Committee Reports > List of Committees > Dáil > 1975 > Committee of Public Accounts > Interim and Final Report - Appropriation Accounts 1972 - 1973

MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA

(Minutes of Evidence)

Déardaoin, 20 Márta, 1975.

Thursday, 20th March, 1975.

The Committee met at 11 a.m.

DEPUTY de VALERA in the chair.

Mr. M. Jacob (thar ceann an Ard-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste) called and examined.

VOTE 45—FOREIGN AFFAIRS.

Mr. P. Keating called and examined.

387. Chairman.—Paragraph 89 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Imprest Accounts

In the course of audit it was noted that the clearance of outstanding balances on a number of imprest accounts was in arrear and I asked for an explanation. I was informed by the Accounting Officer that many factors contributed to the delay, including a greatly increased volume of work, the inexperience of some officers and the continual change of staff in the Accounts Branch over the past two years. I was also informed that the Department of Finance has approved an increase of staff in the Accounts Branch and that it is proposed to ensure that a regular review of these accounts will be carried out in future.”

Mr. Jacob.—A recent review by my officers showed that considerable progress had been made in the clearance of the outstanding accounts.

—This is a difficult problem because of the scattered way the accounts are held. They are held abroad in many cases and it takes a lot of staff to follow them up. We have been making progress in this and we recently asked the Department of the Public Service to look into the possibility of the introduction of computerisation to bring things up to date. That work has not yet started because the computer section will not be in a position to do it for some time to come. It is not even clear that computer use would be advisable. It seems clear, however, that the time has come when a complete overhaul of the accounts branch is required because we still have not replaced the system introduced many years ago.

388. Chairman.—The year in question would correspond with the increased work load from the EEC?

—That is so.

And the impact of relations with the EEC must have had a very severe effect in that year and subsequent years?

—I can give an indication based on the number of staff. In 1971 there were 398; on 1st April, 1973, 500; on 1st January this year, 670. We have had a corresponding increase in the number of people travelling.

389. You seem to suggest that the mere projection of old procedures will not be sufficient and that there is a need to overhaul the accounting system?

—Yes.

Would that be a matter for the Department of the Public Service?

—We are discussing this with the Department of the Public Service and looking into the question of computerisation to see if that would help.

390. We understand the problem. Was there an appropriate compensatory appointment of staff to the Accounts Branch?

—There has been an increase in the number of staff in Accounts Branch. I do not know yet if it is sufficient. We feel the increase in staff has just kept pace with the work in Accounts Branch. The number of staff in Accounts Branch in 1971 was 13, in 1973 it was 16 and in January this year was 22.

Are you quite satisfied with the number of staff you have now?

—This year the staff have been under very great pressures. We would like more staff but we would have to justify that, however.

391. In a Department such as yours that has so many people in the field, so to speak, and where you have to operate rather an extensive system, will a mere increase in accounting staff solve your difficulties in getting individual expenses in in time?

—Yes. There are two problems. One is the collecting of the information and then processing of it when it is collected. If there is a delay—as can happen if there is a shortage of staff—in processing the information, then the delays and the reluctance of people to give priority to sending in their accounts increase also.

392. Anybody in business will agree with that. There is a note on subhead A—Salaries, Wages and Allowances—which states that the savings were mainly due to unfilled posts. I take it they would be what I might call field troops? How are you for qualified personnel?

—We had a very large intake of personnel. We brought in more than 30 new Third Secretaries this year.

393. What particular expertise do you seek for your Department primarily?

—Primarily an honours University degree or equivalent qualification with a capacity to understand historical and political questions. We have been recruiting a great deal of scientists recently who have shown themselves very adept.

394. Do European languages come into that?

—European languages are not a necessary requirement.

As they used to be?

—They have not been a necessary requirement for a number of years. Obviously if people have European languages, that is a qualification which the board which examines them take into account.

It is an advantage?

—Yes. We have in the last few years started considerable on-the-job training in languages. We send people away on language courses. The lack of knowledge of French, in particular, is a very great handicap in the new European situation.

French rather than any other language?

—French in particular because so much of the Community’s work is done in French and very often first copies of documents are published in French.

395. On subhead B—Travelling and Incidental Expenses—and subhead C—Post Office Services—are both covered by one note. The use of certain services provided for in these two subheads proved greater than anticipated. Would this be a reflection again for that particular year?

—Of increased work? Yes.

Unforeseen at the beginning?

—Yes.

This was the year when European activity commenced?

—There are also problems of increased costs all the time.

396. On subhead D—Repatriation and Maintenance of Destitute Irish Persons Abroad. The note reads: accurate estimation is difficult. The number of cases arising during the year proved higher than expected.

Deputy Toal.—Does this refer mainly to students who go abroad and run out of money?

—It can be students. In those cases the money is generally lodged by their parents. It could also refer, for example, to people who are robbed, in which cases we would assist them to come home. We look after people in Great Britain also who, because of their sex and their age, get into difficulties.

397. Chairman.—Page 156 gives a short account of this. The balance outstanding on 1st April, 1972, and the advances in 1972-73, together, amounted to £22,130. The amount recovered and written off was £14,620, leaving a balance outstanding on 31st March, 1973, of £7,510. Is this the net position of that account?

—Yes.

398. Deputy Governey.—The amount of £7,510 at that time had not been recovered, but has it been recovered since?

—It could have been recovered since. The balance outstanding is a continuous one.

399. Deputy Toal.—Do you ever refuse to have anything to do with any of the people who ask for help?

—If people have abused the system before, yes. We do not repatriate from certain countries outside Europe, for example, North America, except in very exceptional circumstances.

400. Deputy H. Gibbons.—What is the position of people who are unable to get their cheques cashed?

—Generally our missions abroad are as helpful as they can be to Irish people who are having problems. There is always difficulty in cashing a cheque for somebody you do not know. In positions such as this, depending on the amount of such cheques and the evaluation of the person presenting the cheque, if the officer concerned had a feeling that the person was in difficulty because he could not cash the cheque and had made a genuine attempt to do so, we would see him right.

401. You mentioned that you did not repatriate from every country. Why do you make a distinction?

—It is a question of the costs involved and the availability of funds to the State.

In my view, the further a person is from home the more he would need help because of the higher costs?

—This is so. In hard cases we have done so. We do not repatriate people from the United States, because of the number of Irish people in the United States and the great cost of repatriating them. These decisions were taken about the time of the Depression when nothing could have been done.

Things have changed since the Depression. We have an airline now which might be flying with free space. Could some arrangement not be made to avail of that?

—If anybody comes to us in difficulties we do the best we can to fix them up on the spot. Very often it is not necessarily helpful to bring somebody home who had been away for any length of time and does not necessarily have any place to go here. We look to our Irish organisations in cities such as New York or Boston to see if they could get them jobs.

402. Deputy Moore.—Do you have any special arrangement in the United Kingdom, for instance, where there are more Irish living than anywhere else? Are there many destitute cases there?

—We have a special arrangement for certain categories in the United Kingdom. Young people, especially girls, who are in need of care and protection and persons unfit for work by reason of either physical or mental ill-health are brought home and arrangements are made for them to be looked after here. In the normal course of events, Irish people in Britain are able to use the social security system there and they prefer to do that. We will also advance money to bring people home from Britain who get into difficulties provided we get a guarantee this money will be repaid.

403. Deputy Toal.—Could you give a breakdown of this? I know of students who roamed over the Continent and when their money ran out, went to the Irish Embassy to try to get home.

—I do not have a breakdown with regard to students. Advances outside the United Kingdom in 1973 covered 203 cases amounting to about £10,000. In the UK we had 184 cases which amounted to about £3,000. The individual amounts are not very great. A number of students have done this but in these cases we make sure their families lodge the money before we repatriate them.

404. Deputy Pattison.—If Irish people get into difficulty in countries where we have not got representation and the British Embassy have to act on their behalf, is a charge made for this service?

—They do not charge us for the service in the sense of charging us for salaries of officials involved. They charge us for cable expenses or repayment of any advances they made, things of that kind, but they do not charge for the service as such.

405. Chairman.—On Information Services, there is a note stating that the provision made for some publications and films was not fully utilised within the year.

Deputy Tunney.—Does the amount that was not spent correspond with a provision that was made in the Estimate for the work that was not done?

—Generally speaking, I would say that this is the case but it is very difficult to be accurate.

406. Deputy H. Gibbons.—No. 1, Appropriations-in-Aid deals with repayments to An Bord Scoláireachtaí Cómhalairte. What does that cover?

—The board is funded by the Grant Counterpart Fund for Marshall Aid. Certain officers in the Department work part-time, providing secretariat staff for the Scholarship Board. By agreement with the United States we are refunded the cost of their services.

What do they do?

—They provide the secretariat. They take minutes of meetings and they also make the arrangements for the scholarship interviews. They make payments to the scholarship grantees.

407. What do the scholarships cover?

—They cover a range of matters depending on the number of scholars sent every year to the United States and the number of American scholars who come here. There are roughly eight Americans who come here and about seven Irish people are going to the United States in the current year. The Americans are contributing to the Irish Universities or institutions, such as the Agricultural Institute, where they lecture. They are, very often, doing research work of their own which makes it interesting for them to come to Ireland. Most of the Irish people who go to the United States are post-graduate scholars. The intention is that the work of both the lecturers who come here and of the Irish scholars who go to the United States should advance the Irish economy.

408. How are they selected?

—The board is appointed by the American Ambassador and by the Irish Government. They hold a series of interviews every year. The advertisements are put in the press announcing when the interviews will be held. The applicants are processed by the Department. The board interviews the qualified people.

VOTE 46—INTERNATIONAL CO-OPERATION.

Mr. P. Keating further examined.

409. Chairman:—On subhead A1, this is probably a political question, how important from a comparative point of view is the Council of Europe now, having regard to the existence of the European Parliament and our EEC activities?

—As we see it, there are two major benefits to be got from the Council of Europe. First is where the nine members of the Community meet with the other western European countries who are not members. It is important to maintain these links. Secondly, the Human Rights Court and the human rights system depend on the Council of Europe. This is equally important.

410. On the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development—B1, contributions to expenses and B2, travelling and incidental expenses—I take it somewhat similar remarks made already relate to OECD?

—Yes. The OECD is a meeting place for economic matters of the developed world. It has got the European countries, it has got Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Canada and the United States. It is now proving to be the forum in which a great deal of work on energy is being done.

411. Deputy Toal—On the United Nations, are the amounts going down since we joined the EEC?

—On the contrary, these tend to go up at the moment because of the Government’s decision to increase expenditure on overseas development aid and, to a large extent, development aid payments fall under these various headings.

412. Deputy Griffin.—How were these figures ascertained? Are they laid down by the United Nations as our contribution?

—They are mostly voluntary contributions which are worked out on what we think is a fair distribution of the moneys available to us and the particular needs on any occasion of these organisations.

413. Deputy H. Gibbons.—We entered the EEC on 1st January, 1973. I see no reference to moneys or contributions towards the EEC.

—The contributions to the EEC come from the Central Fund. For the first three months there was no money due. There were travelling expenses to meetings but they would have been paid for by the EEC.

414. Deputy Moore.—On subhead D2— Travelling and Incidental Expenses of Intergovernmental Legal Bodies—what legal man does what for £3? It seemed extraordinary that out of £2,500 only £3 was spent.

—It was, in fact, a small bank charge.

415. What role does GATT play now that we are in the EEC?

—The negotiations between Europe and the other contracting parties are conducted in GATT. There are very important GATT negotiations going on at the moment between the Common Market and the other contracting parties. These negotiations started in 1973 and will be going on, hopefully, to the end of this year. Our membership of the Community, and the involvement of the Community in GATT negotiations, makes it incumbent on us to be members of GATT.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 39—LABOUR.

Mr. T. Ó Cearbhaill called and examined.

416. Chairman.—Paragraph 75 of the Comptroller and Auditor General’s Report reads:

“Subhead L.2.—Irish Management Institute—Grant for Building Purposes

The sanction of the Minister for Finance was obtained for a grant of up to half the cost of a new headquarters building for the Institute within a grant limit of £400,000. Issues from the grant are made on requisition from the Secretary of the Institute with his confirmation that expenditure sufficient to justify the amount claimed has been incurred. £150,000 was issued in the year under review and the balance of the grant will be paid in 1973-74 and 1974-75. The accounts of the Institute for the year ended 31 March 1973, which have been audited by other auditors, show expenditure of £301,940 on land and buildings for the new headquarters up to that date.”

Mr. Jacob.—The Institute’s report for 1973-74 shows that the new headquarters building was completed during that year.

417. Deputy Toal.—Does that mean that they have vacated their own premises on Orwell Road?

Mr. Jacob.—I think so.

—It was sold to the Russians for an embassy.

Chairman.—This is just for information?

—Yes. It was decided a few years ago to pay up to 50 per cent of the cost of a new building from the Exchequer, to a limit of £400,000 Exchequer contribution. The arrangement was that this £400,000 would be paid over a three-year period—£150,000 in each of two years and £100,000 in the third year. In fact, the building cost substantially more than the £800,000 originally estimated so that the Exchequer contribution was much less than 50 per cent.

418. Deputy Governey.—Did Mr. Ó Cearbhaill say how much was involved?

—No.

Chairman.—Building costs have gone up very substantially.

Deputy Griffin.—Is the Accounting Officer entitled to tell us what the Russians paid?

—It was not a State transaction. The building was not the property of the State.

419. Deputy Toal.—Did the institute own the former building?

—The institute owned the former building and have disposed of it. They used the proceeds to construct a new building. The institute have paid approximately two-thirds of the cost of this and the State has paid about one-third.

Deputy Griffin.—What amount did the whole building realise?

—I can only rely on Press reports—

420. Chairman.—Am I correct in saying that the transaction was mainly a transaction of the Irish Management Institute, and that, as far as you are concerned, it was simply a move?

—Yes. The transaction originally arose from a decision of the Government to assist management training in this form.

421. On subhead A.—Salaries, Wages and Allowances—there is a note:

There was a saving due mainly to delay in filling vacancies of £107,000 on this subhead based on the provision for 1972-73. The saving was offset, during the financial year, by the need to provide for increases in salaries and wages which amounted to £122,000. This would normally be met from the global supplementary estimate for Civil Service remuneration but the savings in the Labour Vote were sufficient to cover the increases. This resulted in a technical excess of almost £15,000 on subhead A.

In other words, what happened there was there was a saving of expenditure in the Department. There were salary and wage increases that would normally require supplementaries. Is that so?

—A global supplementary was voted and it did, in fact, cover the cost of general salary increases in certain other Departments.

You had the surplus which you were able to counter against your increases leaving a net demand more than granted of £14,815.

—That is correct.

422. Deputy Crotty.—How do you reconcile the saving of £51,000 on subhead B.—Travelling and Incidental Expenses—with the sum saved on vacancies unfilled?

—The explanation is that which the Chairman has given. The excess on subhead A is a technical excess; there was really a saving on subhead A partly because of delays in filling vacancies. In my experience up to 5 per cent of subhead A is saved in a normal year through the operation of the recruitment procedures, and the saving in the subhead in the year in question would have been about 5 per cent but for this adjustment. A factor which contributed to the saving on subhead B was that some of the unfilled vacancies were in the grades of industrial inspectors, industrial relations officers and manpower officers. They are the officers who normally do the most amount of travelling as distinct from officials in head office. Also, during this year the Department of Labour had responsibility for the Employment Exchanges, which have since been transferred back to Social Welfare.

423. The explanation is that the people who were not recruited would have a high travelling incidence. I was just putting the question on why there was this saving on travelling. Why are there delays in filling vacancies?

—For one thing, there is some turnover in a service like the Industrial Inspectorate. People who have been in the service for some years, having got experience which is valuable for industry generally, are sometimes attracted into industry. This is something which, while causing some inconvenience to the service, is, however, seen as a long-term benefit to industry and to the community generally. Also, there is sometimes difficulty in attracting people into the service. Sometimes it is because the pay offered may not be high enough. This situation is corrected periodically through the staff associations making demands and the position is settled through the normal conciliation and arbitration procedures of the public service. Basically, the fact is that the inspectorate is developing as a dynamic service. The Department is in competition with industry in recruiting and in holding people, and when they gain experience and if they have ambitions to go into industry they leave the service, leaving us with vacancies to be filled through the authorised procedures of the Civil Service.

424. Deputy Griffin.—This applies to all Departments we have examined. I find the delay in filling these posts, especially with so many unemployed over the years as well as graduates and boys and girls with honours leaving certificates, hard to accept. I would hope in future that these positions will be filled as quickly as possible.

—I am aware that the Department of the Public Service, who are responsible for the recruitment to the public service, have been examining the procedures of the Civil Service Commission with a view to speeding up recruitment.

425. Chairman.—At the moment we are on the border-line of what is political policy and what is accounting policy; we must not stray too far. What the Deputies are questioning here is possibly this, that there is a situation where although we are dealing with 1972-73 we are conscious that opportunities for employment need to be exploited everywhere. I am sure your Department are alive to the fact that that is one of your functions. Here in the State service there seem to be vacancies. I think that is the first point to which the Deputy is drawing attention. The second point is that one matter which this Committee are particularly concerned with is the economics and efficiency and control of Government expenditure. I should imagine that old tendencies to be efficient and not to over-employ in the service for the sake of employment, to do the work with the minimum expenditure in the most efficient way—in other words, to guard against Parkinson’s Law in the service—is another factor to be taken into account. I just mention these two points in order to keep the discussion on the proper rails but, subject to realising where the border line lies, does any Deputy want to discuss this matter?

Deputy Governey.—Do you find this recurring? Is the work of the Department held up as a result?

—In the case of industrial inspectors, there have been delays because the salaries which were offered at a particular time were not high enough to attract the people we wanted. This situation adjusts itself through labour market forces and through the operation of the conciliation and arbitration scheme. Recruitment procedures have been speeded up somewhat because of initiatives taken by the Department of the Public Service and improvements effected by the Civil Service Commission itself. In the public service recruitment procedures have traditionally been cumbersome compared with the practices of private industry. People before being appointed to the public service, have to be put through clearance procedures, involving character references and health examinations, which are much more time-consuming than the normal recruitment practices of private industry.

Chairman.—The Committee have had a more recent report from the Department of the Public Service and on the last occasion it showed considerable improvement in the situation. We must remember that we are dealing with 1972-73. You would agree with that?

—Yes.

426. Deputy Crotty.—What are the qualifications for a factory inspector, since the Department cannot get the people they require?

—It is a university degree or equivalent qualification from a recognised professional institute.

427. Chairman.—On subhead D—Advertising and Publicity—this does not seem to be a very big sum for a State Department. Is it sufficient?

—Yes, it is sufficient. We are obliged to inform the public about various Orders made by the Minister and in some cases, Orders intended to be made, so that representations and objections may be sought. Much of this occurs in regard to the Labour Court— variations in minimum wages, Joint Labour Committee operations and so on. In the case of the national pay agreement we have arranged, at the request of the employers and trade unions, to publicise it extensively so that people can be fully informed of its terms.

428. On subhead F—International Organisations—is the ILO an important part of this?

—Yes. About three-quarters of this provision is attributable to the ILO and the subscription is determined by reference to certain criteria. It is possible to estimate fairly closely what the expenditure is under this subhead.

429. Subhead G—Research: expenditure here was low. What is the position?

—This is in the nature of seeking statistical information for policy advice. A Department is to a degree in the hands of outside bodies, such as the Economic and Social Research Institute, with regard to the availability of personnel who are skilled and who have reached a stage in their own development in research that they are able to do jobs which are relevant to the work of the Department. On the other hand the Department, with very little expenditure, can draw on the research results of other organisations. There is also the practice of giving a small subvention towards research work being done by persons in the universities or various institutes.

Is it important that you have your own first time checks in certain cases?

—Yes, of course. We have undertaken some research ourselves.

430. Deputy Moore.—On subhead I—Career Information—only £1,137 was spent at a time when young people are crying out for information on careers. Do you not think this was a very small sum to spend on such an important subject?

—The printing of career leaflets is not a charge on this Vote but on the Stationery Office Vote. The number of leaflets distributed in this particular year was about 3 million. There are about 300 leaflets dealing with individual careers. They are produced in English and in Irish and are distributed very freely. We have had no complaints about the inadequacy of this service; in fact, the contrary is our experience. We have a very extensive mailing list of schools, unions of students, trade union bodies and so on.

431. Chairman.—What does this sum cover?

—It covers fees paid to people who write up the material in the leaflets and have them translated into Irish. We usually get somebody who is connected with a particular trade or occupation to do the research. Some of these are unemployed people and they may have worked in these bodies previously. We pay St. Michael’s Workshop in Goatstown for making these up and distributing them. This constitutes one of our biggest payments from this subhead.

Deputy Moore.—That gives us a much better picture. Thank you.

432. Deputy Governey.—In regard to subheads J.1 and J.2—An Chomhairle Oiliúna— I take it that expenditure on the building of these additional centres just did not come under that particular year?

—The big development here has taken place since that year.

433. Deputy Moore.—On subhead K— National Industrial Safety Organisation—is that sum adequate for the sort of work being done there?

—Here also the full charge may not be shown under the subhead because the services of departmental personnel is available. The secretary of this organisation is an officer of the Department whose salary is covered under subhead A. Likewise, a number of our industrial inspectors give lectures, show films and engage in discussions in their official time and this would not be shown separately.

434. Deputy H. Gibbons.—On subhead M— Council for Education, Recruitment and Training of Hotel and Catering Workers (CERT) Grant for training—there has been some criticism of these training courses. Are you satisfied that a lot of it is unjustified?

—Since this particular year the organisation of hotel and catering training has been restructured and is now concentrated in four schools. This in fact was partly in response to criticisms which were received and partly to a feeling that the courses could be improved anyway. We do accept that it was in need of improvement and we are confident that the improvements have now been effected.

435. Deputy Governey.—The note mentions £20,000 to reduce an accumulated deficit. I want to know what exactly this means?

—We are talking about 1972-73 when there was a lot of activity on the tourist front and this was reflected in increased pressure on this organisation CERT to train more people than they had originally planned to train. They then ran into a deficit and we, because we had savings on other subheads of the Vote in that year, made a re-allocation in our funds to them of £20,000, with the approval of the Department of Finance, in order to meet this deficit in part. The rest of it was carried forward to the following year.

436. Deputy Toal.—On subhead N—Grants for Advisory Services for Emigrants—do you have any services abroad to facilitate emigrants who intend coming home to this country?

—Primarily we have the Department of Foreign Affairs. In London we have appointed a Labour attaché to the Embassy and part of his responsibility is to make contacts with Irish organisations with a view to advising them on employment opportunities in Ireland. It is a fact that, despite the unemployment situation, we still have shortages of certain skilled personnel. It is the function of the Labour attaché to give advice to emigrants who may have these skills, for example, to inform them of the benefits of the resettlement scheme. He is in touch with all the important Irish organisations and visits them periodically. The main thrust is in London. They are in other parts of Britain too but the attaché operates from the London Embassy.

437. Do you work in conjunction with the Church and other organisations who advise intending emigrants from this country?

—Yes. The grants are paid to voluntary bureaux which operate in different parts of the country and who give advice to intending emigrants. Much of the material which they distribute is supplied by the Department. We have close contact with them.

438. Deputy Crotty.—What was the situation last year when you spent only half of the Estimate for the year?

—A number of these bureaux which were active in towns throughout the country have closed down. Some of them did not apply for any grants. In some cases the grants applied for were cut down on the advice of an advisory committee which has been established to deal with this. Also, the volume of emigration reduced during the year so there was less demand for the activities of these bureaux. There is the further point that under the European Economic Community the movement of workers throughout the Community between the different States will, in the future, be affected by procedures of co-operation between the national manpower services of the different Community countries, so that in the normal way this type of activity by voluntary agencies would be reducing rather than increasing.

439. Deputy Tunney.—I notice that in subhead E there is a reference in the note to the fact that the only expenditure was on the Advisory Committee on Emigration. We also have a reference to subhead N, grants to these advisory committees. That is the system of accountancy?

—That is right.

440. The cost of the commission is paid for out of subhead E but grants recommended by it come out of another subhead?

—There is a specific subhead for these grants. The body operate as a commission: there could in fact be a number of other committees or commissions as well and these would all be covered by subhead E. All committees or commissions are kept as a matter of accounting practice under one subhead.

Does subhead E just refer to the administrative costs of the actual committee?

—Yes, payment of the expenses of the committee itself.

441. Deputy H. Gibbons.—In the notes dealing with subhead M and subhead P, the reference number of the authorisation of the Department of Finance is quoted but there is no such quotation in A. Would this be necessary when the same operations are taking place for the transfer of money of one subhead to another?

—In the case of A, there was a decision by the Department of Finance to impose on this Vote, because there were savings in it, a charge that would otherwise fall on an Additional Estimate for global increases in pay in the public service. There was no request from the Department of Labour to do this.

442. Chairman.—In other words, the actual savings and counter expense were in the one subhead. This is the point. Did they need financial sanction? It is very important that the Committee understand this question. There was a saving on subhead A due to vacancies not being filled, there was an excess, but still on subhead A, due to increases in the cost of salaries and wages, so that subhead A was balanced within itself, am I right in that?

—That is the position.

Would that explain Deputy Gibbons’ point why there is not a special Finance sanction? There is a balance within the subhead?

—As far as the Department of Labour are concerned it was not necessary for the Department to seek any sanction.

Mr. Jacob.—Normally it would be included under Vote 50—Remuneration—which provides for increases in remuneration. In 1972-73 there were only four Votes concerned which obtained money under that Vote. If the savings the Accounting Officer has referred to did not take place he would have to have recourse to the Remuneration Vote.

—That is so. Had we used up our Vote to the full then the Minister for Finance, who has responsibility for overall pay, would presumably have had to include provision for the pay increases for our staff in his separate Estimate for increases in remuneration.

443. Deputy H. Gibbons.—I take it that this authorisation from the Department of Finance does not have to be documented unless you initiate the application for permission to change from one subhead to another?

—This would be our practice.

Mr. Jacob.—That would be the position.

444. Chairman.—I want to be clear in my own mind on this. Am I right in thinking that within the subhead, savings and excesses can be balanced within the Department itself, subject to the scrutiny of Finance and do not require any formal procedures?

—Within the subhead, yes.

445. A transfer to another subhead will require formal Finance authorisation. Is that correct and must it be a supplementary despite the existence of savings?

—It could be either, or it could be a combination of both. There could be a situation where for policy reasons, even though the amount of the savings would be sufficient to cover the additional money required, it might be regarded as necessary to move a token supplementary Estimate in the Dáil to get coverage from the Dáil if a new service or an important extension of an existing service was involved.

446. Deputy Tunney.—Are the Department of Finance the last sanctioning authority for the appointment of all civil servants, now the Department of the Public Service?

—Yes.

447. Could the situation arise where they, in anticipation of deficits in respect of salary, could delay the appointment of certain officers with a view to the saving to which you refer here?

—Normally the cadre of the Department is approved. Then the procedure operates. A competition is arranged through the Civil Service Commission and those who are successful go through the normal clearance procedures. It would be unusual and abnormal for anybody to interfere consciously with that operation for the reason the Deputy suggests.

448. Chairman.—On subhead P—Losses—is there a large number of offices involved in this? I take it there was no substantial sum in any particular office.

—There was one item which arose from fraud and which resulted in the dismissal of the branch manager of an employment office. This service is now transferred to Social Welfare.

Was the fraud substantial?

—£131.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 34—LANDS.

Mr. T. O’Brien called and examined.

449. Chairman.—On subhead A—Salaries, Wages and Allowances—there is a note— saving due to non-filling of vacancies.

—We had about 77 vacancies out of a total staff of 960, throughout the year. They were mainly in the junior clerical grades.

450. Deputy Toal.—Does this include people in local offices?

—Yes.

Do you not agree that local offices are grossly understaffed at the present time? Do you have problems recruiting staff?

—No. Recruitment was held up for some years but in the middle of last year we began recruiting again and have already taken on 14 new inspectors.

Is this an ongoing process?

—Yes. Serving numbers are going up on the inspectorate side. The vacancies which arose were mainly in the junior clerical and typing grades. I do not think there were many vacancies on the outdoor inspectorate staff.

451. Deputy Griffin.—It has come to our notice that a substantial number of vacancies are not being filled in all Departments. With the high number of unemployed and the availability of boys and girls with honours Leaving Certificates and graduates, could we be assured that all of these vacancies will be filled as quickly as possible?

—Yes, I could say that. People retire or resign and sometimes girls leave to get married, although they need not leave the service now. Others, particularly on the female side, leave to take up other occupations, such as teaching or nursing. They stay in the service maybe six months and then decide they do not like it or prefer something else.

452. Chairman.—The Department of the Public Service told us that there has been a considerable improvement from 1972-73. Would that be reflected in your Department?

—Yes. Two years ago I told the Committee that the number of vacancies we had was 120 and it is now little more than half that.

453. Deputy Toal—Are you satisfied with the legal branch?

—We have had some difficulty in the recruitment of solicitors but I believe that problem is common to the whole Civil Service. At the moment we are arranging for an extra solicitor by way of direct advertisement instead of through the Civil Service Commission. This will be regularised later by the Commission.

454. Chairman.—On subhead B.2, this deals with Post Office Services and I am surprised it is not described as subhead C. Is there any particular reason?

—There is a slight difference with other Votes. The only reason is that we have a subhead I for improvements. It has been that way for 50 years and we did not like to change the traditional lettering.

The Department do not like to move.

—I think that is the only reason.

455. It is a good one. We have discussed Post Office services sufficiently. The procedure is the same in your case as in others.

—Yes. It used to be regarded as part of the allied services. Now the charges are put into the Vote proper, I suppose, on the understanding that the Department of Posts and Telegraphs render a service and they should be seen to be paid for it. If it was not included in the various Departmental Estimates it would be in the nature of a subsidy concealed in their Votes.

456. We would probably have asked your opinion of this if it had come before the Vote for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. We asked a number of Accounting Officers but when the Accounting Officer for Posts and Telegraphs was here last, having already inquired from a number of other Accounting Officers before, the explanation was such that the Committee are satisfied that the new arrangement is a big improvement. There is no case for preferring the old one. That is not so to speak a formal declaration of decision. But we were satisfied with the explanation.

—That would be my own view.

457. On subhead C—Legal Expenses—there is a note which states that excesses are due to increases in the number and cost of cases heard by Appeal Tribunal and by the Lay Commissioners.

—These fees represent the fees for counsel plus costs awarded by the Land Commission and the Appeal Tribunal at hearings before them, that is the hearing of owners’ objections either on price or on acquisition proper. The price appeals, for example, increased from 43 in 1971-72 to 106 the next year. Owners’ objections increased from 307 to 344. The inference is that with land advancing in value owners’ resistance to acquisition and price became more pronounced.

458. In how many cases would the other party succeed against the Land Commission and obtain costs? For instance in this year you say this includes costs as well as counsel’s fees. Have you got the figure for costs as against fees?

—For appeals against price and resumption the expenditure was £3,402 for Land Commission counsel.

So £3,402 was paid in fees, roughly, and the rest is for costs?

—Yes.

That would be in the Appeal Tribunal?

—Yes. That would be on price and resumption. On objections proper, the expenditure was £6,397.

Still costs?

—Still costs. Objection costs.

459. How much would the total amount of costs be?

—The amount awarded by the Appeal Tribunal in terms of costs on price appeals was £14,339.

That would be by the High Court judge on the appeal?

—Yes. And the amount awarded by the Lay Commissioners was £6,397.

So this is practically all costs then?

—It is nearly all costs.

The counsel’s fees paid by the commission would not be included?

—Yes, the first figure here—£3,402—was counsel’s fees.

460. Deputy Toal.—In what percentage of cases could you say the objectors succeed?

—In the case of objections coming before the Lay Commissioners Court it probably works out about 50-50 but that is only a rough estimate.

461. What percentage of these cases are adjourned for a year or two years to see how the objector will conduct himself?

—That would be a fairly common happening particularly in western areas where the owners are absent either in England or America, where they have gone to build up some additional money. They are absent for three or four years. The lands are let in the meantime and the Land Commission, advised of the position, may move for acquisition. On service of the statutory notice, the owner or tenant objects and returns from abroad saying that he hopes to come back again to the land in about two years’ time. He asks for a year or two years’ adjournment. The Lay Commissioners almost invariably allow that adjournment. If he honours his undertaking to return he may frequently win his case. The percentage of cases in which that would happen would be pretty high in the west but I would find it rather difficult to put a figure on it.

462. Would you not agree that almost 90 per cent of the cases before the High Court Judge relating to the price of land would succeed against the Land Commission? By that I mean the Land Commission put a figure on it and invariably the person who objects gets an increase on the figure named by the Land Commission?

—With the way land prices have been escalating in recent years that is not surprising. If we fix a price, the interval between the Land Commission fixing that price and the time it comes before the Appeal Tribunal could be as much as a year. Land prices will have escalated in the meantime. The Land Commission will not necessarily give evidence on the basis of their published price. They may revise it and when the inspector gives evidence he will cite the revised price. The owner would have an auctioneer and valuer of his own who will maximise the price. The judge will generally fix it between the two. What is at issue is the assessment of market value at the material time. I take your point that in 90 per cent of the cases the judge increases the published price. There have been some cases in the recent past where he has affirmed the Land Commission price and in one case where he in fact reduced it.

463. I think a lot of these cases unnecessarily get to the stage of a High Court hearing. Could the Land Commission not do something to negotiate these hearings instead of protracting the proceedings and causing great delay?

—We do negotiate up to what we regard as the market value. If we fail to reach agreement the statutory provision is that in default of agreement the price will be fixed by the tribunal.

464. The Land Commission serve an acquisition order and it is not assented to and goes before the Lay Commissioners and then to the High Court. How much time will these proceedings take from beginning to end?

—They could take two to three years. Much of the blame for this delay is wrongly attributed to the Land Commission. It could be the fault of the owner or his solicitor. If he objects, we will list his objection for a hearing. He may ask for an adjournment until the next year or two. Therefore, not all delays are attributable to the Land Commission.

465. You say approximately two or three years, but do you not agree that some of these cases go on for as long as five years?

—I do.

And perhaps even longer?

—Yes. Again it is a question of culpability. Where does the culpability lie? In many cases it will lie with the owner himself. Compulsory acquisition moves along the line of most resistance.

466. The reason I asked you earlier about the legal branch was that I feel a solicitor could expedite matters very much. For that reason I would like to see more of them employed. There is a great deal of work to be done with regard to titles and so forth.

—We appreciate that. For example in the Examiner’s Branch where most of the funds are allocated, sometimes they are waiting for work. They are up-to-date there. The Land Commission cannot move unless the title is lodged.

467. Deputy Crotty.—How is the price of land arrived at by the Land Commission?

—It is valued by an inspector. These inspectors are nearly all graduates with a Bachelor of Agricultural Science degree. They have a familiarity with land and watch land prices realised at auctions. They know the prices got for farms in their own areas and have a very good general idea of the going price for land of differing quality.

Chairman.—It is market value that is essential?

—Yes.

468. Deputy Crotty.—Often farms are put up for sale and a stop order is put on the sale, subject to the Land Commission’s consent. Do you accept the price the land might fetch at that auction, subject to the Land Commission’s consent, is the price for the land?

—No, not necessarily. The Judicial Commissioner who is a High Court Judge has held that we are not bound by it. It may be a puffed price.

469. Deputy H. Gibbons.—When the sale of the land if frozen, and an owner puts it up for sale, he may be charged something for leaving it up for auction. He might put it up for auction when the freeze order is put on it.

—Sometimes they do. We are not bound by any price realised at that auction.

You do not regard that as the market value?

—No. It could be a spurious price to mislead us. The Tribunal is not disposed to accept such evidence as representing market value.

470. Deputy Tunney.—Would the owner have any indication from you beforehand that a section 40 notice was going to be served? Are all owners selling now thinking that the Land Commission are looking over their shoulders? Because of that are they inclined to put exaggerated prices on their farms? If not, is it not taken, as far as a vendor is concerned when he goes to the court, as good evidence on his part if he can shown that at a public auction £X per acre was offered for his land?

—If this auction had been held before the issue of the section 40 notice, then that might be accepted as a valid price. But when the sale is attempted in spite of the section 40 notice the price fetched there ought not to be validly entertainable.

471. You said that in approximately 90 per cent of the cases, there was an increase in the price which the Land Commission ultimately pays against what they originally offered. Have you learned any lesson from that or do you still adhere solely to the traditional system?

—The Land Commission will go on what they conscientiously believe to be the market value and if the parties cannot agree on that the only thing to do is to let the owner appeal and the statutory mechanism is already there for that.

472. Deputy H. Gibbons.—If a genuine sale is taking place is the section 40 notice operative?

—That is a legal question. If the sale has been contracted for but not closed the purchaser would certainly have an equitable interest in it. He would be entitled to object to the proceedings. He would get an opportunity to object where the land is sold before the issue of the section 40 notice.

Deputy Tunney.—Privately?

—Yes, the same principle applies.

473. Deputy H. Gibbons.—Have any decisions been reached in the court about this? Has anybody contested this?

—Not that I am aware of.

474. If all the legal documents are absolutely complete and the deeds are handed over to the buyer there is no place then for the section 40 notice? It cannot come in at that stage?

—It could, Why not? The fact that land is sold does not repeal this.

475. I understand that the primary effect of the section 40 notice is to indicate that the buyer buys this land subject to the Land Commission investigating it and agreeing to it. Is this the effect of the section 40 notice?

—The effect of the section 40 notice is that any sale for the effective duration without the consent in writing of the Land Commission shall be null and void.

476. Does it follow that when a sale is completed you can serve the section 40 notice which in effect says that that sale was null and void?

—No, we can serve it on the new owner and proceed against him.

But he may have bought the land and may not be interested in reselling it. He has completed the buying of the land. If John Murphy bought land from Michael Kenny and if you had been aware of it in time, you could have acquired the land from Michael Kenny. By the time you were informed you find that all documents have been completed and that Murphy is complete owner and has no intention of selling it.

—We will investigate that. If the purchaser is resident on the land and working it as an ordinary working farmer, we would probably withdraw from it altogether.

477. Chairman.—I am not clear. If the effect of the section 40 notice is to say: “We are interested at this stage”, and Mr. Murphy does not intend to sell it; he has been accepted as the owner; he has paid for his farm; he has got all the deeds and goes to work and will not sell his land, I suggest that section 40 cannot be operative at all, because it refers to the sale of the land by the owner who, at this point, is Mr. Murphy.

—The owner?

The new owner.

—We may acquire land from anybody within the statutory limitations.

Yes. Then it is section 40 you have used.

—Yes. We would serve a section 40 notice on the new owner.

Even if he does not intend to sell it?

—Yes; having ascertained the full facts and the circumstances we might or might not move.

478. Deputy Toal.—From what I can gather, the policy of the Land Commission is to serve acquisition orders when land is being transferred or when people are getting rid of land. In a lot of cases where an owner puts up land for sale, about one day before the sale takes place, the Land Commission step in to the frustration of everybody.

—We usually try to give at least a week’s notice. If an auction is taking place on 27th March we will not serve a section 40 notice later than 20th March. They will have at least a week’s notice.

479. Chairman.—There is a good deal of delay sometimes. Suppose you serve a notice on the person who owns the land, but as he wants to sell his interests anyway, ultimately you are not going to confiscate it, you are going to pay him the market value at the time of acquisition.

—Exactly.

Is that person not entitled to dispose of his interests to another party?

—No.

And you would be dealing with the other party?

—Not if the section 40 notice is served.

480. Why can he not dispose of his interests and you move against the person who is there? After all, it is grossly unfair to hold up a person realising his asset.

—At that point we would know who the vendor is but we would not know who the purchaser would be; it might be a merchant or a shopkeeper. The fact that the vendor is selling is an indication that he does not want the land himself. Therefore, it is proper enough to move against him in the knowledge that what he wants is money. We think of ourselves as good buyers.

481. If you do it at once. If I own land and I want to sell it and you serve a section 40 notice on me, I still have an interest in this land. I do not see why, if you are going to pay market value at the time of your acquisition, I cannot validly transfer my interest to, say, Deputy Tunney. If you serve your acquisition notice on Deputy Tunney and acquire, at the proper time, from Deputy Tunney, Deputy Tunney has paid me a certain sum for that. It will not be necessarily, with the inflationary situation, related to the sum you would be paying later. Why can I not do that?

—The vendor has no defence because he is selling. A purchaser might have a very good defence and we might not be able to get the land at all. The law, as given down to us by Dáil Éireann in section 35 of the Land Act, 1965 is that an offer of land for sale is one of the reasons now, and since then, why the Land Commission may move for acquisition of that land.

In practice, does this mean that with the delays involved, a person who wants to dispose of his asset could not do so? I visualise a different situation.

—He cannot dispose of it without the consent of the Land Commission.

482. Deputy H. Gibbons.—In practice at the auction the auctioneer must announce that section 40 has been served by the Land Commission and the person who is then buying will not pay finally for the property until he is assured that the Land Commission have lost interest in it.

—That is right.

Chairman.—We are getting into policy.

483. Deputy H. Gibbons.—Are you expeditious or are you delaying it?

—We are as expeditious in the conclusion of cases as the owner is. If there is delay from time to time some of it may be due to the Land Commission and some of it may be due to the owner. On the whole it is up to the owner. If the owner is fast and prompt we will be fast and prompt.

Deputy Toal.—Sorry for getting into the realm of policy. In regard to what we were discussing and the Land Commission stepping in when sales are taking place, I think it is a good policy. It is better than going in against a man who has been working his land, perhaps not too productively for many years, and who still continues to reside on the lands. The Land Commission have every right to move in.

Chairman.—You are quite right. It is policy. That is why I tried to direct it back to the question of whether their administration was expeditious or not.

484. Deputy Crotty.—Getting back to costs of appeal, I was not too clear on who pays.

—The Land Commission pay all the costs awarded.

Of all appeals?

—There is not a complete indemnity of all costs of a particular appeal. When a case comes up and an owner employs a solicitor to conduct his case, the Court would award measured costs depending on the extent and level of the case.

485. Should people who purchase land at an auction, knowing the Land Commission had a stay on it, and who appeal against the Land Commission taking it over, be entitled to their costs?

—When they appeal on acquisition or on price, they get measured costs.

486. At an auction where there is a stay on the land, those people should be required to pay their own costs. They have bought the land knowing—

—I missed the point there.

A person goes to an auction and buys a parcel of land—

—And that purchase is not subsequently sanctioned?

Yes.

—He is liable for his own costs.

487. Deputy H. Gibbons.—On subhead E— Deficiencies from Sales of Land Bonds allocated to Government Departments—under what circumstances would they occur?

—Bonds allocated to the Revenue Commissioners in satisfaction of estate duty or income tax, if sold below par, have to get the deficiency made good from this subhead. In effect, what this means is that the Revenue Commissioners have to get their full pound of flesh.

Deputy Crotty.—And rightly so.

Deputy H. Gibbons.—This does not apply to other bond holders?

—No.

488. Deputy Crotty.—On subhead F—Deficiency of Income from Untenanted Land— could we have an explanation on this?

—Yes. There was £60,000 provided and none spent. The reason was that receipts to the account for untenanted land were £718,000. That was mainly from lettings through auctioneers and stock managers. Outgoings were £600,000, mainly rates, herds’ wages and the servicing of bonds. That left a surplus of £118,000. We also had receipts from investments, bringing a total profit for that year to £132,000. This appears as an Appropriation in Aid in item 3 of subhead L of the Vote. That year we had approximately 62,000 acres of arable land on hands and the letting price escalated in anticipation of EEC entrance so we had a profit.

You make a profit every year?

—We had a loss the year before.

489. Deputy Toal.—On subhead G—Purchase of Interests for Cash, Advances for Purchase of Land and Auctioneers’ Commission—what percentage do the Land Commission pay in cash for lands?

—In that year we spent nearly £2 million in land bonds and £200,000 in cash.

490. What are the circumstances which justify you paying cash for land?

—The general idea would be that we would like to pick up fairly small cases in the £4,000 to £5,000 bracket for cash.

491. Many Deputies make representations to the Land Commission for people who have been proceeded against by the Land Commission to have them compensated in cash.

Are they just wasting their time?

—In many cases they are as we had only £200,000 cash voted.

Chairman.—What is your administrative policy on this?

—We try to get special small properties quickly, and not consume much time on issues in respect of 20 or 25 acre properties for £5,000 or £6,000.

492. Deputy Tunney.—Is any concession given to the vendor who comes quietly as against the vendor who resists?

—Not particularly.

If somebody comes to you with land, rather than your having to go through all the ramifications of inquiry, is he shown different consideration from the rest?

—It could happen that way from time to time. Because of the variety of transactions that occur, it is difficult to isolate all that might happen. Sometimes there is a very genuine case where a person sells his land and wishes to buy more land quickly. We try to accommodate him in cash if resources permit. Sometimes a person sells us land and wants the cash immediately to buy a house. There was a case recently of two old ladies who sold us some land. They were in very bad health, had been in hospital and had hospital and medical bills to pay. Their personal circumstances suggested that we ought to pay in cash. We dealt with the case quickly, particularly as it was voluntary. Occasionally, we buy the odd case at auction. To try to comprehend in a single statement the variety of personal issues that would arise in which we might pay cash would be very hard.

Chairman.—This is one of these discretionary areas which is troublesome?

—Yes.

493. On subhead H—Gratuities to ex-Employees—how many are involved?

—£11,792 was paid last year to 26 ex-employees, which is an average of £453 each.

494. Deputy Toal.—On item 1 of the Appropriations in Aid, could you explain the purpose and the workings of the Church Temporalities Fund?

—There is a capital sum of £2½ million in the Church Account. This is invested and yields a dividend of £142,000. This year there was a rental of £2,000 and miscellaneous items were another £2,000 which give a total income of £146,000. Outgoings were as follows: the Department of Education £30,000; the Department of Finance, £26,598—as contribution to the national teachers’ pension fund—the Department of Agriculture, £10,000; the National University, £10,000; and a variety of other items. There still remains £56,000 which surplus was appropriated to our Vote. The general question in relation to the Church Temporalities Fund would amount to this. The agitation against the payment of tithes in Ireland did not result from any feeling that the tithes were a penal imposition but because at the time of the agitation they were payable to the minority church. The tithe rent war was regarded as a success not because it resulted in the abolition of tithes, which it did not, but because as a consequence of it the Protestant Church in Ireland was disestablished in 1869. Tithes which were collected after this disestablishment were no longer paid for its upkeep but were devoted to various national purposes of the kind I quoted—universities, the Department of Education and the Department of Agriculture. There is a separate account published which is audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General. We are carrying out a campaign for the redemption of the outstanding rents. Where there was perhaps £10,000 four or five years ago they are now down to an annual collection of about £1,000. We offered them very generous terms of redemption about five years ago. They are now nearly all finished.

VOTE 35—FORESTRY.

Mr. T. O’Brien further examined.

495. Chairman.—Paragraph 52 of the Comptroller and Auditor General’s report reads:

“Subhead C.2.—Forest Development and Management

Reference was made in paragraph 62 of the report for 1971-72 to improvement works, including the provision of tourist amenities, at Lough Key Forest Park, Boyle, Co. Roscommon. The final cost of development was estimated in March 1972 at about £425,000 to be apportioned between Bord Fáilte Éireann and the Forestry vote on a 70:30 basis. Bord Fáilte Éireann has contributed £298,000 in discharge of its liability. Expenditure on the project to 31 March 1973 amounted to £294,250 of which the vote has borne £96,700, including £23,850 charged in the year under review.”

Mr. Jacob.—This is an informative paragraph relating to improvement works being carried out at Lough Key Forest Park.

—The information we have is that the park is being well received by the public. Press comment has been consistently favourable. It is regarded as an oasis and is widely acknowleged as a superior amenity.

496. Deputy H. Gibbons.—On subhead C.2.—Forest Development and Management— how do you face the problem of the Disadvantaged Areas Scheme? Will it affect your chances of getting lands?

—The quick answer is “yes”. It will for the time being anyway, with the price agricultural commodities are able to command. We are encountering some difficulties now but that particular year we were able to acquire 36,000 acres, mainly marginal land.

497. In the marginal land, we often get people looking for land that has been acquired by Forestry. Forestry are very reluctant to release this land and the people who want to acquire it feel that it is good land and they could make good use of it.

—We have a number of these cases. The Deputy is right in saying that we turn down almost all of them but we yield now and again. Sometimes it is possible to arrange an exchange. Forestry is a good source of employment and we need the land if we are to maintain employment.

498. Deputy Toal.—Has the price increased as much on marginal land as it has on agricultural land?

—It has for the better quality, but some of the poorer marginal land would be pretty valueless. For example, that year we took 36,000 acres of land but only 27,000 acres were productive. The unproductive area would include water, tops of mountains and other unplantable spots.

499. Deputy Griffin.—What acreage have the Land Commission acquired for forestry and not yet planted?

—The Department has 825,000 acres; of that, 725,000 acres are plantable and, of that, 630,000 acres have in fact been planted at 232 different forest centres throughout the country.

500. Chairman.—There is a separate sawmilling account.

—There is a separate sawmilling account for both Cong and Dundrum. The employment at Cong is 22 and at Dundrum 24. Last year when there was a loss I told the Committee that there would be a profit this particular year, 1972-73; there has been a profit of £6,548 at Cong and £1,388 at Dundrum, making a total profit for the two sawmills of £7,936.

501. Deputy Griffin.—On Dundrum, there are new saws being installed. How will that affect the situation?

—Cong is a modern sawmill, Dundrum is not; in terms of saws and sawbenches I think a new installation is being done.

The work is going on to your satisfaction?

—Yes.

Deputy Crotty.—There are only two sawmills?

—Yes. I do not think it would be politic to have any more. The timber merchants would probably not like any further State participation.

What happens the timber in other areas?

—It is sold. The Appropriations in Aid show £76,928 in receipts from sawmills, and general sales of timber represent £1,231,640.

502. Deputy Tunney.—On subhead D— Grants for Afforestation Purposes—was it because the grants were not attractive enough that this was not fully utilised?

—No. These are private planting grants. These grants have not been fully availed of and despite all the publicity and a free advisory service, the scheme does not appear to have taken on very much. That year there were 750 acres planted privately. The grant is attractive enough—£35 per acre payable as to £20 on the laying down of the plantation and £15 after seven years’ satisfactory maintenance. In the 40 years in which the private planting programme has been going on there have not been more than 25,000 acres planted altogether, whereas the Department plants 25,000 acres per annum.

If the grant were more attractive, might it attract more people?

—We have stepped it up two or three times in the past.

503. Deputy Griffin.—On subhead E— Forestry Education—are applicants not coming forward? I know from my own experience that this scheme is quite popular around Tipperary. Can you account for this shortfall in expenditure?

—In the period 1955-1970 there was a big drive in forestry expansion and we felt we were pretty well down in terms of foresters. We had an extensive recruitment campaign and took in 30 trainees per year. In any given year during that time we had as many as 90 people in training. Training consisted of one year practical work at Kinnitty Castle followed by two years theory at the old Shelton Abbey. Over that period we built up a large staff of foresters. We now find that we have a more than adequate number. To make good wastage we now recruit, say 12 trainees where at one time we took in 30 per year. We have a total staff of 500 foresters.

504. The upper age limit for trainee foresters was 19 years. Boys who attended an agricultural college were debarred on age grounds, whereas otherwise they were admirably suited for this work. It would be good policy if the upper age limit could be increased to 20 years.

—I will take special note of the Deputy’s comment on this and have it examined.

505. Chairman.—On subhead H—Conservation (Grant-in-Aid)—how are your activities in County Wicklow, in the Arklow area to the north of the Nitrigin Éireann factory, affected by the atmospheric pollution from that factory?

—They were badly affected at one period.

What is the position now? Is there inspection? On casual observation, on going through the area, considerable damage has been done to trees over a wide area, particularly to the north. Can you tell us what is the actual position?

—Part of the forest at Shelton Abbey was badly damaged when the Nítrigin Éireann factory commenced operations. I should like to inform the Committee that we no longer own Shelton Abbey. It was handed over to the Department of Justice as an open detention centre for prisoners in 1972. Damage sustained in the early years of the operation of the Nítrigin Éireann plant seems to have been associated with the starting up of the manufacturing process. These interruptions coupled with adverse climatic conditions were the cause of the damage. More recently, improvements in the plant have largely eliminated interruptions of the process. There is now better technical control and there has been no extension of damage.

506. What area in the vicinity of the factory has been affected?

—Within one-quarter to two-thirds of a mile.

Would you restrict it to a quarter of a mile?

Would you say there is no damage to trees in a northerly direction for more than a quarter of a mile?

—There would be some, but not very extensive.

Any damage to the west?

—There has been some there.

What about damage to the north-east?

—There has been rather more in that direction.

507. Was the establishing of the factory there contributory to the evacuation of Shelton Abbey?

—We did not regret going.

Because of the factory?

—All right. Some monitoring of the gases which issue from the plant was carried out by the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards and the results were made freely available to our own staff. There is a regular check carried out now. This monitoring arose because of the Chairman’s queries about two years ago.

It is really a matter of technical control.

508. Deputy Crotty.—Does subhead H apply to conservation of forests or is it to conservation in general?

—The whole idea is to finance conservation projects carried out by our own Department or sponsored by any other Department. The main projects that year were research, mainly on grouse and mallard.

509. Deputy Crotty.—There is damage done to trees from a factory in the Dungarvan area. Does this relate to your Department?

—No.

510. Deputy Griffin.—In Dundrum, deer live in forests and farmers in the neighbourhood are plagued by deer prowling early in the mornings and devouring their young corn and early grass. Who has responsibility for these deer? Has your Department?

—Are they wild deer?

Yes.

—We will be protecting them under the new Wildlife Bill. In Killarney and places like that, red deer are regarded as very important. In subhead H, which we are now talking about, there was some expenditure for the development of Portumna Forest as a wildlife park with deer as a major species. These deer will be in an enclosed controlled area.

Chairman.—To preserve the red deer from the other deer that would come in—the Japanese deer?

—The species at Portumna is fallow deer.

511. Deputy Tunney.—In the Notes, an amount of £323 is mentioned for deficiencies of tools for forest centres. Do they come to notice at stocktaking?

—Yes. They were all small individual items like axes, spades and hammers.

Deputy Toal.—I should like to compliment the Accounting Officer. It was a very interesting Estimate.

Chairman.—We will all join in that.

The witness withdrew.

The Committee adjourned.