Committee Reports > List of Committees > Dáil > 1966 > Committee of Public Accounts > Interim and Final Report - Appropriation Accounts 1964 - 1965

MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA

(Minutes of Evidence)

Dé Céadaoin, 8 Meitheamh, 1966.

Wednesday, 8th June, 1966.

The Committee sat at 11 a.m.

DEPUTY JONES in the chair.

Mr. E. F. Suttle (An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste) and Mr. J. Whelan (An Roinn Airgeadais) called and examined.

GENERAL REPORT.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker called and examined.

79. Chairman.—Paragraph 1 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“General

Outturn of the year

(Adjusted to the nearest £)

1. The audited accounts are summarised on page xxxi. The amount to be surrendered as shown in the summary is £5,550,484 arrived at as follows:—

This represents 2.6 per cent. of the supply previous year.”

Have you anything to add to that, Mr. Suttle?

Mr. Suttle.—These paragraphs are for the information of the Committee. This is the grants as compared with 2.7 per cent. in the summary of the total expenditure for the year.

80. Chairman.—Paragraph 2 deals with Excess Votes. We will be dealing with them on the relevant Votes.

Paragraph 3 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Exchequer Extra Receipts

3. Extra receipts payable to the Exchequer as recorded in the appropriation accounts amounted to £1,843,039.”

81. Paragraph 4 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Surrender of Balances on 1963-64 Votes

4. The balances due to be surrendered out of the votes for the public services for 1963-64 amounted to £4,684,253. I hereby certify that these balances have been duly surrendered.”

82. Paragraph 5 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Stock and Store Accounts

5. The stock and store accounts of the Departments have been examined with generally satisfactory results.”

83. Paragraph 6 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“National Development Fund (Winding up) Account

6. As indicated in paragraph 7 of the previous report the balance in the Winding up Account at 31 March 1964 was £593,443 (including £12,108 in the hands of agent Departments). Issues to agent Departments in the year amounted to £165,047 viz.:—

Statements are appended to the accounts of the relevant votes indicating the expenditure incurred on the various projects during the year under review. The total expenditure on these projects since the establishment of the Fund to 31 March 1965 was as follows:—

Expenditure on projects carried out by local authorities is examined by Local Government auditors whose reports are made available to me.

The balance in the Winding up Account at 31 March 1965 was £421,630 (including £5,341 in the hands of agent Departments).”

How long do you think this National Development Fund will be with us, Mr. Whitaker?—We are coming very close to the time when we could wind it up. The projects which are still alive will not call for very much more expenditure. At the end of the present financial year, we expect that there will be only two projects in operation—the Shannon Flooding Relief Scheme and Orchard Planting. A small expenditure would complete both these projects. At 31st March, 1966, there was a balance in the Fund of approximately £365,000 and the final unspent balance is expected to be about £350,000.

84. Paragraph 7 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“7. Statement of Receipts into and Issues out of The Central Fund for the Year Ended 31 March, 1965:

Repayments in respect of Issues under the following Acts:—

Money Raised by Creation of Debt:—

Issues under the following Acts:—

Issues for the Redemption of Public Debt:—

85. In regard to the repayments in respect of issues under certain Acts, there is £300,000 in respect of the Agricultural Credit Acts and £300,000 in respect of the Transport Act and £1 million in respect of the Industrial Credit Acts. I presume these were not normal repayments of advances?—Mr. Whitaker—That is right. They represent not normal repayments but the refund to the Exchequer of moneys that we had issued in the year. We have an arrangement, a kind of fluid arrangement, with some of these bodies, whereby excess funds held by them as a result of their borrowing operations are used to repay earlier borrowings from the Exchequer. We can also borrow funds from them and pay them back as they require. There is a constant interflow of short-term money between us.

Is that same fluid procedure there at all times?—Yes.

86. Deputy P. Hogan (South Tipperary)— What is constituted by “Ways and Means Advances”?—It is a very ancient term and it first meant advances which came, in the olden times, from the Bank of England or the Bank of Ireland to help finance the temporary needs of the Exchequer. They are a supplement to Exchequer Bill borrowing. Now the term has been extended to cover advances which may not be strictly short-term from funds like the Post Office Savings Bank or the Social Insurance Fund to the Exchequer. The terms of the advances are of course, fixed in relation both to the period of the borrowing and to prevailing interest rates.

Are the terms published regularly?—In the Finance Accounts there is an account of the Ways and Means Advances. One big element in the total was the taking into the Exchequer of the proceeds of the Marshall Aid loan. All that money came into the Exchequer under the guise of Ways and Means Advances.

87. Deputy P. Hogan (South Tipperary)— Have they increased much in recent years?— They have been increasing all the time. The last Finance Accounts we have here show that the amount outstanding on the 31st March, 1965, was £140.6 million. The advances during that year, 1964-65, amounted to £57.5 million. Of course there were advances repaid during the year which are to be offset against that in part. The net increase in the year was from £128.8 million to £140.6 million which, I think, is about £12 million. This net increase in the year 1964-65 of £12 million would have come mainly from accounts like the Post Office Savings Bank.

Was there an increase in the Exchequer Bills also during the year?—Yes. Borrowing by Exchequer Bills increased by £13.5 million.

88. Deputy Andrews.—Under the heading “Other Borrowings” on the Receipts side, could Mr. Whitaker give some indication as to how the £14 million was made up? Where did these borrowings come from? What do they constitute?—We should first look at it as a net figure. There are issues on the other side for repayment of £8.47 million so that the net draw was roughly £5 million under the heading “Other Borrowings”. This represents in the main borrowings that we make from State bodies like the ESB. If the ESB has had a public issue of stock and raises £5—6 million, then for a period the money can be borrowed by the Exchequer for other purposes and paid back according as the Board needs it.

Deputy Molloy.—This is normal practice and has been going on for many years?—For quite a number of years, ever since the State bodies like the ESB, Bord na Móna and CIE have been empowered to issue stock themselves. They always have to issue stock for a sizeable amount at a time and find themselves often not immediately needing all the money, but the Exchequer is almost always in need of money and can afford to cover the interest paid by the original borrower, use the money and then pay it back when the original borrower needs it.

Deputy Healy.—I take it the semi-State or State bodies do not make profit on the transaction. Is it only the interest that is paid back by the Exchequer?—What we normally do is guarantee them against loss. We take the money from them at what they have to pay for it; no profit is given.

89. Deputy Andrews.—What is the situation in relation to servicing during the current bank strike?

Chairman.—That is related to the situation of the moment and we are only dealing with the Appropriation Accounts for 1964-65.

Deputy Molloy.—Can we not inquire if a similar situation had existed what would have happened?

Chairman.—Dealing with such questions will take us away from what we are doing. The Accounting Officer has to account for this one year and not for anything else. Any other question can be asked in the House on these matters.

VOTE 1—PRESIDENT’S ESTABLISHMENT.

VOTE 2—HOUSES OF THE OIREACHTAS.

VOTE 3—DEPARTMENT OF THE TAOISEACH.

VOTE 6—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE—EXCESS VOTES.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.

90. Chairman.—Before we take Vote 1, Deputies will see that paragraph 2 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General deals with excess votes. It reads as follows:

“Excess Votes

2. Excess votes will be required in the cases set out below in which expenditure over and above the provision made by the Oireachtas was incurred, viz.:—

Owing to the dissolution of the Dáil on 18 March, 1965, it was not possible to complete the financial procedures in connection with supplementary estimates for Votes 1, 2, 3, 6 and 21.

The excess expenditure on Vote 35 was mainly due to expenditure arising out of the exhibition held in connection with the centenary of the Gallery.”

We shall deal with Votes Nos. 1, 2, 3, and 6 today. The excess on the other Votes was dealt with at the last meeting of the Committee. Authority is needed for the payment of the extra amounts which have arisen. Owing to the dissolution of the Dáil on March 18th, 1965, it was not possible to complete the financial procedures. We shall bring the matter to the notice of the Dáil by means of an interim report.

Deputy Healy.—Am I right in suggesting that if the Dáil had not dissolved at the particular time these amounts would have been met another way?

Chairman.—That did not happen and, consequently, it must now be set right.

Deputy P. Hogan (South Tipperary).—Is this the first time this happened?

Chairman.—No, it happened before.

Mr. Whitaker.—Leave to introduce had been granted in the Dáil but then the dissolution set everything at nought.

VOTE 1—PRESIDENT’S ESTABLISHMENT.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.

91. Chairman.—The excess we have considered is attributable in the main to Subhead B—Travelling and Incidental Expenses. Is that not so?—Yes, the excess is due to an official visit by the President to the United States of America and Canada.

92. Deputy Molloy.—On Subhead D— Motor Cars—Replacement (Grant-in-Aid)—at £750—can we inquire how many cars are being maintained in this establishment?

Chairman.—The Deputy will notice this is a Grant-in-Aid and wherever there is a Grant-in-Aid we do not inquire into it once the Certifying Officer certifies it is paid out.

Deputy Molloy.—May I inquire how many cars are being maintained?—

Mr. Suttle.—This is a private matter for the President. He gets £750 a year to supply himself with cars and the number of cars he has has nothing to do with the Accounting Officer.

Deputy Molloy.—Can I not be told how many cars there are?—

Chairman.—On this Committee we cannot inquire into how Grants-in-Aid are being used.

Deputy Healy.—It would all depend on the type of car the President keeps.

Chairman.—I am not cutting you short, Deputy, but I am just saying that the Accounting Officer is not here to explain these matters and you can get this information elsewhere.

Deputy Molloy.—I accept the ruling of the Chair.

VOTE 2—HOUSES OF THE OIREACHTAS.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.

93. Deputy Molloy.—In regard to Subhead A.—Salaries of Holders of certain Appointed Offices and Allowances of Comhaltaí—the explanatory note says that the cost of the increase was offset to some extent by the dissolution of the Dáil on 18th March, 1965. Could you tell us how the dissolution helped this?—Once the Dáil dissolves, Deputies cease to be entitled to these allowances.

How much roughly was saved during that period?—I have not worked that out.

Chairman.—I presume between £5,000 and £6,000, or about 1/26th?—About that.

94. Chairman.—I take it in regard to Subhead B.—Travelling Expenses of Comhaltaí—that the saving was due to the dissolution of the Dáil on 18th March?—That was one reason. There was a further reason, that owing to the building operations there were fewer sittings of the Dáil in the year.

95. In regard to Subhead H.—Expenses of the Restaurant (Grant-in-Aid)—has it been certified?—The certified loss, for the year 1964/65 was, I understand, £4,057 which was considerably more than the £3,000 grant-in-aid. The provision for the current year, 1966/67, has been increased to £4,500 because of the rising trend in the losses.

96. Deputy Briscoe.—In regard to Subhead I.—Allowances to certain Former Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas—is this just dealing with certain hardship cases?—Yes, it deals with hardship cases. I understand there are now only seven.

Chairman.—There is a note about this on page 4.

Deputy Healy.—The note says “Saving due to the number of new pensions awarded being less than expected”.—There were fewer new cases of hardship to be dealt with than had been expected when the provision was made. New pensioners are taken on only if they are cases of hardship.

Deputy Healy.—May I take it that there is provision every year for such a contingency?

Chairman.—The Comptroller and Auditor General tells me that, under the new pension scheme, this will tend to die out completely.

Deputy Healy.—We do not set aside a sum now for new pensions for hardship cases?—A small sum had been set aside in these years in the expectation that new cases would arise. What the position is for 1966/67 I cannot recall at the moment.

97. Deputy Andrews.—I should like to ask why provision was not made for the sum of £20,000, under subhead E, as mentioned in the Notes, and I should also like to ask for what this sum was utilised?—This is a point that arises on a good many Votes because it was a year in which there was an increase in remuneration. In fact, there were two kinds of increases, the ninth round increase and the so-called status increase. As the claims for these increases were not settled at the time the original Estimates were prepared, the bulk of the money required was provided in an omnibus Supplementary Estimate for Remuneration. In some cases provision was made in a Supplementary Estimate for the particular service.

Could we have a break-down of the £20,000, or is that possible?—I have that information. Roughly half of the £20,000 was for the ninth round increase and the other half was for the status increase. The total cost of salaries of Oireachtas staff in the year 1964/65 was £108,105, of which £88,105 was borne on this Vote and the remaining £20,000 on the Vote for Remuneration.

98. Could I ask the meaning of “status”? —The answer is that it is a very misleading term. This was an increase given to various Civil Service grades for the reason that they had lost ground as compared with similar outside employments.

Deputy Andrews.—Could I ask that in future the word “status” be not used?

Chairman.—I do not think so—not at this Committee.

Deputy Andrews.—I should like to have it on record that I abhor the use of it.

Deputy Briscoe.—Mr. Whitaker used the expression “so-called status increases”?—I do not like the word either.

VOTE 3—DEPARTMENT OF THE TAOISEACH.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.

99. Deputy Andrews.—With regard to Subhead B.—Travelling and Incidental Expenses—what does “incidental expenses” mean?—Usually in these cases it means items like laundry, uniforms for staff, and so on.

VOTE 4—CENTRAL STATISTICS OFFICE.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.

100. Chairman.—On Subhead A—Salaries, Wages and Allowances—the Household Budget Inquiry was postponed, but I think it is under way now?—Yes.

Had you difficulty in recruiting staff?—The main difficulty was in recruiting trained statisticians. There was a subsidiary difficulty due to the premises being moved from Dublin Castle to St. Stephen’s Green.

Have you succeeded in filling the vacancies now?—Not entirely of course; there is a chronic shortage of trained statisticians but we managed to get enough to go ahead with the Inquiry.

Deputy Briscoe.—I would like to have clarification, if I may, on the Household Budget Inquiry.

Chairman.—Is there not an inquiry going on in households into the cost of various items?—Yes, to get an idea of how much is spent in a typical household on food, fuel, and so on, in order to have an up-to-date basis for calculating the cost-of-living figures.

Deputy Briscoe.—Is this done at regular intervals?—Not regularly; the last one was done in the early 1950s. It is quite a long time ago.

101. Deputy Molloy.—On Extra Remuneration, what type of duties would the Higher Executive Officer and Statistician do to receive £150 and £225 respectively?—Their duties represent a great addition to their normal working hours because of the concentration of work at census time.

How do you evaluate work and arrive at that figure?—I gave a scissors movement explanation to a similar question last year. Where the salaries of the officers concerned fall into the middle range, it is done more by reference to the actual extra hours they have put in. They are never paid the full equivalent of overtime rates—there is always an element of adjustment downwards. Allowance is, of course, made for extra responsibilities associated with the work.

Deputy P. Hogan (South Tipperary).—It is an arbitrary figure.

Chairman.—More or less.

VOTE 6—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE

Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.

102. Deputy F. Crowley.—On Subhead C.—Travelling and Incidental Expenses— obviously you did not budget for travelling abroad so much. What was the reason for the under-estimate?—There are two reasons. First, we had a great deal of to-ing and fro-ing in connection with the Free Trade Agreement, and, secondly, we encourage officers in the Civil Service as a whole to acquire a knowledge of foreign languages by offering scholarships and assistance towards travel expenditure and subsistence. We get the main brunt of this on our Vote.

Did many civil servants avail of the scheme of scholarships?—Yes, it was very popular. There are enormous numbers, in fact, attending vocational schools and classes without any assistance financially, except the prospect that the better ones may qualify for a scholarship and go abroad for a month. We, of course, give that month in addition to the normal leave allowance.

How many people have got that month?— One way and another the number of people who have gone abroad on these courses, either on scholarships or partly at their own expense, runs into hundreds.

103. Deputy Healy.—Does Mr. Whitaker find there is any leakage through this service? Do you lose any personnel who go away and find more attractive employment elsewhere? —Not specifically on the language course travel. Where we send people abroad for specialised training, we always run the risk Deputy Healy mentions. Fortunately, the doves have come back to the ark so far. I should say that now and again we lose trained men because some more pleasant or interesting occupation beckons them out of the public service.

I would say that obviously it is worth the price we pay for it?—Yes.

104. Deputy Briscoe.—On Subhead E.— Institute of Public Administration—I notice that saving occurred on expenditure on accommodation by the School of Public Administration, accommodation being rented instead of purchased. Is it normal practice to rent instead of purchase?—The Institute of Public Administration is in essence an independent body and we assist them from public funds because of the good work they are doing in the educational training of civil servants and local authority employees. What happened was we had in this grant of £23,000 included a sum of £12,000 to help them purchase an additional house in order to expand. The purchase did not go through at that time and we converted our assistance partly into helping them rent extra accommodation.

Is that in Landsdowne Road too?—No; it was in the R.D.S. premises. The Institute had two adjoining houses in Landsdowne Road but these did not provide sufficient accommodation.

Deputy Andrews.—Do they envisage buying these premises at any time?—To my knowledge the Institute have already bought three houses and they are contemplating extending their premises further. They came to us at this time for some contribution towards the expenses of buying the third of these houses. We may have it again looking for assistance some other year.

It is an annual grant?—Partly there is an annual contribution in so far as we make an annual payment towards the running expenses but the assistance towards the accommodation is ad hoc and based on the needs of the Institute from time to time.

105. Chairman.—In regard to Subhead F.—Expenses of the Savings Committee— there is an expenditure, mentioned in the Notes, of £30,000. Are the results encouraging?—It is an uphill fight because many things are adversely affecting savings. We are quite certain that if we did not keep up a reasonable amount of publicity, savings would flag still further. So, in the negative sense of holding on, it is worthwhile.

106. Deputy F. Crowley.—In regard to Subhead G.—Fees and Incidental Expenses— what is the fee paid to the Civil Service Arbitrator?—I understand it is 40 guineas a day while he is actually engaged on arbitration.

How many sittings would be included in the expenditure?—Between 40 and 50.

Deputy Briscoe.—Who sets the fee and how is it arrived at?—It is determined in part by the lost opportunities a senior counsel experiences by being engaged on this work.

It would be based on legal fees?—It is largely based on the legal fees he would presumably be otherwise earning.

Chairman.—Are there many claims awaiting hearing by the Board?—There is still a number but the list has shortened since last year. There have been delays in getting arbitration sittings and this has resulted in a long drawn-out process of arbitration but the number is now held down to more reasonable proportions.

Deputy F. Crowley.—Are there any other people entitled to fees and expenses besides the arbitrator?—Not on the Civil Service Arbitration Board. The staff members, namely, the persons representing the claimants, and the official members are not paid specially for this.

Deputy Molloy.—I should like to comment that it is rather ironic that the person negotiating weekly wages is himself in receipt of 40 guineas a day.

Chairman.—I think that comment can be made somewhere else.

107. Deputy Healy.—In regard to the notes on Extra Remuneration, I should like to ask if when these officers are seconded to the Central Bank or various other semi-State bodies such as the National Building Agency, does the time which they spend at this work not interfere with the work which they normally do and for which they are being paid? Do they lose anything as officers for the time they spend on this work or is this extra money for work done in the time they would be spending otherwise in their own Departments?—We are satisfied that these senior officers are not carrying any lighter load in regard to their official responsibilities and that anything they do in these companies is extra responsibility. I can speak personally for that in the case of the Central Bank.

Deputy Molloy.—But this work is still done in the ordinary working week?—It has to be done in the course of one’s work-time.

It does not involve any extra time?—I thought the Deputy meant that it had to be done in the ordinary working hours. In fact, it involves an enormous amount of extra time both on weekdays and at weekends.

Deputy Healy.—That is what I wanted to know.

108. Deputy F. Crowley.—Does the Savings Committee make recommendations to you in regard to publicity, the fixing of increased interest rates and various other aspects?—Yes. We have given them a great deal of discretion in regard to making representations. Within the total allocation they can go ahead and decide themselves what to do. That is what they have been doing in recent years.

They are entitled to take action on their own?—They have a good deal of executive discretion.

How many people are on this Committee?— Roughly a dozen.

There are representatives of the Savings Bank?—They are voluntary workers drawn from all kinds of occupations, including the savings movement and from voluntary organisations such as the Countrywomen’s Association. They cover a very wide range.

Have you any representatives of the Credit Union movement?—Not yet.

VOTE 11—STATE LABORATORY.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.

109. Deputy F. Crowley.—In regard to subhead D.—Apparatus and Chemical Equipment—have we any idea of the total value of this apparatus and equipment?—I am afraid not. I do not know whether the Comptroller and Auditor General has.

Mr. Suttle.—No. It is a Department that has been there for a considerable length of time. I would have no idea of the value of the apparatus. Some of it would be very old and some has been replaced from time to time. There is no question of any commercial value. There is no necessity to keep a record of the value. As long as they have sufficient equipment to enable them to do their work, that is all that matters.

Deputy F. Crowley.—They have sufficient?

Mr. Suttle.—They have.

VOTE 12—CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.

110. Deputy Andrews.—In regard to subhead A.2.—Examiners, etc.—what does the “etc.” stand for?—People, for example, who superintend examinations and also medical examiners.

These people would be examiners, medical people?—Yes, medical people. There are also people who merely superintend examinations.

Deputy Briscoe.—Who would these people be, generally speaking? Would they be civil servants?—No, not necessarily. They are drawn from a wide range of people—teachers, sometimes retired people, and even house-wives have been drawn into it.

Deputy Andrews.—Do civil servants get these posts?—Very rarely.

111. Chairman.—On subhead E.—Appropriations in Aid, in regard to item No. 1— Receipts from the Department of Posts and Telegraphs—receipts were up from an estimated £19,000 to £24,000. What are these receipts in respect of?—They represent the cost of recruiting staff for the Post Office. The extra amount is due to the increase in salaries during the period.

Is that in connection with this new system of Post Office accounting?—Yes, the Post Office charges other Departments for services rendered and pays for the services it receives.

112. Deputy F. Crowley.—Under “Extra Remuneration”, an executive officer received a gratuity of £100 for higher duties. What were those higher duties?—He was actually doing duty as a higher executive officer, that is, in the immediately higher grade, for a whole year.

He was not working on anything specialised?—No, he was working in a higher grade and he received a gratuity.

113. Chairman.—I notice fees (stamps) amounting to £29,918 were received in the year. In the Estimates the figure given was £16,910. What caused the big increase?— There was an increase in the number of candidates. There was no increase in the fees.

Deputy Healy.—For the Civil Service examinations?—Yes, for the General Service.

VOTE 13—AN COMHAIRLE EALAION.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.

114. Chairman.—There is one heading which is actually a Grant-in-Aid. The Auditor-General audits these accounts.

Deputy Andrews.—What does “Grant under Section 5 of the Arts Act, 1951” mean? What does Section 5 cover?—It covers the giving of the grant, specifies that the grant is a Grant-in-Aid, that it may not exceed £40,000 and is for the general purposes of An Comhairle Ealaíon.

What is it spent on? Has Mr. Whitaker the Report?—

Chairman.—The Report is presented to the House.

Mr. Whitaker.—It covers the visual arts, drama, literature and so on.

VOTE 14—SUPERANNUATION AND RETIRED ALLOWANCES.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.

115. Deputy Molloy.—On subhead C.— Compensation Allowances under Article 10 of the Treaty of 6th December, 1921—would Mr. Whitaker give an explanation of this?— The reference to Article 10 of the Treaty shows that these officers retired under that Article on the grounds mainly that there had been a disimprovement in the conditions of their service. The Treaty provided for certain compensation for these officers.

Is this reduced every year?—The number is falling all the time according as they die. Less than 300 of such officers are left.

116. Deputy Andrews.—On subhead H.— Compensation in respect of Death or Personal Injuries and other Expenses in connection therewith—would Mr. Whitaker give an explanation of this?—Some of this goes back to the Emergency years and covers compensation for deaths and personal injuries associated with the air raids that occurred during the Emergency. The subhead also covers other items such as injuries to Civil Defence workers.

117. Chairman.—In one of the cases listed under “Extra Remuneration”, a pensioner was paid an extra £3,379. What were the circumstances of that?—The pensioner in question was a Deputy Chief Inspector of Taxes who was re-employed on the grounds of public interest as a senior inspector to handle the investigation of difficult cases. He was re-employed because of his very specialised training and experience in taxation work. His being a very senior officer accounts for the amount of £3,379.

Deputy Molloy.—Who decides that such a person will be continued in employment?— The Minister for Finance.

VOTE 15—SECRET SERVICE.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.

118. Deputy Briscoe.—I understand that before when questions were asked on the Secret Service no information could be given because it was secret.

Chairman.—That situation still holds.

Deputy Andrews.—Is it a secret as to how many people are employed by the Service?

Chairman.—As the Deputy is aware these are questions for the Ministers involved; the money is expended on the authority of the Ministers involved.

Who are the Ministers?—

Chairman.—The Minister for Finance and any other Minister.

Deputy Molloy.—We can take it there was more than one person employed?—I do not know.

Chairman.—We can take it that Mr. Whitaker does not know any more than the rest of us. We will have to leave it to the Secret Service. Anyway, they are not using as much as was provided for them.

VOTE 16—AGRICULTURAL GRANTS.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker called.

No question.

VOTE 17—LAW CHARGES.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.

119. Chairman.—In regard to subhead D.—Witnesses’ Expenses, etc.—nearly £6,500 was expended over the amount granted. Was this just due to extra witnesses being required?—Yes, and there were some very special cases like the fluoridation case.

120. Deputy Molloy.—In regard to subhead E.—Fees to Counsel—could Mr. Whitaker tell us what is the average daily fee to counsel?

Chairman.—I presume that varies according to counsel.

Deputy Molloy.—An average for a senior counsel?—The general range of fees is from 15 guineas to 75 guineas for senior counsel and the junior is paid two-thirds of that. The appropriate fee for any particular counsel is decided by the Attorney-General.

Deputy Molloy.—It ranges from 15 to 75 guineas and we are paying 40 guineas to the arbitrator.

121. Deputy Andrews.—In subhead G.— Defence of Public Servants—who are these? Are they employees of Departments?—In that particular year there were two cases, both of which involved sergeants in the Garda Síochána.

What exactly are they being defended for?—The general principle on which this provision is based is that if a public servant of any kind acts in the call of his duty in the belief that he is acting entirely within his responsibility, but yet the court considers that he acted in excess of his duty, then the State comes to his rescue in this way.

VOTE 18—MISCELLANEOUS EXPENSES.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.

122. Deputy F. Crowley.—In relation to subhead B.—Property Values (Arbitrations and Appeals)—what is this sum spent on?— There is a permanent arbitrator and this represents his annual remuneration and expenses.

Deputy Molloy.—What qualifications would he have?—He would have to have the professional valuer’s qualifications.

Would he be a professional man?—Yes, he is professional but I cannot tell you offhand what are the precise qualifications of the present holder.

Chairman.—I think the present holder is an engineer?—Yes.

123. Deputy Molloy.—Could we have a break-down of subhead C.—Bounties (Triplets and Centenarians)?—Thirteen centenarians received £65 and there were six sets of triplets making £18, giving a total of £83.

Deputy Andrews.—The parents of triplets received £18, is that right?—Yes.

124. Deputy Briscoe.—In regard to subhead D.—Marsh’s Library (Grant-in-Aid) —what is this library?—It is in St. Patrick’s Close near the Cathedral and has some very old books in it. We have been helping to have it renovated by means of this provision.

Deputy Andrews.—Is the £2,000 just for the renovation? Passing by it daily, as I do, it clearly looks to me as if it is falling down?— This £2,000 is only one of a number of annual grants which have been given in recent years on the rough basis that the State would put up £ for £ but I think in the end we had to put up more than £ for £. The fabric had been decaying and as it is of some architectural value, we were helping it as a sort of ancient monument. Marsh was an archbishop who lived around the year 1700. He was a great collector of books.

Is this an indication that the State intends preserving this as an ancient monument?— It is being preserved for its architectural value and also because it has a valuable library which is open to the public.

Deputy Andrews.—I appreciate that. Thank you.

125. Deputy Briscoe.—In regard to subhead F.—The Olympic Council of Ireland (Grant-in-Aid)—how often do they get this grant? Is it every year or every four years?— Every four years.

This is based on their estimated requirements?—It is on the basis of making a public contribution of roughly £1 for every £1 they collect.

Deputy Molloy.—Is there any explanation given of how the money is spent after the grant is paid?

Chairman.—Again, this is a grant-in-aid and they produce their receipts. The only reason I am saying this is that no accounting officer has details of moneys provided by way of grant-in-aid.

Deputy Molloy.—I am not looking for details but just to know if they are not responsible.

Chairman.—The accounting officer is not responsible, once he pays over. The Dáil authorises him to pay over so much and, after that, he certifies that it has been done. That is as far as he is responsible.

Deputy Healy.—It is true they must be supplied to members of the Dáil?—It may be some reassurance to know that we do receive an auditor’s certificate before we decide to pay the final instalment of the grant.

126. Deputy F. Crowley.—On subhead I.— Grant to the Insurance Compensation Fund under Section 4 of the Insurance Act, 1964— £30,000 was spent. Was that for compensating the victims of the Equitable?— Yes, entirely.

Deputy Andrews.—Arising out of that, who are the victims of the Equitable?—They are mainly workmen’s compensation cases.

Certainly not Common Law claims?—No, they are really cases of hardship where workmen’s compensation would not be payable because of the failure of the insurance company.

In fact, it deals only with workmen’s compensation?—Yes. That was the purpose for which the Supplementary was introduced in the Dáil.

Deputy F. Crowley.—There was also third party liability.

Deputy Andrews.—There was another fund?—That is an interim fund to provide for similar contingencies in future.

Chairman.—The Act sets up the fund.

Deputy F. Crowley.—Has the State taken steps to ensure that we do not have another Equitable, or similar, position?

Mr. Suttle.—That is a matter for the Minister for Industry and Commerce.

Mr. P. Hogan (South Tipperary).—I take it this will be a fund to which the insurance companies will contribute interest? It will be something like the solicitors have?—The legislation provides for a kind of re-insurance between the companies without State liability.

It will not arise again?—It should not; we hope not.

127. Deputy Molloy.—On subhead H.— Bord na gCon (Grant-in-Aid)—could I go back to enquire why the sum of £95,000 was not fully expended? Why is there a saving of £3,372?—I have not that information by me.

Mr. Suttle.—It was in effect a refund of the turnover tax.

Mr. Whitaker.—The purpose of this was to repay turnover tax. They paid the turnover tax and eventually under the authority of the Finance Act, 1963 they were exempted from the tax altogether.

Deputy Molloy.—That would mean they only get the turnover tax?

Mr. Suttle.—They would only get the turnover tax they had paid. They had to be assessed at that figure.

128. On subhead J.—Purchase of interest in Copyright of the National Anthem—from whom was the copyright bought?—The Kearney family.

VOTE 51—REMUNERATION.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker called.

129. Chairman.—The various Votes with excess in regard to Remuneration are set out on page 166 of the Appropriation Accounts 1964-65.

VOTE 52—INCREASES IN PENSIONS.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.

130. Chairman.—The details of expenditure as compared with the Estimate are set out. In all cases they are very accurate except the last one—Connaught Rangers, Local Authorities, etc. Have you any comment, Mr. Whitaker?—We looked at that a year ago. A similar situation arose then. I think the real reason why this discrepancy arose is that we followed the practice in introducing the Estimate of putting in the estimated total cost for the purpose of getting authority to meet it, but the local authorities, in fact, did not get around to claiming the recoupment until the following year.

Deputy Healy.—Can we take it that the £5,000 will be claimed eventually?—Yes, it gets absorbed under health grants and vocational education grants.

VOTE 53—LOCAL LOANS FUND.

Mr. T. K. Whitaker called.

No question.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 28—LOCAL GOVERNMENT.

Mr. J. Garvin called and examined.

131. Chairman.—Paragraph 26 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Subhead M.—Purchase of Shares in An Foras Forbartha Teoranta. Subhead N. — An Foras Forbartha Teoranta (Grant-in-Aid).

26. An Foras Forbartha Teoranta (National Institute for Physical Planning and Construction Research, Limited) was incorporated on 26 March, 1964 with the object of engaging in physical planning and in building and construction research. The payment of £100 from subhead M was in respect of the purchase of its share capital.

The United Nations rendered advice and assistance in the formation of An Foras and will continue to provide expert advisers, fellowships, etc., for a period of five years. The cost of other professional and office staff, accommodation, etc., is met by An Foras, and a grant-in-aid, £30,000, is provided for these expenses in the year under review. The accounts of An Foras are audited by me.”

Have you anything to add, Mr. Suttle?

Mr. Suttle.—I have nothing to add.

132. Subhead M.—Purchase of Shares in An Foras Forbartha Teoranta—provides for a payment of £100. Who holds the shares?

Mr. Garvin.—The shares are held, one by each of seven directors, one by the Minister for Local Government and 92 by the Minister for Finance.

The cost of office staff, accommodation, et cetera, is met by An Foras and a Grant-in-Aid of £30,000 is provided for these expenses. Did the expenses absorb the Grant-in-Aid in full?—I believe they did, Mr. Chairman.

Could you say if there is any overlapping as between An Foras and the National Building Advisory Council?—I think there is a possibility of such overlapping. As a matter of fact, that matter is being pursued at the moment.

133. Deputy Andrews.—The United Nations rendered advice and assistance in the formation of An Foras. What type of advice do they give?—Under the arrangement with the United Nations assistance in the form of personnel, fellowships, books and equipment is being afforded to a total value of 750,000 dollars in the first five years of the Institute.

Is this an annual contribution?—The sum of 750,000 dollars is the total amount over the whole five years. The purpose of assistance is to aid the Institute in its initial period by bringing in experienced specialists.

134. Deputy Andrews.—Will there be a report at the end of this five-year period or is there an annual report as to the services rendered?—There is an annual report by An Foras to the Minister for Local Government.

Has there been a report to date?—Yes. I do not know if it has been made public. There are many ad hoc reports on particular lines of research—road research, road traffic regional planning and building.

Is there any reason why these reports should not be made available to Deputies?— Not the ad hoc reports because they are for particular administrative purposes, and they reach Deputies eventually by way of the Minister’s annual Estimate or legislation introduced in the Dáil.

135. Chairman.—Paragraph 27 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General reads:

“Motor Vehicle Duties

27. A test examination of the revenue from motor vehicle duties, etc., was carried out with satisfactory results. The reports of the Local Government auditors who examine the motor tax transactions of local authorities are made available to me.

The gross proceeds in 1964-65 amounted to £8,923,936, compared with £8,187,059 in the previous year. They include fines amounting to £81,536 collected by the Department of Justice; £10,192 in respect of fees received under the Road Traffic Act, 1961, Road Traffic (Public Service Vehicles) Regulations, 1963; £2,176 fees collected by Planning Authorities in respect of appliances and structures for servicing vehicles; £7,343 fees received by the Department of Local Government pursuant to the Road Traffic (Licensing of Drivers) Regulations, 1964, and £75,962 received from Government Departments in respect of State owned vehicles.

£8,801,343 was paid into the Exchequer and £26,511 was refunded leaving a balance of £144,898 as compared with £48,816 at the end of the previous financial year.”

Mr. Suttle.—These are the annual statistics of motor vehicle duties.

Deputy F. Crowley.—These parking fines— they are paid to Local Government by Justice? They do not stay with Justice?—No; they go into the Road Fund.

136. Chairman.—We turn now to the Vote. With regard to subhead B.—Travelling and Incidental Expenses—the explanatory note refers to special study courses. Could you specify what these courses are?—There is a big variety of these courses at present held either in this country or abroad, and those of them that appear to be of value to our administration are attended by selected officers, usually technical officers but sometimes administrative. The courses would relate to planning, housing, roads or traffic—either international meetings or seminars at places in England and Scotland. There would be study courses in the Roads Research Laboratory in England. The seminars are changed from one place to another annually, then there are study courses sometimes abroad.

137. Deputy P. Hogan (South Tipperary).—There seem to be considerable expenses under this subhead. We have in most local authorities planning officers appointed, with staffs, and we have no money and probably will not have it for some time. It seems to me that we have in some places a shortage of staff for housing planning. Could any use be made of these planning officers in relation to housing as a matter of economy?— Of course. All the technical officers employed by the Department of Local Government are of assistance to local authorities in their travelling on inspections and in vetting their plans. Their advice is available to the local staffs in regard to the revision of plans, and all their travelling is in relation to the inspection of works and proposals for new works, also the holding of inquiries based upon statutory requirements, such as the acquisition of land, where a local inquiry is required to be held before land is acquired. There is general co-operation between the Department’s technical officers and the technical officers of all the local authorities.

Deputy P. Hogan (South Tipperary).— That is not quite what I am getting at. We have involved ourselves in a lot of expense in these study courses at a time when we have no money to build houses.

Deputy Andrews.—In this question of not having money, the point is that we have not sufficient money.

Chairman.—At this stage, I was about to say that Deputy Hogan should not pursue that question here. The Accounting Officer is is here to account for the expenditure of these sums of money under the various subheads of the Vote. Any other matters in regard to variations that might be made would be for the House and would have to be made in the House at the time by the Minister. We cannot pursue these matters at this stage here.

Mr. Garvin.—Might I observe that the amount of the money in the subhead in question which is referable to expenditure on travel to study courses is very small in relation to the total amount for local travelling on official matters connected with local authorities.

Deputy Molloy.—I should like to ask you, Mr. Chairman, to ask Deputy Hogan to withdraw the statement he has made or to explain it. It does not make sense but it has gone down on the record here. What does he mean when he said there was no money?

Chairman.—At this stage what we are doing here is trying to keep to this Vote and I am directing Deputy Hogan’s attention to the point that these are matters we should not deal with here.

Deputy Molloy.—Not enough money— there never is enough money for anything.

138. Deputy F. Crowley.—What form of advertising is covered by this subhead?— The usual advertisements indicating that a local inquiry will be held at the Town Hall in such a place at 11 o’clock to inquire into a proposal to acquire so many acres of land adjoining the town for the purposes of a housing scheme, or whatever it may be.

The explanatory note refers to “Testing of samples in connection with the Local Authorities (Combined Purchasing) Act.” Could you explain that?—Many items which can be physically sampled are subject to requisitions by the Combined Purchasing Section to the contractors to have samples on display in the offices of the Combined Purchasing Section and these samples are available for inspection by officers of the local authorities who wish to get supplies from the contractors in question to check whether they are in accordance with specification and standard of quality. These include medicines, paints, fabrics and so on. These people are domiciled in the offices at Parkgate Hall which were vacated by the Garda Síochána. For the first time they have adequate space for their samples.

What type of people are employed in that department? Are they engineers or architects or scientists?—Generally they are laymen who have acquired a specialised knowledge of furniture, sheeting and materials for institutions. You have such things as tiles and timber and all those things which are requisitioned by local authorities either on the institutional side or on the works side.

It is mostly staffed by laymen?—Yes. Of course, the State chemist is available for analysis and every other kind of specialist is available to them also.

139. Deputy Molloy.—In regard to subhead E.1.—Contributions to Local Authority Housing—could Mr. Garvin explain why the expenditure was greater than the amount granted?—This is the amount which is payable in toto to local authorities in respect of the State proportion of the annual loan charges for local authority housing. The payment depends on claims being submitted by the local authorities and sometimes the claims may be in arrears for a couple of years and sometimes local authorities may come up with more than what was anticipated. On this occasion local authorities came up with an unexpectedly large amount for recoupment and that explains the £74,204 excess.

Chairman.—Could you say what percentage of the subsidy is withheld pending documentation?—My impression is that they have documentation in full. You get some documentation in respect of every payment but in respect of the final payment, it is based on how the housing service works out, whether the loan charges are in respect of people who have been rehoused from unfit dwellings and slums, or whether it is “ordinary” housing which receives a lower percentage.

There is a percentage withheld until final documentation comes in?—There is no regular percentage. It varies.

Deputy Healy.—That is the reason why Mr. Garvin says that there is a delay sometimes—some of the local authorities are not claiming these grants?—They have to do a lot of work themselves to validate their claims.

140. Chairman.—In regard to subhead E.2—Private Housing Grants—was there any estimate of the outstanding claims at 31st March?—No. This is continuous from one year into another and what we have to do is live within the amount that has been provided in the Estimates. Of course, we could continue paying on the week after the ending of the financial year because they would be coming in all the time. If you go by the amounts allocated, there would be millions outstanding but if you go by the amount of current claims it would be fairly small at the end of the financial year. In actual fact, as the Comptroller and Auditor General pointed out, if a claim is found to be actually due and payable, we are obliged to pay it under the rules governing public finance.

141. In regard to subhead F.—Water Supply and Sewerage—Contributions and Grants—what is the significance of the increase?—It was coming up in waves at that time. We had raised the capital amount involved in the schemes in course of planning from £3 million to nearly £9 million and they were coming up quickly. They are showing a tendency to increase rapidly from year to year.

142. Deputy Andrews.—On subhead G.— Grant to the Road Fund—why was this grant not utilised?—This was due to a decision of the Minister for Finance. The grant represents an outstanding portion of sums provided to assist the Road Fund from State sources in respect of alternative road arrangements where railways were closed and where there were new demands on roads as a result of new industries being sited in a locality. We did get a very considerable sum of money in the preceding years from this source, which helped considerably to build up the road system in various parts of the country where railways had been abandoned. On this occasion it appears that the Minister felt there were more urgent demands on the Exchequer in respect of the particular £200,000 and the grant was not paid.

Deputy Healy.—We can take it, therefore, that the Road Fund was supplemented by the Exchequer the previous year and needed to be this year but it was withdrawn afterwards?— That is right.

143. Chairman.—In regard to subhead H.—Grants in respect of Derelict Sites, Public Amenity Works and Dangerous Quarries—is there widespread interest throughout the country in these grants?— Yes, both on the part of local authorities and private individuals. Private individuals show more activity in derelict site clearance than the local authorities.

Deputy Andrews.—When you refer to private individuals, would these constitute residents’ associations?—Individuals. An individual might have a derelict site and decide that he would like to turn it to a flower garden and he would get the State grant because it would be an eyesore as far as the public were concerned.

If there are derelict sites in a lot of these urban estates, can the residents’ association avail of these grants?—I would not regard modern development estates as having derelict sites. Even if portions of them were undeveloped, that should be charged either to the cost of housing development or be paid by the builder, according to where responsibility might lie. What we have in mind are old, abandoned places.

144. Deputy Molloy.—From whom is the money recouped under subhead I.—Recoupment of Expenditure in respect of Register of Electors?—The expenditure is recouped from the Department of Local Government and it is in respect of expenditure by the local authorities in the preparation of the Register. This is the first year in which it came up for charge to the Department of Local Government. Previously it was recouped to the Registrars from another Vote, the Department of Finance. Now it is done directly by the local authority who have taken on the cost of printing. Actually, it was expenditure on our behalf ultimately by the Stationery Office.

The money is paid to the county councils in each county?—That is the current position.

145. Chairman.—In regard to subhead J.—Fire Protection Association of Ireland (Grant-in-Aid)—what is the general purpose of the Association?—That is a new association which is intended to avail itself of the experience and skills of the insurance companies associated with the Fire Protection Association of Great Britain. We decided to establish it here and to provide clerical assistance for it, from the Department of Local Government. The members meet and advise the Department in regard to the different developments that may be deemed of value in regard to protection against fire.

146. Deputy Andrews.—In regard to subhead K.—Miscellaneous Expenses—this is really another form of “et cetera”, is it not?— Yes.

I do not understand why you did not put in the amounts. You do see fit to put in the sum of £250 in Subhead J. You do not see fit to put in or give a full account of how £8,724 was spent. Why not; for what reason? What are these Miscellaneous Services?—I think this was done on a general policy decision from the Department of Finance that there were too many of these scattered small provisions that might more properly be grouped. Subhead K is annotated in the notes as including provision for grants to An Chomhairle Leabharlanna. The actual estimate there was £14,500 and the expenditure was £6,620, leaving a saving of £7,880. The local libraries did not avail themselves of the grants to a sufficient extent to qualify for the payment provided in the estimate. I really cannot answer the part of the Deputy’s query which relates to the desirability of doing this as compared with making detailed provisions for something else. I imagine the Fire Protection provision was inserted separately so as to draw attention to it as something that was provided for the first time.

Chairman.—It is a Grant-in-Aid anyway.

147. Is it expected that this subhead will go on in the following year?—Subhead K, in so far as An Chomhairle Leabharlanna is concerned, will be a continuing estimate from year to year.

The need will be there to meet it; there is no question that it will be non-existent?—Yes, the need will be there.

Deputy Molloy.—Could the £7,841 that was not spent be attributed to the fact that the local authorities did not avail of this money? It could be claimed by them as a contribution towards improvement of library services?— That is so.

The full sum which was not spent?—It is practically the same amount.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 43—POSTS AND TELEGRAPHS.

Mr. Leon Ó Broin called and examined.

148. Chairman.—Paragraph 71 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General reads:

“Subhead A.—Salaries, Wages and Allowances

71. I observed that a considerable number of Post Office staff were employed on protracted spells of overtime. In view of the impairment of efficiency usually associated with prolonged working hours I invited the observations of the Accounting Officer on nineteen selected cases in which payments in respect of extra duty ranged from £500 to £850.”

Have you anything to add to that, Mr. Suttle?

Mr. Suttle.—I asked the Accounting Officer regarding 19 cases. There was a considerable amount of overtime which had been paid. He gave me details of the circumstances in each case. He continues:

It will be seen that the overtime was necessary in order to maintain the various services, and that it had to be worked because of staff shortages which were due either to recruitment difficulties or to vacancies being left unfilled while the staffing position was being reviewed, and because in certain instances overtime is the most economical way of meeting pressure requirements.

The Department does not favour overtime working where additional staff can be usefully and economically employed and the volume of overtime worked is kept under constant review in order to reduce it to the maximum extent possible consistent with economy. However, overtime which may be quite high in some instances is unavoidable in Post Office conditions and is the most economical way in which to have the work done in some circumstances. Where overtime has to be worked it is spread as far as possible over the available staff competent to do it but in certain cases much of it falls to particular individuals because of their greater availability, willingness and competence. While prolonged overtime is an undesirable arrangement and is one that the Department is anxious to avoid, there is no evidence that where the volume of it has been high it has impaired the efficiency of the officers concerned.

149. Deputy Molloy.—What do you mean by “greater availability”?

Mr. Suttle.—Some men due to their domestic circumstances are quite willing to stay on extra hours while others might feel they have too many dates on hand and may prefer to go away. It depends on the circumstances of the individuals.

Mr. Ó Broin.—There is also the situation that on some clerical duties not all the staff can do all that is required, so there is a tendency for the work to fall on certain people.

Chairman.—Your recruitment difficulties are nearly over?—I doubt if they will ever be over, but they have improved.

150. Deputy Molloy.—How do you arrive at the figure of £847 for Extra Remuneration?

Mr. Suttle.—That was paid to a technician, Grade 1, in Headquarters.

Deputy Molloy.—What is the scale of salary for a technician Grade I? These figures are very disturbing.

Mr. Suttle.—The Accounting Officer has given details of every case. He continues:

The process of building up sufficient trained workman staff to cope with the increased demands for both construction and maintenance of the telephone service is a slow one and overtime has to be worked in many cases to supplement the output. In addition, as happened in this case of a man employed on maintenance in the main trunk exchanges in Dublin, much of the maintenance work has to be done at week-ends and other off-peak hours in order not to interfere with the flow of traffic.

There are individual circumstances in most of the cases on that basis.

Deputy Molloy.—Could this be considered at overtime rates instead of extra duties? Could it be paid at overtime rates?

Mr. Suttle.—It is at overtime rates.

It is a fixed rate?

Mr. Suttle.—It depends on the period of the overtime—time and a half, and so on and it is related to the salary.

151. Chairman.—Paragraph 72 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General reads:

“Stores

72. A test examination of the store accounts was carried out with satisfactory results.

In addition to the engineering stores shown in Appendix II as valued at, £2,555,594 on 31 March, 1965, engineering stores to the value of £23,015 were held on behalf of other government departments. Stores other than engineering stores were valued at £474,251 including £158,440 in respect of stores held for other government departments.

Including works in progress on 31 March, 1965, the expenditure on manufacturing jobs in the factory during the year amounted to £65,975, expenditure on repair work (other than repairs to mechanical transport) to £91,043 and expenditure on mechanical transport repairs to £18,391.”

152. Deputy Andrews.—How is the accounting carried out?

Mr. Suttle.—It is mainly carried out manually.

Have the Post Office people thought of computerisation?—Mr. Suttle.—They have in certain aspects of their work, in the Savings Bank and on the telephone accounts.

Have they implemented it?—Mr. Suttle.— They have in the Savings Bank and also in the Telephone Accounts Section, but it has not reached the stores yet.

When you say mechanisation, do you mean computerisation?—Mr. Suttle.—No, not necessarily.

Do you envisage computerisation in time?—Mr. Suttle. No, they are not fully suitable for other work. Computers have their limitations. Their capacity is not fully availed of for certain types of work. Certain repetitive work can be done on simple machines. A computer will do complicated work but to use a computer for calculating interest at fixed rates would be a waste of time.

Deputy Andrews.—Have you any computors in your Department?—Mr. Suttle.— Not in the Post Office. I think there is only one operating fully and that is in the Revenue Commissioners. Up to now computers have not been found to be necessary in all departments.

You have not had any of the experts in to advise you as to their suitability?—Mr. Suttle.—There is a continual survey going on all the time in Departments in regard to methods of accounting and various aspects of work. A number of smaller types of computers are in the process of being purchased by various Departments.

In relation to accounting, is it centralised or decentralised?—Mr. Suttle.—It is decentralised to each Department.

And in relation to pay?—Mr. Suttle.—Pay is also decentralised.

Why is that?—Mr. Suttle.—Attempts have been made from time to time to centralise the pay system but difficulties have come up.

What sort of difficulties?—Mr. Suttle.— There is the question of the tremendous variation in the type of people employed. If you take the Post Office alone, you would have several hundreds of classes which are not even General Service. There is the whole question of co-ordination between Departments. It is a very big problem. It is ten years since it was first attempted to centralise pay. A pilot scheme was drawn up but it did not work and was dropped. It has been considered from time to time since but nothing has been done about it in the last couple of years.

I am sure that eventually you envisage the centralisation of pay packets in your Department?—Mr. Suttle.—This is not my work. I carry out the audit.

Deputy Andrews.—I appreciate that.

153. Chairman.—Paragraph 73 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General reads:

“Revenue

73. A test examination of the accounts of Postal, Telegraph and Telephone services was carried out with generally satisfactory results.

The net yield of revenue for the years 1964-65 and 1963-64 is shown in the following statement:—

£14,900,000 was paid into the Exchequer during the year leaving a balance of £1,230,147 at 31 March, 1965, as compared with £577,328 at the end of the previous financial year.

Sums amounting to £925 due for telephone services provided in prior years were written off during the year as irrecoverable.”

Have you anything to add to that, Mr. Suttle?

Mr. Suttle.—No, these are purely statistics about the revenue of the Post Office. The revenue has increased for two reasons, one being increased rates and the other, that under the new system of accounting in the Post Office every Department must pay for the services which were previously provided free.

I notice that there is a variation here. There is £17 million granted and the revenue was £15 million. However, we can raise this on the Commercial Accounts?—Mr. Ó Broin.—Yes, you will find the situation explained there.

154. You were carrying a larger amount at 31st March, 1965, than you had carried previously, £1,230,000 as against £577,000?— Yes. That situation has improved very substantially since. The last figure I saw shows that it is now down to a normal volume of arrears.

155. Deputy Molloy.—At the bottom of this paragraph there is reference to sums which were written off as irrecoverable. From whom were these irrecoverable?—From subscribers. The amount actually was .03 pence per £1 revenue. We make every possible effort to recover the money and it is only when we find that we cannot recover that it is written off.

If somebody refuses to pay, it is just written off?—No. We pursue every legal possibility for its recovery.

Chairman.—I think, Deputy, that you will find that this is so if you do not pay your account.

Deputy Molloy.—A lot of people feel that they are getting bills which are excessive, which are not accurate, and they are refusing to pay them. Here you have £925 just written off.

Chairman.—That is written off after all attempts to recover the sums have failed.

Deputy Molloy.—Anyone who can resist all attempts just does not pay the bill?

Deputy Andrews.—How much money was spent on pursuing the £925?—Possibly a fair amount but at the same time we try to preserve a balance in our pursuits. This £925 is out of a total revenue of over £7½ million.

Deputy Briscoe.—It is very low.

Deputy Molloy.—Am I to understand that where anyone can resist all efforts to make him pay the amount will eventually be written off? It is only a matter then for his conscience and if in his conscience he feels he has got an incorrect bill, where are you?

Chairman.—As the Accounting Officer said, they pursue all possibilities and even take people to court.

Deputy Molloy.—That was not mentioned?—I said all legal possibilities.

Deputy Andrews.—It is not a bad loss.

Deputy Molloy.—It is very good.

156. Deputy Briscoe.—Since the mechanisation of these accounts, have you had a very noticeable increase in the number of queries about bills?—We have had an increase but I would not say it was a notable increase.

What percentage of the bills are queried?—I could not say without notice.

Could we get this information? This is not meant as a question of policy. Would it be a fair question to ask?—I will be glad to send you a note.*

157. Chairman.—Paragraph 74 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“74. It was observed in the course of audit that telephone accounts not collected at the close of the financial years 1963-64 and 1964-65 were significantly greater than in the two preceding years. As the increase in arrears coincided with the introduction of a mechanised system for collection of telephone revenue I have asked for the observations of the Accounting Officer.”

Have you anything to add to that, Mr. Suttle?

Mr. Suttle.—The Accounting Officer informed me that the amount of subscribers’ accounts outstanding at the end of the financial years depends mainly on the extent to which the accounts issued during the March quarter have been collected, and that, in turn, depends on the time available between the issue of accounts and the 31st of March, for the completion of the collection processes.

Staffing difficulties together with the growth in the number of accounts and in the volume of traffic to be accounted for resulted in substantially later issue of accounts in the March quarters in 1964 and 1965 than in the corresponding quarters in 1963 and 1962. (The number of subscribers increased from 112,000 at 31.3.62 to 138,000 at 31.3.65, the number of trunk calls accounted for from 3.1 million to 4.0 million and the number of local calls from 47 millions to 60 millions.)

The mechanisation of some of the accounting processes enabled part of the work to be done more quickly and with less staff but the gains were not sufficient to offset the other difficulties mentioned.

Deputy Molloy.—Would disagreement over bills be a factor in the delay in settlements. Do you have many complaints over the inaccuracy of bills?

Chairman.—The Accounting Officer said he will send us a note later on this matter.

Deputy Healy.—Could I have some information as to the present procedure when a person who has a telephone leaves the premises and goes to a new premises and gets the telephone transferred?

Chairman.—Mr. Ó Broin will have a word with you afterwards on this question.

158. Paragraph 75 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Post Office Savings Bank

75. The accounts of the Post Office Savings Bank for the year ended 31 December, 1964, were submitted to a test examination with satisfactory results. The balance due to depositors, inclusive of interest, amounted to £126,353,059 (including £18,902,212 in respect of liability to Trustee Savings Banks) on 31 December, 1964, as compared with £120,061,460 at the close of the previous year. Interest accrued during the year on securities standing to the credit of the Post Office Savings Bank Fund amounted to £5,387,264. Of this sum £3,101,900 was applied as interest paid and credited to depositors, management expenses absorbed £347,921 and the balance £1,937,443 was set aside towards provision against depreciation in the value of securities.”

Have you anything to add to that, Mr. Suttle?

Mr. Suttle.—No, that is for the information of the Committee. They have been supplied with copies of the accounts.

159. Deputy Andrews.—On subhead C— Accommodation and Building Charges—does the Department of Posts and Telegraphs own the buildings in which they are?—Mr. O’ Broin.—There are some we own; there are others we rent.

Could you tell me why you do not purchase these buildings, that is, from the long-term point of view?—We would like, as a broad statement of policy, to acquire sites, and build to our own requirements. But, on occasions we have to get accomodation quickly by renting buildings. Sometimes we cannot buy outright because of the unwillingness of the owner to sell and sometimes we find it more economical to rent premises You can take it that where the Department has a permanent and constant need for accommodation, we prefer to buy.

In what instances do you lease?—Of our own choice, it would be where we require accommodation for a brief period and we do not want to get tied up too much.

How long would your longest lease be?—I can only describe it as short-term as against long-term.

What would you envisage as short-term?— A few years.

Would it be five years?—It would depend on our requirements; we cannot envisage what they would be ultimately. We have a good deal of rented property as well as property we own ourselves. If the Deputy wants any particular information, I can send him a note.

I should like to know what properties you rent, how long the longest lease is and what the leases in relation to these properties are?—Does the Deputy want them item by item? That would be a long list.

No, could I just have a generalisation?—I shall be happy to send a note on that to the Committee.*

Is it the policy of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs to buy out new premises?— Where we are sure we have a permanent and constant need of property, we normally prefer to own the premises, to buy rather than to lease.

That would be more economical, of course, in the long term?—Yes.

160. Chairman.—This subhead C falls under four headings in the Estimates—Rents and Rates, Rental of International Telecommunication Circuits, Light, Heat, Power, etc., and Sites and Buildings. When you are sending us the note, would you give the expenditure under each of these headings?—I can give it to you now. The breakdown is as follows:

In the explanation of the causes of variation between expenditure and grant, it is stated “Expenditure on buildings less than expected (£230,000)”. Was that because of the postponement of some building?—There was a building strike that year which lasted most of the summer and the Board of Works were not able to cope as effectively as they might have done.

161. Deputy Andrews.—On subhead D— Conveyance of Mails—does that mean payment of postmen, etc.?—No, these are contracts with carriers such as railways, air companies, and so on. It is quite a complicated story.

162. Chairman.—On subhead F— Engineering Stores and Equipment—the explanation of the causes of variation between expenditure and grant says that certain contract works, for which provision had been made, did not mature for payment. Does that mean they were not completed or was there some formality which was not complied with in connection with payment?— Mainly, the conversion to automatic exchanges fell short of the expected expenditure by about £250,000 that year and related underground cabling work fell short by £180,000 and certain other works were not completed.

163. Deputy Briscoe.—On subhead H— International Conferences and Conventions— £17,000 seems to be a colossal amount under this subhead. Could we have some information about that?—We are necessarily members of a large number of international organisations, some of the largest in the world—the Universal Postal Union, the International Telecommunications Union and their various subsidiaries. There are consultative committees which we attend, and indeed it is important that we should attend all conferences where our vital interests are concerned. This involves sending delegates to these conferences, and it is really not a lot of money when you consider the ramifications of the post office.

Roughly how many people a year go abroad?—Off hand, I could not tell you. I can say though that all the time we are trying to send the minimum number. For instance, there is a saving here of £2,287. It is due in part to the fact that to the Universal Postal Union Conference a quinquennial affair, we sent two instead of three delegates and in part to the fact that other conferences were not held.

Does this include our subscriptions?—

Chairman.—On subhead H. in the Estimates, the subscriptions are set out as follows:

The expenses are very low. The number of personnel is very low.

Deputy Andrews.—The people sent abroad to these conferences are expert in their particular field?—Yes.

164. Deputy Molloy.—On subhead I.— Losses—might I inquire whether this increase bore any relation to an increase in the volume of business which was up on the previous year? You nearly succeeded in expending the full amount granted.

Chairman.—If the Deputy looks at page 134 under the heading “Losses”, he will find a classified schedule as to what happened in regard to these losses.

Deputy Molloy.—I was not interested in the details. It was estimated that the loss would increase. Was this because of an estimated increase in business?

Mr. L. Ó Broin.—Business is increasing both as regards the number of transactions and the amount of money we have to handle.

The losses are very small?—Very small, indeed.

165. Chairman.—With regard to item No. 4 in the Notes the usual procedure was not followed?—No. This Note refers to the writing off of an outstanding balance of £200 in a claim against a firm which had contracted to creosote and deliver telephone poles. The firm in question was one with which we had continuing contracts over a long period o years for this work. On completion of the creosoting, the poles were held on our behalf and the firm supplied directly from their premises against requisitions from us. When the poles were issued against requisition, they were loaded on the Department’s transport or were put on rail for despatch. There was no specific charge for the work of loading: the firm made allowance for it in their price for creosoting when the payment was made to the firm. The firm went into voluntary liquidation in 1958 and the premises in which some thousands of our poles were stocked was taken over by another firm. This firm would not accept liability for the cost of loading the creosoted poles. The Department’s claim for the cost of delivery of the poles was admitted in the sum of £890 as an unsecured debt. In the outcome we got £689 15s. The Department of Finance gave authority to write off the balance.

166. Chairman.—Members have been supplied with the Accounts of the Post Office Savings Bank and Trustee Savings Banks* and for the first time with the Commercial Accounts of the Department for the year 1964-65.† I notice from the Commercial Accounts that the telegraph system is the big snag?—Yes.

Deputy Healy.—There is no overcoming that?

Chairman.—As long as we intend to maintain the telegraph system we have to pay for it.

Deputy Briscoe.—You have to have it.

Chairman.—The Post Office have got to carry that loss. Thank you, Mr. Ó Broin.

The witnesses withdrew.

The Committee adjourned.

*See Appendix VIII.

*See Appendix IX.

*See Appendix X.

†See Appendix XI.