Committee Reports > List of Committees > Dáil > 1955 > Committee of Public Accounts > Report - Appropriation Accounts 1953 - 1954

MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA

(Minutes of Evidence)

Déardaoin, 13 Deireadh Fómhair, 1955.

Thursday, 13th October, 1955.

The Committee sat at 2 p.m.

DEPUTY CARTER in the chair.

Liam Ó Cadhla (An tArd Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste), Mr. C. J. Byrnes and Mr. T. J. Malone (An Roinn Airgeadais) called and examined.

VOTE 37—CHARITABLE DONATIONS AND BEQUESTS.

Mr. J. S. Martin called and examined.

107. Chairman. — In connection with subhead B—Law Costs—what law costs are borne by the Vote?—Only such costs as cannot be recovered from the charitable funds concerned. It occasionally happens that the Commissioners may proceed to recover out of some charitable fund and they may not succeed. The amount might be such as could not be defrayed out of the fund and the ordinary rule is that such law costs are payable by this particular expenditure.

108. Deputy Sheldon.—On that point, of course, the funds that accrue under subhead D—Appropriations-in-Aid—could not be used for that purpose?—No. As Deputy Sheldon has said, that is a fund exclusive to subhead D; it is actually an Appropriation-in-Aid but we have never used it—I do not think we could use it— for the recovery of law costs.

That is just the point I wanted to make. This sum under subhead D represents the Embezzled Charity Recovery Fund but when it is used as an Appropriation-in-Aid you might say it is used to defray the law costs?—Not in so much as it is a sum paid for the maintenance and upkeep of the office.

109. I do not know what the terms of the Trust were, but is it a fact that where there is no proper charge for suing for and recovering charities, it would be quite proper that the interest should go to the Department?—The origin of the Fund goes back to 1816 when it was transferred to the Commissioners by the Protestant Archbishops of Armagh and Dublin to be held by them as a Fund to recover embezzled charities. There was no provision for such a purpose at that time, but after 60 or 70 years it was applied by the Treasury as an Appropriation-in-Aid of the office and it has been paid down through the years for that purpose. So it is a very, very old Fund and we cannot say with any degree of certainty what was its origin.

Deputy Bartley. — But there are no accretions to it now—it was a fund taken over? It was a fund taken over and there are no additions; it is a perpetual fund and the interest applies year after year.

110. Deputy Sheldon.—Have you ever had to sue anyone for withholding a charity?—Not in my recollection.

111. Chairman. — On subhead C — Travelling and Incidental Expenses— how do the expenses arise on that subhead?—It is principally expenditure on telephones, telegrams and what we might call office incidentals. The amount of travelling is negligible.

112. Deputy Bartley.—On subhead D, Appropriations-in-Aid, how do these arise?—That is the case I was talking about, Deputy.

Deputy Sheldon.—But you are still getting funds under your control?—We are still getting funds. Last year our total amounted to £1,625,000 odd.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 10—EMPLOYMENT AND EMERGENCY SCHEMES.

Risteárd Ó hÉigeartuigh called and examined.

113. Chairman.—Paragraph 15 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General states:—

“Provision was made under subhead F. (Urban Employment Schemes) and subhead G. (Rural Employment Schemes) for grants towards expenditure by local authorities on road and amenity schemes, etc., to provide employment. The grants, amounting in all to £194,611, were paid in instalments during the progress of the various works, by the Department of Local Government acting on behalf of the Special Employment Schemes Office. The accounts of the expenditure on the schemes are examined by Local Government auditors whose certificates are available to me.”

Anything further, Mr. Ó Cadhla?

Mr. Ó Cadhla.—I have nothing to add to that.

114. Deputy Bartley.—About rural employment schemes, can we have them distinguished from minor employment schemes, or are they schemes on roads administered by county councils?—Rural employment schemes are works on county roads administered through the Department of Local Government. We give 75 per cent. of the cost and the county councils contribute the other 25 per cent. The works are improvements of county roads, not ordinary maintenance, and are only made available in areas where there are relatively large numbers of unemployment assistance recipients. Is that what the Deputy had in mind?

Yes. These used to be referred to as roads rural schemes?—Yes, they were formerly called roads rural schemes.

115. Mr. Ó Cadhla.—I might say that the figure of £194,000 is the expenditure from the Vote. In addition, £169,000 was issued from the National Development Fund.

Mr. Ó hÉigeartuigh.—There was no National Development Fund in the case of the rural employment scheme or the roads rural scheme, as the Deputy has referred to it. The National Development Fund was confined to the urban schemes, that is subhead F. You will see that afterwards noted on page 28.

Deputy Sheldon.—But, if I may say so, page 27 of the Vote mentions in J. that £36,662 was spent on this service from advances received from the National Development Fund?—That is J.; we are talking about G.

Deputy Sheldon.—I beg your pardon, I am sorry.

116. Chairman.—Paragraph 16 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General states:—

“The expenditure charged to subhead H. (Minor Employment Schemes) and subhead I. (Development Works in Bogs used by Landholders and other Private Producers), amounting to £220,000, relates to schemes administered by the Special Employment Schemes Office. In certain counties these schemes were carried out by county engineers who account to the Special Employment Schemes Office for the expenditure incurred.”

117. Deputy Bartley.—I understood there are no agents now other than the Office itself. I thought all administration of these schemes was turned over completely to the Special Employment Schemes Office. Do I take it from this paragraph that there are counties or other administrative areas in which the administrative arrangements still exist? —Yes, there is quite a number of counties where we have not yet “taken over” for the purpose of carrying out these schemes ourselves. In fact schemes are carried out by inspectors employed directly by our offices in eleven counties only. The counties where we operate and do the schemes directly under the control of our inspectors are: Galway, Roscommon, Kerry, Cork, Clare, Mayo, Waterford, Wexford, Wicklow, Tipperary and Dublin. In the other fifteen counties the works are still done by the county engineers acting as our agent-inspectors, not by the county engineer in his capacity as an officer of the council, but employed directly by us on a commission basis. I estimate that about three-fifths of the total expenditure on minor employment schemes, bog development schemes and rural improvement schemes is done under the control of our engineers. In the other two-fifths, the other counties I have not mentioned—these schemes are done under the supervision of the county engineer in his personal capacity, acting as agent inspector of our office.

118. How are these engineers remunerated out of the Vote? I assume that it is on a commission basis?—Yes, on a commission basis.

119. What would the percentage or rate of commission usually be?—The commission given is 6 per cent. on the first £3,000 of expenditure, 5 per cent. on the next £3,000 expenditure and 41/6 per cent. on the remainder. In other words, we take minor employment schemes, bog development schemes and rural improvement schemes together and of the total expenditure on those three schemes, if he got only £3,000 worth of expenditure to do, he would get 6 per cent.; if he got £6,000, he would get 6 per cent. for the first £3,000 and 5 per cent. on the second. If he got considerably more he would be reduced to 41/6 per cent. commission on expenditure over £6,000. When I say expenditure, I mean expenditure on wages and materials in respect of the various works.

The sums are bulked for the purpose of commission?—For commission, yes.

120. Chairman.—What do these percentages amount to?—That would depend on the amount of the allocation to a particular engineer. Take Donegal as an example, where very considerable sums are allocated on winter schemes, probably up to £35,000. For the first £3,000 if he got a sum of £3,000 to spend, he would get 6 per cent., that is £180; for the next £3,000 he would get 5 per cent., that is £150; and on the £24,000 remaining he would get 41/6 per cent., that is £1,000. He would get £1,330 altogether, but I do not want you gentlemen to think that the county engineer is to get all that £1,330—he has to pay his staff. He is responsible for the supervision of schemes and responsible for the paying of men employed. He naturally has to employ staff to keep account of the weekly wages and to send out pay orders for each man’s wages. The assistant county engineers in each district must get some percentage out of the 6 per cent. or the 41/6 per cent. for their work in supervising the actual works in the respective areas.

121. Deputy Bartley.—What I would like to ascertain—the information may not be readily available—is, has any comparison been made between the administration of the schemes on the agency basis and the cost as carried out directly by the Office?—The cost as carried out directly by the Office is somewhat dearer. It is difficult to make an actual comparison, but we can go fairly near it. Admittedly, the cost of doing the schemes under the direct control of our own engineers is somewhat more, but we are prepared to say categorically that we get better value for the money. Any persons with experience in carrying out schemes directly under the control of the Office compared with schemes carried out under the control or supervision of county engineers will agree that better value is got under the direct control of the Office owing to the closer supervision that is possible. As Deputies know, county engineers had at the early stage a very considerable amount of work to do and in most cases we have to prevail on county councils to make the services of the county engineers available to our Office to get the work done. A number of county councils objected and continued to object, and finally stated they would refuse to allow their engineers to operate as our agents because they considered their engineers had more work than they could do in their capacity as county engineers. For that reason we were faced with the necessity of making an organisation available for supervising the schemes. The organisation actually started in Tipperary, but we soon took over a number of other counties and as the years went on we took over more, so that we have, as I said earlier three-fifths of the work taken over already. I suppose it is impinging on policy when I say that the process of taking over is continuing and I think Deputies will recall the Parliamentary Secretary stating that he hoped to take over further counties inside the next twelve months. That, I suppose, is not directly connected with to-day’s functions.

122. Chairman.—Is there any danger of over-lapping between works carried out under this Vote and similar works carried out under, say, the Department of Local Government?—No. There might be a possibility of over-lapping as between some of the works and, say, works carried out under the Local Authorities (Works) Act; but when we issue schemes to the county engineers we issue them under the heading “provisional”, and should it so happen that we sanction a scheme which the county council has in mind to do under the Local Authorities (Works) Act, there is a standing instruction that the county engineer is not to start such a scheme but to inform our office that the county council, under the Local Authorities (Works) Act, or from their own funds or in any other way, are going to start that scheme and ask us what he is to do. If we find somebody else financing it, we withdraw our money as there are plenty other places for it to go.

123. How is labour recruited? Do you stamp the cards in respect of all men employed on these schemes?—Yes, the cards of all men employed on the schemes are stamped.

124. I take it all these are works carried out primarily for the relief of unemployment?—Minor employment schemes, yes; bog development schemes, no, and rural improvement schemes, no. Bog development schemes are carried out only in relation to the problem of turf production. The works are either drains or roads. In other words, we drain bogs in areas where the conditions for the cutting of turf are so bad that the best of the turf has had to be left owing to water. In those cases our grants are based on the quantity of turf to be produced. You might have a bog in a particular area where there are 15 families producing their domestic supplies. There may be a shortage of turf in the area and if the bog were drained 20 to 25 families would operate there. It is on the basis of the turf production that we determine the amounts of the grants for bog development schemes and not on the unemployment situation. It is true that we do work on bogs in areas where we give employment scheme grants also. If I may put it this way, we use our employment scheme moneys to do any necessary bog works in areas where there are large numbers of unemployment assistance recipients, and that includes bog roads. In areas where there are no unemployment assistance recipients at all, we utilise bog development money to do any necessary work on bogs. Take Kildare as an example. We give no minor employment schemes whatever in either Kildare, Westmeath or what might be called the eastern counties. Our work on bogs there is financed by the bog development subhead.

125. I was often intrigued to know the definition of “emergency scheme”. What work would be undertaken or what would you deem to be an emergency scheme?—The word “emergency scheme” was introduced, if my recollection is correct, in 1941-42, at the time of the war, when the war emergency was on, and the title has been retained since. The employment subheads of our Vote are urban employment schemes, rural employment schemes, and minor employment schemes. In fact, all the other schemes would come under the heading of emergency schemes; for instance, bog development schemes. Up to the time of the war we did not do development work on bogs except in a very limited way, but, on account of the necessity for increased production of turf, we introduced the bog development subhead at that time and that was described as an emergency scheme. Similarly, in 1943-44, when there was an important question of increasing food, and so on, in the country, the rural improvements scheme was introduced. The rural improvements scheme is not based on unemployment at all. It is based on the necessity for works in rural areas and, consequently, the rural improvements scheme was called an emergency scheme. I suppose it is because nobody bothered to think up some other name for it that it has still retained the title of “Employment and Emergency Schemes”.

Deputy Bartley.—When the emergency is officially declared off you will have to change the title because it can no longer have that particular signification that Mr. Ó hEigeartuigh has explained.

Deputy Sheldon.—You may have a local emergency.

126. Deputy Bartley. — Here is the point—is it not true that you do retain a portion of some of these grants for what can be described as emergency schemes in the old sense of the word, for example, in a case where a road collapses? I made representations in such a case recently and although the road was not on any list of works the Department was able to see that the job was attended to as an emergency matter. I think that is a very useful service. I do not suppose a very large sum of money is required to be retained but it is possible to do that?—Oh, it is, yes. “Emergency” is a good word from the point of view that the Vote is used in miscellaneous ways to do things for which there is no other statutory provision, so that from that point of view the word “emergency”, I suppose, has still a definite significance.

127. Chairman.—Paragraph 17 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General is as follows:—

“The scheme for which provision was made under subhead J (Rural Improvements Scheme) was, for the most part, administered by the Special Employment Schemes Office either directly or through the agency of county engineers. The expenditure amounted to £197,000 and the works carried out under the scheme included the improvement and construction of accommodation roads to houses, farms and bogs, small drainage works, the erection or reconstruction of small bridges, etc. Only works which are estimated to cost not less than £40 are approved and the grants made vary from 75 per cent. to 100 per cent. of their cost. The cash contributions of beneficiaries which were formerly applied to meet part of the cost of the works have, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, been appropriated in aid of the vote, the gross expenditure being charged to the subhead. The amount so appropriated includes £13,255 which had been contributed in previous years.”

128. Mr. Ó Cadhla.—In addition to the £197,000 expended under the subheads, over £36,000 of the issue from the National Development Fund was expended.

129. Deputy Bartley.—This is the first time that you are treating the contributions by the beneficiaries as Appropriations-in-Aid?—Yes, that is so.

Deputy Bartley.—It is more convenient to do it in that way than to show it as a contribution?

Deputy Sheldon.—I think the suggestion came from this Committee.

Mr. Ó Cadhla.—Yes. It is a matter of accounting. The gross figures are shown. In previous years the amount subscribed was not shown so clearly.

Deputy Bartley.—The reason I raise the matter is that we may take it that the figures shown as Appropriations-in-Aid in future can be taken as representing practically entirely the amount of the contributions.

130. Deputy Sheldon.—They are separated?—There are other receipts besides the rural improvements schemes, but the rural improvements schemes undoubtedly are the largest. For instance, the receipts this year, totalled £39,634, I think, and of that £35,800 was the rural improvements scheme subhead. Apart from the £35,800 there was £2,500 miscellaneous receipts under subhead K. They represent mainly the contributions of county councils towards marine works. In addition, from the bog development subhead we had receipts amounting to £336, contributions from private bog owners towards the cost of works, i.e., repair to roads to a privately owned bog, where the owner lets plots annually to a number of tenants and where his annual income was such that we felt he should make some contribution towards the cost of improving the road. Apart from the bog development receipts and the marine work receipts, there are other receipts which total £923, which we describe in our accounts as miscellaneous receipts. They include the sale of surplus material in the finishing of jobs. For instance, particularly in large jobs, marine works, where they are in very inaccessible places, it would not be worth while to take the materials back into store because the transport charges would be probably nearly as much as they would cost. What is done is to sell them locally and dispose of them on that basis. That represented, in fact, £282. In addition, there is bank interest. We finance the county engineers in respect of the carrying out of their schemes, i.e., we give them imprests. Sometimes it is something more than they want and the interest on the imprests amounted to £44. Another main item is the refund of over-payments by the Department of Local Government. That is in connection with the urban schemes, subhead F. The Department of Local Government advance money to the county councils to finance their urban schemes up to 90 per cent. of the cost and when the expenditure is finally worked out it sometimes happens that they find they have advanced more than councils were strictly due on the proportion of the expenditure, so they have to return that to our Vote. The information does not become available until the accounts are audited and the year is over. Consequently, the adjustment in respect of over-payments must come in the following year and comes in then as an appropriation-in-aid.

This is the first year that we got this as an Appropriation-in-Aid. They were formerly Exchequer receipts?—Formerly Exchequer receipts, yes.

131. Chairman.—Paragraphs 18 and 19 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General read as follows:—

“As shown in the account, the vote provisions under subheads F, H, I and J were fully utilised and were supplemented by moneys made available from the National Development Fund (see page 28).”

“The amount charged to subhead K (Miscellaneous Schemes) comprises mainly the cost of improvement works on small fishery harbours and piers carried out by the Office of Public Works on behalf of the Special Employment Schemes Office.”

132. Deputy Sheldon.—In regard to the note on subhead F—Urban Employment Schemes—I notice Mr. Ó hEigeartuigh refers to “advances received from the National Development Fund”. Is it not normal in State financing to refer to an advance in the nature of a loan? These moneys from the National Development Fund are in no way a loan, are they?— No, they are not a loan.

It is just the use of the word “advances”?—That is in the note on F.

Deputy Sheldon.—Yes. It occurs in one or two other places as well; in fact, I think in all it occurs in all of the subheads with the exception of subhead G.

133. Deputy Bartley.—Does this represent an advance payment, an imprest, or something of that sort?—What happened so far as the National Development Fund was concerned in respect of our Vote was that of the £5,000,000 made available for the Fund £500,000 was earmarked for our services, but the payments were not made from the Fund until the position was reached that money was required. Perhaps “advances” is not the happiest expression there.

Deputy Sheldon.—I notice the Comptroller and Auditor General carefully avoided using it in his paragraph.

Chairman.—“Advances”, as explained, is as good as any other word. They are really advances on the National Development Fund, a fund that was set up for the purpose of advancing money to any other Department.

Deputy Sheldon.—In ordinary language when people talk of an advance it is usually meant to refer to a loan?—The word “advance” is related to the £500,000 total grant. That is the background of the use of the expression. Actually the £500,000 is available for expenditure.

Mr. Ó Cadhla.—It could be regarded as an advance for particular works.

134. Deputy Bartley.—The sums set out on page 28 under the heading National Development Fund are additional to what are shown on page 26 setting out the Vote —is that so?—Yes.

135. Deputy Sheldon.—What happens the balance which is referred to on page 28. It is not surrendered, I take it?— No. It is available for expenditure. There is considerably more available for expenditure, but that will come into a new year. The original grant was £500,000. In actual fact, if I may use the expresion “advance”, we asked the Department of Finance to advance £350,000 only of that £500,000 during the year. That was the best estimate that we could make towards the end of the financial year of what we would spend, but we did not spend up to our expectations and out of the £350,000 we have £62,757 available from the advances, but, in addition to that, we have the other £150,000 out of the £500,000 that we did not draw and that is also available for 1954-55.

136. Would you get the interest on this? Does that come into the “miscellaneous”?—No. We draw only as required. We may get a little of the interest out of it inasmuch as the advances from the National Development Fund for the minor employment schemes, bog development and rural improvement schemes form part of the total imprests the county engineers had and to that extent they would build up portion of the interest.

137. Deputy Bartley.—There are two sums—£150,000, i.e., the difference between £350,000 estimated and the £500,000 made available, plus this balance of £62,000, on 31st March, 1954. In preparing the programme of works for the ensuing year, I take it the programme is not inflated to the extent of these two sums, that you just draw up your programme of works in the ordinary way and that this money becomes part of the new vote for the ensuing year. Is that the position?—Not entirely. It is taken into consideration, undoubtedly, in determining what new money we get for the year, but once the original £500,000 grant was made available, we had it and none of it goes back to the Exchequer. To that extent the grant from the National Development Fund differs from the Vote account. What money we get from a Vote that is not expended on 31st March we have to hand back. The grant from the National Development Fund we do not hand back. The balance is available for expenditure the following year, but, undoubtedly, the Minister for Finance, when making up his mind what grant we got in 1954-55 from the National Development Fund was very fully aware of how much we had in our “Kitty” from the previous year, and reduced us accordingly.

In other words, you might as well surrender it?—Well, not entirely, because it gives us much more latitude in the spending of money. For instance, when working on the allocations based on the £500,000 we got in December, 1953, we did not tie ourselves unduly from the point of view of the end of the financial year, knowing that that money was available and was not being surrendered. We could afford, in consequence, to take a longer view on the amount we would make available for particular schemes.

138. Chairman.—With regard to subhead A—Salaries, Wages and Allowances —and subhead B—Travelling Expenses—I note that Travelling Expenses are more than one-fifth of the gross salaries. This seems to be a high proportion?—The travelling expenses necessarily are high related to the salaries, having regard to the nature of the work of our inspectors. The salary subhead includes the salaries of 36 inspectors and they are continually moving around the country inspecting schemes so that the expenses necessarily are relatively high compared with their salaries. They are in different places on successive nights in many cases, moving around from place to place; they get subsistence allowances in addition to the ordinary allowance they get for travelling. Of course, the salaries subhead does not include the wages of all our workers who are employed on the schemes. They appear against the different subheads. I understand that you are comparing subhead B against subhead A?

Yes?—That comparison is not really realistic from the point of view that the salaries subhead contains only the salaries of the headquarters staff employed in 30 Earlsfort Terrace, plus the salaries of the travelling inspectors. The wages of the grades from supervising ganger down to gangers and workmen are reflected in subheads H, I and J and really those should be added together to relate the proportion of the expenditure. The travelling expenses should be related to the totals of H, I and J rather than to subhead A.

139. Deputy Bartley.—In view of that would it be well to consider incorporating the travelling expenses as well as their wages under these subheads H, I and J? The wages are, I take it, incorporated in these sums under H, I and J. Is that what I understand from the Accounting Officer?—Nearly 80 per cent. of H, I and J are wages of workmen and wages of gangers and supervising gangers up to that point.

You do not include in these sums here the travelling expenses of say, the supervisor, although his wages are included?— No. The travelling expenses of the supervising ganger and his wages also go against these subheads. It is from the engineers up are charged to subheads A and B.

140. Deputy O’Hara.—In recent times you seem to have adopted a practice of employing lorries of C.I.E., say, some type of mechanical transport, for delivering materials on to roads. Is that a recent practice?—No. That was always done up to a point. Could I know what area of the country is involved?

Mayo, of course, I have in mind. I was speaking to a man in a quarry the other day. He was quarrying out stuff, I take it, for the winter schemes. I understood that he was to deliver on the spot. He mentioned something about going in on the roads and having difficulties with lorries sinking on some of these minor roads. I took it he was delivering material for your people?—The primary purpose of minor employment schemes is to provide employment for persons in receipt of unemployment assistance and in minor employment schemes areas we employ lorries for the delivery of materials only in cases where it would be entirely uneconomical to do anything else. In the case of minor employment schemes, that is, accommodation roads to farmers’ houses and lands we give these as full cost grants, but we expect the benefiting farmers to provide the materials, the stone and gravel, free. Naturally enough, the farmers will give it free only if they benefit and consequently the materials must be immediately adjacent to the work being done. In any instances like that where the material is adjacent to the roads, say, within a mile or a mile and a half of the place, we use carts; and, seeing that minor employment schemes are on the basis that materials are given free, in the case of these schemes very few lorries are used. It is different in the case of bog development schemes and rural improvement schemes. The criterion as to whether we will use lorries or carts in the case of bog development schemes or rural improvement schemes, is which is the cheapest and most economical to handle. In the case of the rural improvements schemes where the beneficiaries contribute portion of the cost, they expect a much higher standard of work done than the minor employment schemes, more particularly because when we do a rural improvements scheme we consider that the farmers should maintain that road themselves thereafter. For that reason a better standard of work and in most cases a better standard of material has to be supplied. The better standard of material may not be immediately adjacent to the road and consequently we often have to go eight, ten and even twelve miles to bring in the materials. For a distance between two to three miles it would obviously be uneconomical to cart it and we use lorries in such instances.

141. Deputy Bartley.—On that point, I suppose in recent years there is difficulty in getting horses and carts in the poorer areas?—There is very considerable difficulty in getting carts.

Deputy Bartley.—You have not the horses now. They have got out of them. I know large stretches where you would not get a horse and cart to employ.

142. Deputy O’Hara.—I do not dispute that by any means. I can well understand that it is not economical to send a horse and cart hauling materials six, seven and eight miles. It would soon use up the money. When the person I have referred to mentioned the matter to me I thought it might be a change of policy on the part of you people?—No, it is not a change of policy. It is probably due to the fact that considerably more rural improvement and bog development schemes are done now than in former years. Rural improvement schemes did not start until 1944, did not develop for a time and for a number of years we were spending only about £90,000. Now it is nearly £300,000—over £250,000. Lorries are used to a very large extent on these rural improvement schemes and obviously the fact that we spend much more money on that type of scheme now than we did in former years means that more lorries will be used in a particular area than formerly.

143. I know of a road, portion of which was done a few years ago, the remaining quarter of a mile or half a mile being left undone. I think a supplementary grant should be made available if at all possible so as to have that stretch of road completed into the village. It naturally causes a lot of ill feeling if you do a mile and a half of road and leave the other half-mile undone particularly over a long number of years?—That would depend upon the particular scheme under which the road is done.

Minor employments?—Under the rural improvements scheme, which is contributory, where a road is, say, a mile and a half long, and the people near the county road are prepared to put forward a contribution we would do their portion; if the people at the further end were not prepared to contribute, we would not do the further end.

Deputy O’Hara.—In this case, it was a minor relief scheme, which was a full cost grant from your Department.

Deputy Sheldon.—Maybe the employment situation has changed?—It could be.

144. Deputy Bartley.—There is another important aspect. I mentioned a moment ago that horses and carts are disappearing now. Has this fact been taken into account in deciding the width of the roads? I admit making the roads wider than they used to be involves heavy expenditure of money, but at the same time even if you get a shorter length done, the necessity to have the roads wide enough to carry lorries should be borne in mind, and where the road is of very considerable length a turning table should be provided on it?—In the case of turning tables, you are referring to bog schemes?

They might possibly be a combination of accommodation and bog roads, say to a village located some distance in and then further on the road takes on the nature of a bog road?—We have provided turning tables in bog roads where we considered the circumstances justified such a provision. Generally speaking, the roads we make are capable of carrying lorry traffic. Actually, in determining the width of the road, we necessarily take into account the volume and nature of the traffic on it. There are some very poor areas where lorry traffic is very unlikely to come and in cases like that we usually operate on a cart basis. Admittedly, they are few and far between now because even in the backward areas turf is invariably lorried from the bog to the houses. Therefore, in most instances, the roads are wide enough to carry lorries. On the general question of the width of roads, it depends upon the volume and the nature of the traffic. Where the volume and nature are not very heavy, we would provide a bye-pass or lie-by instead of a continuous width to carry a double line of traffic.

A full double width is not necessary?— Most of our roads are not less than eight feet wide; eight feet even would be low, but there are very few that are not that width at least.

The Accounting Officer is aware that horse transport is scarcer in the poorer areas than in the places where the land is fertile and where they can maintain horses?—Yes. That has been adverted to and provision is made for lorry traffic where it arises.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 29—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR JUSTICE.

Mr. T. J. Coyne, called and examined.

145. Deputy Sheldon.—On subhead A.1 —Headquarters Staff—you refer to savings being due to retrenchments. As there is only a saving of £2,000 on the whole subhead, it does not look as if the retrenchments have been very substantial?—You are quite right. The retrenchment was a post of Writing Assistant which secured us an economy of £200.

146. Chairman.—On subhead A.4—Legal and Technical Assistance—and subhead A.5—Irish Legal Terms Advisory Committee—there has been no expenditure for some time. Is provision under these heads necessary?—Yes. Subhead A.4 is intended to cover payments that may have to be made for draftsmen assisting the several Rules Committees. There are Rules Committees for each of the separate Courts, the most important being, of course, the Supreme and High Courts. We are yet without Rules for the Supreme and High Courts and the work of preparing and drafting Rules has been going on for several years. There is attached to that Rules Committee a draftsman who is a member of the Bar and he gets paid on a certificate from the Chief Justice in respect of work actually done by him. But he is not in a position to work continuously; he can only work when the Rules Committees have taken decisions on particular matters that are the subject of rules. We have not had to make any payment in this particular year. We did make some payments, I think, in the following year and we expect to have to make further payments until the Rules are completed. I am afraid I cannot say positively when the Rules will be completed. This work has been going on for 15 or 20 years and may well take another five years. It is necessary to make a token provision in case any payment falls to be made during the year. As regards subhead A.5, the work of drafting the orders which that Committee makes fixing Irish equivalents for the legal terms in common use, falls to be done by two joint secretaries, one of whom is an official of the Translation Office and the other an outside Barrister, who, when his services are required, gets £200 a year. In the particular year we are considering, it was not necessary to employ any outside assistance and such work as had to be done was done by the official of the Translation Office.

147. On subhead A.6—An Bórd Uchtála —is there any sign from year to year of an increase in the number of certificates issued?—I think this year was a bit abnormal by reason of the fact that there is a provision enabling children to be legally adopted up to the age of 21 years. That provision is a temporary one and it applies only to children who were informally adopted prior to the passing of the Adoption Act and it expires at the end of 1954. As a result of the impending expiration of that provision a number of persons who had informally adopted children who were coming up to the age of 21 made application with the result that we had an excessive number of applications—when I say an excessive number I mean a number in excess of what we would normally expect to receive. In the first three months of 1953, 1,200 applications were received by the Board and during the whole of 1953, 2,500 applications were received and 400 Adoption Orders made. In the first month of 1954 there were 70 applications and 98 Adoption Orders were made. But you may take it that, at any rate, the number of applications in this particular financial year was rather higher than we would normally expect to receive and the probability is that the number of applications and Orders will tend to fall off for some little time to come when we will arrive at a normal figure. It is impossible at this stage to say what the normal figure is likely to be.

148. Deputy Sheldon.—With reference to what Mr. Coyne has said, I notice in the current estimate that provision for An Bórd Uchtála is double the expenditure in 1953-54, so it looks as if there was still a considerable expansion. The current estimate is £3,600?—I think we have had to increase the staff. I do not know whether it was in this year or not that we had to employ two extra typists and we have since appointed an inspector. I think you will find that that is partly the explanation.

You have eight now as against three in the year of account?—Yes.

149. I merely made the point with reference to Mr. Coyne’s remarks that, after this excessive year, he expected the work to fall off. It now looks as if, having gone past the excessive year, he now needs twice as much staff as in the excessive year?—I suggest this further explanation. I read out figures for you and, no doubt, you noticed that the number of Orders made was considerably less than the number of applications. In 1953 there were 2,500 applications, but only 400 Orders were made. Therefore, there is probably a very substantial back-log of cases. I think that is probably the explanation.

150. With regard to Extra Receipts payable to Exchequer—I may have asked about this before, but I cannot remember clearly—I notice that, with regard to the first one—Fees for nationality and citizenship certificates—a statutory authority is quoted, namely, No. 13 of 1935. No authority is quoted for the second one. What type of authority is there for the collection of fees for documents of identity?—I would have to have notice of that question. I understand that these documents of identity are issued in pursuance of international agreement. Whether that is in the nature of a formal agreement or merely the accepted international practice, I cannot say for certain. It is possible that the fee is prescribed in that agreement—for instance, that it must not be more than ten gold francs, or something. I will give you a note on it, if you like: I do not know the answer.*

151. Deputy Bartley.—Would a visa or passport be regarded as a document of identity?—No. A visa might have to be on a document of identity. A passport is a document of identity. These particular documents of identity that we are talking about are given to Stateless people who cannot get a passport in the ordinary way to permit them to travel. We have in this country a small number of Stateless people, and there are many hundreds of thousands of them in Europe and no country is willing to issue them with passports. However, this arrangement has been come to, by general agreement, that they may be provided with a paper of identity and it would have to be visaed if the person wished to travel to a country requiring a visa for entry. I suspect we fixed this fee arbitrarily to cover our expenses at a round figure of what we think it is reasonable to charge: it may be regulated by international agreement. I can verify that and send you a note.

152. Chairman.—With regard to the first one—Fees for nationality and citizenship certificates (No. 13 of 1935)—I notice that the amount realised is just double the amount estimated. Is it easy for a foreigner to get a certificate here or is there anything to prevent a foreigner from coming in and settling down here? —He has to fulfil certain statutory requirements in respect of residence: he has to be, normally, five years here. He has to be a person of good character. He has to have some visible means of support. Subject to the fulfilment of these conditions, it is not particularly difficult. It is very easy if it is a person who is a woman alien married to an Irish citizen. It is slightly more difficult if it is a male alien married to an Irish female citizen. The policy is to naturalise anybody of good character who is able to support himself, who has fulfilled the requisite qualifications and who has given some evidence of his intention permanently to reside here, that is, who is not a person who is merely seeking our citizenship for the purpose of emigrating to somewhere else. The reason why our estimate fell so short of what we realised in this case—and that is 1953—is probably that it was just five years after movement in Europe became free again. Prior to 1947-48 in Europe, people were not free in general to leave their country of origin. No doubt, many came to this country in 1946, 1947 and 1948, and it is probable that some of these were made citizens in this particular year. That would be my guess. When we are estimating, we have no other yardstick to apply than what we got the previous year or the previous couple of years: it is conjectural in that sense.

VOTE 30—GÁRDA SÍOCHÁNA.

Mr. T. J. Coyne further examined.

153. Deputy Bartley. — Subhead A relates to salaries, wages and pay. How does the reduction come about there?— The saving is due to the fact that there were more retirements than we made provision for, offset by the appointment of more recruits than we had reckoned on.

Yes, I see you have a note there to that effect?—We estimated there would be 300 retirements: there turned out to be 410. We estimated we would take in 220 new recruits: in fact, we took in 325.

154. Chairman.—Are you recruiting for the Force at present?—That is an awkward question. We had an examination some time ago and a number of people qualified. We are not calling any of those up for the present because we have a back-log of people who qualified in a previous examination. However, I have no doubt but that those who qualified in the last examination will be called up in due course, but not for the moment.

155. Subhead E refers to clothing and equipment. In the note, reference is made to reserve-stock materials. Do you carry large reserve stocks? — We get all our clothing from the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. They hold the stock for us and they purchase the new cloth. What happened in this case was that some years ago we stock-piled cloth. We were under the impression that the Department of Posts and Telegraphs were holding a stock of this cloth on our behalf. In fact, they were selling this cloth back to us, leaving us under the impression that we were purchasing new cloth and still had the old stock. In other words, there was a lack of liaison. We were not notified that the cloth we were getting was cloth which, in fact, we thought was in the store. That is how this discrepancy arose. There was no loss to public funds. There was just a misunderstanding as to what the stock was at the time we were framing our estimate.

156. Subhead F refers to furniture, bedding, and so forth. You were carrying out a scheme of improvements in barracks. Why are all the public buildings not furnished by the Board of Works?—Why not, indeed! We should very much like if the Department of Finance could see their way to sanction such an arrangement. I suppose, however, there are difficulties and objections. We have never felt that the present arrangement was a very satisfactory one. The accommodation in many stations leaves a lot to be desired. It is a problem we are tackling gradually. The difficulties are mainly financial ones. It would take a great deal of money to put all the stations in the condition we would like to see them in and in the condition the police themselves want to have them in. However, we are making some progress.

157. Subhead H refers to transport and carriage. How many cars have the Department now?—In all, 178. There are 138 Depôt and city cars and there are 40 cars in the several districts.

158. Deputy O’Hara. — I notice that, mainly, you have Vauxhall cars. I have no interest in the motor business, but I have a Vauxhall myself. I think that, for a period, you had Ford Prefects. What made the Department change their minds as between one make of car and another? —Personally, I myself would favour the use of Fords as being the most generally useful. However, the police authorities, and successive Ministers, thought we ought to give other companies an opportunity of tendering: they thought we ought to test out other cars. From all I have heard, this particular type of Vauxhall we are using is a very satisfactory car of its type. It is probably too early to say anything about committing ourselves to a policy of having Vauxhalls rather than Fords of a particular type; we are advised in this matter by the police authorities and occasionally Ministers have their own views. I have no reason to feel that the purchase of these Vauxhalls was a mistake but I cannot tell you, without notice, whether we are likely to buy more of them.

Deputy O’Hara.—I suppose we ought to change to a different type again.

Deputy Bartley.—Turn and turn about.

159. Chairman.—Do you do your own maintenance?—Most of it, yes. Down the country we employ local garages. Certainly, we do all the minor repairs and some major repairs in the Depôt, but I take it that it is more economical, where there is some major repair to be done in the country, to have it done on the spot.

160. Deputy O’Hara.—On subhead I— Fuel, Light and Water—does that mean water supplies to Garda stations?—Yes. They have to pay in certain places for water. I suppose it is commonly on the rates, but there must be some place where there is a separate water rate.

Deputy Sheldon. — Water rates are always separate.

Deputy O’Hara. — There seems to be some delay in the matter of connecting Garda barracks with water-mains. I think it is the Board of Works which deals with it?—Yes.

In the case of our own town, Foxford, County Mayo, the county council have laid on a new water system and, so far as I am aware—unless it has happened recently—the Garda barracks have not been connected. I was rather surprised because the barracks is quite near the water-mains and I was wondering what was the cause of the delay?—I do not know what the cause it, but you may take it that we ask for the necessary sanction to connect a station, if the matter is brought to our notice, as I am sure it has. I do not know what the cause of the delay is, but the Board of Works may have their hands so full with a multiplicity of more pressing matters that the less urgent matters are left alone.

161. Chairman.—On subhead O—Local Security Force: Compensation for Death or Personal Injuries—how many people are now receiving compensation?— Twelve, I understand, are receiving compensation. One of the people who was receiving compensation in the financial year in question died during the year and some of the children passed the age limit.

162. Deputy Bartley. — How are the Appropriations-in-Aid made up? — They are set out there.

There is a note, yes?—They may be set out more fully in the Estimate.

163. Deputy Sheldon.—With regard to Extra Receipts payable to Exchequer, what happened that the fees for the stamping of bottles fell so disastrously? —I cannot tell you that, except that they vary in direct ratio to the number of bottles stamped, and to answer your question, I should have to know why fewer bottles were presented for stamping or manufactured possibly, in the year in question. What I do know is that the disastrous fall in receipts has led us to consider whether, if it continues, we will not have to increase our fees, because these fees were designed to cover the cost of the service. I am afraid it is an industrial question to determine why fewer bottles were required. I do not know whether it has any connection with the application of the publicans for permission to increase the price of beer.

It may have been only a temporary thing, because I see that in the current Estimate you are still estimating for a considerable sum from this source?—Yes. The Estimate would have been framed on the average for some years, but I do know that when we observed this fall ourselves, we said that if it goes on, we will have to revise our fees. We will not know, I am afraid, for a year or two what the trend is going to be. It may be that it was an exceptional fall.

164. How are these fees collected—they are cash fees?—Yes. There is a charge of 1/1 per gross on the bottles stamped and it is paid, as I understand, in cash.

165. Chairman. — With regard to the Garda Síochána Reward Fund, 1953-54, I see that there was a sum of £12,376 credited. What are the main sources of the receipts?—The largest single source is the weights and measures fees, all of which are paid into the Garda Síochána Reward Fund. Then, the fund is fed by disciplinary fines, fishery rewards and Revenue rewards, but the largest single item which runs into £9,000 or £10,000 a year is the weights and measures fees.

VOTE 31—PRISONS.

Mr. T. J. Coyne further examined.

166. Chairman. — What is the average cost of maintenance of a prisoner for 1953-54?—I have not got a separate figure for maintenance in the wider sense, but for actual victualling or feeding, the cost of feeding a prisoner in 1953-54 was £34 11s. That is food only and it would be more appropriate to the next subhead, subhead B.

167. Deputy Bartley. — Subhead F— Rent, etc.—what is the rent in respect of? Is it a dwelling house?—No. It is a rental we pay for some recreation grounds, in particular, the playing field adjacent to St. Patrick’s, Clonmel, which we run for the boys.

168. Chairman.—Why is it necessary to have a subhead for £10 in connection with the Fine Fund?—I am not sure that I know the answer to this. The law provides, in effect, that where a prison officer is fined for dereliction of duty or some disciplinary offence the fines shall be used for the benefit of the prison staff, and I am not sure why that necessitates a separate subhead at all. I suppose the fines are paid into the Exchequer and then a grant is made out of the fund for some welfare purpose. I think that is the explanation, but I will have to look into it and give you a note on it.*

Deputy Sheldon. — It is not the employer’s contribution to the Fine Fund.

169. Chairman.—The note to subhead L —Telegrams and Telephones — refers to Cork and Sligo prisons being reduced to minor status. Is it economical to keep them open at all?—No. The answer quite definitely is that it is not economical—it is most uneconomical—and it is proposed to close them at, perhaps I should say, no far distant date. It will be highly inconvenient closing Sligo prison in particular, because there is the difficulty with respect to remand prisoners in Donegal and that portion of the north-west and short sentence prisoners—seven days or so. If we close Sligo, we will have no prison nearer than Dublin or Limerick and it is going to be highly inconvenient and it is a consideration which has weighed with us. You cannot unfortunately in the condition in which the law is detain anybody in a place that is not a prison, except in certain circumstances, and some legislation will be requisite, but there can be no two opinions about the uneconomical position that exists.

170. With regard to subhead Q— Appropriations-in-Aid — what is the nature of these receipts? Apart from the articles used in the prisons how is the remainder disposed of?—If you turn over the page you will see an abstract from the accounts and a reconciliation of the abstract from the Appropriation Account. The figures in subhead Q are a sort of net receipts from sales during the year, plus the amount that was due in the beginning of the year which was paid in the course of the year. That totalled £25,309. You want to know what we sold. Was that your question? I have not got any itemised list. I can tell you in general what we make and, consequently, what we sell. We manufacture all the clothing for the prisons and for prison officers in the prisons. We run farms which produce a small quantity of agricultural produce most, if not all, of which we sell back to the prisons themselves. We run a number of minor industries like mat making, broom making. Baking, of course, is a big industry. We bake all our own bread in the prisons.

Deputy Sheldon.—And you make mail bags?—We do woodwork and cut crude wood for kindling. From all these sources the money you refer to comes. I might mention—if I may add this—a very substantial industry in this connection. We make the post bags for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs.

VOTE 32—DISTRICT COURT.

Mr. T. J. Coyne further examined.

171. Chairman.—With regard to Extra Receipts payable to Exchequer—District Court fines—does the sum here represent the exact amount of fines paid over?— I take it that the figure of £20,600 is the exact amount to the nearest penny paid into the Exchequer in the course of the year.

172. In the explanatory note at the foot of the page, I see that the amount of £19,179 was received in respect of fees (stamps) paid in the District Court?— You will see them in the Finance Account. There is sometimes a slight discrepancy in the fines. We take in fines up to the last day of the financial year. I suppose that the figures may not be the same in the Finance Account. However, particulars of these fees (stamps) that we are talking about are given in the Finance Accounts. They are merely mentioned in the Appropriation Account.

VOTE 33—CIRCUIT COURT.

Mr. T. J. Coyne further examined.

173. Deputy Bartley.—With regard to subhead E, how many appointments have there been of sheriffs and under-sheriffs? —There are no longer any under-sheriffs. The law provided that as the former under-sheriffs died off their duties should devolve on the county registrar and a subsequent Act empowered the Minister for Justice to make an Order relieving the county registrar of the former undersheriff’s duties. Having made such an Order, it was then competent for the Government to appoint a sheriff. As I prefaced my remarks by saying that there are no under-sheriffs at all, that office has been extinguished but there are four sheriffs—two in Dublin City and County and two in Cork City and County.

174. Deputy Sheldon. — I take it that this would not represent all the remuneration? — What are we looking for exactly?

Subhead E — Sheriffs and UnderSheriffs?—Of course not, Deputy. Normally, they are paid £600 a year I think. I think they are all paid the same. They get a salary of £600 a year which is intended merely to cover the expenses of opening an office, equipping it, and staffing it with the minimum staff. Their actual remuneration is derived from the fees payable under the several Fees Orders. That is a non-pensionable salary.

175. Deputy Bartley.—Where are their fees accounted for? — They are not accounted for to anybody expect their bank managers and their conscience. They are entitled to the benefit of their fees. Their fees are prescribed by law. If they seek to charge a customer too much he may complain and bring them before the court but they are not liable to account for their fees at all.

Deputy Bartley. — The law gives the authority and asks no further questions.

176. Chairman. — In connection with Subhead F — Appropriations-in-Aid — what is the nature of these receipts?— They are specified on page 88. The heavy items are the remuneration and expenses received by county registrars on account of revision of jurors lists. They total £12,000. The other big item is one of £16,500 in respect of fees received by county registrars in connection with the execution of court orders for the Land Commission.

177. Deputy Bartley.—From whom do the county registrars get the fees in respect of the compilation of the voters lists?—To the best of my knowledge and belief they receive them from the county council and maybe from the Corporation in the case of a county borough. In any event, they come from the local authorities. Of course, they are surrendered by the county registrar to the State. He does not make any profit out of them.

178. Chairman. — Under the heading Extra Receipts payable to Exchequer, the interest on public bank accounts amounted to £307. What accounts are these? — They are equity accounts and general accounts of county registrars. Every county registrar has a bank account for current and other expenses, and it appears that some banks continue the practice of allowing county registrars interest on their current accounts. Formerly, banks were glad to get your money and they allowed you interest even on a current account. I suppose the courts are a venerable institution and this old custom has persisted in some parts of the country. That was why you get that £307. We let it accumulate and that is why you have that sum there. We let it accumulate for some years and then when it reaches a sizeable sum we ask them to surrender it. We examine their accounts. Every year we observe there are small sums of interest credited. We do not bother about it until it gets to a sizeable sum and then we take it.

179. Deputy Sheldon.—I suppose there is no significance in the fact that the Circuit Court seems to be the only one to have waste paper?

180. Chairman.—I notice in the note at the foot of the Appropriations-in-Aid on page 88 that the amount of £6,861 was received in respect of Circuit Court fees (stamps). What exactly are these?— These are mainly in regard to civil matters. When you issue a court process, you have to pay various court fees at various stages of the proceedings. If you ever had a solicitor’s bill you would have learned that one of the items is outlay. It includes these fees (stamps). It is also included in the Finance Accounts but not in the Appropriations Accounts. That is really what it is. It deals principally, if not exclusively, with civil matters.

VOTE 34—SUPREME COURT AND HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE.

Mr. T. J. Coyne further examined.

181. Chairman.—Regarding subhead B, which relates to travelling and incidental expenses, would it be fair to ask what these items are?—The incidental expenses consist of postage, travelling, uniforms and gowns, laundry, subscription to the Law Library and a number of miscellaneous items. The heavy items in this particular year were £96 for uniforms and gowns — uniforms for the porters and gowns for the ushers—and laundry was an unexpectedly heavy item at £47? It concerns the cleaning of the gowns. I do not think the ushers wear bands or any linen. It seems a heavy item but if you were to look back over the years it is no more than the general average— £47, £43 and £45 respectively for the three previous years.

182. On subhead E — Costs and Expenses of Services under Section 55 of the Court Officers Act, 1926—could you tell us what is the nature of these expenses?— These expenses are incurred by the Registrar of Wards. In this country, minors and lunatics come under the control of the President of the High Court and it is his duty to safeguard their property and interests generally. His administrative officer is the Registrar of Wards, whose duty it is to go around and visit persons who would be termed wards, that is, minors or persons who may be detained in private or public mental hospitals. The wards whom he would visit would be people under the age of 21 who may have been boarded out with somebody and his job would be to see how they are getting on and so forth.

183. I should like to find out something about the details of item No. 2 under Appropriations-in-Aid on page 90. It refers to the Land Judge’s Office: Duty on Estates. What is the nature of this Duty?—It arises out of an Act passed in the middle of the last century in relation to the estates of our betters, meaning the gentry of the ascendancy class, whose affairs throughout the country were in a state of hopeless confusion and were saddled with debt and a multiplicity of mortgages. They could not be sold because nobody could make title to them. Some of these estates had a score or more mortgages and the title to them was so obscure that it was quite impossible to make title to them, and most of these unfortunate people were beggared and were unable to realise their estates. So the British Parliament in those days passed the Incumbered Estates Act which provided a method by which these estates could be sold by the Courts: they had to be brought into the Court and certain arguments about them and their title were heard along with the priorities of the several mortgages. This Statute provided that there was to be a payment of 10/- ad valorem on the price fixed on the estate. It occurs only very occasionally now, possibly once every 15 years, that a survival of that kind comes into Court and is disposed of. I think we have had two or three within the last 30 years and there has been a charge of 10/- per hundred. As I say, we have hardly ever such a case nowadays. That is the history of that item.

VOTE 35—LAND REGISTRY AND REGISTRY OF DEEDS.

Mr. T. J. Coyne further examined.

184. Chairman. — Under subhead C— Compensation for Losses payable under Section 22 of the Registration of Title Act, 1942—I notice that there is no expenditure shown?—That is a tribute to the efficiency and integrity of the staff. Formerly, there was an Insurance Fund out of which people who were prejudiced by mistakes made in the Land Registry Office could be compensated but the Fund was abolished and the Exchequer took on liability for paying any compensation in cases where the compensation was formerly recovered from the Fund. Fortunately, in the year in question we have not had any such cases.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 58—EXTERNAL AFFAIRS.

Mr. S. Murphy called and examined.

185. Deputy Bartley.—Under subhead A.2, I notice there is a big drop in travelling expenses? — The reason for that is that we contemplated, when the Estimate was being set up, there would be more travelling than it turned out there actually was. One has to provide for it, but sometimes it does not come off.

186. Chairman. — On subhead B.1 — Salaries, Wages and Allowances—relating to representation abroad, I suppose the staff in our offices abroad are brought out from home. Are there people employed locally? — There are some local staff employed but they are very junior such as typing staff. The main part of our staff would be brought out from home.

187. With regard to subhead B.5, which deals with repatriation and maintenance of destitute Irish persons abroad, I notice there was not much expenditure during the year?—That is so. We repatriate only from European countries. We do not repatriate from Canada or the United States or Australia or from any far distant places where there might be a large population of Irish origin.

188. Deputy Bartley.—Under subhead C.1 — Cultural Relations with other Countries (Grant-in-Aid)—I should like to know if the item has anything to do with the Cultural Relations Committee. Is this the amount from which their expenses are met?—It is.

189. Chairman. — To whom is this Grant-in-Aid paid?—It is operated by a committee which is appointed each year by the Minister for External Affairs and the committee’s recommendations have to be approved by the Minister.

190. On what is this money spent?—On external relations—on the purchase and distribution of publicity material of a cultural kind and on donations and loans to foreign Governments for matters of a cultural nature such as pictures, books, films. It also relates to grants to Irish and foreign institutions promoting contacts of cultural character.

191. Deputy Sheldon.—On subhead C.2 —Irish News Agency—I wonder if any progress has been made in fixing the terms and conditions of repayment?—The position at the moment is that a scheme for the purpose of repayments is under discussion between ourselves and the Department of Finance and we hope that we will have a scheme in the very near future. What the scheme will do I dare not say, but it will be there anyway.

192. Chairman.—On C.3—Information Material—can you give us any idea as to what that service covers?—A number of pamphlets have been published of one kind or another. One of them is “Ireland’s Right to Unity,” which is, as you know, a document agreed upon by the all-Party Committee. Then there is the Information Bulletin, which is prepared and circulated to countries where we have missions. Then we have copies of “The Economy of Ireland,” and we have a number of brochures of various sorts of a tourist nature to interest travellers to Ireland. That is about the extent of that. Of course, the posting of these and cost of sending them abroad is included in the amount expended.

193. Deputy Sheldon.—On C.4—Official Entertainment—that is very close estimation with such an unwieldy item.

Deputy Bartley. — You do not stop entertaining when the sum is expended? It may be that there is over-lapping?— People eat more than we thought they would or something of that sort?

194. Chairman. — With regard to subhead D—Appropriations-in-Aid—I notice under Extra Receipts Payable to Exchequer, an item, Accumulated Balances on Dead Accounts — what are they?— These arise in that sometimes people send in with their applications for visas the amount of the visa fee or they may send in with passport applications the passport fee and for some reason best known to themselves do not claim them afterwards, and after a time these accumulate. We keep the money in suspense for a certain time fearing it might be claimed back and after that we pay it into the Exchequer.

195. On the item — Refund by International Council for Non-Intervention in Spain (1937-39) in respect of share of unexpended surplus on winding-up—can you give us any further information?—That was at the time of the Spanish Civil War. We were members of the Non-Intervention Council and we supplied a certain amount of money to have what was known as non-intervention officers posted. When the Civil War was over there was a certain amount left unexpended and this is the proportion of it that we got back from our contribution.

196. Deputy Sheldon. — Perhaps we could know what that cost us? I presume we did not get all our money back?— No, we got a proportion of what was left and I assume it was in proportion to our contribution. No, we did not get any of what we spent back. This was left over and they gave us back that. It cost so much a year to participate.

You would not know off-hand what it was?—No.

197. Deputy Bartley.—But we had a number of Irish people employed?—Yes, we had mainly Irish people as far as we were concerned.

198. What is the nature of this item of £178, stated to be an honorarium paid by Loras College, Dubuque, Iowa, for commencement address by official? That does not sound very intelligible to me, I am afraid?—It arises in this way: the Ambassador in Washington was invited to give the commencement address at this University.

Commencement of term? — Commencement address. Their regulations prescribe that the speaker should get an honararium of 500 dollars and the Ambassador lodged that money. We do not take fees of that sort.

VOTE 59—INTERNATIONAL CO-OPERATION.

Mr. S. Murphy further examined.

199. Chairman. — On subhead A.1— Council of Europe; Contribution towards the Expenses of the Council, B.1— Organisation for European Economic Co-operation; Contribution towards the Expenses of the Organisation, and C.1— United Nations Organisation,—Contribution to the United Nations International Children’s Emergency Fund — on what basis are the amounts of these contributions fixed? — I think they are based, apparently, on a proportion of the national income of each country.

200. Deputy Bartley.—With regard to subhead C., we have been refused admittance to the United Nations Organisation and I see that we are contributing £10,000 to what is described as the United Nations International Children’s Emergency Fund. How does it come about that they accept £10,000 from us and will not allow us into the Organisation?

Deputy Sheldon.—We are turning the other cheek.

Mr. Murphy.—I think the £10,000 is given as a humanitarian gesture and it is provided for these children. The Organisation carries out a long-range programme of child aid. In the case of the Irish contribution it is stipulated that the amount of the contribution is to be spent in the purchase of goods in this State and for this purpose, the amount of our contribution was paid into an Irish bank in the name of U.N.I.C.E.F. and that account is operated by a U.N.I.C.E.F. official and the secretary or assistant secretary of this Department. Payments are made from time to time according as goods are supplied by Irish firms and when our Department or possibly others as well are satisfied that the payments should be made. It is for Irish goods it is being used.

Deputy Bartley.—It is good to see that they will accept our money if they will not accept ourselves.

The witness withdrew.

The Committee adjourned.

* See Appendix VI.

* See Appendix VII.