Committee Reports > List of Committees > Dáil > 1972 > Committee of Public Accounts > Final Report - Northern Ireland Relief Expenditure

APPENDIX 8.

Second “Arms Trial” October 1970

Tape recordings of the evidence at the second “Arms Trial” October 1970 were made available to the Committee at its request by permission of the President of the High Court and Mr. Justice Henchy. Transcriptions of two portions of these recordings were made at the direction of the Committee and are printed hereunder.

References are made to the evidence so transcribed in paragraphs 74 and 75 of the Final Report.

(i) 13 October 1970—Referred to in paragraph 74 of the Final Report.

1. Counsel.—Did you make any comment when Captain Kelly suggested that arms and ammunition would be retained under his sole custody and control?

Colonel Hefferon.—No, I didn’t. I tried to make it clear earlier that this was not a position in which I felt I had much jurisdiction at all because Captain Kelly from January onwards had been reporting to the Minister for Defence and other Ministers in this matter.

2. That’s what I am coming to. In fact you regarded what was going on, whatever Captain Kelly was up to, as being no concern of yours at all.

—No, not entirely that. I felt it was a concern of mine because, as Director of Intelligence, I had to know what was going on and in view of certain developments in February and March, connected with both the Government directive and delegations from the North of Ireland, I felt it was of great importance that I keep in touch with what was going on but that my authorising these things to be done was a very different matter.

3. It just didn’t arise. Is that so?

—I didn’t have the authority.

4. You were not giving him any orders in relation to this course of conduct?

—No.

5. You say that you were aware that he had been in contact with Ministers and you mentioned “in contact with the Minister for Defence from early February”. Is that correct?

—Yes.

6. I want to put to you that you know the first time that Captain Kelly met the Minister for Defence was in March?

—I beg your pardon. You said “in contact with the Minister for Defence”?

7. Yes.

—I misunderstood you there. He was not in contact with the Minister for Defence in early February. I am sorry about that.

8. Was he to your knowledge, and as a result of what he told you, in contact with other Ministers at that time?

—He was.

9. Who were the Ministers he was in contact with?

—Mr. Haughey and Mr. Blaney.

10. And as a result of what Captain Kelly told you, you apparently regarded him as a direct link between what and what?

—I regarded him as a direct link between the Government and the defence committee.

11. Did Captain Kelly, in the course of his various discussions with you, tell you that he was doing no more than carrying out instructions that had been given to him by Ministers?

—What he told me in particular I do not know but the general impression I had from him was that he was acting on behalf of the Government and that these Ministers were the Ministers concerned with Northern affairs.

12. Captain Kelly told you he was acting on behalf of the Government?

—Yes.

13. And you believed him?

—I did.

14. Who was the first Minister that he named to you as instructing him to do anything on behalf of the Government?

—Mr. Haughey.

15. When did he first tell you that Mr. Haughey had asked him to do anything on behalf of the Government?

—I don’t know. I think it would go back to possibly October.

16. Did he also, in that context, mention that Mr. Blaney had asked him to do things on behalf of the Government?

—Yes at that time or perhaps some time later.

17. Did Captain Kelly tell you that he was doing anything on the instructions of either Mr. Haughey or Mr. Blaney in connection with the Northern defence committees between, say, September, 1969, and March, 1970 prior to his first meeting with Mr. Gibbons.

—Yes.

18. So that up to the time he first met Mr. Gibbons would you say you regarded Captain Kelly as a link between the Government and the Northern defence committees because of the Ministers he met and mentioned to you—you are speaking of two Ministers only, is not that so?

—Up to 3rd/4th March, yes.

19. Up to the date on which he first met Mr. Gibbons?

—No, before that. Yes, I suppose he had met him on that date first.

20. Now, I want to come back to the conversation you had with him about the storage of these arms. Did Captain Kelly tell you that in bringing in these arms he was acting with the knowledge and approval of Government Ministers, or is that something you perhaps wrongly inferred from what he said to you?

—No, he told me that and he also had reported to me about the reception which had been accorded to some of the delegations from the North on the 3rd and 4th of March during which the Minister for Defence as well as the other Ministers had met them, that I took it that he was acting on behalf of the Government.

21. I’ll come to that in a moment.

—In acting with these Ministers, yes.

22. But did he tell you that in importing these arms he was acting on the instructions of any Minister of the Government or is that something you inferred?

—I certainly inferred it but I think that also Mr. Haughey and Mr. Blaney were, knew of his acting in this capacity, about giving him orders is a different matter, I don’t know.

—About giving him orders or acting on the orders of any Minister, this I don’t know. Of course, I didn’t think Ministers would have a right to give him orders, except for the Minister for Defence.

23. You knew what he was doing?

—That’s right, yes.

24. Now, I want you to be as clear as you possibly can about this, Colonel Hefferon. Do you recall Captain Kelly telling you this or is it something you inferred as a result of a series of conversations, would you say?

—It would be something certainly I inferred as a result of a series of conversations and discussions.

25. Did Captain Kelly make it clear to you as a result of many meetings that he was acting on behalf of certain Ministers in the Government?

—He did.

26. And up to the time of his meeting with Mr. Gibbons the only Ministers so concerned, Captain Kelly said, were Mr. Haughey and Mr. Blaney?

—Yes.

(ii) 19 October 1970—Referred to in paragraph 75 of the Final Report.

27. Counsel.—Mr. Haughey, in August or September of 1969—I’m not sure of the exact month—was there a committee of the Cabinet set up to deal with the special situation in the North?

Mr. Haughey.—I wouldn’t say it was to deal with the special situation in the North but one of the things that was very much on the Government’s mind at that time was the lack of information we had on internal matters inside the Six County area and a committee, consisting of myself, Mr. Blaney, Mr. Faulkner and Mr. Joe Brennan, was established and we were given the instruction that we should develop the maximum possible contacts with persons inside the Six Counties and try and inform ourselves as fully as possible on events and on political and other type of developments in the Six County area.

28. Was there any particular individual who was—not in the Cabinet I mean now—any person who was concerned in creating a link between you and your fellow members and the people in the North?

—Yes, Captain Kelly.

29. When was that committee set up?

—I’m afraid I couldn’t be exactly sure, but it was in the August/September time. There were many, many things happening at that time. I couldn’t put a precise date on the, or at what particular meeting the decision was taken to set up the committee.

30. Did you come into personal contact with Captain Kelly then?

—I did, yes.

31. Can you remember what month it was?

—I am certain it was September.