Committee Reports > List of Committees > Seanad > 1962 > Select Committee on Statutory Instruments (Appointed 21st March, 1962) > Report No. 01 (1963) - Statutory Instruments [11]

MIONTUAIRISCÍ NA FIANAISE

(MINUTES OF EVIDENCE)

Dé Céadaoin, 13 Meitheamh, 1962.

Wednesday, 13th June, 1962.

The Committee sat at 4.30 p.m.

SENATOR G. O’BRIEN in the chair.

FOYLE AREA (RESTRICTION OF NETTING) REGULATIONS, 1961

Mr. M. J. Fletcher, (An Roinn Tailte) called and examined.

1. Chairman.—Mr. Fletcher, you represent the Fisheries Division, Department of Lands. Your Department received a communication from this Committee which I need not read. The points in it are perfectly clear. There are two points raised: first of all, the date of commencement of the Regulations and secondly, the availability of the map on which the Regulations depend. You have been good enough to come to clear up these points and we should be pleased to hear what you have to say.

Mr. Fletcher.—I will clear up the point about the commencement date first. We take the view that the regulations come into force on the date on which they are confirmed by the Ministry and the Minister, the later date to apply if there are two dates. The dates are the same in these Regulations namely, 28th February, 1961. We take that date as the date of commencement.

2. Senator Sheldon.—I thought it had been agreed that it would be preferable to state the operative date in the instrument itself?—On that point I would agree that it was. It had been intended to put in a commencement date. The omission was due to oversight.

3. Would you agree, Mr. Fletcher, that it would be preferable to put in an operative date in all such instruments?—Yes. That will be done in future. I can offer that assurance on behalf of the Commission.

4. Chairman.—On the second point, Mr. Fletcher, have you anything to say about the availability of the map?—In my letter I explained that the original map is kept in the Commission’s head office in Derry. A certified copy of the map is available in the office at Ballindrait, Lifford. These are available for inspection, if required. I might explain that the greater part of the Regulations are a repeat of 1953 Regulations. One change is that the map has been certified and read into the Regulations; the only other significant change is the prohibition of netting on the River Finn which should not give rise to any difficulty. The reason for quoting the map on this particular occasion is that the Commission prosecuted a poacher and District Justice Larkin dismissed the case on the grounds that the boundaries should be proved in Court by a reference to an Ordnance Survey map certified by an engineer. The Commission appealed the case and won the case on the appeal but the learned Judge applied the Probation of Offenders Act which involved the Commission in costs. The map as referred to in the Regulations is the answer to the suggestion that it should be proved in court by an engineer. If it were feasible it would be incorporated as part of the instrument but, unfortunately, it does not adapt itself to reduction in size. It is a clumsy map. It is a conglomeration of Ordnance Survey maps from the north and south sides.

5. Senator Sheldon.—I see that copies of the map are available at the Commission’s offices in Derry and Ballindrait. How does the Commission’s office in Ballindrait come to have a copy?—It is in the house of a Head River Watcher of the Commission. Both he and his residence are well-known to fishermen and others. For convenience sake it is located there.

6. Many fishermen know him?— They know this man quite well.

Mr. Fletcher.—May I offer one other comment. The Commission made two Regulations this year. There is no commencement date on them. There are no complications but I can assure the Committee that the Committee’s point about the commencement date will be brought to the notice of the Commission. I give you notice in advance. I brought copies along in case anybody wishes to see them.

Chairman.—Thank you Mr. Fletcher.

The witness withdrew.

FOOD HYGIENE (AMENDMENT) REGULATIONS, 1961

Mr. A. MacCormaic (An Roinn Sláinte) called and examined.

7. Chairman.—Mr. MacCormaic, you are aware of the business before the Committee which is in relation to the Food Hygiene Regulations, 1961. You have been good enough to come to answer some queries raised by the Committee with regard to these regulations. No doubt you have considered the points raised by the Committee. Would you like to make any observations on them?— I should like to make a few background remarks which may help to place the queries raised by the Committee in context. This is the pasteurisation of ice cream process. It is very important from the health point of view that pasteurisation should be efficient. It is mainly designed to protect the public against infectious diseases, such as enteric fevers and others. As the Committee is aware specific alternative procedures are already laid down in the Regulations in relation to time and temperature. Recent developments have established what is in effect a new method of pasteurisation. There are differences in time and temperature in relation to what is known as the “mix”, that is, the mix which is subject to this process before it emerges as ice cream after cooling—heating first and then cooling. Up to the recent Regulations there was a system known as the “holder” system which provided for a fairly long period of “holding” in a vat, receptacle or container for 15 or 30 minutes at the relatively low temperatures of 160° and 150° F as you will see from the Food Hygiene Regulations. The more recent development—entirely new so far as this country is concerned—which came to our notice was a system of short-time high temperature, i.e., temperatures of say 175° for about 15 seconds. In the first method, known as the “holder” method, the mix is actually put into a vat, container or receptacle and is then heated, emptied and cooled. The time temperature controls are relatively easy. Efficient pasteurisation, I emphasise again, is very important. With the second method, instead of a “holder”—although there is some period of “holding”—there is a continuous flow process because, as you can see, 15 seconds is a very short period. This is a much more complicated method than the earlier “holder” method. When it first came to our notice we had to send a technical officer to London to investigate it. An Irish firm was anxious to start this new system. To ensure that it was suitable in the interests of public health we sent over this officer to investigate it. Developments have been taking place in this highly technical field of pasteurisation relating to this short time high temperature processing. The temperature of 175° for 15 seconds and the machines associated with this processing can be subject to fairly wide variations. For instance, there has been experimentation going on with temperatures as high as 230° for two to three seconds. The machinery associated with that is highly complex and it is necessary, as there is no test for efficient pasteurisation, to control all stages of the methods, devices and conditions of the particular type of machine. In fact, there has been an even more recent development which involves the use of a vacuum method about which I know very little, but the temperature there is 198° F and the retention period is approximately 1 second. This machinery is very, very complex. Having regard to the wide variations it was felt at the time this matter was under consideration that it would be more flexible to permit of a discretionary exercise of approval by the Minister in relation to time, temperature and machine controls rather than lay down precise figures of time and temperature. It is really, therefore, a question of flexibility versus precision. In regard to processing, in certain respects there would have to be some measure of devolution and delegation to the Minister in control. I hope I am making myself clear. It is a rather complex subject. In one way it is possible to be precise, but precision would be in relation to each new machine coming on the market. For instance, in the first case that came to us for approval, following investigation of the process in England, we realised that installation is a vitally important stage, because it is necessary to ensure that the machine works properly and that pasteurisation is efficient. There is a complicated series of what is known as thermostatic controls, valves, pumps and so on. That was worked experimentally for a period. The possible future variations in these times, temperatures and machines were really responsible for what might appear the arbitrary nature of the new regulation. It was designed actually to be a flexible instrument to meet changes in the new processes of pasteurisation.

Chairman.—Thank you very much, Mr. MacCormaic; that was a very interesting and lucid statement.

8. Senator Sheldon.—I should like to ask a question on the format of the regulation. The regulation, in fact, repeats the earlier regulation except that a new paragraph is added. I am wondering why that was done. Would it not have been clearer, with the type of changes being made, if only paragraph (b) of Article 2 had been published, as the new Part (a) is a repetition of what was already there?—That is quite right. The only answer I can give is the desirability of having a separate regulation, a separate article. As this Article 48 is related entirely to time and temperature, it was desirable to have them together under one article. It was really a question of drafting taste more than of principle.

9. This is a bit complex. In effect, the original purpose of the regulation was to make perfectly clear what would be done. Now, is not the effect of this new paragraph (b) that nobody is clear at any particular moment except the owner of a particular machine?—As I was saying, in relation to the case that we have had, that particular firm became aware of this new short-time, high temperature process in Great Britain, which is very suitable for the larger businesses. The holder vat or receptacle process is more suitable for the smaller trader. When the firm became aware of it in England, they came along to us and we felt we should advise the Minister that this was suitable. If another firm comes along with a variation of that time, temperature, or with a different type of machine which may possibly have different devices—valves, pumps, thermostatic controls—we will certainly examine them. There would be no suggestion of capricious administration. The whole thing is designed to protect the public by ensuring that their ice cream is free from pathogens.

10. Is it perfectly clear that no method of making ice cream will be possible unless it complies with either (a) or (b), that no one may start a machine and say: If you heat it to 260° it will take a quarter of a second?—A machine has, in fact, been started under (b). I am not clear as to your query.

11. I want to make sure that no machine can slip in that is under neither (a) nor (b). How can you ensure that someone has a machine which will involve new permission from the Minister? How does the Minister determine on the facts given him by a particular firm, that a machine does, in fact, produce proper pasteurisation, if each one is a bit different?—One of the fundamental needs is expert control, both at the installation and working stages. Where milk is pasteurised there is a technical test to ensure that the pasteurisation is efficient and that is known as the phosphatic test; there is no such test in the case of ice-cream. Bacteriological experimental work is at present in operation but there is no specific test in relation to the effectiveness of pasteurisation. It is done by way of inspection. That inspection is exercised at the moment by a particular officer who has made a special study of it. If other processes are, in fact, being used, they will come under the notice of the enforcing officers of the health authorities. The officers who enforce the new hygiene regulations are the Health Inspectors and the Medical Officers. Probably it would come to the notice of the Department of Agriculture through their wide contacts with the dairying industry. It would come to our notice in that way. Practically, however, nobody is likely to instal a costly unit like this unless he is in business in a big way, and it is likely to pay. One of the advantages is that it saves time through a continuous flow process; it also saves space. If properly controlled, it is supposed to be more efficient. On the last item I am not competent to judge.

12. Will it make ice cream any cheaper? I take it that what will happen is that if someone wants to set up a specific machine he will go to you and get a special regulation made in respect of it?—Yes, in a sense. First of all, a knowledge of the machine and a knowledge of the principles of its apparatus and working are essential. In principle, you see, it looks good: you instal it at your own risk. Our officer sees that the installation is effective, and then it has to be put working; so the control is pretty rigid. This is very important as ice cream is a very vulnerable food.

13. Senator Brennan.—There is really no standard?—No, other than a chemical standard.

14. You would be afraid to go too far. These machines, I presume, are being used elsewhere?—They are used in Great Britain.

15. They have a standard there?— There is a relatively discretionary standard in Great Britain. The devices in the machines have to be subject to ministerial control as well. The whole position of this high temperature and short time method is still in a state of flux and experiment.

Senator Brennan.—I understand; I think it is reasonable.

Mr. MacCormaic.—I hope I have made it clear. This is not an easy field.

16. Senator Sheldon.—The main point is you cannot prescribe temperature limits or time limits?— Except for a particular new machine: that could be done and that would give you precision. It is the merit of that versus a reasonable discretion in ensuring that the big firms in Dublin know that if they want to introduce this or an alternative method, all they have to do is to come along to us. We have no original research in this field in Ireland. The big producers of ice cream go to England to study the position there.

Chairman.—Thank you very much Mr. MacCormaic.

The witness withdrew.