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MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA(Minutes of Evidence)Dé Céadaoin, 2 Samhain, 1960.Wednesday, 2nd November, 1960.The Committee sat at 5.15 p.m.
Liam O Cadhla (An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste), Miss M. Bhreathnach and Mr. C. J. Byrnes (An Roinn Airgeadais) called and examined.ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN.1. Deputy O’Toole.—I propose that Deputy Cosgrave, the outgoing Chairman, should act again this year. He was very useful and dealt expeditiously with the business last year. Deputy Moloney.—I second the proposal. Question put, and agreed to. DEPUTY COSGRAVE took the chair. Chairman.—I should like to thank the proposer and seconder and the members of the Committee for the honour they have done me in re-electing me as Chairman. I should like to say that without the co-operation of the members of the Committee it would not be possible to get through the work which the Committee is charged by the Dáil to carry out. I should also like to acknowledge the very able assistance of the Comptroller and Auditor General and his staff and of the Clerk to the Committee. This Committee is the same as last year’s so I suppose it is not necessary to go through the particular functions of the Committee. We can start with the next item on the Agenda. GENERAL REPORT.Mr. T. K. Whitaker called and examined.2. Chairman.—Paragraph 1 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General is as follows:— “Outturn of the Year (Adjusted to the nearest £) 1. The audited accounts are summarised on page xxxvii. The amount to be surrendered as shown in the summary is £2,812,812 arrived at as follows:—
This represents 2.3 per cent. of the supply grants as compared with 1.9 per cent. in the previous year. The principal savings were:—
In this paragraph there is a reference, Mr. Whitaker, to the excess on Vote No. 59, External Affairs. Is the Department satisfied about that?—The Department of Finance is satisfied that there is a reasonable excuse for the excess but, as you know, it will be coming up for examination. 3. Chairman.—Paragraph 2 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General is as follows: “Excess Vote 2. Expenditure amounting to £7,573 over and above the gross provision made by the Oireachtas has been incurred on Vote No. 59, External Affairs, and will require an excess vote. There were surplus receipts of £636 under appropriations in aid (see also paragraph 94 of this report).” 4. Chairman.—Paragraph 3 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General is as follows: “Exchequer Extra Receipts 3. Extra receipts payable to the Exchequer as recorded in the appropriation accounts amounted to £648,405.” I note from the Exchequer Extra Receipts that some Departments are bringing small amounts into account. Was it not agreed some time ago that such amounts should be brought in as Appropriations in Aid?—It was so agreed and a good deal has been done in that direction. More remains to be done. The question of having token appropriations in aid subheads in Votes to enable all receipts to be brought to account in that way is under consideration. 5. Chairman.—Paragraph 4 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General is as follows:— “Surrender of Balances on 1958-59 Votes 4. The balances due to be surrendered out of votes for the public services for 1958-59 amounted to £2,193,945. I hereby certify that these balances have been duly surrendered.” 6. Chairman.—Paragraph 5 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General is as follows:— “Stock and Store Accounts 5. The stock and store accounts of the Departments have been examined. The results are satisfactory, with some exceptions which are referred to in paragraphs relating to the votes of the Departments concerned.” 7. Chairman.—Paragraph 6 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General is as follows:— “National Development Fund (Winding up) Account 6. As indicated in paragraph 7 of the previous report the balance in the Winding up Account at 31 March, 1959, was £1,521,995 (including £16,875 in the hands of agent Departments). Issues to Departments in the year amounted to £310,060, viz.:—
The statements appended to the accounts of the relevant votes indicate the expenditure incurred on the various projects during the year under review.” Chairman.—When is it expected that work will be completed on the National Development Fund schemes?—As is pointed out by the Comptroller and Auditor General, the amount that remained still unspent on 31st March, 1960 was £1,219,037 out of a total amount provided of £7.8 million. Of that £7.8 million the present position is that £7.7 million was allocated for various schemes; just under £100,000 was unallocated. The unallocated amount plus the amounts allocated for certain projects since abandoned are available to meet expenditure. The total amount available is £279,000 and it seems likely, since some of the allocations were made as long ago as seven years on the basis of the estimate prepared then, that the actual expenditure will be in excess of the allocation and we expect that this unallocated amount of £279,000 will all be required to discharge expenditure on the approved schemes. Some of the work is still in progress?— Yes. Various schemes have not yet been completed. Deputy Jones.—Could you tell us what was the expenditure from that Fund in respect of this year?—A sum of £310,060. Chairman.—Do I understand work has not started on some of these undertakings? Provided the proposal was sanctioned initially the money will be available?—It is still regarded as a commitment but I have no note of any which have not yet been started. I have a note of several which are still in progress and not completed. 8. Chairman.—Paragraph 7 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads as follows:— “7. The expenditure on projects since the establishment of the Fund to 31 March 1960 was as follows:—
Expenditure on projects carried out by local authorities is examined by Local Government auditors whose certificates are made available to me. In the case of grants issued to the Inland Fisheries Trust, An Bord Iascaigh Mhara and An Óige, I have accepted their auditors’ certificates as evidence of the expenditure incurred thereform. The balance in the Winding up Account at 31 March 1960 was £1,219,037 (including £23,977 in the hands of agent Departments).” 9. Chairman.—Paragraph 8 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads as follows:— “8.—Statement of Receipts into and Issues out of The Central Fund for the Year Ended 31 March, 1960
VOTE 1—PRESIDENT’S ESTABLISHMENT.Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.10. Deputy Sheldon.—On subhead B.B. —Travelling, etc., Expenses in connection with Visit to United States of America by the President—I am thinking of the Contingency Fund. Where would the figure of £1,622 show?—It is shown in the account of the Contingency Fund. It does not show in the Vote itself?— No. Is it included in these sums here or does it come within the next year?—I am not sure how one reconciles these two figures of £2,865 in the Vote and £1,622 which appears in the Contingency Fund. If you like I can give you a note about it. Chairman.—You do not know what purpose the £1,622 was for?—It was an advance of a Vote provision to meet the cost of buying tickets, and so on. Deputy Sheldon.—The figure I was really thinking of was the £1,022 which is connected with the installation of the President but this should more appropriately arise on the Contingency Fund Account. VOTE 2—HOUSES OF THE OIREACHTAS.Mr. T. K. Whitaker called.No question. VOTE 3—DEPARTMENT OF THE TAOISEACH.Mr. T. K. Whitaker called.No question. VOTE 4—CENTRAL STATISTICS OFFICE.Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.11. Deputy Moloney.—On subhead E. —Special Statistical Inquiries—there is a footnote which reads: “Additional assistance for the National Farm Survey was not required to the extent anticipated.” Could we have some explanation as to why additional assistance for the survey was not required to the extent anticipated? What factors helped to keep down the expenditure?— The National Farm Survey was in process of being wound up in its original form during that year. When the Estimate was prepared it was not expected it would be wound up so quickly and an excess provision was made for clerical assistance at that time. 12. Deputy O’Toole.—On subhead F.— Subscriptions, etc., to International Organisations—is that a fixed annual charge?—Yes, until this year. There are now additional subscriptions for membership of the Society for International Development at the rate of $6 per annum and for the Econometrics Society at a fixed rate. Deputy Sheldon.—In the Estimate this is merely given as a subscription to the International Institute of Statistics?— That is the main element in it. In mentioning other bodies I was really explaining an increase which has since been provided for. VOTE 6—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE.Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.13. Chairman.—On subhead C.—Incidental Expenses—what rights or advantages does membership of the Institute of Public Administration confer?—The main object of the Institute is to improve the standard of public administration and we, in the Department, think that its objects are very good and that it helps Departments considerably in discharging their functions. For that reason we agreed to make a contribution of £1,500 a year to it on behalf of Departments as a whole to cover their membership and provide the Institute with funds to carry out its work. It organises study groups, lectures, training courses, and so on, for people in the public services generally, not only the Civil Service. Deputy Cunningham.—It includes local government?—Yes, local authorities. It publishes a quarterly?—It publishes a quarterly called Administration and it does quite a lot to improve standards. Is it necessary for civil servants to pay a subscription?—There is a small annual fee paid by individual civil servants for membership as well as the Departmental subscription. 14. Deputy Sheldon.—With regard to the amalgamation of subheads B., C., D., and F., will there be any distinction made in Part III with regard to subhead F.?—Yes. VOTE 11—MANAGEMENT OF GOVERNMENT STOCKS.Mr. T. K. Whitaker called.No question. VOTE 12—STATE LABORATORY.Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.15. Mr. Whitaker.—Interest was ex-expressed last year in the number of samples submitted to the State Laboratory for analysis and I have got the figure. Sixty eight thousand samples were received in the year by the laboratory for analysis from the Revenue Commissioners, Agriculture and other Departments and public bodies. Chairman.—Have private individuals access to the laboratory?—Traders of various kinds do send in samples. Some 8,000 samples of dairy glassware were submitted for testing under the Dairy Produce Act. VOTE 13—CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION.Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.16. Deputy Sheldon.—Did the Department get a copy of a book written by an English civil servant on ways to reduce the numbers of civil servants?—No comment, Sir. Deputy Moloney.—In regard to subhead E.—Appropriations in Aid—they have increased by £400. Could Mr. Whitaker explain more fully how we have been able to get such a substantial increase there?—The increase is connected with reduced fees for candidates for Local Appointments Commission competitions and a consequential increase in the amount payable by local authorities in respect of the cost of services rendered to them by the Local Appointments Commission. There was also an excess of Extra Exchequer Receipts on the amount estimated due to the fact that there was quite a big increase in the number of applications for particular competitions, especially the Executive Officer competition for which the age limit was reduced from 18 to 17 and the numbers rose from 136 to 419. There was also an increase in the numbers of applicants for posts of Clerical Officer and Junior Postman, formerly known as Boy Messenger. Chairman.—Did the title help to obscure the nature of the work?—It resulted in almost doubling the number of applicants. 17. Have applicants for the Executive Grade to have Leaving Certificate?—Yes, it is virtually Leaving Certificate Honours standard and I think the syllabus is related to the particular year’s Leaving Certificate Examination. 18. Deputy O’Toole.—I suppose the Commission sits in various places?— Examination centres are set up throughout the country according to the need of the particular examination. VOTE 14—AN COMHAIRLE EALAION.Mr. T. K. Whitaker called.No question. VOTE 15—COMMISSIONS AND SPECIAL INQUIRIES.Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.19. Deputy Cunnigham.—In regard to subhead D.—Travelling and Incidental Expenses, etc.—of the Commission on Income Taxation, is that the Commission the report of which was issued today?—Its third report has just been issued today. It has in fact presented a fourth report which has not yet been printed or published. 20. Deputy Jones.—With regard to these various commissions are they all still in existence?—I assume the question relates to those Commissions shown in the total expenditure column. The Civil Service Arbitration Board still stands. The Metric System and Decimal Coinage Committee reported during the year and is disbanded. The Savings Committee is a quasi-permanent body and the Commission of Inquiry on Workmen’s Compensation is still sitting and is not thought likely to complete its work until 1961-2. The Vocational Teachers’ Arbitration Board is a quasi-permanent body; the Commission on Income Taxation is still sitting and as I said has presented four reports in all to date. The Committee on Industrial, Provident and Friendly Societies is sitting and is not expected to report for some time. The Committee on Accommodation Needs of Constituent Colleges of the National University of Ireland has completed its work and so have the Television Commission and the Tribunal of Inquiry into Cross-Channel Freight Rates. An Coimisiún um Athbheochan na Gaeilge has presented two interim reports which are with the Government for examination. It is expected that its final report will be submitted before the end of the current financial year. The Teachers’ Salaries Committee which had to consider the proper relativity of salaries of various classes of teachers has reported to the Minister for Education and its report is about to be published. VOTE 16—SUPERANNUATION AND RETIRED ALLOWANCES.Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.21. Chairman.—I notice that the Extra Receipts payable to Exchequer were substantially more than anticipated?—That was due to the difficulty of estimating exactly what the liability of bodies like Bord Ghaeltarra Éireann and An Foras Talúntais would be for civil servants lent to them pending recruitment by them of a permanent non-civil service staff. In the case of a civil servant it is assessed at 15 per cent. of the salary for the time he is on loan to the independent semi-State body. Deputy Moloney.—It is collected from them?—It is collected from the body and brought to credit as Extra Exchequer Receipts. Deputy Sheldon.—There must have been a considerable number; when it realised £14,820?—There was a big number involved in the transfer of the Gaeltacht Industries to the new Board. 22. Chairman.—I notice in the explanation on subheads A. and J. that sums of £9,000 and £2,000 were charged to the Vote for Increases in Pensions, is that the total amount of the increase granted?—No. There was a separate Vote amounting to £72,200 for the increase in pensions to take care of this. VOTE 17—SECRET SERVICE.Mr. T. K. Whitaker called.No question. VOTE 18—EXPENSES UNDER THE ELECTORAL ACT AND THE JURIES ACT.Mr. T. K. Whitaker called.No question. VOTE 19—SUPPLEMENTARY AGRICULTURAL GRANTS.Mr. T. K. Whitaker called.No question. VOTE 20—LAW CHARGES.Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.23. Deputy Moloney.—On subhead E.— Defence of Public Servants—what form does that expenditure take?—It is to cover cases where an official, such as a police officer, might do something in excess of his duties or functions, something which it was considered, should not involve him in personal liability. It is intended to cover a legitimate excess of functions and, where he has been found to have exceeded his duty by a court, to cover costs awarded against him. It is a discretion exercised in the officer’s favour if it is thought he has not done anything improper. 24. Chairman.—I notice that a Senior Assistant Solicitor received a gratuity of £250 for special services?—That had to do with the inordinately complex and lengthy proceedings against Mr. Singer. VOTE 21—MISCELLANEOUS EXPENSES.Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.25. Deputy Jones.—On subhead B.— The National Theatre Society, Limited (Grants-in-Aid)—that amount is the average?—Yes, that is the average. In 1958/59 it was £3,000; in 1959/60, £9,000, an increase of £6,000 in one year. Is there any particular reason why it should be increased by £6,000 in one year?—I think in recent years the fact that the Abbey has to operate in the Queen’s Theatre has involved it in much heavier expenses than when it was operating in the old premises which were destroyed by fire. The second portion deals with the fire in the Abbey?—Actually this is very closely related to the losses sustained in operations at the Queen’s Theatre. The losses have averaged more than £14,000 per annum for the last three years. 26. Deputy Moloney.—In regard to subhead E.—the Derrynane Trust, Limited (Grant-in-Aid)—the note says that the conditions under which the grant was payable were not fulfilled during the year. Would Mr. Whitaker enlighten us as to what happened that the conditions were not fulfilled?—As a condition for giving this £4 for £1 grant, we required to have a certificate that the work was completed before we would make the final payment of £310. The certificate has not been forthcoming and we think that all the work for which we promised to pay has not, in fact, yet been done. Chairman.—This is the restoration work?—Restoration work, yes. Deputy Moloney.—I take it that is merely brought forward then?—Yes, we are inclined, in fact, to say to the Trust that if the balance of the work is not completed this year and claimed for we will not repeat this provision. It has been dragging on quite a long time now. Deputy Moloney.—We pay £4 for each £1 the Trust pay?—Yes, subject to a maximum of £5,000 from us. Deputy Moloney.—An aggregate of £5,000? Chairman.—A maximum. Mr. Whitaker.—We have, in fact, issued £5,000 less this £310 which is held up. VOTE 67—INCREASES IN PENSIONS.Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.27. Chairman.—Does this sum represent the total cost of the increases in pensions?—Yes. This is the total cost. VOTE 69—REPAYMENTS TO CONTINGENCY FUND.Mr. T. K. Whitaker further examined.28. Deputy Sheldon.—I must say I got rather confused reading these figures. I could not get it related across where on the Vote for the President’s Establishment there was advanced £372 and there was repaid from it £1,622?—The £1,622 less the £372 gives £1,250 which, with the £3 for triplets and the £5 for centenarians gives the £1,258. I do not know whether that is any help to the Deputy. I had trouble myself working it out. I see. The £1,258 is arrived at in that way, that is, advances outstanding. It consists of the £1,622 which was repaid less the £372 issued, that is, £1,250 nett paid from the President’s Establishment plus the other two odds and ends, the £3 and £5?—Yes. VOTE 70—REMUNERATION.Mr. T. K. Whitaker called.No questions. VOTE 59—EXTERNAL AFFAIRS (EXCESS VOTE).Mr. C. C. Cremin called and examined.29. Chairman.—I suggest we might deal with the Excess Vote first. There is reference in paragraph 2 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General to expenditure amounting to £7,573 over and above the gross provision made by the Oireachtas. Paragraph 94 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General is as follows:— “Excess of Expenditure over Grant 94. The account shows an excess of expenditure of £7,573 over the gross estimate. There was a surplus of £636 under the appropriations in aid subhead. The net deficit is, therefore, £6,937. The excess was due mainly to increased expenditure abroad on travelling (subhead B.2) and postage, stationery, telegrams and telephones (subhead B.3.).” Have you anything further to add, Mr. O Cadhla: Mr. O Cadhla.—I have nothing further to add to the information contained in the paragraph. Deputy Sheldon.—Do I take it, that these events came to pass so late in the year that it was not possible to bring in a supplementary estimate? Mr. Cremin.—Yes. The position is that, as explained here, the source of the excess was specifically subheads B.2. and B.3. but we did not become aware of the position or the fact that there would be an excess on the whole Vote until after the financial year had elapsed. We were well aware earlier that the Vote was in a somewhat critical state in the sense that there was a risk that it would not be in balance but previous experience suggested that, although we might in fact run rather a substantial excess relatively on subhead B.2. as in previous years, we would have sufficient savings elsewhere to offset that excess. In this particular case we did know that the Vote was rather tight but we did not become aware of the fact that there would be an excess rather than perhaps a minimal surplus until the end of the financial year. There is a special reason for that—it is peculiar, perhaps, to the system in the Department of External Affairs where we have got a substantial number (I think 17) of sub-accounts abroad. Therefore, we cannot at any given moment say what the position is by reference solely to the expenditure we can see immediately, that is to say, headquarters expenditure, and to get the whole picture we have to depend on getting the accounts from the missions abroad. We do our best to ensure they are in early but, in fact, they are never in, for instance, even in the first 10 days of the following month. That would be unusual speed and in practice it takes very much longer. In this particular case that was so also, that is to say, we did not know until after the year had elapsed that the expenditure was in excess of the grant. 30. Deputy Sheldon.—I do not want to catch up Mr. Cremin with the words that fall from his mouth but he does refer to the fact that the Department is accustomed to subhead B. 2. running a bit high and that it is a pious hope that this will be met by savings on other subheads. I find it difficult to relate that to the Estimate for the current year where subhead B. 2. shows a decrease of £2,800. Is that not giving a hostage to fortune?— The position is that 1959/60 was an exceptional year as regards subhead B. 2., for two reasons. We unfortunately lost, as you remember, our Ambassador in Rome. He died unexpectedly as far as any reasonable forecast was concerned: we had known he was ill but there was no suggestion of any kind that he was so ill as to run the risk of dying. Secondly, we were unfortunate in respect of another head of mission who likewise got ill and had to return home. We had, thus, two quite unexpected changes in that year which inflated the expenditure under the subhead substantially. In fact, the estimate under this head was not small. We had estimated £22,000 but expenditure proved to be £5,400, approximately, in excess of even that relatively high estimate. In previous years we have run these excesses on that particular subhead but we were more fortunate as regards the remainder of the Vote. We had assumed, on precedent, that we might have the same outturn. For instance, in 1954-55, we had an excess on the subhead of £4,000 but a net surplus on the whole Vote of £10,000; in 1955-56 an excess of £8,000 but a surplus on the whole Vote of £10,000 odd; in 1956-57 an excess of £11,000 but a surplus on the whole Vote of £15,000; and in 1957-58 an excess of £3,500 but a surplus on the whole Vote of £15,700. It is easier to see it now than at the time, but I am afraid the Estimates were too tightly drawn. As regards any suggestion that in those circumstances we should reduce the subhead in the current Estimates, I would make two comments: (1) we were not aware unfortunately when these Estimates were drawn up, which was last December, that we would be in such heavy excess on subhead B.2. or that the Vote would be in deficit; and (2) subhead B.2. is related to factors some of which we can forecast with reasonable accuracy. For instance one big factor in the subhead is home leave especially from North America. We knew when we were estimating for 1959-60 that a number of officers were entitled to home leave in that year. In fact they took it and that was a substantial expenditure. The current Estimate was framed with that kind of factor in mind. We have not of course provided for what you would call major unexpected developments which, as I mentioned a moment ago, we would hope would not recur. Unfortunately, in 1959-60, in addition to high expenditure which was foreseen, there were also special factors which involved us in expenditure of several thousands of pounds because of consequential changes. It was not a question merely of replacing A by B; in these matters it becomes a rather wider circle. Chairman.—Which may not recur this year?—We do not expect the same expenditure in the current year on home leave nor again do we expect transfers of the same magnitude. We naturally hope that there will not be any exceptional transfers of the same kind due to illness or death. VOTE 59—EXTERNAL AFFAIRS.Mr. C. C. Cremin called.No question. VOTE 60—INTERNATIONAL CO-OPERATION.Mr. C. C. Cremin further examined.31. Deputy Sheldon.—On subhead B.3. —Incidental Expenses—there is a reference to incidental entertainment by officers of other Departments. What sort of control has the Department over entertainment given by officers of another Department. It is not the Department of Finance I am sure?—This subhead is designed to take incidental expenditure abroad connected with O.E.E.C. and covers such expenditure by all Departments. What actually happens is that if there is a meeting in connection with O.E.E.C. in Paris—it could be elsewhere but it is principally in Paris—which involves some kind of entertainment, that is regarded as a charge on subhead B.3. Any of half a dozen Departments, including External Affairs, might be concerned. The witness withdrew. The Committee adjourned. *denotes projects in respect of which expenditure is also borne on the relative votes. |
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