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MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA(Minutes of Evidence)Déardaoin, 4 Nollaig, 1975.Thursday, 4th December, 1975.The Committee met at 11 a.m.
DEPUTY de VALERA in the chair. Mr. S. Mac Gearailt (An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste) called and examined.VOTE 33—NATIONAL GALLERY.Dr. J. White called and examined.127. Chairman.—There is no comment from the Comptroller and Auditor General. On subhead C—Post Office Services—the volume of post was not as great as was expected. Have you been economising? —I am not quite certain how something like this operates. It is very difficult to estimate what you are going to spend on postage and what subsequently occurs. It is one of the hardest questions to answer honestly, because in order to discover at the end of the year what volume of postage you have used, you have to try to make a right estimate. As everybody, I think, appreciates, a correct estimate is a very difficult thing to come up with. Postal charges have been changing rather rapidly, have they not? —That has something to do with it. Perhaps an anticipated increase did not come into operation. 128. On subhead D—Purchase and Repair of Pictures (Grant-in-Aid)—I suppose that is one of the essential things in your Estimate. I would imagine you do not get a great deal for that sum nowadays. —We do not. As you know, we are fortunate in the sense that we also have some bequests, the Shaw and Lane funds, which help us to purchase. The Government bear this in mind when they keep the grant so low. 129. Deputy Moore.—If you did not have these outside bequests, would you be in a very bad way? —If we did not have these outside bequests, the Gallery would never have been heard of practically, because we could not have made acquisitions over the years and instead of having a great collection, as we have, we would have a very minor collection. But, due to the good fortune of having some bequests, our collection has been built up into a very large one. 130. Is the Shaw Trust in perpetuity? —No, it is based on royalties which, according to the law of copyright, run out fifty years after death. It has another 25 years to go. Then it will dry up as far as income from the sale of books, plays, and so on, is concerned. 131. Chairman.—We have very little relevant to our business today but I am sure we could learn a lot if we were to go beyond our terms of reference. Is there anything you want to say? —Every year we issue a report and we express our thanks to the Dáil and to the administration of the Government for all the help we get. Perhaps it is not always recognised that we do this. As I am here, may I say to you all that we deeply appreciate the support and sympathy we get from public representatives. The Gallery is something we are all proud of. The witness withdrew. VOTE 4—CENTRAL STATISTICS OFFICE.Mr. T. P. Linehan called and examined.132. Chairman.—On subhead A—Salaries, Wages and Allowances—there is a considerable saving. The note says that the saving was due to unfilled vacancies, to new assignments at lower points on salary scales, a delay in the employment of key punch operators to process the Household Budget Inquiry and to a reduction in overtime. Does that mean there has been a reduction in an activity in this office? —No. The delay in filling vacancies is a normal situation which arises with a very large volume of clerical staff, of the order of 300 to 400. There is a very rapid turnover in clerical staff nowadays. It takes a while to fill these vacancies. In making the original estimates we put in the full amount for each of the posts sanctioned. This has not affected the available activity. The Household Budget delay was merely the timing of the inflow of information from the field. If we employed them as we had originally intended, we would not have had the work for them. 133. Is a population census the duty of your office? —Yes. And there is not going to be one? —There is not going to be a 1976 census. 134. Did you know that at the time of this estimate? —This estimate is for 1973-74 and the census would not have affected it in any way. You would not have been getting extra staff for it? —No, not at that point. And your estimate for salaries and wages would not have contained any element of preparation for the census? —No. The one covering the calendar year 1975 would have a small amount for the census, but the year 1973-74 would not have had anything for it. 135. Deputy H. Gibbons.—Did you say you had a very big turnover in clerical staff? —A fairly large turnover. Does this mean that you had to go to the Civil Service Commissioners each time you wanted to fill vacancies? —For the normal supply, yes. 136. Could this be got over by having a pool of candidates from which you could draw in such a situation? If you want to fill ten vacancies, the Civil Service Commissioners would interview about 30 people and set up a pool for 12 months or two years? Would this be of any help? —As I understand the position regarding the clerical assistant or the clerical officer grades, the competition under which applicants are interviewed involves the keeping of a list for a certain time and drawing from the list as people are required. It does not mean that a new competition must be held each time we require staff. The present system of recruitment in the civil service involves the keeping of waiting lists until the next competition is held. I am not sure of the precise date when one finishes and the other starts. You are covered by general recruitment? —Yes. The statistician grade is the only one which has direct recruitment for which a competition is specially held. 137. Chairman.—On subhead C—Post Office Services—we notice again this morning that this is less than granted but it is fairly closely estimated. Have you been economising on postal services? —Not a specific campaign for economy. The closeness is due to the fact that the variation on expenditure is rather small from year to year and we were able to get fairly close to it. If there are increased rates of charge for telephone etc. what we have projected forward a year may be too low. On this particular occasion, we are the opposite way round. 138. On subhead D—Collection of Statistics—what would have been your main activity in the year under review? —The two main activities covered in that heading were the regular collection of agricultural statistics and the fieldwork for the Household Budget Inquiry. Particularly in the Household Budget Inquiry, we had a special team of field surveyors employed for the purpose of collecting the information and they were included under Collection of Statistics. The agricultural enumeration is the largest constituent of that. 139. Deputy MacSharry.—Are these permanent staff or fee-per-item staff? —Fee-per-item. The Household Budget surveyors were full-time temporary; they are now permanent. The agricultural enumeration staff is on a fee-per-job basis because it lasts only for a short time. 140. Deputy H. Gibbons.—How satisfied are you with the accuracy of the agricultural statistics? —Taken in aggregate, we are quite satisfied that they stand up to the tests. One counts a stock figure in the June enumeration, the number of livestock for example, and one subsequently has a different source of information for the disposal of those. We have the exports and the home slaughterings and, taking one year with the next, the disposals square up satisfactorily with the two stock figures. We are happy with the overall level. 141. Taking the use of lands and corn crops, do you check on any of those? —We do not go into the field and physically measure any of them. We check the estimated production of a crop, e.g. wheat, as against the subsequent disposal of that which flows into the acquirers of the grain. 142. What I have in mind is that there is criticism of this in the country. There is an allegation that the enumerator goes into one house and takes it as the whole townland. Is a check made to see how accurate his figures are? —There is a check in relation to individual units of enumeration; district electoral divisions are checked against each other from year to year and the returns for the individual holdings within those are checked to ensure that the variation from year to year is reasonable. There is no spot check of an enumerator? —Occasionally head office staff go with the enumerator and check what has been done, but it is very limited. 143. In the Dáil yesterday a question was asked on the number of cow herds and there seemed to be a conflict between the information the Minister had and that which Deputy J. Gibbons had from your Office. —I am not familiar with the exchange. Would you have a look at it and give us a note on it or deal with it next year? —I would like to help in any way I can. How relevant is it to our accounts? I am conscious of the fact that we will not be dealing with this for about 12 months. —The situation about which I am quite clear is that from our office we have the results of the enumeration of the total cow herd at a particular time, say, June. Then there is regular information on disposal of cattle, including cows, at slaughter factories with a subdivision of the figures by type of animal. I presume it is a combination of those two sets of figures which caused some confusion. 144. Particularly with EEC figures—this probably is not your area—when this conflict arises, there should be some way by which the figures can be reconciled and where the difficulties can be pointed out. I thought your office was the only one that could do this. The figure the Minister gave was something like 9 per cent and the figure Deputy J. Gibbons gave was 25 per cent. Deputy MacSharry.—4.9 per cent and 25 per cent. Deputy H. Gibbons.—The conflict now is whether to put it on record that both I and Deputy Callanan have on occasions criticised the information coming from the EEC on the basis that it must be inaccurate. —I am uncertain as to what the figure relates to. Deputy MacSharry.—The drop in the cow herd this year. —The latest CSO agricultural enumeration figures would have related to June, 1975 whereas the data collected on disposals and slaughterings would have brought those estimates up to a much later date. That may be the cause of the discrepancy, I do not know. 145. Deputy H. Gibbons.—My difficulty is, where do we go to get the correct information on such a matter, within a reasonable time? We can wait until the review is published but—— —If we can help in any way we will be most anxious to do so. That is why I asked if it would be in order to have a note on it. 146. Chairman.—What we are really querying is the efficiency of the Department. We have to see what we are comparing it with. If the Office can furnish the information it should be available, but they can hardly furnish information for which they are not responsible. Deputy MacSharry.—We could ask the question in another way and then it would be relevant, that is, how the enumerators expend the money allocated to them? Chairman.—I was going to come back to this in another way. What information does Deputy Gibbons wish to have? Deputy H. Gibbons.—It was stated in the Dáil—I think the figures were 4.9 per cent and 25 per cent. There is obviously a big difference between those figures. Where does the conflict between the figures arise? Chairman.—I think all we can do here is to ask for the figures for that particular matter from the Central Statistics Office. They cannot answer for anything which is not contained in their figures; get their figures and they will be committed to them. Deputy H. Gibbons.—But this does not get at the point I am making. The Central Statistics Office is responsible for its own statistics; the EEC are responsible for their statistics. I suggest that the overall position is that we are depending on the Central Statistics Office and in a case of conflict how do we try and rectify the position and get information from them? This may be a recurring problem between EEC figures and State figures. It might be no harm to discuss this matter some time in the future. Perhaps it would be more appropriately discussed under the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries accounts, but we would probably still get the answer that those are the figures available. Chairman.—The difficulty I see here is that the Accounting Officer is responsible for the Central Statistics Office, which is responsible for furnishing its statistics. We have an interest in the accuracy and completeness of the statistics, for instance, a question of efficiency and value for money. To that extent we are entitled to ask for any particular statistics we require, but is it any part of your responsibility to correlate your statistics with EEC statistics? —Not in the formal sense, but if I know the particular figures in question I could speak more authoritatively on them. Are these EEC figures relating to Ireland? Deputy H. Gibbons.—Yes. —They can only come from information supplied by Ireland to the EEC. Chairman.—That information would not necessarily come from your Office? —No, not necessarily. If it came from my Office I would know precisely what is in question. When I see the actual figures in question and if there is something with which I can help the Deputy, directly rather than through this medium, it might be more satisfactory all round. Deputy H. Gibbons.—I have not seen the verbatim report, but I was struck by the discrepancy when the figures were given yesterday—— Chairman.—I think that the Accounting Officer was, strictly speaking, dealing with the current year. Deputy H. Gibbons.—I accept that. 147. Chairman.—We must have regard to the Accounting Officer’s responsibilities. Basically, would you accept the statement that the purpose of your Department is to furnish statistics for the State service and the public? —Yes. In order to furnish the statistics, is the first prerequisite to get the material, the experimental data, from which you compile your statistics? —Yes, the collection of the raw data. 148. Would I be wrong if I suggested that the raw data is very broadly collected in two ways: the first way is by the direct operation of staff under your control, where information is directly collected, such as had to be done for the Household Budget Inquiry and which you must do in order to get other statistics; it means sending people out on field work to get information which is later collated in your Office. That I would suggest is the first method. The second method is that you take all other relevant returns available to you, such as the return from a particular industry; it may be the answer to a questionnaire or the figures which come in as the record of imports, exports, shipping or something like that; it is material which comes into your office in the form of returns, material which has been collected by other than your own staff and is received by you in documentary form of some sort. I suggest that your information is, broadly speaking, obtained in those two ways. Is that correct? —Yes, that is a broad division, but in the second method there would be a very important distinction: One set of returns also relate to direct statistical inquiries which are carried out by postal correspondence rather than by field staff but are nonetheless direct collection. The second set of returns would be a by-product of other operations of administration; we would be able to avail of that information because it can be collated—it was not originally planned by us as a statistical inquiry. 149. That would be virtually two subheads of the second category I mentioned. For instance, for an industrial survey, you might take a large number of published company accounts as a basis for a possible statistic. I am talking in theory now. —Yes, but in dealing directly with manufacturing firms, for example, we generally design a statistical form for the particular information that is wanted. When I speak of the by-product I am thinking, for example, of the number of persons on the live register. You take the returns from the exchanges? —Whatever system exists for defining that —the live register. The trade statistics is another example. 150. In regard to the first, the collecting of material over which you have direct control and for which you employ staff on field work, in most cases you are dealing with a sampling operation? —Yes, that is right. The first question here is, are your samples of adequate size and would you consider that you are able to have sufficiently large and varied samples to be satisfied with the quality of the resulting statistics? —As the system exists? Yes. —There is a qualification that the size of the sample will depend upon the size of the area for which you want to get a reliable estimate. For the Household Budget, for example, the sample is in the region of 8,000 households, but we are, basically, producing figures for the country as a whole. On the other hand, on the agricultural statistics we are producing an estimate for each county and there is a much larger sample. We are covering almost 50 per cent. 151. You have answered the question on the agricultural end. Incidentally, 8,000 households for the whole country seems a small sample, does it not, or is it sufficient? —It is sufficient to give us reliable information. Each of these households then has to keep a detailed diary for a fortnight of everything that is spent. It is an intensive type of operation. 152. Coming back to the agricultural one, there has been a suggestion here this morning, as I understand it, that the agricultural statistics were collected in a broad way. It seemed to me that there was insufficient sampling and somebody said that it did not give a true picture. Is that right, Deputy Gibbons? Deputy H. Gibbons.—I did not say that exactly, but it is alleged from time to time that they could be inaccurate. Is there any spot check of the enumerators? —If I could just go back on that once again. We are very sensitive about the reliability of the figures which we are responsible for publishing. We are watching the overall level of accuracy. I would not say if one had absolute truth that it would correspond to the figure for each individual holding, for each individual category of livestock, but when these are aggregated, we are confident that we are getting the correct levels and orders of magnitude which is what is involved in the type of figure. The discrepancy you mention is a large one. We are happy that our overall results do not contain discrepancies of that magnitude. 153. Chairman.—Anyway you are dealing with averages. Perhaps you are dealing with an area in which specific deviations can be quite large. —I would hope not. The deviations would not be very large. We have no function in taking the figures for an individual person or holding and doing anything with them. When I use “deviation” I was not using it in the technical sense that it would be used in statistics. I meant the discrepancy from an individual observation. —I appreciate what you have in mind. It is a question of whether an enumerator does, in fact, go down a bóithrín to each individual farm to obtain information there or to what extent it is got by, perhaps, collecting some of it at the creamery or from neighbours. An amalgam of both methods is, in fact, used. I certainly accept that, but we are happy that it gives us the right totals at the county levels. 154. From the point of view of the discussion here this morning, might we suggest that because EEC statistics are of considerable importance now—as are your own—the problem of concordance of the two, where they are in the same area, might be a matter of future interest for you. To put it another way, if there is a marked discrepancy, as Deputies have mentioned here, it seems to pose a problem for your Office and for the State as a whole, to know what is the fact? Would you not think that you have an interest in comparing the statistics? —I would be very concerned if there was a discrepancy between what we produced and what comes from the EEC. It is clear from the Appropriation Account where it is dealing with the Appropriations-in-Aid which we did not reach yet—we actually received more than we anticipated, and the explanation is that we received money from the EEC for travelling expenses for officers attending relevant meetings of the Community. We are heavily involved in EEC meetings through their statistical office. 155. Could I suggest a compromise? We are noting here that the possibility may arise for the future of discrepancies between the two sources of statistics. If you could deal with Deputy Gibbons’s inquiries—— Deputy H. Gibbons.—As I say, I have not seen the verbatim note. I am thinking in the context of the overall figures the Minister is talking about as distinct from the Irish figures which, perhaps, Deputy J. Gibbons was quoting. —I think possibly that there are different time points involved there also. Yes. I do not want to push the point, but I air it so that attention can be given to it. 156. Deputy MacSharry.—How many permanent staff are involved in the compilation of the census of population? —In the year in question? In any year. —At the actual time of the census there would be up to 130 at the maximum, that is, people in head office, as distinct from the actual collection of particulars which takes from four to six weeks. It comes to a peak of something over 100 to 130 and then it tapers off quite substantially and levels off at possibly 50 or 60 people. 157. In the event of the census not going ahead, would those 50 or 60 people lose their jobs? —No, the 50 or 60 people would decrease in number. We still have some people tidying up special returns from the 1971 census and working on some of the final volumes for the printed records. Are they permanent staff? —They are permanent staff and are incorporated on other activities. Nobody has lost a job specifically on the decision about the 1976 census. 158. You had 130 permanent staff compiling the last census. —I was speaking of the estimate for the 1976 census, if we had had one, but it would have been of the order of 100 for 1971-72. You said the 100 from the last census are still employed in your office. —Yes, but not each of those 100 people is employed on just census work. Over a period of years, vacancies occur in an office. You have surplus staff. It is either a question of filling your own vacancies or they are transferred to a common pool and employed by other Departments. They do not lose their employment. 159. In the event of a census taking place how many new permanent staff will you require? —We would ask for sanction to employ something of the order of 100 plus, whether they are to be supplied through the Civil Service Commission—and this is outside my competence—or if they are the surplus staff available in other Departments, would depend on the overall circumstances of the time. The witness withdrew. VOTE 10—CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION.Mr. S. Ó Conaill called and examined.160. Chairman.—On subhead A.1—Salaries, Wages and Allowances—and on subhead A.2—Examiners, etc.—there is a saving under A.1 and an increase under A.2. I presume that these discrepancies arise from fluctuations in the rates of salaries and wages. Is that right? —On A.1 there were some vacancies that were not filled because there were accommodation problems at the time. 161. Deputy MacSharry.—On Appropriations-in-Aid—Receipts from the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and from county and County Borough Councils—what are those receipts? —They are the cost of conducting competitions for the Department and for local authorities. Deputy C. Murphy.—Reimbursed? —Yes. 162. Deputy H. Gibbons.—Why do the Department of Posts and Telegraphs in particular pay? —Because of the arrangements which were discussed at great length at last year’s session. The Department of Posts and Telegraphs produce commercial accounts and they charge for whatever functions they perform for Departments and then pay for services which Departments do on their behalf. The Civil Service Commission recruit a large number of staff for the Post Office, which is nearly half of the Civil Service. This represents the cost of these examinations. 163. Does this vote include the administration of the Local Appointments Commission? —Yes, there is a joint staff covering both the Civil Service Commission and the Local Appointments Commission. There are different Commissioners. 164. Chairman.—On Extra Remuneration —in future, the limit we will be asking for is £200. Is that not correct? I am mentioning it with your first Vote here. —Yes. VOTE 12—SUPERANNUATION AND RETIRED ALLOWANCES.Mr. S. Ó Conaill further examined.165. Chairman.—Paragraph 22 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads: “Subhead B—Payments under the Civil Servants’ Widows’ and Children’s Contributory Pensions Scheme Subhead C—Ex-gratia Pensions for Widows and Children of certain former Officers As mentioned in previous reports, a contributory scheme was introduced in the year 1968-69 to provide pensions for widows and children of certain public servants who died on or after 23 July, 1968. Ex-gratia pensions were granted to the widows and children of public servants who died or retired prior to that date. Pensions, including ex-gratia pensions, for dependants of members of the Garda Síochána and for dependants of National Teachers, Secondary Teachers, Post Office officials and Army officers are provided from Votes 21, 28, 29, 42 and 44, respectively. I understand that the preparation of the necessary legislation has not yet been completed.” Mr. Mac Gearailt.—This paragraph is for information. I have nothing to add. Chairman.—It would be desirable to have the formal legislation through. —Legislation has been drafted. Is it a question of getting it before the House? —Yes. We hope that it will be introduced if not this session then in the next session. 166. Deputy C. Murphy.—This deals with widows and children? —Yes. What is the position in relation to retired civil servants? I believe that at the moment they are expecting some form of readjustment. —Some changes have been made in the superannuation arrangements. They have been approved by the Dáil by means of a supplementary estimate and will eventually be embodied in legislation. 167. Deputy MacSharry.—Could the same not be done in this case? —It has been done. No payment was made on foot of any new departure on superannuation matters without a supplementary estimate being passed; that is authority to pay and eventually the matter is covered by legislation. 168. Chairman.—This question arose with the Committee on another matter. I am speaking from memory. First, we got a list of all the statutory authorities for pensions in the civil service. We understood from that that there was statutory authority for everything. That is not the point that I am raising here. I think it arose on a previous report of this Committee that, unless there is a statutory authority there, supplementary estimates are not sufficient. Mr. Mac Gearailt.—Are you referring to the case of CIE where they had a specific figure in the statute—— Chairman.—It may be. Mr. Mac Gearailt.——and the Department issued, on the basis of a supplementary estimate, a sum in excess of that. 169. Chairman.—You have just said that if a supplementary estimate is passed, it is sufficient statutory authority for such a matter. Is that right? —It is sufficient authority to enable payment to be made. The Comptroller and Auditor General is always there. That is what I wanted to know. Mr. Mac Gearailt.—We would always expect that the legislation would be amended. —The face of the supplementary estimate indicated that legislation would be introduced to give effect to the revision. 170. Chairman.—In this case it would be reasonable to suppose that the principle of this is that you bring in a supplementary estimate to deal with a time factor and that it would be unreasonable to postpone the legislation indefinitely. —Yes. I am not asking your comment on this, I am merely putting the view of the Committee. The Committee would take the view that a supplementary estimate is acceptable authority if the Comptroller and Auditor General and yourself agree in a particular year, but the basis of that acceptance is really a question of coping with a time factor. There should, in principle, be no delay in the bringing in of the supporting and necessary regularising legislation. If the Accounting Officer tells us that that legislation is prepared and waiting to go into the pipeline in Dáil Éireann, his responsibility is obviously discharged. It becomes a matter for the Dáil. The Committee are concerned with this although everything is in perfect order and there is no objection to what has been done. The Committee are concerned that a report coming before us now for the year 1973-74 refers to uncompleted legislation to enable the provisions to be given. We hear from the Accounting Officer today that though he has completed and discharged his responsibility in this, this legislation has not yet been passed. Is that the position? —That is the position, but I should explain that it was the original idea to have legislation covering this matter specifically and nothing else. But when we had a look at it, we felt that a consolidation job should be done on the pensions legislation, which goes back to 1834, and had we not been aiming at perfection it probably would have reached the statute book before now. The new legislation will cover the whole pensions code. The real difficulty about enacting pensions legislation is that it is very detailed. It therefore, requires a lot of time in the Houses. The pension schemes for teachers and the Army proceed in a different way. They proceed by orders which are submitted to both Houses. The legislation that has been drafted proposes this procedure for the civil service code in future. We are concerned with the thin end of the wedge. If authority is given by an estimate or a supplementary estimate for payment that basically requires legislation to support it, the Committee are concerned that there should be no more than a reasonable time lag. The question that naturally arises is whether to balance what the Accounting Officer has called aiming at perfection, and the good reasons he has given, against the necessity for not allowing the need for a statutory base for payment to be postponed unduly. 171. Deputy C. Murphy.—Are retired teachers covered by the PAYE system or are they under the public service system which is now to be changed? How do you intend to cope with them? —They will be brought under the PAYE system. 172. Chairman.—Before we leave paragraph 22, Departments may be interested in this point about future Estimate authority where possible legislation would be enacted. There is a big difference here from the point of view of the Dáil. A Bill has to go through a very searching procedure. There are various stages by which a Bill is put through the House. The Committee Stage, in particular, enables the legislation to be carefully sifted. Estimates are all too often rushed through on a time basis. It is one of the functions of this Committee to be the watchdog for the Oireachtas on the question of accounts. If we were to omit to watch the possibility of legislating by estimate, if the necessary supporting legislation were postponed indefinitely, we would be failing in our duty to the House if we did not draw attention to this factor. It is purely incidental on this paragraph and has come up in view of the time lag. This is not intended to be in any way a censure. —I think it would be very satisfactory to have a completely up to date code. You understand the point I am making. —Yes I do. It is a question of balancing the two. It suggests that there is urgency in getting that type of legislation implemented. The urgency arises immediately such an estimate is passed. VOTE 50—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE.Mr. S. Ó Conaill further examined.173. Chairman.—This is the Accounting Officer’s own Department. You were only established for five months of the year 1973-74? —Yes. But your expenditure was borne on the Vote for the Office of the Minister for Finance, of course? —Yes. The new arrangement by which the Minister for Finance’s responsibility has been split leaves you, generally speaking, responsible for all personnel in the service. Is that not correct? —Yes. 174. May I suggest that the point I have just made on the previous Vote in general terms may be of interest to you in helping your control as it would be to your colleague in the Department of Finance. This Committee feels that it can be useful in helping both Departments with their control in their own areas, and I would like you to look at it from that point of view. I do not think there is anything else unless Mr. Ó Conaill wants to say something. —No, but if there are any questions I would be very happy to answer them. 175. Deputy C. Murphy.—That question I asked previously—whether retired teachers were taxed under PAYE. —They will be now. Is it your function to say how you will re-adjust from the old system of being one year behind to being up-to-date? —No; income tax is the responsibility of the Minister for Finance, and my colleagues in the Office of the Revenue Commissioners deal with its administration. Chairman.—In other words, the Deputy’s point covers more than the estimate he was on, it covers the whole service? —Yes. That is essentially a matter for the Department of Finance and not for you? —Yes. The Minister for Finance has announced the change-over. 176. Deputy C. Murphy.—What I want to know is how the system whereby people have been a year behind in paying tax will be brought up to date? Chairman.—This is for the Revenue Commissioners when they come before us. —The problem was present in 1960 when the change-over took place for the general body of taxpayers. Deputy C. Murphy.—The problems that can arise for you out of that question are of a totally different nature. —Yes. I deal with staff complaints about it. We deal with complaints too. I have one or two in that regard. The witness withdrew. VOTE 8—PUBLIC WORKS AND BUILDINGS.Mr. C. Farrell called and examined.177. Chairman.—Paragraphs 17 and 18 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General can be taken together. Paragraph 17 reads: “Subhead E—New Works, Alterations and Additions The charge to the subhead comprises £2,853,705 expended on general architectural and engineering works and £6,625,683 in respect of grants towards the erection, enlargement or improvement of national schools, as compared with £2,193,843 and £3,831,804, respectively, in the previous year.” Paragraph 18 of the Report reads: “School grants amounting to £5,586,540 were paid to managers who undertook responsibility for having the works carried out and £1,039,143 was expended directly by the Commissioners. A school grant represents not less than two-thirds of the full cost, the balance being met by the manager from local contributions.” Mr. Mac Gearailt.—These paragraphs give the breakdown of the subhead charge between expenditure on general architectural and engineering works and expenditure on national school buildings and also in regard to this latter expenditure the amount expended directly by the Commissioners and the amount paid to school managers. 178. Chairman.—Would the accounting officer like to say anything about it? —If I might give some figures for schools completed in 1973/74. New schools completed 44, major improvements 30. The number of new schools in progress on the 31st March, 1974 was 105 and the number of major improvements was 94. There were 13,526 pupil places provided in new schools, 3,258 in major improvements and 4,700 in prefabricated buildings. A total of 21,424 pupil places was provided. 179. Paragraph 19 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads: “Subhead F.5—Compensation, etc., arising from Damage to the Property of External Governments Reference was made in paragraph 24 of my previous report to compensation payments made in 1972-73 in respect of damage to properties occupied by representatives of the British and German Governments and to adjoining premises. Further payments amounting to £40,480 in respect of this damage were made in the year under review.” Mr. Mac Gearailt.—Paragraph 19 is for information. Payments in respect of this compensation commenced in 1972-73 and I understand that, in all, some £177,000 has been paid to date. —Yes. There is still roughly £40,000 to £45,000 outstanding mainly in respect of damage to the former British Embassy premises in Merrion Square. A small amount is outstanding on the French Cultural Institute in Kildare St, but most of the outstanding payments are in respect of the British Embassy, 39 Merrion Square. 180. Deputy Moore.—What is the total cost of the damage to the British Embassy? —There are two buildings concerned, the British Embassy and the British Passport Office. Between the two of them it would be roughly £108,000. 181. Chairman.—Paragraph 20 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads: “Subhead G.2—Arterial Drainage —Construction Works The charge to the subhead in respect of major construction works in progress during the year amounted to £947,912. In addition, the net value of stores issued, charges for the use of plant and certain engineers’ salaries and travelling expenses in respect of these works were assessed at £343,125. The following table shows the inclusive costs of the major schemes listed:—
The balance of the charge to the subhead is made up of a sum of £52,975 in respect of a minor scheme and £12,721 being remanets of expenditure on completed schemes.” Mr. Mac Gearailt.—Paragraph 20 is for information and shows, in financial terms, the progress made on the drainage schemes mentioned as at the 31st March, 1974. 182. Deputy H. Gibbons.—Where is the Corrib-Headford drainage on the priority list? —Is this the first stage of the Corrib drainage? Yes. —The Corrib, I think, was No. 4 on the priority list. It was divided into three sections, No. 1, the Corrib, No. 2, the Corrib-Headford. Those two have been completed. Now we are approaching the third stage, the Corrib-Mask-Robe. This scheme is on exhibition at the moment and all going well we should start operating there about the end of next year. That is the third stage of the Corrib Drainage Scheme. 183. Chairman.—Paragraph 21 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads: “Suspense Account A project to improve landing facilities at Reen Pier, Castletownshend, County Cork, was approved by the Minister for Finance in August 1968 on condition that Cork County Council contributed 25 per cent of the cost then estimated at £16,000. In February 1969 the County Council paid £4,000 to the Commissioners of Public Works as its contribution. In March 1971 a revised estimated cost of £21,000 was approved by the Minister. The work, which was carried out by direct labour, was completed in December 1971 but the final cost, £27,311, was not established until March 1974. I have communicated with the Accounting Officer in regard to the delay in establishing this cost figure and in claiming the balance of the contribution from the County Council.” Mr. Mac Gearailt.—The Accounting Officer has informed me that the Minister for Finance has now approved a grant of £20,693 for this project and the county council has paid its full contribution (£6,898) towards the cost, £27,591. The delay in computing the final cost arose from a number of factors including inter-job resource transfers, accounting difficulties and shortages and shortcomings in staffing. He has assured me that he is now satisfied with the adequacy of the procedures and controls for establishing reliable final cost figures in schemes such as this which involve a local contribution. 184. Chairman.—What was the basic cause of the delay? —The basic difficulty was the acute shortage of Cost Accountants. They are like gold dust. We have serving at the moment, one Grade I, two Grade IIs and one Grade III a total of four: we should have at least double that number. They are just not to be had. We tried repeatedly over the years to recruit more but we could not get them. Then we resorted to the idea of training our own, by bringing in trainees. We got three in and have only one left; two of them have gone for more attractive money outside and we have to try to get two more trainees to build up our own staff of accountants. There has been such a demand outside over the years, that they simply were not interested in coming to work for the State. They can get more money outside. That was the difficulty in this period. We had difficulties also in the accounting and administrative side with frequent changes of staffs and inexperience of staff in the Claims Division of the Accounts Branch which is the principal division concerned. The authorised staff in this division is 38 and of the 38 only 13 of those serving in March, 1973 now remain. The others have gone, promoted, retired or have been transferred. Even in the 25 we had a turnover of 12 in the past two years. The lack of experience has been a very telling factor in this whole business and created enormous difficulties. The basic trouble was the shortage of Cost Accountants who were vital in assessing the payments or charges in cases. This has all been cleared up now. We have the contribution from the Cork County Council and the sanction of the Minister for Finance for the State contribution. 185. Deputy H. Gibbons.—Is the work still being held up by the shortage of Cost Accountants? —It is slowed. We are not proceeding as quickly as we would like to. We are not getting the feedback. We are doing everything we possibly can to counteract the shortage. Do you have to recruit them through the Civil Service Commission? —Yes. You cannot take in temporary people? —Even the temporary people are not there. That is the trouble. 186. Deputy Moore.—On subhead D— Purchase of Sites and Buildings—do they ever consider the building of office blocks? —We are working towards that now. After the establishment of the State, we had the reconstruction of the Four Courts, GPO and the Customs House. Then, just after the start of the 1939-45 war we completed the Department of Industry and Commerce building in Kildare Street. That was the biggest to date. Since then we have built the Stamping Branch office in Dublin Castle, about £1¼ million; that was a really big one. At the moment we are considering tenders for a new Meteorological Office in Glasnevin on the site of the old Marlborough House School of Detention, buildings on the site of 13/14 Earlsfort Terrace, on Shelbourne Road near the Veterinary College, on part of the site of the former Trinity College Botanic Gardens, and for Stage I of a new Garda Headquarters at the back of what is known as the Depot in the Phoenix Park. These are the first steps in a major scheme of building our own offices. On a recent visit to Mayo I saw some building at Castlebar—— —At Athlone and Castlebar, two buildings are being erected. That at Castlebar is intended for staff of the Department of Lands. The building will be finished in April or May, 1976 and a number of staff of the Department of Lands—I think about 150—will be transferred there from Dublin together with the local staffs in Castlebar including the regional staffs of the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries. 187. Deputy C. Murphy.—Is the building which the Forest and Wildlife Service of the Department of Lands have in Bray owned by the Department? —No, we took a lease of it for ten years. You are doing extensive work there—— —Yes. On such a short lease, is this expenditure justified? —I am not sure whether the lease is for ten years or more. We were satisfied as to the expenditure in regard to the lease term. I think that is nearly finished. It is practically complete. —As a decentralisation measure, some people from Dublin will be sent there to work. 188. On subhead E—New Works, Alterations and Additions—what is the position when something unforeseen happens to the customs and frontier posts along the Border? Do the Office of Public Works restore them? Is compensation ever paid? —Legally we could take proceedings for malicious injury but on grounds of Government policy, we do not. Would this be against the local authorities? —Yes, it would be. It would lie against the authority of the county in which the destroyed structure was. We provide temporary accommodation in such cases, mobile offices and so on. 189. Is it anticipated that because of the EEC many of these will become obsolete or have you thought of what you might do? —We are a bit in the dark on this. It would really be a matter for the Revenue Commissioners to decide what frontier posts there would be. There will be some posts, we gather, still required, even in the EEC. For example, we are providing a new permanent road station in Monaghan, where the existing station has been the cause of a lot of trouble, because it is a traffic hazard. We had to decide to shift it outside the town, and the new building is at the moment in course of construction. So far as we know, there will still be some customs posts required at the Border. 190. What is the market value of these sites? —They are very small sites. Then some of them might be mobile? —Some of them are at the moment. 191. Deputy Moore.—On item No. 50 of the Statement of New Works etc. which we have received*—houses for married members of the Garda Síochána—what do you do under this heading? —This concerns 446 houses occupied by married Gardaí and built by the National Building Agency for the Department of Justice. We have taken over responsibility for the maintenance of these 446 houses. It was a special effort to help the Garda housing problems throughout the country. As a matter of policy, we now build at least one house with each new rural station. That is an on-going thing. 192. Deputy C. Murphy.—On item No. 49—the provision of temporary accommodation for courts—the Circuit Court in Wicklow meet in the council offices. Have the OPW any plans for provision of their own courthouses? —With the exception of Dublin, the provision of courthouses—and that also applies to the Central Criminal Court in Green Street—is the responsibility of the local authorities. The provision here relates only to temporary accommodation in Dublin and was principally intended for a temporary Children’s Court. Apart from Dublin, that is the Four Courts complex, all other courthouse accommodation is a matter for the local authorities. The only way we can come into it is under a provision of the Courthouses Act, 1935; if the local authority falls down on the maintenance of the courthouses, the Minister for Justice can give an order to us to repair the courthouse. That has happened only once, so far as I can remember, in Drogheda, where we did a big repair job. A similar question is being raised in Waterford but it has not yet come to a head. 193. Chairman.—On subhead I—Coast Protection—where are your principal problems of coast protection? —Locationwise? Yes. —Enniscrone, County Sligo, Ballyvoile, County Waterford and the Maherees, County Kerry. Enniscrone is probably the biggest. 194. On subhead J.2—Conservation and Restoration of Holycross Abbey—what is the position there now? —The position is that the bulk of the work has been done. The place has been formally opened. We have spent to date about £270,000 by way of grant-in-aid and we have collected about £79,000 from the diocesan trustees. They have to refund to us in time the total of the grant-in-aid for restoration. The church was formally opened on the 5th October, 1975. It has got to the stage of being usable now, but certain finishing works have still to be carried out. It is virtually completed. 195. On subhead K—Expense of Operation of the ASGARD—what is your position now? —I think this will be the last year in which this will appear on our Votes. It has gone to the Department of Defence. 196. On Appropriations-in-aid—What sales of property were involved in Item No. 3? —The largest was 33 Merrion Road, formerly the property of An Foras Talúntais, which was transferred to us free of charge because it was State funds that purchased it originally. By Government decision it was resold by us to the British authorities for the purpose of an embassy. 197. On Item 4—Recoveries from Department of Posts and Telegraphs—what services are being rendered to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs? —Mainly maintenance of buildings and the construction of new postal buildings. Since April 1964, all services rendered by us to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs have been on a repayment basis. The item is carried in our Vote and recovered as an appropriation-in-aid from the Posts and Telegraphs’ Vote. 198. On Item 8—interest on deposit receipts—what deposits are these? —Purchase moneys lodged in joint names in banks. We get the interest. 199. On Extra Remuneration, for what work are these fees for professional services paid? —That is mainly in relation to maintaining the supply of new school buildings. The witness withdrew. The Committee adjourned. |
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