Committee Reports > List of Committees > Dáil > 1970 > Committee of Public Accounts > Interim and Final Report - Appropriation Accounts 1967 - 1968

MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA

(Minutes of Evidence)

Déardaoin 26 Feabhra 1970

Thursday 26th February 1970

The Committee met at 11 a.m.

Mr. E. F. Suttle (An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste) and Mr. P. S. Mac Guill and Mr. J. R. Whitty (An Roinn Airgeadais) called and examined.

VOTE 26—LOCAL GOVERNMENT.

Mr. M. Lawless called and examined.

519. Chairman.—Paragraph 30 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Subhead J.—National Building Advisory Council (Grant-in-Aid)

30. The functions of the National Building Advisory Council which went into voluntary liquidation on 23 May 1968 have been taken over by An Foras Forbartha, Teoranta. The balance of cash in the hands of the Liquidator on completion of the winding up was paid over to the Department of Finance and the other assets of the Council, office furniture and equipment, library, etc., were transferred to An Foras Forbartha. The accounts of the Council up to 23 May 1968 have been audited under my direction and I have been furnished with a copy of the Liquidator’s final account.”

—Have you anything to add, Mr. Suttle?

Mr. Suttle.—This paragraph is for information. The liquidator’s cash balance amounted to £62 and has been brought to account as miscellaneous revenue.

520. Deputy E. Collins.—Was it transferred to the liquidator?

Mr. Lawless.—The liquidator is in a very odd position in that he is responsible to nobody but the courts. Liquidation is a legal process and he is responsible to nobody. Nobody examines the accounts unless the courts examine them.

Mr. Suttle.—I cannot interfere.

Deputy P. J. Lenihan.—You are an agent of the courts.

Mr. Suttle.—No. While there are things I might query I wash my hands of them.

Deputy P. J. Lenihan.—As it should be.

521. Deputy E. Collins.—It is a pity the accounts had to be liquidated rather than taken over by An Foras Forbartha?

Mr. Suttle.—In effect that is what has happened.

Mr. Lawless.—Most people who were members of the building advisory council are now directors of An Foras Forbartha. I think there are seven in all.

522. Deputy E. Collins.—Was the property furniture?

Mr. Lawless.—Yes, it was transferred to An Foras Forbartha. The former chief executive officer of the Building Advisory Council is now chief technical officer of An Foras Forbartha.

Deputy P. J. Lenihan.—It is a change of name?

Mr. Suttle.—It is an an amalgamation of two bodies with a certain amount of overlapping in their work.

523. Chairman.—What did this body do?

Mr. Lawless.—They published two reports, about 1967 I think it was, which dealt with the position of the building industry as it then was. They made some recommendations in regard to dealing with the question of restricting the building industry as far as possible to building houses and putting a restraint on builders to do a certain type of building. As far as I remember it was about 1967 that the reports were issued.

524. Deputy Treacy.—Why was it found necessary to liquidate the National Building Advisory Council?

—The Government issued a White Paper about 1967 or 1968 in which they said there were too many bodies involved in the building industry. The idea was that they should be reduced and that there should be a rationalisation in so far as supervision of the building industry was concerned. Steps were then taken to amalgamate both bodies.

Deputy P. J. Lenihan.—They were overlapping to a considerable extent?——

—Yes.

525. Deputy Treacy.—May I take it that this advisory aspect of the National Building Advisory Council is a feature of An Foras Forbartha, that they are giving information?

—Yes. One of the functions of An Foras Forbartha is to furnish advice to the Minister. In fact, they have furnished quite a lot of advice to the Minister on subjects ranging from planning, housing and road traffic. The Deputy might recall that the Minister relied on the advice of An Foras Forbartha when sanctioning the 60 mile an hour speed limit last year.

526.—I am well aware of the good work An Foras Forbartha do. I was concerned about the actual advice to the building industry as such?

—There are people involved in the building industry on An Foras Forbartha. I have the constitution of An Foras Forbartha here.

527. Deputy Dr. Gibbons.—Deputy Treacy has covered my question in part. Could a private company or an individual seek advice from An Foras Forbartha?

—I am sure they could. An Foras Forbartha runs courses and keeps in close touch with the building industry. It runs innumerable seminars and courses which are of benefit to the building industry and, in fact, the Department give technical assistance grants to the building industry for attendance at these and other courses.

528. Deputy Treacy.—It is doing excellent work. Anything we say here should not be construed as denigrating the work of An Foras Forbartha in any way?

—I have a list of the board of directors which I could hand to the secretary afterwards.*

529. Chairman.—Paragraph 31 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads as follows:

“Subhead N.—Technical Assistance

31. This subhead provides for a scheme of grants of up to one half of the cost of activities directed to the improvement of efficiency in the building industry. From May 1968 grants have been made available for attendance at training courses, study visits abroad and consultancy services. As indicated in the explanation given in the account, the response by the industry was slower in the initial stages than anticipated and grants to a total of only £5,501 were made from the provision of £30,000.”

Have you anything to add Mr. Suttle?

Mr. Suttle.—This paragraph gives information as to the scheme of grants towards the cost of technical assistance projects introduced by the Department in the course of the year.

530. Chairman.—That is what we have just been talking about?

Mr. Lawless.—Yes. Most of the courses for which grants are given are organised by An Foras Forbartha and held in various centres throughout the country. One is being held next week at Cork. Usually, the fees for these courses come to about £25. I should like to explain that the grants are not confined solely to An Foras Forbartha activities. Assistance is being given to eligible personnel attending courses organised by other bodies such as the Irish Management Institute, the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors and some English bodies like the Cement and Concrete Association, the Polytechnic in Regent Street, London, where the courses deal with cost control in design. There are courses for building supervisors and courses on cost benefit analysis and on concrete construction.

531. Chairman.—Paragraph 32 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:—

“Motor Vehicle Duties

32. A test examination of the revenue from motor vehicle duties, etc., was carried out with satisfactory results. The reports of the Local Government auditors who examine the motor tax transactions of local authorities are made available to me.

The gross proceeds in 1968-69 amounted to £12,754,362 compared with £11,544,765 in the previous year. They include fines amounting to £276,201 collected by the Department of Justice; £10,901 in respect of fees received under the Road Traffic Act, 1961, Road Traffic (Public Service Vehicles) Regulations, 1963; £11,782 fees collected by planning authorities in respect of appliances and structures for servicing vehicles; £55,218 fees received by the Department of Local Government pursuant to the Road Traffic (Licensing of Drivers) Regulations, 1964, and £78,368 received from government departments in respect of State owned vehicles.

£12,701,218 was paid into the Exchequer and £4,561 was refunded leaving a balance of £150,996 compared with £102,413 at the end of the previous financial year.”

—Members also have the Road Fund Accounts.* Have you anything to add to the paragraph, Mr. Suttle?

Mr. Suttle.—This paragraph gives details of the various items making up the gross revenue from motor vehicle duties. Of the sum of £12,701,218 paid into the Exchequer, the finance accounts show that £11,164,000 was paid over to the Road Fund, the balance £1,537,218 being retained under section 17 of the Finance Act, 1966.

532. That was where an increase in road tax was to be retained by the Exchequer as revenue?

Mr. Suttle.—Yes. Private cars.

533. Deputy Dr. Gibbons.—What is the purpose of these test-examinations?

Mr. Suttle.—These accounts are audited by the Department of Local Government auditors. We get their reports and do a small test examination. When another auditor is involved in any expenditure on revenue like this we ensure that they are carrying out their work properly. That is why we confined ourselves to test examinations.

534. Deputy E. Collins.—On subhead A.— Salaries, Wages and Allowances—why the deficiency in expenditure?

Mr. Lawless.—The deficiency was mostly related to driver-testers. We found it rather difficult to recruit driver-testers in 1968-69. We then had about 24 driver-testers but we now have 42 and three supervisory driver-testers. It took some time to get these people recruited.

535. Deputy E. Collins.—What method is used to recruit these people?

—They are recruited by the Civil Service Commission.

536. Deputy Treacy.—Does the Accounting Officer consider that there is now sufficient staff for this purpose as it is often alleged that there is undue delay in people being called for a test?

—I am very glad to be able to tell the Deputy that for the first time I am happy about the situation. The waiting period has been considerably reduced. In fact, it has been reduced from about 22 weeks in October to 15 weeks at the end of January and we hope that it will be reduced to six or seven weeks by the end of the year.

Deputy Treacy.—That is very good progress.

537. Chairman.—Is there one driver-tester located in each county?

—There are five regional centres. These are in Carlow, Carrick-on-Shannon, Cork, Dublin and Limerick and there are 42 centres in all. The testers go from these headquarters to the local centre.

538. Deputy Treacy.—May I take it that since the Accounting Officer is happy about the position, he will not be employing any more testers?

—It may be necessary to employ more driver testers because the number of tests is increasing. In 1969 the tests reached the rate of 50,000. The forecast is that the number in 1970 will be about 75,000.

539. Deputy Dr. Gibbons.—Is this because it is expected that there will be more applicants or because there will be a higher standard of testing?

—We expect there will be more applicants.

540. Deputy E. Collins.—In respect of what are the expenses under subhead B.— Travelling and Incidental Expenses?

—They would be in respect of engineers, housing inspectors, driver-testers, headquarters inspectors and other staff.

541. Chairman.—With regard to subhead E.1—Housing Subsidy—and subhead E.2—Private Housing Grants—how does the proportion of money allocated to housing compare with the money for private house grants?

—The number of grant houses being built in recent years is increasing much more rapidly than the number of local authority houses. Last year the number of private houses built was in the region of 7,500 and this year it will be higher again, possibly 7,800 and this increase is reflected in the increasing amount provided each year for private housing grants as well as in the fact that very frequently in recent years the allocation has been exceeded. On the other hand, the amount of subsidy is increasing because, although the number of houses being built by local authorities is not increasing at the same rate, the subsidy is increasing because of the increased rates of interest which are being paid.

542. Deputy Dr. Gibbons.—With regard to subhead F.—Water Supply and Sewerage —there was some difficulty during the year in connection with plastic pipes?

—Yes, for a while there was a run of plastic pipes which were defective but I understand that these defects have been rectified now.

543. Deputy E. Collins.—If defective pipes were purchased under the contract, would it be possible to reclaim the cost?

—These pipes were purchased by the promoters of group water schemes and, generally, it is possible for them to obtain a refund.

544. I hope they were not used?

—Generally the pipes are tested under pressure which is much greater than that to which they would normally be subjected so I should think that any defects would show up during that test.

545. Chairman.—If a county council go to the expense of putting down pipes and, as has happened in South Tipperary, they have had to be taken up again and replaced by others, can the county council claim compensation for the amount of money lost?

—I imagine it would be a matter for the courts to decide but, generally, I would say yes, if pipes are supplied under a certain warranty and if that warranty is not fulfilled.

Deputy P. J. Lenihan.—That would be normal commercial practice.

546. Chairman.—Is the Accounting Officer aware of any case in which compensation has been paid?

—In the case of group water schemes compensation has been paid either in kind or in cash to the promoters of such schemes but at the moment I cannot recall any specific instance in which compensation was recovered by a local authority although there must be some cases.

Deputy Dr. Gibbons.—I presume that individuals would also have resort to the courts?

—Yes.

547. Chairman.—Have any company ceased production of plastic pipes?

—I think one company has.

548. Deputy P. J. Lenihan.—Were there many swimming pools involved under this subhead?

—Approval has been given for eleven swimming pools but I doubt if the question of subsidy for swimming pools has yet arisen. Possibly the provision for subsidy includes contributions in respect of one particular swimming pool in Dundalk.

549. Deputy Treacy.—On subhead G.— grants in respect of Derelict Sites, Public Amenity Works and Dangerous Places—a sum of £20,000 was granted in one particular instance. This is a very high percentage of the overall grant. Have you any information on that?

Mr. Suttle.—Landscaping generally at Ballymun.

550. Out of a relatively small estimate it was a high price to pay for landscaping in Ballymun vis-à-vis the rest of the country?

Mr. Suttle.—It was a small proportion of the total cost of the scheme.

Mr. Lawless.—I will send a note to the committee.*

551. Deputy Dr. Gibbons.—Who is responsible for deciding which places are dangerous and who initiates the work to be done?

—The local authority.

552. Deputy Treacy.—On subhead H.— Recoupment of Expenditure in respect of Register of Electors?—this is not likely to arise for a while I take it?

Deputy P. J. Lenihan.—It is an annual business.

553. Deputy E. Collins.—On subhead J.— National Building Advisory Council (Grant-in-Aid)—this lapses now?

—Yes.

554. Deputy Treacy.—On subhead K.— Urban Employment Schemes—what is the position about these schemes at the moment?

—The urban employment schemes?

Deputy P. J. Lenihan.—The Christmas relief fund.

Mr. Suttle.—The old special employment schemes.

Deputy E. Collins.—This now ceases?

Mr. Lawless.—Yes. In the present year’s estimate there is a small sum to pay for schemes which had been started.

555. This will not recur again?

—No. The only effective grants now are for local improvement schemes.

Subheads K. — Urban Employment Schemes—and L — Rural Employment Schemes—are replaced by subhead M— Local Improvement Scheme—is that the position?

—Yes, in the sense that subhead M. now contains the only provision for grants for new works, that is the position.

556. What is the essential difference in the approach under subhead M as opposed to the approach under subhead K and L?

—In the case of subhead M, that is the Local Improvements Scheme, generally there is a contribution from landowners where the average valuation of the farms which will benefit is above a certain figure.

557. In the urban areas what is the approach?

—These schemes are not usually operated in urban areas.

558. Therefore, in effect, subhead K is now being abolished rather than transferred?

—Yes. It is being phased out. The local improvements scheme is available for new works in accommodation roads.

559. Deputy P. J. Lenihan.—It was badly availed of this year by the rural areas?

—This was the first year in which the local improvements scheme was started and it took a long time to get off the ground.

560. Chairman.—How many local authorities have adopted it?

—All the county councils have adopted it.

561. How many got money and spent it on this scheme?

—In the current financial year I think all counties expect to use the full allocation except seven.

562. Deputy P. J. Lenihan.—Is Westmeath amongst them?

—The year we are discussing at the moment, 1968-69, was the first year and the local authorities were not geared to take it on. It took a little organisation and hence they did not use their full allocation. This year we expect that all but seven county councils will use their full allocation.

563. Chairman.—The Accounting Officer is probably aware that the local authorities were reluctant to take on this work. They maintain that the amount of money they get is too small to warrant a structure to operate it. That has been their argument?

—Yes, that has been their argument but our argument in turn has been that this work should be done as part of the ordinary organisation of the county councils. Previously this work was done by the Special Employment Schemes Office but now it has been transferred to the county councils to do as part of their ordinary work. It took some time before the county councils were able to adjust themselves to this and to fully accept the idea that, where money is allocated for a particular year and is not spent in that year, it cannot be transferred to the next year. In the case of Road Fund grants when an allocation is made to a local authority, if they cannot spent it in a particular year they can use the balance in the following year. That does not apply in the case of voted moneys and, despite our advice, the local authorities took some time before they were able to adjust themselves to these new conditions.

Deputy P. J. Lenihan.—It took some time for the officials to adjust themselves.

564. Deputy Treacy.—Is there any condition attached whereby the local authority are obliged to provide money out of the rates to back up the grant?

—No. They can deduct a certain percentage to cover their expenses. I think it is usually 12½ per cent.

565. Deputy P. J. Lenihan.—I found it was mainly confined to drainage and bog roads in Westmeath. It was under those headings they could qualify. The element of contribution is absent from this?

—Yes, except a contribution from people who benefit. This money is spent on accommodation roads which are not under the control of the local authority.

566. Deputy E. Collins.—What method is used by the Department to determine the allocation of money to the local authority?

Chairman.—It is based on past expenditure.

Deputy P. J. Lenihan.—It is the two previous subheads, K and L?

—Yes.

567. Chairman.—That has been suitable to the western counties and they have got a reasonable allocation. They can develop a method of utilising the money. With other counties, for example, my own county and probably some of the seven counties mentioned by the Accounting Officer, there is very little utilisation of the allocation. We cannot get our county engineers to agree to setting up worthwhile schemes.

Deputy P. J. Lenihan.—They have no organisation to set them up.

568. Deputy P. J. Lenihan.—In A of the explanations a sum of £59,000 was received from the vote for remuneration (No. 52). Why was this?

—That was a special increase in salary which was given to all civil servants. There was a separate vote for this.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 45—EXTERNAL AFFAIRS.

Mr. H. McCann called and examined.

569. Deputy Treacy.—On subhead D. Repatriation and Maintenance of Destitute Irish Persons abroad—could we have some advice as to how one secures assistance of this kind in respect of destitution abroad?

Mr. H. McCann.—A person goes to the embassy, explains his circumstances and then, if the case warrants it, the embassy arranges for his or her repatriation by the cheapest method. This applies in countries other than Britain. In Britain the circumstances in which people are repatriated are limited because of the fact that we have possibly one million citizens there and because of the standard of social services which would take care of them. In the case of Britain we repatriate young persons, especially girls, who are found to be in need of care and protection and persons destitute and unfit for work by reason of physical or mental ill health. We also repatriate unmarried mothers.

570. Chairman.—We have a number of voluntary organisations in Britain who look after our emigrants. Do we give any subvention to them?

—No. No subvention is made to those voluntary organisations. This is a question which has been discussed in the Dáil on a number of occasions. It is essentially a policy matter.

571. We have no emigrant social welfare service as such?

—We have a service in so far as we arrange for repatriation at embassies other than in Britain. In the case of Britain we give them advice and help as to where to go for assistance, how to avail themselves of the social services and put them in touch with the voluntary Irish organisations as well. We also encourage the formation of Irish societies particularly with a view to giving assistance to our emigrants and providing a social service for those in need of assistance.

572. Deputy Treacy.—How many persons approximately would this figure represent?

—In the course of the year 1968/69 there were 147 cases dealt with by the Irish Embassy in London and 168 cases in other parts of the world, making a total of 315 cases.

Mr. Suttle.—The bulk of the money is recovered when the people come home. There is a statement at the top of page 151 which shows the position in regard to the advances during the year and the amount recovered.

Deputy P. J. Lenihan.—It is primarily a service to get them home.

573. Deputy Treacy.—May we take it, therefore, that assistance is granted on the undertaking given by the persons concerned to repay the money on their return home?

—Yes, that is correct. It is not always possible to secure repayment and on certain occasions we have to write it off as irrecoverable. In the year under review 41 cases were written off as irrecoverable.

574. Deputy P. J. Lenihan.—On subhead E.—Cultural Relations with other countries (Grant-in-Aid)—with what countries do we maintain cultural relations?

—All our missions abroad engage in cultural activities. We also do cultural work through people who go from Ireland with help from the Cultural Relations Committee. This could be any country, not necessarily one where we have a mission.

Deputy P. J. Lenihan.—If Micheal Mac Liammóir was doing a tour could you give him help?

—That is right, yes.

575. Deputy E. Collins.—On subhead F. —Information Services—was the supplementary grant in relation to the recent Six Counties campaign?

—No. That is not a charge on our vote. I believe provision will be made in another vote. It did not arise on this. This account is for the year ended March 1969. It was in the autumn of 1969 that that campaign was undertaken.

576. Does this subhead cover giving information and seeking information?

—It is mainly the dissemination of information about Ireland, the publication of booklets, the fortnightly bulletin, the production of films and the bringing of foreign journalists to Ireland.

577. What about the commercial attaches?

—They would be under the salary subhead. They do not come under this particular subhead but that type of activity is covered by the ordinary trade promotion work of our officers. The activities in the information field are not confined to any particular aspect of the work of the Department. Such activities could cover all aspects, including the economic ones.

578. Would there not be a separate subhead in relation to the expenses of the commercial attaches?

—I should explain that all our officers abroad, including heads of missions, give a first priority to commercial work. Commercial attaches as such do not exist as a separate class. In certain embassies we have particular officers engaged all the time on trade work. We regard trade work as the responsibility of heads of missions and the general diplomatic officers of the mission unless they are engaged on something else particularly. It would not be possible to extract the cost of commercial work as such.

Mr. Suttle.—The number of embassies who have a special trade attache are comparatively small. There are trade attaches at big embassies like London and in America.

—Yes, and in Paris and Italy. In other missions trade matters are dealt with as part of the general work of the missions.

579. Deputy E. Collins.—Are you satisfied that the commercial information can be sought efficiently and can be relayed back to the commercial interests in Ireland?

—That is part of the normal day-to-day work, helping firms by locating opportunities for them, helping in securing agents and giving them information about restrictions on trade, tariffs, etc. We pass this information to Córas Tráchtála and also direct to the various trade organisations and industrial bodies and to individual firms who communicate with us.

580. Deputy P. J. Lenihan.—It is mainly a CTT job?

—We complement their activities and service them where they have no officers.

581. Deputy Dr. Gibbons.—Have your staff any particular training in this work?

—We endeavour to see that all our new recruits spend part of their period of training in the economic and trade section of the Department. Before they go abroad we usually give them a period with Coras Tráchtála or other semi-State bodies engaged in foreign earnings generally. We try, in the context of the particular country they are going to, to give them a short period with the firms who are the principal exporters to those countries.

582. Deputy E. Collins.—On subhead G. —Official Entertainment—why was it found necessary to increase this estimate by more than half from £30,000 to £46,000?

—There was an unexpectedly large number of international conferences, Governmental and non-Governmental, attracted to Ireland in that year. This reflected the success of the programme to have Ireland used as a conference centre.

583. Deputy Tunney.—Is there any duplication of effort here as between yourselves and Bord Fáilte? Do Bord Fáilte not interest themselves in this?

—They do, naturally. They often come to us for assistance.

584. Deputy E. Collins.—Your efforts are really related to making gestures at Government level? It is expected the Government should make some gesture at important international conferences?

—Yes.

585. Deputy Treacy.—Would it be prudent to ask for information about the main aspect of entertainment carried out under this heading?

—The heaviest aspects are the receptions given for these visiting conventions. They are the events which cause the heaviest expenditure. There are then the normal functions on the reception of new ambassadors or on the departure of ambassadors. It is normal to offer an ambassador a dinner on these occasions. If we have visitors of distinction, like U Thant, the Belgian Royal Family or Ministers from European countries it is normal to offer hospitality. The biggest single element would, however, be the receptions for international conferences.

586. Deputy E. Collins.—Who determines whether or not an official reception is to be given? Is there a code of practice laid down over the years?

—In so far as the ambassadors are concerned there is a certain practice. In so far as receptions for particular groups coming from abroad are concerned, it would be decided largely on the advice of the Minister whose activities nearest correspond to the functions of the group who are coming. For instance, at a World Health conference the Minister for Health might decide it was appropriate to give a reception.

587. May we take it that the kind of entertainment we provide for our guests is reciprocated abroad?

—Yes. We follow normal practice abroad.

588. Our people receive the same treatment when they go abroad?

—In general, yes. Some countries are more generous than others. This is a factor of our success in attracting conventions here. If we were mean it would be more difficult to pursuade the bodies to have their conventions here. There is a by-product in the amount of money spent in hotels and in purchases generally by our visitors. It assists the Bord Fáilte overall programme.

589. Deputy Treacy.—Under No. 2 of Appropriations in Aid—Receipts from sale of information booklets and films—can the accounting officer give us any information as to the success of the Irish films that were shown abroad?

—We judge their success, not by the financial return but by the amount of exposure they give to Ireland. As far as the financial aspect is concerned, the film Yeats Country was a fantastic success. The receipts exceeded the cost of production of the film but we are not in the film business to make money but rather to promote information about Ireland abroad.

590. Can you let us know anything about other films that were shown abroad? For instance, was the Mise Éire film shown outside Ireland?

—It was not made by us and I understand there was a copyright problem and that the film could only be shown in Ireland.

591. May we take it, then, that you are confined to showing films which are made under your direction?

—We would show any suitable film from any source, whether it be produced by a private or commercial organisation, by a semi-State body or by ourselves, because we are anxious to get across the best picture of Ireland that is possible.

592. Deputy E. Collins.—With regard to No. 3 of Appropriations in Aid—Repayment of Repatriation and Maintenance Advances —to what extent did the Department go to recoup these advances?

—First of all, before we make an advance we get an undertaking from the person concerned that he will repay it. Also, before making the advance every effort is made to get financial assistance for the person from relatives in Ireland. When the person comes back to Ireland we approach him for a refund and repeat our request, if necessary. Occasionally, we make inquiries from the Garda as to the circumstances of the person. It is only when we find that it would be wasteful to pursue the matter further, that we arrange to have it written off.

593. On the third Note, can the accounting officer give us any information as to the expenditure on gifts?

—These are the customary gifts that are presented on the occasion of visits of heads of state or other distinguished visitors. In the particular year under review the Belgian Royal Visit was, perhaps, the greatest single item involved. There was also the visit of Captain O’Neill and there was the customary present on St. Patrick’s Day to the President of the United States. There was also an expenditure in connection with an Independence Day Celebration abroad as well as a number of other items on the occasion of the Taoiseach’s visit to India, Thailand and Japan.

VOTE 46—INTERNATIONAL CO-OPERATION.

Mr. H. McCann further examined.

594. Chairman.—Paragraph 89 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Subhead E.1—Contribution to the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade.

89. Ireland acceded to the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade on 22 December, 1967 and the charge to this subhead, £7,552 represents the first payment on accession. It consists of £175 as a contribution to the G.A.T.T. budget for 1967, £6,614 as contribution for 1968, and an advance of £763 to the working capital fund of the organisation. These amounts are assessed on the basis of 0.5 per cent. of GATT budgets.”

595. What benefit do we reap from GATT.

Mr. H. McCann.—The purpose of GATT is to seek to remove barriers to international trade and to provide facilities for the solution of problems arising in international trade. As a country who is anxious to increase her exports, we are naturally interested in all these activities.

596. Deputy P. J. Lenihan.—Is Japan a Member of GATT?

—There is a problem about Japan and I cannot say for certain whether she is a member at the moment.

597. Deputy E. Collins.—Japan is implicated in dumping?

—There has been a problem with her low cost exports and a number of countries, including Ireland, have invoked Article 35.

598. Deputy Dr. Gibbons.—Does GATT help towards the problem of dumping?

—They specify a code practice in relation to dumping which is a help.

599. Deputy P. J. Lenihan.—Subhead B.1. deals with our contribution towards the expenses of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. On what basis is our percentage calculated?

—It is calculated on the basis of our gross national product and population. Our percentage of the general expenditure is 0.31 per cent.

600 Deputy P. J. Lenihan.—Under C.1.— Contribution to the United Nations—is the percentage the same?

—In the case of the United Nations contributions are based on the percentage assessment of the Budget of the United Nations based on comparative estimates of national income subject to certain modifications. In our case the percentage for 1968 was 0.17 per cent which was a slightly larger percentage than in the previous year.

601. Deputy Treacy.—Perhaps it is not relevant but could the accounting officer give us any information with regard to countries who are not paying?

—As far as I am aware, there are very few cases of countries who have not paid their normal budget subscription. There were countries, of course, who objected to certain other assessments and on which there was a variance of opinion. A few years ago there was a serious dispute about applying Article 19 which could involve a loss of voting rights for the country concerned. I have not got here a list of countries in default at the moment.

602. Deputy E. Collins.—Under subhead C.4.—Contribution towards Expanded Programme of Technical Assistance—are we benefiting from this?

—We have not benefited from subhead C.4. We have benefited from another of the technical assistance programmes which comes under a later subhead dealing with the Special Fund.

603. Deputy P. J. Lenihan.—Subhead C.7.?

—Yes, C.7. We have benefited there in connection with Foras Forbartha, the National Institute of Physical Planning and Construction Research.

604. Chairman.—Would you explain subhead C.7—Contribution to the United Nations Special Fund.

—This is a fund which enlarges the scope of the United Nations’ regular and expanded programme of technical assistance. It is mainly concerned with the activities in certain basic projects in the field of pre-investment activities. It is to accelerate economic development by creating conditions which would make new capital investment either feasible or more effective. It includes activities such as surveys, research and training, demonstrations of pilot projects, etc.

605. Deputy P. J. Lenihan.—The report about the growth centres, the Buchanan Report? Did they not finance that?

—I do not think so.

606. Deputy E. Collins.—Subhead C.9.— Contribution to the United Nations Educational and Training Programme for South Africans—what is this?

—This is a fund made up of voluntary contributions from States, organisations and individuals to be used for grants to voluntary organisations, Governments of host countries of refugees from South Africa and other appropriate bodies towards legal assistance to persons charged under discriminatory and repressive legislation in South Africa, relief of dependants of persons persecuted by the Government of South Africa for acts arising from opposition to the policies of apartheid, education of prisoners, their children and other dependants, and relief for refugees from South Africa.

607. Deputy Dr. Gibbons.—May I ask under what subhead is our contribution to the maintenance of United Nations military forces?

—Peace keeping forces? That would come under the Defence Vote.

608. What does the Overseas Trainee Fund cover?

—This covers assistance to developing countries by providing training in Ireland in administration, management and technical skills for nationals of developing countries. We had two Zambian schemes before the year under review. During the year under review we had none but there are two in the pipeline at the moment.

Deputy P. J. Lenihan.—They attend courses at the University.

The witness withdrew.

The Committee adjourned at 12.20 p.m.

* See Appendix 13

* See Appendix 14

* See Appendix 15