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MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA(Minutes of Evidence)Déardaoin, 22 Eanáir, 1976.Thursday, 22nd January, 1976.The Committee met at 11 a.m.
DEPUTY de VALERA in the chair. Mr. S. Mac Gearailt (An tArd-Reachtatire Cuntas agus Ciste) called and examined.VOTE 25—CHARITABLE DONATIONS AND BEQUESTS.Mr. J. S. Martin called and examined.273. Chairman.—Have the activities of your office increased? —Enormously—for several reasons—one being the closure of all those national schools throughout the country. In the majority of cases there were no trustees or no legal owners. The Commissioners have power to appoint new trustees of these premises. We are literally inundated with applications to appoint trustees at the moment. When the trustees have been appointed, the question of selling arises. The Commissioners’ consent is also required to a sale of such properties. I think I could say conservatively that there must be about 30 or 40 cases awaiting attention. 274. What is the primary cause for the decrease in your expenditure? It says in the notes that the saving was due to vacancies and to the replacement of an officer at a lower scale point. Are you not able to get staff? —What happened there was that the accountant in the office had reached a fairly advanced stage in his salary scale and was replaced by an officer at a lower point. 275. As you anticipated a great deal of work and you are getting into arrears in that office, what do you think should be done? —It is very difficult to say because the causes of accumulation may be temporary and we will get back to a more settled scale of work. In other words, the accumulations are due, to some extent anyway, to the circumstances I mentioned about the closure of those national schools throughout the country. 276. In other ways, is there a decrease in the original concept of charitable donations and bequests in the volume of work going through? —I would not say so. The legal need is still there? —Yes, and it has increased. The number of charitable organisations is growing daily. There is a tremendous extension now in the social aspect of charities to help a particular class of the community that may be deserving. And these impinge on the duties of the Commissioners? —Yes. 277. The reason I mention these points is that every year no question arises on the actual accounts. This is an area that might easily be overlooked. If there is any danger of a back-log piling up, a little anticipatory action or notice might be helpful. Would you agree? —I agree and I appreciate that. The Commissioners are very much alive to the situation. They meet every fortnight. The normal agenda comprises about 30 cases. To get through 30 cases between 4 o’clock in the afternoon and 7 o’clock or 7.30 is quite a feat. We are getting to the stage where we cannot put any more before the Commissioners, because they could not deal with them. When the Commissioners make a ruling, it has to be drafted and sent out in the majority of cases while, at the same time, preparation must be made for submission of further cases to the board at their next meeting. It would appear that possibly an expanded staff is needed? —To some extent, I agree. 278. Deputy H. Gibbons.—In dealing with charitable organisations, (1) have you any function in saying that the funds go to the objects for which they were established and (2) to see their income is used in a reasonable proportion between their objective and their administration? —Taking your first question, Deputy, we can only intervene in a charity where evidence is furnished that the charity is either being withheld or misapplied. We have very limited functions in that respect. With regard to the second question, I should preface my remarks by saying that, in my experience of dealing with charities, the number of cases where money has not been applied in accordance with the object is very, very small. But if we have any information that a particular charity is not being applied or that the money received is not being applied for the purpose for which it was given, the Commissioners can investigate the matter. 279. Chairman.—Mr. Martin, have you anything further to add or any suggestions to make to us? Deputy MacSharry.—Or donations. —I would only appeal to the Deputies for a subscription! Chairman.—The last time you were here you were saying you did not expect to come before us again. We are very glad to see you here. —Thank you. I am somewhat like the operatic singer—I am inclined to have several retirements before I finally go. A very good programme. The witness withdrew. VOTE 27—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION.Mr. D. Ó Laoghaire called and examined.280. Chairman.—Paragraph 31 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads as follows: “Subhead A.4.—Grants to Bord An Choláiste Náisiúnta Ealaíne is Deartha Bord An Choláiste Náisiúnta Ealaíne is Deartha was established on 1 May 1972 under the National College of Art and Design Act, 1971, to carry out the management of An Coláiste Náisiúnta Ealaíne is Deartha, the organisation and administration of its affairs and other particular and general functions in relation to education in art, crafts and design. The charge to the subhead, £241,689, represents fees and expenses paid by the Department of Education on behalf of An Bord amounting to £244,755 partly offset by student fees amounting to £3,066 remitted to the Department. I am in communication with An Bord and also with the Accounting Officer regarding the submission of statutory accounts for audit as required by Section 15 (2) of the 1971 Act.” Mr. Mac Gearailt.—The failure of the former board of Coláiste Náisiúnta Ealaíne is Deartha to submit its accounts for audit was discussed by the Public Accounts Committee when the Appropriation Accounts for 1972-73 were under examination. The Committee in their recent report took a serious view of the failure of the board in this matter and asked to be kept informed of the outcome of the efforts being made to have the position regularised. I understand that the term of office of the former board of the college expired in May, 1975, and that a new board has been appointed. Statutory accounts have not yet been received by me for audit. 281. Chairman.—Could the Accounting Officer tell us the position from his point of view? —As I explained last year the statutory responsibility in this case is on the board of the National College of Art. My function in the matter is not entirely clear but I undertook to see what I could do to get these accounts furnished. I have been in touch with the board by letter and orally on a number of occasions. The final result is that there has been a meeting between officers of the board, officers of accounts branch and members of the Auditor General’s staff last week and it has now been arranged that the accounts for the period from May, 1972, to the end of 1973 will be finalised by mid-February and that the accounts for 1974 will be finalised by the end of March. 282. Deputy MacSharry.—What was their explanation for this delay? —There was a difference of view between the board and the Department. When the board came into operation first in May, 1972, they were only commencing their operations in the college and they did not have sufficient staff to handle things, so the Department dealt with payments on their behalf up to December, 1974. Having dealt with some of the payments our accounts branch was in a position to deal with a large volume of the accounts but the payments that had actually been made by the College of Art directly were things that only they could account for. The board took the view that the Department should deal with all the accounts. This difference of view has now been ironed out and the college will be furnishing the accounts. The law on the matter is that the college is required to submit the accounts to the Comptroller and Auditor General and, when they have been audited, to the Minister for Education. Mr. Mac Gearailt.—My problem is that the Act says that I should get statutory accounts for audit and I have not got the accounts. 283. Chairman.—From whom should you get the accounts? Mr. Mac Gearailt.—From the board. 284. Chairman.—With regard to the Department itself and the Accounting Officer, payments made on behalf of the board, as has been mentioned here and other matters, are they completely in order from the State accounting point of view? Mr. Mac Gearailt.—In the early years the audit of the board’s expenditure formed part of the audit of the Department of Education expenditure. We were quite happy. I am not suggesting that there is anything wrong with the actual expenditure but there was a breach of a provision of the Act and it is my function to bring it to your attention. Chairman.—The breach is on the part of the board? Mr. Mac Gearailt.—Yes. This Accounting Officer and the previous Accounting Officer were asked to use their influence to get—— 285. Chairman.—And we are in a similar difficult position. My question is: in so far as the Department and the Accounting Officer are concerned, there is nothing questionable or ultra vires in this expenditure? Mr. Mac Gearailt.—Not that I am aware of. Chairman.—We can sympathise with your problem, whether it is a question of artistic temperament or not. —It is a question of difficulties of a new board and a new staff. We felt that we had to be reasonably sympathetic towards them. There is the position about the issues from the grant-in-aid to the college from the Department and in connection with that, our procedure is that we have to get a return of their income and expenditure from the college at the end of each quarter before we make issues from the grant-in-aid. That is the only sanction you can have? —Yes. So long as this has been observed strictly and the proper disciplines apply, we cannot say more. Deputy MacSharry.—I suppose it will be some time before it occurs again, but will the Committee write to the board? Is it the Committee’s function at this stage to point out what the Secretary of the Department of Education has said here in relation to the presentation of these accounts in February and March this year? Is this the time to do that or is it in the report? Chairman.—This raises a rather interesting question of the different functions of the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Committee. We will have that investigated before we finish. We will not deal with it now. The position still remains extremely unsatisfactory and the Accounting Officer has done his best to straighten it out with the Comptroller and Auditor General. 286. Paragraph 32 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads: “Subhead D.6.—Physical Education The charge to the subhead includes sums amounting to £5,000 advanced to the College of Physical Education to cover the expenses of students engaged on the field work of a national survey of physical recreation facilities which was undertaken in 1973 by the National Council for Sport and Physical Recreation. I asked the Accounting Officer for information regarding the charging of these advances against a subhead provision made specifically for training teachers in Physical Education. I also asked him if the expenditure of the sums so advanced had been accounted for to his satisfaction.” Mr. Mac Gearailt.—Paragraph 32 of the Report draws attention to the expenditure of moneys voted for the training of teachers for physical education on a national survey of physical recreation facilities. When replying to my inquiry, the former Accounting Officer forwarded a statement from the National College of Physical Education showing that £4,787 of the £5,000 mentioned in the paragraph had been paid as expenses to students involved in the survey work. I understand that the balance of £213 has been refunded to the Department. Chairman.—Is the matter in order now? Mr. MacGearailt.—Yes, I am quite happy with it. 287. Chairman.—Is there any comment from the Accounting Officer? —The view was taken in the Department, rightly or wrongly, that while this was a survey of recreational facilities, it was something that was being done in the interests of the training of physical education teachers who would be moving to schools afterwards and who should know what facilities were available in their areas. The view was taken at the time that this should be paid out of the funds of the training colleges and partly by the training teachers concerned. However, the matter is now resolved. Deputy Toal.—Has the survey been completed? —Yes. 288. Deputy C. Murphy.—On subhead A.1.—Salaries, Wages and Allowances—has additional staff been recruited? —Some of it has, but not all. We still have vacancies for quite a number of post-primary inspectors. 289. Is there a difficulty in filling these vacancies? —Yes. To what are these difficulties attributed? —It is difficult to be categoric on this matter but it is due to some extent to the improvement in remuneration and promotion prospects for post-primary teachers generally. With the increased salary scales, increased payments for responsibility and increased promotion prospects in the schools, it becomes that much less attractive to take on a post which consumes far more of one’s time at, in many cases little, if any, increased remuneration. 290. Chairman.—That seems to be at variance with the common impression that there is no outlet for post-primary teachers at present, particularly for the young people who have recently qualified. —There are a considerable number of posts of responsibilities in post-primary schools and many have—— It is a question of level? —Yes, and also the fact that teachers have more attractive commitments in time over the year than an inspector has. 291. Deputy H. Gibbons.—You referred to the post-primary sector. Does that mean that the opportunity does not exist for teachers in the primary sector? —No. The vacancies are for post-primary inspectors. The position is perhaps a little different on the primary side because, first, the schools are not so big and the actual amount of money which could be earned by a headmaster or a vice-principal would be much higher in the post-primary area than in the primary area, due to the number of students. Deputy C. Murphy.—The points system. —Yes, and larger schools. 292.—Chairman.—When he mentions the points system I am terribly tempted, but unfortunately we are not a policy body, we are merely arithmeticians and better stick to our last. —It is a reflection of two different conciliation and arbitration systems, one for teachers and one for the public service. I think our position is that we must take things as we find them and see that everything is carried out properly within the existing framework. 293. Deputy C. Murphy.—A lot of money was voted but not spent? —Yes. Chairman.—It must have some effect on supervision and in that sense on efficiency if you are short of inspectors? —Yes. Deputy C. Murphy.—From the advisory point of view, teachers definitely welcome inspectors to the schools. Chairman.—It must have changed since my time. Deputy C. Murphy.—No. The emphasis now is on the advisory aspect. —The situation was always rather different between the primary and the post-primary fields. Also there is a very heavy examination commitment on post-primary inspectors. 294. This means that many schools are not visited by inspectors because of the shortage and, secondly, they are tied down to base. —This is true. Therefore from the inspectors’ and the teachers’ point of view it is possible to be out of touch? —Yes. Chairman.—It must affect administration. —It certainly does not make it any easier. 295. On subhead A.3.—Post Office Services—I take it that the machinery for accounting for that subhead is in order? Mr. Mac Gearailt.—Yes. 296. Deputy MacSharry.—On subhead A.5.—National Council for Educational Awards—is it still at the development stage? —Very much so. The status of this council has been changed. There will be a new council and new terms of reference. The saving on the old council was due to the fact that they had not been in a position to implement the number of committees and boards of studies and they did not have a full staff of registrars. But the staff has been expanded since. 297. Chairman.—What is the primary function under the new terms of reference? —The new terms of reference have not been promulgated yet. The first meeting of the council will take place soon and the terms of reference will be coming up for consideration by the new council. Again, we must stay within our limitations. 298. Deputy Toal.—Is this an increase of £69,000 on the previous year? In 1972-73 it was £25,800; in 1973-74 it was £95,000. If there is an increase in the transition stage and the council has not been properly set up, what will the grant be? —I think there is a slight misunderstanding here in that the original council was fully constituted, but not fully staffed. The director had been appointed but they had a number of posts as registrar and they had a number of subcommittees they were developing and the measure of their development is in the increase from the 1973 position to the 1974 position. The fact is that we did manage to spend £88,000 on it. But the whole function of the NCEA has been rethought in the context of the proposals for higher education generally and it is a new NCEA that will be meeting next month. Deputy MacSharry.—Did the NCEA look for support at the end of last year like all the Departments? Did they expend all their money last year? —In the year ended December, 1974? Nineteen seventy-five. —I am sorry, I do not have the outturn of the Vote for 1975. 299. Deputy H. Gibbons.—This body will be giving awards this year? —Yes. Is this the first year? —Yes. This will be the first year of the new body. 300. Is is now accepted that the awards will be of international standing? —I think I can say yes. But it has to be understood in the context of the awards they make. In the new set-up the extent to which they will be awarding degrees will be limited. It will be mostly certificates and diplomas. Deputy MacSharry.—When you said “this year”, did you mean 1976 or 1973-74 in relation to the awards? —Nineteen seventy-six. The awards for 1975 have been made. What will be the difference between them and the ones that will be made in 1976 by the NCEA? —They will be made by the new council. There will be no difference. 301. Deputy H. Gibbons.—Is there any system by which they can be correlated with international standards, for example, the same as in the medical field? —The arrangement in the medical field is fairly clear because it is done by the EEC under directive, but when you come to awards that are in the technological field the situation in regard to EEC directives is not very clear. They do not have the same binding force as directives in the medical field and in other fields the Commission was dealing with. The question is: will the awards that the NCEA will be making—certificates and diplomas—be of sufficient standing to be accepted as comparable to other awards? That is a matter of the standards that the NCEA apply. There is not, as far as I know, any accepted international machinery for comparing these diplomas. Deputy MacSharry.—Is there any system for comparing the standards? —Not really. Deputy C. Murphy.—Is the system of extern examiners involved? —Yes. The NCEA are very careful about giving awards. This is the only system of international recognition we have. Could the Accounting Officer give us a note on the awards? Chairman.—Yes, but we have to be careful about our own function. We are going a little bit into future policy matters on this. I do not think it is any harm to see the ground, but how far it is wise to go in that direction is another question. I think the Accounting Officer would be entitled to say in this matter, if he were so minded, that this is not a matter touching on his functions as Accounting Officer. —I am not so minded. I know, but particularly as we have been rather stringent with your Department in the past on keeping things—— —I have no objection. I would suggest that, if this is beyond us as a Committee, you might be good enough to give Deputy Murphy all the information and maybe communicate direct with him, if that suited him. Deputy C. Murphy.—I would appreciate that. 302. Chairman.—On subhead B.3.—Contributions to the College of Europe, Bruges —is that college still continuing at full steam as it was several years ago? —Yes. It seems to have accepted the establishment of the European University Institute in Florence as a challenge rather than anything else. It seems to be working at full speed within its own ambit. Deputy C. Murphy.—Would we have many students there? —Yes. Could we have an indication of the number? —We give three scholarships for Irish students each year. The college has about 100 students each year. There may be other students there also. I can get the number and let you know. 303. Chairman.—On subhead B.4.—Educational Research—that money is very closely estimated. What is the area covered under that heading? What is the activity for which that money is expended? —Of the £50,000 listed here, there is a school music project on which some £5,000 was spent; the consequences of educational testing, £8,000; the International Institute for Educational Planning, £5,000. 304. On subhead B.5.—Language Research—What is comprised here? —This is largely Irish language—experimental conversation courses in Irish based on the material in Buntús Gaeilge, tape recordings and film strips. 305. Deputy C. Murphy.—On subhead B.7.—Educational Tours for Teachers—are many such tours undertaken? —These were mostly tours to America, organised to Chico College of the University of Delaware. Up to 1973, these were funded entirely by the foundation in America. When they reduced their contribution, the Department of Education increased their grant. The tour that was planned for July and August, 1973, had 38 teachers from primary and secondary schools on it. Are the tours advertised? —They are fairly well known among teachers. They are not advertised in the newspapers because that would absorb cash which is needed for the actual tours. There is usually a considerable demand for places on them. This is an indication of how unaware I was of them. 306. Chairman.—On subhead B.8.—Council of Europe Conferences—is the Council of Europe becoming of less importance now because of the issuing of EEC directives? —No. We have just as much activity as ever under the Council of Europe. The saving in this case is because the symposium was sponsored jointly by Ireland and France and the French Government made a contribution which reduced the amount we expected to pay. 307. On subhead C.1.—University Scholarships—the amount was somewhat less than granted because the number of students holding scholarships was less than expected. —This is a reflection on the means test not keeping pace with inflation of incomes. Deputy Toal.—Do you expect the number will decrease even further next year? —There have been changes in income limits since, but at this particular time the income limits had not changed. 308. Deputy MacSharry.—When were the changes made in the income limits? —I have not got the exact date. It was some time late in 1974. For all university scholarships? —Yes. For those administered by county councils? —These are the scholarships administered by the county councils. They were not reviewed in 1974. —The means test was. Deputy C. Murphy.—There was the £1,600 on a sliding scale, depending on the number of dependants. Deputy MacSharry.—I did not know that was reviewed since 1972-73. Deputy C. Murphy.—I thought the review would be coming up in the next few months? —This is a further review. There was a review in 1974. 309. Chairman.—On subhead C.2.— Scientific Research Grants to Students— would this represent many students? —This is a reflection of what happens in the examinations. The awards in the case of first year students depend on the results of the examinations, which are not available until the autumn of the year in which the Estimates are prepared. There is also a certain unpredictable element in renewal. We are never quite certain that people are going to renew these scholarships. The first-year allowance in 1973-74 was only £100 compared with £113 in 1972-73. 310. Deputy Moore.—On subhead C.4. —Fellowships—to whom are they awarded? —They are divided into two groups. These are senior visiting fellowships to enable senior scientists and engineers from Ireland to go abroad for short periods. These are administered by the Royal Academy and the candidates are selected by a committee of the academy. We pay the grants. We had 13 candidates in 1973-74. The post-doctoral scholarships are awarded under a scheme which commenced in 1967. These are for people with Ph.D. or equivalent research experience to enable them to do programmes in science and engineering at Irish universities. Again there is a selection committee to deal with this. In 1973-74, 11 scholarships were awarded. I can supply a list if it is required. Chairman.—You furnished an appendix on this matter last year. 311. Deputy Toal.—Must they go to American universities? —There is no restriction on where the people selected for these fellowships go. Since engineering is involved, many of them choose to go to America. 312. On National Library, subhead E.1.— Purchase of Books, etc. (Grants-in-Aid)— that seems to be static. Is it the same allowance each year? —It is the same allocation each year but it builds up a fund and the balance of the fund is fairly substantial. The policy of the Library is to hold its money for worthwhile acquisitions as they come on the market. The costs may be fairly substantial and they hold some of the money from year to year. 313. Deputy C. Murphy.—If they have to purchase in advance without having sufficient money in the pool do they have to get an overdraft and pay interest? —The money in the pool is held in a suspense account in the Department and they draw on it. It is not engaged until such time as the Library wants to purchase something. If something of particular importance came on the market they would draw on it. 314. Deputy MacSharry.—At what does it stand? —The unexpended balance was £15,000. 315. Deputy C. Murphy.—Suppose there is not sufficient money in the pool? —If something like that came up urgently and we had not the money—— Chairman.—It is a problem that could be dealt with. Deputy C. Murphy.—The situation has not arisen yet? —Not in the case of the Library but I think it has arisen in the case of the Museum when we have come to the Dáil for an additional grant. This could be the procedure, then? 316. Chairman.—On subhead F.3.— Archaeological Excavations—the sum of £2,000 grant-in-aid would not go very far nowadays I imagine? —No. That has to be supplemented. I do not think they would dig many holes with that now. 317. Deputy Moore.—Would any money have gone towards the Winetavern Street excavations? —Not in 1973-74. Since? —Yes, since; the money would have been coming out of this and also out of money provided by the Board of Works. All the moneys for excavations like that will be in the Education Vote for the future. 318. Chairman.—On subhead G.2.—Royal Irish Academy—the expenditure was less than voted. What is the explanation of that? —That was on the printing of the dictionary of old Irish. The amount expended on it was £1,866 and it left a saving of £425. The whole saving was not on the dictionary. Portion of it was on the dictionary of old Irish and some of the saving was on the international exchange schemes. 319. Deputy Moore.—On subhead G.3.— Royal Irish Academy of Music—it is in dire straits for money. As a matter of interest, has the amount gone up or down? —It is going up and will go up, provided the Dáil agree. 320. Chairman.—On subhead G.7.—Royal Zoological Society of Ireland—£2,000 seems a small grant. —It is but we have never had an application for an increase, as far as I know. 321. Deputy MacSharry.—On subhead G.12.—Aid for Youth and Sports Organisations—£600 was unexpended. There are tremendous demands from various organisations for assistance under this fund. Is there any reason why it was not fully expended that year? —I can account for £400 of that figure. The General Assembly of the Council of European National Youth Committees was held in Killarney in April, 1973. There was a balance of £400 unexpended on the amount allocated for that. Any savings on this subhead would be small and entirely accidental, I think. 322. Deputy Toal.—On subhead G.14.— Irish Countrywomen’s Association—what way is the money spent on this association and Muintir na Tíre? —In the case of the Irish Countrywomen’s Association the grant is towards the administration and maintenance of An Grianán and the expenses of conducting adult education courses. There is also a grant-in-aid from the Department of Agriculture to meet their general expenses. What we are funding is the administration of it and the educational courses. We used to provide a specific sum, £1,000, for An Grianán. On examination of their educational courses this was raised to £5,000. The situation is the same for Muintir na Tíre. 323. On subhead G.17.—Music Association of Ireland—what does this body do? —There is an increase in this case. The original grant was £700 and a supplementary grant of £2,000 was made. This was for their operation in the schools with Ogra Ceol. Their main objective is to further musical education by the encouragement of musical groups. Since 1967 they have been trying to bring live music into as many schools as they can. £500 of the money was for the National Youth Orchestra under Ogra Ceol. 324. Chairman.—On the Notes—in addition to expenditure under subhead A.5., a further sum of £11,907 was charged to subhead A.1.—what does that mean? In two cases, under subhead A.5. and subhead G.18. further sums were charged to subhead A.1. which is just salaries and wages. How is that to be interpreted? —I think some of this relates, Chairman, to the Institúid Teangeolaíochta, the Language Institute, where the officer who was serving the Language Institute was on the staff. Yes, the same thing applies in subhead A.5., in fact a bigger sum with regard to the National Council of Educational Awards. In other words, it is a wholetime civil servant who is employed, seconded, so to speak. —A seconded civil servant. VOTE 28—PRIMARY EDUCATION.Mr. D. Ó Laoghaire further examined325. Deputy C. Murphy.—On subhead A.3.—Special Courses for Teachers—there is a note “The number of courses held was less than anticipated”. Was this in any way related to courses for remedial teachers? —Yes, one of them was a short course on remedial teaching. 326. Deputy H. Gibbons.—On subhead B.—Examinations—what does the examinations in the primary sector cover? —These are the entrance examinations for the Primary Teachers Training Colleges. 327. Chairman.—On subhead C.4.— Grants for School Requisites—there is no note for the increase. It is, I presume, due to inflation largely. Is that right? You have an original Estimate; there was a supplementary which detracted from it and then the detraction is practically neutralised and marginally increased. That suggests that inflation was affecting estimation. —Yes, most of it is on the annual teaching aids grant. It is equipment and the increase is probably due to higher prices. 328. On subhead C.5.—Grants towards the cost of Heating, Cleaning and Painting of Schools—this is less than granted and again a Supplementary Estimate is brought in and, as it happens, only £2,000 of it is required. Again, I take it that somewhat similar factors apply. Is that right? —It is mainly the subhead on painting which was not completely taken up. 329. Deputy C. Murphy.—On subhead C.6.—Aid towards the cost of School Books —there is a note which states that applications for grants were less than anticipated. —It is the same problem. It is difficult to estimate this. It is handled by the head-masters of the schools. The applications just do not measure up to what we expect. 330. On subhead C.7.—Fees for Pupils in Secondary Tops—judging by the numbers the amount of money seems to have dropped considerably. —Because the numbers of pupils in secondary tops has dropped considerably. These are supplementary classes in national schools following the secondary schools programme. The tendency now is for many of these secondary tops to become formal secondary schools. 331. On subhead C.8.—Special Educational Project—does this refer in any way to teachers’ centres? —No, this is specifically the Van Leer project in Rutland Street. The excess is due to these matters mentioned in the note, but part of that excess comes, of course, from increased contributions to the Van Leer foundation. 332. Chairman.—On subhead D.—Superannuation, etc., of Teachers—it is less than granted but there is no note. The Estimate was £6 million and there is a substantial amount unexpended there although percentagewise it is close enough. There was a Supplementary Estimate brought in and there was an excess of £89,021. Do you wish to make any comment? —The problem here is that, in the case of deaths and voluntary retirements, there is considerable uncertainty. Percentagewise, having regard to the total sum, it is reasonable. —There is a variation also in the retiring salary of people in regard to whether they go before their time or at the top of the scale. VOTE 29—SECONDARY EDUCATION.Mr. D. Ó Laoghaire further examined.333. Chairman.—Paragraph 33 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads: “Subhead J.2.—Secondary, Comprehensive and Community Schools—Building Grants and Capital Costs Reference was made in previous reports to a scheme under which the Department of Education makes funds available for the erection or extension of secondary school buildings on the basis of 70 per cent free grants and 30 per cent loans repayable with interest over 15 years. The charge to the subhead includes £1,097,666 grants and £122,698 loans. Loan repayments under the scheme amounting to £244,087 were received during the year and appropriated in aid of the Vote (subhead L.4). A statement of loans is appended to the appropriation account. Loan repayments in arrears at 31 March 1974 amounted to £32,209. I have asked the Accounting Officer for information on the circumstances in which arrears arose and on the action being taken for their recovery.” Mr. Mac Gearailt.—I understand that the position in regard to the arrears mentioned in this paragraph has now been satisfactorily settled. Arrears amounting to £7,000 approximately have been cleared following the acquisition by the Department of two of the schools concerned as community schools. The balance of arrears, £25,000 approximately, has since been recovered. 334. Chairman.—Paragraph 34 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads: “Prefabricated Building Units Suspense Account Reference was made in previous reports to the charge to a suspense account of recoverable expenditure incurred on the purchase of prefabricated classroom buildings for use by primary, secondary and vocational schools. At 31 March 1973 the balance outstanding on this account was £351,347 of which £258,000, approximately, was due from vocational education committees. In the year under review, further payments for prefabricated classrooms amounted to £385,783. £582,107 was recovered leaving a balance outstanding of £155,023 at 31 March 1974 of which £102,700, approximately, was due from vocational education committees.” Mr. Mac Gearailt.—This matter was previously considered by the Committee in its examination of the Accounts for 1971-72 and was dealt with in its Report on these Accounts. The scheme for the bulk purchasing of prefabricated classrooms was terminated in 1974 and I understand that the suspense account was completely cleared by 31st December, 1975. Chairman.—Would the Accounting Officer like to make any comment? —Just that the balance is cleared up. 335. On subhead A.3—Science and Other Equipment Grants—I take it that in these grants for equipment there is the element of increased costs which affects the estimation. —Yes, this is a refund of 75 per cent of what the school would pay and that would depend on the inflation of costs. 336. Deputy H. Gibbons.—Have you any control over what they purchase? —The inspector checks but our experience is that since the schools must pay 25 per cent of this themselves they are fairly economical. 337. Chairman.—On subhead A.4.—Grant for Irish and Bilingual Schools—there is a note which states that the number of schools using Irish as a medium of instruction was less than anticipated. The use of Irish as a medium of instruction has generally declined? —Yes. 338. On subhead A.5.—Bonus for Choirs and Orchestras, etc.—some claims for grants were not presented for payment within the year. How is that controlled? If a payment is not made within the year what is the accounting requirement for payment of these grants? Has it been due to any laxity in presenting bills? —Not laxity in presenting bills, but if the claim does come through us we cannot deal with it. If the claim is in any way delayed, do you inquire why? —I do not think so. 339. From an accounting point of view, is it not desirable that if a payment is to be made it should be made as soon as possible? —Yes. Do you not do anything to see that that principle is observed? —We tell people that they should claim in time. And if they do not claim in time, is there any sanction? —Not really, except the non-payment of the money. They do not get the money, that is true, but if they know they will get it eventually—— —From our point of view it might mean that no activity took place. 340. If you receive a claim today in respect of a demand which should have been furnished and the claim made 18 months or two years ago, will you pay that without question? —No. Will you inquire into the cause of the delay? —Yes. 341. Deputy Toal.—On subhead D.— Scholarships and Prizes—this shows a substantial decrease. —This is an expiring item. These are secondary level scholarships which are not now awarded. 342. Chairman.—On subhead E.—Publication of Irish Text Books—do you mean text books in Irish or text books produced in Ireland? —Text books in the Irish language. 343. On subhead J.1.—Comprehensive and Community Schools—Running Costs— can this give rise in a subsequent year to a question by the Comptroller and Auditor General as to why payments did not occur in the year? From an audit point of view, he has not yet got notice of it—I take it that is because it just does not appear, he simply sees a saving. Is there any reason accounts were not presented in time for payment? It is a question akin to the other one I asked. Has the Accounting Officer any comments to make? —Unfortunately, I do not have any note on this.* 344. The position at this moment is as I have said. I am looking to succeeding committees and asking questions which they might be expected to ask. On subhead I.— Appropriations-in-Aid—examination fees of students—the note reads: “The excess is due to an increase in examination fees since the estimate was framed and to an increase in the number of candidates.” The note dealing with the sale of Irish text books reads: “The number of Irish text books sold was less than anticipated.” There is a picture emerging here, is there not? —It would be easy to be misled by the picture that is emerging here. To some extent this may be a failure in the marketing of Irish books. I am relating it to an earlier answer, but that comment is helpful. 345. Deputy C. Murphy.—Does this involve only text books to secondary schools at that level? —Yes. Chairman.—Irish is no longer a compulsory subject. —The sale of these publications is not related only to text books. There is quite a lot of general reading available through the group. In my view, it is possible to realise greater receipts from the sale of these publications. An Gúm? —The Gúm publications, yes. 346. In the past, was there not a catastrophic mountain of unwanted material that had to be shifted? —There is a certain amount of material that goes out of fashion. In the past there was a very big accumulation which had to be disposed of at a considerable loss. Is this happening again? Deputy C. Murphy.—I was lucky enough to get books by Cathal Ó Sandair at a reduced rate. I raised this question last year. The Accounting Officer mentioned this marketing problem. I mentioned the non-availability and the non-issue of new books for young children. —It was because of Deputy Murphy’s question that I looked into this. I think there is scope for better marketing of these books. 347. I am delighted to hear that. There is absolutely nothing for young children coming along. It is a pity. It makes it very difficult that at Christmas, a time when people are willing to spend and buy Irish and promote Irish by buying books for children, nephews, nieces etc., nothing is available. —The situation was better this year. There were more books available this year. It could not have been worse than it was last year. I think there was only one new book in the year. —I speak with a certain amount of diffidence because it is not entirely my responsibility. There may be factors on the other side in relation to marketing of which I am not aware, but I do feel that there is—— Chairman.—You have not complete control of the relation of the horse to the water? —No. 348. Deputy Toal.—Where money has been voted and where a substantial amount is not required due to the fact that various bodies and sections in education have not furnished their returns within the year, do those accounts come into the next year? —In some cases, claims can come in to the next year. Do they come in? Has there ever been a question of an account not being paid, being flatly refused due to the fact that it was not furnished in time? —I do not think so. Most of them are considered when they come in. It depends on the availability of money for the succeeding year. So there is a general overflow from one year to another? —In some cases, yes. VOTE 30—VOCATIONAL EDUCATION.Mr. D. Ó Laoghaire further examined.349. Chairman.—Paragraph 35 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads: “Subhead A.—Annual Grants to Vocational Education Committees Subhead I.2—Regional Technical Colleges —Student Assistance Financial assistance to post-primary students desiring to pursue non-degree courses in Regional Technical Colleges is provided under scholarship schemes operated by vocational education committees and grants paid to these committees from subhead A of the Vote include a provision for such schemes. As this provision proved inadequate to enable committees to provide for all qualified students seeking such assistance, a new subhead, I.2. was opened on the direction of the Minister for Finance to provide additional funds for the scholarship schemes. The total amount issued from the Vote for these schemes in the year ended 31 March 1974 came to £305,600 of which £120,000 was charged to subhead 1.2 and £185,600 was included in the grants paid from subhead A. I understand that £234,275 was expended by the vocational education committees on these schemes in the year ended 31 March 1974.” Mr. Mac Gearailt.—This paragraph draws attention to the fact that the provision for assistance to students pursuing non-degree courses at Regional Technical Colleges was shared between two subheads of this Vote. While there is no question of duplicate payments being made to Vocational Education Committees from these subheads, nevertheless, in the interests of proper accounting, full provision should have been made for this service under a single subhead. 350. Chairman.—What does the Accounting Officer say to that? —I could not agree more. We wanted to put it all into A but we did not get agreement for that. Why not? —I think there was a feeling that this item of student assistance should be shown as a separate item. Unfortunately, it is not really a separate item because the vocational education committees had been giving students assistance out of their general funds before we went to increase the amount available for assistance at regional technical colleges. The Department of Finance took the view that this should be a separate subhead. We have felt that it should all be made one. The main reason we feel this is that the issue of grants to the vocational education committees is controlled by section 53 of the Vocational Education Act and we have to make regulations in relation to the money. If we were dealing with it rigidly in two subheads we would have to make two sets of regulations. It is extremely difficult for us to account for the money that the VECs spend on regional technical colleges grants specifically and apart from their general expenditure on scholarships and student assistance. In other words, you cannot take it all completely under subhead I.2. —No, I.2. was £120,000. Yes, but you cannot take the contents of subhead A. into I.2? —No. We would prefer to deal with the whole thing under A. 351. I am becoming an advocate for the Department of Finance for the moment. I can see their point, in that subhead A is grants to the vocational education committees for all their purposes. Is that not so? Subhead I.2. is specific, student assistance. The snag arises from the fact that in their own general administration they are making provision for student assistance. —That is correct. Is it not possible to break A down and put the content of the student assistance which they give into A.2? If it is not, that is another day’s work. —It is perfectly possible, but it means that since the only grants we can give to vocational education committees are under section 53 of the Act, we would have to have two sets of regulations—one for the general purposes of the VEC and one for student assistance in R.T.Cs. 352. And what is wrong with two regulations? —There are 38 vocational education committees, and the purpose and utility of doing that is something I do not see. 353. I wonder would you be prepared to send the Committee a factual note. We are not asking for opinions, a factual note on the position so that we could form an opinion. We would be glad to have that. —Yes, certainly.* 354. Deputy H. Gibbons.—You make assistance available to pupils but if they do not apply by a certain date they cannot avail of this assistance? —This is done by way of an actual scholarship scheme administered by the vocational education committee. We approve the scholarship scheme. If a pupil is late in applying for this, is he excluded for that year? —Yes. They are not acceptable for the following year? —Not unless they want to commence their course again. If they want to commence their course in the following year, yes. 355. Is this procedure different to that of the grants in the universities? —I do not think so. I am thinking of two specific cases. I remember about two or three years ago a pupil failed to apply for the grant in the first year in the university. It was pointed out to him that if he passed the university examination in the first year he would qualify for the grant in the second and third year. More recently a vocational pupil who failed to apply in time for this assistance was excluded completely and I thought there was something unjust about this if it is the present situation. —The reason for the exclusion of second year and third year candidates from the vocational education committee scheme is that they would have been competing directly with first year candidates. I understood that in the university scheme it was at entry only that the scholarship was awarded. The Accounting Officer may be correct at this point of time. I am thinking about previous situations only. I do not know whether the situation has changed since or not. I suggest there is something unjust about it if the situation is as I say it existed. 356. Deputy C. Murphy.—I know that something issued from the office which would allow these scholarships and money to be extended to second and third year students, but this was withdrawn in a matter of a few days. —That is right. Why was that? —It was in order to bring it into conformity with the university scholarship scheme. It was not a matter of finance or availability of funds? —No. It was a matter of principle, a matter of avoiding competition from second and third year students in the colleges with first year students for the scholarships that were available. This is something we can look at again. I know from the VEC meeting at home that it was not clear that a matter of principle was involved, but rather a matter of finance. —It was not a matter of finance. 357. Deputy H. Gibbons.—Is the Accounting Officer satisfied that a student going to the university cannot get his grant for the second and third year under the circumstances I stated. —That is my understanding. 358. I could never understand why it should be necessary to have to apply for those scholarships before the date of the examination results. Why can they not be applied for when the results come out and the student knows where he stands? Perhaps there is some administrative reason for it, but nobody has pointed it out to me yet. —It depends on the terms of the scheme. I will have another look at the point you are raising. There is something terribly harsh to find the pupil with a very difficult financial background losing an opportunity in education just because he did not apply before a certain date. It is a rare happening. The amount involved would be small. But for the particular family it can be heartbreaking. I almost missed a university scholarship by not knowing the dates, because I was not aware that such existed until I had the leaving certificate done. I certainly feel for others who find themselves in the same position. Something should be done about this because each year one or two people for one reason or another fail to apply for those scholarships. I can see no administrative reason why scholarship terms should not be drawn up to meet this contingency and to deal with it post the examination results. —Our general problem is that if you do not fix a definite date, it is very difficult to secure that justice is done all round. When you fix a definite date, you have all the applications, you are dealing with a limited number of scholarships and you have a competition on fairly definite terms. If you accept late applications, there is a moral obligation to re-advertise the whole scheme and give other people an opportunity of applying late. This makes the operation of the scheme very difficult. 359. Chairman.—We are now on the borderline between what you might call policy and administration and I am trying to keep to the administrative point of view and to our own function here. Surely to take the course of having it tidy in the beginning has a restrictive effect on the implementation of the statute, for instance, and can, in fact, result in forced savings. —To some extent yes. In principle, from an accounting point of view, that is very nearly a device, even though the amount involved is very small, for administrative convenience. —I do not think I could accept that. I am making Deputy Gibbons’ point relevant to our business. —If as a result of throwing the thing open I find myself in the position of exceeding the amount—— That is a different story. You are talking about exceeding your own estimates. What you are saying there is that you want to save yourself from yourself? —No. I am pursuing the logic of what I am saying—— —I want to save myself from the courts. We are talking completely impersonally in this. 360. Deputy C. Murphy.—On the administration of the scheme, I find, as Deputy Gibbons said, that the reason people are late is that pupils attending secondary schools, as distinct from vocational schools, are not aware of their entitlements. I would like also to support what Deputy Gibbons said about the scholar who discovers that because he did not apply the first year he cannot be recognised. Even in the case of the death perhaps of his father, he is still not covered. The Accounting Officer is worried in case there is overexpenditure on the scheme. Of the 19 applications to the VEC in Wicklow, 12 came from the scholars which the CEO and the VEC decided had suitable backgrounds, but had to be refused because of the ridiculous administrative means test. I know this is a hard statement, but it is the truth. This is where savings are made on the administration of the scheme. In my view, maybe savings were made at the expense of these 12 young people in Wicklow. —Could I say two things about this? There is certainly no desire on the part of the Department of Education or any vocational education committee, or any scholarship committee to save money, but nobody has ever been able to operate the scholarship scheme, which is competitive, without a closing date. 361. Chairman.—I fail to see why the closing date is not fixed at some definite time after the appearance of the results. —This would make the scheme impossible to administer. You would have no definite applicants until after the examination results come out, which is the month of August, and the students should be starting in their schools in September. It is not possible to administer the scheme on that basis. You have a point there. —It would mean that all the work of awarding scholarships and investigating everything would have to be done in the month of September, when the schools are already open. 362. Deputy H. Gibbons.—By accepting that the announcement could be made that those scholarships are available for all those who apply for them without any latest date, you would perhaps get in 75 per cent of them in time. The universities have to deal with this problem, too. When they get the results they are faced with this time system and indeed they have—— —That is admission, not scholarship. The university problem in regard to people coming in is a question of whom they admit. That is something that cannot be settled and the university date is October. This is a question of the scholarship scheme which is governed by a competition—— Deputy C. Murphy.—And the means test. —Yes. And unless one were to take the view that every eligible candidate was going to get assistance, it would involve a considerable amount of money. There has to be some competition. Chairman.—Yes, I take your point about the question of time. We are very much on a border line here as to our functions. Deputy C. Murphy.—Just on administration, could I further indicate that while I can see the Department’s difficulties, we, when we had our first closing date, obtained certain applicants in Wicklow. We found that many did not qualify, we had certain scholarships available, and we readvertised. The second time we advertised we got applications from people who had better educational qualifications than those who applied the first time. This, perhaps, could be put down to the fact that people were trying elsewhere for jobs that did not turn up. I feel it must be put down to the lack of information and promotion of this scheme. 363. Deputy H. Gibbons.—There is one point I would like to deal with. The examination is not competitive in the sense that you are setting up a competition for those people. They have the standard examination of Leaving Certificate. The only thing that makes it a competition is having a latest date. —No, having a limited number of scholarships. Having a limited number of scholarships, those with the highest marks would get them. To this extent it would be easy enough to deal with, just the same as the universities, to my mind, have a more difficult situation to deal with than vocational schools, on this point. You are only dealing with a group of marks coming in. 364. Chairman.—I am afraid that in one sense we are digressing. Our function does extend as far as seeing whether the statutory provisions are or are not being properly implemented and, after that, to the accounting and expenditure aspects. That question has been raised and the answer has been given to us as far as we are concerned. If the Committee require any further information, we can ask for it, but we have to leave the matter at that. —I have heard the views and noted them, and I will see what I can do. We ourselves have another place to pursue this. VOTE 31—REFORMATORY AND INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS.Mr. D. Ó Laoghaire called.No question. VOTE 32—HIGHER EDUCATION.Mr. D. Ó Laoghaire further examined.365. Chairman.—Paragraph 36 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads: “Subhead A.3.—An tÚdarás um Árd-Oideachas—Building Grants to Universities and Colleges and Designated Institutions of Higher Education (Grant-in-Aid) Subhead A.4.—An tÚdarás um Árd-Oideachas—Capital Equipment Grants to Universities and Colleges and Designated Institutions of Higher Education (Grant-in-Aid) Grants-in-Aid provided in the above subheads for capital purposes and amounting to £2,480,000 were paid in full in the year under review to An tÚdarás. I noticed in the course of the audit of its accounts for the year ended 31 March 1974 that An tÚdarás had a cash balance in excess of £700,000 on hands in the Capital Grants Account at that date and that this balance remained substantially unissued in June 1974. As it appears that public moneys in excess of immediate cash requirements were paid to An tÚdarás, I have asked the Accounting Officer for his observations.” Mr. Mac Gearailt.—This paragraph draws attention to the issue of public moneys to An tÚdarás um Árd-Oideachas in excess of its immediate cash requirements, mainly on its Capital Grant Account. The balance on this Account at 31st March, 1974 amounted to £750,000 approximately and remained at a figure in excess of £400,000 during the remainder of 1974. Following the issue of further voted moneys in that year the balance on hands increased once more and at 31st December, 1974, amounted to £1,000,000 approximately. The Accounting Officer informed me that his Department proposed to consult the Department of Finance regarding the basis on which advances were made to the Higher Education Authority. He also stated that the Authority anticipated that no substantial cash balance should remain on hands at 31st December, 1975. It is important that money should not be issued from the Exchequer either before it is required to meet matured liabilities or in larger sums than the service for which it is issued requires. 366. Chairman.—That comment seems to require an explanation. —The position in regard to it is that the Higher Education Authority, when it had £750,000 in its account, had claims for £600,000, practically, on hand for work that had been done. These claims are processed through to the Department’s building unit, so that to some extent the Department itself was holding up the clearance of these things due to the pressure of work on the building unit and the technical difficulties of actually clearing them. There were other liabilities also on hands. Generally it was felt that, particularly when you are coming to the close of the year with an authority like the Higher Education Authority and with the demands on capital, financing of university projects could be very difficult if the Department of Education were in the position of surrendering large amounts of capital on the 31st December, which it might be difficult to vote again the following year. We accept fully that these moneys should not be issued from the Exchequer before it is absolutely necessary, and we have been in touch with the Higher Education Authority on this. We have an arrangement with them that the issues would be on the basis of information from the Higher Education Authority in relation to their anticipated receipts and expenditure of each quarter. In relation to the final quarter of the year, we want to ensure that the charge on the Vote for the year will not exceed the actual amount required for the payment of the accounts during the year. We feel that with co-operation between the Higher Education Authority and the Department this should not happen again. 367. Chairman.—What about balances accumulating? —We want to prevent these balances accumulating. But balances which have accumulated? —The balances which have accumulated have now been liquidated. Mr. Mac Gearailt.—The balance that was accumulated at the end of the financial year would obviously be used partly or wholly in the following year. In the year we are talking about 1973-74, the accounts of the authority show that they earned some £40,000 in bank interest. I am concerned that it would cost the Department of Finance a good deal more to borrow that money than the authority got from the bank by way of interest. We are always aiming at what we call “economy of balances.” We certainly do not like any authority or institution to have voted money idle in banks. Chairman.—Why should it not be financed from the State in the normal way, by drawing as required? —This is what we are arranging. 368. On subhead C.2.—Dublin Dental Hospital, Building Grant—does that mean there was no expenditure? Does it mean that you will have to meet that expenditure in the subsequent year? —This will probably arise subsequently. The witness withdrew. The Committee deliberated. The Committee adjourned. |
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