Committee Reports > List of Committees > Dáil > 1956 > Committee of Public Accounts > Report - Appropriation Accounts 1954 - 1955

MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA

(Minutes of Evidence)

Déardaoin, 26 Iúil, 1956.

Thursday, 26th July, 1956.

The Committee sat at 11 a.m.

DEPUTY CARTER in the chair.

Liam Ó Cadhla (An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste), Mr. P. S. Mac Guill and Mr. J. F. Maclnerney (An Roinn Airgeadais) called and examined.

VOTE 46—NATIONAL GALLERY.

Mr. T. McGreevy called and examined.

138. Chairman. — On subhead A. — Salaries and Wages—why was the full amount of the Supplementary Estimate not required, Mr. McGreevy?—What happened was that we had some postcards and, not being very experienced in the matter, I did not pay until the postcards were delivered. I paid outside of the financial year. So then the Supplementary Estimate was asked for in the Dáil. It was to cover a payment which should have been made before March 31st and which could only be made when there was an estimate for postcards.

139. Under subhead B.—Purchase and Repair of Pictures (Grant-in-Aid)— £3,320 was expended from the Grant-in-Aid. What was the incidence of expenditure as between purchase and repair, were there any notable purchases, for instance, during the year?—Purchases came to £2,795 10s. and the repairs came to £368 19s. 9d.

Had you any notable purchases during the year?—It was a lucky year and we got some very good pictures at very reasonable prices. I sent the photographs of one picture which we got for £50, to Mr. Berenson in Florence and his first reaction was that we had probably got a work by the young Raphael. In the meantime, an expert from the Fogg Museum, Harvard, without knowing anything about what Mr. Berenson said, came to the same conclusion. In addition, we got a Cranach Madonna for £600 and another picture of a type that was not represented in the gallery at all and which filled an important gap. It was by Jan Mandyn, a pupil of Hieronymus Bosch, who painted nightmarish and terrifying things. The Mandyn came from a private collection at Wiesbaden. We got it for £550, but, in view of the fact that prices were running into tens of thousands of pounds, we were very fortunate. There were several others but I think those are the most dramatically important.

140. Reference was made last year to the work of cataloguing; how is it progressing?—I have completed the Italian section and it has been in the hands of the Controller of the Stationery Office for some time. In the preface to that, I explained that the problem of cataloguing, all over the world, has become material for the most recondite scholarship, and there is no public gallery which has got a full catalogue. The English National Gallery has a catalogue published in 1912 and it is the only full one they have. I hope our Italian section will be out before many months. What I propose to do then is, is to go on with a list of the pictures and then with the Irish portraits. That is the section which needs our next attention.

141. On Subhead D.—Incidental Expenses—under Extra Receipts payable to Exchequer I notice that the sales of your reproductions exceeded expectations. What do the cards cost?—The plain cards are twopence and the coloured cards are fivepence.

142. Deputy Barry.—Are you satisfied with the reproductions?—They are rather a mixed bag. We went to different printers as the Department of Education was anxious that we should get as much of the work done in Ireland as we could, so there was an experimental quality about some of them. The percentage of satisfactory reproductions is pretty nearly as good as anywhere.

Chairman.—Are the cards sold only in the Gallery?—Yes. They are not sold for profit.

143. Deputy Sheldon.—Would you say if the amount received — £113 — has settled down to this figure or has it improved?—It is now going to between £5 and £6 a month. It goes up in the summer when there are more strangers in the Gallery. One hope is that ultimately we will have a special department for this purpose but we will have to ask the Departments of Finance and Education about that. As it is at present, the porter at the door has to reach behind him for the cards and people do not always see them. It is rather a hole-and-corner affair.

Deputy Barry.—Very much so.

144. Deputy Sheldon.—If the receipts are stable it might be considered if it might come in under the Appropriation in Aid. However, that is a matter for the Department of Finance.

145. Deputy Bartley.—Are reproductions copyright?—There is an equivocation there. In theory it is taken for granted that a copyright in reproduction does belong to the Gallery. On the other hand I was asked recently for a reproduction of an Irish portrait and I asked the applicant to withdraw the application because the artist in question might say, under the Berne Convention “The copyright is mine.” It comes to this, that in regard to the work of the old Masters, artists who are dead for 50 years, you might say the copyright is ours. On the other hand you cannot prevent people from reproducing such pictures. Certainly in regard to the Monna Lisa I should say that the Louvre has not always been asked for permission to reproduce it.

146. Deputy Barry.—I think it is desirable that they should be reproduced in order that we could get a good deal of our work known in other countries?—We stamp every photograph which we sell with an intimation that any reproduction of it should be accompanied by the words “Courtesy of the National Gallery of Ireland”.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 39—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION.

L. Ó Muirthe called and examined.

147. Chairman. — For convenience, I will take the subheads in groups. Are there any queries in regard to the group A.1.-A.4.?

148. Deputy Sheldon. — On A.2.— Travelling Expenses—I take it from the note that there was no change in the rates allowed for travelling during the year and that the increase was due to more travelling?—More travelling.

149. Chairman.—With regard to subheads B.1.—Salaries, etc.—and B.2.— Travelling and Incidental Expenses—and it also relates to subhead A.1.—Salaries, Wages and Allowances — are the reductions in staff referred to in the explanation permanent?—Yes.

150. Roughly, what is the saving?—To date, the saving over the years is like this. We have been carrying on for the past four to five years what we call an “O and M” survey of all branches of the Department. Through better organisation, and what I might call lopping off the dead timber, consultations with the staff and bringing them along with us, we have succeeded in reducing the annual expenditure on staff by something like £26,000. In other words we have reduced the numbers and I think, on the whole, increased the efficiency.

Deputy Bartley.—Over what period of time?—Four to five years.

151. Chairman.—Subhead C. relates to the preparation of Irish vocabularies. I take it there was no expenditure under this heading during the year?—No.

152. Deputy Bartley. — I take it that these vocabularies have a specialist reference of some kind? Is it correct that you would prepare a vocabulary for some particular avocation or activity? Is that what it means?—Yes; technical.

153. Chairman.—On subhead C., there are a great many bodies working along one particular line or another. For instance, there is the Royal Irish Academy, the Irish Manuscripts Commission, the National Library, the Folklore Commission, An Gúm and, I except, the Universities. Is there a co-ordinating body to direct this work or does the Department do anything to ensure that there is no overlapping?—All the different bodies deal with different fields. The Irish Manuscripts Commission deal with ancient Irish manuscripts. That requires scholarly knowledge of a particular kind. An Gúm is concerned with the publication of modern Irish books. Its purpose is to provide a library of books for people interested in the study of Irish and who want to advance their knowledge of it— novels, modern poetry, translations of standard works and textbooks for schools. However, they cannot invite authors to submit manuscripts for publication. They have to wait until the authors send in the manuscripts.

Deputy Brennan.—Is there a likelihood of any co-ordination under the new Department for the Gaeltacht of these various activities?—I am afraid I could not answer that question.

154. Deputy A. Barry. — Subhead D. refers to Expenses in connection with the Council of Education. I take it that there were fewer meetings of the Council?— Yes. In that particular year the Council presented its Report to the Minister. Naturally there were fewer meetings of the Council that year than during a normal year.

155. Chairman.—Under Appropriations in Aid, the second item refers to miscellaneous receipts. You estimated you would get £17 and you realised, in fact, £111. What is the reason for such a big inincrease? — There was a much bigger demand for educational credits during the year. Some of our people who live in America write back to the Department asking for particulars of the standard of education they reached and say they require certificates to that effect. There were more that year than normally.

VOTE 40—PRIMARY EDUCATION.

L. Ó Muirthe further examined.

156. Chairman.—Paragraph 56 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads as follows:—

“Subhead A.3.—Preparatory Colleges, etc.

56. Accounts have been furnished to me showing the receipts and expenditure for the school year 1954-55 in connection with the farms and gardens attached to the colleges. Four of the accounts disclose deficits and two show excesses of receipts over expenditure. Periodical inspections of the farms are carried out by officers of the Department of Agriculture and their reports are available to me.”

Mr. Ó Cadhla.—That is for information. In the case of one college a deficit of over £80 in the previous year was converted into a profit of over £200.

Mr. Ó Muirthe.—I might add, for the information of the Committee, that part of that deficit was due to the fact that the herd in one of the colleges did not stand up to the T.B. test and had to be got rid of. Then they had to buy in gradually again. In another college the land is not very good. It is what is described as sour land and a lot of fertiliser has to be got for it. Now the recommendation is that it should be drained.

157. Chairman.—Paragraph 57, which relates to the same subhead, reads as follows:—

“57. The average cost per student for maintenance and tuition for the year has been assessed at £148 16s. 0d. The average fees paid by the students was £23 10s. 1d.”

Mr. Ó Cadhla.—The figure of £148 16s. does not include anything in respect of overheads.

Mr. Ó Muirthe.—May I say that it does include—which is wrong, in my view— the cost of a new tractor. Only part of the cost of a tractor should be down for a particular year. Therefore, the real cost should not be £148 16s., as mentioned here, but £146 10s. 2d.

158. Deputy A. Barry. — What is the relationship between the average fee of £23 10s. 1d. for 1954-55 and the fee, say, as it was ten years ago?—The full fee is £50.

What is the relationship to the £148? —The student pays £50 but the cost of the student is £146 10s. 2d.

Has there been any increase in the fees charged over a number of years?—Yes. It was £40 at one time; now it is £55.

Deputy Mrs. O’Carroll. — Is that the ordinary fee?—Yes, but we do not always get it.

Chairman.—Does the average fee work out at £23 10s. 1d.?—Yes, in this year.

May we take it that you grant reductions?—Undoubtedly.

159. Deputy Brennan. — Is the difference between the fee charged and the normal fee recoupable?—No.

160. Deputy Bartley.—Is it a fact that you do not get any fee from the scholarship holders? Is that fact taken account of in this figure of £23?—There are no scholarship holders in a preparatory college. Students get into those colleges on their merits. If the parents can afford it, they pay the full fee. If they cannot afford it, they pay a reduced fee and some parents pay no fee.

If I used the word “scholarship,” in substance the point I am making has been verified by the Accounting Officer, that is, that there are a great many students who do not pay any fee. Whether you call it a scholarship or not, in effect, it has the same result. I take it that that fact accounts for the lowness of the figure of £23 10s. 1d. as compared with the full figure of £55? That is the question I wanted to put.

Deputy Brennan. — They would be worked out on the average. I think it is not correct to say that no fees are charged but in some cases allowances are made for clothing.

Mr. Ó Muirthe.—That is so.

161. Chairman. — I will take the subheads of the Vote itself in groups. With regard to subhead A.1. — Training Colleges—on what basis were these grants fixed?—The student pays a certain fee for his education in the Training College. If the student’s parents cannot afford the full fee, there is a reduction in the fee and the balance is paid by the Department. If the student’s parents cannot afford any portion of the fee, an advance of the full fee is made by the Department. All the advances are recovered when the students ultimately qualify and get posts in the national schools.

Deputy Brennan.—Or any other post in the public service?

Mr. Ó Muirthe. — Depending on the number of years he teaches in a national school. If he teaches for five years, he is in the clear.

Deputy Bartley.—And that applies to students from the country as a whole? —Yes.

There seems to be a misconception that it applies only to Gaeltacht entrants, is that not so?—No, it is of general application.

162. Chairman.—On C.3. — Van and Boat Services—in the explanatory note you say the excess is due partly to increased cost of transport of Dublin children from newly built-up areas to city schools. Was there a greater number transported or what was the cause of the increase? — Yes, a greater number was transported. Before this year we had only one transport service, that is, from the Ballyfermot area; now we are transporting children from Finglas as well until such time as schools are built in the area.

163. What arrangements have you with C.I.E.? Do you pay them?—We pay them on the number of children conveyed. Of course, the children pay themselves.

Deputy Mrs. O’Carroll.—You subsidise the actual fares over a certain amount?— Yes.

164. Deputy Brennan.—In the case of van services, what you pay is on the basis of the attendance? — That is for the normal transport motor service in the country.

Despite the fact that the contractor contracts for a particular figure, you make up the difference?—It depends. The regulation laid down says there must be a minimum number of children conveyed and we pay on that. We pay, in this case, the manager of the school; the manager pays a certain amount and we pay the difference, depending on what the contract is.

165. Deputy Bartley.—Is the minimum number 10?—Yes, 10 normally.

Deputy Brennan. — There are various numbers for various schools?—It depends on local conditions.

Deputy Bartley.—Is there a minimum below which you will not go?—There is, I think. The minimum would be about five.

It is well we should know that. People come along and make these requests and it is useful to be able to say: “You cannot get it”?—I would not like to guarantee that if they had five they would get transport. It is only in exceptional circumstances.

166. Deputy Brennan.—Is it correct to say that £10 per head is the average allowed? — I have not worked out the average for different parts of the country, for the varying distances to be travelled by the car used and the number of children.

Deputy Mrs. O’Carroll. — The average would not give you the true picture on that basis?—£10 is the maximum we pay for such a service.

167. Deputy Bartley. — Is there any figure worked out to indicate what the average cost per pupil is in respect of the provision of schools and teachers? I take it that figure would have a bearing on decisions in respect of this service? I do not want to make a big point of it but it would be useful to get the information? —I think that information is available in the Annual Report. I cannot refer to this particular year, but the average cost in the year 1952-53 was around £16 and £18 14s. 9d. based on average enrolment and average attendance respectively.

168. Deputy Sheldon. — On C.5.—Free Grants of School Requisites—the explanatory note says there was a decrease in the number of claims received. Is that incidental to this year, or is there a continuing decrease in the amount needed for these free grants?—No, that is peculiar. There were not as many claims made that year. It all depends on the number of new schools built or the number of schools reconstructed. In either case the manager looked for what we call a free stock grant. That grant up to the present time has been a very modest one indeed and I happen to be able to say that we have improved it recently.

169. Deputy Mrs. O’Carroll.—What do the requisites cover?—A map, globe and things of that kind. The manager has a selection. We give him a choice and he buys up to the limit of the grant. He can buy three times that if he likes, but we only give him a certain amount.

170. Deputy Brennan.—On C.7.—Bonus to Parents or Guardians of certain pupils in the Gaeltacht and Breac-Ghaeltacht— has this figure varied much over the years?—No.

Deputy Brennan.—I thought there was an unusual number of rejections last year, but that is not before us now.

Deputy A. Barry.—Actually the figure seems to be growing. There was £55,000 spent and the grant was £51,000.

171. Chairman. — On C.8. — Holiday Scholarships in Gaeltacht (Grant-in-Aid) —was there any special reason for the number of children sent to the Gaeltacht being less than was expected? — There were fewer committees functioning.

172. On C.9.—Grant towards the Cost of Free School Books for Necessitous Children—you hold a means test, I presume? Have you to rely entirely on the head teacher?—We rely actually on the manager.

Deputy Mrs. O’Carroll.—On the manager’s estimate of the number of necessitous children? Do you know how that scheme is worked? Is it confined to the children who have no parent or who have no parent working or is the number of children in the family taken into consideration? How is the word “necessitous” applied?—I think it would be fair to say the manager and the principal teacher, who know a great deal about the circumstances of the parents, really determine what children are entitled to be considered.

Deputy Brennan. — My experience is that the children know nothing about the scheme at all. It is not advertised. The teacher, if he finds the children are unable to buy books, supplies them with books.

Deputy A. Barry.—There is no stigma.

Deputy Mrs. O’Carroll.—There is in the city, I am afraid.

173. Chairman. — Details of certain bequests are given on pages 113 to 117.

Deputy Sheldon. — On these various bequests and funds, I notice the figures for interest on the securities are rounded up to the nearest pound. Take the second fund, the Income Account. Is there any possibility of these odd shillings accumulating over the years and giving a distorted balance?—Which one?

The best one from my point of view is that on the bottom of page 113. On the income account there is actually about 17/- not shown?—In connection with the actual interest on the capital fund?

If you take the balance to the nearest pound the figure is wrong. It should be £92 instead of £93. If this goes on for years and we never see the shillings and take them into account in the balance is the balance really a true one?—What is gained on the swings is lost on the roundabouts.

You have no roundabouts in this?— You might have an income of £120 6s. and we call that £120.

Deputy A. Barry. — 11/- would become the next pound?—I could not be sure of that.

Mr. Ó Cadhla. — 10/- and under is ignored, and anything above 10/——

Mr. Ó Muirthe.—Is carried over.

Deputy Sheldon.—Suppose for a number of years there was 9/- over; after 10 years that would be 90/-. What would happen to the odd shillings?—They are carried over into the next year. They are not lost sight of.

VOTE 41—SECONDARY EDUCATION.

L. Ó Muirthe further examined.

174. Chairman.—Paragraph 58 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads as follows:—

“Subhead E.—Grant towards Publication of Irish Text Books.

58. Provision is made under this subhead for the publication through the Stationery Office of books in Irish suitable for use in secondary schools, and payments are made to authors in accordance with a general scheme approved by the Department of Finance. As certain text books were urgently needed by schools conducting courses through the medium of Irish it was decided, with the concurrence of the Department of Finance, to enter into agreements with a publishing firm whereby, subject to the Minister’s general approval of the arrangements made for the publication, repayable grants towards the cost of production might be made. Grants towards the publication of books in Irish by independent publishers are made by Bord na Leabhar Gaeilge from moneys provided under subhead B.1. of the Vote for Science and Art (No. 43). It is a condition of the agreements referred to that the publishers shall authorise An Bord to pay to the Minister any grants made available in respect of the text books, any balance remaining due to be refunded by half-yearly payments of amounts equal to 20 per cent. of the selling price of all copies of the text books sold.

The charge to the subhead includes grants amounting to £3,238 paid to the publishers in respect of six text books. Repayments in the year amounting to £1,143 have been credited to Appropriations in Aid.”

175. Has the Comptroller and Auditor General any comment?

Mr. Ó Cadhla.—This is a new service. Special arrangements were considered necessary to provide Irish textbooks for subjects in the secondary school course.

Deputy Mrs. O’Carroll.—What print is used, Roman or Gaelic?—Whatever the authors like.

176. Chairman.—What is the present position in regard to all the grants issued? Have they all been repaid?— Not quite. We are getting back money by degrees. Of the money we advanced through Bord na Leabhar Gaeilge we got back 20 per cent. on every copy of the book sold. The money is flowing back nicely.

177. Deputy A. Barry.—What system of auditing of the sales have you got?— Is it a simple system of audit or do you accept the publisher’s word?—We have a lot of stringent regulations which read as follows:—

1.That the publisher shall indemnify the Department against the violation of any existing copyright.

2.That all the arrangements for the printing, binding and publishing of the textbook shall be carried out by the publisher.

3.That before the textbook is set up in type it shall be approved of by the Department as suitable for use in the Secondary Schools.

4.That before the question of making a grant in respect of the textbook is decided the publisher shall submit to the Department the contract made by him in respect of the total cost of printing the book. (The contract is then submitted by the Department to the Stationery Office for consideration as to whether the terms of the contract are reasonable, having regard to the rates normally paid to Printing Contractors). In addition the publisher must submit satisfactory evidence of the arrangement made by him for the payment of a fee to the author, or editor, of the book.

5.That if the foregoing conditions are complied with the Department may make a grant towards his costs to the publisher. (The grant is normally equivalent to the total cost of printing the book. The first part of the grant is usually paid when the book has been placed with the printer and the second part on publication.)

6.That the publisher shall authorise Bord na Leabhar Gaeilge to pay to the Department any grant made by the Bord to the publisher in respect of the book.

7.That the balance of the grant made by the Department to the publisher remaining due after the grant by Bord na Leabhar Gaeilge has been paid over to the Department shall be repaid by the publisher by way of half-yearly payments of an amount equal to 20 per cent. of the selling price of all copies of the book sold. If no grant has been made by Bord na Leabhar Gaeilge the entire amount of the grant made by the Department shall be repaid by the publisher in the same manner. The half-yearly instalments shall fall due on the 30th June and 31st December and shall be paid within three months of these dates.

8.That until such time as the Department shall have been repaid the entire amount of the grant the copyright in the book, together with a number of unsold copies of the book of which the aggregate net sale price shall be equivalent to the outstanding balance of the grant shall be the sole property of the Department.

9.That the publisher shall submit to the Department returns, certified by a firm of Auditors, of the sales of the book for each half-year ending 30th June and 31st December.

178. Deputy Mrs. O’Carroll.—Might I come back to the question of the Gaelic and Roman scripts? If the publisher has discretion to use whatever script he likes, the schools have no option in the matter. There is the question of the difference in cost between the two scripts?—Are you thinking of secondary schools or primary schools? We are talking about secondary schools.

I know there is a difference in cost between the two types of script. If the publishers have complete discretion, is it not possible that certain schools would not get the books they wanted and that, therefore, they might have to pay a higher cost than they meant to?—As far as the textbooks used in the national schools are concerned, they are all in the Gaelic script. With regard to books for senior standards, some lessons are given in the Roman script so that pupils may get practice in reading that script. Secondary schools use either Gaelic or Roman script.

As the publishers decide? — The publishers know what the authorities of the schools want.

I believe there is some move on foot to put all secondary school textbooks into the Roman script.

179. Chairman.—Were there many books published under the scheme?— About half a dozen. I have a list of them here. There was a first Latin course, a first history of Europe, a first course in French, Pro Lege Manilia, a history of Europe from 918 to 1273 and Caesar IV.

180. Deputy Bartley.—There was a dearth of the secondary school textbooks. They are now being supplied. I heard a number of these complaints over the past few years and while we should like to have this question of the rival scripts satisfactorily settled, this Committee has no function in it. The supply of books has been an absolute necessity.

181. Deputy Brennan.—In the case of new secondary schools being established, is there a minimum average attendance laid down in order to qualify the school for recognition?—There is. The average minimum is twelve.

182. Deputy Sheldon.—Number 3 in the list of the Appropriations in Aid gives the figure for the sale of Irish textbooks at £1,507, and the paragraph at the beginning of the Report refers to repayments during the year amounting to £1,143. How does the discrepancy arise? Is there some extra sale of textbooks involved in the figure given in the actual account?—The ordinary sale of textbooks would enter into that figure.

183. Chairman.—On Item No. 1 of Appropriations in Aid, does the figure mean that fees were increased or that more subjects were taken? — It means more students. The number of students in secondary schools is increasing by 1,000 a year.

184. Deputy Barry.—Why do you use this curious phrase “average rate of fees”?—There are different kinds of fees. There are students who can take examinations but who are not recognised students. They have to pay higher fees.

185. Deputy Sheldon.—There is reference in the account to registration accounts. In that reference there is no income account shown. Why is it treated differently from other accounts?—That is a kind of unusual account. The income of that account is allowed to accumulate and any outstanding balance is paid out to the teachers who retire in a specific year. The people who are paid pay in the money.

Is the account itself laid before the Dáil?—I think it is, in the same way as ordinary accounts are.

I do not see why an income and expenditure account should not be given in the ordinary way?—It is really a fund which increases according to the number of registered teachers who come in.

I can appreciate that but it is hardly a reason for not showing what happens? —Of course we could provide a note of explanation at the bottom of the Vote showing that so much money is paid to the Clerk who acts as secretary to the Council. That is really paid into the Department and then so much of the money is paid out to teachers who retire every year. On an average, about 20 teachers retire and if there is £300 in the fund each gets £15.

VOTE 42—TECHNICAL INSTRUCTION.

L. Ó Muirthe further examined.

186. Deputy Mrs. O’Carroll—On subhead B.—Annual Grants to Vocational Education Committees — could you give some explanation for the under-expenditure of £1,051?

Deputy Brennan.—Is this figure for the grant based on the produce of the rate assessed by the local authority?—This is money actually paid out to the committees for the purpose of running the schools.

It is over £1,000 less than estimated? —That is a small amount in relation to a figure of nearly £1,000,000.

I would think the figure should be on the other side?—It is very hard to estimate the amount required.

187. Deputy Bartley.—On Subhead D.1.—Grants under Section 109 of the Vocational Education Act, 1930—I wonder could we get some information as to the co-operation that exists between the Departments of Education and Industry and Commerce in the matter of providing tickets for qualified skippers of fishing boats. The Irish Nautical College is an institution about which we know very little and perhaps we could get some more information about it?—We are associated with the examinations conducted in the Nautical College.

Is it under the authority of the Department of Education or the Department of Industry and Commerce?—The Department of Industry and Commerce are responsible for the tickets; we pay for the teaching.

Are the Department of Industry and Commerce responsible for the instruction and examination?—The two Departments are jointly responsible; we help the Department of Industry and Commerce.

188. I wonder would you be able to give the average annual issue of tickets over a number of years?—I have not got that information.

I would be very interested to get that information.*

189. Chairman. Under Subhead D.2— Miscellaneous Technical Instruction and Vocational Education Services—are services provided outside the normal vocational school courses?—These are miscellaneous teaching courses in such things as building construction, smith work and farriery and so forth.

190. Under subhead H.—Payments under Section 51 (6) of the Vocational Education Act, 1930—are the contributions based on a definite proportion of the cost of the building?—Yes.

191. Deputy Mrs. O’Carroll.—What was the reason it did not proceed as rapidly as possible?

Deputy Barry.—The Board of Works.

Mr. Ó Muirthe.—I think buildings never proceed as rapidly as possible.

Deputy Barry.—Quite right.

VOTE 43—SCIENCE AND ART.

L. Ó Muirthe further examined.

192. Chairman.—Paragraph 59 of the the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads as follows:—

“Subhead B.10.—Grants to Colleges providing Courses in Irish for Persons other than Teachers.

59. In the course of audit it was observed that grants had been paid to an Irish College in respect of a number of persons described on the attendance rolls as teachers though the scheme for payment of such grants excluded teachers. It was also observed that grants were paid for students in respect of two courses whereas the scheme provided for payment in respect of one course only. I have asked for explanations.”

Mr. Ó Cadhla.—In regard to paragraph 59 we received replies to these inquiries. I am informed that proposals are being submitted to the Department of Finance to pay grants in respect of teachers attending these courses and that I will hear further. On the other matter I am informed that the amount involved, £26 will be recovered and that steps will be taken to ensure that colleges will not claim grants for two courses in respect of any one pupil in any year.

193. Chairman.—Paragraph 60 reads as follows:—

“Subhead B.16.—Grants to Irish Colleges in the Gaeltacht.

60. With the approval of the Department of Finance, a grant of £3,000 was paid in December 1954 to Comhaltas Uladh of the Gaelic League towards the cost of providing an Irish College at Teelin, Co. Donegal. A further grant of £1,000 was paid in March 1955 for which authority was not obtained and I have asked that covering sanction be sought.

A sum of £3,000 was paid to Comhaltas Cosanta Gaeltachta Chúil Aodha towards the cost of providing an Irish College at Coolea, Co. Cork and £500 was paid on account of a grant of £4,600 towards the cost of erecting a college at Ballyferriter, Co. Kerry.”

Mr. Ó Cadhla.—I understand that the Department of Finance has now sanctioned the grant of £1,000.

194. Chairman.—On subhead A.8.—Survey and Reproduction of Irish Historical Records in Foreign Collections (Grant-in-Aid)—who carries out the surveys, Mr. Murray?—Scholars, a number of specially qualified people who are really under the jurisdiction of the National Library.

Is it work that will continue for long? —It will continue until we have finished filing photostats of all documents on the Continent of historical interest to this nation.

195. On subhead A.9.—Fees and Expenses in connection with Inspection of Manuscripts and Editing of Publications —does this provision relate to work done in Ireland?—Yes.

196. On subhead B.1.—Publications in Irish—the position regarding publications in Irish seems to be improving?—Yes. An Gúm has been producing more books.

Do you think the market for sales is expanding?—I hope so.

Deputy Bartley.—There is no connection between this sum and the one we were discussing under the other Vote?—No, no connection.

197. Chairman. — On Subhead B.4.— University Scholarships —how many scholarships were not renewed?—I could not say offhand how many were not renewed. Scholarship holders may do a year and then drop off and then do another year and again drop off. They may drop out any time but we have to provide for their remaining on.

198. Deputy Bartley.—These are ordinary scholarships from secondary schools to the Universities?—They are special scholarships which have to be held in University College, Galway.

199. Chairman.—On subhead B.9.— Production of Films on behalf of Government Departments — has this activity ceased, or have any films been made?— There have been no productions for some years but some Government Department, such as Health or Agriculture, might ask for one at any time.

200. Deputy Barry.—How would you proceed to get it done? Would you call in the National Film Institute?—Yes. They have experience of that work.

201. Chairman.—Subhead D.—Appropriations in Aid—the details are on the back of the page with the further addition of Notes at the foot of the page. In the Notes there is reference to three pieces of Irish music being sent to Berlin? —It was a long time ago.

202. Deputy Barry.—Where is the income recorded for photostats and reproductions?—Under Number 4.

It does not seem to be the right title for microfilms. I understand that the sale of microfilms is growing. It is included in this, anyway?—Yes.

203. Mr. Ó Muirthe.—The pieces of music you referred to, Mr. Chairman, were lost somewhere in transit. They were by Fritz Brase and went to Germany for printing. That was in 1938 and we never heard of them again. At that time things were developing in Germany.

VOTE 44—REFORMATORY AND INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS.

L. Ó Muirthe further examined.

204. Deputy Mrs. O’Carroll.—On subhead E.—Parental Moneys—Collection Expenses—what does this parental money mean?—Parents who can afford it are supposed to contribute to the support of their children in reformatory schools. The amount of the contribution is assessed by a District Justice. We employ collectors to go around and collect these moneys and they are paid a percentage for their work. Their pay depends on the amount of the collection.

205. Is it not a fact that parents lose the family allowance when a child is sent to a reformatory?—When a child is not living at home I do not think the family allowance can be paid.

But is there any record of family allowances in respect of these children included in this account?—No.

VOTE 45—DUBLIN INSTITUTE FOR ADVANCED STUDIES.

L. Ó Muirthe further examined.

206. Chairman.—On subhead A.— Annual Grants under Section 25 (1) of the Institute for Advanced Studies Act, 1940—we discussed these last year. Have the accounts been published yet?

Mr. Ó Cadhla.—I am afraid I will have to answer that question. We hoped last year to be in a position to certify these accounts without further delay but as there is one point that still has to be settled this was not possible.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 56—DEFENCE.

Lieutenant-General P. MacMahon called and examined.

207. Chairman.—Paragraph 96 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads as follows:—

“96. Temporary statutory provisions in relation to the defence of the State were made, and continued from year to year, in the Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Acts, 1923 to 1954. This legislation was repealed by the Defence Act, 1954 (No. 18 of 1954), which became law on 13 May 1954. The Act made permanent provision in relation to the defence of the State and the defence forces and came into operation on 1 January 1955 (S.I. No. 233 of 1954).”

Mr. Ó Cadhla.—That paragraph merely records the introduction of the permanent Act.

Chairman.—Paragraph 97 reads as follows:—

“97. The account shows that, including a surplus of Appropriations in Aid of £9,674, the total surplus to be surrendered is £1,702,683 or 20.6 per cent. of the net estimate, due mainly to a saving of £1,282,066 on the provision of £1,800,000 for defensive equipment (subhead P.). As indicated in the explanatory note, the intention to limit expenditure under this head to a sum of £1,000,000 was announced to Dáil Eireann by the Minister for Finance in his Budget statement on 21 April 1954. The saving of £482,066 is stated to be attributable to purchases being deferred (£150,000) and to stores ordered but not delivered (£332,000).”

Mr. Ó Cadhla.—That is informative.

Deputy Bartley.—On that paragraph, I would refer the Committee to the last sentence: “The saving of £482,066 is stated to be attributable to purchases being deferred (£150,000) and to stores ordered but not delivered (£332,000).” Have the purchases which were deferred been made since then?—Some of the material has been purchased.

I have a similar query as to the sum of £332,000. Have the stores been delivered? —Yes.

208. Chairman. — I presume you have a planned programme of purchasing from year to year?—Yes.

Do you work to a definite objective?— We do, but occasionally policy intervenes. With regard to the sum of £332,000, the stores for which that provision was made have been delivered. They were not available in that particular year and payment had to be deferred.

209. I see you spent £1,700,000 in 1952-53, and £2,000,000 in 1953-54 on equipment. Is it all in the service or have you some on reserve? Do you hold reserves?—Most of the equipment is on reserve except during training periods. It is brought out for training periods. Otherwise it is on reserve. That is all defensive equipment.

210. I hope none of it is obsolete by this time?—It would serve the purpose for which it was bought but whether or not it would be regarded by other countries as obsolete is another matter.

211. Is the Army reasonably equipped now from the modern point of view?— Yes, but we have not any atomic or hydrogen bombs.

212. Chairman.—Paragraph 98 reads as follows:—

“Subhead K.—Provisions and Allowances in lieu.

98. Statements have been furnished to me showing the cost of production of bread at the Curragh bakery, and of meat at the Dublin and Curragh abattoirs. The unit costs are as follows:—

The average price of cattle purchased for the Dublin and Curragh areas was £73 4s. 1d. and £72 7s. 4d., per head, respectively, as compared with £71 10s. 7d. and £72 0s. 9d in the previous year, while the average production of beef per head was 688 lbs. and 672 lbs., respectively, as compared with 693 lbs. and 699 lbs.”

Mr. Ó Cadhla.—That paragraph is for information.

Deputy Mrs. O’Carroll.—With regard to the cost of meat, it seems to me to be unreasonably high for killing your own meat. You have no distribution costs, as such. Is there any explanation for such a high price as 2/3 a lb. Lieut.-General MacMahon?—It includes the actual cost of the animals. We buy the very best animals.

I know that, but it seems a lot in relation to the fact that you sell the offals, hides, hooves, and blood for fertiliser. You have no distribution costs as compared with a butcher. The price seems unreasonably high. Is there any explanation?—I can assure you that there is no waste.

I should like to know how the figure is arrived at in relation to the price of the cattle and the sale of the offals?— Compared with the contract prices down the country, it is not unreasonable.

Possibly it is not, but these are cattle you buy and kill yourselves. In that figure, do you include the amount of meat bought by officers and N.C.O.s which they are allowed to buy and take out of the barracks? Is the price at which they buy included in that figure?—Yes.

May we take it then that they buy at an average of 2/3 a lb. and take it home?

Deputy Brennan.—Do we not buy some stores for grazing?—No; we do not keep cattle at all. The lands are let.

Deputy Mrs. O’Carroll.—Would it be possible to get more information about my point?

Chairman.—What is the point?

Deputy Mrs. O’Carroll.—27.1 pence per lb. and 28.8 pence per lb. are given as the cost of meat killed in the Department of Defence abattoirs. I think it is an unreasonably high price. Would it be possible to get some actual break-down of the figures?

Deputy Sheldon.—The Committee went into that point a couple of years back and there was an explanation. It is a matter of policy to keep these abattoirs. They know they could get it cheaper on contract.

Deputy Mrs. O’Carroll.—The witness says that the contract is dearer.

Lieut.-General MacMahon.—They vary. What Deputy Sheldon says is correct. On grounds of policy, we keep the abattoir at the Curragh and we keep the men in Dublin who can kill and cut up meat. It is necessary to do so because they have to do it very often on manoeuvres and if anything arose we should want to be independent of outside sources. For that reason, they would be there. However, we are quite satisfied that, considering the type of cattle we are buying, the prices are reasonable and compare favourably with some of the contracts outside. As a matter of fact, they vary outside. In some parts of the country we are charged more than the price at which we could produce the meat and in others we are charged less.

213. Deputy Mrs. O’Carroll.—You could not tell me what percentage of the total amount of meat is taken out of the quarters for consumption in the homes of the officers and N.C.O.s?—I could not now but I could supply that information.

Chairman.—Is Deputy Mrs. O’Carroll referring to the people who are drawing ration allowances?

Deputy Mrs. O’Carroll.—I am not.

Lieut.-General MacMahon. — Deputy Mrs. O’Carroll is referring to the meat consumed by the wives and children of serving personnel.

Deputy Mrs. O’Carroll. — Some are allowed to buy meat in the barracks to take home. The Accounting Officer says all the meat is bulked and that that is the average price per lb. of all the cattle bought and killed for normal consumption.

Lieut.-General MacMahon.—I think I can let the Deputy have the information she requires.*

214. Chairman.—On paragraph 98, are rations issued only for the net daily strength? — Yes, except at week-ends when you have to draw rations for the week-end.

215. Chairman. — Paragraph 99 reads as follows:—

“Subhead P.1.—Civil Defence.

99. State-owned air-raid precautions equipment and medical stores are located at various centres and hospitals throughout the country and arrangements were made during the year for the inspection and verification of these stocks. The arrangements provided for the constitution, where necessary, of the inspecting officers as Boards of Survey to arrange and supervise the destruction of stores condemned by them as being of no further use or value. I have asked for information regarding the results of the inspections.”

Mr. Ó Cadhla.—I have been informed that there are 37 centres where A.R.P. general equipment is located and that 10 have been inspected and that, of 136 centres where fire-fighting equipment is located, 35 have been inspected. At these inspections, all the stores were apparently found to be serviceable. In regard to reserve medical supplies, there are 99 hospitals where these supplies are located and 24 have been inspected. As a result of these inspections out of stores valued at £8,000, items to the value of £1,400 were condemned. The condemnation is stated to be due to drugs becoming unfit for use because of the expiration of the date of effectiveness and the deterioration of certain items of surgical equipment made wholly or partly of rubber owing to prolonged storage. I have no further information.

Chairman.—On paragraph 99, when is it hoped to complete these inspections?— It will probably take most of the year. We have a chemist from the Department of Health, a chemist of our own, and then also my officials. However, it takes a lot of time. They have to go to these hospitals and work in with the hospitals. Actually, the hospitals have charge of them. Sometimes, not through any fault of the hospital, they are not facilitated. It takes time but we hope that, by this time 12 months, we shall be able to finish with it.

I note that in an inspection of about a quarter of the hospitals concerned, stores valued at £1,400 out of a total of £8,000 have been condemned. Had you any arrangements with the hospitals for the turnover of the perishable goods?— Yes, we had an arrangement with the hospitals but the hospitals themselves had stocks in for the emergency and they are using up their own emergency stocks first. However, they have used some of our stocks.

216. May we take it that they could not have used them in time to have them replaced?—They could not.

Are records kept at the hospitals showing the dates of effectiveness of the drugs?—They only know the date of purchase.

Could you say if manufacturers would replace such drugs if they are not used within their effective period?—No; manufacturers will not do so.

Deputy Mrs. O’Carroll.—But manufacturers put the date up to which the drug is effective on the label. Is that not correct?—Yes.

217. Is a record not kept in respect of stores held in hospitals for the Department? Certain drugs are effective up to a certain month of a particular year. Can a check not be taken as to the dates of expiry of the effectiveness of drugs and also to see what reserves there are? In that way losses might be avoided and perhaps the commodities could be diverted somewhere else. The loss is rather a large sum.

218. Deputy Brennan.—Could there not be a report system whereby these drugs would be put into civil use on a rotation system?

Deputy Bartley.—The witness has said that the hospitals would use their own stores first.

Lieut.-General MacMahon. — We may dispose of these in the near future, but I cannot promise. We were due to dispose of those when the Korean war broke out and we had Government sanction to do so. Then the Government sanction was cancelled. If the international situation is all right, we may be able to dispose of all the material.

219. Deputy Mrs. O’Carroll.—Could you not dispose of the ineffective drugs?— Those would have to be destroyed.

220. Would it not be possible to keep a check on the date of expiry of the effectiveness of a drug? Perhaps it might be possible to try to unload them before the date expired?

Deputy Sheldon.—That might cost more than the value of the drugs.

Deputy Mrs. O’Carroll. — Perhaps a check could be taken from the beginning, if you have a certain amount of drugs due to become useless by the end of a certain period.

221. Lieut.-Gen. MacMahon.—Only the date of purchase is recorded. There is no record kept of the amount of drugs brought which will become ineffective on a certain date.

Deputy Sheldon.—They will become ineffective in six months.

Deputy Mrs. O’Carroll.—In four months’ time you will look and see what is left.

222. Deputy Sheldon.—What would you do with them?

Deputy Mrs. O’Carroll.—You might be able to dispose of them.

Chairman.—Is there any chance of that happening? Could you dispose of them to other hospitals?—No, and the makers will not take them back. When we find out what exactly the position is we shall put the matter to the Government again to know can we dispose of the goods that are usable.

223. Deputy Brennan. — I would think there should be some system devised whereby medical stores and other requisites for civil defence purposes should be replaced time after time instead of allowing them to become obsolete or unusable. It is an old problem that has never been properly solved.

Deputy Bartley.—What is the point in that?

Deputy Brennan.—You always want to have stores in case of emergency for civil defence. That is the purpose of these being accumulated. It is a pity to store them and allow them to become obsolete. Could they not be replenished by putting them into use in the ordinary course? There are hundreds of hospitals using these things every day. Why not have a replacement system so that they would never become antiquated?

Deputy Bartley.—It seems to me to be a thing that is very difficult to resolve. As the Accounting Officer says, the fundamental factor is the tenseness or otherwise of the international situation. I take it if you smell a hot situation arising, there is a rush to buy essential stores that may be difficult to acquire when the crisis is actually on you. You buy in things that of course deteriorate, but if you replace them before they have actually finally deteriorated how much further on are you than if you wait until the deterioration date has come?

Deputy Brennan. — The same thing applies to civil defence equipment such as rubber hoses.

Deputy Bartley.—They are something we must put up with? — It is well to realise they were purchased during the emergency. We will dispose of them in the near future if the present situation continues.

224. Chairman.—Paragraph 100 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads as follows:—

“Subhead Z.—Appropriations in Aid.

100. Representations having been made by the Department of Agriculture regarding the difficulty of saving the 1954 harvest owing to bad weather conditions, assistance was rendered by Army personnel. Charges for the services of the troops were made at the rates payable locally to agricultural labourers, except in areas certified by the local Agricultural Instructor to be flooded, where the services were provided free. Sums amounting to £813 were received and are credited to this subhead.”

I suppose you have recovered most of your expenses? — With the exception of £10 we have recovered all of them.

225. Paragraph 101 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads as follows:—

“101. The Appropriations in Aid also include £2,522 received from the Department of Agriculture in recoupment of the cost of services rendered by the Army in connection with the alleviation of distress caused by abnormal flooding of the River Shannon in December, 1954 (see paragraph 42).”

226. Paragraph 102 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads as follows:—

“Stores.

102. 500 motor-cycles were purchased in 1945 at a cost of £34,650 and the majority of them were put into service in the period to 1948, a balance of 125 machines being retained as a reserve. It was decided in 1953 to dispose of this reserve, the reasons given being that, (a) the model of machine was no longer in production and therefore spare parts could not readily be procured and (b) owing to the lapse of time since the machines were purchased some of the accessories (tyres, tubes and batteries) had shown signs of deterioration. Invitations to tender for the purchase of the motor-cycles were invited by Press advertisements and an offer of £6,938 was accepted. The prospective purchaser failed to carry out the contract and, following a further invitation to tender the highest offers received, amounting to £4,632, were accepted. I am informed that the question of the recovery of the consequential loss from the defaulting contractor is under consideration.”

Mr. Ó Cadhla.—I have no further information on this matter. I do not know what steps are being taken to recover the losses from the defaulting contractor.

Lieut.-General MacMahon.—The matter is with our law advisers at the moment.

227. Chairman. — I note that the machines cost £70 each and that they were sold for roughly £37 each. What make were they?—B.S.A. motor bicycles.

228. Would it not have been better, say, to keep the machines for spare parts? —We kept sufficient for our requirements and the others have become obsolescent. They are not being made now—we have sufficient for our needs at the moment and we have sufficient spare parts.

229. Would the replacement of all motor cycles not have proved more economical than storing 125 of them? — This is an emergency arrangement again. Under certain circumstances we would have required them all. As it was, we did not require them all, and it was more economical to keep them in an unassembled condition in their crates.

230. What is the condition of the 375 you retained in the service?—They are being used by despatch riders.

231. How do you manage to keep them serviced?—We get sufficient spares.

232. What is the present position regarding the recovery of the loss?—The matter is with the law advisers at the moment, the Chief State Solicitor and the Attorney General.

233. Paragraph 103 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads as follows:—

“103. In the course of local audit at a clothing depôt it was noted that there was little demand for tunics of certain sizes of which 16,117 were held in store. I have communicated with the Accounting Officer regarding the accumulation of these stocks.”

Mr. Ó Cadhla.—I have been informed that the stocks of Tunics No. 31 are a residue from the period 1940 to 1944, when the average strength of the Forces on permanent service, together with the Construction Corps, was around 42,000. The sizes mentioned are suitable only for personnel of small stature. No appreciable purchases of these sizes have been made since 1944. As a result of instructions issued by the Q.M.G. it is anticipated that the stocks of these sizes will be reduced during the present year. The full effect of the instructions cannot be estimated for some months.

Deputy Mrs. O’Carroll. — How long have these been carried over?—They were carried over since the emergency when we had the Construction Corps going but eventually we will use up these materials.

234. Chairman.—Apart from the size I presume the uniforms are of standard quality?—They are not as good quality as the present. The tunic is only half lined, but nevertheless they are being issued to men they will fit and they will continue to be issued.

235. Paragraph 104 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads as follows:—

“Statement of Losses.

104. Losses written off during the year are detailed in a statement appended to the account. The total is made up of:—

The corresponding figures of losses in the previous year were £186 and £29,899.

The deficiency of £5,615 noted at item 5 of the Statement of Losses includes £4,923, representing the assessed value of clothing and equipment unrecovered from members of An Fórsa Cosanta Aitiúil who became non-effective in the year 1952 or were discharged in the year 1953.”

Is there any improvement in regard to the clothing losses of the F.C.A.?—There is a very considerable improvement. These losses of course are on clothing issued to the F.C.A. and the losses are being reduced every year.

236. What was the nature of the equipment not recovered in the last paragraph?—Web equipment mostly.

237. On subhead A. of the Vote—Pay of Officers, Cadets, N.C.O.s and Men— can you give any indication of the actual average strength?—The average strength would be 8,567.

238. On subhead A.1.—Military Educational Courses abroad — there is a relatively large saving on this subhead. Where are most of the courses conducted now?— In England. We can only send officers on courses when courses are made available.

239. On subhead A.2. — Expenses of Equitation Teams at Horse Shows — was there any particular reason for non-attendance at the American shows?— Riders were not considered good enough at that time. Our best riders have resigned from the Army.

240. On subhead A.3. — Bounties, Rewards and Gratuities — what is the average amount of the service bounty?— £10 re-enlistment bounty.

241. On subhead B. — Marriage Allowance—the married strength appears to be maintained in full. Is the incidence of marriage among the troops relatively high?—Compared to the population generally, yes.

The married men are inclined to stay on in the service?—That is so.

242. On subhead E.—Pay of Officers of Medical Corps, etc.—why is the strength of the Medical Corps so high when the Army as a whole is under strength?— You have to keep your hospitals in being and to keep them staffed and you have to have a medical officer with each battalion even if the battalion is only at half strength.

243. On subhead F. — Medicines and Instruments—what was the cost of the X-ray equipment purchased? Was it a replacement or a new one?—A new one costing about £3,000.

244. Deputy Brennan.—On subhead L. —Petrol and Oils—there is a reduction in the transport of troops and stores, yet there is an increase in petrol consumption. Those two things do not seem to be reconciled.

Chairman.—Was it a greater use of petrol? — There is an increase due to transport of F.C.A. units and to the quantity used by engineers in connection with building contracts, etc.

245. Chairman.—On subhead M.— Clothing and Equipment — it is stated that there was a saving of £128,000 due to non-delivery of uniform cloth, etc. Have you difficulty in getting this cloth?—We have had very considerable difficulty, but we are getting over it now.

Deputy Mrs. O’Carroll.—Could you give us a reason for that difficulty? Are materials scarce?—The Post Office supply our uniforms and they tell us they have trouble in getting the cloth manufacturers to produce the cloth. Even when it is produced, there is often difficulty in getting it made up by the tailors. If they are busy otherwise, they will let us wait.

246. Chairman.—You refer to reserve stocks. Have you laid down quantities?— Quantities were laid down many years ago. We have some reasonable stocks.

247. Deputy Brennan.—I take it all the materials are made at home?—Yes.

248. Chairman.—On subhead P.2.— Naval Service — how many vessels have you in this service?—We have the three corvettes, together with some other vessels in Cork harbour. The underpayment in this item is due to the fact that we were negotiating with the British Admiralty to purchase three harbour defence vessels. These have not yet been purchased.

249. I presume the vessels you have are examined regularly with a view to seaworthiness and all that?—They are. As a matter of fact one of them is having a complete overhaul at the moment. A second one badly requires a complete overhaul.

250. Does this service provide a patrol in certain areas in relation to fishing?— That is part of their duty.

251. Under subhead U.—Compensation —it was found necessary to supplement your original provisions. Is this due to an increase in the number of accidents in which Army vehicles were involved?—It was due to certain payments that had not become due until this financial year and which had to be settled.

252. On subhead X. — Incidental Expenses—you have had a saving in relation to advertisements. Did you have a recruiting campaign this year?—Yes, a limited one, not as large as in other years.

253. Deputy Mrs. O’Carroll.—You also had a saving on books and manuals under this subhead. Was it because they were not in stock and could not be purchased?

Deputy Brennan. — Fewer recruits, I should say?—That is so.

254. Chairman. — On subhead Y.4.— Bureau of Military History—you have an excess expenditure due to the appointment of additional investigation officers? —This deals with the Bureau of Military History and the field had to be widened considerably and some counties concentrated on. This item covers the Twenty-Six Counties. The Government decided that this Bureau must come to an end on the 31st March next, and as much work as possible must be done within that time. Counties such as Cork and Tipperary, which had not been fully covered, are being done and for this purpose seven additional investigation officers were appointed.

255. On subhead B.B.—Medals, etc.— is the work of the awarding of medals nearly finished?—It depends on what kind of medals you are referring to. We have a 1916 medal, a medal for the period from 1916 to 1921, a medal for members of one of the organisations during the three months prior to the Truce, medals for emergency service.

256. It was the pre-Truce medal I had in mind?—People are still applying. Of course, people who apply now are late to get special allowances because the date has been fixed. Nevertheless, we get a number of applications still.

257. Deputy Sheldon.—On item 19 of Appropriations in Aid, you realised £791 instead of the £100 you estimated for. Was there any particular reason for this large increase?—It is very difficult to forecast the figure accurately.

258. Who makes this payment?— Sometimes the Army Canteen Board ask us to do up the house of a manager, perhaps, or to renovate the canteen itself. We do the work and later recover the cost from the Canteen Board.

259. Deputy Mrs. O’Carroll. — Under No. 9 of the Appropriations in Aid which deals with the sale of hides and offals, have you any idea of the total amount spent on cattle for the same period?—I can give the Deputy the number of cattle, which is 1,031, made up of 402 at the Curragh and 629 slaughtered in the Dublin abattoir.

You have not got the cost?—We have not got that here, but I can supply the information to the Chairman later.*

Deputy Brennan.—Was this £5,000 odd taken into consideration in the estimated price of the meat?—Definitely.

VOTE 57—ARMY PENSIONS.

Lieutenant-General P. MacMahon further examined.

260. Deputy Brennan.—On subhead I., Military Service Pensions are £15,222 below the estimate.

Chairman.—Is the decrease in expenditure due to mortality?—Partly.

261. Deputy Brennan.—The special allowance does not come under that heading?—No. This deals with the 1924 and the 1934 Acts only. A number of people died and we probably over-estimated the numbers of new people coming on.

262. Chairman. — On subhead K.— Expenses of Applicants and of Witnesses attending for Examination, etc. — you told us last year the whole position regarding these awards was being investigated. Could you give us an idea of the results of the investigation so far?—I am afraid it is still in the air. The Department of Finance are not satisfied that the cost of the machinery necessary to carry out this work would be justified in view of the number of frauds discovered. The question of bringing the new machinery to a state of finality has not been solved yet. I am not so worried about the present as about the future. There is such a thing as a means test in this problem and it makes things much more difficult. The Minister for Finance says that this machinery will be very costly and he is not satisfied it would be justified.

263. Deputy Brennan. — I notice that there is £1,332 less than estimated under subhead O. One would think it would be quite easy to estimate that accurately. It deals with special allowances?—It is very difficult to estimate under that heading because you do not know who is going to apply. It is simply a guess at best and not a real estimate at all. All we can do is go on previous experience.

264. Deputy Sheldon. — Before we adjourn, I should like to offer my congratulations to Lieut.-General MacMahon. I understand this is his thirtieth appearance before the Committee.

Chairman.—It must be a record. I feel sure every member of the Committee will join with Deputy Sheldon and myself in congratulating the General.

Lieut.-General MacMahon.—Many thanks. It shows how old I am getting.

The witness withdrew.

The Committee adjourned.

* See Appendix X.

* See Appendix XI.

* See Appendix XI.