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MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA(Minutes of Evidence)Dé hAoine, 4 Samhain, 1955.Friday, 4th November, 1955.The Committee sat at 10.30 a.m.
DEPUTY CARTER in the chair. Liam Ó Cadhla (An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste) and Mr. J. F. Mac Inerney (An Roinn Airgeadais) called and examined.VOTE 39—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION.Labhrás Ó Muirthe called and examined.476. Deputy Sheldon.—With regard to subhead A.2—Travelling Expenses—I notice that the excess is fairly considerable in relation to the grant and also that about the same excess took place in the previous year. I am wondering why, if expenditure is actually running at this level, the Estimate has not been corrected?—The amount is £360 more than was granted. Last year, the amount was £323 more than was granted, was it not?—It was not too easy to estimate accurately what would be required for travelling expenses. In the first instance, the cost of travelling increased, and secondly—which is more important, I think, in this connection— the cost of foreign travel. In this particular year, we sent representatives to international conferences in connection with education. That very largely accounts for the extra cost of travelling expenses there. 477. Deputy Bartley.—With regard to subhead B.1—Salaries, etc.—how is it that the salaries are not all bulked? How is it that the salaries under subhead A.1 and the salaries under subhead B.1. are not bulked together? I know that two headings are provided but, after all, the salaries under subhead B.1. are as fixed and permanent as the salaries under A.1. What is the explanation?—The salaries under subhead B.1 are salaries in connection with the inspection organisation while the salaries under subhead A.1. are salaries in connection with the ordinary administration staff. 478. Deputy Bartley.—With regard to subhead C—Preparation of Irish Vocabularies—does the Department prepare the vocabularies for the various Departments requiring them? Is it a speciality of the Department of Education?—It is really under the Department of Education but there is a particular committee for technical terms. 479. Is the committee an inter-Departmental committee?—Not necessarily. I do not like to use the expression but it is a committee of experts. Non Civil Servants as well as Civil Servants?—Yes. 480. Chairman.—Is the work nearing completion?—Not much has been done recently. Deputy Bartley.—I hope not. I hope our vocabulary will continue to grow so much that the work will continue for a very long time. Mr. Ó Muirthe.—Technical terms. Chairman.—I hope the Deputy does not anticipate the answers the Accounting Officer would give. Deputy Bartley.—I was afraid he might give the wrong one. 481. Chairman.—Subhead E. refers to Appropriations in Aid. What are the functions of the Registration Council referred to in item No. 1 of the details? —It has functions largely in the matter of laying down conditions and qualifications for secondary teachers. 482. Deputy Bartley.—What is the Registration Council?—It is a council which was established for the purpose of laying down conditions in connection with the qualifications of those in the secondary teaching profession. They are an independent body with their own regulations. They determine what kind of qualification will permit a man or woman to be registered as a secondary teacher. Normally, it is a University degree and a Higher Diploma in Education. However, there are certain other qualifications, shall I say, from institutions outside Ireland which come under review. The Registration Council then determine whether the qualification, in respect of which an application has been made, is suitable for the purpose of registration. VOTE 40—PRIMARY EDUCATION.Labhrás Ó Muirthe further examined.483. Chairman.—Paragraph 45 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General states:— “Subhead A.3.—Preparatory Colleges, etc. Accounts have been furnished to me showing the receipts and expenditure for the school year 1953-54 in connection with the farms and gardens attached to the colleges. Three of the accounts disclose deficits and three show excesses of receipts over expenditure. Periodical inspections of the farms are carried out by officers of the Department of Agriculture and their reports are available to me.” 484. Mr. Ó Cadhla. — The only appreciable deficit was in the account of Coláiste Brighde, Donegal. It amounted to £580 on an expenditure of £2,290. Deputy J. Brennan.—To what do you attribute that? Mr. Ó Muirthe.—Attached to the College in Donegal is a farm of 135 acres, 65 acres of which are arable. Apparently the land is very wet and the soil is acid. Notwithstanding the best efforts of the Steward through the application of lime, he has not yet succeeded in getting the land into decent arable condition. The result is that the crops are on the whole poor and the feeding value is also poor. He has difficulty with his cattle. No matter how well he feeds them on the crops produced on the farm the milk yield is low. He was advised by the Agricultural Inspector to get a tractor and equipment because that would save him a considerable amount of men’s time. He has got that equipment now. The tractor was bought in this year. He has no horses now. In time, with the application of the lime to the soil and with the use of other fertilisers, he hopes to get the land into good condition. You will remember that this particular year was a very wet one. It is difficult enough to save crops on an upland farm but in boggy, wet soil, it is exceedingly difficult. Deputy Sheldon.—You would want to consult the chairman of the local committee of agriculture. 485. Chairman.—Are the deficits very big?—No, except in this particular case. The College at Ballyvourney has only one acre of land. They have to buy all their materials. They have only three-quarters of an acre at Coláiste Móibhí, Shankill, and they have to buy a good deal. The other colleges have fairly good farms. 486. Do the accounts take into consideration the produce consumed?—Yes. That is allowed for. 487. Chairman.—Paragraph 46 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:— “Subhead B—Examinations. In the course of audit a number of cases were observed in which payments of fees and expenses in excess of the amounts properly allowable were made to superintendents of examinations. I was informed that the amounts overpaid were being recovered and that steps were being taken to avoid similar overpayments in future.” Mr. Ó Cadhla.—A number of relatively small overpayments were shown up on a test check of the expenditure under this subhead. The Accounting Officer informed me that every effort will be made in future to ensure greater care in the examination of claims. I must say that in the course of the current audit no such irregularities have, so far, been disclosed. 488. Mr. Ó Muirthe.—Might I expand what the Comptroller and Auditor General has said? This work was done in a very great rush in July which is a holiday period. At that particular time, the Accounts Branch staff were very busy in connection with all the examinations endeavouring to get out the payments to superintendents. They had very little time. These overpayments were really due to rushed work. We have now made an arrangement whereby there will not be such a rush in the future. We have to find out whether superintendents are really entitled to all the money they seem to be entitled to, due to what we call culpable neglect and errors on their part. It is the same with examiners. We have now arranged that we will have more time to check these accounts. 489. Chairman.—How do you select the superintendents?—We are very careful in the matter of selection. They are very carefully selected on the recommendation of our inspectors. 490. Chairman.—Paragraph 47 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General is as follows:— “Subhead C.3—Van and Boat Services. Provision is made under this subhead for the payment of contributions towards the cost of the conveyance of children to national schools, subject to certain conditions relating to the ages of the children and the daily average number conveyed. I have communicated with the Accounting Officer regarding payments made in certain cases in which the required conditions did not appear to have been fulfilled.” 491. Mr. Ó Cadhla.—Two cases came under notice in which the returns furnished by the managers of the schools containing the ages of the children and the distances they had to travel to school appeared to be inaccurate. In one of these I am satisfied that there is no actual loss to public funds but in the other case payment of a State contribution was sanctioned by the Department of Finance on the condition that a daily average of 15 eligible children would be conveyed to school for each quarter of the year. A departmental investigation of the claims furnished by the managers revealed that children who were ineligible were included in the numbers and that the daily average of eligible children since the service commenced fell below the required average of 15. The Department has sought the sanction of the Department of Finance to reduce retrospectively the daily average required from 15 to 8 eligible children so that the claims paid may be regularised. The account under review includes contributions amounting to £230 in respect of the service in question and £880 has been contributed since the service was initiated. I think there were two further cases in which sums amounting to £48 were recovered. 492. Mr. Ó Muirthe.—Two cases in Wexford. We have reported those to the Comptroller and Auditor General. There are two kinds of transport service. We have one rather important one by which Protestant children are conveyed to schools under Protestant management. These operate under an agreement as between the Department and the Church Representative Body. We deal with the Church Representative Body and give a certain amount per child. It was £5 but it has now gone up to £10 because of the increase in the cost of transport. We contributed half the total cost subject to a maximum state grant of £4,800 a year. The accounts show that the Church Representative Body and the local bodies associated with the transport service contributed more than twice that £4,800. It was only in one year they contributed less. We had negotiations with them and came to an arrangement last year whereby we would cut out completely the £4,800 a year maximum and contribute half the cost of the services. With regard to the other services, these are scattered all over the country and are organised by local managers, generally parish priests. The number of children, the distances, etc., are checked by our inspectors. Sometimes, however, it is not as easy to check them as we would wish but we have made arrangements now whereby a check will be carried out at least twice a year and our accounts branch informed of the number of children, their ages and the distances from school so that in the head office, if the number of children conveyed seems to be coming down to the minimum, we shall be able to get the inspectors to check. Chairman.—Have you got the approval of the Department of Finance for that?— We have written for it but it is purely an office matter in order to ensure that there will be no irregularities. 493. Deputy Bartley.—What are the conditions in respect of van and boat services? What I mean is, do you require the same number of children to be available for boat services as for the road services?—No. There is only a small number of children involved in the boat services. In regard to the van services, the number of children varies in relation to the need. Sometimes the minimum is 8 and at other times it may be 10, 14 or 16. Deputy J. Brennan.—That is in regard to taking people off islands?—Yes. In conjunction with the boat service? —Yes. 494. Deputy Bartley.—I am not aware in the West in any event of any service that combines both road and boat. It is either boat or van service. The boat takes them to the mainland. Is it necessary in any case to provide a road service for those who have been brought to the mainland by boat? Is there any such case? If there is, it would double the cost of the service. Chairman.—Have you any such cases? —No, not to my knowledge. Deputy Bartley.—I am not aware of any either. 495. Deputy Mrs. Crowley.—Is the minimum of eight a hard and fast minimum?—No. It could be under eight?—Yes. Deputy J. Brennan.—They must be under certain ages?—Between certain ages. 496. Deputy Bartley.—I understood the Comptroller and Auditor General to say that there should be an average of 15 over a quarterly period. Is that a daily average?—Yes. Deputy Sheldon.—In that particular case. Deputy Bartley.—How do you mean? Deputy Sheldon.—With regard to that particular school the number was supposed to be 15. It fell below the average and they have been asked to make it eight instead of 15. Fifteen was too high in relation to the facts. Chairman.—Deputies will address the Chair and not carry on discussions by way of asides. Deputy Bartley.—When I am told that the number should be 15 in respect of a particular school, I am a bit at sea as to what Deputy Sheldon means. Is it a school at which there is an average daily attendance of 15 or children brought by transport? Chairman.—Fifteen brought by transport, Deputy. 497. Deputy Bartley.—I understood that if you had ten pupils—consisting of some under ten who had to travel two miles or more and some between 10 and 14 who had to travel three miles or more —you could operate the service. Am I correct in that assumption?—There is no magic about the number 10. The service would operate on the application of the manager—I am not talking about the ordinary service but a particular service —and the number is not static. If the manager applies and says there are nine children between six and fourteen who live outside the statutory distance from school, that these little children cannot attend school because the roads are bad and they would be drenched by the rain, his application is considered. We may approve if we can get a suitable contractor on an appropriate basis with regard to State contribution and local contribution. We may fix the average number at 10, 9, 8, or 7, depending on the number of children between the ages of 6 and 14. Deputy Bartley.—Then I suggest that the scheme of transport has been sensibly amended since first brought in. My recollection of official replies is that there was a fixed number of miles for each of the two age groups. 498. Chairman. — Experience teaches. The new system will prevent irregular claims arising in the future?—I hope so. 499. Deputy Bartley.—Has the Department made any comparison between the cost of operating these services and the total cost of maintaining schools in places where schools have been closed and transport provided instead. That information would help everyone concerned to assess the merits of the scheme much more intelligently. Deputy Sheldon.—With respect, I suggest that that is policy. Chairman.—Yes, I think the Deputy is hinging on policy. That would be more appropriately raised elsewhere. Deputy Bartley.—It is a first cousin to policy. I am asking the question with regard to sums of money to be provided from the public purse in relation to education. Chairman.—The Minister would be in a better position to deal with that. Deputy J. Brennan.—I was thinking of asking the same question. Deputy Sheldon.—That does not put it in order. 500. Deputy J. Brennan.—Most of the transport which we know of is necessitated by the amalgamation of schools due to falling averages. We all know borderline cases where we wonder if it would not be more economical to maintain the school, even if the average falls. Chairman.—That is policy, I submit. Deputy Bartley.—I am afraid Deputy Brennan is walking into Deputy Sheldon’s trap. Deputy Sheldon.—It is not Deputy Sheldon’s trap. I did not make the rules of order. Deputy Bartley.—Deputy Brennan is saying “should.” I am only asking for factual information, on two relative costs. I am not saying what should be done. Chairman.—In the case of schools, that is policy. I do not think the Accounting Officer would be entitled to give it. 501. Deputy Bartley. — Would you accept my assurance that I have not suggested what should or should not be done? Chairman. — I know, but you are infringing on policy. Deputy Bartley.—With all respect, I was asking for information of cost in respect of two related matters. Chairman. — I respectfully suggest to the Deputy he should raise that matter on the Estimate in the House. Deputy Bartley.—I can do that in relation to policy but I imagine that the information will have to be provided and if we have to go the roundabout way of the Dáil I do not mind. 502. Chairman.—Paragraph 48 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General continues:— “Subhead D—Superannuation, etc., of Teachers. Teachers’ pensions and other awards under the superannuation schemes were formerly computed by reference to average annual salary for the three years preceding the date of retirement. Paragraph 5 of the National School Teachers’ Superannuation (Amendment) Scheme, 1953 (S.I. No. 255 of 1953), dated 14 July, 1953, provides for the substitution of scale salary at date of retirement for average annual salary in the case of teachers who were compelled to retire on grounds of age or ill-health on or after 31 December, 1951. Included in the charge to the subhead are payments totalling approximately £49,300 in respect of arrears of pensions and other awards arising out of the revised basis of calculation.” Mr. Ó Cadhla.—This paragraph is for information only. 503. Chairman.—Did you make provision for these payments in the Estimate? —Yes. Wherever there was a deficit we made provision in the following year. 504. Chairman.—Paragraphs 49 and 50 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General read:— “Subhead E—Appropriations-in-Aid. 49. Fees payable in respect of pupils attending preparatory colleges are fixed by reference to a scale, approved by the Department of Finance, which has regard to the income of the parents and to the number of children in the family, special consideration being given to those cases where high rents or other abnormal charges have to be met. I have asked for information in certain cases in which the fees assessed appeared to be less than those warranted by the circumstances. 50. The average fee paid by the students in the year under review was £21 4s. 3d. as compared with £20 2s. 1d. for the previous year.” Mr. Ó Cadhla.—The full fee for the year is £50, but it has been the practice to admit students at reduced fees where the family circumstances warrant a reduction. I have been informed that the scale of fees approved by the Department of Finance in 1949 had become quite out of date—in view of the considerable increase in the cost of living—in so far as it could be applied in assessing preparatory college fees payable by persons in receipt of fixed incomes?—The question of revising the scale of fees is receiving the consideration of the Department. 505. Chairman.—Have you yet got a revised scale?—I regret that the answer to that at the moment is “no” but we have written about it. This scale was fixed in 1949 and in our view it is out of date. We intend to ask the Department of Finance for sanction for a more appropriate scale of fees in relation to income. 506. Deputy J. Brennan. — Is it not true that the Department recoups itself by deductions from the salaries of teachers who are thus assisted by lower fees, after the teacher qualifies?—I do not think so. I do not think we interfere with the teacher’s salary. It is purely a matter between the parent and the Department. In cases where students are admitted on a lower fee, or sometimes no fee, they have to make that up in later years by accepting a reduction in their salaries over a period?—I think the Deputy may be referring to those who go into training colleges, not preparatory colleges. In the training colleges we can accept a reduced fee on condition that the fee is recouped when the teacher is placed. That is recouped over a period of years and does not lean too heavily on the teacher. 507. Deputy Bartley.—The other type is where a pupil gets into a preparatory college but does not enter the teaching profession. If he gets a place in a preparatory college with a view to becoming a teacher but subsequently changes his mind and goes to some other activity, is it not so that the Department can recoup from that pupil some or all of the cost which the State has incurred in respect of his education in the preparatory college? — That is quite true. There is contract entered into between the pupil and his parent and the Department. 508. Deputy Bartley.—The Accounting Officer referred to an appropriate change in the fees. Is this to be upward or downward? Deputy Sheldon.—Which way do you think the cost of living is going? Deputy Bartley.—It is because of that very fact that I put the question? — I think the view of the Department is that the income of the parent should be raised in relation to the fee. Suppose a parent with one child has an income of £250 a year—that parent is supposed to pay the full fee. On the present scale we are hoping to raise that income level. I think the direction of the Department’s application would be on lines that would meet Deputy Bartley’s view. In other words, you will assess the parent’s income at its true value rather than its face value?—I do not know we would go so far as that, but we hope to move in that direction. I doubt if we would be allowed to go so far. 509. Chairman.—I take it that when an application is received for a reduction of the fee, there is always an investigation? —Yes. 510. Who investigates?—We have our local agents, we have inspectors who know a good deal about the circumstances of the parents, we have local managers of the schools and we have the Revenue Commissioners. 511. On subhead A.1 — Training Colleges — I notice that the provision of £74,500 is over £7,000 greater than 1952/53. Is this due to a greater number of grants or a greater number of teachers? — It is due entirely to the increased number of teachers in training. 512. On subhead A.2 — Repayable Advances of Training College Fees to Students—do you apply a means test in these cases?—Yes. It is the only way we have of determining whether the pupil is able to pay his fee or not. 513. How do you recover these advances?—When the person is placed in a school, a certain amount of the annual salary is deducted until the cost of his training has been repaid. 514. Deputy J. Brennan. — If the teacher takes up other employment do you still collect?—If we can. The only people we are sure of are those who enter the public service. 515. Chairman. — On subhead A.4— Grants to Colleges providing Courses in Irish for Primary Teachers — were any courses arranged by the colleges?—These are courses for national teachers in the service. It happened in this year that no national teachers did a course in a college which warranted fees being paid to the college on their behalf. 516. Deputy J. Brennan.—On subhead C.6—Grants towards the Cost of Heating, etc., of Schools and Cleansing of Out-Offices—is there any recognised figure or percentage for the local contribution in the case of heating of schools; in other words, what amount must the manager contribute towards heating? — He must contribute at least half. Our grant is based on a certain amount for a particular category of school. There is an amount for heating and cleaning and a certain amount for the cleansing of the out-offices. If the manager provides in cash for these services an amount equal to the maximum State grant, we give him the full grant. A manager sometimes gets fuel in kind and spends cash on cleaning. Provided the total amount of cash expended does not exceed our maximum we make the full grant. Of course, our grant, I must admit, is not very generous. 517. How is the heating and cleaning supervised? — We get reports from our inspectors as to whether schools are adequately heated and cleaned. There is a vast difference between schools in this matter. You get one school properly heated and you get another that is very poorly heated?—You have a manager there. 518. Chairman. — On subhead C.7— Bonus to Parents or Guardians of certain Pupils in the Gaeltacht and Breac-Ghaeltacht — what are the qualifications required to receive a grant under this subhead? — They are laid down in the regulations. First of all, the children must be Irish speaking. They must have Irish in the home and when they come to school for the first time, their command of the Irish language should be such as to enable an independent inspector to assure himself that Irish is the language of the home. Finally, they must attend school regularly. 519. Deputy J. Brennan. — Does this relate to the Deontas? — This is the £5 Deontas. The same strict rules do not apply in the Breac-Ghaeltacht? — Anybody to whom the £5 grant is awarded in respect of a particular child must conform to the conditions laid down. You must be satisfied that the Irish language is the spoken language of the home?—Yes. 520. Deputy Mrs. Crowley. — On subhead C.8—Holiday Scholarships in Gaeltacht—(Grant-in-Aid)—why were smaller numbers sent this year?—Because instead of three committees functioning there were only two. One committee from Dundalk lapsed in this particular year. Expenditure depends on the number of local committees that are working. We allowed for three; only two were in being. 521. Chairman. — On subhead C.9— Grants towards the Cost of Free School Books for Necessitous Children—is there a means test under this scheme?—Yes. 522. Deputy J. Brennan. — Does this apply only to specific areas?—No, it is general in its application, but there are special provisions for what I may call poor areas in the City of Dublin and for the Gaeltacht. 523. Is there any means by which provisions under this heading are brought to the notice of the children or the parents? —It is in the addendum to the rules and it is publicised to the schools. This scheme has been in operation for some years now and I think it should be pretty well known. 524. Deputy Sheldon. — On subhead C.C.—Holiday and School Scholarships in Gaeltacht—I would like Mr. Ó Muirthe to expand his somewhat short note. He just mentions that he got authority to open it; I do not think it could be there if he did not. The name of it looks as if it is in some way related to subhead C.8. Deputy Bartley. — Subhead C.8 is a Grant-in-Aid to committees. Deputy Sheldon. — I know. In the normal way a special subhead is opened to help a Grant-in-Aid subhead where there is overspending, but in this particular grant there was underspending?— This is a new subhead. It is in connection with the activities of Comhaltas Uladh. Instead of sending children for comparatively short periods, say, four weeks, to the Gaeltacht to learn oral Irish by living amongst the people, they have a scheme whereby they send children for six months, so the children actually go to school in the Gaeltacht. 525. With regard to subhead D— Superannuation, etc., of Teachers — and subhead D.D. — Ex-gratia Payments to certain Retired Teachers—I waited until now rather than make the point on the paragraph. Between them they show a substantial overspending, somewhere around £64,000. Does Mr. Ó Muirthe consider that it would have been more advisable to have asked for a Supplementary Estimate on this? Most of it arose in July of the accounting year. It is fairly early in the year?—This is in connection with the ex-gratia payments. Yes, and superannuation? — The two things are tied up. These ex-gratia payments to teachers who retired before the 1st January, 1950, were a special payment conceded by the Government and it was paid in three lots, a third of the amount in the first year, another third in the second year and the final third in the third year. Payments not exceeding £50 all went into the first year. It was difficult to estimate the actual total amount involved. We were wrong in our estimation in the beginning; hence although the expenditure is put at lower than a third of the total estimated expenditure, in this particular year it was very much higher. I do not know about the Supplementary Estimate. 526. It was really in relation to subhead D rather than subhead D.D. I was speaking. I take it the overspending on subhead D arose through a change made in July, 1953; that was subsequent to the submission of the Estimate. I am just thinking in a case like that when the Dáil had passed the Estimate and something new cropped up, it might have been more appropriate to have mentioned it to the Dáil by way of Supplementary Estimate. Deputy J. Brennan. — I suppose it would be a six-mark question to ask why the year 1950 was taken? Chairman.—You are infringing there again. The Minister will explain that. 527. Deputy Bartley. — What method was adopted in calculating the amount of the payment in each case under subhead D.D.?—That was in accordance with the kind of schedule; it was full credit for 15 years and a reduced payment for the service going back. 528. Chairman. — On subhead E — Appropriations-in-Aid—under the heading “Training of Teachers,” item No. 3 is Recovery of training college fees advanced to necessitous students — how is it you received so much more than you estimated for?—It is probably due to the fact that we have more teachers placed in positions in schools following increased entry into the training colleges. It is not easy to estimate accurately the amount to be recovered in fees. It depends how soon the teacher will get a post after qualification. Sometimes teachers seek higher qualifications before actually taking up teaching. VOTE 41—SECONDARY EDUCATION.Labhrás Ó Muirthe further examined.529. Chairman. — With regard to subhead A.5—Bonus for Choirs and Orchestras—how was this bonus fixed? — It depends on the category of the choir or orchestra. For a full orchestra or for a choir of so many voices we give so much, depending on the report of our examiner. Then for an intermediate one with fewer numbers, we give a little less and for the preparatory, there is a smaller bonus still. I am glad to say the number of choirs and orchetras is gradually increasing over the years. 530. Deputy Bartley.—On subhead B.1 —Incremental Salary Grant — could we get some information as to the relationship between this subhead and subhead A.1 — Capitation Grant (including Teachers’ Salaries Grant)?—A.1 relates merely to the capitation grants given to schools. They are paid on a capitation basis in relation to the number of recognised pupils. B.1 is simply the incremental salaries paid to the teachers. An increasing number of pupils from year to year needs an increasing number of teachers, so both Votes show signs of increasing every year. 531. Deputy Bartley.—The word “incremental” in subhead B.1 refers to salary and not to the number of pupils? —There is a relationship between the number of teachers in receipt of incremental salaries and the number of pupils. There is a relationship?—There is, yes. Quite apart from an increase in the number of pupils, this increment takes place but is affected by an increase in the number of pupils in the school? — Yes, because that brings more teachers into the incremental range. 532. Quite apart from the bringing on of more teachers, supposing the number of teachers remains fixed, it is possible the number of pupils might increase in a school without the necessity arising to increase the number of teachers?—That is so. The increase in the number of pupils would affect this item under B.I, as an addition to the ordinary increment to which the teacher would be entitled?— No, sir, I do not think that could happen. What could happen is, if the number of recognised pupils in a school went down a teacher might fall out of the incremental quota. He may lose his employment?—He may not lose his employment but he would lose his increment. But he would not suffer a diminution of salary? — He certainly would because the number of recognised teachers in the incremental category depends on the number of recognised pupils. 533. Deputy Sheldon. — The only way he could be safeguarded against loss would be if the owners of the school were able to compensate him?—Exactly or, if it happened to be a school under a community of monks or nuns, a monk or nun would drop out of the quota and leave the lay man or lay woman there. That is generally what happens. 534. Deputy J. Brennan.—In regard to subhead B.2—Allowances in Aid of Rent —does this apply to all secondary schools?—Yes, sir—all the male teachers who are married. 535. Deputy Bartley.—Is it an arrangement for teachers living in places where rents are abnormally high?—Not necessarily. It is simply a rent allowance to married teachers. And every married secondary teacher is entitled to it?—Yes. Of course, the rent allowance would depend on where he is living. That is exactly what I meant when I asked did it refer to places where rents are abnormally high?—The amount given by way of allowance depends on where the teacher is living. A teacher living in Dublin or Cork will get a higher allowance than a teacher living in Skibbereen. But they all get it?—They all get it. 536. Could we have some explanation of the meaning of item No. 2 — Appropriations-in-Aid—Sum payable out of Local Taxation (Customs and Excise) Duties? —That is there since the very beginning of the intermediate education system in Ireland—1878. It was a sum of money taken from the excise duty on whiskey and devoted to the secondary education of pupils. It is there since. It is commonly known as whiskey money. Deputy Bartley.—A very good provision. 537. Chairman. — With regard to the account at the end of the Vote concerning the Erasmus Smith endowment, has the new Abbey school, Tipperary, been finished?—Yes, it was opened. 538. What was the total expenditure? —I think it was round about £60,000 odd. VOTE 42—TECHNICAL INSTRUCTION.Labhrás Ó Muirthe further examined.539. Chairman. — Paragraph 51 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads as follows:— “Non-voted Services. The Mary A. Hardiman Bequest. Appended to the Appropriation Account is an account of a bequest by the late Mrs. Mary A. Hardiman amounting to £19,440 for the promotion and support of vocational education in Ireland. As shown in the account, this bequest was invested in 4½ per cent. National Loan, the amount acquired being £20,042. It is administered under a deed establishing a trust of which the Minister for Education and the Minister for Finance are the trustees.” 540. Deputy Bartley.—On the question of scholarships, one would expect that this particular subhead would increase rather than decrease, in view of the larger number of vocational schools now in the country. Deputy Sheldon.—It has increased. The year before it was much less—£500 less. Chairman. — It has actually increased but the expenditure this year was less than granted. Mr. Ó Muirthe. — These are scholarships to enable students to qualify as domestic economy instructresses. Deputy Bartley. — It applies only to domestic economy? Deputy Sheldon.—I notice that in the current Estimate it started to go back again. Mr. Ó Muirthe. — It includes allowances as well and allowances are based on a means test. There is always variation in allowances when there is a means test. 541. Chairman.—In regard to subhead B—Annual Grants to Vocational Education Committees—what degree of control is exercised by the Department regarding the enrolment of pupils?—The pupils in vocational schools must be such as will benefit by the education given there, so that they must have reached a certain standard of general education and must be of a certain age. Normally, before admission to a vocational school, a pupil must have reached the age of 13 and must have spent at least one year in the sixth standard of the national school. I think there is a relationship between what I may call the capacity of the pupil to handle tools and the age. A young lad of 12 might not be too sure of himself in handling edged tools. Whether that enters into the consideration or not, I do not know but what does enter into the consideration is that he must have what we call a fair standard of education as indicated by a year in the sixth standard of a national school or, alternatively, he should have the primary leaving certificate. He must be 13 at least and generally the age is 14. There is no upper age limit?—No; they go to the vocational school as long as their parents or they themselves wish. 542. Deputy J. Brennan.—There is an increase in that grant of almost £56,000 over the previous year. Was this allocated on the same basis as has been the practice in the past? Was there any change in the system of allocation to the Gaeltacht areas? — I do not know whether the Deputy is referring to the new arrangement by which there will be a certain relief brought to certain counties, including those counties in which there are Gaeltachts, whereby there will be increased grants over and above the normal given to those counties depending on the rate taken by all the individual councils. In other words, instead of getting £ for £, these counties will get £2 from the State for every £1 they raise by rates. Deputy J. Brennan.—We hope so. 543. Chairman.—In regard to subhead C—Training of Teachers — where is the training carried out?—Well, the training of domestic economy instructresses is carried out in the two colleges that we have in Blackrock and Sligo, and the training of teachers in metal work and woodwork and so forth is carried out in various centres, largely in Dublin and recently in Coláiste Garman, Wexford. These courses last for a period of two years. That is for the actual training of teachers. Of course, the student teachers are carefully selected and must have reached a certain standard of skill in their own particular avocation. In their selection special attention is paid to personality and general suitability. They are trained for two years under competent skilled instructors and part of that training is in the technique of teaching. 544. Deputy Bartley. — In regard to subhead D.1—Grants under Section 109 of the Vocational Education Act, 1930— for what specific purpose does Section 109 provide?—It provides for all those colleges and institutions which are not directly under Vocational Educational Committees such as residential schools of domestic economy. I think there is a list of them given in the Estimate. 545. Chairman.—In regard to subhead E—Grants for Drawing and Manual Instruction in Miscellaneous Schools— these grants amount to a very small sum —£60. Why is there such a small demand?—It relates to a particular school or schools and there are very few schools of the kind that would require that money. I think that money is for a reformatory. 546. Deputy J. Brennan.—Would this money be payable to primary schools for putting these subjects on the curriculum? —That has not arisen yet, but I doubt if any expenditure under the primary Vote could be paid for out of this particular Vote. Deputy Sheldon. — The provision is down to £30 this year. 547. Chairman. — With regard to the note on subhead G, could you say what was the cause of the delay in assessing certain pensions referred to?—There is sometimes delay in trying to arrive at the actual amount of pensionable service. This particular scheme for vocational education goes back only as far as the 1930 Act and it is possible that there were teachers with service before that and the thing is to assess whether that service was pensionable or not. Deputy J. Brennan. — It is easy to understand. VOTE 43—SCIENCE AND ART.Labhrás Ó Muirthe further examined.548. Chairman.—Paragraph 52 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:— “Subhead B.10—Grants to Colleges providing Courses in Irish for Persons other than Teachers. Under a scheme approved by the Department of Finance grants are payable to Irish colleges in respect of classes in Irish organised by these colleges for persons other than teachers. I have inquired regarding payment of a grant of £134 in respect of classes which were organised by a body other than an Irish college.” Mr. Ó Cadhla.—I have been informed that the grants in question were paid in respect of a course conducted by the Christian Brothers in two of the Irish Colleges. While the regulations provide for the payment of grants to the College authorities only, payment was made exceptionally to the Christian Brothers who undertook to pay them to the College. I understand that a similar course was conducted in 1954 when the grants were paid direct to the College. It is really a small point. 549. Mr. Ó Muirthe.—As a kind of expansion of what the Comptroller and Auditor General has said, these were pupils of Christian Brothers’ schools whose normal language in the school and school grounds is Irish. The Brothers, in their desire to advance the knowledge of oral Irish, arranged with the conductors of the College to have a course for their boys before the normal opening of the College. The organisation is known as Ógra Éireann and the money was paid to the Brother in charge, but he handed it over to the College, so that it is regularised now, as the Comptroller and Auditor General has pointed out. Deputy Bartley.—All the persons who attended were potential teachers? — Not necessarily. They were all Christian Brothers?— Christian Brothers’ boys, that is, pupils of Christian Brothers’ schools. 550. Chairman. — Paragraph 53 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:— “Subhead B.16—Grants to Irish Colleges in the Gaeltacht. The charge to the subhead includes a grant to Comhaltas Uladh of the Gaelic League of £2,500 which, with the sum of £2,500 referred to in paragraph 51 of the last report, makes a total grant of £5,000 towards the erection of a hall at Ros Goill, County Donegal, to be used for the furtherance of the Irish language. A sum of £2,500 was paid to Comhaltas Uladh towards the cost of providing an Irish College at Teelin, County Donegal. It is understood that the cost of this work has been estimated at £10,000 and that a further grant has been approved by the Department of Finance. The balance of the charge to the subhead, £228, was paid to Comhaltas Choláiste Múinteoireachta na Mumhan. This amount together with the grant of £2,272 paid in the previous year brought the total grant towards the cost of purchasing and adapting premises as a residential Irish College at Ballingeary, County Cork, to £2,500.” The balance of the cost of providing these Colleges was, I take it, found from private sources?—Undoubtedly. 551. Does the Department exercise any control over the courses conducted in the Colleges?—Except over those courses for which we partially pay. The Colleges are independent. When they look for a grant from the Department for particular courses for particular boys, we supervise them. 552. With regard to subhead B.1— Publications in Irish—there was a fairly substantial excess of expenditure over the provision in the subhead. What is the general position regarding the sale of these publications? — As to the sale, I could not say, but I can say that this extra expenditure was due to the greater number of books produced. Deputy Sheldon.—It is reflected in the Appropriations-in-Aid, too. 553. Chairman. — With regard to subhead B.4 — University Scholarships—the saving on this subhead is stated to have been due to non-renewal of some scholarships. What happened there? — Candidates did not qualify. There are certain conditions laid down for candidates who receive these scholarships. They must prove their worth in the succeeding examinations in the University. If they do not succeed in getting honours in two subjects at least in their first University examination, the scholarship is not renewed. I might put it this way: these are select candidates who have done very well and who have shown evidence of great ability and it is not too much to expect them to continue to show that ability in the University when they go there. 554. Under subhead B.5 — Irish Committee of Historical Sciences (Grant-in-Aid)—what is the cause of the delay in this case?—In connection with the publication of the History of the Famine? Yes?—I am told that it will probably be published next spring. I would not like to elaborate on what the causes of the delay are. I am not in a position to do so. 555. What was the provision of £1,525 in subhead B.11—Centenary Commemoration of Thomas Davis and the Young Ireland Movement — intended for? — A statue of Thomas Davis. 556. What projects are now in hand?— There are two other small things. There is a plaque in Baggot Street to be kept in condition and then there is a scholarship, but the main expenditure there is in relation to a statue of Thomas Davis. It turned out that the statue was much too expensive. Mr. Campbell, the artist, produced a model and his estimate for the statue was far above what was provided in the Estimate — four times or thereabouts. 557. Deputy Bartley. — On subhead B.15—Grants to Periodicals published in Irish and Newspapers publishing Current News in Irish—what in general are the conditions referred to in the note?— There are several publications in Irish with which the Deputy, I am sure, will be very familiar—Comhar, Inniu, Feasta, Ar Aghaidh and An tUltach. 558. I am not referring at all to all-Irish papers, but to the papers which are mainly in English? — If I may refer to papers all in Irish first, there was a saving in connection with the publication of Inniu, due to the fact that the conductors did not produce issues of six pages for a certain portion of the year. If they produce six pages in the periodical, they get a higher grant. With regard to the payment to the ordinary newspapers circulating in the Gaeltacht and elsewhere, they have nothing at all for the first column and a half, 30/- a column between one and a half and three columns and 40/- over three columns, but no paper will get more than £28 a month, so that the references to the condition not being fulfilled relates to the columns. Deputy Sheldon.—I take it that you watch the size of the type and see to it that somebody does not get a column extended to one and a half columns by the use of bigger type. 559. Chairman.—How many periodicals are availing of this grant?—They are all availing themselves of this grant. Deputy J. Brennan.—They are all provincial newspapers. 560. Chairman. — With regard to the sale of photographic reproductions, I take it that the National Gallery is responsible?—They had one set of photographic reproductions and the Museum does it in a more limited way. Is there a fair element of profit attached to it?—I could not answer that. 561. Deputy J. Brennan.—With regard to the fees for genealogical researches, does that refer to people having their family trees looked up?—I think the fee is derived largely from visitors from across the pond who come looking for their ancestors, their escutcheon and so on. They seem to take more interest in that kind of thing than the ordinary people of Ireland. VOTE 44—REFORMATORY AND INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS.Labhrás Ó Muirthe further examined.562. Deputy Bartley. — On subhead B —Industrial Schools—what is the amount of the capitation grant now payable to industrial schools?—The capitation grant per head? Yes? — 15/- from the State and 15/- from the local authority—30/- per head. VOTE 45—DUBLIN INSTITUTE FOR ADVANCED STUDIES.Labhrás Ó Muirthe further examined.563. Chairman.—With regard to subhead A—Annual Grants under Section 25 (1) of the Institute for Advanced Studies Act, 1940—are these grants accounted for in detail?—These are grants given to the Institute. First of all, they make out their estimate for the year and then these grants are given to them by the Department on demand. 564. Mr. Ó Cadhla. — I might say I audit the accounts of the Institute, but certain difficulties have arisen in the preparation of the accounts for the past five years; I hope very shortly to be in a position to certify them and to forward them to the Minister for Education. 565. Deputy Bartley.—Is the position of senior professor, referred to in the note, to be left permanently unfilled?—I would not say that. It is a matter for the Council and for the sanction of the appropriate Ministers. It may be filled any time. 566. Chairman.—On subhead B—Grant under Section 16 (5) of the Institute for Advanced Studies Act, 1940 — did the Institute acquire new buildings during the year or was the grant expended on adaptations of the existing premises?— It was probably expended on the adaptation of the existing buildings. I could not be quite sure of that. I will look it up for you.* The witness withdrew. The Committee adjourned. |
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