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MIONTUAIRISC NA FIANAISE(Minutes of Evidence)Déardaoin, 4 Feabhra, 1971Thursday 4th February, 1971The Committee met at 11 a.m.
DEPUTY P. HOGAN in the chair ORDER OF DÁIL OF 1st DECEMBER, 1970.Mr. E. F. Suttle (An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste) was in attendance in an advisory capacity.The Committee deliberated. Mr. Albert Luykx sworn and examined.5302. Chairman.—You have been in this country for how many years? —Since 1948. 5303. When did you meet Captain Kelly? —I would say about January last year, 1970. 5304. How did you happen to meet him? —I was introduced to him by Neil Blaney. 5305. You subsequently went with him to the Continent? —That is right, on 1st April. 5306. In what capacity? —As interpreter. 5307. I understand from your submission that Captain Kelly and yourself flew over to Brussels and then you went by car to Antwerp? —That is correct. 5308. After that you took a taxi to Hamburg, staying overnight at Dortmund? —That is right. 5309. You knew the purpose of Captain Kelly’s visits to the Continent? —That is right. 5310. And at Hamburg you met Herr Schleuter—you will have to excuse my pronunciation? —It is not my language either, but it is Herr Schleuter. 5311. I understand that arrangements were made with Mr. Schleuter to fly arms from Vienna. Is that correct? —That is correct. 5312. You have no idea what amount of arms or what type of arms it was arranged to fly from Vienna? —It must have been a lot. In tonnage or in number of pieces? 5313. Both, if you can. —As regards tonnage it is very difficult. If my memory is right, there were 400 more ordered there and then so there must have been another maybe 600 ordered before. Mr. Schleuter made this proposition to Captain Kelly that he had that number of arms—I do not know what, sub-machine guns, I guess—at a very attractive price. I do not know percisely how much but only slightly over 100 Marks. They were very cheap according to people who know and as the airplane which would be flying the others over could take these that was the arrangement made. 5314. So the idea was to expand an order already made by throwing in another 400 so as to have a reasonable load to come back with? That is correct. 5315 Was the first order paid for at that stage, do you know? —I guess so although there was a balance due. There was talk of a balance due of about £4,000 for bullet-proof vests and a slight argument arose between Captain Kelly and Mr. Schleuter that they were too dear, too expensive, and Captain Kelly then said he would endeavour to advance something. 5316. What happened after that? —We came back. 5317. But there was the question of the payment? —Oh, yes, to Mr. Schleuter, but there was not only arms but also some ammunition, a fair quantity of ammunition, and the total bill including the air freight would come out near enough to £1,000 and Mr. Schleuter wanted the money and Captain Kelly had none with him so he asked me if I could oblige him for a couple of days —or oblige his assignment—so I gave him my cheque and Captain Kelly promised to refund me immediately we came back. We returned on the Saturday and on the Monday at 11 o’clock I got Captain Kelly’s cheque in the Munster and Leinster Bank, where I had made an appointment, and I lodged the cheque. That was Monday, 6th April. And that was that. So I considered the case closed until after the Bank strike. Here is the date: on 3rd November. I got the cheque back “refer to drawer”, and since then I have been waiting for the money and interest on it. I got a letter from the bank this morning and up to 31st January it is £663 14s. For the next 30 days, accumulative, it is another £66 17s, so by 2nd or 3rd March it is £730 1s to be added to it. And I would like to have it as soon as possible. 5318. Naturally. Could you enlighten me —you might not be able to answer, but would you make a shot at it—have you any idea of the value in money of the first instalment? The two consignments were to go on the one day. The second consignment was added as a bargain and you coughed up your £8,500 cheque. What would be the value of the first consignment? Would it be more than that? Would it be £1,000, £10,000? Have you any idea? —I personally have no experience of it and I have asked Captain Kelly this question more than once. This is only hearsay and he is not quite certain himself but it is, from what I can gather, more like £20,000. I am not certain. That is hearsay. 5319. If that is correct, the total lot would be about £28,000? —Yes. 5320. You were satisfied with Herr Schleuter as a reputable——? —In the beginning, when we arrived in Antwerp, it was a bit awkward to find out really how the different deals had happened and I was filled in during the trip with all the details and we could find out nothing. We did not find anything. I did not trust the thing at all, and I made my opinion known to Captain Kelly. I am an ex-Belgian, as you know, and my father always used to say, “Look, Albert, even the best German has stolen a horse”. So, keeping that in mind, I said we had better go and see this man, so we went. But I have to admit that when we came he appeared to me as a fair, honest-to-God dealer, businessman. His biggest trend in business is the items he manufactures himself, which is anti-riot equipment, riot control equipment, and he showed us this then and I asked him if I could be an agent, because a person would like to become an agent of a firm that is—in my opinion—worth my co-operation. So I thought it was all right, as you asked me the question. 5321. Where does he live? What is his home address? —In Hamburg. 10 Loogestieg. I had his Christmas card at home, but it is probably thrown away by now. Documents Book 1 handed to the witness. 5322. Chairman.—Would you open the book at page 11? —Yes. 5323. The cheque that you got was drawn —you have the cheque with you, I presume? —Yes. 5324. You will see it was drawn on the Anne O’Brien account? —Correct. 5325. I thought you should see that because, if you look at it closely, you will see that the total amount of money that was ever lodged into that account is £6,500. —Yes. 5326. At the time your cheque was drawn on the 6th April, the amount in credit in that account was £949 13s 9d, yet you got a cheque, with only that much in the account, for £8,500. So naturally it was RD. Was any explanation given? Were you told there might be any difficulty in cashing it for a while? —No. 5327. You were given to understand—— —Captain Kelly assured me straight away, and in fact the bank statement showed a credit lodgment on 3rd November. But it came back. There were bank charges and interest since 6th April. 5328. In respect of your cheque on the Continent to Herr Schleuter, that was a cheque—— —That was on the Monday. The cheque came back on the Friday or Thursday, I forget precisely; and on Monday, the 6th, it was debited. It is very funny. The cheque from Hamburg was debited here but a local cheque only came through in November. It is very funny, is it not? 5329. You paid Herr Schleuter by cheque, did you? —Yes. 5330. Drawn on an account here? —It was a question of me helping out the Government. 5331. You have got the cheque back, have you? —Yes. 5332. I presume you have a receipt as well from Herr Schleuter for the cheque? —I would say that Captain Kelly went back with the receipted papers. He took all the papers with him. I had no papers of Herr Schleuter. He came and handed over the cheque. This was to facilitate Captain Kelly who was on a Government assignment. 5333. So if a receipt was given for the cheque by Herr Schleuter it went to Captain Kelly, not you? —Oh, yes. 5334. The only other thing I have now to ask at this stage—we will come back to the second journey later—is whether it would be possible for you to let us see the cheque that you handed to Herr Schleuter, the second cheque, and also your passport? —I have not got it with me. 5335. Perhaps you could send for it? (Witness nodded). 5336. Chairman.—Thank you very much. 5337. Deputy Briscoe.—Good morning, Mr. Luykx. How many visits did you make to the Continent, in total, please? —With whom? 5338. In connection with the arms? —Two. 5339. Do you have a record of what moneys you received from Captain Kelly? —I got £50. 5340. That was the only expense. Did you arrange with him for a fee for the interpreter? —No. 5341. You were just doing it to oblige? —I was honoured to do it. 5342. You had £50, and your air ticket and hotel expenses. He paid for these? —Yes. 5343. In cash? —Yes. I presented the bill and he paid. 5344. You say you have the paid cheque, your own cheque to Herr Schleuter, you have that back, and you are submitting it? —It is debited to my account, so it must be back. 5345. And you are providing it here for us. It is a receipt? —Yes. 5346. On one of these visits you referred to another person by the name—I think we agreed we would use a code, did we not? Mr. Chairman, is Mr. Luykx familiar with Mr. J, who was with you and Captain Kelly on one of these visits? —Yes, he came on the Sunday at lunchtime, I guess, or shortly after lunch to Vienna. 5347. Sunday, what date? —It is probably here (referring to document). No, Tuesday. 5348. Chairman.—17th April? —It must be the 19th April. 5349. Deputy Briscoe.—You were acting as interpreter. Could you tell me what was this man’s function? Was he there buying or purchasing arms? —I doubt that. He came about three-quarters of an hour or so later, and I left because our job was finished. 5350. You did not meet Herr Schleuter? Or did you translate for him? —Schleuter was still there. We were all talking, the four of us together, for a short while; then I left and Herr Schleuter was to leave about an hour after me. 5351. What was Mr. J’s function, do you know? —I could not say, really. (Witness shook his head). I do not know. 5352. You did not translate for him any conversations? —I translated the whole lot. 5353. In what connection, what questions or statements was he making for which you were acting as interpreter? —It is too much. 5354. Perhaps you can recollect later on. We will pass over that one. You mentioned or you were telling our Chairman—I do not know if I heard correctly—that Herr Schleuter suggested you would be his commission agent. Did I hear that? —No. 5355. You asked him or agreed with him? —Yes. 5356. Was this in reference to arms coming in? —No, I warned him, it was for riot control equipment, that there could be later on a supply of general handling equipment for the Army. Then there was one other interesting item, or at least I was interested in it. This was the supply to the Irish Government of fishery protection vessels for which I have sent in quotations at a third of the price that Ireland spent, and for much better fishery vessels. 5357. But I do not think this is the right opportunity to deal with fishery protection vessels? —It is rather a commercial. 5358. You are quite certain that it was not to deal as agent for these arms? —No, it was over and done with. 5359. You say the total amount of money to your knowledge was in the region of £28,000? —I guess so. 5360. You mentioned there was a balance of £4,000 due on bullet-proof vests? —Yes, that is my recollection. 5361. And it was paid in part of the £8,500? —No. 5362. What had been paid already that left a balance of £4,000? —It was about £28,000, I guess. 5363. On bullet-proof vests, on this particular item which you mentioned? —I could not say. 5364. Now, were you there to find out why the arms did not arrived on the 25th March? Was this correct? —Yes. 5365. When were the arms ordered? —I do not know. I guess about a month or five weeks before. If you go back from 1st April they would have been ordered about end of February/March. That is my conclusion. 5366. What was the value of that particular consignment of arms and was this what Herr Schleuter was looking for the balance of his money on? —What is the question? 5367. Let me put it this way. What was the total amount of money for this consignment which was due for delivery on 25th March? —£20,000. 5368. That was the £20,000 consignment? —Yes. 5369. This was the one that you later tried to arrange to come in by air? —Yes. 5370. You got a cheque given to you by Captain Kelly when you returned to Dubin for a sum of £8,500 signed by Ann O’Brien. Did you ask him who Ann O’Brien was? —No. 5371. You might have been curious to know. When you get a cheque for a lot of money you wonder who this person is? —No. We get plenty of cheques for lots of money. I never ask who signed this cheque. I lodged it. 5372. You just took it in good faith? —That is what one does. That is the whole idea of a cheque. 5373. Deputy R. Burke.—On the second trip with Captain Kelly you say in your submission: “I made arrangements with Mr. Schleuter to come to Ireland for a demonstration for the Army on May 4th.” —Yes, I made the arrangements. 5374. Who suggested or who asked you to make the arrangements? —I discussed it with Mr. Schleuter in Vienna. Mr. Schleuter said it would be a very good thing to give a demonstration of his equipment in Dublin so I wrote a letter to the Department of Defence. 5375. You wrote a letter to the Department of Defence? Was it to the Secretariat of the Department? —No, to the Minister. 5376. Suggesting what? —Saying our principal, Mr. Otto Schleuter—I have not got the letter with me—of Messrs. Schleuter and Co. planned to come to Dublin on 4th or 5th May to give a demonstration of his anti-riot equipment and so on and so forth and to please try and endeavour to have somebody to look at it and see the man. 5377. In your submission you say you would have had nothing to do with the whole affair if you had not realised it was above board but you had no doubts because you were introduced to it by a senior Minister, whose name has been given to the Committee, and other Ministers had knowledge of your activities? —Yes. 5378. Which Ministers? —Do you want me to name them? 5379. Please. —Not in rotation but alphabetically the one Minister with a B, you know, Colley, Hillery, Lenihan for certain. That is four. 5380. Could you give the names again, please? —Blaney, Colley, Hillery, Lenihan. 5381. Just to make it clear what is in your submission: I was introduced to it by a senior Minister—— I understand this is Mr. Blaney who was mentioned already— ——and since my participation I had heard and knew that several other Ministers had had full knowledge of my activities. 5382. Deputy E. Collins.—You were introduced by Mr. Blaney to Captain Kelly in January, 1970, and made your first trip to the Continent with him at the beginning of April. Did you have any discussions with him from January to April? —No. I say I met him twice or maybe three times over a glass of beer. 5383. Did you discuss the matter of the importation of arms? —No. 5384. What matters did you discuss? —What matters do you discuss? All kinds of things, nothing in particular. 5385. Did he discuss with you his own position? —Yes, he told me who he was, what he was and what he was doing. 5386. What impression did he give you in his conversations? —As a very honest-to-God good Irishman, one of the best. 5387. Would you elaborate on that please? —A man who will put the good of the community before his own interests. 5388. Did he discuss with you his activities? —Very little. 5389. Could you give us some impression? —There was so much to talk about in those days and I have not much time for talking. Normally we met—the few times we met—about 6 o’clock in hotels, such as in my son-in-law’s hotel, because he knew I went there for a drink before my tea. Then there were two, three or four members of the staff with me so we discussed general things. There was no serious discussion. It took place in the bar. 5390. At no time did he discuss the importation of arms? —No. 5391. Or the possibility of you going to Germany with him? —Well, I go to Germany every month anyhow or every six weeks. 5392. I see. When did he ask you to go to Germany with him? —The notice was very short, maybe a day or two only. I had been on the Continent and I had come back. 5393. When he broached the problem of you going to Germany with him did you discuss the matter on which he was going to Germany? —Yes, in the plane he briefed me entirely. I had seen Captain Kelly around the 1st. I should have brought my diary. I have to rely on my memory. I had been on the Continent for three weeks with my wife, in fact to Echternach, in Luxenbourg, by car and it was when the heavy snow was down in England. A day or two after I came back which again was a couple of days after St. Patrick’s Day—we were in Echternach on St. Patrick’s Day—— 5394. It was around the middle of March? —Near the end of March. Captain Kelly told me about a consignment that was in or was to come in. 5395. That is the one of the 25th March? —Yes. 5396. Did he discuss the non-arrival of these arms with you? —At that moment we expected it to arrive. 5397. After the 25th March? —Yes, which I say must be the last or second last day of March and there and then arrangements were made to go on the 1st. 5398. Did he discuss with you the destination of the arms? —No, but it was more or less apparent that the arms were for helping out the boys in the North. 5399. You did not discuss the destination with him? —No. 5400. Did he discuss with you the source of the moneys to pay for those arms? —Never. In fact about the Grant-in-Aid I only heard about that after the Arms Trial. I had no idea it existed. 5401. You were under the impression that this was a Government activity? —I was certain of it. It was not an impression. 5402. Who told you this? —I guess he would not have asked me unless it was Government business? 5403. This is Mr. Blaney? —Yes. 5404. Can you tell me what he said in relation to this or in relation to Captain Kelly’s mission? —Yes, that it could be that I would be asked to go to the Continent with somebody because of my knowledge of the language and the way they behave and react and so on. Mr. Blaney thought that I, being an ex-Continental and travelling fairly often—— 5405. Did Mr. Blaney tell you the nature of his business on the Continent? —No, not the nature but he told me it would be a secret affair, something not to be placarded around. 5406. In other words, as far as you knew, Mr. Blaney knew why Captain Kelly was going to the Continent? —I do not know what Mr. Blaney knew. That is a bit difficult for me. I can only suppose. You should ask Mr. Blaney. 5407. He said the whole exercise was a secret? —Yes. Having with Army Intelligence, by itself. I think it is to be kept secret. 5408. Did Mr. Blaney discuss Army Intelligence with you? —No. He said Captain Kelly was Army Intelligence. 5409. He asked you to go to the Continent with him on a secret mission? —No. Mr. Blaney did not. He asked me if I could, if need be, help out Captain Kelly if he had to go to the Continent. 5410. How many times did you meet Mr. Blaney from January to March, to April? Did you ever meet him in the company of Captain Kelly? —Many times I met Mr. Blaney from January to March last year. 5411. To April? —To April—that is your question—three times, maybe; four times; I do not know. He lives on the way into town from my home. When I am passing in my car I pull up if I see him. It is so simple. Neil is working in the garden in his shirt sleeves. We talk about the various plants. He is my friend. We have a chat. I ask how is Eve, how Marie is, how the other kids are. This tree is doing bad. This bush is dying. It is a friend. 5412. Did you ever meet him in the company of Captain Kelly, apart from the introduction? —I doubt it. I do not think I did. Only once. 5413. He never discussed the importation of arms with you? —No. 5414. When you went to the Continent, you stayed in Dortmund? —Yes. 5415. Did Captain Kelly tell you that he was to deposit some money at any stage? —No. We arrived in Dortmund. It was dark. It was late. It must have been 7.30 p.m., about, late on the Continent. There were a couple of telephones calls and then I made a call home. Then another call came again and then Captain Kelly rang. That is the way the night was spent. 5416. Did Captain Kelly ask you the name of a bank in Dortmund? —No. We left early the next day. We left real early. 5417. Are you in fact Herr Schleuter’s agent in Ireland now? —I suppose I am because I have not heard of any cancellation of that agency. I have not heard that the agency is cancelled so I suppose I still am. 5418. Did you ever discuss anything with the other Ministers whom you named? —No—except for the pat on the back and saying “We heard you are doing great work for the country. Keep it up, boy, keep it up”. 5419. You met Mr. Colley the then Minister for Industry and Commerce? —Yes, but I only know him very faintly. 5420. Did you discuss the matter with him? —No. 5421. Did he discuss the matter with you? —No. 5421(a) Did he slap you on the back? —No. He did not slap me on the back. I did not say that. That is not his type. 5421(b) He knew that you——? —I come to the conclusion—Let me put it this way. I come in the hotel and I see three Ministers. 5422. What hotel? —Sutton House Hotel. I only go to one hotel. 5423. Were you asked to go up to this hotel? Were you called to this hotel? —No. It is only a couple of hundred yards away from my home. 5424. You just went to the hotel? You were not asked to go to the hotel? —No. I went to the hotel. When you see three Ministers in discussion—— 5425. Who were they? —Mr. Blaney, Mr. Colley and Dr. Hillery. 5426. Mr. Lenihan was not there? —Not at that occasion. I see them in discussion with people from the North— names not mentioned, but you know. 5427. Could you identify them by code? —Ah, no. Do not make me an informer now. We have agreed on one name. You will have to take my word for it. There is no need for—— 5428. Deputy E. Collins.—Can I have the guidance of the Chairman here, please? 5429. Chairman.—Develop it as far as you can—maybe you will get round it— for the present. Mr. Luykx.—When they have the discussions there in the hotel. 5430. Deputy E. Collins.—Very well. The outcome of your arrival on the scene? You were asked to join them? —Yes. I would not do it because I was not hungry. 5431. Who asked you to join them? —Neil. Mr. Blaney. 5432. And what happened? —You see them in discussion about the same thing. 5433. How did you know they were discussing the same thing? —Because the same men from the North had been discussing with me that thing at that distance away from them. I come to the normal conclusion that they all know it. 5434. Would you elaborate a bit more for me, please? Was the person with whom you were discussing, the person you identified here—— —Yes—and others. 5435. Was he in your company or in their company? —In their company. 5436. How do you know they were discussing the importation of arms? —Because the Northerners discussed it first with me. I just came back from the Continent. 5437. This was after your first visit to the Continent. —Yes. 5437(a). And what passed between you and the Ministers—Mr. Colley, Mr. Hillery and Mr. Blaney? —Nothing passed between us. 5438. But you accepted that they knew? —Of course, that they knew that I was in it. Now we can talk easily, after the Arms Trial, and I use the same phrase: nobody at all said to me you had better stop because it is illegal. There were two, three or four prominent Ministers who knew everything, knew the answers to a lot of questions. I did not ask them because they were not in my department, it was not up to me to ask those questions. 5439. When did you meet Mr. Lenihan? —About the same period. 5440. In the same hotel? —Yes. 5441. Did you have discussions with him? Did you discuss the matter at all with him at any stage? —No, only a slap on the back. I did not discuss it with him at any stage. 5442. As far as you were concerned this was Government policy? —Of course, complete Government policy and I had been asked to keep a large element of secrecy in it, which I did. 5443. You were asked by Mr. Blaney? —Yes and by Captain Kelly. 5444. Did you meet any other Ministers on any other occasion? —No, I was not in the habit of meeting other Ministers. 5445. Do you intend taking any steps to recoup the £8,500? —I was hoping to get my money now. In fact—please do not rule me in contempt of court, Mr. Chairman—really a man or a firm that does not honour its cheques should not be talking. It should first honour its own cheques. 5446. When Captain Kelly asked you for the cheque he said you would be refunded immediately you returned to Ireland? Did he indicate who would refund you? Did he indicate at any stage when he paid for the arms that the moneys were coming from Government funds? —I took it it was the Government. 5447. But did he say so? —No, not Government funds, not as such; I do not recall it being said as such. 5448. In view of the fact that you knew there were people from the North involved in this did it not occur to you that the moneys might be coming from the North of Ireland? —No. On the other hand, the people from the North are Irishmen too, you know, the Northern Irish. 5449. It did not occur to you at all, it never occurred to you, that the money might be coming from another source? There is a Government in Northern too. You are aware of that? —Very much aware of it. 5450. If not a de jure Government, certainly a de facto one, and they are operating a police force? —During seven years I went twice a week to Donegal, I went up on Monday and returned on Friday, always travelling through Northern Ireland. 5451. Deputy FitzGerald.—There are just two points I want to put. One is simply an interpretation, which would be very helpful, of the information you have given us about the cost of the arms. I just want to follow it up and make sure I have understood it correctly. First of all there was the bullet-proof vest transaction. An amount had been paid for these and you do not know how much, but there remained £4,000 to be paid? —That is what I heard. I could be wrong, but something like that. 5452. Next there was the order which had been placed and apparently paid for at the time you went, and that consisted of 400 to 600 sub-machine guns and ammunition? —I did not say that. I do not think I said that. I had a feeling, if my memory serves me aright, that there were some rifles, but not many. There were some rifles in it and there were some pistols, and there were sub-machine guns. 5453. You said 400 to 600 were on order. Were they the sub-machine guns? —No. The mixed bag. 5454. The total amount of guns, including some unknown proportion of machine guns? And there was ammunition as well? —Yes. 5455. These were on order and it was your impression that £20,000 had already been paid for them? Is that right? —Yes. 5456. Then there was the offer of additional machine guns at just over 10 Marks each? —No—100 Marks. 5457. You said 10? —You would not get much for 10 Marks. It must have been an error, I think. It was 100 Marks. 5458. I am sorry, I am wrong. My mistake was that I was translating into English money, and it is just over £10. So 400 machine guns at £10 each would be about £5,000. But the cheque was for £8,500? —But there were a quarter of a million bullets. 5459. The additional machine guns involved additional ammunition as well and that amounted to another £3,500 approximately? —Not entirely because there was the air freight. 5460. The air freight for the whole lot came out of this as well? So the £3,500 covered ammunition and air freight for the whole lot, including the £20,000 worth paid for already? —I would not know. You are confusing me. The air freight for the whole lot, you say? Yes. And there were some slight expenses, not very heavy, for packing and the shipping of the stuff to Vienna because it was ex store. But they were very cheap. On the way back I worked out what those bullets cost and if my memory serves me aright they cost only about two-thirds of what I pay here for cartridges to go shooting. They are about 1s a piece and these worked out at about 8 ½ each, so it was really cheap. I do not deal normally in that commodity but, I mean to say, it is a question of value of money. 5461. Indeed. Well, that is very helpful because it gives us a better break-down picture than we had previously, and I am grateful to you. My only other question is about your writing the letter to the Minister for Defence suggesting the demonstration on behalf of Herr Schleuter. I seem to recall that Mr. Gibbons gave evidence at some point—whether in the Dáil or at the trial I am not sure—that this letter was handed to him by Mr. Blaney? —That is right because I did not know Mr. Gibbons, I had never met him, and I was in Neil’s house and said I have written this letter to the Minister for Defence and do you know him? “Of course”, he said, “I will give it to him personally. That will be better than sending it.” 5462. Deputy H. Gibbons.—This cheque for £8,500 you gave to Mr. Schleuter, you said you were meeting Mr. Schleuter for the first time? —That is correct. 5463. It strikes me as unusual in international business that Mr. Schleuter or anybody else in his position would accept a cheque from a person he was meeting for the first time. I wonder, could you explain this? —You really should have asked him, should you not, why he accepted it? Probably because he thought I had an honest face or because we were agents for very prominent German firms, like Hoesch, who employ 65,000 people. 5464. Did Mr. Schleuter put this to you, did he raise the question? —No. 5465. He just took the cheque without question? —He took the cheque. It was a long discussion, for several hours, and by that time I had had time to size him up and he had had time to size me up, I suppose. But there is another point. He still had the arms and the cheque was very quickly presented and found to be all right. 5466. Now there is another point I would like to deal with. On what date did you see those Ministers in the hotel, Mr. Blaney, Mr. Colley and Dr. Hillery? —Now you have me. But it must have been, surely, after 1st April. 5467. This is of some importance. How long after 1st April? The position was you were in some place or other on 17th April? —Oh, it was before then. 5468. Before 17th April? Oh, yes. 5469. Are you sure of that? Oh, yes. 5470. What time did your participation in those activities end? You were on the Continent on 17th April? —The 17th, We came back on the 21st. On the Sunday I went to look after my own business and met the gentlemen in Dusseldorf on the 21st. From the 21st I have not heard anything. 5471. You heard nothing from them further, so your participation in these activities finished on the 21st? —Yes. Until 1st May, when I was pulled into the Bridewell. 5472. You said in your statement here that “Since my participation I had heard anew that several other Ministers had full knowledge of my activities.” This would suggest to me that you did not learn of this fact until your participation had finished, which would be after 21st April? —No, I do not think that. 5473. Well, then, your statement in this document that you submitted to us is wrong, is it? —No, not wrong. 5474. But, Mr. Luykx, you have said “Since my participation”—which you have admitted here ended on 21st April—“I had heard … .” I suppose that means—— —It is my kind of English, probably, that is confusing you, but I mean well. 5475. No, wait a minute now. We cannot let it go at that. Your English is not so deficient that you do not understand what you mean by “since my participation.” That would mean after your participation finished, in these activities? —No. Since originally I had been asked by Neil Blaney. 5476. Deputy R. Burke.—Mr. Chairman, it might be helpful if Mr. Lukyx would explain the use of the word “since” in French. —“Since”—I should have used a different word, should I? 5477. Deputy H. Gibbons.—No. I am just following your statment. —I was going to cross it out, but leave it. “Since my participation…”, is it bad English? I do not know what you are getting at, Deputy. 5478. Mr. Lukyx, reading this to me means that you had finished those activities, which you stated had occurred on 21st April, and you heard anew that several other Ministers had full knowledge of those activities; so, whatever knowledge came to you, according to your statement, followed 21st April? —It does not mean at all what you are saying. 5479. I asked you originally what date you saw those Ministers together in the hotel? —I had seen them more than once in fact but on one particular day—it is very difficult to say the date now; it is almost a year ago—a deputation from the North—— 5480. Wait now. I am sorry, we are getting away from my point. You say you have seen them more than once. It should be much easier to indicate some date of those particular times. —No. 5481. I could understand it if you saw them only once having difficulty about the date, but if you have seen them more than once you should be able to fix some particular date. —I saw them once with this delegation from the North, in the hotel, as I stated before. Date? It is very difficult to put a precise date on this. 5482. Was it before your first trip to Germany? —Deputy Gibbons, may I say one thing? That kind of meeting you only start to recall after, I think, but the trouble before that is that it is daily affairs. 5483. Mr. Luykx, I am not supposed to put words in a witness’s mouth, but cannot you just say “I cannot remember”? I put the question. —I cannot remember the date. 5484. No. Was it before the first trip to Germany? —It must have been after. 5485. Was it before your second trip? —It must have been before, because after the second trip I thought that the whole lot was cancelled, over and finished with. 5486. But why would it follow because the thing was cancelled you thought it was before the second trip? What would be the relationship between the two events that would fix it in your mind to that extent? —As far as my memory goes, Captain Kelly cancelled the whole arms deal there and then in Vienna and transferred the arms back to Mr. Schleuter. I think that is in my statement somewhere, that they fell out almost. That is in my statement to the police. 5487. Yes, that is another thing, but you said that you were seeing those Ministers together on a few occasions. —Not together with the people of Northern Ireland. 5488. Wait, now, no. This is not what you are asked. I asked on what date you saw those Ministers together in your hotel. You stated you saw them on a few occasions. You have said none of those occasions preceded your first visit to Germany, so that we have this date fixed. Your first visit to Germany is 1st April. —Mind you, it could precede the first visit to Germany. 5489. But, in fairness to you, may I take it you just do not remember? —No; not the date. 5490. Is the position that you do not remember any date you saw them in the hotel? —I do not think I have to answer that. (The witness consulted his legal adviser.) 5491. Deputy H. Gibbons.—This is something that your legal adviser could not have knowledge of. —No, I asked only if I have to answer that. I do not think I have to, Deputy. 5492. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that this is very vital, the dates that he saw the Ministers in the hotel, because—well, I will follow up the thing and perhaps come back to this. You have said, Mr. Luykx, that your participation finished on 21st April? —Yes. 5493. And you have stated in your statement, on which I take it you consulted with your legal adviser before you submitted it—is that right? —He read it and he said there was nothing wrong with it but he did not correct it. 5494. If you consulted with him I would be surprised if he did not ensure that any person reading this would put the sense that I have put on it. I think it would solve your problems if I put it to you this way: that following 21st April, probably the last week of April or perhaps the first week of May, it came to your notice that other Ministers knew about those happenings, of importations? —No, thanks very much, that does not go. 5495. But that is the conclusion I take out of your statement. —That is up to you, but that is not it. 5496. That at this stage they would probably have learned of it through their official sources? —No, by no means. There is even more. The Committee went into Private Session at 1.10 p.m. and resumed Public Session at 1.15 p.m. Examination of Mr. Albert Luykx continued. 5497. Deputy H. Gibbons.—We have not succeeded in establishing dates for those meetings. To come back to this statement that on one occasion you saw three Ministers talking together. How did you know what they were talking about? —I knew it because they were talking with a deputation from the North. May I—— 5498. Wait now. You could not know what they were talking about unless you heard them talking. Is this not correct? —Oh, I heard part of it. 5499. What did you hear? —Enough to know they were talking about that. 5500. Could you tell me some of the phrases you heard? —It is very difficult, Deputy Gibbons. When a man has been talking to you and this was some time ago, about this item, and at some distance—he talks to a Minister and you hear a word or two words. You know he is talking about the same thing. 5501. Would you tell us what were the word or two words you heard? —Arms and guns. 5502. And nothing else? —That is enough. 5503. Wait now, that is not what I asked. Did you hear anything else? —I had no further interest in it. My job was so far finished. You hear so many things. 5504. At which of the meetings was it that you saw this talk? Was it the first, second, third or fourth meeting that there was this group of Ministers which you saw? —I have stated that I saw these Ministers and a deputation from the North together in the hotel. But may I intimate here, you mention, by the way, that I express myself in my statement—I probably should have said, since the beginning of my participation. It would be more complete. 5505. The only comment I would have to make on that is this: that you have admitted that you consulted your legal adviser before you submitted this document, and that suggests to me that a lot of care went into the drafting of it. That is a very important point, and should be correct at this stage. —In fact, Deputy Gibbons, before we came I got a letter from the Clerk of the Committee, dated 22nd, I got it on the 23rd, and on the 23rd I typed it out myself at a typewriter. It was maybe Monday or Tuesday, I think Saturday was the 23rd, and I sent a copy to Gore Grimes for him to read it. 5506. You also stated, “I came to the conclusion”. Now, you came to what conclusion? What conclusion did you come to in the hotel when you saw the Ministers, and on what basis did you come to this conclusion? —To the conclusion? Where is that? 5507. You stated it here this morning. —Oh, sorry. I do not remember your question. 5508. You stated, “I came to the conclusion”, that you knew about this. On what did you base your conclusion? —On what I have said before. 5509. What was this then? —I was introduced to it all by a senior Minister. 5510. I am talking about the occasion of the Ministers in the hotel. —I came to the conclusion. 5511. What conclusion exactly did you come to? —Definitely, it came to my mind it was not unofficial business. 5512. Could you state that again? —No doubt came in my mind that it was not unofficial business. 5513. I put it to you that it is not unusual for Ministers to talk to each other. There are umpteen other things they could be talking about. Did this not strike you? —Is that a question? 5514. Yes, it is. —Yes. 5515. They could be talking about many other things. —Yes. 5516. And you reached that conclusion on hearing two words ‘arms’ and ‘guns’? —Yes. 5517. Have you met Dr. Hillery? —Yes. 5518. And have you met Mr. Lenihan? —Yes. 5519. Now you said that you were told it was complete government policy? —Yes. 5520. Who told you it was complete government policy? —No one said that it was complete government policy, it was a government assignment. 5521. Mr. Lukyx, you—— —Mr. Blaney told me he would be prepared to assist in the Government assignment. 5522. And those are the words Mr. Blaney used? —Those are the words Mr. Blaney used. 5523. Deputy H. Gibbons.—That is all, Mr. Chairman. 5524. Deputy MacSharry.—Mr. Luykx, Mr. J. visited you while you were engaged in this operation on the Continent? —Yes. 5525. Prior to his arrival there was a discussion on the £4,000 that was due? —Yes. 5526. For the first consignment of arms? —Yes. 5527. You were acting as interpreter when he arrived? —Yes. 5528. Did he have the £4,000 with him? —No, at that stage no money changed hands in my presence. 5529. And is it true to say Herr Schleuter was allowing the shipment to go ahead complete and still not be fully paid the £4,000. —May I make a completion of what I said, not really a correction? The feeling I still have is this: that ‘X’ number of bullet-proof vests had been shipped and, of course, only a portion had arrived on the vessel; and that a number of bullet-proof vests had been ordered—but they were not yet shipped. Now, by the way I understood this, on the total order of bullet-proof vests there was £4,000 due. I could not really say precisely how much was due on what had been shipped. 5530. I understand. Nevertheless, the arms dealer was agreeing to allow the full shipment to go ahead and he was saying that it was due, if you like, £4,000. —I doubt it very much. 5331. It came up in discussions with the interpreter? —Yes, because some of the bullet-proof vests were not ready, and they were not in Vienna. I saw none in Vienna. 5532. Some had to be shipped? —Yes, I do not know how many; an ‘X’ number were shipped under the order but some were not ready then. Nevertheless on the order there was £4,000 due. 5533. We will bring you to your meeting. You say you had an appointment with Captain Kelly I think on 6th April, the Monday after you came home from the Continent and that the appointment was at the Munster and Leinster Baggot Street bank? —No, in Grafton Street. 5534. Your own bank? —Yes. 5535. That was on 6th April? —Yes, Monday 6th April. 5536. There was no question of you clearing the cheque or anything of that type? —I got the cheque, filled out the lodgment and I lodged it there and then. 5537. In your own bank? —Yes. 5538. On the second visit to the Continent the whole business you said here, I think, was called off? —Yes. I may be wrong but that is the feeling I had and from what I heard. Schleuter speaks some English. If an Irishman speaks very fast he cannot understand it and then you have to step in but there was a kind of unhappy feeling between Schleuter and Captain Kelly and I think I heard that the whole consignment was transferred back to Mr. Schleuter. 5539. What about the money that had been paid to Mr. Schleuter? Was there nothing about that at all? You were going to come home giving back the arms and leave the money behind. Is that the position? —No. From what I heard and what I had to translate one of the points was that to have arms or to possess arms in Vienna you must have a licence to deal in arms. It sounds very complicated and probably is. Schleuter had a licence. If those arms had been actually transferred into the possession say of Captain Kelly the German or Austrian authorities would have come and said “Captain Kelly, show me your licence to deal in arms,” he would have committed an illgeal offence. As the arms could not be shipped or flown to Ireland they had to be transferred back into Schleuter’s possession. 5540. You gave us the impression that it was as a result of a dispute between Captain Kelly and Mr. Schleuter? —That is No. 1 and there was a dispute about flying, originally there was no plane, and then Captain Squire was to come and he did not come. The Saturday was a very confusing day in Vienna. 5541. Is it not true to say that the whole operation was cancelled because of difficulty in customs clearance on this side? Could you answer that? Have you any knowledge of that? —Not knowledge, only afterwards. 5542. When afterwards? When you were in Vienna or here? —Here. 5543. That is why the thing was cancelled? —Yes, that is why it was cancelled. 5544. Not in Vienna? You did not know that in Vienna? —No. 5545. Nevertheless there was this dispute in Vienna and you had the impression because of what you heard there that the operation was cancelled? You had knowledge of this when you were in Vienna? —Not in Vienna, afterwards. When Mr. J arrived, as I said before, within an hour I guess I left, and they were still talking. 5546. You left with the impression that the thing was cancelled? —Yes. 5547. You think it was as a result of difficulties in customs clearance here? —Yes. 5548. Is it not true to say also in relation to previous evidence that numerous Ministers are regular visitors to your hotel? —Yes. It is not my hotel. It is my son-in-law’s hotel. 5549. Yes, but you have seen groups of various Ministers in this hotel over the past number of years? —Yes. That is why I made that correction to Deputy Gibbons. 5550. Deputy Nolan.—The Chairman asked you earlier on about this refer to drawer cheque drawn on the Anne O’Brien account. Have you the cheque with you there? —I have it. 5551. Would you tell me the number on the top left-hand corner of that cheque? —It is 925412. 5552. Thank you. On the bottom of that cheque is returned RD to Grafton Street? —On the top it is refer to drawer. 5553. Could I see it, please? I will return it. —Yes. (Witness hands up document.) 5554. You know the most important cheque is the one you wrote to Herr Schleuter for £8,500. I presume that this was debited to your account in the Munster and Leinster Bank? Have you got that cheque with you? —No. I have made a note here to submit two items. 5555. Have you got a bank statement showing that this cheque was debited to your account? —I have got that in the office. I have not got it with me. 5556. It is really more important to us that your account has been debited with this £8,500 than the fact that this cheque has been returned to drawer. —I will submit my bank account. 5557. Please do that. You will therefore give your bank statement and passport? —For keeps? 5558. Chairman.—No. —They have done that to me before. 5559. Deputy Nolan.—And the paid cheque. When you were answering the Chairman you had worked out the interest to £730? —I had worked it out. I rang Mr. Kevin Crooke in the bank this morning and said: “Kevin, will you ever work that out?” I said: “I will come back to you within five minutes.” He rang me and I wrote it down. 5560. We realise that the paid cheque, that is the cheque that has been debited to your account that you made payable to Herr Schleuter is the most important document as far as this Committee is concerned and also the bank statement so it is important that we have them? —Yes, I have a note about those. I will send them. 5561. I accept that. You mentioned also that Mr. J was with you on one of your trips to Europe. He accompanied yourself and Captain Kelly. Why was Mr. J with you? —He only arrived on the Sunday. 5562. Well, in the course of conversation with Captain Kelly in the hotel and yourself and Mr. J you knew that Mr. J was there for some purpose. Why? —When we arrived at Vienna Airport— it was a Sunday—the first thing I did was book my ticket—we had an open ticket— for Dusseldorf for that day. While I was standing at this counter and Schleuter was standing at that counter waiting for his ticket to return to Hamburg, Mr. J arrived and was met by Captain Kelly and was there for half an hour or twenty minutes. 5563. You do not know why he was there? —I would say for trouble and there was trouble from some angle. We have heard so much now about this thing and it is difficult to distinguish between what actually I remember of what happened then and what I know now from hearsay. I really paid no special attention to it. Originally it was planned that we should travel back with John Squire on the plane—and save the return fare, in other words. So that Mr. J arrived. I sent for something to drink. But how far I can say that now, that I experienced it then—afterwards it is very difficult to draw the line. 5564. It was Herr Schleuter. He told you he was giving a demonstration to the Army here of his arms. You said you wrote a letter to the Department of Defence which you gave to Mr. Blaney. Mr. Blaney said he would transmit that letter to the Deparment. Did you get an acknowledgment of that letter? —No. In fact, I telephoned on the Monday, the 4th. I got a telegram from Herr Schleuter on the Sunday and he could not come and it was cancelled to a later day. On the Monday, I rang the Army. In fact, the diary has a whole long note. I rang different Departments but ultimately I got through to the right man—could it be Hickey, or something; I forget—to give him a message about cancellation and there I heard—well—we would not have seen him, anyhow. I made a remark. I said: “Well, is that not a bit odd, seeing that you did want to see him?” As no reply came, I took it the demonstration was on. If I write to you and say I am coming next Sunday to do this or that, and you do not write back, I accept you are in agreement with me. It is not business. 5565. You have no record at all that you got a letter in acknowledgment of this? There is no record at all of this sort of demonstration by Herr Schleuter to the Irish Army? There is no record anywhere that you know of? —The Army did not reply to me. I got no reply. 5566. Deputy Treacy.—You said you were asked by Deputy Blaney, the then Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, to accompany Captain Kelly in the capacity of interpreter on what you believed to be an official Government assignment on the 1st April last year? —Yes. 5567. The purpose of this visit I understand was to investigate an arms shipment which had failed to arrive in Dublin? —That is correct. 5568. It failed to arrive in Dublin from Antwerp on March 25th? —Yes. 5569. You duly went to Antwerp and you made certain investigations there? —That is right. 5570. You had no success, either you or Captain Kelly? —That is right. 5571. You had no success in tracing the arms? —That is right. 5572. Would you please tell us as best you can from memory what investigations you carried out at Antwerp to track down the missing arms? —We went to the Agence Maritime. There, they directed us to Pakhoed over telephone. Everywhere we went we met a blank wall, just as if there had been no arms at all. 5573. You and Captain Kelly chose Antwerp in particular to track down the arms at that source? —The ship was to leave from Hamburg. The bills of lading were from Hamburg. That is where we had to start, really. 5574. Whom did you meet in Antwerp? What success were you expecting to meet with in Antwerp in respect of tracing the arms? —Captain Kelly, at least wanted to see the arms that were supposed to have arrived or to see the cases or the consignment that should have come and which did not come. 5575. You decided to get in touch with Herr Schlueter? —That is right. 5576. You telephoned him? —That is right. 5577. Was he able to throw any light on the subject? —No. He explained to us this—and I think he is right—that the arms, the crates of arms, were loaded on the boat and that the stevedore checked the bills of lading with the consignment going into the boat. Then the bills of lading are submitted to the captain for signature. The captain saw this consignment of arms, ammunition, cartridges, what have you, and he said in effect: “Where is the licence of that firm? Has that firm a licence?” “No, there is no import licence”. We did not apply for one: we did not want an import licence. The captain ordered to take the cases off: “I am not going to arrive in Dublin and having to take those crates back to Antwerp and unload them again”. That was Mr. Schleuter’s case. Then we asked him: “Where are the crates” and he said: “They are on their way to Trieste”. We said: “Why Trieste”? Then it was plain to me that this was a secret opreation and if Westminster would know that the Irish Government was importing arms, and so on; there was even some agreement mentioned—I forget which one. Therefore, I understand it quite well. There was one thing. I did not like the consignment to travel to Trieste, all the way to the middle of Europe and then around the Adriatic. This would only add to the expenses. So Captain Kelly agreed. I was not only the interpreter at the moment. That was the way and that night, before we were in Hamburg, we received a couple of telephone calls in the hotel. In fact, I heard a lot. I had to telephone home to my house and, while I was speaking to my wife, I asked my son to ring Neil Blaney. Blaney would ring back. We could not get through in the meantime. The first thing that Herr Schleuter said when we arrived there was that there was a couple of soldiers, and so on; in the captain’s eyes and in my eyes things appeared serious. We realised the necessity to fly in the stuff and to stop or find the railway wagon travelling to Trieste and divert it to Vienna. 5578. Would you agree that Herr Schleuter, while entering into a contract seemingly with Captain Kelly for a quite substantial amount of money was unable to exercise any worthwhile effective control over this consignment when it strayed from Antwerp to Trieste? —It did not stray; it was sent to Trieste on the instructions of Herr Schleuter. I asked him, why Trieste? He came up with all kinds of explanations but there was still a kind of doubtful patch in the whole story. 5579. To your knowledge did Herr Schleuter make any endeavour to contact Captain Kelly or anyone on the Irish side when he ran into difficulty with the authorities in Antwerp in respect of the export licence? —He may have. 5580. Since this was regarded by you and perhaps by Captain Kelly and Mr. Blaney as an official consignment, did it not strike you as strange that the Irish Embassy or some such people had not been consulted in order to rectify any difficulties in relation to the consignment? —It is probably very simple now to say those things but at the time it looked to me very much above board considering the element of secrecy about the whole operation. I was probably stupid, but I never would have doubted the word of a serious Minister. 5581. Can I go on to the discussion you had with Herr Schleuter, you and Captain Kelly had? Seemingly you were very quickly able to arrange for a further consignment of arms which you intended to fly over? —No. We arrived there late morning, say, and we left there at about six or seven. First of all the meeting was in an atmosphere of great urgency for weapons and ammunition. In fact I think it was there that I heard for the first time the expression “untraceable arms”. Herr Schleuter first arranged with some man—would his name be Oldbrook, something like that?— for chartering a plane. The plane was capable of carrying X tons, I forget the precise figure, and the plane would only travel loaded, for a certain lump sum. Then Herr Schleuter suggested—and so on; it followed as a normal development. 5582. And here you ran into difficulty with the consignment by ship from Antwerp and by air from Vienna? What went wrong the second time? —Number one, I thought that John Squire had broken his word. He was to go on Saturday or Sunday to Vienna and he was to get the final word and permission before going, and instead of John Sqiure Mr. J arrived without a chartered plane. So I said, there is something wrong; what is it? 5583. In the matter of Mr. J, since you referred to him, and the whole matter of financing this venture, was it your belief that the funds for the purchase of the arms came from purely Government sources? —I only heard about the Grant-in-Aid of £100,000 pretty recently. 5584. Had you any reason to think or believe that Mr. J might have funds of his own? —No. We supply stuff to the Board of Works. I know the Board of Works is the Government or State. I never ask how I am paid, I consider it a detail, I never comment on it. I was not worried about it at the time. 5585. Could I ask, in the matter of Herr Schleuter himself, is he a recognised arms dealer? —Oh, yes. 5586. I take it he is recognised by the German Government as such? —Yes. 5587. What is his standing in Europe as an arms dealer? —I have made slight inquiries, not very thorough, and have just found out that he is an arms dealer of high standing. Of course, he is a businessman, as we all try to be. 5588. In respect of his business attributes, it is clear from the evidence we have and from your own statements in the matter that some £28,000 of Irish money—— —Of Irish money, yes—— 5589. £28,000 of Irish taxpayers’ money was handed over to Herr Schleuter for various arms consignments which never arrived in this country. With the exception of a small consignment of bullet-proof vests, none of the arms arrived here? —No. 5590. Perhaps it is not a fair question but is there any way, in your opinion, of retrieving that kind of money for goods which were not in fact delivered? —I was hoping that you were going to ask that question because I would like to have the assignment. I read in the papers that Mr. Murray, I think it was, said we had better forget about the money as it would cost more to retrieve it than it has cost so far, but if the Irish Government would give me the assignment, but in black and white, to try and retrieve it, I will gladly do it. 5591. You are, in fact, the Irish agent of Mr. Schleuter? Yes, I am, and I could probably do it. 5592. It is hardly likely that there is a prospect of getting the return of that money? —I think there is and if you do not go after it, it will be a pity. 5593. Can you clear my mind on a certain matter. Deputy MacSharry, I think, and you were inclined to agree that the abortive arms landing here was due to customs difficulties at this side whereas earlier you stated that your feeling was that Captain Kelly and Herr Schleuter had in fact fallen out over this transaction. They had a serious disagreement? —They had, but it is very difficult to distinguish, to draw the line, between what I knew then and what I know now. It is all very confused. It is a fact that Herr Schleuter and Captain Kelly had an argument over quantities, over qualities and a bit over bullet-proof vests, and the fact that Herr Schleuter’s plane had not come, and the Saturday night, I think it was, Captain Kelly telephoned Dublin. As a result the next day, after I came back from Mass, Captain Kelly said to me—I had inquired at the hotel for flights—“Mr. J is arriving” and I said “Then we can go a bit earlier.”—I had booked on the telephone, but I had to produce my ticket— because Captain Kelly did not want me any more, so I could go. 5594. In respect of the cheque, Mr. Luykx, which you are naturally very concerned about—— —Very. 5595. I understand that fully. Having regard to the rather large amount of money that was changing hands and the fact that Captain Kelly, to your knowledge, on occasions when he visited the Continent carried with him up to £10,000, did it not strike you as very strange that he should have to ask you for some money, to facilitate him with a cheque of £8,500 on this occasion? —Look, Deputy Treacy, look at it from this standpoint where I am sitting now. You will appreciate that I would never have given Captain Kelly a cheque for £8,500—or even you—unless I was dead certain that—— 5596. But to follow that point—— —But it was a good buy, you know. 5597. It was a bargain you were offered at the time? —Yes. 5598. I take it he had not sufficient money? —He had only some cash with him. 5599. You facilitated him with a cheque for £8,500? The purpose of this trip was not to go and buy more arms. He explained to me. It was just to go and find out what had happened to the other lot. 5600. Could I, finally, ask you if you would be kind enough to elaborate on this question of the feelings you had about the transaction then and now? In the last paragraph of your statement you say: I would, of course, never have given my cheque for £8,500 to Captain Kelly and of course I never would have had anything to do with the whole affair if I had—— I think that must be “known”? ——that everything was not above board. Would you like to elaborate on that now, Sir? —Well, you see, the whole affair I still think, I am persuaded of this and assure all of you—was unofficial Government business they should not have done but that it had to be kept secret for obvious reasons. They should have gone to a fellow like me and said “Look, we want that, and that, and that. Go and get it”. It was not well handled. Does that answer your question? 5601. Reasonably so, Mr. Luykx. I observe, sir, that when you were in difficulty in tracking down the shipment of arms, in Antwerp in particular, the man whom you chose to contact, or Captain Kelly chose to contact, was Neil Blaney, the then Minister for Agriculture. Is there any significance in that? May I put it to you that Mr. Blaney was the man whom you felt a particular responsibility to in this matter? —No. I think I have heard part of Captain Kelly’s statement and I would not say it is not right but it is probably not fully right. It was like this. We had booked a call, both of us had booked a call. Captain Kelly’s call came through first. Sometimes you have to wait up to two hours; it is very difficult. His call came through first, and the news was not good. It was really bad. And I said “Where the hell is my call?” We went to complain to Reception over the delay. I had to get on to Dusseldorf and Dusseldorf to London. You know the way you have to go about it. To cut a long story short, I got my call through, or it was coming through, and Captain Kelly was kind-of making a decision whom he should contact, Colonel Hefferon or Mr. Gibbons, or somebody, but he wanted to have confirmation from somebody. My call came through on the phone and I said “Look, Captain Kelly, we have two telephones in the house. Do you want me to get Donal to telephone Neil Blaney?” As a result of this Neil Blaney rang him. 5602. You did specifically ask for Neil Blaney? —Yes, because Donal, my son, the only man he knew was Neil Blaney. 5603. One last question: there does seem to be some ambiguity in the minds of myself and my colleagues as to the precise date and the personalities who were at Sutton House on the occasion to which you refer— the Ministers to which you refer. Can I put it this way: that there is no ambiguity in your mind over at least the fact that the meeting of Ministers referred to was subsequent to the visit to Europe? —I am not dead certain about this at all. I am not sure. It could have been before. 5604. Having regard to the importance of this matter, may I put it, if the Chair so agrees, that Mr. Luykx ought to be afforded an opportunity of verifying this important matter and at a later stage, perhaps, coming back? 5605. Chairman.—You mean consult his diaries? He may have something in his diaries. He can consult anything he may have. —I do recall one thing: that on that date I came home myself either from the Continent or from the country, and that is the only recollection that I have. 5606. Deputy Tunney.—Could you tell me, please, Mr. Luykx, when was the company, Welux, registered? —I do not remember. Welux Limited, and prior to that you had Welux and Co. I cannot tell you, Deputy Tunney, when Welux and Co. was registered. I think it is a very irrelevant question. 5607. I do not. —All right. I will answer it. It was registered a couple of days after I arrived in Ireland in 1948. 5608. That is all I wanted to know. —May I say the rest, too? You have asked me the question; let me finish it. In the beginning when I came to Ireland everybody called me “Lux” and when my father died—he was William—I said “I have to register some business name, because my name they could not pronounce at all, so I registered “Welux and Co.”, hoping for the “Co.” 5609. I understood you to say that you knew nothing about the mission until you were going out in the plane with Captain Kelly? —The first facts; yes. 5610. And subsequently you said that when you arrived Herr Schleuter told you this consignment was in the name of Welux, and that there was something illegal about the licence? —Deputy Tunney, Captain Kelly had informed me around 25th March about a consignment of arms coming into Dublin, consigned to Welux. 5611. I am sorry. I thought you said earlier on that—— —No. That is not correct. But he filled me in completely on that: nothing had come, why nothing had come. Did I say that in my statement? 5612. No, earlier in evidence, that when you were asked whether or not Mr. Blaney knew why you were going you said you did not know until Captain Kelly, I think, told you going out in the plane that it was in connection with arms? —That is not correct. 5613. It is not correct? O.K. I thought the fact that the conflict was there—. When you were selected for this did you think it was because of your knowledge of the German language or your knowledge of this particular trade, shall we call it? —Deputy Tunney, first I think because of my knowledge of the German language, and probably also of business experience. But there may be another reason. A previous main supplier of arms to the Army was an ex-Belgian also, a great friend of mine Louis Warnints. You will probably remember him walking through Dublin. He was a very nice man. He died and I was wondering who would step in there, and I thought “This is an indication that there is no ‘jam’ in it.” 5614. But otherwise you would not have thought it anything unusual if you had been asked to engage in what you understood was a secret mission? —No. 5615. After Monday the 5th, after that time, did you mention to anybody other than Captain Kelly that you had paid or Captain Kelly had requested you to pay £8,500 to Herr Schleuter? —What do you mean? 5616. In the circumstances that you felt this was a Government assignment that you were on, you did not mention to anyone other than Captain Kelly that you had paid this money? —No, Captain Kelly knew it. He was present, you know. 5617. Yes, I know it. But you did not feel—— —I paid the cheque on Thursday, and I got a cheque back on Monday. In my eyes everything was clear. 5618. I am having regard to the fact that you are a business man who was being concerned with money. When you discovered the arms would not be coming in, did you mention to any of the people whose blessing you think you had for this assignment that they owed you £8,500? —I did not know it. I had got this cheque on the 6th April, and I lodged it on the 6th April. So it was really not even a day in it, you know. It was only in November that this cheque bounced, you see. I could not have known it. 5619. But in the circumstances, according to your evidence and what you said there was only one man who sort of introduced you to the whole operation, and that one man was Captain Kelly. —Yes. 5620. He was the only man who had knowledge of what you were doing? —Yes. 5621. He was a man—I think you said earlier on your father had told you to be careful of the Germans. I do not know how you treat the Irish—but you had only met him on one or two occasions? —Yes. 5622. And notwithstanding that you were quite happy to have paid out on his request a sum of £8,500? —Yes. I was certain he was the man in authority from the Irish Government to look after this deal. 5623. Who told you he had the authority of the Irish Government? —I never asked anybody, really. So, no one has told me. But I had the definite impression that he had. I did not inquire if he had. Perhaps I should have got it on paper, in back and white. That is why I mentioned it. If it is in black and white—— 5624. I appreciate that we are trying to conclude. I am not concerned about the actual days on which you met these people in the hotel, but one matter I would be concerned about is whether or not you understood from them, if the thing was posed to you out there—if it had been mentioned, OK, you could claim they knew. But did any of them indicate to you that what you had been engaged on was at the request of the Government? —No. 5625. Thank you. 5626. Chairman.—We are going to discontinue here. This will give you a chance to get the documents we mentioned. —Let me know if you want me. Mr. Luykx withdrew. The Committee adjourned at 2.5 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 9th February, 1971. |
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