Committee Reports > List of Committees > Dáil > 1973 > Committee of Public Accounts > Report - Appropriation Accounts 1970 - 1971

MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA

(Minutes of Evidence)

Déardaoin, 22 Samhain, 1973

Thursday, 22nd November, 1973

The Committee met at 11 a.m.

Mr. S. Mac Gearailt (An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste) called and examined.

VOTE 45—EXTERNAL AFFAIRS.

Mr. H. McCann called and examined.

670. Chairman.—On the Appropriations in Aid, Item No. 1—Repayment by An Bord Scoláireachtaí Comhmhalairte in respect of staff seconded and services provided—there is a figure of £3,115. What does that relate to?

—Under the Act which set up the Scholarship Exchange Board there is provision that accommodation and secretarial services are provided by the Minister for External Affairs, as he then was, and we are to be reimbursed for any expenses incurred by him in relation to the secretarial services. The surplus of receipts under this heading is due to the fact that the staff that were made available to the board in 1970-71 would have received, in common with civil servants generally, the increases that were made available in that year.

VOTE 46—INTERNATIONAL CO-OPERATION.

Mr. H. McCann further examined.

671. Deputy H. Gibbons.—On subhead C.4—Contribution towards Expanded Programme of Technical Assistance—to whom is the technical assistance made available?

—It is made available to the underdeveloped countries.

672. Deputy E. Collins.—Is this a direct monetary contribution or is it by way of technical assistance?

—It takes the form mainly of the provision of the services of experts to advise on development schemes in the areas of economic development, social welfare and public administration. It also provides for the award of fellowships and grants to enable nationals of the less developed countries to study abroad. It covers the provision of equipment in limited amounts in connection with the work of experts and particularly for demonstration purposes.

673. Is there a new scheme under which consortia of consultants in Ireland get a contribution to carry out work in underdeveloped countries?

—If the United Nations development programme sought that type of assistance that could happen, but it is for those at the UN who formulate the programme to determine what they need.

It seems to be something that should be encouraged rather than have direct financial help?

—Most of our assistance does not go in the form of direct financial help.

674. Deputy H. Gibbons.—Do you make this available in isolation or in consultation with other countries?

—We make the money available to the UN organisation involved. It is multilateral, not bilateral, aid.

675. What are the United Nations bonds?

—In June, 1962, we purchased United Nations bonds to the value of $300,000 at a cost of £106,838. This was to help finance the United Nations at the time and we now get repayment of the interest and principal. The payment is made directly to the Department of Finance, but because the money was originally provided out of the Vote for International Co-operation, the Comptroller and Auditor General felt there should be a note in the account in this Vote about repayments, even though the repayments do not come to our Vote.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 26—LOCAL GOVERNMENT.

Mr. G. Meagher called and examined.

676. Chairman.—Paragraph 36 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Motor Vehicle Duties

A test examination of the revenue from motor vehicle duties, etc., was carried out with satisfactory results. The reports of the Local Government auditors who examine the motor tax transactions of local authorities are made available to me.

The gross proceeds in 1970-71 amounted to £15,920,420 compared with £13,768,029 in the previous year. They include fines amounting to £331,521 collected by the Department of Justice; £13,552 fees received under the Road Traffic Act, 1961, Road Traffic (Public Service Vehicles) Regulations 1963 to 1970; £9,186 fees collected by planning authorities in respect of appliances and structures for servicing vehicles; £75,697 fees received by the Department of Local Government pursuant to the Road Traffic (Licensing of Drivers) Regulations, 1964 to 1969, and £130,733 received from government departments in respect of State-owned vehicles.

£16,063,697 was paid into the Exchequer and £13,512 was refunded leaving a balance of £326,609 compared with £483,398 at the end of the previous financial year.”

Mr. Mac Gearailt.—This paragraph gives details of some of the moneys collected under the general heading Motor Vehicle Duties, etc. The bulk of the receipts arise from

677. Deputy Bermingham.—This is really a form of local tax?

—Yes.

Motor tax is paid into the Department of Local Government and is transfered to the Department of Finance?

—Yes, the Exchequer Account. The money moves first into a Local Motor Tax Account from the taxation offices. It is transferred to the Central Motor Tax Account and from that into the Exchequer and the Road Fund.*

678. What percentage of it goes back to the Road Fund?

—All of it except those percentages which are taken into the Exchequer by virtue of the Finance Acts of 1966, 1970 and 1973.

What do you mean by “all of it”? What percentage would that represent?

—The Finance Act of 1966 is the first “take”. That provided for a flat increase of 25 per cent over the rates for private cars and motor cycles and that increase is retained for general Exchequer purposes. The other increase I mentioned is under the Finance Act (No. 2) of 1970, which raised the increased 1966 tax rates and that increase is also retained by the Exchequer. More recently the 1973 increase brought in fairly substantial additions to rates of taxation. The tax increased on private cars by 10 per cent; on motor cycles by 33⅓ per cent to 78 per cent; and by a varied amount on goods vehicles. In the case of lighter vehicles there were some increases. There were reductions in taxation on the top weight vehicles. There were additions to taxation on agricultural tractors. Fees for driving licences and driving tests were raised. All these increases in the 1973 Budget have been retained for Exchequer purposes. The Road Fund gets the proceeds of motor vehicle taxation, which is effectively at the rates operative since 1952.

679. Since 1952 any increase has gone to the Exchequer?

—Yes. Increases over the 1952 rates are held by the Exchequer. Going beyond the year 1970-71, the Estimate for Local Government for the current year provides a subhead for a subvention to the Road Fund from voted moneys. The figure that is in the Estimate is proposed to be increased by way of Supplementary Estimate which is currently under debate in the Dáil. The total subvention proposed for the Road Fund in the current year is about £5.6 million that is over and above the proceeds of motor taxation which accrue to the Road Fund in the current year.

They will get more from the Exchequer?

—They will get the proceeds of the 1952 tax rates also.

Am I correct in saying that the amount prior to 1952 tax goes to the Road Fund?

—Yes.

There is more from the Exchequer direct but not from the Road Fund?

—Yes. The subvention through the Department’s Vote is calculated on the actual needs for road construction works. It is unrelated to the Road Fund in that it does not represent a fixed percentage. It is based on the overall needs for road grants.

680. I am trying to find out how it would compare with the total now being received.

Mr. Mac Gearailt.—If you look at the account on page vi of the Appropriation Accounts volume—“Issues from the Capital Fund”—you will see that £13 million was issued from that Fund into the Road Fund in the year under review.

—I have a figure for 1973-74, which, naturally, is an estimate. The total motor taxation income is estimated at £24 million approximately. The Exchequer appropriation is what the Deputy is referring to. That is estimated at £8 million, making a net Road Fund income of £16 million.

Deputy Bermingham.—That would be from the taxation?

—Exactly.

Will they get more from the Exchequer?

—Yes. The actual subvention in the current financial year by way of vote will be £5.6 million. One can compare the estimated £8 million as the Exchequer appropriation from the motor taxation proceeds with the voted provision of £5.6 million.

It is not as bad as I thought.

681. Chairman.—Subhead C—Post Office Services.

—That is a Post Office estimate. It is for services provided by the Post Office.

682. Deputy Bermingham.—On Appropriations in Aid, No. 5—Fees Payable by Applicants for Grants under the Housing Act, 1966—what does this cover?

—It covers fees paid to the Department in respect of applications for new house grants.

683. Deputy Tunney.—In regard to Extra Remuneration, the amount paid to one messenger seems rather high at £343?

—That is so. The cost of overtime has been high. My recollection is that this was mainly due to security and the need for men to be in the offices at weekends and late at night. We have taken some steps to reduce the impact of overtime but my recollection is that in the year in question it was essentially one of security. There had been some break-ins.

Chairman.—Mr. Meagher, that completes the Vote. Thank you very much.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 18—VALUATION AND ORDNANCE SURVEY.

Mr. J. M. McNicholl called and examined.

684. Deputy Tunney.—On subhead E— Equipment—was the item subsequently provided?

—Yes.

At the same price?

—I think the price was £3,505.

VOTE 19—RATES ON GOVERNMENT PROPERTY.

Mr. J. M. McNicholl further examined.

685. Deputy H. Gibbons.—On subhead B —Contributions towards Rates on premises occupied by Representatives of External Governments—do we pay the rates of the embassies?

—Yes, we ask the Embassies to pay the amount of the rates which would be regarded as services. The Embassies do this but we have a continuing dispute with the US Government.

They are too poor?

—Apparently the position is that in America there are no rates on the occupiers of property and they think that what is right for them there should be right for them here.

686. Is there a reciprocal arrangement for our Embassies in other countries?

—Yes. This is the one in which we have a difficulty.

How does our Embassy fare in America?

—I do not think that comes under my Votes.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 20—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR JUSTICE.

Mr. A. Ward called and examined.

687. Deputy Tunney.—On subhead D.1. —Payments to the Incorporated Council of Law Reporting for Ireland—what is the origin of this payment?

—Part of it is paid for the publication of law reports, the reports of the judgments of the Supreme Court and High Court. The reference in the Note is to a subvention for the publication of legal textbooks as they become available. When a textbook is sold subsequently the receipts are brought into account against the grant.

688. Chairman.—That includes the publication of the Irish Reports. How much, in this year, for that?

—Of the £7,000 there, something under £5,000.

That would be for ten or eleven issues? It does not come out in August.

—I am not certain.

689. Deputy Tunney.—I do not quite understand the position about the publication of legal textbooks.

—Under the auspices of this Council some legal textbooks have been or are in the process of being published and this is a subsidy for this work.

690. We subsidise the publication of legal books. Is that correct?

—Yes, on the basis that there will be a repayment as the books are sold.

691. How does the total repayment correspond with the amount advanced?

—Effectively, one can fully answer that only in respect of one book so far, which has paid for itself; another has almost paid for itself.

692.—Chairman.—Can you say what these books were?

—One is on Landlord and Tenant Law by Judge Deale of the Circuit Court.

It has been published?

—Yes. That has paid for itself. Another book is likely to be published in the coming calendar year. That will be on the Registration of Title.

By whom?

—By the Registrar of Title.

693. Deputy H. Gibbons.—Does the author get something?

—Yes.

694. On whose initiative are the books published? The Council’s?

—Yes, the Council’s.

They engage somebody to do the work?

—That is right.

They put up the proposal to you?

—Yes.

695. Chairman.—On subhead D.2.—Committee on Irish and Comparative Law (Grant-in-Aid)—what activities come under that heading?

—That is an informal committee which includes some lawyers from the North of Ireland and some from here. It has not, for one reason or another, been active over the last couple of years, but there may now be a prospect that it will be reactivated. They have produced two reports, one on aspects of labour law and the other related to commercial law.

696. Deputy H. Gibbons.—On subhead F —Legal Aid—while we are given to understand that there is not enough legal aid made available, here the expenditure is less than the amount granted.

—This, of course, relates to the position as it was some years ago. At the present time, legal aid expenditure is running close to £40,000 per annum.

697. Deputy Bermingham.—Is there a means test for those who apply for legal aid? What are the criteria used?

—It is administered by the District Justice. It is a general assessment of need. It is not a full means test of the kind that might be applied when it is a question of periodic payments such as social welfare payments. It is an ad hoc investigation, and it is the District Justice’s assessment that determines the question.

VOTE 21—GARDA SÍOCHÁNA.

Mr. A. Ward further examined.

698. Deputy Tunney.—Is it usual to put moneys in respect of wireless equipment in with travelling?

—The heading includes “Incidental”, and “Incidental’ was not apparently intended to be read as cognate with “Travelling”. In fact, it does include expenditure on radio.

699. Normally, one would expect that there would be some affinity between the stated subhead and anything coming under it.

—I can see that that is arguable and I would not seek to controvert it. It is perhaps of some relevance to note that the estimate is broken into three subheads, one of which is “Miscellaneous”, and that is the one that includes radio. Incidentally, it also includes radar used for traffic purposes.

Chairman.—It is the biggest item of the three. In the Estimate, Locomotion etc., was £182,000, Subsistence Allowances, £106,000 and Miscellaneous, £233,000.

700. Deputy Tunney.—Is there any accounting reason why wireless equipment should not be put under some other heading like Clothing and Equipment, rather than under Travelling and Incidental.

—I do not think there is any special reason why items such as radio could not be better identified in some fashion. I am not necessarily giving it as my view that it would be appropriate to do it in the precise way you are suggesting. It may very well be, but as we have had it down the years, at least for some years, I should prefer not to express a definite view. “Equipment” has been suggested but “equipment” in this context is already used to mean something else, a much narrower sense, something associated with clothing, torches, that sort of thing.

701. Chairman.—You know these walkie-talkie sets the Garda have, where are they accounted for?

—In the Miscellaneous part of subhead B in the Estimate.

702. Would that not be more appropriate under the heading “Equipment”, under your definition now, along with torches and things like that?

—I am sorry. I was wrong when I said “torches”. Small items like Garda whistles directly associated with the uniforms are the only things that are included under the heading “Clothing and Equipment”.

What about batons? Where do they come in?

—Clothing and Equipment.

703. Do you not think it would be good to rationalise this?

—Subject to what the Comptroller and Auditor General would say, I think it is a matter for what I might call expert assessment, and I would not want to appear to be holding myself out as an expert on the precise way these things should be listed. I can only say this is the situation which we have inherited. It has been there for some years but I do not see why it should be that way.

704. Deputy Tunney.—I anticipate that there has been big expenditure in the field of wireless equipment over the last year or two. More is anticipated. There will probably be a situation where expenditure on wireless equipment will exceed travelling expenses.

—So far as I know items like this were shown separately some years ago. A decision was taken that some tidying-up was needed and a number of items were grouped together under “Miscellaneous”.

705. Chairman.—In your Estimate the biggest part of that particular subhead is shown under “Miscellaneous”. If you look at the Estimates volume, in Vote 21 you will see that subhead B relates to travelling and incidental expenses. Subhead B relates to locomotion and transfer expenses including repayable advances to officers and inspectors for the purchase of motor cars and that is, for the year 1970-71, £182,500. Subhead B2 relates to subsistence et cetera allowances and is £106,000. Subhead B3 relates to “Miscellaneous” and amounts to £233,500. The tail seems to be wagging the dog. Does it not?

—Yes, I think so.

706. Do you think it would be possible to account for this under a specific subhead or to bring it into a more natural position, such as under “clothing and equipment”? We are not dogmatic about this at this stage. It is something that should be looked at.

—May I explain that, as between our Department and the Department of Finance, the form of the Estimate is determined by the Department of Finance. Subject to that qualification, I can say that, in so far as we are concerned in the Department of Justice, we see no reason why a change on the lines suggested should not be made.

Deputy Tunney.—You have no objection?

—None at all.

707. Chairman.—Subhead H—Superannuation and other non-effective payments.

Deputy H. Gibbons.—What is the meaning of “non-effective payments”?

—It is a general word traditionally used to describe payments for which no current value is being received, in other words, a payment to a person who is not now serving. This would include lump sums paid on a person’s retirement. It is analogous to the superannuation payments.

708. Chairman.—What does “Payments for services rendered by the Garda Síochána” mean? What would those services comprise?

—The principal example would be payments made by people in charge of sporting fixtures where gardaí go on a voluntary basis to help to preserve order.

709. There is an item “Proceeds of sales of old stores and cast-off uniforms.” Has any attention been given to old Garda overcoats? This is common to old Army overcoats, too. The actual buttons are on the coats. Having regard to the appearance of the persons concerned—twice in the last six months I noticed people wearing such old overcoats—should the buttons be left on? Is there any restriction about disposing of these in a way that would be suitable?

—That should not happen. Under the regulations, there is no doubt that buttons should be removed.

VOTE 22—PRISONS.

Mr. A. Ward further examined.

710. Chairman.—Paragraph 35 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads as follows:

“Subhead F.—Prisoners Aid Through Community Effort (Grant-in-Aid)

PACE (Prisoners Aid through Community Effort), a voluntary organisation, was incorporated as a company in October 1969 with the object of helping former prisoners to adjust to a normal life in the community. A grant-in-aid amounting to £4,000 was made in the year to the organisation towards the cost of a hostel for homeless ex-prisoners.”

Mr. Mac Gearailt.—This is a grant-in-aid to help in setting up a “half-way house” to accommodate homeless prisoners on discharge. It represents a contribution towards the cost of essential repairs and renovations to the house. The grant was paid to the General Secretary of PACE, which is a company limited by guarantee and not having a share capital.

711. Deputy H. Gibbons.—Are there any grants made for maintenance, for providing food, clothing and things like that?

—There have not been so far. I believe they are applying for one at present or, at least, the matter is being considered by them.

712. Deputy Bermingham.—A prisoner would go to this half-way house prior to getting employment?

—Yes.

I presume he would qualify for the normal social welfare benefits while there?

—Yes.

713. Deputy H. Gibbons.—How many prisoners avail of this service?

—At any one time it would be of the order of 15.

VOTE 23—COURTS.

Mr. A. Ward further examined.

714. Deputy H. Gibbons.—On subhead A —Salaries, Wages and Allowances—what is the position in regard to stenographers in the courts? I understand there is always a scarcity?

—There is still a difficulty.

VOTE 24—LAND REGISTRY AND REGISTRY OF DEEDS.

Mr. A. Ward further examined.

715. Deputy Bermingham.—On subhead A—Salaries, Wages and Allowances—is there a shortage of staff in the Land Registry?

—There was a difficulty at that time, 1970-71, about recruiting staff. It was not an unwillingness to recruit staff. Since then the position has changed quite radically and there has been a major re-organisation within the Land Registry. It still is not solved but the position has greatly improved.

The witness withdrew.

The Committee adjourned.

* See Appendix 9.