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MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA(Minutes of Evidence)Déardaoin, 19 Feabhra, 1976.Thursday, 19th February, 1976.The Committee met at 11 a.m.
DEPUTY de VALERA in the chair. Mr. S. Mac Gearailt (An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste) called and examined.VOTE 18—VALUATION AND ORDNANCE SURVEY.Mr. D. F. Ryan called and examined.581.—Chairman.—On subhead A—Salaries, Wages and Allowances—there was £29,719 less than granted. Was that due to the fact that you had not staff? —The overall reason for that delay in recruiting staff is trying to get through the Civil Service Commission. As far as the Valuation Office is concerned there was a saving on six valuer posts, an additional messenger and cleaner. There were changes in movements in the clerical assistant and clerical officer grades. That accounted for a saving of £7,000 to £8,000. As far as the Ordnance Survey is concerned there was provision for 20 technical assistants but only seven were recruited which gave a saving of £9,960. There was also provision of about £8,600 for recruitment of additional trainees and mapping assistants who were not recruited during the year and another £1,000 in delay in filling a placenames officer vacancy. That made up about £28,000 or £29,000. practically all the money. 582. Have you a difficulty in filling vacancies? —We have not really a difficulty in filling vacancies at present but in these circumstances you have to budget for having the people in. And they do not come as quickly as you expect? —You get on to the Civil Service Commissioners and they set up an appointments board and by the time they process it and the people give notice and so on a lot of time elapses. 583. Deputy Griffin—Have you your full complement of staff now? —No neither in the Valuation Office nor in the Ordnance Survey Office. The present complement is 190 in the Ordnance Survey Office and it is expected that about 35 will be recruited in the Ordnance Survey in 1976. Ordnance Survey is an expanding organisation with a big mapping programme which has met with approval. This mapping programme, if it is to be completed within the next 20 to 25 years, needs additional recruitment, about 60 head of staff per year until 500 staff are recruited. Likewise, there are vacancies for a certain number of valuers. For the last competition for valuers in the Valuation Office two people came to us and left to go to the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries. We had some retirements and we did not get quite as many qualified as there were vacancies last year. I am not quite certain of the number of vacancies in the Valuation Office but this year there will be about seven or eight on the present authorised staff, at least that. 584. Chairman—On the question of staff, the face of the country is changing rapidly and from the point of view of accurate and reliable maps, even road maps, you have a growing problem? —Correct. It is a policy matter more than an accounting matter, but it is obviously a problem for you and your office in the future? —My predecessors set up an advisory committee in 1964. At that time to bring all the large scale maps and the small scale maps up to date with the existing staff it was estimated would have taken 100 years. The changes will alter that time schedule?? —The Assistant Director is hopeful that we can get the time schedule down to about 20 years and we will get all our mapping programme up to date. 585. If you are too slow and unable to produce the maps in a reasonable time the changes that are happening are so rapid that, indeed, your map is out of date almost by the time it is published and that particular work, and the survey going with it, is virtually wasted? —With great respect, not quite so because there would be a system of continuous revision from the time the maps are made to keep them up to date. That comment was meant to help you. I was trying within the ambit of our responsibility to give you a reason why you would need to have the staffing facilities to keep going. —But for a sovereign country such as ours it is necessary to have our mapping programme brought up to date as quickly as possible. 586. Deputy C. Murphy.—On subhead E.—Equipment—I am surprised there is a small saving there although I welcome it, but printing costs must have soared in your sector. You seem to have very accurately budgeted for this. Do you find, in fact, that printing has become very expensive? —Yes. Paper has become very expensive but the costs are reasonably stable in printing. Chairman.—The bulk of your printing would be map printing which is a process in itself? —Yes, that is so. 587. Deputy C. Murphy.—Do you try to sell these maps at a small profit or rather is it just at a break-even figure? This would probably explain why it is so accurately estimated and why equipment and printing has, more or less, broken even. I thought you would have an adverse balance in that but it would appear that the maps pay for themselves? —The large scale maps are heavily subsidised but, in fact, the break-even position there is not quite all it represents. Under this subhead E—Equipment—a number of items were not purchased, or the purchase was deferred. For instance, a cartographic camera and a guillotine were not purchased, the purchase was deferred because the new printing building at the Ordnance Survey office was not ready at the time. These savings were then offset by materials we could not get delivery of the previous year. There was, for instance, a folding machine, which cost quite a lot of money, a theodolite and an air survey machine which cost a great deal more than was originally anticipated. You can well imagine that in this inflationary period prices can go up very quickly. You may be drawing the inference that the saving is there but one thing counterbalances the other. 588. Chairman.—On Appropriations in Aid—the contributions, estimated and realised, are the same so that is probably a fixed sum? —That is under an Act of 1874. This £6,295 is a fixed sum which represented half the cost of the annual revision of valuations by the local authorities at that time. There is no reference to 1976. We are stuck with that. The only exception to it would be in so far as the county boroughs are concerned where, under an 1898 Act, for general revision, we could seek half the cost but only two of the county boroughs availed of that. 589. The fees payable are up on your estimate, was that an increase in fees? —No, it is not an increase in fees. This is something that you cannot predict. People want extracts from the valuation documents but—— The fees remain the same? —Yes, they are quite small. 590. Generally speaking, what is comprised under the heading “Miscellaneous”. —Roughly, “Miscellaneous” would include things like fees for betting licence cases where we have to provide certificates of valuation, rent restriction cases and apportionments of buildings. For instance, if a portion of a city house were vacant and the shop portion were used the owner could seek relief of rates on the vacant portion from the corporation. We charge fees for that kind of thing. 591. Your sales on maps have increased. Has that been a question of increased price or increased demand, probably both? —No, not increased price. This was 1973-74 and the first estimates were made in 1972. There was, and is, a very gloomy picture as far as the tourist industry is concerned and one would expect that the sales of maps would tend to decrease. In fact, the sales of maps were much more buoyant than expected. There was an increase in price scheduled and this may have encouraged people to buy before the price went up. That is a good explanation and, secondly, it is an indication that your office were thinking ahead in making their estimate and taking all factors into account. 592. Deputy C. Murphy.—On sale of maps, have you a financial arrangement with the Department of Education in the case of their certificate examinations when they require these maps for the subject of geography? —Yes, we have. It is shown in Appendix A of the account. Chairman.—It is obvious that the Departments that are likely to need maps are Defence and Lands. One would have thought there would have been more required between these. Anyway it is a pretty representative picture. 593. Deputy Moore.—Might we attempt in the near future doing hydrographic charts of the coastal waters? It has not been done yet? —No. There are a few new naval ships. I wonder are they doing anything in this regard? The British Admiralty are doing it at the moment. —They do that at the moment but we are not doing it yet. It would be a matter of a policy decision for us to undertake such work. Would it be very expensive? —Yes, and there would have to be liaison with the Navy. It is a Naval responsibility at the moment. 594. Deputy C. Murphy.—It seems from the amounts realised for special work in the case of the Office of the Minister for Finance, £204—that there was not a big survey involved, just a record check. One would expect that if there was any extraordinary work to be done the expense would be great. —There are no special maps for them. These were ordinary maps and the sum given represents the face value of the maps. 595. Deputy Griffin.—On Appendix B— a list of the various institutions which received maps—as a matter of interest, how were these institutions chosen? Do they make application themselves? I suppose it is a long standing arrangement but have you got any latter-day applications from other institutions such as St. Patrick’s Training College in Drumcondra or Mary Magdalen College? —Under different Acts the Ordnance Survey is authorised to supply maps to other establishments. There are maps given to the Ordnance Survey in Britain and in Northern Ireland but we have not, so far as I am aware, had any applications from other institutions. In fact, the Ordnance Survey is not bound to honour any such requests. Under these Acts the commercial institutions would be bound in certain instances to provide maps. VOTE 19—RATES ON GOVERNMENT PROPERTY.Mr. D. F. Ryan further examined.596. Deputy Toal.—On subhead B.— Contributions towards Rates on Premises occupied by Representatives of External Governments—is it the position that on all property which is valued the rates theoretically must be paid? —Yes. And we as a State pay the rates on property occupied by foreign Governments in this country? —I had better expand on that slightly. Residences or premises occupied by representatives of external Governments are rated and provided that the occupiers or members of the staff and so on are not Irish citizens or are not permanently resident in Ireland what happens is that in these cases the rates are divided into what are called beneficial and non-beneficial. The representatives of the external Governments pay what is called the beneficial section of the rates which includes water supply, sewerage, fire brigade and so on. The non-beneficial section would be things like unemployment assistance, hospitalisation and so on. This would be paid by the State. It is done in two ways. If the rate in the £ is £6, £4 of which may be beneficial and £2 non-beneficial, the external Government pays the entire amount and then looks for a refund for the non-beneficial amount from the State. Alternatively, the external Government and the State each pays its own section directly to the local authority. 597. There is a reciprocal arrangement with every other country in which we are represented? —There is a reciprocal arrangement with every other country but we have difficulty with the Americans. 598. Chairman.—On Appropriations in Aid—Nos. 4 and 5—was this a token Estimate? In the Posts and Telegraphs one you had a Supplementary Estimate in addition and at the same time your Appropriations-in-Aid were likely to be greater, the reason being merely an accounting matter? —It is part of the reason but part of the reason also was, of course, that the total Estimate was made in 1972. Then there was a change of Government in March, 1973 and the health charges were taken off the rates. There was a very rapid re-assessment and it was estimated that the rate in the £ would fall by 3 per cent. It fell by only 2 per cent. So that would explain it, particularly in the case of the Post Office. Chairman.—Our point is that this Office are doing something which we have been watching because of certain laxity that was growing in other Departments, namely that when there is an adjustment the proper thing to do is to bring in a Supplementary Estimate to the House even though it is only a token Estimate and so put their accounting in order. That is the point I am making. I want to draw attention to the fact that it is done—I think the Members will appreciate why I say this—properly in this Estimate. We want to see it done in all other Departments. Does the Accounting Officer want to say anything further about this matter? —I would like to thank the Chairman and the members of the Committee for treating me so gently. The witness withdrew. VOTE 39—LABOUR.Mr. T. Ó Cearbhaill called and examined.599. Chairman.—Paragraph 48 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads: “Subhead H.—Resettlement Allowances Subhead P.—Appropriations-in-Aid The scheme providing for the payment of resettlement allowances, which is operated by the Department’s National Manpower Service, was formally approved by the Commission of the EEC as qualifying for assistance from the European Social Fund at the rate of 50 per cent. of eligible expenditure in the year 1973. A sum of £14,000 was received from the Fund in March 1974 towards expenditure of £37,773 under the scheme in the period 1 January to 31 October 1973 and was credited to appropriations-in-aid on a direction of the Minister for Finance under the European Communities (State Financial Transactions) Regulations, 1972.” Mr. Mac Gearailt.—This paragraph is for information. I understand that a further payment of £6,922 was received from the European Social Fund in August, 1974. 600. Chairman.—Paragraph 49 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads: “Subhead L.2.—Irish Management Institute—Grant for Building Purposes As mentioned in paragraph 75 of my previous report the sanction of the Minister for Finance was obtained for a grant of up to half the cost of a new headquarters building for the Institute within a grant limit of £400,000. A further payment of £150,000 in the year under review brought grants issued to £300,000 at 31 March, 1974. The audited accounts of the Institute for the year ended 31 March, 1974 show expenditure of £786,680 on land and buildings for the new headquarters at that date.” Mr. Mac Gearailt.—This paragraph is for information. A further grant of £100,000 was made to the Institute in 1974 to bring the total grant paid up to the authorised limit of £400,000. I understand that the centre was completed in 1974 at a cost of £1,300,000. Deputy Toal.—Was there not some conflict here at one stage between the Irish Management Institute and the transfer of another Government Department or some such body into their premises? —There have been suggestions from time to time that the Irish Management Institute and the Institute of Public Administration should co-operate to the extent of sharing facilities. This may be what the Deputy has in mind. An arrangement for sharing has been made since with respect to certain courses that are common because they are of a managerial type applicable to both the public service and to business generally. 601. Chairman.—Paragraph 50 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads: “Subhead O.—Grants for Trade Union Education and Advisory Services The charge to the subhead, £29,915, represents a grant paid to the Irish Congress of Trade Unions for trade union education and advisory services. This financial assistance was formerly provided by the Irish Productivity Centre from the grant-in-aid provided in the Vote for Industry and Commerce. Audited accounts of the grant expenditure have been made available by Congress.” Mr. Mac Gearailt.—This paragraph is for information. The Irish Congress of Trade Unions agreed that this grant be paid into a special account to be separately audited and submitted to the Department of Labour. 602. Deputy Governey.—On subhead A —Salaries, Wages and Allowances—we seem to come across this delay in filling vacancies in quite a few Departments. In this case I wonder if it is due to the fact that you cannot get applicants or because of the delay in setting up interview boards? —The first point I would like to make is that in my experience there has been a saving of up to 5 per cent per annum in this provision. The saving this year is slightly below that. There are inevitable delays in filling vacancies when, say, somebody retires or is promoted to another Department. In the case of Civil Service Commission appointments it takes quite a while to set up the interview board, etc. In one of the instances that year there was a dispute with the professional association concerned with regard to the kind of qualification that would be accepted by incoming people. These negotiations took some time. There have been discussions with the Civil Service Commission and they have quite considerably reduced the time taken in organising competitions. 603. Chairman.—On subhead C—Post Office Services—were there any unusual circumstances there? —No, except that the figure is negotiated with the Post Office quite some time in advance and settlement is then made in relation to the actual usage of the telephones. In other words there was a safety margin for use there? —Yes. 604. On subhead F—International Organisations—there is a slight over-expenditure. The excess is due mainly to an increase in contribution towards the expenses of the ILO. I take it that is just general present trends? —Yes, and also the fact that the contribution to the ILO is paid in dollars and a change in the exchange rate could change this one way or another. It happened after the estimate was prepared. 605. On subhead G—Research—there is a considerable saving here; do you wish to comment on it? —Except to say that it is very difficult to make a realistic estimate for a service of this kind. While there is a list of projects available which could be suitable for investigation at any time, other organisations, such as the Economic and Social Research Institute, are doing these and we have access to the results. We also have access to the work of international organisations and of British institutions. 606. Deputy C. Murphy.—On subhead I —Career Information—would that mean there is less demand or that the office are not publicising these careers? —Over three million of these leaflets are distributed every year. The cost of printing the leaflet is borne by the Stationery Office Vote. This expenditure relates, firstly, to payments to St. Michael’s Workshop in Goatstown who make up these leaflets and distribute them to schools, libraries and other organisations. There is also a small fee paid to people who prepare the leaflets, which are in Irish and English. It is a very inexpensive service. We have a mailing list and every effort is made to supply the leaflets to people interested. There are 300 occupations covered by the leaflets. There is no attempt to curtail this service. 607. I am not suggesting there is; I wanted to know if the same demand was there. When it was originally introduced schools made a big demand for the leaflets. Do you find there is a fall-off in demand resulting in a saving in postage? —No, the people who are on the mailing list continue to receive copies. There are also people who organise career exhibitions in schools, et cetera. There might be a slight falling-off in the incidence of career exhibitions. 608. Are these exhibitions organised just through the schools or through local advisory committees or community services? —Anybody can do it, local groups of various kinds, past pupils unions and so on. It involves very little cost to run these. Staff of the Department are made available to service a stand which we take—we have a mobile stand—at these exhibitions. The cost of the salaries would be borne on subhead A. 609. Chairman.—On subhead L.1—Irish Management Institute: Grant for Training —that is not noted as a grant-in-aid, although it is, I suppose, really a grant-in-aid. What is its accounting nature? Mr. Mac Gearailt.—It is a payment. Chairman.—An authorised payment? —That is right. It is related to their training activities only. It is not related to anything else. And I am sure we would have heard from the Comptroller and Auditor General if there was any irregularity attached to it. Deputy Moore.—Is it a capitation grant? —We are talking about a grant for training. This grant was taken over from the Department of Industry and Commerce who had worked out and negotiated a formula which sought to confine the grant to the training activities of the Institute. This is the basis on which it was paid. This particular formula is watched to ensure that only the training activities are supported. 610. Deputy Toal.—On subhead N— Grants for Advisory Services for Emigrants —under whose aegis was the bureau set up? —There are bureaux in various centres throughout the country. They are all independent. They are voluntary bureaux which were established some years ago to advise intending emigrants, mainly to Britain. They made representations that they were finding it difficult to meet their expenses. The former Minister set up an advisory committee to advise him on possible financial assistance that might be made to them. This service has been declining over the years partly because many of the local bureaux have gone out of business completely. Would the emigrants seek help through the embassy or directly through the bureaux? —Since this year, a Labour Attache has been appointed to the embassy in London who does much of this liaison work. You say that the moneys have been declining every year? —It is £10,000 of which only £6,000 was paid out. That was paid out on the advice of an advisory committee which vetted all the applications from the different bureaux. 611. Chairman.—On Appropriations in Aid—Miscellaneous—you thought you were only going to get £500 but you got £34,000. How did you manage that? —The biggest item here is the receipt from the European Social Fund. When this estimate was being prepared we had not yet joined the EEC. In these days where it is all pay out it is nice to see a little coming into the coffers. 612. Deputy C. Murphy.—If I may go back to subhead A—Salaries, Wages and Allowances—which relates to the number of placement officers, is that figure down? Have you recruited extra people? —Yes, we have about 60 placement officers, the basic placement officer grade. We have eight regional directors in our eight regions throughout the country and we have a small number of guidance officers as well. We attempt to cater for the country as a whole and we would like to have more of these officers, but because of the general decision which prevents any increases taking place in staff levels we have to organise on the basis of doing with the staff that has been authorised. Do you have a full complement of staff? —We have the complement that has been authorised. The witness withdrew. VOTE 41—TRANSPORT AND POWER.Mr. D. Ó Ríordáin called and examined.613. Chairman.—Paragraph 52 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads: “Subhead T—An Bord Fuinnimh Núicléigh (Grant-in-Aid) An Bord Fuinnimh Núicléigh was established on 30 November, 1973 by statutory order made under Section 3 of the Nuclear Energy (An Bord Fuinnimh Núicléigh) Act, 1971. The functions of An Bord are to advise the Government on nuclear energy and matters connected therewith, to keep itself informed of developments in nuclear energy with particular reference to the implications for the State of such developments and to perform other advisory functions as laid down in the Act. The charge to the subhead, £2,500, represents a grant-in-aid issued to meet the expenses of An Bord whose accounts will be audited by me.” Mr. Mac Gearailt.—This paragraph is for information. The chairman and members of An Bord have been appointed by the Minister for Transport and Power with the consent of the Minister for Finance. The accounts of An Bord for the period 30 November, 1973, to 31 December, 1974, have been audited by me in accordance with the provisions of section 20 of the Act. Chairman.—Is this activity going ahead? —In a very modest way. The Board have acquired a chief executive and a secretary. They are in course of recruiting a couple of scientific officers. Unless and until there is a firm decision to go ahead with the nuclear energy station there will not be any major expansion. 614. On subhead D.1—Grant to Córas Iompair Éireann—on a question of words which arose on the previous Estimate we did this morning, the use of the word “grant”, when the grant is not a grant-in-aid, I find confusing. We are a little allergic to grants-in-aid. This grant is simply a payment to Córas Iompair Éireann to carry on? —Yes, at that time under the Statute they were required to break even with the aid of the grant. It is a statutory payment? —It is but how it is described in the Statute I could not say. This is really a detail of accounting which the Comptroller and Auditor General and myself had a few words about owing to my failure to be quick enough on the uptake on the previous Estimate. 615. Deputy Toal.—On subheads D.1, D.2 and D.3—all dealing with grants to Córas Iompair Éireann—is this a usual practice? Under statute they can only get a certain limit by way of grants and additional grants must be extended to them? —Yes, by way of the estimates. There was a big discussion whether that was the appropriate way to do it last year and, it is still a matter between the Committee and the Minister for Finance. The point was that £2,650,000 was not enough in practice. We had to get to the point of meeting each year what the actual loss was. That has been changed now because it is done under the EEC formula. For the present Estimate there is a different formulation of it altogether. Chairman.—On this subhead D3, it is cognate to a problem we have had on other Estimates, the question of payments not duly authorised in time, statutorily. We are waiting a minute from the Department of Finance. This Accounting Officer cannot add very much more to the situation than what he has said. —That is the position. 616. Deputy Moore.—On subhead F.2., do the Department have any say in how the money should be allocated for resort development? —Under the original scheme major resort areas were defined by Bord Fáilte and the money was spent on these largely as pump priming for works by local authorities. The Department in looking at the estimates of expenditure which Bord Fáilte put in each year would have a view about the appropriateness of various expenditures. Generally speaking it is a large on-going commitment dating from a long time back. 617. Chairman.—On subhead F.3—Development of Holiday Accommodation (Grant-in-Aid)—what were the legal difficulties referred to here? —That was the question of the Limerick Inn and the fire escape. 618. Deputy Governey.—On subhead G.2 —Constructional works at Airports including Furnishing of Buildings—is there still the difficulty in getting engineering staff? —This matter is no longer one for the Department. It is now the responsibility of Aer Rianta. I doubt if there are any real difficulties at present because expenditure has been reduced since then. 619. Chairman.—On subhead H—Transport of Staff—did the decline mean that people were using their own cars? —Yes. 620. Deputy Toal.—On subhead N—Rural Electrification—I thought those grants to the board had ceased under the rural electrification scheme, not this particular one but that there would be none after 1973-74? —It is intended to come to an end, but of course there is to be some additional legislation to clear it up. The Minister has made some announcements about clearing up the small residue of houses in certain areas which are very expensive to connect. The ESB were advanced subsidy from the Central Fund. This is an annual payment voted from the revenue of the Department to repay the Central Fund so it can be accurately estimated. 621. Chairman.—On subhead S—Investment Grants for Ships—I take it that there are some outstanding? —At that stage two items came under this: the grant on a certain Irish Shipping vessel is being paid to them in instalments and there are still instalments to come. The scheme itself has been terminated. At that time there were grant commitments to other shipping companies but they did not go ahead with building so payment never arose. It is now ancient history. The only commitment remaining is of the annual instalment to Irish Shipping. 622. Deputy Toal.—On No. 3 of the Appropriations-in-Aid—passenger load fee at airports—does the reduction reflect a fall in traffic on the previous year? —It reflects ultimately the falling off in traffic though some of the immediate causes may be related to other factors. Chairman.—I understand you will not be with us again: we wish you every happiness. —Thank you. The witness withdrew. The Committee adjourned. |
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