|
|
|
|
MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA(Minutes of Evidence)Déardaoin, 20 Aibreán, 1967.Thursday, 20th April, 1967.The Committee sat at 11 a.m.
Mr. E. F. Suttle (An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste) and Mr. J. R. Whitty (An Roinn Airgeadais) called and examined.VOTE 28—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION.Dr. T. Ó Raifeartaigh called and examined.684. Deputy Healy.—Regarding subhead C.1.—Purchase of Specimens (Grant-in-Aid)— and subhead C.2.—Fittings, Materials, etc.— relating to the National Museum, is that expenditure entirely for the equipment of the National Museum here in Dublin? Does it take into consideration any other branches outside Dublin? Do they ever lend their exhibits to any extent to Cork or any other centres with a museum, for instance, a municipal museum?—Dr. Ó Raifeartaigh.—It is not usual for the Museum to lend any of its very valuable exhibits for the reason that the number of surviving objects of art from ancient times in Ireland is very small. In fact, the really valuable ones are about six, the Cross of Cong, the Ardagh Chalice, the Tara Brooch, the Moylough Belt and one or two other items. Naturally, they are very delicate objects and there would be danger of their suffering damage. Even slight damage would be a terrible thing to all that is left from our ancient civilisation and so it is only rarely that the museum agrees to lend them out. 685. I can quite understand that in the case of these itemised articles of which the witness has spoken. May I take it that, unlike the National Gallery, there is nothing in the Museum stored away and out of sight and not on exhibition that might be useful to other centres—I do not mean things of the nature already mentioned but things of less importance?—There are things of less importance which we would have no objection to lending out, provided they were under the care of skilled museum people. We do lend those out occasionally, less important articles. 686. Are there any articles stored away and not on exhibit at all?—There are some, but they are not articles of great beauty generally. They are types of stone axes and that sort of thing. I was speaking originally of objects of art which have survived. I do not think the others would attract much attention in other parts of the country because other museums have such objects themselves. 687. The reason for my questions is that there is a museum in Cork which has a very good Curator. I should like to know whether he could, with any hope of success, request something that would not be of the type first mentioned by the Accounting Officer but something that would be of interest on loan over a certain period and sent back again, especially items which would not be on display in the National Museum. It would be a pity not to have them on display somewhere, would it not?—We would be prepared to do that but the museum in Dublin and the Museum in Cork are really scientific institutions. They are really for the scientific study of archaeological objects. I am not sure that there would be any great demand from anywhere for the type of object to which the Deputy refers. 688. Deputy Kenny.—On subhead C.3.— Archaeological Excavations (Grant-in-Aid)— are there any excavations in progress in any place in the country? £500 is a very small sum for such work, is it not?—Actually, this subhead is a new subhead to enable the Museum to plan its own programme of excavation and to undertake rescue excavations as they arise. Moneys are available for excavations generally but not under the Vote for the Department of Education. I understand that they come under the Vote for the Office of Public Works for special employment. This money is distributed, I understand, to the various professors and others in the universities—I think £5,000 or £6,000 per annum—and they carry out the excavations. For example, I understand that the Office of Public Works grant is being used at the Newgrange excavations. The Museum could, up to now, participate in that grant, but occasionally they are called upon to undertake rescue work rapidly and we felt we should have some subhead of our own for that. 689. I am just asking because for over three years they have been excavating at Ballintubber Abbey. That would be the Board of Works?— It would, if public money has been devoted to it. Deputy Kenny.—It has. Mr. Suttle.—It is on a recoupment basis and the Board of Works have to be refunded. 690. Chairman.—In regard to subhead G.4. —Adult Education Courses (Grant-in-Aid)— who actually gets the grant?— Dr. Ó Raifeartaigh.—A sum of £2,000 goes towards the expenses of the Catholic Workers’ College and £1,500 towards the expenses of the Dublin Institute of Catholic Sociology. The total amount is spent in Dublin?—Yes; we pay up to these sums towards their deficits and they produce audited accounts to us. 691. In regard to subhead G.9.—Student Exchange Scholarships—is this practice of exchange scholarships growing?—It is growing slowly. They are on a reciprocal basis and that is why they vary a little. There are seven countries to which we give scholarships and seven from which we receive one scholarship each in return. 692. Deputy Healy.—In regard to subhead G.10.—Expenses in connection with European Schools Day—what exactly is done in this case?—The money expended is for book prizes, the judging of essays, travel prizes, a scholarship to the International Committee and miscellaneous sums amounting to £15. What happens is that the Council of Europe has a competition among all the countries for an essay on some point of special European interest. Each country chooses its own best essays and then two or three of the best essays from each country are sent to a committee in Strasbourg, a general committee of the Council of Europe. They select the best essay in Europe. One of our students won the first prize in Europe the year before last for an essay on the European idea. Is there a special day designated for this and does it make any impact on the students?— There is a special day—I think it is 5th May. On that day the Minister for Education, or his representative, publicly presents the home prizes and the certificates for travel to Europe. The general European prizes are presented at Strasbourg. Chairman.—I think in addition the attention of the schools is drawn to that fact?—That is right; we circularise the schools about it. 693. In regard to subhead H.—Appropriations in Aid—the note on No. 4 states that the number of photographic reproductions sold was greater than expected. Is this in connection with the National Library or with the National Gallery?—The National Library. 694. In regard to the note which refers to the sum of £70 stolen from the National College of Art, was the culprit in this case ever discovered?—No. You have no idea how the theft was accomplished?—We do not know. After much investigation and assistance from the Garda, we had to ask the Department of Finance to have it written off and they agreed to that. 695. Deputy Healy.—In relation to the Accounts of Non-Voted Funds Administered by the Department of Education, set out on page 68, I see that there is a list of securities which were held on 31st March, 1966. How does it come about that these securities were held by the Department of Education? Mr. Suttle.—They are trust funds left to the Department to be administered for various purposes. Chairman.—Formerly they were accounted for seriatim. Mr. Suttle.—This is a combined account covering the whole of them. VOTE 29—PRIMARY EDUCATION.Dr. T. Ó Raifeartaigh further examined.696. Chairman.—Paragraph 34 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads: “Subhead A.1.—Training Colleges 34. Reference was made in paragraph 31 of the report for 1962-63 to a scheme for the construction of new premises and the conversion of existing buildings at St. Patrick’s Training College, Dublin. The entire cost of the work, estimated at £1,500,000, will be financed from voted moneys subject to the continued use of the premises for the training of national teachers or other approved educational purposes. The charge to the subhead includes £326,000 in respect of direct grants and £58,753 for principal and interest due in the year on a bank loan of £750,000 obtained by the college authorities. I have inquired regarding the completion of the formal agreement for the future use of the premises, the nature and extent of the check carried out by the Department on expenditure on the project and whether the works carried out conform to the plans and specifications approved by the Office of Public Works.” 697. Have you anything to add, Mr. Suttle? Mr. Suttle.—The work is being done under contract supervised by architects employed by the College. I have been informed by the Accounting Officer that the formal agreement with the College authorities has not yet been completed. The Office of Public Works has recently certified that generally the works carried out are in accordance with the plans and specifications approved. I have been furnished with details of the check by officers of the Department on expenditure on the project in the year 1965-66. 698. Chairman.—How does your current estimate of the work compare with the original estimate, Dr. Ó Raifeartaigh?—Dr. Ó Raifeartaigh.—The total cost is estimated at £1½ million and this was to be found, or rather half of it was to be found, by bank loan negotiated by the College authorities which would be repayable with interest over a period of 35 years. The other half was to be paid in block capital sums by the Department. It is keeping fairly close to the original estimate. Chairman.—The original estimate was in the region of £1¼ million?—Of course we have not yet got the final figure. The principal of the College is in consultation with the architects at the moment about that. 699. In regard to these estimates, a matter that we have considered from time to time is the question of architects and professional fees. Could you say offhand what the figures for architects’ and professional fees will be?—I have here a statement from the officer of the Department who examined the account and the itemised expenditure includes, I see, an item for the year 1965-66 of £10,847 for architects’ fees. That is just for that year?—Yes. You have no idea of the total fees?—I cannot yet tell you that. Could you supply that information?—Yes, Mr. Chairman.* We should be glad to have that and also the surveyors’ and other professional fees generally in connection with that work. 700. Deputy Burke.—Will there be many architects employed?—Only one firm. Chairman.—The Office of Public Works was not able to do this job. We can now turn to the Vote itself on page 70. 701. Deputy Healy.—On subhead A.4.— Special Courses for Teachers of Physically and Mentally Handicapped Children—I understand on the last occasion we examined this the number of teachers doing the course was 14. Is there any change in the number in the year under review?—There were 18 national teachers and three other teachers at the course at St. Patrick’s Training College in the year under review, and three other teachers attended a course for teachers of handicapped children. That is 21. That is very welcome news. 702. Deputy Kenny.—How are teachers recruited for schools for retarded children?— We nearly always take them from the ranks of people who are already trained as national teachers. If they have a bent or leaning towards teaching in Special Schools, they may apply to the Training College to be allowed on the course and then the College in consultation with the Department decides on priorities, not necessarily in relation to the qualification or claims of a particular teacher, but rather to the priority of the areas where there might be a new School very badly needed or something of that kind. We recoup in full the salaries of the substitutes employed by these teachers during their attendance at courses and also the course fees, and pay those teachers who have qualified in this course a special annual bonus of £95. In April, 1965, and these are the last published figures, we had 48 Special Schools with 3,265 children on the rolls and 224 teachers. Deputy Burke.—And, of course, a large number on the waiting list?—Yes. 703. Chairman.—That is unfortunately true. On subhead B.—Examinations—have you any figure to show how much is spent on Primary Certificate examinations, how much of these fees?—The figure for the cost of the Primary Certificate examination is £5,780. 704. Deputy Burke.—On subhead C.3.— Transport Services—I suppose that will be an expanding service now?—I should expect so. 705. Deputy Crowley.—On subject C.6.— Grants towards the Cost of Heating, Cleaning and Painting of Schools—who makes the claim for these grants?—The manager is the applicant. Is there anybody else who can make a claim to the Department if the manager does not make it?—No. We deal only with the manager. 706. Deputy Burke.—In the case of the manager being lackadaisical—which we have often found— Chairman.—I think Deputy Burke is asking the Accounting Officer to indulge in opinions. Deputy Burke.—I want to make the point clear that a public representative is often pushed by his constituents and gets in touch with the Department. In these circumstances can you send an inspector? Chairman.—I am afraid these are matters for the Minister rather than the Accounting Officer. 707. Deputy Crowley.—Under this subhead if the manager makes a claim for the concession of a grant, what percentage, usually, is that grant of the total cost involved?—The heating grants are generally paid in accordance with the size of the school and the system of heating used. They vary, therefore, from £8 to £14 per annum for a one-teacher school. With that as a basis, the increases vary from £6 to £9 per school according to each additional teacher on the recognised staff. 708. Is there any system of inspection by your Department to check up that there is adequate heating in the schools and that the schools are being kept clean and in proper condition?—Yes. The inspectors report on that. It is one of the duties of inspectors to make such reports. 709. Deputy Crowley.—I should like to make an observation here, if it is in order. Certainly, in some of the schools I have seen, somebody is falling down very badly. Chairman.—We shall hear all of this in the Dáil on the debate on the Estimate for the Department of Education. Deputy Burke.—It is not our intention to embarrass the Accounting Officer. Dr. Ó Raifeartaigh.—Not in the least. Deputy Burke.—I have asked too many questions. Chairman.—We must keep to the procedure of the Committee on Public Accounts. 710. Deputy Crowley.—We have had a spate of deputations, parents’ meetings, and so on, in various schools throughout the country. The condition of some of these schools has been absolutely deplorable. Does the Department ensure that, if a manager gets a grant under this head, it is spent?—We pay it only on vouched expenditure. 711. Deputy Healy.—What seems to me to be worth attention is the fact that £38,000 less was spent than anticipated because there was nobody to claim it. That seems to indicate that there must be 100 per cent perfection in most of the schools if everybody is doing his job properly?—Perhaps I should say that sometimes a school might be on the way to being closed altogether—that happens occasionally—and the manager says, for example: “Well, the school will not be here in 12 months’ time, perhaps. It will be amalgamated.” That could happen. 712. Chairman.—Subhead C.5.—Free Grants of School Requisites—refers to the libraries scheme. Is the Accounting Officer satisfied with the progress being made?—It is going very well indeed, Mr. Chairman. We took the country by areas. In 1963-64 we covered five counties with the scheme, supplying books to national schools. In 1964-65 the scheme was introduced to ten more counties and in 1965-66 a further six counties were covered. In 1966-67, four new counties were covered. If my arithmetic is correct, that leaves only one more county (and one city) to be done next year. Yes, it is going very well. And we have received very active and willing co-operation from the county librarians. 713. Deputy Crowley.—Subhead C.7. refers to Grants towards the Cost of Free School Books for Necessitous Children. Do you envisage a big increase under this heading in the next 12 months?—This is necessitous children, really. Chairman.—I think the Deputy is thinking in terms of an increase in expenditure for the provision of free books. This subhead refers to necessitous children. Deputy Crowley.—Will “necessitous” be interpreted as including those who cannot afford to buy the books? Chairman.—A literal interpretation. Deputy Burke.—Is it not the teachers who make the recommendation? Deputy Kenny.—It is indeed. This is only for national schools. Perhaps Deputy Crowley is thinking of secondary schools. The scheme is already in operation in the national schools. 714. Deputy Burke.—At no time is the teacher turned down? The teacher’s word is taken at all times? We were just asking whether there is any dispute when the teacher recommends that a child or children should get free books?—Actually, the grant is 1/- per pupil and it may be increased to 1/4d. in necessitous Gaeltacht areas or in county borough schools where 50 per cent of the children are held to be necessitous. The decision of the teacher is always taken in a case of that kind?—I think so. He applies through the manager and he and the manager decide on that. Chairman.—Are you satisfied, Deputy Crowley? Deputy Crowley.—I am not, but there is nothing that can be done about it. Chairman.—I think the mechanics of the matter are a different thing. The witness has given us the information. I think I am still correct in saying that a record has to be kept of the books issued and that they have to last for a number of years?—Yes. The record is kept. VOTE 30—SECONDARY EDUCATION.Mr. T. Ó Raifeartaigh further examined.715. Chairman.—Paragraph 35 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads: “Subhead A.1.—Capitation Grant (including Teachers’ Salaries Grant) 35. A limited test audit of payments made in the year under review revealed a number of overpayments and I inquired regarding the nature and extent of the check carried out by the Department on claims for grants.” 716. Have you anything to add to that, Mr. Suttle? Mr. Suttle.—The test check carried out by my auditors, which covered about six per cent. of grants paid, disclosed overpayments totalling £130. The Accounting Officer has stated that the departmental check of attendance was reduced so as to divert staff to examination work earlier in the year. He stated that the Department’s experience was that claims were usually correct and that additional staff would be required if a 100 per cent check were to be carried out. We felt that that a 100 per cent check could be carried out by one officer in a week. Dr. Ó Raifeartaigh.—Usually the amounts are very small; but it is not at all a simple affair. This is the money payable in relation to each pupil, the capitation grant, payable to a secondary school, and there are a large number of small matters which arise. For example, there is the question of whether a particular student has attended a particular number of days and there is a difference in the capitation grant if he has attended for 160 days, 130 days and so on. The question may also arise of a student transferring in the middle of the year from one school to another. Then, even the claims made by the schools may contain original errors. When you are dealing with over 100,000 individual claims it is not easy to watch every single one of them. We feel that to carry out a 100 per cent check we would require additional staff. Also, against the losses incurred, if any—there might be gains sometimes too. Losses would be thrown against the salaries of more than one officer and in the long run it would scarcely be worth while. Mr. Suttle.—I do not know whether the man I had on the job was very quick or something of a genius, but his estimate in regard to the work was that he could carry out a 100 per cent check of all that was necessary in one week. He did a six per cent check in a very short time but he estimated he could have done the whole lot in a week. Dr. Ó Raifeartaigh.—On the other hand, he is a professional checker whereas our officers have many other duties to carry out. Mr. Suttle.—I do not know how many of my staff are engaged on this work. About three members of my staff will examine all the accounts connected with the Department of Education together with the Department of the Gaeltacht and the Stationery Office. Three men do that in twelve months. The amount of time spent on this particular departmental expenditure is possibly just a couple of days. 717. Deputy Crowley.—Would Mr. Suttle agree that spot checking is the most efficient form of doing this type of auditing? After all, if you are going to look through all the items it will involve a lot of time and expenditure. Mr. Suttle.—A six per cent check is very high from our point of view. Normally we would do less than a one per cent check. A six per cent check was carried out because this was an easy job to do. The man on the job said he could do the whole lot in one week. He saw this number of mistakes in his six per cent check and he said: “This is sufficient as far as I am concerned; we will raise the matter with the Accounting Officer.” 718. Deputy P. Byrne.—Are there any internal audits within the Department?—Yes. there are. Dr. Ó Raifeartaigh.—The six per cent check which the Auditor General says is very high produced thirteen pupils in respect of whom an error had been made, out of 100,000. In one case the school manager certified afterwards that this pupil had been doing approved courses during the session. His name had inadvertently been omitted from the October list and actually the payment was in order in the end, in that case. There was another case where the pupil had been claimed for twice, by mistake, under two schedules. That was not spotted by our departmental officers. It is terribly difficult to be 100 per cent certain of 100,000 grants. Mr. Suttle.—Perhaps you could have another look at the position in regard to checking. This man’s view was that you could turn over 90 per cent of the material as quite obviously it was all right and that it was just the odd one which it was necessary to look at. You look at that odd case and that only takes a short time. On that basis, he felt it could be done very quickly. If you had another look at the position you might change your view. It would be worthwhile looking at it. Dr. Ó Raifeartaigh.—We would be very glad to do that. 719. Deputy Crowley.—Does Dr. Ó Raifeartaigh think that the detection of error, two per cent. in that case, was high, if six per cent. was examined? Mr. Suttle.—There were thirteen cases. There are 100,000 and he did a six per cent check in which there were 13 errors. 720. Chairman.—Paragraph 36 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads: “Subhead K.—Comprehensive Schools 36. £160,000 was provided under this subhead towards the cost of three comprehensive schools to be built at Cootehill, Carraroe and Shannon Airport. Because the Commissioners of Public Works were unable to undertake the planning and supervision of the project the Department appointed private architects on a fee basis and employed contractors for the execution of the works. Up to 31 March 1966, payments made in respect of the three schools totalled £159,084 including £49,752 for professional fees. I have inquired regarding the nature and extent of the supervision exercised over the performance of the contracts and also whether formal contracts have been completed with the builders.” 721. Have you anything to add to this, Mr. Suttle? Mr. Suttle.—I have been informed that the building inspector of the Department of Education was given the responsibility of supervising the performance of the contracts, that he inspected the works on a number of occasions and examined the monthly progress reports furnished by the architects. I was also informed that on the completion of Stage 1 of the contracts, the Office of Public Works were asked to have the works inspected by their architectural staff and have agreed to do so. Formal contracts with the builders of the three schools at Cootehill, Carraroe and Shannon Airport have been signed. 722. I take it that the building inspector is a qualified architect, Dr. Ó Raifeartaigh? Dr. Ó Raifeartaigh.—He is not an architect but he has been a very successful headmaster of a vocational school, in relation to the teaching of building, and later he organised our building teacher courses. We are satisfied that he is fully conversant with school building. While not an architect, he is an expert in relation to school building, both the building and educational aspects of it. 723. Chairman.—The Auditor General mentioned Stage 1. What significance has that? —The schools were built in two stages. They were urgently required and we wanted to have them brought to a point where even though not completed they could be occupied and used as schools. That was Stage 1. 724. Has the inspection by the architects of the Office of Public Works been done yet? —Yes. The Office of Public Works is satisfied and has notified us to that effect. 725. Will the cost of running these schools fall completely on your Vote or will some of it come from county vocational education committees’ resources?—It will fall technically on our Vote but we will receive some recoupment from the vocational education committees. 726. Deputy Kenny.—What qualifications will be necessary for teachers in the comprehensive schools?—There are no absolutely cut and dried qualifications but the teachers are all drawn from the ranks of people who are already teachers, national, vocational or secondary. In some cases we have absorbed existing small schools with their staffs. 727. Deputy Byrne.—On subhead F— Courses for Secondary Teachers—could we be told something about it? Are these summer courses?—The Estimate provided £8,100 which was broken down into £750 for one week refresher courses in domestic science, history, geography, chemistry, physics and music. Then we had £4,320 for courses in mathematics. We ran three university evening courses for teachers throughout the year and three one-week courses, six three-week courses and three one-week summer courses. These were for secondary teachers in connection with the new programme in mathematics. Also we had one three-week course in biology, a subject which we have just introduced into the secondary school programme. Finally, there was £3,030 for one four-week course in French and one in German and a general refresher course in German. 728. Are there charges made for participation in these courses?—In the cases of the French and German courses we provided half the cost and the teacher paid the other half. This will not be so in future as we are arranging that the Department will pay the total fees. 729. Deputy Crowley.—Does your Department envisage that the stage will be reached of paying the full cost of university education for teachers? Suppose there is a teacher with a B.A. who wants to get an M.A. or a Doctorate? —I could not say at present. It happens in some countries but I do not remember that we have done it yet. I would not say that we shall never do it. 730. Suppose a secondary teacher applied to the Department for financial aid to advance his studies by way of grant or loan, have you any facilties for accommodating him?—We have not yet such facilities. Our difficulty about it would not be the small sum of money involved, I should think, but the invidious nature of the choice. If we were to do that for one secondary teacher, why should we not do it for 100 more? Generally in such matters that is our difficulty. But we do not close the door against its happening in future. I really cannot say. Chairman.—I fear we are going outside the Estimate and asking the Accounting Officer hypothetical questions. Deputy Crowley.—They are perhaps hypothetical but I did want to clear up the point whether or not there are facilities of this kind at the moment even in extraordinary circumstances. Chairman.—My difficulty is in trying to control the procedure and we might, if we were to pursue that, be putting the Accounting Officer in a false position. 731. Deputy Byrne.—On subhead G.— Payment to the Secondary Teachers’ Pension Fund—is this a new item? It is obviously a token provision. One wonders if it will develop. What is it about?—This fund is really made up of five per cent. contributions plus payment of arrears on the part of teachers who entered the scheme or were given the opportunity of entering it later. We had one amendment to the Act in 1951 and another in 1956. What is happening now is that the fund was very buoyant for the time while all those arrears were coming in, but in recent years the income of the fund has not been sufficient to meet expenditure and so it has been decided, with the agreement of the Department of Finance, to meet the deficiency each year during these years by realising stock. That is why we have only a token in the subhead. 732. Has the fund yet been subject to actuarial valuation and report?—No, but we are in consultation with the Department of Finance about that. 733. When one hears the fund is realising investments, it seems to indicate that it is in pretty low water?—Yes. In a year or two the existing stocks will probably be exhausted —I should think in about two years. Mr. Suttle.—Does the secondary teachers’ pension scheme not provide that the Minister should make good any deficiency in the fund? Dr. Ó Raifeartaigh.—Yes. Mr. Suttle.—So that in effect the question of actuarial assessment is not vital?—That is true. Teachers’ pensions are in no danger whatever in relation to it. Deputy Byrne.—I see. Thank you. 734. Deputy Kenny.—With regard to subhead I.—Modern Language Teaching Aids— are all secondary schools eligible for these teaching aid grants, and what form do they take?—We pay to the school the cost of tape recorders and tapes and records —up to 50 per cent. of the actual cost or £100 whichever is the lower. There is provision for an extra £50 where there are more than eight classes doing a modern language and up to £25 extra where more than one modern language is taught. The expenditure in that particular year was not as great as expected because the claims did not mature within the school year but we expect that it will be up very considerably in the succeeding year. VOTE 31—VOCATIONAL EDUCATION.Dr. T. Ó Raifeartaigh further examined.735. Deputy Byrne.—With regard to subhead E.—Contribution to Macra na Tuaithe (Grant-in-Aid)—could we be informed if Macra na Tuaithe submit audited accounts to the Department?—Yes, they do. VOTE 32—REFORMATORY AND INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS.Dr. T. O Raifeartaigh further examined.736. Deputy Byrne.—Subhead B. refers to Industrial Schools. What is the rate of maintenance paid for a youngster, say, in Artane?—The weekly rates of maintenance grants are 35/- by the State and 32/6d. by the local authorities, a total of £3 7s 6d per head per week. Has this been increased in recent years?— The last time it was increased was in 1965. Deputy Byrne.—I seem to recall having spoken with one of the Brothers in Artane— it was probably prior to 1965. I know that, at that time, they were very dissatisfied with the rate of maintenance they were getting but I think it was substantially less than 67/6d per week. Thank you. 737. Deputy Crowley.—I should like to ask if the Accounting Officer has any information on St. Patrick’s Reformatory in Upton. It was closed down as an industrial school. Have you anything else in mind for the school?—I cannot say that at the moment. Deputy Crowley.—The priests there are very worried. They have a big premises and a lot of land. They are not getting any income whatsoever. Chairman.—I am afraid Deputy Crowley is becoming an adept at slipping in questions. I am afraid, again, I shall have to overrule his question. I could not allow that one to go. Deputy Crowley.—I just thought that the Accounting Officer might like to make some comments. Chairman.—I think the Minister would prefer to make them. Deputy Crowley.—The Minister will not, unfortunately. He has been pressed pretty hard, as the Accounting Officer probably knows. VOTE 33—UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGES AND DUBLIN INSTITUTE FOR ADVANCED STUDIES.Dr. T. O Raifeartaigh further examined.738. Deputy Byrne.—Subhead B. refers to University College, Dublin. In connection with universities generally, can the Comptroller and Auditor General advise us if he carries out an audit? Mr. Suttle.—Under the Universities Act, 1908, we have a statutory duty to audit the accounts of the universities. In 1922, the practice with the British at that time was that the commercial auditors carried out a normal audit of the accounts of the universities and the Comptroller and Auditor General carried out possibly a second audit but it was a matter for his own discretion. Since that time, we have carried out audits from time to time but not regularly every year. I think that, in the year under review, we did have an examination of the accounts of University College, Dublin. This year, we propose to go to Cork. However, we accept the accounts certified by commercial auditors in the normal course and then check from our own point of view every few years. Deputy Byrne.—It seems quite a suitable arrangement. Mr. Suttle.—It is a practice which was taken over from the British in 1922 and we carry on from that. 739. Deputy Healy.—On subhead C.— University College, Cork—is there any explanation as to why the grant-in-aid was not fully spent or why there was less expenditure than anticipated on the new science building? Was there some unavoidable delay or was it just a natural development in any big building?— No. When we estimated originally, we expected, I think, that the work would begin earlier in the year. Negotiations went on and the final release did not come as early as expected and so, simply, the money provided did not manage to get entirely spent in that year but it was carried on into the next year and the building is going on at the moment. 740. On subhead H.—Dublin Dental Hospital—does that bring the Dublin Dental Hospital up to the required standard now? Is any more expenditure anticipated on the present building? Mr. Suttle.—It is an annual grant. 741. Deputy Healy.—Is this the full amount paid to the Dental Hospital in Dublin? Is there any other heading under which it gets grants for building or renovations? Has this anything to do with wages and salaries for the increased staff they have there? Mr. Suttle.—This is just to meet the deficiency in running expenses. They got capital moneys last year but the money this year is purely to meet the running expenses of the school. It does not provide for capital expenditure. They do get additional money from the Hospitals Trust Fund. Deputy Healy.—This deficiency varies from year to year?—It does. 742. Deputy Crowley.—Is there any grant for the Cork Dental Hospital or are they self-sufficient, Dr. Ó Raifeartaigh?—Dr. Ó Raifeartaigh.—Under subhead C. there was a sum of £10,000 for the purchase of a site for the new Dental Hospital in Cork but arrangements were not completed by the end of the year so that that is part of the saving in relation to University College, Cork. 743. Deputy Healy.—The deficit in the working of the Cork Dental Hospital comes from the Department of Health, as far as I know?—I should explain, in relation to University College, Cork, that the grant is not earmarked especially. In Dublin the Dental Hospital is separate from the three teaching universities. Cork comes under the general grant but this capital sum was earmarked. Deputy Crowley.—It would be allocated from the general grant?—Yes. Deputy Healy.—I do not think so. They would pay the professorial staff but as the Dental Hospital is part of the North Infirmary, all other expenses would come under the Department of Health. The witness withdrew. VOTE 5—COMPTROLLER AND AUDITOR GENERAL.M. K. M. Fowler called and examined.744. Deputy Byrne.—In regard to subhead A.—Salaries, Wages and Allowances—about how many people are employed at present?— It varies between 45 and 50. The establishment is increasing every year I suppose?—No. Deputy Kenny.—They are becoming faster. Mr. Suttle.—We should like to increase the staff but it is very difficult to recruit suitable people. 745. Deputy Byrne.—You are not paying them enough? Mr. Suttle.—That is our difficulty. We cannot go beyond the normal Civil Service rates of pay and in effect we are competing with people in the commercial world. 746. You have been recruiting more professional accountants in recent years?— Mr. Suttle.—No. We could not compete. We tried some years ago but only two men turned up for the interview. Neither of them had any experience at all. We just could not get professional accountants and that was in a case where we were offering more than the normal salary. Our present method of recruitment is to take Executive Officers straight from the Civil Service examination. We train them ourselves and encourage them to take additional qualifications. In the last few years we recruited 11 and we find them extremely good. 747. Deputy Crowley.—Do you lose many of them? Mr. Suttle.—We lose some of them. Mr. Fowler.—The trouble is that as soon as they are qualified and have a certain amount of experience, they try to get out and do better for themselves. In the last 12 months we lost two. Deputy Healy.—Every business nowadays has to have an accountant and therefore the opportunities for professional men are very much greater outside. Mr. Suttle.—Even within our Department, where we train our men and build them up to excellent men, it is the State bodies which take them from us. We audit the accounts of these concerns and they get to know the men and offer them more. Deputy Burke.—It is a good jumping off ground for them. 748. Deputy Briscoe.—What would be the grade of a qualified accountant going into the Civil Service, Mr. Fowler?—Mr. Fowler.—A professional accountant would be somewhat less than a Higher Executive Officer. His maximum would be less than £2,000 perhaps £1,800 or £1,900 a year. Our structure is different in this respect in that we have been taking in Executive Officers and encouraging them to do the examinations of the approved accountancy bodies. When they get the intermediate stage of those examinations, we give them one special increment and when they get the final stage, we give them two further special increments. That is all we can do within the pay structure. 749. Would the answer not be to up-grade the accountants?— Mr. Suttle.—No; to recruit a man of the standard we require we could not offer less than £3,000 and that would be going away beyond even our highest grades. Deputy Briscoe.—It calls for a special grade. Mr. Suttle.—There is no point in taking in men who have just barely made the examination. We want men with special skills. We find that young men coming in from schools, to whom we give training in the office and whom we encourage to take outside qualifications, turn into excellent material from our point of view, but then there is the tendency to lose them. Deputy Healy.—You only lose a small percentage. After all you keep most of them. Mr. Suttle.—We do. Chairman.—We are very much obliged to you, Mr. Fowler. The witness withdrew. Chairman.—I am deeply obliged to the members of the Committee. We have completed the Appropriation Accounts given to us and we shall have the report later. The Committee will then meet to deal with the matter and that finishes the task of the Committee. I should like, therefore, to take the opportunity of thanking the members. Deputy Healy.—I should like also to thank you, Mr. Chairman. If I may say so, you make an excellent Chairman and made our job easy and pleasant. Deputy Briscoe.—I should like to add my voice to that. I should also like to compliment Mr. Suttle on how easy he has made our task and on the clear way he answered our questions, especially as he was explaining to ordinary laymen who do not understand so much about figures. Deputy Burke.—I should like to be associated with those remarks also. The Committee adjourned. * See Appendix XLV. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
