Committee Reports > List of Committees > Dáil > 1979 > Committee of Public Accounts > Interim and Final Report - Appropriation Accounts 1977

MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA

(Minutes of Evidence)

Dé Céadaoin, 20 Meitheamh 1979

Wednesday, 20th June 1979

The Committee met at 11 a.m.

DEPUTY O’TOOLE in the chair.

Mr. S. Mac Gearailt (An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste) called and examined.

VOTE 18—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE

Mr. S. Mac Gamhna called and examined.

346. Deputy Kenneally.—On subhead A.1.—Salaries, Wages and Allowances— £1.6 million was granted and the expenditure was £18,791 less than granted. Have you a full complement of staff or is your Department under-staffed?

—We are speaking about 1977. The answer is “yes” with the reservation that because of staff movements there would, at any given time, be a small number of vacancies but these would be in the course of being filled. Broadly speaking we have a near or full complement all the time.

347. Chairman.—On subhead A.2.—Consultancy Services—is it the situation that your Department carries out work on behalf of other Departments?

—This provision is to pay outside consultants whom we engage to carry out studies or investigations of a kind which we would not have expertise or time to do ourselves.

348. Did this service up to now concern your own Department specifically or other Departments?

—It would not necessarily concern our Department only.

349. On subhead F.—Gaeleagras na Seirbhíse Poiblí—it is obvious that you had intended to provide courses in Athlone and Castlebar but they fell through. I should like to know what is the present position with regard to such courses. Are they expanding? Are you happy with the situation?

—Gaeleagras is flourishing. They have a wide variety of activities at their headquarters in Merrion Square. Their courses are well attended. There is an incentive to attend in as much as people who can satisfactorily complete a course in Gaeleagras qualify for extra credit for promotion purposes. Apart from that, there is an interest in the language and the classes are well attended.

350. Deputy Kenneally.—On subhead H —Review Body on Remuneration in the Upper Ranges in the Public Sector—it appears that, of the £7,500 granted, only £2,400 was expended. I should be obliged if the Accounting Officer would elaborate on the note on that subhead which states “expenditure on specialist assistance to aid the Review Body did not arise as no major references were sent to the Body by the Government.”

—That was in relation to 1977 and it was not until the middle of 1978 that what we call a major reference was given to the Review Body to review the salaries of all the top echelons in the public sector. During 1977 the Review Body would have been dealing with some individual cases which were referred to them and they were able to do that with quite a small secretarial staff.

Chairman.—I do not wish to sound facetious but it might be a good idea to give them more than that in the hope that they might be more favourably disposed to the actual job in hand when it comes to the actual review of the remunerations of the higher echelons.

351. Deputy C. Murphy.—According to the Estimates for Public Services for 1976 the amount of money allocated under this subhead was £20,000. That amount was allocated in 1976, but of the £7,500 allocated for the year under review only £2,400 was spent. That seems to be a big drop.

—There was a big load of work on the Review Body in connection with the first general reference. I cannot recollect when they completed their work on that, but the amount of money allocated to the Review Body always depends on the amount of work foreseen for the Review Body during the course of that year. As the Review Body does this big exercise every so many years only, one will find these ups and downs in the moneys allocated to them.

352. Chairman.—In the current year would they be expending a fairly large sum of money?

—This year yes, though perhaps not as big as the amount they spent on the last general reference. I understand that the last time round they called in outside consultants to do some investigations for them which cost a lot of money. This time round they feel that they themselves have sufficient knowledge and expertise, and they are doing it on their own.

353. We come now to value of computer work done for other Public Departments. This Committee have had in the past some references from other Accounting Officers to problems with computerisation. Many of the questions we have been asking have elicited answers containing a certain amount of blame—computerisation has gone wrong or there are some teething troubles. What is the present position? Are you happy with the progress being made from your own point of view?

—Yes. There is a very big DPS computer installation located in Kilmainham. It is one of the three big computer installations in the Civil Service. It provides a service mostly for Departments other than the Department of the Public Service. In computer operations generally things never go 100 per cent smoothly. There are always problems of one kind or another, but broadly speaking we are satisfied with the operation of the Kilmainham computer and oustide Departments are loud in their praise and appreciation of what services they get from the Kilmainham computer. It is working very well.

354. I am not suggesting that there is a rash of complaints about the way computer work is being done. I am suggesting that in some areas there have been teething problems and it is to be hoped they will be ironed out. As you say, you will never reach a perfect stage.

—That is so. It is continually changing.

355. Deputy Woods.—In relation to the value of computer work done for other Public Departments, do you have any yardstick by which you can compare the cost of this with the cost of having this work done on a normal computer service outside? A number of commercial services are being availed of increasingly by administrative and commercial organisations. Have you any means of comparison? It may be too early at this stage to make comparisons.

—Yes. Frequently when a job has to be done it is a question of deciding whether it would be feasible to take it on the Kilmainham computer or whether it would be better to give it out to a commercial firm. In some cases it is obvious that it can be accommodated on the Civil Service computer when time is available. In other instances where it might mean enlarging the computer configuration, the question of making comparisons does arise. Where necessary, preliminary estimates are got from outside concerns as to what roughly would be the cost of having it done. In the light of these figures it is decided whether it would be better to put it on the Civil Service computer or to let it go outside.

356. Are these preliminary estimates which would suggest that at the outset there should be an initiation of the programme?

—Yes.

357. Are deviations tested subsequently at any stage?

—They keep a very rigorous system of costing in Kilmainham and they are able to say in relation to any job just how the cost turned out and what was estimated at the beginning. It may turn out to be more expensive than was estimated. On the other hand, if one gives it to an outside firm one never knows whether they would also find unexpected problems arising for which under the terms of the contract they too would be entitled to charge extra.

358. Is that an item which is reviewed regularly in practice?

—Yes.

359. Would individual Departments themselves be conscious of this? Obviously they have to make this transfer, in any event, referring to this cost in their own account.

—No, it is without repayment, so the individual Departments themselves do not have to worry about it. These are costings that are kept in Kilmainham of the work done by Departments, but there is no point in taking money from one pocket and putting it into the other. For Government Departments there is no charge.

360. I appreciate that, but do they allow it in their management accounts?

—Do you mean the individual Departments?

Yes.

—I could not speak for them.

361. If they were not allowing it in their individual management accounts the figure could drift in relation to commercial norms.

—It is the Kilmainham people who would keep an eye on costings.

362. Do they try to ensure that their costings are in line with the normal?

—In line with the known commercial ones, yes.

363. I was wondering on what basis they are compared.

—This costing is getting a great deal of attention.

VOTE 19—CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION

Mr. S. Mac Gamhna further examined.

364. Chairman.—On subhead D—Examinations—the sum includes advertising. Do you get special rates from the media in general for advertising or are you asked to pay higher rates by them in the knowledge that you must advertise? Do you get normal commercial rates or cut rates?

—I could not speak with certainty on that. My impression is that there are favourable terms because of the large amount of advertising, but I would not want to bind myself to that as an exact answer. I can get the answer if the Committee wish.

365. It would be interesting. In other areas of commercial interest, for example auctioneering, they charge above the normal commercial rate simply because they know the advertiser must advertise. It is not necessarily true that because of the volume of advertising favourable rates are received.

—They may give a special rate because there is a regularity about Civil Service Commission advertising. It always appears on a Wednesday and this is deliberate. The newspapers know this in advance. However, I could not answer the question with precision.

366. Deputy V. Brady.—What is the position in relation to radio advertising? Do RTE give special rates?

—This question was asked last year. Up to 1969 there was no charge, but since then a charge has been made. I assume it is the ordinary rate.

367. Would it be possible to obtain this information?

—Certainly.

Chairman.—Perhaps you would submit a note of that information.*

368. Deputy C. Murphy.—As public representatives we regularly hear of delays in appointments being made by the Local Appointments Commission. Certain moneys are voted for these appointments and the matter then rests with the Local Appointments Commission. Dental, engineering and other vacancies are left unfilled. Have you any control over the speeding up of the process? Would moneys be saved by such a speeding up?

—This kind of criticism has always been made against the Civil Service Commission and the Local Appointments Commission. People are mystified because it takes so long to fill vacancies. At first sight it seems a state of affairs which is susceptible of being remedied by firm and resolute action. When one comes closer to the problem and sees what is involved in the selection process, one sees that many aspects are outside the control of the Commissions. I will give some examples. Frequently the candidate who is placed first has doubts about taking the job or may be difficult to contact; he may have changed his address or gone to England. The Commission feel obliged to give a reasonable length of time for the candidate to decide. He may withdraw his application after the Commission have spent a considerable time checking references and medically examining him and this time is absolutely lost. The Commission must start all over again. It sometimes happens that an interview board is set up and no candidate is found suitable. Sometimes it is difficult for the Commission to get the members of an interview board together at the same time. Board members give their services free and this example of public spiritedness is to be commended. Businessmen and professional people give up their time to sit on these boards. They cannot be dragooned to attend on a certain date at a certain time. I have had the experience of individual cases where I found it incredible that the process should have taken so long, but in every instance I was completely satisfied that the delays were outside the control of the Commission. It is interesting that sometimes outside Departments or State bodies criticise the Commission while they themselves take just as long to fill vacancies they advertise. I hope I have made it clear what the real difficulties are—difficulties which are encountered by any recruiting body or agency.

369. Is there any on-going study of shortcuts which could be undertaken to speed up these appointments? Has there been a critical analysis of the system?

—Yes. Time and time again there have been investigations both by the Commission and by outside investigators such as the efficiency experts in the Management Services section of the Department of the Public Service. Over the past five years the management services experts have done at least two full-scale examinations of the procedures in the Commission to see how shortcuts could be achieved. Frequently people are called for appointment before the full process of clearance has been completed. This cannot be overdone because if something is discoverd to a person’s detriment it is not easy to dislodge him once he is in a post. I believe everything possible has been done to cut corners.

VOTE 20—SUPERANNUATION AND RETIRED ALLOWANCES

Mr. S. Mac Gamhna further examined.

370. Chairman.—On Extra Remuneration—sums ranging from £320 to £8,842 were received by eigthy-nine pensioners for services rendered. The sum of £8,842 is fairly hefty. What kind of services would be rendered in these circumstances?

—I am just looking through my brief, Chairman. I do not seem to have any specific note on it.

I just want it in general.

—In general, it frequently happens that someone retires after a lifetime of service in some speciality where there is on-going work still to be completed. It would be extremely difficult for somebody else to master the task even if he had some years to do it. It is usually to complete some job or to come back for a short while after retirement to give advice or to act as a consultant in his particular expert field. This is the normal kind of case where you find payments being made to a pensioner.

371. Deputy C. Murphy.—On the question of marriage gratuities to female officers, I may be wrong, but I understand this form of gratuity was introduced on the basis that a female officer was paid considerably less than a male officer. What about equal pay?

—It has nothing whatever to do with that. Basically we made an agreement with the staff associations about marriage gratuities and this was promulgated in a circular in August 1975. Girls already in the service continued to be eligible for a marriage gratuity but girls appointed from any competition advertised after 1 February 1974 would not be eligible for a marriage gratuity except on certain conditions. It is an extremely complicated circular and to simplify it for the Committee I would say this: There is a principle here that you cannot get a pension or a gratuity of two kinds in respect of the same period of service. What used to happen in the old times when a girl had to resign on marriage was that after six or seven years she got a gratuity, and that was the end of that. The change in the marriage gratuity came about, not as a result of equal pay, but as a result of the removal of the marriage bar when a girl did not have to resign on marriage and she might make a career in the Civil Service. You could pay her a marriage gratuity but, if you did that, when it came to her pension time, the number of years for which she got the marriage gratuity obviously could not be allowed to be reckoned. The simplest thing was to abolish the marriage gratuity once the girl had the opportunity to remain in the Civil Service till the end of her days and to pay her pension by reference to all her service. That is as simply as I can put it. The change in the marriage gratuity had nothing to do with equal pay.

372. Deputy Belton.—On subhead H.— Pensions to Resigned and Dismissed Royal Irish Constabulary, including Widows— there is a note which reads: “With dwindling numbers it is increasingly difficult to forecast the proportion of deaths.” I would imagine the reverse would be true. With reduced numbers it would be easier to forecast?

—If there were only two and one died, you could be 50 per cent out.

373. Surely there is a fixed amount?

—The absolute amounts are small. In all questions of insurance the principle of large numbers applies. You can make better forecasts if the numbers are very big.

Chairman.—The fact is that they are dwindling.

374. Deputy C. Murphy.—On Extra Remuneration on page 50 there is a note: “Eighty-nine pensioners received from public funds sums ranging from £320 to £8,842 as remuneration for services rendered.” Those receiving £8,842 would be highly specialised obviously. They would be brought back because of their competence in particular fields?

—It is exactly the kind of case I mentioned as the classic example where extra remuneration is paid.

VOTE 51—REMUNERATION

Mr. S. Mac Gamhna called.

No question.

The witness withdrew.

MINUTE OF THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE ON THE COMMITTEE’S REPORT (Paragraphs 6 and 7) ON THE APPROPRIATION ACCOUNTS, 1976*

Mr. D. Ó Laoghaire called and examined.

375. Chairman.—The Minister’s Minute on paragraph 6—Scheme of Adaptation and Extension for a National Teacher Training College—states:

… The Minister understands that the final cost to the State of the separate kitchen/restaurant contract was £397,167 including professional fees, and the total cost of the contract including fees was £1,097,631 …

Has the final account been cleared?

—It has now.

376. On Paragraph 7—Local Contributions towards Capital Costs of Community Schools—what progress has been made? There are still some outstanding points under negotiation.

—Yes. There are some outstanding points under the deed of trust which the Minister was hoping would be completed before the end of this school year.

Thankfully that is a matter which does not concern this Committee. That completes any reference I wish to make to the Finance Minute in relation to your votes.

VOTE 29—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION

Mr. D. Ó Laoghaire further examined.

377. On subhead B.2—Research Activities—can you give some idea of what activities are in progress?

—These are divided into research administered by our own planning section in the Department, the transition year project in the secondary schools, the Irish studies and the Nua-Chúrsa Gaeilge which was met by the training section. The funds available are allocated to university departments, research agencies and other groups to do specific research projects. There is a departmental committee which considers the research applications and reviews the progress. It is a condition of all the awards that a copy of the report of any research project should be forwarded to the Department before publication. Some of the projects that have been going on are on social and environmental studies which have been done through the comprehensive school at Shannon. There is a music project at the Mount Temple School. There is a project on the standardisation of adult intelligence scales. There is a public examinations evaluation project and there are a number of others. The total amount involved is of the order of £70,000.

378. On the question of grants-in-aid you have listed under subheads G.1 to G.20 different areas of activity where these grants are being made. Is there a change there or what is the present position?

—G.17 is the grant—

I am talking about the grants-in-aid and the different subheads generally. There are some new items like the Grant-in-Aid Fund for Youth Employment.

—There was a proposal† that a number of them should be aggregated.

379. Are you quite happy with the present position with regard to the accounting form?

—Generally yes, but we usually consult the Department of Finance before we aggregate these and the Department of Finance have to be satisfied, too. In many cases the aggregation would be really only a matter of convenience because we would have to deal with the individual grants anyway and satisfy ourselves that the money was properly expended. The amount of individual grants would always be listed.

380. Under Grants-in-Aid you have the item “Grant-in-Aid Fund for Youth Employment”. That is something new. What area does that cover? Is anybody apart from yourselves involved in this overseeing or supervision of administration?

—It is the area which comes under the Minister of State departmentally. The funds are usually allocated with the co-ordination of the Department of Economic Planning and Development. The expenditure of them and the actual insertion of them into the Estimates involves the Department of Finance as well. On the youth employment side at the moment it involves the employment of about 385 young workers for something of the order of 5,700 work weeks and the total amount spent was £286,236 in 1977.

381. Deputy Belton.—Is this scheme operated in conjunction with the local authorities?

—Yes.

382. Chairman.—That is the reason I asked the question. Is it not rather difficult for you? You are the Accounting Officer accountable for the expenditure of this money but your control over its expenditure is diminished by the delegation of responsibility down along the line.

—This operates in relation to practically everything that happens in the Department. There has to be delegation of responsibility down along the line for actual expenditures.

383. Here you are crossing lines into other Departments.

—Not necessarily into other Departments. The amount allocated to us is expended through the Department of Education. The Minister of State’s section oversees this. Some of it is done through operation of the local authorities and some through groups of youth workers and sports organisations and in various other ways. Anything that comes through the Department of Education has to be controlled in the ordinary way in relation to its expenditure.

384. Deputy C. Murphy.—Before we leave Vote 29 I want to ask in general terms about the National Library and the National Museum. My understanding is that the Accounting Officer’s responsibility would be more or less towards the stock within rather than the buildings themselves. The buildings themselves would be entrusted to the Board of Works. I have had considerable complaints and queries and even memoranda from various people stating that they are not happy with the National Library per se, the National Museum and also other buildings where various reference historical documents are kept. They all seem to be in buildings which are not really on a par with many of the buildings in Europe. Is it a direct responsibility of the Department of Education to invest in these buildings or should I inquire through the Office of Public Works.

—I am afraid we have to plead guilty.

385. Do you plead guilty then to this one? One talks of art and culture and people come over to this county to undertake investigation and research into historical manuscripts, documents and so on. The buildings housing these documents are not really at par. Is there any plan to try to improve our cultural image?

—When I say that we have to plead guilty, the administration of the National Museum and the National Library come under the Department of Education and we have always assumed responsibility for them. When it comes to actual building work we are to some extent in the hands of the Board of Works, but it is our job to prepare the plans and keep on pressing for the execution of them. We have had a consultant in relation to the National Library, Mr. Humphries, and he had fairly expansive plans in relation to the National Library, some of which have been implemented by the acquisition of buildings down along Kildare Street. In relation to the National Museum we have also been endeavouring to get additional buildings for them. There is the other premises in Merrion Row in which an exhibition was held recently and it is a very valuable addition to the National Museum. On top of that we had for a long time been looking forward to getting the Royal Hospital at Kilmainham for museum purposes but the Government made a different decision in relation to the Royal Hospital some time ago and we have to look in other directions now. Again, this comes into the area of the Minister of State. The former Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Bruton, and the present Minister of State, Deputy Tunney, are both very concerned about the conditions obtaining in both the National Museum and the National Library. We have been trying to improve them but it is a very heavy drain on finances sometimes and, unfortunately, when any period of stringency comes along, culture seems to be the easiest mark.

386. Fair enough, we have the National Museum and the National Library, but are there not other buildings where people would go checking for historical records?

—The Genealogical Office is part of the National Library.

387. Is there a notice on the door there referring people to some other building?

—That is right.

388. Surely that is not good enough for people who come over here in search of specialist information and knowledge and wishing to pursue study programmes.

—We are quite satisfied that we should be doing better in this area, but people seem to be able to find these places because the income from genealogical research and all these fields is up on previous years.

389. Many more people have become interested in this subject because there is so little to hold on to in the present day. I should like to see a new building which would be a front for our culture. I know of the goodwill of Deputies Bruton and Tunney and others who have held that office. Expenditure would be involved and I feel justified in raising the subject.

—We are glad of all the support we can get in that area.

Chairman.—It would be wrong to depend on increased enthusiasm on the part of the person seeking the knowledge. Such enthusiasm might not last forever.

VOTE 30—PRIMARY EDUCATION

Mr. D. Ó Laoghaire further examined.

390. Chairman.—On subhead C.6—Aid towards the Cost of School Books—are you happy with the present format for investigating the eligibility of recipients of this type of aid? It seems to throw up some anomalies. The onus is put on people on whom it should not be put. The teacher is in a rather invidious position.

—The system has worked reasonably well. The people on whom the onus is put may find themselves in an invidious position but they are in the best position to know the family circumstances and who are the deserving cases. If we were to think in terms of using some of the officers of the Department or setting up some special machinery, more money might be spent on administration than on the actual provision of books. It is agreed that it is not the best possible system, but our anxiety is to spend all we get. We usually find ourselves with a saving we do not want.

391. I am not suggesting that you should employ special personnel. It has been suggested that people in receipt of other State assistance should qualify.

—We examined this on a number of occasions and it was suggested at one time that everyone who had a blue card should qualify. We found that the criteria for the distribution of blue cards and the criteria for looking at necessity in other cases are not quite the same as would be involved here. If we were adopting a simple yardstick we could be presenting the Department of Finance with a much bigger bill. It would be more difficult to control expenditure. When the sum of money is fixed we must try to find the most equitable means of distribution.

392. Someone must have discretionary powers?

—We give certain guidelines but in the last analysis it is a matter of interpretation.

393. Deputy Belton.—Is it possible that children of higher income families living in a lower class area might qualify for free books while those in greater need might not qualify? This could happen if a certain amount, were given to each school.

—We try to avoid anomalies like that. We know from experience where the need is. We get proposals from the schools.

394. There have been complaints from parents of children who are not as well off as others.

—We assess the needs of the school as well as the needs of the individual.

395. I am sure there have been many representations for an increase in capitation grants?

—Yes. We are never short of applications for increases.

VOTE 31—SECONDARY EDUCATION

Mr. D. Ó Laoghaire further examined.

396. Chairman.—Paragraph 22 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Subhead H.1.— Comprehensive and Community Schools—Running Costs

During a local audit at a comprehensive school it was noted that an agricultural science project involving the purchase and sale of livestock was being carried out on twelve acres of land adjacent to the school and I inquired regarding the instructions issued to the school for the control of the project with particular regard to the sales of livestock and farm produce.

The Accounting Officer has informed me that special instructions regarding the control of the project had not been issued to the school concerned which is the only comprehensive or community school with such facilities for the teaching of agricultural science. He also stated that separate accounts were not being kept for the project but that all transactions appear in the monthly accounts furnished by the school.”

Mr. Mac Gearailt.—This paragraph deals with the control of the financial transactions relating to an agricultural science project involving the purchase and sale of livestock and the sale of farm produce. In view of the unusual nature of this school project I would have thought that special instructions in addition to the general instructions might have been issued in regard to such matters as purchasing procedures, stock records, stock valuations and so on. As indicated in the paragraph the Accounting Officer states that all transactions relating to the project appear in the monthly accounts furnished by the school. As these accounts are in the form of receipts and payments accounts they would not normally contain any details of the values of livestock or other farm assets on hands, information which I would consider essential for the satisfactory monitoring by the Department of the financial implications of the project.

397. Chairman.—Was this kind of farm activity envisaged at comprehensive school level?

—The land was available and it was felt by people there that this would add to the value of the school. What the Comptroller and Auditor General has said was not stated in the report and I was assuming that what we had said was satisfactory. We have not the slightest objection to having a special account and we would organise on that basis.

398. The monthly account would be the normal school account?

—Yes, but it shows all the transactions relating to the farm as well. If the Comptroller and Auditor General feels it would be better to have a special account for the farm project we would be only too happy to organise on that basis.

399. That is fine. The reason some kind of formal procedure should be established in this instance is that you could conceivably have a situation in a year’s time or in five years’ time where a comprehensive school could be going into the fishing industry possibly or fish farming. It is a very laudable suggestion that they might do these things if they have facilities for them. If you had established some formal procedure for having separate accounts in these instances, it would probably tidy up the thing and give a better idea of their operation and accountability for their operation to you?

—We will organise it on that basis. This is the only one at the moment. The Glenties school is the only one which has this project at present.

400. Paragraph 23 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“The instructions issued by the Department of Education to Boards of Management of comprehensive and community schools provide for the maintenance of adequate financial records and contain approved procedures for the signing of cheques drawn on school accounts. In the course of local audits carried out by my officers at seven comprehensive and community schools it was noted that in five schools adequate financial records were not being maintained and that the procedures for the signing of cheques prescribed in the Department’s instructions were not being observed in two schools.

The Accounting Officer has informed me that the schools concerned have been directed to adhere to the Department’s instructions in these matters and that officers of the Department will keep in contact with the schools with a view to ensuring that records are properly maintained.”

Mr. Mac Gearailt.—This paragraph refers to the failure of certain schools to adhere to departmental instructions regarding financial procedures. As stated in the paragraph, the Accounting Officer informed me that the schools concerned had since been asked to adhere to those instructions.

401. Chairman.—I see some progress has been made there. What is the present position with regard to the number of schools?

—We are maintaining contact with the schools to make sure those instructions are carried out.

You are quite happy about them?

—Yes.

402. Paragraph 24 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Subhead H.2—Secondary, Comprehensive and Community Schools Building Grants and Capital Costs

It was noted that the cost of erecting and equipping a school building at Clifden, County Galway was financed by loans obtained by the local Vocational Education Committee from the Local Loans Fund. It appears that the original intention was that this building would be used for vocational school purposes but before construction commenced it was decided that it would be used for community school purposes. However, as the local Vocational Education Committee had already purchased the site and arranged for the necessary planning, it was agreed that it would pay for the erection of the school building and be reimbursed by the Department out of Subhead H.2. of this Vote, thus enabling the Committee to repay the loans to the Local Loans Fund. While the school has operated as a community school since opening, the running costs being met from Subhead H.1. of this Vote, the Vocational Education Committee continues to be reimbursed from the Vote for Vocational Education in respect of loan repayments made to the Local Loans Fund. The result is that the capital cost of this school is a continuing charge on the Vote for Vocational Education instead of being charged to Subhead H.2. of this Vote. The Accounting Officer has informed me that it is intended to adjust the position in relation to the capital cost of this school when the final cost has been ascertained.”

Mr. Mac Gearailt.—This paragraph refers to the continued charging of the capital cost of a community school to Vote 32—Vocational Education, instead of Vote 31—Secondary Education, the Vote in which provision for the capital cost of such schools is made by Dáil Eireann. The unusual circumstances which gave rise to this position are outlined in the paragraph. As stated, it is intended to adjust the matter when the final cost of the school has been ascertained. However, as any charge in the account of a closed year must remain indelible, I assume that such adjustments will only be made from a current date.

403. Chairman.—Some of these loans have been repaid. You probably must commence at a specific date when you have cleared the accounts?

—Yes.

404. What do you propose to do? What is the present position?

—When the final cost is available we propose to charge the amounts appropriate in so far as we can do that. The circumstances here were a bit unusual. It is really a technical business whether you put it into this account or that account. The amount of money is the same in either case and the charge is clear. It is a question of dividing it. We have the problem in a number of these cases that it was not clear at the beginning whether these schools would be community schools, vocational schools or secondary schools. The financing of them from World Bank loans was on the basis that they would be community schools. We will certainly make the necessary adjustments in the accounts when the final costs are available.

From a specific date?

—Yes.

405. Paragraph 25 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“An examination by my officers of departmental files relating to the acquisition of sites for comprehensive and community schools revealed that, out of a total of forty-six sites acquired, registration of the Minister’s title could not be verified in twenty-three cases. In five of these cases the sales had been closed for more than two years and in nine others the relevant files gave no indication whether the sales had been closed or not. The Accounting Officer has informed me that consultation is taking place with the Chief State Solicitor’s Office in regard to registration of title and closure of sale.

A permanent record of comprehensive and community school properties in which the Minister has an interest is not maintained in the Department but I have been assured by the Accounting Officer that arrangements are now being made for the setting up and maintenance of a departmental property register.”

Mr. Mac Gearailt.—This paragraph draws attention to the delay in the registration of the Minister’s title to the sites of a number of comprehensive and community schools. As stated, out of a total of 46 such sites acquired, registration of title could not be verified in 23 cases at the date of my report. Further information given to me recently by the Department of Education indicates that, of these 23 cases, sales have now been closed and titles registered in eight cases; sales have been closed but titles remain unregistered in 13 cases and, in the remaining two cases, the sales have not yet been closed.

406. Chairman.—I presume this is improving as time goes on. You are coming to grips with the register of titles?

—Yes. The legal formalities in some of these cases take a bit of time. Ideally one should not put up a building until everything is cleared but, when you have the children waiting, it is very difficult to allow the legal formalities to hold up everything.

407. Would it be possible legally that you find yourself having built a school unable to gain title to the property? Is that a legal possibility?

—Anything is possible, but we usually try to get the legal people to avoid a situation like that.

408. You are happy that you are making progress?

—We are trying as fast as we can. There are legal complications and in the last analysis we have to depend on the Attorney General’s and the Chief State Solicitor’s Offices to complete the formalities for us.

There is no solicitor present. All I can say is that normally they move very slowly.

409. On subhead D.—Publication of Irish Text Books—we are all aware of the ongoing complaints for many years in relation to the non-availability of suitable text books and reading material generally in Irish. Do you commission publication of text books with particular publishers or what is your approach?

—Some of these text books were first produced through An Gúm. Four text books were produced by An Gúm in that year. Two of those were done within the Department on eolaíocht talmhaíochta. The other two were by independent authors but published through An Gúm. One was on mathematics and the other was on geography. Five books were also published through private publishers in that year mostly by one firm, Cló Cois Fharraige. The initiative comes in various ways. Sometimes it will come from people who suggest texts. Sometimes it comes from inspectors or officers of the Department who feel there is a need for texts. Then it is taken up through An Gúm. In the five cases it comes from the private publishers who produce to meet the market as they see it. We had one book in 1977, the atlas, which was to be fairly expensive. It did not proceed as quickly as expected and so it did not come out in 1977. It has come out since.

410. You mention An Gúm. You had some old titles in stock. I recall that you were to dispose of those. What is the present position with stock of old titles?

—There are still some old titles in stock. There is a slight sale for some of these all the time.

411. On Appropriations in Aid—Examination fees of students—is the level of the fees reviewed from time to time or what criteria are used? Is it the consumer price index or is there a regular review?

—There is a review practically every year. Examinations are becoming so expensive now that the pressure is towards reviewing the fees all the time. We are, this year, thinking in terms of a substantial increase in the fees.

412. Deputy Belton.—The amount estimated for the sale of Irish text books was £5,000 and the amount realised was £547. That is a big drop.

—There is a further point in regard to that. Some of the sales which should have been received within the year did not come to us from the Stationery Office until January 1978. The transfer of money to us was delayed. We do not get any interest.

413. Chairman.—There are students who fail to get specific texts in Irish. You may have some in stock and perhaps if you advertised the fact that there were some in An Gúm it might result in inquiries being made.

—The stocks are in the Stationery Office and not in An Gúm. We retain an interest in pushing them to advertise as much as possible and to deal with inquiries. We advertise in Irish magazines and journals to indicate that these are available.

414. Deputy Belton.—Children trying to get text books are sent here, there and everywhere. About half the books are not in existence, more of them are out of print. Is there no way this can be cleared up? Forty or 50 years ago they were supplied by the schools. Now there are different places in town to go to. I have gone out to Dún Laoghaire, to Greene’s, Hanna’s and elsewhere for them. The year is nearly half over before children can get all of their books.

—It is a reflection on the fact that we do not have the limited number of texts and prescribed texts that we used to have. Schools are given a lot of liberty in selecting texts. We tell them that they should not change too often in the interests of the children. It is something that is really in the hands of the schools and publishers.

415. Very often what is given as the official book is out of print. One would imagine that they should know not to prescribe one that is out of print.

Chairman.—The Accounting Officer is not responsible for that.

Deputy Belton.—It is happening year after year.

VOTE 32—VOCATIONAL EDUCATION

Mr. D. Ó Laoghaire called.

No question.

VOTE 33—RESIDENTIAL HOMES AND SPECIAL SCHOOLS

Mr. D. Ó Laoghaire further examined.

416. Chairman.—In the case of residential homes are we talking about education for retarded pupils?

—There are different categories. There are those committed by the courts, those placed there by the Health Boards for whom the Health Boards pay and those placed in homes by private arrangement. They are not necessarily people with learning difficulties but who are disadvantaged in various ways. Those with learning difficulties or educational problems would be in special primary schools rather than in residential homes.

417. Deputy Belton.—Does that include Loughan House?

—No. That comes under another Department. We have Lusk and Finglas.

418. Chairman.—On Subhead D— Parental Moneys—Collection Expenses— what is involved here?

—It is a declining item. These are contributions on foot of court orders that have been made on committal. They are collected in some cases by the Garda Síochána. The number of cases in which committal orders are made and orders for support by parents has declined considerably. It is a very small item now.

I appreciate the accuracy with which you present your accounts but £29 is a very small sum.

—It is related to the amount which is entered in committal orders and the amount collected.

It will probably die out in time?

—Yes.

VOTE 34—HIGHER EDUCATION

Mr. D. Ó Laoghaire called.

No question.

The witness withdrew.

The Committee adjourned.

*see appendix 6

*see appendix 2

†see appendix 9