Committee Reports > List of Committees > Dáil > 1968 > Committee of Public Accounts > Report - Appropriation Accounts 1967 - 1968

MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA

(Minutes of Evidence)

Deardaoin 12 Nollaig 1968

Thursday 12 December 1968

The Committee met at 11 a.m.

Mr. E. F. Suttle (An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste) and Miss Breathnach and Mr. J. R. Whitty (An Roinn Airgeadais) called and examined.

VOTE 43—DEFENCE.

Mr. S. Ó Cearnaigh called and examined.

291. Chairman.—Paragraph 76 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads as follows:

“Subhead H.—Defensive Equipment

76. In the course of a stores audit it was noted that twenty-two generating sets for anti-aircraft searchlights with ancillary spares had been unused for a considerable period. In 1960 the Accounting Officer stated that this equipment could have been considered obsolescent but it had been decided that it should be retained as mobilisation stock for anti-aircraft and seaward defence purposes. I have been informed that it has been decided to retain six sets and offer the remainder for sale.”

Have you anything to add, Mr. Suttle?

Mr. Suttle.—These generating sets have now become obsolescent because of the development of new anti-aircraft techniques, for example, radar.

292. Chairman.—Have they been sold?

Mr. Ó Cearnaigh.—Tenders will be invited in the near future for the sale of a number of them.

293. Deputy Healy.—If the tender was a reasonable one, is there any necessity to retain the six sets if they are obsolescent?— They could have a limited use for miscellaneous purposes, not for their original purpose of tracking aircraft but for displays and on ceremonial occasions.

294. Chairman.—Paragraph 77 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Subhead K.—Provisions

77. Statements have been furnished to me showing the cost of production of bread at the Curragh bakery and of meat at the Dublin and Curragh abattoirs. The unit costs are as follows:—

The average price of cattle purchased for the Dublin and Curragh areas was £92 and £94 per head, respectively, as compared with £87 and £88 per head, in the previous year, while the average production of beef per head was 683 lbs. and 680 lbs., respectively as compared with 678 lbs. and 687 lbs.”

Mr. Suttle.—This paragraph is for the information of the Committee.

295. Chairman.—In respect of meat, why did the prices in the Curragh go up as compared with Dublin?

Mr. Ó Cearnaigh.—Partly due to labour costs and partly because of the prime cost of cattle.

296. Deputy Kenny.—What method is used to purchase the cattle?—An agent buys on behalf of the Department.

Is it the same agent everywhere?—For quite a number of years now it has been the same agent.

297. Deputy Gilhawley.—Do you advertise for agents? How is the agent selected?— The Minister appoints the agent.

298. Chairman.—Are they the same agents who operate under the TB scheme?—No.

Purely an army buyer?—Yes.

299. Deputy Kenny.—Are the beasts slaughtered at the Curragh Camp?—Yes, and in Dublin in the city abattoir.

Are they army butchers or outside slaughterers?—Army butchers. There is a civilian employee also.

300. Deputy Gilhawley.—On what basis is the agent paid, on a commission basis?— He is paid a commission of 5/- per head up to a total of 150 cattle a month. After that it is 3/6d per head.

Chairman.—How many agents have you, just one?—Yes.

301. Deputy Kenny.—How many cattle would they buy during a year?—In Dublin 180 and in the Curragh 183 during 1967-68.

302. Chairman.—Paragraph 78 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Subhead Q.—Engineer Stores

78. In the course of examination of log books for compressors and other engineering equipment it was observed that some items had not been in service for considerable periods. I was informed that steps were being taken to repair such items as were capable of being made serviceable and that the others would be sold.”

303. Have you anything to add, Mr. Suttle?

Mr. Suttle.—The equipment I inquired about comprised three compressors, an excavator, a bulldozer and a concrete mixer. It is intended to make the two latter items serviceable and to dispose of the others.

304. Deputy Kenny.—What method have you of disposing of these machines?

Mr. Ó Cearnaigh.—If they are being sold we normally invite competitive tenders.

305. Deputy Gilhawley.—The paragraph says that some items have not been in service for a considerable period. Is it because they were not required?—There are a number of reasons why items might remain out of service for a period. Some of this equipment is old and it might be hard to get spare parts to repair it. Some of it is used for training and is required only periodically. There would also be the question of the availability of time in the workshops and priority as between one item and another.

306. Deputy Treacy.—What procedure is adopted in respect of the sale of such goods and vehicles?—Vehicles are normally sold by auction and other items by competitive tender.

Publicly advertised?—Publicly advertised.

307. Do the advertisements appear in local papers as well as national papers?—National papers only as a rule.

308. Chairman.—Paragraph 79 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Subhead Z.—Appropriations in Aid

79. Fifty acres of land at a military camp was let for a term of five years from November 1965. Subsequently it was discovered that the tenant had encroached on an area of twenty-five acres in excess of that authorised in his agreement and it was then decided to authorise with retrospective effect the letting of the excess acreage. As the agreement did not seem to define the exact situation and boundary of the lands let and as local supervision did not appear to have been adequate I communicated with the Accounting Officer and was informed that, in case there was any doubt locally about the proper procedure to be followed, instructions would be issued as to the need for supervision of the areas of lettings and the purposes for which they are made.”

309. Have you anything to add to that, Mr. Suttle?

Mr. Suttle.—There was, apparently a weakness in the control of lettings of lands surplus to requirements. Instructions which have now been issued to local units should improve the position.

310. Chairman.—Is there now a definitely defined area in these instructions?

Mr. Ó Cearnaigh.—Normally, the area is definitely specified. In this case the prospective tenant applied for a letting of 50 acres of land. He pointed this out to an Army engineer and tenders were then invited for a letting of 50 acres. The person who originally applied got it—he was the only tenderer—and apparently he was under some doubt as to what area precisely he was entitled to use. In the event, he enclosed an additional 25 acres. One of our inspecting officers was out on inspection about six months later and observed the encroachment and the matter was raised.

311. Have we much on hands which might perhaps better be sold, unnecessary land?— It is a question that is continually being looked at. The military authorities consider they require what they have at present and that no surplus land is available for disposal.

312. Deputy Healy.—Any land not being used that could be let, has it been let? We may not sell it but surely it could be let for 11 months?—We are assured by the military authorities that they require all the land they have and that the maximum amount of land is let on yearly or longer tenancies.

313. Deputy Kenny.—How many military camps have we got, apart from the Curragh? —There are about 50, but those with large areas of land attached are the Curragh, Kilworth, Finner——

What about Renmore in Galway?—There is some land there.

314. Deputy Treacy.—Apart from the land in question in the paragraph, has any land of any consequence been disposed of in recent years by way of sale?—No large area. There might have been small parcels disposed of here and there.

315. Chairman.—Paragraph 80 reads:

“Subhead CC.—Compensation

80. The charge to this subhead comprises:—

Mr. Suttle.—This paragraph is purely for information.

316. Chairman.—How many cases would this cover?—Four cases cost about £4,000. The others were for small amounts. There are quite a number of cases altogether but they are mostly small. Only about 33 of them would involve £50 or over.

317. Deputy Healy.—How does this figure compare with that for last year?—It is much the same—the normal position.

There are a lot of learners on the road month after month?—That is so.

318. Chairman.—Paragraph 81 is as follows:

“Suspense Account

81. Compensation amounting to £1.000 was paid to a civilian employee of the Corps of Engineers in respect of an eye injury caused by an object thrown by a rotary grass cutter which was being operated without a stone guard. In reply to an inquiry I was informed that the machine was purchased in the first instance for use on uneven ground where it could not be operated with guards but that it is intended to fit stone guards to this and another similar machine. All other rotary cutters in use by the Army are fitted with stone guards.”

Mr. Suttle.—This is for information.

319. Chairman.—Paragraph 82 states:

“Repayment Service

82. A course of training of six Officer Cadets of the Zambian Army was undertaken at the Military College, Curragh Training Camp commencing in October 1967. The entire cost including uniforms. accommodation, ration allowance and the pay and allowances of special instructors is being recouped by the Zambian Government.”

320. Deputy Kenny.—How did Zambia come to choose Ireland?—There have been certain contacts between Zambia and Irish Departments. Originally, some Zambian civil servants came here for training in Government Departments. Some of them spent some time with local authorities also. I suppose, one thing led to another. The Zambian Government have cadets in other countries as well.

Mr. Suttle.—I recently provided from my staff an Auditor General for Zambia.

321. Deputy Treacy.—The paragraph states that payment is made by the Zambian Government?—Payment was received in advance in respect of the course.

322. Chairman.—How long do these courses last?—About one and a half years to two years.

323. Deputy Kenny.—On subhead F.— Civilians attached to Units: Pay etc.—what is the proportion of civilians to army personnel?—There are about 1,500 civilians employed with units. The total strength of the army is roughly 8,250.

Deputy Gilhawley.—Is that regular army? —Yes. The FCA strength is about 20,000.

324. On subhead M—Clothing and Equipment—I should like to comment on the standard of the FCA uniform. It is deplorable and it is about time something was done about it.

Chairman.—This is a policy matter, I’m afraid.

325. Deputy Treacy—Also on this, may we take it that the increase involved here was due to an increase in the price of clothing material?—Not so much an increase in the price of clothing. I think the main reason for the increase was better deliveries, accelerated deliveries. There was a change in the system of ordering clothing and deliveries were speeded up. In previous years there was a tendency to under-spend under this heading. The change in the system has improved matters in relation to deliveries, with the result that more clothing had to be paid for in that year than had been anticipated.

326. If the volume of cloth delivered in that year is not utilised, does it mean we shall effect a saving next year?—I think the estimated expenditure will be reached in the current year.

327. Deputy Kenny.—On subhead AA— Military Education Courses and Visits— what would be involved in the visits?—The sending of officers on training courses outside the country.

328. Would they include pilots?—Not normally. There is a variety of courses— infantry, command and staff courses and so on.

329. We were told previously that Aer Lingus sent their pilots for training to Scotland?—Yes, Aer Lingus have sent some of their trainee pilots to Scotland and other places for the reason that the facilities we have for training pilots for them are not sufficient to cater for the full number they want trained.

330. Deputy Treacy.—Might I go back to subhead W—Expenses of Equitation Teams at Horse Shows—where it is shown that £6,400 of the grant was not availed of. Could we have an explanation as to why the Equitation Teams are not availing themselves of these visits to shows abroad, especially in America? Is it lack of interest on the part of the personnel concerned or is it because our horses are perhaps not up to standard?—The decision is taken by the Minister, in the light of the information available to him, as to what shows Army riders will attend. As regards this particular year, provision had been made earlier, when the Estimate was being prepared, to go to shows in America, but when the programme for the year was being finally settled, it was decided not to include America.

331. Hardly on the grounds of economy? —No.

Then we can only assume our teams are not up to standard?—Instead of going to America they went to shows in Europe.

332. Deputy Healy.—Is there any policy about selling abroad good horses from the Army School? Do we part with some of our good jumpers?—Not normally.

Deputy Healy.—Instead of having an Army team we are now going in for civilian teams with one or two Army men jumping with them.

Chairman.—There has been some friction on that.

Deputy Treacy.—We all wish to see Ireland regain some of her former glory in this respect.

333. Deputy Healy.—Does subhead BB.— Irish Red Cross Society (Grant-in-Aid)— cover Civil Defence?—No.

334. What exactly is this grant-in-aid?— It is for the expenses of the Society, to help the Society finance itself and also to make money available to relieve distress wherever it may occur, through natural disasters or otherwise.

335. It is from this Department they get their funds?—Substantially from this Vote but they also raise some funds of their own.

Any Government aid for them would be mostly through this Department?—That is so.

336. On the explanation to the causes of variation between expenditure and grant relating to subhead A.—Salaries, Wages and Allowances—does this saving mean there are vacancies in the clerical staff—vacancies for typists and clerical officers? Do you find difficulty in recruiting office staff?—In the clerical grades there are difficulties in recruiting staff and, therefore, there are vacancies.

337. In other Departments we discovered a similar situation. In one Department there were 100 vacancies for shorthand-typists and clerical officers. It seems that all Departments are understaffed and that there is great need for a recruitment drive?—I shall send the committee a note on this matter.*

338. Chairman.—In relation to No. 13 of Appropriation in Aid—Receipts from United Nations in respect of Overseas Allowances, Stores, etc.—there is a great windfall, £673,284 being received instead of the £175,000 estimated?—After our units first went to Cyprus, a long period went by without any recovery. Eventually this was straightened out, and the amount came in during this financial year.

It came in a bulk sum?—That is so.

339. Deputy Healy.—I take it, then, that the matter has been finalised and that we can estimate fairly accurately what we can expect to get from the UN in future?— Substantially, yes, but it depends also on how well funded the UN is from time to time.

340. Deputy Treacy.—How do we stand in relation to our commitment in the Congo? —That has been cleared up apart from some small amount and that matter is being examined.

341. Deputy Kenny.—Do your Department cover all the personnel engaged abroad in the service of the UN?—Military personnel, yes.

342. What about those who do police work abroad? Does this amount cover them? —No.

343. Chairman.—In regard to payments made to our troops who are engaged in the making of films, referred to in the explanation of item 14—Miscellaneous—of the Appropriations in Aid, do you recover out of pocket expenses?—We recover the pay and allowances of the personnel engaged, plus a contribution in respect of pensions.

There is no profit in it for us?—No.

344. Deputy Healy.—Do our personnel get paid as much for the services they render as civilian workers get as extras? Some civilians get as much as £2 and £3 a day. Do the Army personnel get as much as that?—The men engaged get their normal pay and allowances and, in addition, arrangements are made with the film company to pay them a daily gratuity which, in a recent film, amounted to 25/6d.

345. Deputy Kenny.—Do the individual soldiers get that—is it paid directly to them?—I understand it is paid directly by the film company to the troops.

Chairman.—So they get a little more when they are engaged in this work?—Yes, they get it for every day during the period of filming whether engaged on the sets or not.

346. Deputy Kenny.—Who selects the soldiers who are engaged in the films?—The military authorities do that.

So the film company do not come along, look at the troops and say: “I want you, you and you”?—No.

347. Deputy Treacy.—What is the up-to-date position in regard to payments? Are there any substantial amounts due to you in respect of film making?—We get paid in advance as far as practicable.

348. Chairman.—In the Losses Statement, is there an explanation relating to item No. 3 in respect of damage to aircraft?—In one case the wrong oil was put into the aircraft by a fitter and it did some damage. In another case, a pilot evidently made a mistake in landing the aircraft. The wheels did not retract properly and he made a kind of crash landing on the runway.

349. Chairman.—In regard to item No. 10 where fire damage amounted to £905 while only £500 was recovered from the insurance company, did the insurance company not provide full cover?—The building immediately in use was insured but the fire spread to an adjacent building which was not covered by insurance.

350. Was the adjacent building ours? How is it the building was not insured?— The building was let for a particular purpose and one of the letting conditions was that it be insured by the hirer. It was under this condition that this money was recovered. The adjacent building, which was also the property of the Department, was not included in the letting and thus was not insured.

351. In cases like that would your insurance policy not cover all the damage?— It would be very difficult to set a precise limitation to the extent of buildings to be covered. The person using the building would have, perhaps, a very small portion of the building, a room or something like that. It would be a question then of, perhaps, insuring the whole block if one wanted to be completely safe, or insuring a whole barracks just in case a fire might spread.

352. You are satisfied there is no gap in our insurance arrangements?—I think reasonable provision was made for this type of contingency in the insurance that was effected.

353. If you were doing it again, would you do it the same way?—I believe we would. We might look more closely at the situation to see whether the insurance could be a little more extensive.

354. Deputy Kenny.—Does the same company insure all Defence property?—Defence property is not insured at all but when lettings are made the hirer is required to insure.

355. Deputy Treacy.—If I may, I would like to go back to item 14 of the Appropriation in Aid where a figure of £6,809 is shown as receipts in respect of the hire of helicopters. I would be grateful for some information as to how these receipts came to be paid. I would be anxious to differentiate between commitments in respect of the usage of the helicopters on mercy missions and such things?—The receipts were almost all in respect of helicopters used for the ambulance service. These moneys mainly come from health authorities. As regards mercy missions and rescue, there is no charge.

356. Deputy Treacy.—Could I have a note in respect of the receipts from the various health authorities for the hire of helicopters?—I can give you that now.

Deputy Treacy.—A note will suffice.*

357. Chairman.—We have two helicopters?—Three.

Can you recall what we paid for them?— Roughly of the order of £60,000 each.

VOTE 44—ARMY PENSIONS.

Mr. S. Ó Cearnaigh further examined.

358. Deputy Kenny.—On subhead F.— Connaught Rangers (Pensions) Acts, 1936 to 1964—how many of these people are still living?—Fifteen at present.

359. On subhead H.—Special Allowances under the Army Pensions Acts, 1923 to 1964, to Persons who served in Easter Week, to Persons awarded Medals and to Persons granted Pensions or Gratuities under the Connaught Rangers (Pensions) Acts—what method is adopted for certifying applicants for special allowances and Army pensions? —This would be for certifying the medals?

Yes?—A scheme was laid down by the Government in 1957, a procedure whereby the officers of the unit of which the applicant claimed to be a member are asked to vouch if he was a member.

360. They certify that these people were in the service at a certain time?—The relative period for that purpose is the three months ended 11th July, 1921. The officers of the unit of which the applicant claimed to be a member are approached, if they are available, to say whether he was a member or not.

361. Are these officers nominated by the Department as certifying officers in the various districts?—Not nominated as such. They are the officers listed in the rolls prepared for the purposes of the Military Service Pensions Act, 1934.

362. Their evidence is accepted on behalf of the applicant?—Shall we say, it is considered.

363. Would a list of the certifying officers be available to the Members of the committee?—I think that would be a matter of policy, a matter really for the Minister.

Deputy Kenny.—I ask this particular question now because it has been brought home to me that even though applicants were certified by their officers, still, when they applied for the special allowance or the Old IRA pension they were refused.

364. Chairman.—Is the Army Pensions Board still in existence?—There is an Army Pensions Board but it deals only with disability claims.

Chairman.—The old Army Pensions Board has been terminated?—Yes.

365. Deputy Kenny.—It appears from what we have heard that the written evidence of certifying officers to the effect that an applicant was in the service during a particular period can be overruled by the Department?—It is not overruled. It is considered very carefully.

But sometimes not favourably?—If an award is not given it is for very good reasons.

Deputy Healy.—Sometimes it is difficult for an officer to recall what had happened 40 or 50 years previously. I know an officer in Cork who could not do it. What Deputy Kenny has mentioned is known to all Deputies. They understand that the evidence of certifying officers is overruled.

Deputy Kenny.—That is what I am speaking about—the overruling of such evidence by the Department. A certifying officer may say: “So and so was my patrol leader, my captain,” but when the application goes in it is overruled.

366. Chairman.—This is more properly a matter to be raised in the Dáil.

Mr. Ó Cearnaigh.—It is not a matter of overruling evidence. It would be a question of weighing the evidence. It does not necessarily occur that an officer always certifies membership. Sometimes officers do not certify membership.

Deputy Healy.—I know this is a matter of policy and one can understand how many officers pass the buck.

367. Deputy Gilhawley.—Are you satisfied there is no abuse?

Mr. Ó Cearnaigh.—I am satisfied that every case is very fully considered.

368. Deputy Healy.—Under extra receipts payable to Exchequer, there is a reference to ex gratia payments in respect of personnel who died or suffered disability as a result of service in the Congo. Are these payments without admission of liability and is there a fixed amount?

Mr. Suttle.—It is under an agreement between the UN and the State regarding the supply of forces for UN work. This is a matter of the payment of gratuities.

369. Deputy Healy.—If a person loses his life while on UN service, is there a fixed sum and could we learn something about how the matter is settled?

Mr. Ó Cearnaigh.—In respect of a married man the sum would be £3,500 and in respect of a single man the sum would be £2,000.

So there is a scale?—Yes.

370. Chairman.—It would come from the UN?—Initially it is paid by the Department who would be recouped.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 36—ROINN NA GAELTACHTA.

L. Uasal Tóibín called and examined.

371. Deputy Molloy.—On subhead D.— Tithe Gaeltachta—could you state the number of houses finished during the year we are dealing with?—The work completed in that year consisted of 178 new houses, 279 improvements, 338 water installations, 322 cases of sewerage facilities, 297 bathrooms, 20 cases of improvements to water and sewerage facilities, 67 special extensions for visitors and 21 holiday chalets. Some of these would have been begun earlier but they were completed in the year we are dealing with. There was, of course, other work going on during the year but not completed until later.

Deputy Molloy.—Molaim an obair.

372. Deputy Kenny.—On subhead E.— Scéimeanna Feabhsúcháin sa Ghaeltacht— do the Minor Improvement Schemes still operate in respect of roads?—Not through the Special Employments Schemes Office but something equivalent to such schemes is operated through county councils.

373. There are no free schemes in operation now in the Gaeltacht?—Yes, through the county councils 100 per cent grants. In the year under review we spent £79,000 on accommodation roads.

374. These are non county council roads? —Yes, but in many cases we try to get the county council to take them over if we put them into sufficiently good condition. In that year we also spent a substantial amount of money on county roads, but that is exceptional; county Mayo was included.

375. It is a very good thing in county Mayo. The minor employment schemes are finished in the rest of the county. Do the free schemes still operate in the Gaeltacht?— Yes. As far as the Gaeltacht is concerned the only difference is that we now operate through the county council where previously we operated through the Special Employment Schemes Office. The Department of Local Government will be able to explain to you how the other improvement schemes for which that Office was responsible are continuing. I am not in a position to speak on this but, from circulars I have seen, I think the schemes probably continue at much the same level of activity.

376. Deputy Molloy.—Who inspects the roads for Roinn na Gaeltachta and makes the recommendation to the County Council? —We usually get a request through our local stiúrthóir who would investigate and see whether from a Departmental point of view the road would be of special interest to us. Very briefly, it would not have any special interest for us unless it served a number of Irish-speaking households.

377. Have you a requirement?—Four normally. Assuming the application was satisfactory in that way and a useful job could be done on the road at reasonable cost, we would ask the county council to give us an estimate. We would consider the estimate and, if it was acceptable, sanction a grant and the council would do the work.

378. Have you any idea of the number of applications you would receive compared with the amount of work you would carry out in any one year?—We do not have a big backlog. If we are satisfied we sanction the money very soon after getting the estimate. I have not figures for applications but I have figures for the expenditure on the roads actually improved. For instance, in County Galway the expenditure on accommodation roads was £32,360 last year.

379. Deputy Molloy.—Táimid buíoch den Roinn faoin eolas seo, ach ba mhaith liom a fháil amach cé mhéad iarratas atá ann ón Ghaeltacht, go háiríthe ó Chonamara. B’fhéidir go gcuirfeá nóta chugainn faoi?— Déanfaidh mé sin, cinnte.*

380. Chairman.—Expenditure was much less than the grant?—In the case of roads it was much more than the estimate but it was less in the case of subhead E as a whole. Again, the main saving was in the Galway area, on the extension of the pier at Kilronan. The work did not get going until the end of the year and we had to carry over the provision to the current year. The job is done now and over £100,000 has been spent.

381. Deputy Molloy.—And it has been done very satisfactorily. Has there been a decrease in the demand for grants for secondary schools since the Department of Education put the new scheme into operation?—Last year we paid no grant for the building of schools. It was a kind of interregnum arising from the new schemes.

382. The Department of Education have taken over now?—No, we are back in business again. We have a number of live applications and are spending money this year again. Some schools seem to prefer to deal with us.

383. What grants are available now from Roinn na Gaeltachta for secondary schools? —We are now giving grants up to 85 per cent.

384. The same as the Department of Education?—Not quite. Their grant is 70 per cent. Our grant is better but, on the other hand, they arrange a loan for the balance which is paid back over 15 years. We do not get involved in any loan but our grant may be up to 85 per cent at the moment. Some schools prefer to deal with us.

385. Can they arrange a loan for the balance?—That would be a matter for themselves.

386. Deputy Kenny.—How many Gaeltacht secondary schools have you in Mayo and Galway?—I have not got the detailed information before me but, from memory, I can say that, in Mayo, we gave a substantial grant to build one at Achill Sound and further grants for extensions at Tourmakeady and Belmullet. We gave some assistance to one at Ros Dumhach which serves the Carrowteige area. Offhand, I cannot think of any more in Mayo.

Would there be more in Galway?—We gave assistance to the convent schools at Spiddal and Carna. We were not involved in the comprehensive school at Carraroe, but we gave some assistance to the convent school there.

387. Deputy Molloy.—In regard to the figure of £9,175 for water and sewerage schemes, is the amount not rather small?— It reflects the rate of progress over which we have not any control.

388. Galway County Council drew up a priority list for new water schemes. If the Gaeltacht scheme is not on top, I suppose there is nothing the Department can do?— We come in only when expenditure is incurred.

389. Can you directly accelerate the provision of water schemes in the Gaeltacht?— We have talked a lot to local authorities but I do not know whether we have been effective.

390. Do you think it would be possible to carry out the programme of work better if there was a separate list of priority schemes for the Gaeltacht areas and that your Department could deal with that list?— While it might be helpful to have a Gaeltacht priority list, that would raise a matter of policy in regard to the overall financing of schemes. At the moment our contribution—which is a supplementary one—is limited to 25 per cent.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 18—VALUATION AND ORDNANCE SURVEY.

Mr. J. Mooney called and examined.

391. Deputy Molloy.—Under subhead A— Salaries, Wages and Allowances—there have been savings. Does this mean there are vacancies on your staff at the moment?— Several vacancies arise but we fill them.

392. Do you have any difficulty filling them?—We have some difficulty in the case of valuers but in the case of clerical staff we do not experience much difficulty. Some clerical officers leave and there are vacancies among the female staff because of marriage but, generally speaking, we manage to fill vacancies. The question of vacancies is not a big problem.

393. Under Appropriations in Aid, I notice that the amount in respect of the sale of maps is still increasing?—It is going up. We always seem to underestimate in this respect. The figure realised is £40,000. There is an excess of £3,000 on the estimate. The provision in the current year’s estimate is £39,000 and we have the belief that it will be £42,000 for the coming financial year. You will see from Appendix A that the figure for the supply of maps and other services free to Government Departments is £64,000 and if you add the figures together you get a credit of something like £100,000, more than half the cost of the service.

394. Deputy Kenny.—How does an ordinary person apply for a particular map?— Do you mean large scale maps?

Yes.—If a person goes to the Government Publications sales offices they will get the map for him. Large scale maps take up a lot of space and the person might have to wait some time or go to the Ordnance Survey Section in the Phoenix Park.

395. Deputy Molloy.—Do you make available maps of the constituencies being drawn up? Do you do that work?—Yes, we can do that. The Ordnance Survey always try to help people. If people call to us directly we explain all the maps that are available, and so on.

396. Chairman.—Have town planning and urban renewal matters increased your sale of maps?—It should have a big bearing on it but in relation to town planning a lot of photographic maps are prepared which are of a different character to ours. They are based on air pictures. There is this organisation, An Foras Forbartha, which deals with planning. It has its own photo maps produced.

VOTE 19—RATES ON GOVERNMENT PROPERTY.

Mr. J. Mooney further examined.

397. Chairman.—On subhead B—Contributions towards Rates on Premises occupied by Representatives of External Governments —are we now getting full rates from all external Governments who have property here?—The difficulty in relation to the American authorities still persists. Negotiations are still in hand by the Department of External Affairs but there does not seem to be any immediate prospect of resolving the issue. For some reason or other the people from which you would expect the least difficulty is the one we get the most from. Ultimately, I am sure, they will pay up. We provide our share and pay it every year to the Corporation, but they are not getting the corresponding amount from the Americans. It is a matter of live horse and you will get grass.

398. Deputy Molloy.—The American Embassy do not pay any rates?—They dispute the basis of assessment.

399. We pay rates on our Embassy?—We pay on the same basis as in other cases.

400. Chairman.—How do the Americans treat us in America?—In America you pay no rates at all if you own the place. If you pay rent the rent may theoretically include an element in respect of rates. If we were renting a house in America there would be a theoretical amount included for rates and we would get no refund. I do not know what our tenure is in America, whether we own the buildings or not. I imagine we own them. They plead they have a grievance in that regard. Generally, they own the places here and they think they are not getting complete reciprocity.

Deputy Molloy.—They should abide by the laws of the country in which the Embassy is?—That is what we try to impress on them.

401. If an ordinary individual refused to pay rates he would soon find himself in court?—He is liable in law. They are not liable in law, no more than the State is here.

Mr. Suttle.—It is a question of reciprocity. We look for the same benefits from foreign Governments as they give our representatives in their own countries.

402. Deputy Molloy.—We are not getting any special treatment in America?

Mr. Suttle.—If you own property you do not pay rates at all. They say “You are not paying rates in America, why should we pay rates here?”

Mr. Mooney.—The Americans rest their case on an international convention made some time ago. They maintain that under the strict interpretation of this convention they are not liable to pay.

403. Deputy Molloy.—Did we sign the convention?—We are all party to the convention.

The witness withdrew.

The Committee adjourned at 12.50 p.m.

* See Appendix 15.

* See Appendix 16.

* See Appendix 17.