Committee Reports > List of Committees > Dáil > 1979 > Committee of Public Accounts > Interim and Final Report - Appropriation Accounts 1977

MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA

(Minutes of Evidence)

Dé Céadaoin, 13 Meitheamh, 1979

Wednesday, 13th June, 1979

The Committee met at 11 a.m.

DEPUTY O’TOOLE in the chair.

Mr. S. Mac Gearailt(An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste)called and examined.

VOTE 22—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR JUSTICE

Mr. A. Ward called and examined.

228. Chairman.—On subhead A.2—Consultancy Services—you mentioned on the last occasion that the report had been completed. Has it been completed and has the finance end of it been finalised?

—The answer to both is “yes”.

229. What is the total cost?

—I cannot say, offhand. I can send you a note.* This is a consultancy service for the Garda Síochána.

230. Deputy N. Andrews.—On subhead A.1.—Salaries, Wages and Allowances— expenditure was £120,350 less than granted. What are the reasons?

—There were delays in filling vacancies during the year.

231. What kind of vacancies?

—It can arise both at recruitment and promotion levels. For instance, if it had been for promotion to the grade of Higher Executive Officer there could have been a delay because of an agreement with the staff association as to how the vacancies should be filled. There might have to be an intake from other Departments, there might have to be interview boards, people may have to be taken from established panels. There could also have been delays in regard to recruitment. There are such delays at the moment because of the postal strike, to give an example of what can happen.

232. Under the heading “Extra Receipts Payable to Exchequer”, there is a figure of £2,794 in respect of fees for nationality and citizenship certificates. How many such certificates are involved?

—The fee is £20 in the vast majority of cases, so there would have been more than 100. Occasionally there is a £2 fee when a person is married to an Irish citizen.

233. Deputy Kenneally.—Under subhead I—Grants to Adoption Societies—what are the factors taken into account in calculating these grants? Could you elaborate on the note in respect of the variation between expenditure and grant?

—The factors taken into account include the employment of professional social workers. That is a major factor in the grant. However, it also covers seventy-five per cent of the cost of travelling expenses of social workers employed by the societies. That could vary and it has to be estimated in advance. There is also an element of the grant that is based on the number of cases handled during the year and that also has to be estimated in advance. The elements representing travelling expenses and case loads are the major reason for the variations.

234. Chairman.—There is a note at the bottom of page 53 in regard to ex-gratia payments of £1,155 and £3,920 as counsel fees. In which circumstances were these payments made?

—The payment of fees under the legal aid scheme is governed by the Legal Aid Regulations which provide for up to two counsel. In a small number of court cases a third counsel would have been assigned—possibly two senior and one junior. The regulations did not and still do not provide for that, but because the courts assign extra counsel, the legal advice is that this is done in recognition of people’s constitutional rights and therefore that there is no option but to pay. Payments are described as ex-gratia in the sense that they are not provided for in the regulations but are made under Department of Finance sanction. This sanction in turn is linked with the legal advice that the payments have to be made.

VOTE 23—GARDA SÍOCHÁNA

Mr. A. Ward further examined.

235. Chairman.—Paragraph 18 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Road Fund Suspense Account

A notice issued to a motorist under Section 103 of the Road Traffic Act, 1961 in respect of an alleged traffic offence represents an option offered to him either to pay a prescribed amount, in which case he will not be prosecuted for the alleged offence, or, if he fails to make the payment, to remain liable to prosecution. It was noted in the course of audit that in a number of cases, in which the prescribed amounts had not been paid, the relevant notices had not been duly processed before the time limit for the issue of a summons had elapsed and as a result no further action could be taken. I sought the observations of the Accounting Officer. He informed me that the estimated numbers of Section 103 notices not followed up in the years 1974, 1975 and 1976 were as follows:

He stated that in some of the cases in question, the Garda Síochána and/or local authority staff involved were unable, because of pressure of other work, to get to the stage of sending a request to the registration authority for the name of the registered owner before the six-months time limit for the issue of a summons had elapsed. In other cases they sent such requests—after initial delays of various periods—but the registration authorities concerned did not (for reasons understood to be related to their own priorities) respond sufficiently quickly to enable the matter to be taken further. While these two groups, taken together, account for the great majority of cases not followed up, there were some cases where changes of car ownership, etc., caused delays with similar results.

As far as delays involving Garda offices (as distinct from Registration offices) are concerned, the two main factors involved were:

(a)The need to give priority to other work and, specifically, work related to public security and the prevention and detection of serious crime; in that context, restrictions on Garda overtime introduced in mid-1975 meant that less manpower was available for work of the kind in question and

(b)Dublin Corporation staff, on the instructions of their union, refused to continue to work in Store Street Garda Station on the grounds that the accommodation there was not up to the standard they required. This refers to staff working on “follow up” procedure, not staff attached to the Corporation’s Motor Registration Office.

The Accounting Officer added that all possible action had been taken by his Department to seek an improvement in the position which had been unsatisfactory. In Dublin where the main problem arises a new central office had been opened and the Dublin Corporation staff had resumed work in conjunction with the Gardaí; in Limerick the work had been taken over by the Corporation and other steps had been taken in other areas. In the longer term proposals for computerisation were being examined.

As the expenditure of public moneys on the issue of Section 103 notices which subsequently are not duly processed could be regarded as nugatory I have deemed it desirable to draw attention to the matter.”

Mr. Mac Gearailt.—The paragraph draws attention to the failure to process duly notices issued to motorists under section 103 of the 1961 Road Traffic Act. The explanation given by the Accounting Officer for the failure is included in summary in the paragraph.

236. Chairman.—What is the present position?

—For all practical purposes all such cases are being followed up now. There will never be a situation in which all of them will be followed up, but we are nearly as close as is practicable to their all being followed up. In recent months and weeks there has been a new situation because Dublin Corporation have decided to opt out altogether, and Cork Corporation are doing the same. Most of the references in the paragraph to Corporation staff and so on will not arise in the future because the Corporation will be out of it.

237. So the position is now satisfactory. It would seem that there might be a danger the regulations would be brought into disrepute?

—If it were a substantial proportion of the total and if it extended over a period, yes. If it existed on a scale when motorists began to ignore fines knowing that they stood a good chance of getting away with it, the situation clearly would be unsatisfactory. The situation has been brought under control.

238. Deputy N. Andrews.—On Subhead A.1.—Salaries, Wages and Allowances— there is a saving of £829,024. The explanation given in the note is that a sum was received from the Vote for Remuneration. Can we have a fuller explanation of this?

—This is one of those purely factual statements to indicate the amount received during the year from that other Vote. It is a common thing when salaries and wages are being increased under general pay reviews. The normal Estimate for a Department or, in this case, the Garda, usually could not cater for a general pay round, so a supplement is provided to meet the increases. The note given in connection with the subhead is not intended to be an explanation even though it appears under the heading “Explanation”. Putting it there is the conventional form. As regards the explanation of the under-spending, it is a small percentage of the total—less than two per cent.

239. Chairman.—On Appropriations-in-Aid, has the Road Fund not been finished?

—Yes, with effect from the end of that year.

240. What is the current position in regard to the revenue that accrued to you from the Road Fund? Is there a loss? I know the Department of the Environment are involved.

—This will not be there in future as far as we are concerned. I do not think it makes any difference to us. For the most part— from our point of view—it is a book-keeping matter. Other aspects of it would really be a matter for the Department of the Environment.

241. Deputy N. Andrews.—On Subhead H—Equipment—I note that for this year the expenditure was £414,764 less than granted. I understand that this was due to the fact that expenditure on radio equipment was less than anticipated. I should like to know how this arises again—I raised this matter also last year—if the accounting system is supposed to be reasonably accurate and if there is a need for better equipment in the Garda Force?

—There is one difference between the account for this year and that for the previous year. This year there is a clear-cut situation in that the entire saving was in relation to radio; it was a more complex situation last year because a variety of other equipment was involved. One problem about radio with the Garda Síochána is that they use a wide variety of it. I do not mean that there is a failure to standardise or anything of that kind but the nature of the work of the Garda Síochána is such that they need a great variety of equipment. This, in turn, means that suppliers often do not have supplies in stock, they may even have to build it when needed. When advice is given to the Garda Síochána by technical experts as to what is useful and so on, tenders are sought. At that time money has to be provided in the Estimates on the assumption that the equipment will be made available in what is thought to be a reasonable time. Very often it does not become available in that time because it takes longer to produce. For example, included under the saving referred to by the Deputy is money in respect of equipment that was originally estimated for in 1975 but which was still not delivered in 1977. We are in a situation where radio in the Garda Síochána is expanding rapidly and where there is no accumulation of experience as to how long it will take to get new equipment. When the way is cleared to buy certain things it has to be put into the Estimate but it may not be delivered within that year; it may not be delivered within the following year. There is always likely to be a substantial gap between what is there and what is actually spent. Unfortunately, that is likely to continue because we are in a situation where expenditure on Garda radio equipment is going to expand very much further in the years ahead. We will be talking in terms of millions over the next several years. It is difficult to see how this problem of a gap can be avoided when we are talking about equipment which, in fact, has to be designed in many cases. What I have said is a substantial part of the explanation but there was also a matter of difficulty in getting hill-top sites for aerials cleared for the Garda network. Reverting to the matter of delays in getting equipment, particular equipment costing £25,000 was ordered in 1976 and not delivered until 1978. Again, a figure of £30,000 was provided for radio equipment for motor cycles in 1975 but it had still not been delivered by the end of the year 1977. Those problems, unfortunately, are likely to recur and we cannot do much better than we are doing.

242. I should like to thank the Accounting Officer for the very comprehensive explanation. We are all aware that there is a great demand for more sophisticated equipment within the Garda Síochána and as the money is in the Estimate I should like to know if it could be spent on other equipment that is so necessary within the Force? The money is there and other sophisticated equipment is needed and I should like to know if that money can be spent across the board?

—On non-radio equipment?

243. Yes. I should like to know if that money could be used only for radio because it was specifically allocated for radio equipment?

—Not necessarily. It was provided for radio equipment but under the normal rules governing moneys in a particular subhead it would be possible to use it for other equipment. However, I must say that there is not a great deal of substance in the statements on which the Deputy appears to be basing his questions. In point of fact the Garda authorities would not make the assertion that they are very short of sophisticated equipment. That sort of statement is made with very little, and at times, no basis whatsoever. They are quite well equipped in many respects.

244. It is very difficult for me to be informed by one side and not by the other. If the Accounting Officer states that there is no basis for the statements I have read and heard, I accept that, but perhaps there is something to be said for improving public relations within the Department to offset this?

—It is not an issue of two sides with me representing one side. That would raise the question of who is the other side. If it was a question of an allegation by the Garda authorities that they were short of sophisticated equipment and of my denying it here, then that question would arise but that is not the position. In fact, the Minister has publicly stated recently that the Garda Síochána have not been denied any equipment they sought. It is fair to say that this allegation of shortage of equipment has tended to be made more in relation to transport than any other areas. The sophisticated equipment that people sometimes refer to is generally in the area of forensic science, assuming now that we have moved away from communications. It is mostly alleged that there has been a failure to provide adequate transport. From experience, I have no doubt that the latter allegation is totally without foundation. There has not been the slightest bit of foundation for it in any year going back over many years, certainly throughout this decade about which I can speak directly. Each year the Garda Síochána have got in full every last car they asked for. There has not been any shortfall either in the provision of money at the beginning of the year or the sanctioning of the payment of money for the provision of cars in the course of the year. It has been alleged, but not by members of the Garda Síochána, that the contrary is so. It has even been alleged that if there is a breakdown in a car somewhere it is attributable in some way to the Accounting Officer of the Department. Under the system which we operate that is one of those things which has to go unanswered, but the facts are as I have outlined them. The main area for expenditure under Equipment, apart from transport, is in the area of communications, which are not what they should be. Radio is a major part of communications and there is an expert advisory committee in being, consisting of people drawn from the ESB, RTE, one of our leading technical colleges, a university professor and so on, and they are advising on the design, installation and setting up of a new national radio communications network over the next several years and, in the short term, to see what can be done to improve the existing system.

As far as I am concerned that is the most satisfactory reply we have had at the Committee for a long time.

Chairman.—It is, but I should like to say that the discussion so far has probably been on the verge of being outside our brief. However, it was very informative and I should like to thank the Accounting Officer for his comprehensive statement on equipment and the technical back-up the Garda have.

Deputy Woods.—The statement of the Accounting Officer is backed up by the figures which show that the expenditure on transport was very close to the funds allocated. The lag was on Equipment, which obviously is an area which is changing fairly rapidly and would require the kind of consideration which has been mentioned. Hopefully, the deliberations involved can be concluded at an early date so that the Department can get the most up-to-date equipment for the Garda Force.

245. Chairman.—With regard to radio equipment, I should like to know if the Accounting Officer is talking about equipment which has to be imported? The Accounting Officer mentioned the acquisition of sites for the erection of masts and I should should like to know if the Department have compulsory purchasing powers in relation to such sites?

—No, but that answer by itself could be misleading because we have been promised co-operation by other institutions who own sites. There is unlikely to be any significant problem in the context of the national network.

246. Is all the material imported or can the Department draw from some native sources?

—Some has to be imported and some is native. In this situation very often the equipment has to be designed for specific purposes and a good deal of that designing will have to take place for the national network that is being planned.

247. Do you seek tenders for design work?

—This is one of the things which the advisory committee will have to investigate. They will have to determine the needs, leaving an ample amount of scope for possible future developments. A decision will then have to be taken on such issues as how much risk is to be taken with certain installations. In other words, should one duplicate certain things or not? Should one put certain cables underground or run them overhead? When the plan is drawn up the probability is that much of the equipment will have to be imported—that is not authoritative but an off-the-cuff guess. It is the sort of thing which, as far as I know, we have very little of here.

248. I presume it would be from established manufacturers or suppliers?

—Yes, there are suppliers here but very likely they are branches of international companies.

249. Deputy Woods.—The Department might consider consulting with the National Science Council in relation to communications. I believe that in recent times they have taken on some very sophisticated people in the area of communications. In view of the new equipment they have, some consultation might be of value to the Department.

—We will note that—thanks very much for mentioning it.

VOTE 24—PRISONS

Mr. A. Ward further examined.

250. Chairman.—Under the heading of Extra Remuneration, overtime amounted to more than 25 per cent of the total grant and I should be obliged if the Accounting Officer would elaborate on the extent of overtime payments made in this case?

—The demands on the prison service generally have been going up constantly over the past several years and have been expanding so fast that it has not been possible to recruit and train prison officers to keep up with the demand. Inescapably, there is need for a good deal of overtime. Over and above that general proposition problems arise from time to time which cannot be catered for in advance. For instance, in the year under review, 1977, there was an extended hunger strike in Portlaoise prison. In a prison where a hunger strike goes on over a period by a number of prisoners there are tensions, security risks and so on. Staff must be kept on duty to a much greater degree than normal. That could not have been provided for beforehand in the Estimate, nor could it be done by having so many staff made available permanently as that would be uneconomic. That is only one example, though a significant one, of the unforeseeable occasions that arose during the year. There were a couple of minor riots in Mountjoy during the same year. That again was an urgent matter in terms of precautionary measures, in terms of having staff on standby and so on. It is a combination of the two points but primarily a matter of the rapid expansion of the prison service and the impossibility of keeping up staff numbers. To give an example, in April 1977, the year under review, the serving staff—this includes all grades, not prison officers alone—was of the order of 800. Two years later it is 1,100. The difficulties of recruiting suitable staff in those numbers and training them will be obvious. It was therefore not possible to expand the staff any faster than we have been doing.

251. Deputy Woods.—In relation to the Manufacturing Department and Farm—subhead F—there was a grant of £96,000 and expenditure was £97,000 odd. What are the inputs and outputs under this subhead?

—Outputs on the agricultural side include such things as tomatoes from the glasshouses. On the manufacturing side there is a wide variety of products which are sold to various users, including Government Departments. They include leather products from the craft shops.

252. Are there separate management accounts for inputs and outputs, internal management accounts?

—Yes.

253. So you have some idea of the efficiency of the operations?

—I do not suppose it is necessary to emphasise that primarily it is not a matter of a profit and loss operation. Even where produce can be sold efficiently and effectively, the operation is there primarily for training.

254. I appreciate that, but I wonder if there is over-emphasis on one side?

—We have introduced management accounting techniques in recent times.

I appreciate the very valuable and constructive work, but I should like to see interest in the balance, because of its value to the people there.

255. Deputy N. Andrews.—Is there a figure in the account for educational facilities in the prison service? I know the Vocational Education Committees provide services.

—The salaries paid are one thing, but equipment and so on would come under subhead E.—Prison Services, etc. In a subdivision of that subhead in the Estimate there is a heading “Educational Requirements”. Equipment and so on would come under that in subhead E. In 1977, more than £18,000 was spent on educational equipment and materials. That is using “educational” in a very narrow sense. It is separate from training.

256. Is there somebody in the Department responsible for educational facilities and so on?

—Yes.

257. Does his or her salary come under subhead A?

—I am not sure about 1977 but headquarters’ salaries are now under the Justice Vote. I think we would be talking here about the wholetime people working in the prisons as against administration in the Department’s headquarters.

258. Under the heading of educational facilities, salaries and so on within the prison service, the teaching is linked with the Vocational Education Committees and other authorities and the salaries are paid by them. There is the question of teachers’ holidays and consequently there would be gaps in the educational programmes within prisons because of the length of teachers’ holidays in the normal practice of the profession. It means, in effect, periods of nine months rather than the normal twelve?

—For several years past efforts have been made by negotiation to get over that problem. At the heart of it has been the tradition that teachers have the summer months off. It so happens that in the last couple of weeks we had been at the point when we thought that the problem had been solved. Just then an agreement had been reached to enable teachers to work during summer or, to put it more precisely, an agreement under which a number of teachers are willing to stay on. Unfortunately, certain events in the last two or three days in the prison service may indirectly create new difficulties.

259. Deputy F. O’Brien.—One third of the money, £107,000, voted for Welfare Services under subhead G was not spent. It worries me that such a large sum was not used. What is the reason?

—In the matter of grants for new hostels, naturally payments cannot be made unless the hostels have been completed. Money was made available for a hostel in Galway. There were local objections and the work did not get off the ground. It did not proceed in 1978 either, for the same reason, or up to now in 1979. Because of the type of objections it became impossible even to think of going ahead, but recently things are looking brighter. In other cases, the money was not spent until the following year but it was spent then. One was the workshop at Priorswood for PACE, which was finalised in 1978. Another item was the day centre in Marlborough Street—an intensive supervision scheme for offenders who would otherwise be in St. Patrick’s. That day centre is now in operation. So the money saved in 1977 has been spent since, with the exception of that for the Galway project.

VOTE 25—COURTS

Mr. A. Ward further examined.

260. Chairman.—Paragraph 19 of the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“District Court Offices

In the course of local audits at a number of District Court Offices it was noted that there were long delays in issuing warrants in respect of unpaid fines. The Accounting Officer informed me that it had been estimated from returns received from the District Court Clerks as to arrears of work at 31 December 1977 that the total number of fine warrants due for issue at that date was 57,000 and that on the basis of average fines imposed, the value of the fines in respect of which warrants had not been issued was in the region of £430,000. The delay in the issue of warrants was, with other arrears of work in District Court Offices, due to insufficient staff to cope with the very large increase in work-load in recent years. The Accounting Officer has stated, however, that sanction for additional posts (over fifty in all) was obtained over a period from May 1977 to February 1978. Some of these posts have already been filled and all are expected to be filled by the end of 1978. It is expected that this recruitment will be sufficient to enable the problems of delays to be solved in a reasonable time.”

Mr. Mac Gearailt.—This paragraph draws attention to delays in issuing warrants in respect of fines imposed by District Courts which remain unpaid. The problem which appeared to be reaching sizeable proportions is stated by the Accounting Officer to have been due in the main to staffing shortages. Additional staff recruited since the date of my report have helped to reduce the arrears, and I understand that it is expected work can be brought fully up to date in the near future.

261. Chairman.—What is the present position?

—Briefly, it is very much better but not totally solved. This related to the period to 31 December 1977. By the end of the following year the figure of 57,000 had been halved. A further substantial inroad has been made in 1979. Still there are more arrears than we should like, but we have been able to recruit most of the clerks referred to in the paragraph. The problem is now well on the way to being cleared. We have not yet got all the staff because recruiting is again at a standstill because of the postal strike.

VOTE 26—LAND REGISTRY AND REGISTRY OF DEEDS

Mr. A. Ward further examined.

262. Chairman.—Do you increase fees under this Vote to correspond with cost of living increases—do you have a regular review?

—There have to be reviews from time to time because there is a legal obligation that the Land Registry should be self-supporting. The fees were increased about a year ago. The Office is in fact self-sufficient. They had not been increased for some considerable time before that but even then it was self-supporting. The Registry has expanded very much in recent years.

263. Self-sufficiency is the criterion on which you base your fees?

—Yes, that is a legal provision.

Thank you, Accounting Officer.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 9—PUBLIC WORKS AND BUILDINGS

Mr. S. S. Mac Carthaigh called and examined.

264. Chairman.—Paragraph 17 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Suspense Account

Income tax deducted by the Office of Public Works from rent payments made to persons whose usual place of abode is outside the State is lodged to a suspense account for transmission to the Revenue Commissioners. In the course of audit it was noted that the balance in the suspense account at 31 December 1977, £71,494, appeared to comprise deductions made between 1973 and 1977 and I sought the observations of the Accounting Officer regarding the delay in transmitting tax deductions to the Revenue Commissioners. He has informed me that the assembly of the requisite data in relation to these deductions and the subsequent reconciliation of accounts as between the Office of Public Works and the Revenue Commissioners is a complicated and time consuming process. Staffing difficulties in the Accounts Branch in recent years caused this work to fall into arrear which, notwithstanding extensive overtime working, it has not yet been possible to overtake.

The Accounting Officer considers the position unsatisfactory and states that it will be rectified as soon as circumstances permit.”

Mr. Mac Gearailt.—This paragraph draws attention to a delay in paying over to the Revenue Commissioners tax deducted from rent payments made by the Office of Public Works to persons normally resident outside the State. The explanation given by the Accounting Officer for the delay is included in the paragraph. I understand that the position in regard to tax deducted in recent years has been regularised but that the problem in relation to earlier years i.e., 73-74, 74-75 and 75-76 remains unsolved.

265. Chairman.—What is the current position on that item in relation to the previous years?

—The tax for 1978-79, 1977-78 and 1976-77 has been paid over and reconciliation of the tax for the year 1975-76 is nearly completed. The original amount outstanding was £71,494 and when 1975-76 is completed the amount outstanding will be just £7,000. The arrears are being overtaken gradually and the current amounts are being paid regularly.

266. There is no possibility that this position will arise again?

—We hope not. A very small staff is engaged on this work and they have been diverted at times of pressure or sickness to making payments to contractors, etc., which is current work but we hope that position will not arise again.

267. Deputy F. O’Brien.—On Subhead F.2 —Furniture, Fittings and Utensils—can the Accounting Officer tell the Committee the extent of native buying as against buying outside the State?

—We try to buy Irish furniture if it is available. If the added-value of an item in Ireland is 40 per cent, we regard that item as being Irish.

268. Have you any breakdown?

—No.

269. Chairman.—On subhead I—Coast Protection—the Office of Public Works are involved with local authorities in all cases and I should like to know if you have any difficulty in getting them, having decided on the proportions to be paid by both parties, to pay their share?

—They are surprised at the cost of coast erosion works. They often regard our estimates as being very high but the works cost a lot of money. For example, in Waterford, they were shocked at the estimated cost of the coast erosion works at Ballyvoile.

270. On the question of valuing of property for the purchasing of sites for buildings and so on, I take it that you have professional staff who undertake this work?

—Yes.

271. Do you have any other approach to valuations; do you send anyone else out or get a consensus?

—We used use the Valuation Office at one time to advise us on the value of property. A lot of our small purchases are valued by local architects and it is only in the case of larger purchases that we use our valuers. They are pretty well aware of current valuations and keep in touch with the Valuation Office, have their own records and are pretty skilled in the matter. Their record in valuation cases on arbitration is exceptional.

272. Have you any instances of duplication of this work in your Department?

—Not really; I am not aware of any duplication. A lot of our sites are required in specific places. For instance, in the case of Garda stations and other such buildings we are limited in our choice.

273. Your own staff undertake valuations in these cases?

—Yes.

274. As you are aware at present we have undertaken here fairly extensive drainage schemes with the assistance of moneys from the EEC. The expenditure of this scale of money will involve an extra amount of surveying and technical input and I should like to know if you are happy that you have the labour force available to undertake this to spend that amount of money?

—We are not happy about it. In fact, we are very concerned about the position.

275. There is the suggestion, rightly or wrongly, that you may not have the technical skill in the quantity needed—I am not talking about the quality—to supervise and oversee the expenditure of that amount of money. We are talking about tens of millions, thank God. Are you happy with that?

—We are seriously concerned about that. We have been diverting engineers from surveying and other work to the preparation of these schemes but we fear that unless we succeed in recruiting additional staff we will have a hiatus in our preparation of schemes in the 1980s. That could be serious. We are devoting our time to the preparation of EEC schemes but we will have a hiatus unless we get additional staff. It is pretty well known—it has been stated by our Minister several times—that we are not successful in recruiting staff.

276. Is it because of remuneration levels?

—Remuneration levels and other conditions. They have been under consideration by the Department of the Public Service for some time and offers and counter-offers have been made. We are seriously concerned about the position.

277. I should like to put it on record that the Committee would also be very concerned if, when we are getting money from other sources to which we are entitled—I am not saying that we are getting any concessions— we might find ourselves in the position of not being able to spend that money and have the proper results from it due to the lack of professional staff to carry out surveying and overseeing.

—We have two commitments here, one to the EEC and the other to Northern Ireland in relation to trans-Border schemes. We would not like to fall down on either commitment.

278. Are you saying that in the not-too-distant future you may find yourself falling down on that commitment?

—We are very concerned that that might happen.

279. Deputy F. O’Brien.—Because of the shortage of staff?

—Yes.

Chairman.—This Committee will back you up in any demand you make in that regard. We will do our best to ensure, in so far as we can, that any requirements of the Office are met.

280. Deputy F. O’Brien.—Under Subhead F.3—Rents, Rates, etc.—the amount involved, £4½ million seems rather high. Is there any long-term policy to develop your own accommodation? We seem to be renting property at will rather than looking to the long term.

—We have a long-term building programme which is proceeding and we have some very large projects in that field. The first lot to be developed will be to replace unsuitable buildings and buildings we have to surrender. At a certain stage our building programme will begin to take over from renting.

281. Chairman.—I should like to thank the Accounting Officer for his co-operation.

—I should like to refer to one matter. The last time I was before the Committee I referred to the annual report on the operation of the farm at Bourne Vincent Memorial Park.

We have informed other Accounting Officers who expressed the wish to comment on our Report that the opportunity will arise to comment through the Finance Minute. It may be a circuitous route but it will get here and you will have an opportunity of discussing it.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 44—POSTS AND TELEGRAPHS

Mr. P. L.Ó Réagáin called and examined.

282. Chairman.—Paragraph 33 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Stores

A test examination of the store accounts was carried out with satisfactory results.

In addition to the engineering stores shown in Appendix II as valued at £10,987,410 at 31 December 1977, engineering stores to the value of £27,973 were held on behalf of other government departments. Stores, other than engineering stores, were valued at £2,717,435 including £934,012 in respect of stores held for other government departments.

Including works in progress at 31 December 1977 the expenditure on manufacturing jobs in the factory during the year amounted to £270,038, expenditure on repair work (other than repairs to mechanical transport) to £398,434 and expenditure on mechanical transport repairs to £73,061.”

Mr. Mac Gearailt.—This paragraph reports to Dáil Éireann that the Store Accounts kept by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs were duly examined by my Office in 1977 as required by Statute. The paragraph also gives the value of engineering and other stores on hands at 31 December 1977 including stores held on behalf of other Government Departments.

283. Chairman.—Paragraph 34 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Revenue

A test examination of accounts of postal, telegraph and telephone services was carried out with satisfactory results. The net yield of revenue for the years 1977 and 1976 is shown in the following statement:—

£121,500,000 was paid into the Exchequer during the year leaving a balance of £1,649,343 at 31 December 1977. Sums amounting to £206,039 due for telephone services and £4,449 for telegraph (telex) services provided in previous years were written off during the year as irrecoverable. I have made a test check of the amounts written off with satisfactory results.”

Mr. Mac Gearailt.—This paragraph reports to Dáil Éireann that accounts of the Revenue from Post Office Services have been examined with satisfactory results. The net yield of revenue from the Postal, Telegraph and Telephone services is shown for the year under review together with the figures for 1976. Also shown in the paragraph is the amount paid over to the Exchequer in respect of these services and the amounts written off during the year as irrecoverable.

284. Chairman.—Paragraph 35 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Post Office Savings Bank

Section 13 of the Post Office Savings Banks Act, 1861, as amended, requires that the annual accounts of the Bank be audited by me. At the date of this Report I had not completed my audit of the accounts for the year ended 31 December 1977.”

Mr. Mac Gearailt.—As stated in the paragraph, I was unable to complete my audit of the Post Office Savings Bank for the year ended 31 December 1977 by the date of my Report. Information which I was awaiting at that date has since been received and the audit has been completed satisfactorily.

The balance due to depositors inclusive of interest, amounted to £387,776,921 (including £164,352,288 in respect of liability to Trustee Savings Banks) at 31 December 1977 as compared with £307,527,218 at the close of the previous year. Interest accrued during the year on securities standing to the credit of the Post Office Savings Bank Fund amounted to £35,905,344. Of this sum £26,201,920 was applied as interest paid and credited to depositors, management expenses absorbed £2,846,608 and the balance £6,856,816 remained as a provision against depreciation in the value of securities.

285. Chairman.—On paragraph 35, what went wrong, and has the difficulty been solved?

—The difficulties have been resolved. Some information was sought about which we had not got a query.

Mr. Mac Gearailt.—What we wanted was a reconciliation of the figures in the ledger accounts with those in the computer. At the date of my report it was not available. I am not aware of the position now, but I hope that it will not arise in relation to the 1978 accounts.

—Hopefully, no.

286. Chairman.—Paragraph 36 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Bank Account

In accordance with Section 49 of the Central Bank Act, 1971 the account of the Exchequer was transferred to the Central Bank on 1 January 1972. Subsequent to that date the accounts of various Government Departments were also transferred to that Bank. The account of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs is, however, still maintained at a commercial bank as a current account and in the course of audit it was noted that the daily balances on this account throughout 1977 ranged between £3 million and £20 million. I inquired whether consideration had been given, in the interest of the Exchequer, to the placing of these balances on deposit or alternatively to the transfer of the account to the Central Bank whose surplus income is paid over to the Exchequer.

The Accounting Officer informed me that in relation to the turnover of the Department the bank balances are not considered excessive. The question of transferring the account to the Central Bank was considered in consultation with the Department of Finance and the Central Bank in 1972 and 1973. It was found at that time that the Central Bank would have encountered difficulties in servicing all Post Offices but the matter is receiving further consideration at present in the context of a more general study of banking services. He added that the question of whether interest should be sought from the commercial bank concerned will be taken up if this study does not result in a transfer of the account to the Central Bank.”

Mr. Mac Gearailt.—The purpose of this paragraph is to draw attention to the size of the daily balances in the account of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs which is still maintained at a commercial bank as a current account whereas other departmental accounts were transferred to the Central Bank some time ago. The Accounting Officer’s observations are included in the paragraph.

287. Chairman.—You have large sums of money at any given times—social welfare, postal orders and ordinary revenue. The practice of lodging such large amounts of money in a current account does not seem to be the best way in the world to carry on business. There may be reasons for it and perhaps you would like to comment. In relation to social welfare moneys and ordinary revenue, how often do you lodge— monthly or fortnightly? In relation to social welfare, how long, on average, would you have such money on hand before it passes through to recipients?

—These balances arise mainly in connection with social welfare payments. We pay for the Department of Social Welfare most of the payments made by them. The balances arise mainly at weekends. We receive very large sums on Fridays, something like £5 million each week for old age pensions etc. We also get about £4 million for children’s allowances for payment on the first Tuesday of each month. We lodge the funds with the Bank of Ireland who in turn channel them to our various local offices. It is a major problem for us to keep all our local offices in funds for social welfare payments of various sorts, and the bank concerned provides us with a useful service in various areas. We discussed with the Department of Finance the possibility of transferring the funds to the Central Bank but that bank was not in a position to serve our offices throughout the country. There has been an inter-departmental study of the position and we are awaiting its outcome. I understand that committee are likely to report soon. These large balances have been a fairly recent occurrence—social welfare payments have risen steeply in recent years and the demands we are making on the Bank of Ireland have risen correspondingly. I do not want to make a case for the bank in case we might later on be looking for interest, but there would be some counterbalancing claim to be made in respect of the services given by the bank.

288. Do you get the impression the bank do not charge the going rate?

—They give us services for which there is no charge.

289. In the case of normal commercial transactions, they charge interest. Are you not obliged to pay them the commercial rate for similar transactions?

—No.

290. You are getting a good bargain?

—Not necessarily a good bargain, but a bargain of some kind. We are awaiting the report of the inter-departmental study.

291. Deputy F. O’Brien.—Could you not go along to other banks—Allied Irish Banks, the Ulster Bank—and tell them of the business you offer and inquire about interest? You could also give them an idea of the way the money flows. Perhaps that should be explored?

—It may be taken that we would look at the question of a change in those terms.

292. On subhead F.—Engineering Stores and Equipment—there is a 10 per cent saving on contracts. Is this a new procedure for the laying of new telephone lines?

—At all times we have made considerable use of contractors. The subhead deals with the installation and equipment of exchanges etc. We have made use of contractors for the installation of exchanges very much from the beginning.

293. Under the heading of Extra Receipts Payable to Exchequer I note that broadcasting licence and relay licence fees are estimated at £13,175,000 and realised £12,520,695, and I should like to know if the drop was due to the non-payment of licences?

—It is primarily a matter of over-estimation.

294. How much was lost because of the non-payment of licence fees?

—There was an estimate in the annual report of RTE of £1.5 million.

295. Are the Department making any inroads on that amount?

—We hope we are. We campaign annually to try to find out where the defaulters are and we use whatever information is available from dealers’ lists and so on in this connection.

Chairman.—Thank you, Accounting Officer.

The witness withdrew.

The Committee deliberated.

The Committee adjourned.

* See Appendix 5