Committee Reports > List of Committees > Dáil > 1963 > Committee of Public Accounts > Report - Appropriation Accounts 1961 - 1962

MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA

(Minutes of Evidence)

Déardaoin, 21 Feabhra, 1963.

Thursday, 21st February, 1963.

The Committee sat at 11 a.m.

DEPUTY JONES in the chair.

Mr. E. F. Suttle (Secretary and Director of Audit) and Mr. J. R. Whitty (An Roinn Airgeadais) called and examined.

VOTE 29—LOCAL GOVERNMENT.

Mr. J. Garvin called and examined.

189. Chairman.—Paragraph 27 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:—

“Motor Vehicle Duties, etc.

27. A test examination of the revenue from motor vehicle duties, etc., was carried out with satisfactory results. The certificates and reports of the Local Government auditors who examine the motor tax transactions of local authorities are made available to me.

The gross proceeds in 1961-62 amounted to £6,998,657 compared with £6,349,910 in the previous year. They include fines amounting to £58,167 collected by the Department of Justice, £5,864 in respect of fees received under the Road Traffic Act (Parts VI and VII) (Fees) Regulations, 1937, and £63,507 received from government departments in respect of State-owned vehicles. £6,927,000 was paid into the Exchequer during the year and £16,006 was refunded leaving a balance of £141,974 as compared with £86,323 at the end of the previous financial year.”

Have you anything to add to that, Mr. Suttle?

Mr. Suttle.—This paragraph is for information.

Chairman.—I notice there is a steady increase in the revenue from motor vehicles £650,000 increase over 1961-62. Is this all due to an increasing number of vehicles on the road?—Yes.

There is a further sum at the end, of £16,000 which was refunded. Why was that refunded?—There is a general provision for refunds in certain circumstances and that represents the total.

What are the circumstances?—Refunds are payable in respect of licences in certain circumstances where the vehicles cease to be operated.

Has an application to be made to the local authority for that refund?—Yes.

190. Deputy Clinton.—I should like to have that clarified. If I tax a car for a full year and sell it after three months, can I recover some of the tax?—The tax is recoverable in certain circumstances. I cannot give you the terms in respect of the period in which the refund would operate.

It is possible for anybody to make application for a refund?—Yes.

Would it be in the case of a crashed car which would be useless?—Yes, but there are not unlimited facilities for refunds. They are governed by certain conditions.*

Deputy Clinton.—It is a fairly considerable increase to £16,000?

191. Chairman.—Of course, £16,000 out of nearly £7,000,000 is a rather small proportion. If there are no other questions, we will turn to the Vote itself on page 61. In regard to subhead A.—Salaries, Wages and Allowances—you state that there was a payment of incentive bonuses to housing inspectors. Why was it necessary to pay that incentive bonus?— The year under review was an exceptional year, so far as housing grants were concerned. There was a cement strike in the early part of the financial year and in the closing months, work was impeded by bad weather. Meanwhile, there was considerable difficulty in keeping up the quantum of our engineering staff. At that time there was a large increase in the employment of engineers elsewhere and the result was that it was difficult to keep our personnel up to the sanctioned number. Therefore, towards the end of the year, we realised we would be falling short in our payments in respect of the voted money and it was decided as a very exceptional measure to pay this incentive bonus to the inspectors who were willing to avail themselves of the conditions under which they would get it. It was very well earned because it necessitated overtime in the winter months and a very considerable amount of additional labour on the part of each individual concerned.

Deputy Lalor.—Is that still in operation?—No, we stopped it immediately we had wiped out the arrears. We met the gaps in our engineering staff by the recruitment of a new grade called building inspectors who did not necessarily have engineering qualifications but had experience as builders’ clerks of works.

Is it not a case that there is still a big backlog, bigger now than ever?—No.

Is there not?—No.

192. Deputy Clinton.—Is there any relation between this and subhead E.2.— Grants under the Housing (Financial and Miscellaneous Provisions) Acts—where one of the explanations given is in regard to a shortage of inspectorial staff?—That is the saving on the housing grant, yes.

There is a relationship?—That represents the net effect of the difficulties I have mentioned. There was the failure to pay that amount, but in regard to the previous question about an existing backlog, the position is that the amount saved on that subhead was carried forward into the subhead for the subsequent year and there was also provision made for an addition in the total amount of grants for that year. The fact is we are paying off the whole lot this year.

193. Deputy Booth.—Are we to take it that this incentive bonus was paid instead of payment for overtime or was it in addition to payment for overtime?— There was no overtime, just this.

So that it was purely payment by results?—Quite so.

194. Chairman.—In regard to subhead D.—Statutory Inquiries—how many of these were held last year?—I would not be able to say how many we held.

Deputy Clinton.—Could we have some indication of the type of inquiry that this covers? Is it compulsory acquisition and that type of thing?—Mainly, but also inquiries in connection with the closing of burial grounds and various other inquiries under the Public Health Acts, in regard to water supplies and so on, but mainly it is compulsory acquisition for housing purposes.

How are the expenses apportioned as between the local authority concerned and the Department of Local Government?— Any expenses of the Department which are referable to the inquiry can be recouped from the local authority.

In any case where the Department of Local Government and the local authority are concerned in an inquiry, are the expenses of this inquiry apportioned as between the Department and the local authority or does the local authority pay the lot?—I do not see how the Department of Local Government would itself be specifically concerned. It is for the purpose of the local authority that the inquiry is held.

195. Deputy Kenny.—Is the local authority responsible for the upkeep of every burial ground?—No, except where the burial grounds are vested in the local authority. There are other grounds attached to churches and old abbeys and unless they are taken over by the local authority, the local authority is not responsible.

Your department, as distinct from the local authority, is not responsible?—No. Of course, we work entirely through the sanitary authority.

There is a peculiar case in my constituency where there is a road going into a burial ground and the local people have tried to get the road repaired but nobody seems to have any responsibility for the upkeep of the road?—If the cemetery is not vested in the local authority, the local authority is not responsible for providing access, but if it were, I imagine the local authority should be responsible.

The Land Commission would not have anything to do with it?—They would be in the position of a private person.

196. Deputy Clinton.—Reverting subhead E.2.—Grants under the Housing (Financial and Miscellaneous Provisions) Acts—has there been any improvement in the staffing position?—The position is, as I indicated in regard to the housing inspectors, that we have recruited a sufficient number of staff as between housing inspectors and building inspectors. There is a constant turnover. These young men, if they get better jobs, naturally, go for them but, between the two grades of inspectors, we hope to keep up the complement of our staff. We have a competition in progress at the moment for six or more vacancies.

197. Deputy Kenny.—County Mayo is a very large county. I understand there are only two inspectors—two engineers in South Mayo. I do not know about North Mayo. We have one only for new housing and one for reconstruction and I know that they are over-worked. Sometimes you get a backlog of work, as I know from my own experience. Other Deputies are aware of that also. Sometimes we get a relief man down. Is this usual over the other constituencies?—Certainly, it is very common in cases like Mayo that the arrears reach a stage at which they are beyond what could be regarded as the normal number of files to be held by a particular inspector in a particular month and at that stage the matter is reviewed and, as you say, a relief inspector is sent.

I understand that these engineers— inspectors—have no office, which is a matter that must be dealt with?—Yes.

198. Deputy Lalor.—Arising from that, I gather from Deputy Kenny that County Mayo has two inspectors, one of them deals with new houses and the other with reconstruction. I think they cover both? —That is the Deputy’s experience. The situation differs from one place to another. For instance, since we got these new building inspectors, who are not qualified engineers, by and large, the practice has been to let them do the preliminary inspection of reconstruction cases and one might think then that the work was divided invariably between building and housing inspectors on that basis. It may not be.

I take it in certain areas one inspector can be covering reconstruction cases and new houses?—Yes.

Breaking up the area?—Yes. In some areas the other method would involve duplication of travelling.

Deputy Kenny.—I want to pay a compliment to the two men in County Mayo; they are doing a superhuman job and they are only human.

Mr. Garvin.—I am very glad to hear it.

199. Chairman.—In regard to subhead E.4.—Purchase of Shares—can you tell us how many shares were purchased and in whose names were they registered? I refer to the National Building Agency Limited? —There are only a few shares and they are in the names of some of the directors of the Agency and of the Ministers for Finance and Local Government.

Is this the full share capital?—Not at all. It is only nominal. The funds of the Agency will be derived from other sources.

The purpose of setting up the company was more or less the building of houses for white collar workers, was it?—Well, to fill the gap between what private persons may be expected to do for themselves and what it is the responsibility of the local authority to do; in other words, to meet the needs in housing arising in new areas, such as an area in the vicinity of some new industry and also to build for certain public purposes, such as the housing of Gardaí and civil servants in isolated areas.

200. Deputy Kenny.—I may be a bit late in asking a question about this. I could never clarify in my mind the position about housing grants—supplementary housing grants. This would come under subhead E.3. I am not sure about this. Is that not right?—Supplementary housing grants do not arise on the Vote at all.

Do they not?—No, because that is local authority expenditure.

201. Yes, it would be. It would not arise. I was going to ask about the extra £10 given to utility building societies?—That arises all right. That is a State grant, not a supplementary grant.

Could you clarify the position where a man who wants to build his house puts his application through a society?—A public utility society?

He gets through that society, £10 extra from the local authority or from the Department of Local Government?—Yes.

How does that arise?—I do not know whether he does get it or not because the Department pays the public utility society and I take it there must be some contribution by him in respect of his membership of the public utility society.

Usually you have a public utility society, a solicitor and an engineer?—Yes.

But how is it that through that society you get £10 extra?—As I say, I do not know that the applicant really gets the £10 extra or whether he is supposed to expend it in respect of his membership of the society. He does not get the grant from us. It is paid to the public utility society. I do not know what the public utility society will pay the applicant.

202. Deputy Lalor.—The grant paid by the Department is the same?—No; it is £10 more.

Deputy Kenny.—It is £10 more than the usual grant payable to an applicant who makes his own application. You get £10 extra through the public utility society?—And you may have other facilities also.

Deputy Kenny.—It may be that they give a plan and the solicitor’s fees are included in the £10.

Chairman.—Mr. Garvin says he is not aware if the applicant gets the £10 and that the grant is paid to the utility society and I suggest that the Deputy might ask the Minister in the House.

Mr. Garvin.—The Minister would not be able to say, either. As I say, the full grant is paid to the public utility society. The Minister would not be aware of how much the applicant received, except by communicating with the public utility society.

Deputy Kenny.—It is very well known how much the Department pays for a new house—£300. I understand when you put your claim through a public utility society you get £10 extra.

Deputy Lalor.—That cheque is, I presume, made payable from the building society to the individual.

Deputy Clinton.—I think Mr. Garvin has clarified the position already fairly well. There is £10 extra paid by the Department to the utility society but it does not follow that the utility society give that extra £10 to each individual person who builds a house because there are professional services to be met and he has to pay a membership fee which may cost him £10 to that utility society or he may perhaps get a couple of pounds more. There is a solicitor and an engineer.

Deputy Lalor.—When the maximum grant is considered to be £300, how does the Department pay £310? The maximum under the Act is £300?—The Act provides for this additional £10.

203. Chairman.—There is one other question that I want to ask in relation to subhead E.4. Is this National Building Agency a success. Is it proceeding successfully?—Yes. I am informed that they are in charge of a very considerable amount of commitments now.

Deputy Lalor.—Are they building for anybody else other than the Department of Justice at the moment. Are they building for any other Department at the moment?—They can build or they may finance the building by private undertakers of houses in the vicinity of industries, and so on, and I understand that they have a number of such cases on hand. In other words, they can finance the building by other people, just as we finance building by local authorities.

But there is no other Department of State at the moment making use of it?— I am not aware, except the Department of Justice.

Deputy Clinton.—The housing in Shannon has no connection with the agency?—No. The Shannon Free Airport Development Company are doing that themselves.

204. Deputy Kenny.—In regard to subhead G.—Contributions towards Loan Charges of Local Authorities in respect of Sanitary Services Works—if the Department pays £425,000, does that mean that there is a 50 per cent grant paid to the local authorities in respect of loan charges? —The local authority borrows the loan and repays it and in respect of the repayment the Department recoups the local authority certain proportions—40 per cent, 50 per cent, or more—according to the locality. For instance, in the Gaeltacht they get a higher recoupment than they get in Dublin.

Let us say, in Connacht, do they recoup 50/50?—As I say it is higher than 50 per cent in Co. Mayo, let us say. In respect of a scheme in a Gaeltacht portion of Mayo, I think you would get up to 60 per cent or more for recoupment for a sanitary services scheme in respect of the annual loan charges.

205. This is for waterworks and sewerage and things like that?—Yes.

This does not include at all new regional schemes?—It does. This is the total of the recoupment arising in respect of sanitary services loans of this particular year for the whole country.

Deputy Clinton.—That is for capital works?—For capital works. In other words, that would represent roughly the repayments due on perhaps £14,000,000.

206. Deputy Kenny.—So, we are paying almost £½ million?—Yes.

On loan charges of local authorities in respect of sanitary services works all over the country?—Yes.

Loan charges for sanitary services?— For sanitary services loans which are repayable, by and large, over a period of from 30 to 50 years. This represents only one year’s repayments.

But these will never repay themselves —they are not self-liquidating, are they? —Oh, no, except in respect of the social benefit they confer on the country.

207. Deputy Clinton.—There is a question I should like to ask on the same subject. The Department of Local Government has a reputation in local councils of being very far behind with these payments. I should like to know how up-to-date they are?—That is not the case in respect of these payments. We are obliged to liquidate these charges every year.

It is fairly current?—Yes.

208. Deputy Kenny.—In regard to subhead K.—Grants for the Acquisition, Clearance and improvement of Derelict Sites and for Works of Public Amenity— many constituents have come to me about these grants for derelict sites. Does it lie with the local authority engineer or is it your engineer who is responsible for recommending these grants?—We consult the local authority but the individual is free, if he wishes, to apply direct to the Department of Local Government in the first instance.

Do you send down then a directive to the local authority to inspect the site?— We ask them to inspect the site.

Is it the recommendation of the local authority engineer then, on your recommendation, that prevails?—We have our own inspectors as well.

209. I ask these questions because certain applications have been held up indefinitely?—There is a limited sum of money and if there is a derelict site on a by-road where the public seldom have access, you could not expect the Department to be too generous and give that man a grant to remove, perhaps, an old thatched pighouse, or something like that.

I understand that quite well, but such an applicant should be dealt with quickly one way or the other?—I agree.

Either through your engineer or the local authority engineer?—Yes. I thought you meant refusal; you mean delay.

Yes. It would be far better if he were refused at the outset?—Yes.

210. Chairman.—We come now to the Appropriations in Aid. In regard to No. 1—Fees payable by local authorities, etc., for audit of their accounts—on what basis is the charge calculated?—The charges are calculated by reference to the auditor’s salary, but not necessarily the full amount of the salary because, while we confer on the local authorities the benefit of keeping their accounts audited and in order, we also have an interest ourselves in respect of state grants, and so on, and so we do not recover the full salary of the auditor.

Deputy Clinton.—It is the actual time taken then?—Yes, the time taken.

211. Chairman.—In regard to No. 2— Costs payable by local authorities in relation to inquiries—do you recover the full cost?—To the best of my belief, we do. I was asked a question in regard to that in connection with subhead D.—Statutory inquiries—and I see that the expenditure there was over £1,000. Here the appropriation in aid closely approximates to the expenditure, so I take it the recovery is practically in full.

212. In regard to No. 5—Fees payable by applicants under the Housing Acts— how are these assessed?—Under the Departments’ requirements a fee of £2 2s. is payable for each house for which separate plans are submitted but where two or more houses are to be erected to the same plan and on adjacent sites the fee is reduced to £1 1s. for each house. The fee is payable direct to the Department when application is made for the grant and the examination and certification of proposals is carried out by the Department’s Inspectors. This arrangement applies in all areas except Dublin City and County, Limerick County Borough and Cork County Borough. In the latter areas nominated officers of the local authorities concerned act in an agency capacity for the Department for the examination and certification of proposals for the erection of new houses, and fees from the applicants at the rates I have indicated are payable to the local authorities concerned. The total of the individual fees collected by the Department in the financial year 1961-62 was £5,117.

213. Deputy Kenny.—Up to two or three years ago, we had housing inspectors who would inspect houses when the roof was on?—Yes. They are replaced now.

By your own engineers?—That is right.

There was an order made to that effect? —Yes.

Up to that time, the fee to inspect was six guineas, I think, or something like that?—There was a fee to which the appointed officer was entitled. Indeed it frequently occurred that he claimed more in respect of special advice and assistance, which he claimed to have given the applicant.

Some of these housing inspectors were also members of public utility societies and, as far as my experience goes, they gave plans that could have been got at more reasonable prices from the Department? —That day has gone.

It is as well to put it on record that it has gone?—Yes.

214. Deputy Clinton.—With regard to No. 4—Expenses repayable by County and County Borough Councils under section 10 of the Local Authorities (Combined Purchasing) Act, 1925—what are these expenses? Is the local authority not free to use the Combined Purchasing without payment of a fee?—The Act of 1925 provides that the cost of administering the Act each year—the net cost— shall be assessed upon each county council and county borough council in the country in proportion to its valuation, and recovered from it.

It is not in relation to the extent to which it used it?—That is so.

It is on the valuation, irrespective of whether it is used extensively or not at all?—That is right. The Act of 1925 provides for that.

215. Chairman.—With regard to the “Notes”, there is a note which says a sum of £140, an instalment of a grant under the Housing Acts, was paid to an applicant who subsequently failed to complete and occupy the house in respect of which the instalment was paid. Was that house subsequently completed and, if so, had a second grant then to be paid?— My information is that, due to an error on the part of the appointed officer, two certificates of approval were issued in respect of one house. An instalment, the amount referred to in the note, was paid to a certain person, who left the country and could not be located by the Garda. Subsequently the full grant was paid to the proper applicant. I might add that, to prevent a repetition, officers of the Department visited that particular gentleman, and the system of issuing certificates was tightened up.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 30—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION.

Dr. T. Ó Raifeartaigh called and examined.

216. Deputy Clinton.—With regard to subhead B., the saving there was due to unfilled vacancies. Have these vacancies since been filled, or is it necessary to fill them?—The vacancies in the primary branch have been filled since. The vacancies in the secondary branch have also been filled. The vacancies in the technical branch have not been quite filled yet because we are re-examining the position of the inspectorate in that branch at the moment.

Deputy Kenny.—How many districts have you in the country and are they all now filled?—I cannot say how many districts, but they are all filled at the moment. There are 52 district inspectors, among whom there were ten vacancies and these have been filled.

217. What procedure do you adopt in recruiting inspectors?—They are recruited by the Civil Service Commission.

Are they recruited from the existing staff in the various branches?—The field of recruitment is not confined to national teachers or any others. They may be recruited from any class of teacher.

It is just a matter of qualification? —Yes, qualifications and experience generally.

218. With regard to subhead D.— Preparation of Irish Vocabularies—you recruit the help of certain personnel from the various branches of secondary teachers national teachers, and others. I am thinking now of this dictionary?—This subhead is not concerned with the dictionary. This is a token subhead which is a survival from the time when the Department was assembling technical terms of one kind or another in Irish, and which since the year under review has disappeared.

I thought it was the dictionary?—No. The dictionary does not come under this subhead.

219. Chairman.—With regard to subhead F.—Travelling and Incidental Expenses, etc., for the Commission on Higher Education—has the Commission reported yet?—Not yet.

Deputy Clinton.—Is there any indication as to when they may report?—I could not answer that, but I understand they have now heard all their witnesses; they have completed that part of the work.

220. What expenses are involved in our membership of UNESCO?—The Irish contribution to the UNESCO budget is based on .15 per cent of the total UNESCO budget. In the particular year with which we are dealing, Ireland was not received into membership until late in the year, until the 1st October, 1961, and the contribution was therefore reduced to 40 per cent of the amount payable for the full year. There was also in that year an obligatory contribution of 4,500 dollars to the Working Capital Fund of UNESCO. That will not occur again.

Deputy Clinton.—Will £9,000 be our future yearly contribution, representing .15 per cent of the total budget?—That is about right, or perhaps a little more. I should say it would be nearer to £10,000.

VOTE 31—PRIMARY EDUCATION.

Dr. T. Ó Raifeartaigh further examined.

221. Chairman.—Paragraph 28 of the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:—

“Subhead A.3.—Preparatory Colleges, etc., including Contributions to Pension Fund

28. Five of the six residential colleges used to provide secondary education for selected candidates for the teaching profession were discontinued at the close of the school year on 31 July, 1961. Four of the college premises were transferred to their former conductors under agreements for sale which restricted their use to that of class A secondary schools for a period of at least twenty years. The premises and lands of the fifth college were transferred to the Office of Public Works pending a decision as to their future use.”

Have you anything to add to that, Mr. Suttle?

Mr. Suttle.—No. Paragraphs 28 to 32 set out for the information of the Committee the position arising from the closing of the preparatory colleges.

222. Chairman.—One of the five colleges was transferred to the Office of Public Works. Which one was this?—That was Coláiste Bríde, Falcarragh.

Has it been disposed of yet?—That would be a matter for the Office of Public Works, but I understand that so far it has not been disposed of.

223. Chairman.—Paragraph 29 of the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:—

“29. The Department accepted liability for the school fees of 349 former preparatory college pupils who continued their studies to complete the secondary course. The charge to the subhead includes £24,672 in respect of school fees; and contributions by parents or guardians amounting to £5,991 have been appropriated in aid of the vote.”

In regard to the school fees for former pupils who continue their studies, how long will that take?—116 finished their secondary school course on the 31st July, 1962, and the number expected to complete their course in the current school year is 118. The remaining 115 are expected to complete their course in the school year 1963-64.

Are these subsequently bound to enter the training college at the end of their course?—They are bound to do so if they are successful in their course.

Deputy Booth.—If they do not go on, are they compelled to make any refund of the amount already paid for their training so far?—Yes.

That is the only control you have over them?—Yes, that is so.

224. Chairman.—Paragraph 30 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:—

“30. Former preparatory college teachers were permitted to retain their old salary scales if they continued teaching in either secondary or national schools. Compensation for loss of employment was paid to certain teachers and subordinate staff on an ex-gratia basis and amounted to £11,745.”

In respect of the compensation for loss of employment, what was the basis used?—It was decided that they would be permitted to retain the preparatory training college scale should they obtain employment as teachers in primary, secondary or vocational schools. Lay professors only who failed to secure such positions were compensated on an ex-gratia basis as follows: (a) professors with at least ten years’ service were granted a month’s salary for every year’s service plus one-thirtieth of a year’s salary for every year’s service and (b) professors with less than ten years’ service were granted a month’s salary for every year’s service. Of a total staff of 18 lay professors in the preparatory colleges, compensation for loss of office was given to four, to whom the following sums were paid: £1,348, £1,576, £2,927 and £3,828. Of course a dispossessed professor so compensated would be required to refund to the Minister the unexpired portion of the compensation received by him, should he obtain a position remunerated from State funds within the prescribed period of months. The prescribed period of months is calculated at one month for every year’s service.

225. Deputy Kenny.—What happens to the personnel who were employed previously in preparatory college grounds? How are they provided for? Have they been pensioned off?—Those who were serving in temporary non-pensionable posts such as domestic servants, gardeners, farm labourers, boiler attendants and so on?

We have a case in Mayo, hence the experience of Tourmakeady, of a man employed as a steward in the preparatory college under the jurisdiction of a certain Order. How does he fare with the abolition of the preparatory college?—Ex-gratia sums were paid amounting to a total of £2,066 to employees who had at least seven years’ service in the preparatory colleges and as such were eligible for gratuity under the Superannuation Acts. The gratuities in some cases were assessed on the basis of one week’s pay for every year’s service.

All over the country?—Yes.

226. What happened the particular college and the land attached to it?— That was sold to the Order which had been in charge of it previously.

For a nominal sum probably?—Well, that would be the Office of Public Works but I understand it was not for a nominal sum.

We will take that up next year?—Of course those colleges on the market might not fetch as much as you would expect. I understand that the Office of Public Works, although they offered Coláiste Bríde for public auction, have not yet succeeded in selling it.

Deputy Booth.—Do I understand that the sale of four of these premises has been completed?—Yes.

227. Does the sale price come into this Vote?—No.

Where is it accounted for?—Under the Office of Public Works Vote.

Deputy Kenny.—How many preparatory colleges were there?—There were five Catholic colleges and there is still one Protestant one. Coláiste Bhríde is the one of the five mentioned that has not been sold.

Chairman.—I think if Deputies will look at Vote 9—Public Works and Buildings—in the Appropriations in Aid, they will see that sales of property realised £12,295 and the note said that sales realised less than was expected.

Dr. Ó Raifeartaigh.—I am not sure that that represents the actual total. I think the payment is spread over a number of years and that that represents only one year’s payment.

Chairman.—The Committee may take it that this is just an instalment. There is an arrangement for ten to twenty years repayments.

228. Deputy Lalor.—In regard to the four teachers who retired and who were not in a position to get alternative teaching appointments and were paid compensation, have they got re-employment?— I cannot say for certain but I understand that all of them except one who, I think is not in good health, have found re-employment.

That means that a certain percentage of the compensation received would be refunded?—Yes, if re-employment is in a post remunerated from State funds.

229. Chairman.—Paragraph 31 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:—

“Subhead D.—Superannuation, etc., of Teachers

31. The charge to the subhead includes sums amounting to £15,000, approximately, in respect of improvements in pension granted with the approval of the Minister for Finance to certain classes of teachers with pensionable service prior to 1934. The necessary amendment to the Superannuation Scheme has not yet been promulgated.”

Have you anything to add to that, Mr. Suttle?

Mr. Suttle.—No. I understand the scheme has not yet been promulgated.

Dr. Ó Raifeartaigh.—That is so. It has always been the practice in relation to improvements in the superannuation scheme to give them effect as soon as Dáil Éireann has been informed, either by way of Estimate or Supplementary Estimate, of them. The practice has been not to await the adoption or promulgation of the formal schemes, as sometimes the promulgation is delayed in order to avoid the introducing singly of an inordinate number of amending schemes. It is thought preferable to promulgate a number of such schemes together.

230. Chairman.—Is there any indication when this will be ready? The Minister for Finance in his Minute on our last Report mentions that the scheme in question will be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas at an early date?—I am afraid the only comment I could make is to say that it will be done shortly.

Deputy Kenny.—Will the recent White Paper interfere with that?—No. Actually all that money has been paid, I think.

231. Chairman.—Paragraph 32 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General is as follows:

“Suspense Account

32. Reference was made in previous reports to the transfer to a Suspense Account of a sum of £360,000 which was voted for the purpose of making ex-gratia payments in the nature of lump sums to former national school teachers who were on pension on 1 January 1950 or to the widows of such pensioners. Including sums totalling £946 which were issued during the year under review the total payments from the account to 31 March 1962 was £324,744 leaving a balance of £35,256 in the account. The payments were made in accordance with the terms of an amendment to the National School Teachers’ Superannuation Scheme 1934-58 which has yet to be promulgated.”

Have you any comment to add, Mr. Suttle?

Mr. Suttle.—As you can see from the information in the paragraph, the sum transferred to suspense account has been nearly fully expended. There are very few payments outstanding at the moment. Again, in this case the scheme has not yet been promulgated.

232. Deputy Kenny.—In regard to subhead A.2.—Repayable Advances of Training College Fees to Students—I understand you get applications for advances from people who cannot pay the Training College fees. Is that right?—Yes.

How many applications would you get on the average in a normal year?—I cannot say very accurately—about 20 per cent of the students, I should think.

Do you refuse very many of these?—It depends on the parents’ income.

I understand that. We ask these questions from sheer ignorance of the facts but it is the experience of Deputies, especially in the West, that they are asked if they could get an advance and we come here to find out the facts?—Students can get an advance if it is shown reasonably that the parents are unable to pay the fee. We do not ask the advance back immediately, either, but we ask them when they have secured employment as teachers to pay it back at the rate of £26 per annum.

233. How many students would the £21,646 in the accounts under review account for?—I am not able to tell you exactly but I can send you written information of the exact number of students concerned.*

Chairman.—In respect of the 1957-58 accounts, there was a note sent to the Committee regarding fees payable by students in preparatory colleges and training colleges. There is something there about the income of parents, and so on, which may be of some interest.

234. Deputy Kenny.—What is the annual fee for a male student and a female student in a training college?—The fee is £80 for a man and £75 for a woman.

235. In the case of a junior assistant mistress who is called to the training college, on the responsibility of her district inspector, does she pay the same fee? —she does, yes.

And that is deducted from her salary while she is paying a substitute?—Yes.

Does she get the salary herself and pay her substitute?—The teacher gets the salary and then pays the substitute. In the case of illness the Department recoups two-thirds of the salary to the teacher.

To the teacher concerned?—Yes.

Every month or is it annually?—Every month.

236. Chairman.—With regard to subhead B.—Examinations—there is a like provision for secondary schools and technical schools. Is the examination done by a central office and the amount allocated then? Is that it?—Yes, by the Department. The examinations concerned would be the Easter Week examinations for preparatory colleges and entrance to training colleges, county council scholarships, primary certificate examinations, Irish certificate examinations and Gaeltacht scholarship examinations. We receive a reimbursement from the county councils for the work we do for them in connection with their scholarship examinations.

237. Deputy Clinton.—In regard to subhead C.1.—Salaries, etc., of Teachers in Classification Schools and Grants to Capitation Schools—could we have a breakdown of the figure of £9,621,246 as between salaries and capitation grants?— The breakdown is shown in the Book of Estimates, but of course we are concerned here with actual expenditure. Yes, I can give you the breakdown. The salaries of teachers in classification schools, including £304,500 supplementary estimate, amounted to £6,748,807. The grants to capitation schools fall under two headings. Of that to capitation convents and salaries of lay assistants in these, including a supplementary estimate of £68,970, the amount came to £1,680,308, and that to capitation monasteries and salaries of lay assistants in monasteries, including £20,030 supplementary estimate, comes to £490,597. So, it would be for classification schools roughly £6,700,000 as against £2,000,000 roughly for the capitation schools but, of course, the sum relating to the capitation convents and monasteries includes salaries of lay assistants which are paid direct to the lay assistants in these schools.

It includes that?—Yes.

238. Deputy Kenny.—In regard to subhead C.2.—Model Schools, Miscellaneous Expenses—does the Department give a special grant for schools dubbed as model schools or why are they named “model schools”?—They are named model schools because they are survivals of the model schools which up to the time of the Powis Commission in 1870 were being erected by the Commissioners of National Education and were held in trust by them. They had not the outside trustees that ordinary national schools have. The surviving model schools descended to the Minister for Education. In some of them he is trustee and joint manager with the local ecclesiastical authority or in one or two of them the Minister for Education is the sole manager. Those schools are dying out, of course.

239. Yes; but the maintenance of these schools comes under the jurisdiction, I understand, of the Office of Public Works?—Yes, it falls on the Office of Public Works.

That does not mean to say that every school under the jurisdiction of the Office of Public Works is a model school?—It is just a name by which they are called. They are not really model schools any more. They were called model schools because they were originally established for the purpose of training teachers.

240. What I understood about model schools was that they were given the name because students studied the practice of teaching under the supervision of professors in these particular schools? —Yes.

And they were then named model schools and, on account of that, I understood they got a certain specific grant from the Department. You have them in Dublin, Waterford and various other places?—They do not receive a grant, for they belong to and so are the responsibility of the Department itself. It is quite correct that they were founded for the purpose of having teachers practice in them. They were really training colleges of the time but they are just national schools now and no more, except that they are the direct responsibility of the Minister for Education.

241. Deputy Clinton.—They are dying out?—Yes.

Does that indicate that there is an inclination on the part of the Department to hand over the management to the local clergy or is it just a question of schools of that kind being closed?— No; there is an inclination to hand them over and to have them just as other national schools.

242. Deputy Kenny.—This is only a matter of clarification. Was there not some question of the Department at some stage asking the managers of the schools to hand over the maintenance of the schools to the Department or the Office of Public Works?—The managers of the model schools?

Deputy Kenny.—Of the national schools in the country.

Chairman.—I think now we are going outside what Dr. Ó Raifeartaigh could be expected to answer.

Deputy Kenny.—I asked it as a matter of clarification.

Dr. Ó Raifeartaigh.—I think the reply to that question would be more appropriate in Dáil Éireann than here.

243. Deputy Clinton.—On subhead C.4. —Incidental Expenses—could we get some information as to what these expenses are?—Yes, I can give you those.

Roughly?—Maintenance grants came to £49; medical reports on teachers, £25; sets of seeds for school gardening, £63; courses for teachers—kindergarten and music, £62. The main bulk of it was courses in connection with handicapped children, which came to £2,626; then, finally, rent of temporary premises, £203. The excess expenditure was incurred in connection with the introduction, for the first time, of courses for teachers for handicapped children. One of these courses was held in St. Patrick’s Training College, and it now continues to be held for about six months in every year in St. Patrick’s Training College. The other course was held in University College, Dublin.

244. On a point of information, when an institution employs a teacher, the first thing it has to do is to send that teacher on the course. Is the particular institution responsible for the teacher’s salary or does the Department pay it?—If the teacher is selected for that course, the Department recoups his salary and pays his fee at the course.

245. Deputy P. J. Burke.—Under subhead C.3.—Transport Services—what is the method of transporting children? It varies, I suppose, in different areas?—It varies from area to area. We have a general transport service throughout the country. In relation to it a child must be (a) between five and ten years of age and residing at least two miles from school or, (b) between the ages of ten and fourteen and residing not less than three miles from the school, and there must be a minimum of ten children conveyed to qualify for the State grant. We have special bus services here in Dublin daily from Ballyfermot and Finglas to city schools. There is also a service for retarded children to Glenmaroon. In these services the maximum fare charged by Córas Iompair Éireann to the child is 2d. and that represents approximately one-quarter of the total cost. Then we have the special scheme for the transport of Protestant children by agreement with the Representative Church Body. There are special conditions there—more generous conditions—because you are dealing with a small and very scattered community. These are the three main divisions.

I suppose the most of them would be in Dublin and the suburbs?—No. Most of the money is, in fact, spent outside Dublin.

246. Deputy Kenny.—Must there be an average daily attendance to qualify? If a family leaves and the average goes down, does that mean the other children have to walk to school?—No. We make allowances for exceptional cases, and that would be an exceptional one. In exceptional cases the number may be reduced to five. We do not provide for less than five. For example, if a school had to be replaced, provision must be made somewhere for the children during the period of replacement, or in the case the Deputy mentioned.

If a family migrates, the other children do not have to walk?—I do not think that could possibly arise.

If it did arise, it would be treated as exceptional?—It could arise that a family might leave the district, but it would not arise that we would simply wipe out transport services because of one family leaving.

247. Deputy Clinton.—Under subhead C.5.—Free Grants of School Requisites —would occupational therapy equipment be included under this subhead?—It is included. Special equipment for handicapped children is included.

Equipment not only for the actual teaching of them but for the occupation of them in the simplest form?—Yes.

248. Deputy P. J. Burke.—I suppose the demand for more money for handicapped children is increasing?—It is increasing steadily, and the various kinds of catering for handicapped children of different kinds—mentally retarded, blind or hard-of-hearing children and so on— is extending. We now, for instance, even have a special school for emotionally disturbed children.

The service extends now to hospitals?— Yes, we have national schools in hospitals.

249. Deputy Lalor.—I take it these grants are made to special schools. They would not be made to the ordinary country national school that might need equipment for one or two children?—To special schools only.

250. Deputy P. J. Burke.—With regard to subhead C.6.—Grants towards the Cost of heating, etc., of Schools and Cleansing of Out-Offices—do you give a grant to all national schools?—Yes.

If an inspector calls to a school and the heating is very bad, can he go back to the Department and advise that the grant should be increased for that school or, if the grant is very small and incapable of meeting the heating requirements, is the inspector in a position to go to the manager? We have been having complaints about badly heated schools over the years. I know it is a managerial function, but I was wondering whether the inspector would be entitled to inquire whether the grant was adequate or whether it was being spent at all?—The first duty of the inspector would, I suppose, be to inquire whether the grant and its equivalent from the manager was being spent at all. He would find that out from the Department and, if it were not being spent, then action would be taken. The grant is on a general basis. Managers may be recouped one half of the cost, in cash or kind, of fuel and one half of the cost of labour. It is based on the number of teachers in the case of classification schools and on average attendance in the capitation schools. There is nothing to prevent the manager from paying money over and above, if he wants to, or if he feels the school is not heated properly. I may say expenditure on heating has been increasing steadily.

251. Deputy Clinton.—Is that because of more schools or is it because of more generous grants?—The grant was raised substantially some years ago.

The percentage grant?—The actual grant was raised substantially and it is slowly but surely being availed of. I am not sure that all managers realised for the first year or two that there was a good additional grant available. The grant is given annually on the inspector’s certificate that the school is being properly heated.

Deputy Lalor.—Do I take it the grant is really worked out on the basis of the number of pupils or is it the number of rooms?

Deputy P. J. Burke.—Certified expenditure.

Dr. Ó Raifeartaigh.—There have to be vouchers.

252. Deputy Kenny.—I understand central heating is utilised only in three-teacher, or over, schools. I know a school which is two-teacher at the moment, but it will be three-teacher very soon. Has it ever been considered that central heating should be installed initially in a case like that?—We always try to forecast, when a new school is being built, the probable attendance. I am sure if it were considered likely that the attendance would increase, consideration would be given to that.

The specific case I have in mind has not yet been dealt with by your Department. I think it is being considered now. The manager is all for central heating. The teachers and parents are quite willing to give whatever contribution would be necessary to have it installed. I know the school quite well—Knockrooskey, Westport, County Mayo. The rule may be obsolete but perhaps it would be possible now to clarify the position of schools that are just coming up to an average of three teachers. They should be considered for central heating the same as the capitation schools?—Of course the Office of Public Works experts would have to go into this question, too.

Deputy Kenny.—Mr. Mundow has been here, and gone, for this year, and I want to put the baby into your lap.

Chairman.—If you require Mr. Mundow back, we can have him back.

Deputy Belton.—I think this discussion is out of order. It is a matter of policy. I do not see why there should be a differentiation between two-teacher and three-teacher schools in this year of 1963. The cost of installing central heating in any small rural school can be compared with the cost of installing it in a private house, which is approximately £50 per radiator. The ordinary method of heating rural schools is by an open fire grate. In twelve months, the cost of installing central heating would be saved.

Deputy Kenny.—It may be very nearly out of order, but it is very topical because we are all cold.

Dr. Ó Raifeartaigh.—Storage heating is another possibility, but these things are matters for the technical experts.

Chairman.—I am sure when the Estimates come before the House, we will have long contributions on these matters.

253. Deputy P. J. Burke.—In regard to subhead C.7.—Grants towards the Cost of Free School Books for Necessitous Children—who recommends that particular children should get free school books?—The school manager.

254. Chairman.—On subhead E.— Appropriations in Aid—in regard to Nos. 1 and 2, the refund of cost of training and the recovery of training college fees advanced to necessitous students, is there some subtle difference between these two? —Yes. The “refund” concerns teachers who left the teaching service. If they fail to fulfil the terms of their agreement signed prior to their admission, then we require a refund. The refund cases fall into two general categories, civil servants, from whom deductions are made at the rate of six per cent of salary, and others who go into some post other than the civil service and from whom we arrange to have the money repaid. Sometimes such person might leave the country and of course, in that case, it is not so easy to have a repaid. The “recovery” of training college fees advanced is on an ordinary arranged basis of repayment to the Department of £26 a year.

255. Deputy Booth.—In regard to the Reid Bequest, Scheme “C”—I notice in the income account that the cost of advertisements is £52. That seems a very high proportion of total payments under this scheme. Is it strictly necessary to advertise according to the terms of the bequest or is there any other way in which the terms of the scheme could be made known to possible applicants other than by way of Press advertising which is very expensive?—You are quite right in remarking it—it is rather unusual. The £52 is in respect of two years. The charge for the 1960 scheme was not paid until April so that it is really about half that. I think we have to advertise those schemes because people could complain that they had not heard of them.

Deputy Lalor.—Does that expenditure cover the three Schemes and is just charged up to Scheme “C”?—That is the “C” Scheme only.

256. Chairman.—The Committee in its Report dated 5th September, 1962, on the 1960-61 Appropriation Accounts dealing with the accounts of these various bequests and trusts referred to the matter as follows:—

“The Committee had under consideration the accounts of funds administered by this Department under various bequests and trusts. As the audit of the Accounts by the Comptroller and Auditor General ensures that the terms of the bequests, etc. are complied with, it is scarcely necessary to repeat these details annually at the head of each Account. It is also felt that the Accounts themselves could be summarised into two simple statements of Capital and Income without losing very much of the details at present available.”

The minute from the Minister for Finance on the reports says that this is being examined and that the committee will be advised in due course of the results of an examination of the suggestion. Can you tell us anything about that?—We are considering it at the moment. We have not come to a final conclusion. I should say that I received the impression that the committee were divided as to whether the full terms should be published or whether we could compress them in some way.

The Report said:—“it is scarcely necessary to repeat these details annually” and that “the Accounts themselves could be summarised into two simple statements of Capital and Income without losing very much of the details at present available”? —We are considering it. We have not concluded that yet but we shall advise the committee when we have done so.

VOTE 32—SECONDARY EDUCATION.

Dr. T. Ó Raifeartaigh further examined.

257. Chairman.—Paragraph 33 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General says:—

“Subhead E.—Publication of Irish Text Books

33. Reference was made in previous reports to the publication under agreements with a publishing company of certain text books needed by schools conducting courses through the medium of Irish. The agreements provide for the issue of repayable grants towards the cost of production and require the publishing company to pay to the Department any grants made available from the Science and Art Vote through Bord na Leabhar Gaeilge in respect of these books and to refund the balance by half yearly instalments equal to 20 per cent of the amount realised on sales. Including a sum of £235 issued during the year the total issues under fourteen agreements entered into for approved books amounted to £9,382 at 31 March, 1962, comprising £7,595 in respect of ten completed works and £1,787 advance payments in respect of four books publication of which is awaited.

Repayments to 31 March, 1962, including £339 received in the year under review, amounted to £5,530 of which £3,600 derived from grants by Bord na Leabhar Gaeilge and £1,930 from sales.

I am in communication with the Accounting Officer regarding the recovery from the publishers of sums due in respect of sales after 31 December, 1960, and the refund by them of grants amounting to £549 issued by Bord na Leabhar Gaeilge.”

Have you anything to add to that Mr. Suttle?

Mr. Suttle.—The final part of the paragraph refers to sums outstanding from the publisher of the books. We have not yet received a reply from the Accounting Officer.

Dr. Ó Raifeartaigh.—We are taking steps to recover the monies concerned.

258. Chairman.—In regard to that paragraph and the ten completed works, are they in everyday use in class A schools? —Yes.

Have you any idea when the other four will be published?—That is our trouble. That is why we are taking steps to recover the money.

259. Deputy Clinton.—In regard to subhead A.5.—Bonus for Choirs and Orchestras—what is the basis on which these bonuses are paid?—The bonus is paid on the result of an examination for choirs and orchestras conducted by a special panel of examiners employed by the Department

It is not a capital grant towards the purchase of instruments or anything of that sort?—They may so use it, if they so desire. There are two classes of bonus, first class and second class. According to the percentage marks obtained in the examination there is an additional award for special provisions, sight reading and so on. The rates are, for a four part choir, first class bonus, £15; three part choir, first class bonus, £10; two part choir, first class bonus, £5.

That is really only an expression of appreciation. But if you decide to start an orchestra, there is considerable expenditure at the outset on instruments and is there any grant towards that sort of provision?—Well, there is not any specific grant——

Deputy Clinton.—I am sorry: This is secondary education; I was thinking of vocational education.

260. Deputy Kenny.—To revert to subhead A.—Special Grants for Excellence in Oral Irish—this is only a token vote but how much is paid per year or is anything paid?—Nothing. That lapsed with the introduction of the oral Irish section in the Leaving Certificate examination. The like effect is being achieved.

VOTE 33—TECHNICAL INSTRUCTION.

Dr. T. Ó Raifeartaigh further examined.

261. Chairman.—In regard to subhead E.—Annual Grants to Vocational Education Committees—besides the grant made by the Department and what is raised from the local vocational committee by way of rates, is there any other source of income which these vocational education committees have?—The students’ fees. I think they do not amount to more than five per cent of the total income.

Do you receive any reports from these committees?—We receive an annual review from each committee.

262. Deputy Clinton.—Does this cover special grants to vocational education committees who have exceeded the statutory limit?—It does; it covers those grants too. It works like this. Dublin city and Dún Laoghaire receive £2 from the State for every £1 from the rates. The number of scheduled areas is eight in all, starting with Bray and going on to Wexford, Waterford, Cork, Tralee, Galway, Sligo and Drogheda. They receive £4 for every £1 raised locally. Counties Donegal, Mayo, Galway, Kerry, Longford, Clare and Leitrim, receive £2 for £1 also from the State. The Committees’ overall income from the State throughout the 26 Counties is about £2 in proportion to £1 from the local rates. In addition, as the Deputy mentioned, you have occasional ad hoc sums to tide a committee over a year in which it had reached its maximum income based on the local rate and the State grant.

263. How is the percentage contribution decided? The contribution from the Department and the vocational committees in the various areas, vary as between one area and another, is that not so?—I should have added that in most counties it is simply pound for pound. It was fixed that way originally. There is also in addition a small basic grant also given by the Department. It varies according to need, really, I suppose. In the case of a small town like Wexford or Drogheda, and so on, the local rate, if there were only £ for £ given ——

Would not provide the services?—It would not. You have to give £4 to £1 in cases like that. Again, where you have very large demands, especially in regard to purely technical education, it is much more expensive than where the great majority of schools would be just continuation schools almost. The population and the rateable valuation are taken into account also and the whole matter is being constantly considered.

Deputy Lalor.—I would say that originally there was a hard and fast rule but it has been deviated from, is that it?—Yes. In regard to the counties it was £ for £ up to about ten years ago. Then in certain counties where the rates were not so productive it was changed in order to help those poorer counties, you might say—the less well off.

Deputy P. J. Burke.—What about County Dublin now?

264. Deputy Kenny.—Is there not a ceiling on the rate per £ by the county council?—No. The ceiling is fixed by law which is amended from time to time, that is, the ceiling to which a vocational education committee can go in its demand. We raised the ceiling in all cases last year, for example.

Has that ceiling, in the various local authorities, been raised to the maximum? —The ceiling is the maximum but, of course the vocational education committees take years to reach that ceiling. We gave them power under last year’s Act to make an increase of 3d. in the £ in special cases. Generally, they go up by 1d. (and get 2d. from us, or 4d., as the case may be) until they reach the ceiling. Then amending legislation would have to be brought in to enable them to go to a higher ceiling again.

VOTE 34—SCIENCE AND ART.

Dr. T. Ó Raifeartaigh further examined.

265. Chairman.—On subhead B.1.— Publications in Irish—is there a falling off there in the material being submitted? —There is. There has been, over a number of years, a falling off in the material.

Are the sales of the publications satisfactory?—Most of the works offered for publication, I must say, are not satisfactory but we do accept the good ones, the satisfactory ones.

266. On subhead B.4. — Comhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge (Grant-in-Aid)— has the Comhdháil any other source of income beyond the grant that is made?— Not that I am aware of.

It publishes an annual report, I take it?—Yes.

267. Deputy Kenny.—On subhead B.6. —Grants to Colleges providing Courses in Irish—this would refer to colleges like Ring and Ballyvourney and places like that?—Yes.

It is the summer course in Irish?— It is summer colleges. The large excess there is due to a sudden increase in the number of these colleges. The increase arose, apparently, from the introduction of the oral test in the leaving certificate examination. So there is an increase in the number of colleges and also a sudden increase in the number of students taking those summer courses.

How many colleges would you have in operation under that head?—There are 30 colleges. The exact number was 30 in that year.

268. Does the Ring College for juveniles come under subhead B.6.?—The Ring College for children is a national school. It is an ordinary national school, treated normally as a national school in the Gaeltacht. The summer courses in Ring College would come under this subhead, but not the national school section.

269. Deputy Belton.—Under subhead B.7.—Grants to Periodicals published in Irish and Newspapers publishing current News in Irish—what newspapers would they be?—Local papers of one kind or another in Waterford, Donegal, Kerry and so on. They publish a column or two occasionally.

Deputy Kenny.—Do they get a grant for that?—They get small grants for that. It does not come to much, I am sorry to say.

270. There is a paper in Westport called the Mayo News. I understand that is being paid for wholly and completely by the Government under the name of Inniu, or something like that. Could you give us any clarification about that particular newspaper?—We pay a grant to the weekly newspaper, published entirely in Irish, Inniu. That grant is related to the newspaper Inniu and to absolutely nothing else. The owners of Inniu, I understand, have an interest— I do not know to what extent and it would not be my business to know— in the Mayo News, which is published in English, but we do not pay in this or any Vote towards publications in English. We are concerned entirely with the weekly Irish newspaper, Inniu.

Deputy Belton.—Is there any evidence with the Department that the Western News and the newspaper Inniu are run or registered as two different concerns or are they throwing all their assets into the one pot, as it were?—That is really not our concern at all. I mean, no more than a summer college. We pay grants to a summer college for teaching pupils or students and if the managers of that summer college chose to organise an industry or something else, that would not concern us. We are merely concerned with what they do for us. These people produce this weekly newspaper Inniu and we pay them for it at so much per week and what they do otherwise would not be our concern at all, as long as they show us that they have produced this Irish newspaper.

271. Would the Department not require evidence of certain circulation?—Yes.

The Department do get evidence of that circulation?—We must receive fully audited accounts of the costs as well as circulation—everything in connection with Inniu and with every other Irish newspaper which we support.

272. Chairman.—On subhead B.8.— The Irish Folklore Commission (Grant-in-Aid)—what publications are made by the Irish Folklore Commission?—I understand that while they do not, technically, publish the Journal of the Irish Folklore Society, that is, Béaloideas, they subsidise it largely. As well as that, they have published a work called Studies in Irish and Scandinavian Folk Tales by Kurt Christiensen, a Norwegian expert. That has been published recently. Their most recent work, which appeared about two months ago, which I have just been reading, is a book called The Festival of Lughnasa, by Máire Mac Neill. In a review in the journal of the Irish Antiquaries’ Society I have seen it stated that this is one of the finest books of this century in that particular field. I may say it is a very expensive book— 4 guineas—but it is a classic on that particular aspect of folklore.

273. Deputy Kenny.—About 20 years ago there was a circular sent to all national schools to collect all the béaloideas they could get. This applied particularly to Gaeltacht areas. I was in a Gaeltacht area at the time. All the children brought in their own accounts and read out all the stories and folklore. What happened to all these? Were they ever compiled?—They were all collected by the Department and handed over to the Folklore Commission. It is the Folklore Commission’s function to work constantly on those and its other collections. They sift and compare them and hope eventually to publish learned works on them. In fact, The Festival of Lughnasa, the book I mentioned a moment ago, is based on the material, including those stories gathered in schools, which is in the archives of the Folklore Commission, as well as on other learned material.

274. Chairman.—In regard to item No. 1 of the Appropriations in Aid—Fees for Tuition in National College of Art —receipts were higher than estimated. Is there any element of an increase in fees in that or was it due to a larger number of enrolments?—No; the increase was not in fees but in the number of students.

VOTE 35—REFORMATORY AND INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS.

Dr. T. Ó Raifeartaigh further examined.

275. Deputy Clinton.—Under subhead E—Parental Moneys—Collection expenses —the note says: “Saving due to the introduction of new arrangements for the collection of contributions in the Dublin area”. Could we have some explanation of that?—The saving in the Dublin area is due to the retirement of a collector, who was a Garda pensioner. We made arrangements on his retirement, for our office to carry out the collections and not to employ a new collector.

Deputy Kenny.—In regard to that subhead, what exactly are “Parental Moneys”?—These are moneys which the court orders to be collected from parents in support of the children in industrial schools.

VOTE 36—DUBLIN INSTITUTE FOR ADVANCED STUDIES.

Dr. T. Ó Raifeartaigh called.

No question.

VOTE 37—UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGES.

Dr. T. Ó Raifeartaigh further examined.

276. Deputy Clinton.—I am curious as to why there should be two separate grants for National University and University College, Dublin?

Chairman.—They are two different bodies.

Dr. Ó Raifeartaigh.—The National University is the central body; it includes the constituent colleges of Dublin, Cork, Galway, and the recognised college of Maynooth.

Deputy Clinton.—All the constituent colleges?—Yes. The office is in Merrion Square.

The parent body and the administration? —The teaching colleges of which it is the administrative parent.

277. Deputy Kenny.—In regard to University College. Dublin, you have certain grants given to students from abroad. Could you clarify for us the difference between grants given to students from abroad and students from this country?—Grants given by whom?

Deputy Kenny.—I understand there are certain grants given to students who come in here to university from other countries.

Mr. Suttle.—That would be the exchange scholarship scheme?

Dr. Ó Raifeartaigh.—I understand. It is the exchange scholarships. Those are on the Vote for the Department of External Affairs, I think. It is an arrangement for using the moneys which were residual out of the American Loan Counterpart Fund. The United States Congress, I understand, presented us with that money, and this body was set up to send students, or professors, or assistants, or lecturers, to the United States, so many each year, and we would receive back here so many United States students, or university staff, or indeed, other people as well as university people.

278. Deputy Kenny. — Does every student in University College, Dublin, pay the very same fees? Does every Irish student pay the same fees as a student from Ghana, or England, or Nigeria?—No. I understand that the students from outside Ireland pay 50 per cent more in all our colleges.

Fifty per cent extra?—Yes. I am not quite certain if that is the case in the College of Surgeons, but it is the case in the university colleges.

The witness withdrew.

The committee adjourned.

* Note by Accounting Officer:

Refunds of motor tax are made in certain cases. Following are some examples—non-user, change of user, export, destruction of vehicle, statutory refunds on alteration of appropriate rate of tax.

* See Appendix XX.