. I appreciate the service possibly demands a considerable amount of overtime but this sum seems huge when you see it in cold print. Along with that I see that one officer was paid in excess of £8,500 for overtime. It is very difficult to see how an officer, after performing his normal duties, could perform efficiently for the length of time he would have to work to acquire £8,500 overtime in the year. I wonder if the Accounting Officer is satisfied that much of this duty performed on overtime could not be directed to staff that would be recruited by the Post Office?

—As far as possible we try to avoid extra attendance on overtime. A great deal of it is, however, inevitable in view of the kind of work we do. In a great many cases it is more economic to employ people on overtime than to bring in additional people. We would like to reduce the amount but we have found over the years that it is very difficult to do it. I think it is fair to say that the period in question was a particularly difficult one. We had industrial disputes and always when you try to restore services after an industrial dispute there is very heavy expenditure on overtime. In the last couple of years we found it required a great deal of overtime expenditure to get services back to normal afterwards. Apart from that, particularly on the telephone side, we have a lot of people who are on call to deal with breakdowns in services, particularly at telephone exchanges, and they are the people who build up these very large sums of money. The six or eight people at the top of our list of overtime earners are all people who are on call; they are specialist people with the kind of skill that is necessary to correct an exchange fault quickly and they are very frequently called. Each time they come out there is a minimum payment of three hours overtime. These arrangements are agreed with the staff. The amount of extra time actually worked by the person concerned might in some cases be comparatively small, but he gets paid for a minimum of three hours each time he turns out.

422. Would it not be possible instead of having six or eight to work towards the position where you would have 12 or 16 of those people?

—That is probably the correct course. It is fair to say, though, that in a lot of cases, particularly in telephone maintenance, we are quite short of the highly skilled technicians who can do the kind of work that has to be done in a hurry when, say, an exchange here in Dublin suddenly develops a serious fault.

423. Chairman.—What level of remuneration would a person have who would accumulate £8,500 on overtime?

—Somewhere around £6,000 to £8,000 or so. Overtime very rapidly becomes double time. A lot of these calls out are over the weekend and so on and rates of payment are quite high. I should add that the staff themselves attach great importance to the earning of overtime and we find in a lot of cases that the reaction to any proposal we have depends on the effect it is likely to have on overtime earnings.

424. Deputy Horgan.—On subhead H—International Conferences and Conventions—at what level within the Department are decisions taken about whether or not any particular conference or convention should be attended? About how many people would represent the Department there? Are you satisfied that there is adequate control of this kind of activity within the Department?

—The levels at which decisions would be taken would vary. In the case of very important meetings, where the official going there represents either the Department or the Government, the level would be very high, normally at Ministerial level and, in some cases, at Government level. In the case of less important meetings, a study group meeting or something like that, the decision would be at Secretary or Assistant Secretary level. As regards numbers attending, we do try to be economical. Certainly our representation at most of the conferences I have attended has been rather small compared with that of other similiarly sized countries.

The witness withdrew.

The Committee adjourned.

*See Appendix 10.

*See Appendix 11.

*See Appendix 11.