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MIONTUAIRISC NA FIANAISE(Minutes of Evidence)Dé Céadaoin, 24 Márta, 1971Wednesday, 24th March, 1971The Committee met at 11.00 a.m.
DEPUTY P. HOGAN in the chair. ORDER OF DÁIL OF 1st DECEMBER, 1970.Mr. E. F. Suttle (An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste) was in attendance in an advisory capacity.The Committee went into Public Session at 4 p.m. Mr. James Fitzpatrick sworn and examined.10416. Chairman.—Now, Mr. Fitzpatrick on page 3 of the little pink book and on pages 50 and 51 there are some entries in respect of your expenditure? —Yes. 10417. We have here a detailed summary. You are familiar with it; I imagine it was you who prepared it, was it? —That is right, yes. 10418. What is the meaning of the words “RRE grant”? —Refugee Re-establishment Grant. 10419. “RE” means re-establishment? —Yes. 10420. The total sum here is £43,450. Is that correct? —Yes. 10421. How many cases have you in it? I did not count them myself? —In fact, I brought with me, Mr. Chairman, an up-to-date list. As of yesterday’s date the number of families was 217 and the total amount expended was £53,000 and some odd pounds. I had it in my briefcase but unfortunately—I think it is coming in to me. I have the file with me, if you want it, I can hand it in. 10422. Is there any general statement you want to make about this? —As you probably know, from the information you have in that report this committee was established under the patronage of Dr. Philbin, the Catholic Bishop of Down and Connor, and the Chairman of the Committee—— 10423. Deputy Collins.—Excuse me. It is customary to give people living outside the jurisdiction a certain amount of privilege in regard to the publication of names. Perhaps it would be better to continue with that procedure? —Mr. Tobin had mentioned this to me earlier and we have no objection to publicity. It was publicly known in Belfast that this Committee was in existence. 10424 Chairman.—Right. —The chairman of the Committee was the Vicar General, Monsignor Mullally and the members of the Committee were Father Sean Lowry who worked at welfare work in the city, Mr. Tom Connolly and Mr. Tim McHale of the Munster and Leinster Bank and myself. This Committee evolved out of the larger Trench House Co-ordinating Committee for relief and it was really an off-shoot for the specific purpose of helping families to buy houses. As you probably know, the total number of families displaced was 2,500 in the Belfast area. This record of the total number can easily be verified because the families who were rehoused through the housing agencies like Belfast Corporation, the Housing Trust and a society known as the Belfast Housing Aid Society, they more or less rehoused over 2,000 families. We were really only able to help a pretty small proportion of those who were believed to undertake owner-occupation. 10425. The Secretary has given you a list of names with letters in front of them. If you mention anybody’s name perhaps you will use a letter for obvious reasons? —I have a form which we used. We had a printed form which every applicant had to complete and also it had to be completed by a solicitor acting for the applicant. There was a completion form when the house was purchased and registered which had to be completed by the solicitor and returned to the Committee so there was no question of running into difficulty or helping in cases where we should not have been, in fact, helping. I can hand in this form if the Committee would like to examine it. I have also been authorised by the Chariman of the Committee to give you a complete copy of our bank account. This is a photostat copy of the bank account, which was operated at the Munster and Leinster Bank in High Street. You will see the entry of the £20,000 which was received from the Irish Red Cross Society. You will see a further entry for a substantial sum of £25,000 that we received through the good offices of Mr. Seán Ó Síocháin of the Gaelic Athletic Association. This was received in March, 1970. (Documents handed in). 10426. You have no objection to our making photostat copies of these? —No I have not. This is a copy of the up-to-date report I referred to showing the total number of 217 families and an expenditure of £53,396 11s. 2d. (Documents handed in). 10427. I will hand this copy of the bank account to the Comptroller and Auditor-General to look through and pass it around to the members of the Committee afterwards. Have you anything further to say at this point? —No I have not. 10428. This fund dealt entirely with people who had been put out of their houses or had to be rehoused in some way? —Yes. It also helped a number of publicans who were suffering substantially. We gave a weekly sum to a restricted number for a number of weeks. I would prefer not to disclose names in connection with this. 10429. The money you got from here was entirely devoted to that purpose and to no other purpose. It was purely for the type of work you would call Red Cross relief. —It was purely for relief. 10430. It was purely for social purposes? —Yes. 10431. It had nothing to do with the purchase of guns? —No, definitely not. Every entry, every debit in the account is shown in the copy of the bank account and can be checked. 10432. Deputy E. Collins.—I have no question to ask apart from paying a compliment to the work of your committee which was done obviously in very trying circumstances. 10433. Deputy Keating.—I would like to ask about the income. You dispensed £53,000 odd, something over £53,000? —Yes. 10434. You have told us that £20,000 came from the Red Cross and this would be funds with which we are directly concerned since the original source was the £100,000 Grant-in-Aid. You have also told us that £25,000 came through Mr. Seán Ó Síocháin and this is presumably as a result of efforts of the GAA in collecting moneys. This leaves a balance of £8,000 odd. I do not want to know the precise source, if this is in any way sensitive, but I wanted to ask you if any of that £8,000 came from moneys which could form the subject of our investigation? In other words, did any of it come through any source from what was originally the £100,000 Grant-in-Aid? —No, Deputy, it would not. There were some sums received from the United States. They are shown in the bank account converted from dollars into sterling. There was a sum received from Cardinal Conway but there certainly would not have been any other moneys that could have related to the £100,000 other than the £20,000. 10435. This is the point we want to be clear about because we want to know, of your £53,000 of expenditure, how much of that can be debited from the £100,000 that we are, in fact, investigating. Is the answer to that question, just to be clear, that £20,000 can be debited to our £100,000? —Yes. 10436. But no other moneys as far as you understand it? —No. 10437. Deputy MacSharry.—When this initial £20,000 was passed on, it was an initial grant of £20,000. No other funds came from this source? —No. 10438. From our source? —No. 10439. None whatsoever? —No. 10440. Was there any reason for that in your own mind? —There was not really. I remember at the interview I had with Mr. Haughey at the time I thought he was being generous at £20,000. I can remember he mentioned that we have our own housing problems down here and we felt that we should not impose too heavily on the Government in Dublin. The main pressure we really wanted to put was on the Government in Northern Ireland who had allowed the situation to develop. 10441. And you did not ever make any further request? —No, we did not. 10442. On this list you have given us, the up-to-date list of so many families who were helped and the actual amount of money given to each family, how was the amount assessed? I see some as low as £25 and some as big as £300? —That is right. It was very difficult because we wanted to get working straight away. We really relied, as far as we could, on the integrity of people and in fact on the front of the form we printed this and we relied on the solicitor acting in each case. We did make decisions pretty quickly in order to get it going. We paid the legal costs and the agents’ commission in every case and the sum did vary, undoubtedly, but I think the average would have been about £200 grant, plus the fees. 10443. There were approximately 2,500 families displaced, you think? —Yes. 10444. And you have been in touch with 217? —Yes. Well, the main committee, the co-ordinating Committee that Father Lowry was involved with, and several others, mainly school teachers who gave their time during the month of August when they were on holidays, they had actual files on 3,200 families. 10445. Were there other committees such as yours dealing with the other 2,000 families? —Yes. 10446. There are still? —Yes, there are still but not to the same extent. 10447. Deputy Nolan.—I too should like to compliment your committee on the excellent work you have done in refugee re-establishment and to thank you personally for the documentation that you have given us which actually, as far as the expenditure of the Grant-in-Aid that you had any dealings with, has made our task very easy. If you have page 48 of that pink book I presume that letter of the 8th October was written by you. That is at the top of the page. It was written to the then Minister for Finance, Charles J Haughey. Would that be written by you at that time? —No, that letter was written by Mr. Tim McHale who was one of the Committee. I think he could have been described as treasurer. He wrote that letter. 10448. You were secretary at that time? —I was never formally appointed secretary but that was certainly Tim McHale’s letter. I did write the other letters. 10449. That letter is from your Committee anyhow? —Yes, it is definitely. 10450. On the bottom of that letter then you will notice that in Charles J. Haughey’s handwriting—that is a photostat of it—you will see: Mr. Fagan,—— who was his secretary at that time I met a deputation from this committe on 8/10/69 and agreed to give them an initial grant of £20,000 to be lodged in the Munster and Leinster Bank, High Street, Belfast. Now, the £100,000, and that is the money we are interested in, that is the only money that you received from Government sources here, that £20,000? —Yes, definitely. 10451. Deputy Treacy.—I was merely concerned to ascertain whether there was any suggestion of repayment in respect of the moneys paid out to all those various people? —Yes, there was. There was a clause on the application form which provided for an undertaking with regard to repayment and in several cases applicants, through their solicitor, did agree to repay the grant or part of it. In, I think, one or two cases we have already received a part repayment but, in the majority of these cases we have not, because the people who were displaced, the cases in which we asked for repayment, were cases where the applicant had owned his previous house, did not have a heavy mortgage on it and, in his compensation claim against the Corporation, was going to be substantially into pocket. There has been quite a delay in getting these compensation claims disposed of so, as yet, we have not found any reflow of moneys into us. 10452. Were many applicants refused assistance? —In relation to the number who benefited I would say no. The trouble is, though, we closed the work of the Committee really about November last year. It has just been a trickle since then. 10453. I take it you had a special committee to choose the most in need? —We had. Through the co-ordinating Relief Committee, who were dealing directly with refugee families. We knew from them who the most deserving cases were. Thank you, Mr. Fitzpatrick, and congratulations on your great work. 10454. Deputy Tunney.—There is not any point in indulging in any superfluity in the matter of questions. It is no harm for me, however, to join with the other members in complimenting you and your Committee on the work which you did and to express my regrets that it has been necessary to bring you before us at all. 10455. Chairman.—Mr. Fitzpatrick, your expenditure here especially seems very well vouched but there are a couple of small points just to comment on, just because the figures are big, the payouts. One is for £2,986—have you got that one? —I have not a copy of that, unfortunately. 10456. I will pass it down to you? —Yes. 10457. And the other is £1,481. You might be able to recall them or you may not. It is just that they are large? —Yes, I don’t recall this one, Mr. Chairman. 10458. Perhaps it might be a number of cases bunched together? —Yes, it could be, because, in some cases, the number of solicitors we were dealing with was small in relation to the number of people. I think that must be the explanation, really. If you look through the names of the solicitors in the last column of the report you will notice that the same names are cropping up quite frequently. If you wish, Mr. Chairman, I could have the pay cheque turned up. I have not got the vouchers with me. 10459 I think there is no need. One last point to be clarified for yourself as well as for everybody else. You mentioned that you, so to speak, entitled yourselves the Refugee Re-establishment Committee and that you were part of or a subsidiary of Trench House Relief Committee. Is that correct? —Yes. 10460. So you were dissociated from what we have been calling here the Belfast Relief Committee, in our discussions? —Yes. 10461. The ones that £70,000 was deflected to through the Baggot Street account? —Yes. 10462. Your £20,000 came directly through the Red Cross directly to a bank in Belfast? —Yes. 10463. You are an entirely different group from the other committee who drew this money through the various devious channels in Baggot Street? —We had no connection whatever with them. The co-ordinating Relief Committee in Trench House—they received £4,000 from the Irish Red Cross. This is heresay evidence as far as I am concerned, Mr. Chairman, but I have no reason to doubt it. Father Lowry, who ran the main centre, told me that they got £4,000, one amount for £2,000 and two separate amounts of £1,000 each. 10464. We have evidence that the Red Cross did give money to the Trench House Committee. I cannot recall at the moment how much it was but it is probably in our records somewhere. Were there many committees working in association with, or in co-operation, with this what you call the Co-ordinating Committee? How many committees did it co-ordinate? —I do not know that there were so many committees. Certainly there were quite a number of people who were involved in relief work of various kinds. 10465. Was the Belfast Relief Committee that we are dealing with here, were they associated with the Trench House Committee, do you know, in any way? —I honestly do not know. I never heard the expression “Belfast Relief Committee” until today. 10466. Deputy Keating.—The Belfast Committee for the Relief of Distress is the term that has been used in the bank. 10467. Chairman.—Several terms have been used. 10468. Deputy Keating.—Many, many terms. 10469. Chairman.—Even in the bank, but it is the Committee for which the money was paid into the Baggot Street account and banked before that in Clones. 10470. Deputy Collins.—You have a list there with a key to names. At any time did F, G, H or J ever come into contact with your Committee? —Yes. G did. He was the only one. 10471. Did he have much contact with you? —He did, intermittently. He was involved with me in an effort to help in three streets where houses had been very badly damaged, Conway Street, Norfolk Street and Cupar Street; they run parallel to each other. 10472. You need not identify them. 10473. Deputy Gibbons.—Do you say that the 2,500 families represented the total of the two communities? —No. Really the 2,500 that I am speaking about were the families displaced in the early stages, in August and September and they would have been Catholic families. It was virtually five per cent of the Catholic population inside the city boundary. 10474. Deputy MacSharry.—On that list you have in front of you one of them is all that had association with your actual committee or with your actual work. Did you know of any of them being involved in what might be termed as the relief of the distressed in relation to handouts of money and so on? —No, I did not. 10475. None of them? —Other than G. 10476. G you said, was involved or did have contact with you in relation to the work you were doing which was rehousing rather than financial assistance as such? —Yes, that is so. 10476a. Did you know him to be involved independently of you? —No. I personally did not. 10476b. None of the people in contact with you in relation to the job you were doing at any time mentioned relief they may have received from anybody on that list? —No. 10477. Chairman.—I would draw your attention particularly to the names in the first part of that list and particularly to the names F, G and H. Do you know those people? —Yes? 10478. Do you know I.? —No, I do not. 10479. Do you know J? —No. 10480. Do you know K? —No. 10481. Do you know C? —I do not. 10482. D? —Yes. 10483. In particular to F, G and H have you any knowledge at all of their parting with any money in Belfast for any Red Cross purposes or relief in the way of food, clothing, or distress of any sort? —Of my own personal knowledge, no, but I am pretty certain I heard G was involved in distributing money for relief. I always took it for granted he had been but he had not directly with our Committee. Thank you very much. You have come a long distance to help us. Mr. Fitzpatrick withdrew. The Committee adjourned at 5 p.m. until 4 p.m. on Tuesday, 30th March, 1971. |
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