Committee Reports > List of Committees > Dáil > 1955 > Committee of Public Accounts > Report - Appropriation Accounts 1953 - 1954

MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA

(Minutes of Evidence)

Déardaoin, 1 Nollaig, 1955.

Thursday, 1st December, 1955.

The Committee sat at 11 a.m.

Liam Ó Cadhla (An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste) and Mr. M. Breathnach (An Roinn Airgeadais) called and examined.

VOTE 24—STATIONERY OFFICE.

Mr. J. B. Carr called and examined.

907. Chairman.—Paragraph 22 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:—

“The result of the stocktaking of stores carried out at 31 March, 1952, has been furnished to me. It reveals surpluses to the value of £1,158, and deficiencies of £1,239 which are attributed mainly to accounting errors. The net results of the stocktakings carried out in March, 1953, and March, 1954, are not yet available and I have inquired as to the present position.”

Mr. Ó Cadhla.—I have no recent information regarding the results of the stocktakings carried out in 1953 and 1954. Most of the discrepancies arise under the head of paper, and I understand there is a very large number of accounts under this particular head?

Mr. Carr.—That is so. We have had a recent check in connection with 1954-55, that is the stocktaking for the 31st March last. We found that apart from printing papers, the position is satisfactory. We had a surplus of about £80 on ordinary stationery stores and a deficiency of roughly £75 on paper other than printing papers, showing that the errors are entirely on printing papers. From our point of view it is unsatisfactory to have any errors, but it is satisfactory that it should be in the heavy paper because heavy paper is something that cannot very easily go astray. There is no loss of stores—that is the result of our stocktaking. Whilst we have not come to finality regarding previous stocktakings, we have reduced the discrepancies very considerably. We hope to get the whole thing completed and we will be reporting to the Comptroller and Auditor General as soon as possible after that.

908. Deputy A. Barry.—What proportion of the stocks held would the material to the value of £1,158 be? Is it small?

Mr. Carr.—The total would be about £247,000.

Deputy A. Barry.—Then it is less than 1 per cent.

909. Deputy Sheldon.—The stock of paper in 1952 would have been much greater?—In that particular year, yes. On 31st March, 1953, there was about £227,000 for paper and other stores amounted to about £35,000. Our stocks are very much below that now. In March, 1954, the stock of paper was £168,000. It was high previously because that was the time we were inclined to buy in reserve stocks—in connection with the Korean War, I think. It would have been pretty high on 31st March, 1952. On 31st March, 1953, there was £227,000 on paper alone.

910. Chairman. — How many varieties of paper do you carry in stock? — We have between 300 and 400 varieties of printing papers. Then we have small issues, papers other than printing papers —duplicating papers, drawing papers and so on; we have 200 of those. So in paper alone, we have well over 500 qualities.

911. Deputy A. Barry. — Might I ask you to obtain from the Comptroller and Auditor General the reason? Is there a practical or understandable reason why the results of the March, 1953, stocktaking would not be available?

Mr. Ó Cadhla.—I have not been informed by the Accounting Officer of the reasons for the delay.

Deputy A. Barry. — It seems straightforward stock to deal with. It should be dealt with more rapidly than that?

Mr. Carr.—The actual reason is that there have been other matters occupying the Stationery Office for the last few years. Last year when I was before the Committee I explained changes which had been taking place in our contractual procedure. We have well over 100 running contracts. Some of these are rather voluminous documents running up to eight printed pages. As these fell in, we decided to change the form of contract, specification and so on. That was one change we carried out. Then we made changes in accounting procedure to enable us to dispose rapidly of accounts. We also carried out changes in actual supply and issue. All those things would eventually affect stock control. Consequently we decided that stock control would follow after those things. In fact we had not time to get down to it. Now we are down to it and propose to introduce a new system in the form of new demand, new type of ledger, method of recording, method of checking stores, etc. We believe that after this year those errors, even if they do arise, will be very quickly located and put right. That is the real reason why we have not been able to tackle the thing. There have been a lot of changes of personnel in the Stationery Office in the last few years. Dealing with our type of stores, particularly paper, a man who is familiar with all types of paper is naturally the best type of person to deal with the ledgers. He will spot errors very quickly. These are the principal reasons.

912. Deputy A. Barry.—Could we have an idea of the gross value in money of the output of the Stationery Office, the value of the work they do?

Chairman.—That figure, the gross turn over, is one we will come to later in the account.

913. Deputy Sheldon.—I take it that stock it taken every year and that it is the reconcilement that is delayed?—Yes. The stock is taken in the last week of March; then we make a trial balance from the ledgers. It is the discrepancy between the two that is the cause of the trouble.

914. Chairman.—For the purpose of accounting for issues, what unit do you adopt? Is it weight or volume?—In the case of paper, we account in reams, quires and sheets. Then we have the specification of paper, the size and the weight, which depend on the quality. In the case of other stores, it may be by gross or by unit.

915. Chairman.—Paragraph 23 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:—

“In August, 1953, the Stationery Office undertook a census of typewriters and other office machinery in use throughout the public service and I have inquired whether the results are yet available.”

Mr. Ó Cadhla. — I was informed in October last that the census had disclosed deficiencies of 78 typewriters and 8 other machines, while 13 typewriters and 2 other machines not recorded as on issue, were not yet identified. I understand that the investigation of these discrepancies is proceeding?

Mr. Carr.—Yes. At the moment, the position is that there are 36 machines not accounted for. Originally, when we took our census, a comparison of the Department’s records and our own disclosed about 178 discrepancies. We have reduced that to 36. Of these 36 machines, 29 are rather old ones. We know that all of them are from 14 years upwards. In fact there is one old warrior that the record says was in the Custom House before the fire. The 29 machines in all are valued at less than £25. We hope to trace the lot in the near future. As soon as we get the figures right, we propose to go to the Departments at regular intervals and ask for an assurance that the records continue to agree with our own and also ask for an assurance that all the machines are in actual use and not surplus to requirements. That relates, of course, to typewriters, duplicators, and so forth.

916. Chairman. — Roughly, how many machines of all kinds have been issued to the service?—In the case of typewriters, duplicators, and so forth, there are slightly over 3,300. Then, of course, there are other types of heavy accounting machines, and so on. I confess I cannot give the actual details of these.

917. In connection, then, with this census of office equipment, typewriters, did you get a certificate from the Departments that none of these machines was surplus to requirements?—We did not get it at the time. We simply asked them to furnish us with the list of machines—typewriters and duplicators— held by them on a particular date. We then started to compare the information which we got from them with the records which we had. We intended, when we had brought the matter to finality, to go after that question. To judge, however, from the demands which we receive for the repair and issue of typewriters, I do not think many can be surplus to requirements in the Departments. However, we will get a certificate from them in the future, with the return, to cover that.

918. Deputy J. Brennan.—Is each section of a Department not obliged to keep an inventory of their stock and equipment, which could easily be checked at a glance?

Mr. Ó Cadhla. — I do not think so. Some years ago it was tried out in connection with Office of Public Works furniture. I think it was discontinued during the war years.

Deputy Sheldon.—It does look as if there was something radically wrong with the system, in view of the discrepancies, and so on.

919. Deputy A. Barry. — If, for instance, typewriters were sold by members of the State Service, how long would it take us to find out that they were missing?—As a result of this census, the Establishment Branch of every Department will have the record of machines. Take, for instance, a Department such as the Department of Defence. There is trouble about 36 machines at the moment and, of these, 31 belong to the Department of Defence. Take an outlying unit down the country such as Haulbowline: well, Haulbowline is fairly big. Take, instead, a small unit. Divisional Headquarters might decide to send out a machine to deal with a job in a hurry and the notification would not be sent up to Parkgate. It is easy, in a big Department like that, to lose track of a particular machine. It is only on an annual check-up that you follow it up.

920. Are the Stationery Office responsible for all such equipment in all Departments or are are they just purchasing and installing the machinery? Is that all they do? Do they only buy and instal the machinery or are they responsible for it afterwards?

Mr. Ó Cadhla.—The machines remain the property of the Stationery Office and the Stationery Office is responsible for maintenance.

921. Deputy Sheldon. — Can the Stationery Office impose on other Departments the checks it feels are needed to keep track of these machines?

Mr. Carr.—Only to the extent of asking for a certificate that the machines are in regular use and are not surplus to requirements. We could not arrange to have a check. In fact, we would have to keep a man in every Department to ensure that every machine there was in regular and daily use.

922. You might get over it by putting a charge on the Department. They might pay more attention if it were charged to their own Votes. What is your view?—We put a life on a machine. If that machine is not kept in proper order, when it comes to us with anything seriously wrong with it we very quickly get after the Department and put the onus on them.

923. Deputy J. Brennan.—The Army have a very good system of inventory. They paste on the back of the door of each room details of the contents of the room. If anything is taken from the room it can be struck off the list and if anything is brought into the room it can be added to the list. The quarter-master can see the position at a glance.

Deputy Bartley.—To strike it off the list would not be a great precaution. If a typewriter were stolen and it was struck off the list one would not make much headway there.

Deputy J. Brennan.—I had checking in mind.

Chairman.—I imagine that the issue of a certificate would regularise that position?—I think so. The onus will be on the Department. They will give a certificate that the machines are in regular and daily use. If anything turns up afterwards, they will be answerable.

924. Deputy A. Barry.—The maintenance of plant in Departments could lead to a terrible lot of red tape and inefficiency in repair and maintenance. I do not know whether or not it is within our competence to discuss what could be incompetent in that. With all human weakness, it would not seem to me an efficient way of looking at plant. If a typewriter in Dingle requires repairs must it be taken to the Department and then sent back again? I do not understand how the thing is done. Can you give me a better picture?—Do you mean with regard to the method of repair?

If £10 or £12 has to be spent on repairing office equipment in some substation of a Department down the country—if they find it will cost that— how does the officer set about it?—Take, for example, the case of the Guards. If a machine breaks down we authorise them to arrange for a local repair up to £5. A sum of £5 should cover an ordinary repair. When it goes beyond that, it is a matter for our mechanics. We tell them to send the machine up and we issue them with a repaired machine in lieu.

925. Deputy Sheldon. — Do you have much trouble with machines which are sent out and get broken in transit?— I do not recollect that it ever happened. In my time, that has never come to my notice.

926. Chairman.—Has the work of the Departments been mechanised to any great extent in recent years?—It has, Sir. I would estimate that, at the moment, the value of accounting machinery of all kinds would be well over £100,000. When we took the census in 1952 the value at that time was £110,000. Allowing for certain purchases since then, I am sure it would be at least £120,000. That would indicate, of course, that mechanisation has advanced steadily within the Departments.

927. Deputy A. Barry.—With a very valuable modern accounting machine, would a figure of £5 permitted for local repair not seem a very small amount in proportion to the value of the machine? —If I may say so, not in the case of a typewriter. You can do quite a fair amount for £5 on a typewriter. These machines issued to the Guards have served a very long time. We think it is better to have them under our control when they break down beyond a repair cost of £5. We deal with them ourselves and we issue a repaired machine in lieu.

928. Deputy J. Brennan.—In replacing old worn-out machines, are they traded in to the companies from which you buy?—Yes. When we buy machines we trade out an equivalent number. If we can sell more of them—if we happen to have them—well and good. At the moment, we have just bought 80 machines. We have traded out 80 old machines with them.

929. Chairman.—Do you try to standardise the machines of the Service as much as possible?—In the case of typewriters, we are prepared to buy the popular models. However, we buy at the most favourable price. We go to tender to a certain list of the better known typewriter companies. Whoever gives us the best value, taking into account trade out as well, we place the order with them. We do not adhere to one make of machine all the time.

Deputy Bartley. — I think the typewriters which survived the Custom House fire are worthy of support.

930. Chairman.—Paragraph 24 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads as follows:

“It has been the practice of the Stationery Office to release stocks of paper to printing contractors in anticipation of the issue of orders and, on the expiration of the relevant contracts, to have returned to store the balance of paper unused. In the course of audit it was noted that on the expiration of contracts considerable delay had occurred in the surrender of unused balances of paper; and also that the quantities of paper on hands as reported by certain contractors did not agree with the Stationery Office records. I have communicated with the Accounting Officer on this matter.”

Mr. Ó Cadhla.—In reply to my inquiry regarding the control exercised over depot stocks of paper (I might mention that paper issued to contractors is described as depot stock), I am informed that paper is issued to contractors to meet anticipated requirements. The issues and consumption are recorded and running balances are struck. When a contract is completed, the contractor is required to return any unused balance of paper.

Deputy A. Barry.—Including a return of the stocks he holds?

Mr. Ó Cadhla.—The actual quantity unused should be returned to the Stationery Office store. It is intended to include a condition in future contracts to provide that contractors will keep records to show the receipt and consumption of all classes of paper issued, and that the records will be available for check by a representative of the Stationery Office. Difficulties arise owing to the long periods over which contracts run. In one of the cases I questioned, claims amounting to £1,200 have been made against a firm in respect of paper unaccounted for. Some of these date back to 1947. In another case the contract expired in February, 1947, but the unused stocks were not surrendered until March, 1954. Differences between the Stationery Office’s records and those of the contracting firms give rise to protracted correspondence.

Mr. Carr.—That is the position. When we make long-term contracts, and when we think it is advisable, we issue paper on what we call “depot stocks.” It is to avoid the necessity of sending out paper on every occasion on which an order is issued. At the moment, we have seven contractors in Dublin to whom we issue stocks of paper and there are eight in the Provinces. Depending on the type of contract that is made, we issue an initial quantity of paper which we estimate will carry them on for a little while. The order for a particular job specifies the quantity and type of paper required.

The quantity of paper for the job is recorded in a ledger in the Stationery Office. A running balance is shown. Consequently, we know at any time what quantity of any particular type of paper a contractor should have. If he writes when he gets an order, and says: “I have no paper,” when we know he should have, we issue paper on what we call a “fines order,” that is, we issue paper to have the job dealt with promptly, but we charge him for that particular paper and we write and tell him he will have to pay up if he cannot account for the paper. We have a condition in our contracts that the contractor must keep records to show the quantity of paper held. Where we are unable to reconcile his stocks with our records through correspondence, we can send a man down to inspect them.

931. Deputy A. Barry.—If there is then a physical deficiency, do you ask them to account in money?—If necessary. We have a case going on at the moment in connection with a contractor. We claim that he owes us £1,240 for paper. We took the precaution to withhold £1,241 from accounts due to him and we will not release the money unless we get the paper. We are satisfied that the paper was issued. We have shown him the ledger, but he continues to question it. There will always be correspondence between ourselves and printers about the quantities of paper held. Some of the contractors hold up to 160 or 170 types of paper.

932. I take it that if a book is printed, there could be a legitimate dispute about the amount of paper required to produce the book? — We allow a certain number of “overs” in connection with the printing. Sometimes a contractor will claim that we are not generous enough in allowing for “overs.” We go into the matter and if he makes a good case, we agree with his contention but, having come to an agreement on that, we insist on the contractor’s records agreeing with our own, and that he will return the paper, if it is unused in the contract, or pay for it.

933. Deputy Bartley. — There is one aspect of this matter about which I should like to get some information. Would it be possible in making a contract to provide that the contractor would supply the paper himself? Why should it be thought desirable to have the Stationery Office supply the paper and just contract for the doing of the work?—There are several reasons. First of all, we can buy paper cheaper than the ordinary contractor, unless he is in the business in a big way. We have a very large number of contractors. Some are small contractors. They could not buy paper in the way we could. Secondly, we carry a reserve of about six months’ stock so that, when we place an order with a contractor, the paper is supplied at once. If we had to place orders with a printer who himself supplied the paper, he would have to place an order with the mills for the particular type of paper required. If the paper were not in stock, the mills would not arrange for the making of that paper until it suited them. We might be out of a printing job for several months as a result. These are some of the principal reasons why the Stationery Office does the work.

Deputy Bartley. — They are good reasons.

934. Deputy A. Barry.—I take it that that is the practice in England and other countries?

Mr. Ó Cadhla.—Yes.

935. Deputy J. Brennan. — Would a small printing press not be justified under the circumstances?

Deputy Sheldon.—A certain amount of printing is done in the Stationery Office.

Mr. Carr. — Yes, but we do not do printing in the ordinary way, of course. The various census publications are done on a Rotaprint. We run them off on our machines because we could not get them done by a printer.

Deputy J. Brennan. — They are difficult enough to read, too.

936. Deputy Sheldon.—I take it that at the moment the various matters in relation to stores and accounts in regard to paper are being tightened up and that Mr. Carr is endeavouring to ensure that the type of delay which apparently took place in the past will not take place in the future, as far as it can be avoided?—We are bringing new arrangements into operation in the near future. We are bringing in a new type of demand form, the principal purpose of which is to cut away from descriptions of stores. We will work on code numbers. It will speed up the preparation of demands and simplify the work for the ledger keepers in our place. We are introducing a new type of ledger which will be easily handled by the ledger keepers and we are arranging for 100 per cent. check. We dropped that check during the past few years, but found it does not pay us to drop the checking of ledgers. We have to reintroduce the 100 per cent. check. We are arranging for periodic checks of stocks throughout the year of selected items. If the stocks at the particular time do not agree with the ledger, we can arrange to get after the matter. Finally, at the end of each financial year, we will get out our trial balance from the ledgers within a month. In the past, it took very much longer than that, but there was a reason for it. We were concentrating upon more important matters. The matter is being cleared up now, Sir. I can assure you of that.

937. Chairman.—How many cases of the kind referred to by the Comptroller and Auditor General did you have?—In the particular case he mentioned, there were four firms involved. Of those four, two are completely cleared off. In regard to the third one, we have agreed with the contractor regarding the quantity of paper which he should have and he has assured us that he has it. He told us he was sending it up to us, but he has not yet done so. We are getting after him. He has to pay the rail charges. In that particular case, we have no doubt that everything will be all right. The fourth case is the one I mentioned a little while ago, where we maintain that the firm owes us £1,240 for paper supplied to them. We have withheld £1,241 from accounts due to them. We are safe from the money point of view. Apart from those particular cases, we have gone to the other firms asking them to give us a return of all the paper held on a particular date. We will compare those returns with our ledgers and where there are any discrepancies, we will pursue the matter through correspondence. Up to the present, we have not lost any paper.

938. I note there was a delay from 1947 to 1954. To what cause would you attribute that delay?—In that particular case, we placed certain contracts with the firm in 1947. The firm fell down on a number of contracts, but they still hold some contracts from us. There was always a likelihood that we would make further contracts with them. We had no objection to them as a printing firm. They simply fell down on the particular contracts for which we issued the quantity of paper.

939. Deputy A. Barry.—Did they fall down in the matter of the speed of delivery?

Mr. Ó Cadhla.—They failed to return until 1954 the unused portion of the stock of paper which they got in 1947.

Mr. Carr.—The reason being that we did not pursue the thing very vigorously at first. At that time we might have made fresh contracts with that firm and the paper would be required for those contracts. When they did not get any additional contract, we then began to get concerned and asked them to return the paper. As I said, when they did not return the paper, we withheld the value of the paper from accounts due to them.

940. Chairman.—In this connection, are the contractors required to keep stocks separately?—There is a condition in all our printing contracts that they must; also that they must keep records and have their records available for inspection by a representative of the Stationery Office when he arrives. That is a condition of the contract.

941. You now propose to apply additional checks to stocks with contractors?—In any cases where we are at all doubtful we will send a man down to inspect the paper and satisfy himself it is actually there, but where we can settle the matter by correspondence, obviously we will do so.

942. From your experience, I presume you are satisfied that this would be an economic proposition?—It could happen, Sir, that there would be a very small quantity of paper involved. I would not send a man to Kerry to check whether a firm had a quire of paper if the cost of travelling and subsistence far outweighed the value of the paper. I would rather get authority to write it off than do that.

943. Deputy A. Barry.—There is a question I should like to ask as a matter of information. The Chairman asked a number of Accounting Officers if they used the services of the Stationery Office in relation to publicity matters for the Departments. I am not quite clear what machinery is used in that respect. Does the Stationery Office buy the space in the newspapers or does it hire advertising agents to supply the material for that space? Is it all done through agents?— In the case of Government Notices, what happens is that, after competition, we appoint an advertising agent and tell the Departments they are to go to that particular firm for the insertion of Government Notices and to some extent, certain types of advertisements. Apart from that type of advertising, some of the Departments carry out advertising campaigns. For instance, the Department of Defence might carry out a recruiting campaign and the Department of Agriculture might carry out a campaign at a particular time of the year. They make their own arrangements for that. It is not done through our advertising agent. Once we appoint the advertising agent, we do not come into the picture at all, unless we thought too much money was being spent on Government Notices or that too big a Notice was being used.

944. Is there any check or control in regard to the size of the advertisement published and the number of newspapers which get the advertisement? Is there a standard in regard to the amount of money spent on advertising? — In the Stationery Office we never see the copy for the advertisement. It goes direct to the advertising agent. It would seem elementary to me that a Department should lay out advertisements in the most economic way. For example, if the advertisement is headed “Department X” and the name of the secretary is put at the bottom, while the name of the Department is repeated, I should personally say that that is not an economic way of planning the Notice. We have drawn the attention of Departments to this matter. We thought it was unnecessary to specify the name of the Secretary or repeat the name of the Department. To that extent, we exercise control. In the first instance, it is the responsibility of the Departments to prepare copy and send it direct to the advertising agent. We do not see it, Sir.

945. Apparently the agent is paid on a commission basis?—Yes.

946. What I am trying to get at is, is there any restriction?—The agent must get it in provided he gets it within a reasonable time. He is told the papers in which it is to be inserted and provided he gets reasonable notice to enable him to get copy down to the papers so that it can be set for the particular issue concerned, we consider that he is doing his job.

That is all right. I am quite satisfied about that end of it. I just wanted to know if there was a policy of planning about the amount of space which would be bought and the number of newspapers that should be used—that is all.

Chairman.—For the further information of Deputy Barry, I asked a question on this which he can look up some time.

Deputy A. Barry.—How long ago?

Chairman.—About 12 months ago.

947. Deputy Bartley.—Before passing from paragraph 24, I think it would be unwise on the part of the Committee to press the Stationery Office unduly on this question of the surrender of the unused balances of paper. Quite apart now from the running contracts, if a reputable contractor is likely to receive further contracts, I think it is a facility to the Stationery Office that the contractor should retain these balances of paper. After all, he is doing a job of storage for the Stationery Office and it obviates checking-in of these unused balances again in the Stationery Office which would of course entail further accounting work in the Stationery Office itself. If the system has worked fairly satisfactorily, I think there is a good deal to be said for leaving those stocks with the contractor, provided he has a reasonably good system of checking these stocks from time to time?—That would be the view of the Stationery Office, too. We would exercise discretion in a matter like this, because when a contract terminates we know from the manner in which the contractor has hitherto carried out the work whether he is likely to get another contract. He is bound to be invited to tender for another contract and if we knew we were going to invite tenders for that type of contract in a month’s time or two months and that he is likely to come in for it, we would not be in any hurry to get the paper back. He would also get an opportunity to buy the paper from us.

948. What would happen is that you would get it back and probably in a week or so you would send it out again?—We would exercise discretion there. It is actually happening at the moment. There are two firms who hold depot stocks and we are not going to say to them: “Send up the paper at once.” We will wait and see if they are given contracts again. If they are invited to tender and if the contracts are given to them, the paper will be waiting when printing orders arrive.

949. Chairman.—On subhead A.— Salaries, Wages and Allowances.—I note from the explanation that some posts are not filled. What types of posts are these? —There was provision that year for a Higher Staff Officer in the Estimates. That post was not filled. You will notice that we provided for 18 Clerical Officers. In the current year we have 15. There were three Clerical Officer posts not filled and there were some Printing and Binding clerks. If you look under Technical Staff you will see in 1953-54 we provided for ten Printing and Binding clerks and in the current financial year, 1955-56 you will see we have nine Printing and Binding Clerks. In other words, these vacancies have not been filled. I think we also lost one typist. In 1953-54 we had ten typists and we have nine this year, so that there are four grades affected, the Higher Staff Officer, three Clerical Officers, a Typist and a Printing and Binding clerk. These posts were not filled.

950. On subhead B.—Carriage and Transport.—how many vehicles have you? —We have three—two trucks and a light van. They are in wholetime use.

951. How do you get maintenance work done?—It is done for us by the Post Office service station. We get our petrol and oils through the Post Office also.

952. On subhead C. — Incidental Expenses—the excess on this subhead is more than 50 per cent. What type of packing equipment did you buy and roughly how much did it cost?—I think you will find that that was the year we increased our waste paper sales. We bought a lot of waste paper bags, both for ourselves and the Post Office and I think it is reflected in connection with sales of waste paper. That was one of the reasons we increased our purchases. We also bought a number of packing cases—or rather got the Post Office to supply us with a number of packing cases, principally for the dispatch of ink and stores down the country. These items fell for payment within that year. The Post Office had made them and were holding them but we took them on charge within that year. These are the principal causes of the additional cost of packing.

953. On subhead D.—Printing and Binding—do you do any printing or binding yourselves or is most of it let out?— Practically all is let out to contract. We do a little on Rotaprint machines.

954. Is there keen competition for your work?—Yes, there is. In the last couple of years we have doubled the number of contractors and at the moment most of our work is done in the provinces. At one time I understand the amount of work done outside Dublin amounted to about 10 per cent. Now it is over 50 per cent. That indicates that the provincial contractors are more interested in our work and we have brought in Dublin firms that had hitherto not tendered for our work at all. To that extent we get better competitoion.

955. Deputy A. Barry. — Does the matter of inward and outward freight charges in the case of a contractor far away counterbalance any advantage you would have there? — It is worth their while, obviously, because if we are sending paper down to them, on depot stock, they have to pay the cost of the carriage. If they are sending printed jobs up to us they have to pay the carriage on the job, so that it still must be well worth their while as they continue to tender and take contracts.

Oh, I am very anxious for contracts to get outside Dublin.

956. Chairman.—It is rather a good thing. On what basis do you place contracts? Is it mostly lump sum?—We have various types of contract, among them group contracts of which we have over 100 types. We have some prepared on what we call a priced item basis, that is to say, there is a price for every particular item and there might be four or five hundred items actually in those contracts. What happens in the case of a priced item contract is that there is a price paid for the initial composition and thereafter for reprints we pay merely a price per 100 or per 1,000 for that particular item.

In the case of the other group contracts we are now aiming to get them on the basis of an all-in price per page for composition, proofing, folding, gathering, collating and everything up to the final printing off. Then we have a separate price for machining. There are a few types of contract where we have to arrange for separate prices for every operation. Where it is not possible to draw specifications for everything that might turn up, we have to have separate prices for every conceivable operation in printing. Finally, we have an all-in price. Eighty per cent. of our work goes under group contract and roughly 20 per cent. would go under what we call “specials,” something we could not have anticipated. It is a type of work for which we have to draw special specifications, go to tender and we get an all-in price for the job.

957. In cases where tenders are solicited from a number of printing firms, are you at liberty to select the lowest item from each firm?—No, Sir; the question would only arise in that type of contract which I have referred to as a priced item contract. We get varying prices within that type of contract, but when we are deciding on the matter we add up the cost of all the items and we take the over-all price for the particular contract. The reason is that some contractors will quote for some items at production cost or even go below that, because if they get the contract as a whole, they know they will make up on other items. For that reason, we could not pick items out. It is an all-in price for that particular contract, not a price per individual item.

958. Last year you told us that the accounts were very much in arrear. What was the extent of your liabilities at the end of this year?—At the 31st March last we brought it down to £8,500. Of course the figure varies from month to month. That £8,500 is an extremely low figure.

959. Deputy A. Barry.—Do I understand that the indebtedness of the Stationery Office to all printers was only £8,500 at the end of March last?— Definitely, Sir.

960. You must be paying almost before you get delivery?—We made special efforts to pay off everything. The firms know our procedure and they rushed their accounts in before March in order to get paid; but it does not follow that we owe only £8,500 each month.

961. But you have less than a month’s purchase?—There is a particular reason. The printers know we want to get our money out before 31st March.

962. Can accounts be accounted and verified in that time? Your printing and binding bills come to £250,000; and in respect of all the work done you only owed £8,500 on 1st April. That seems to be an extraordinary achievement?— That is the position.

Deputy Sheldon.—March might be a slow month compared with others.

963. Deputy J. Brennan.—I am sure the printers are glad to get their money? —We arrange that every printer will be paid within a month from the date of the claim reaching the Stationery Office. Unfortunately, printers, instead of sending their accounts in within the first couple of days of the succeeding month, often wait until the end of the month. Obviously they cannot be paid in that particular month. For instance, if the account for work done in October is not sent in until the last week in November the contractor cannot be paid in November; but the account will be paid within one month from the date of its receipt in the Stationery Office.

964. Chairman.—With regard to subhead E.—Paper—roughly, to what extent was the saving on this subhead due to reduced prices?—At that particular time paper fell by about 1d. per lb. roughly. Now 1d. per lb. would work out at about £9 or £10 per ton. Our user of paper at that time would be about 1,100 tons or 1,200 tons. Apart from that we started to eat into our reserve stocks. That is stated in the Notes.

965. Deputy Sheldon.—They dropped by about £58,700?—They dropped very substantially, yes.

Deputy Brennan.—In fact, the estimate was for £44,000 less than the previous year.

966. Chairman.—To what extent can you obtain your paper supplies from Irish mills?—We obtain practically all our paper from Irish mills except paper that is not made in the country. There are certain types that are not made here. Gummed paper and art paper, for instance, are not made here. I would say we obtain 90 per cent. of all our papers from Irish mills. There is a heavy duty, 33⅓ per cent., on most types of paper.

967. On subhead F.—Books, Periodicals and Maps—do you supply all books and periodicals for the Service?—I think we do. We can certainly say we try to do so because we are entitled to a book-seller’s discount and we insist on Departments coming through us as far as we can. If they go off and buy something, which they should not, we would never hear about that; but, ordinarily, all books and periodicals are bought through us.

968. Are the maps referred to here Ordnance Survey maps?—They are entirely Ordnance Survey maps. We get them from Ordnance Survey and they allow us a certain discount, and then we sell them.

969. Deputy J. Brennan.—You had a little booklet on social services. Has that been revised and brought up-to-date?— I think I saw a copy of it this week. I think it was only yesterday or the day before I saw a copy of the reprint.

970. Is it on sale now?—It should be on sale to-day. When I get a copy it usually means that that day it goes down to the Sale Office. I am pretty sure it is on sale, but I will make inquiries if you like.

971. Chairman.—With regard to subhead G.—Office Machinery and other Office Supplies—have you many machines on hire?—I confess I cannot tell you the number of machines, but I can tell you the cost of the rentals. I know we pay out each year about £13,500 in rentals on machines. I do not think I can tell you the actual number of machines on hire. We have Holleriths and Powers-Samas. They are the only ones on hire. Holleriths are used in the Land Commission and Revenue. Powers-Samas are used in the Central Statistics Office and in Social Welfare. How many installations they have of these particular machines I confess I cannot tell you, but the hiring charges come to £13,500 a year and I think we pay about £1,300 a year maintenance.

972. Deputy Bartley.—These machines are not purchaseable—We do not purchase that type of machine.

Are they purchaseable?—Yes. There is a clause in the contract that after a certain time on hire the hirer may purchase them. We purchase a type of Powers-Samas but we do not purchase complete Hollerith installations.

973. Chairman.—With regard to item (1) in the details to the Appropriations in Aid—on what basis do you run the Publications Office. Is it a profit making concern?—It is run on business lines. We aim at making a profit and we are continuing to make a profit, although in the last few years our profits have gone down because our overheads have gone up. We moved down to the G.P.O. Arcade and there were pretty heavy expenses. We also had to meet the expense of increasing wages for the staff. All these things increase our expenses; but we are continuing to make a profit and we hope to increase the profit.

974. Deputy J. Brennan.—Out of what fund do you pay for the books you issue to people like Members of the Oireachtas? —Copies of Dáil Debates and so forth go into the Library. They are charged to our Vote. We arrange for the printing under the Parliamentary printing contract. The Department of Finance determines the issue list and they notify us. We supply publications to the Dáil Office, and the cost is chargeable to our Vote.

975. They really show a loss, then?— That happens because of the amount of printing that we do; a lot of it must show a loss because it has to be printed in any case.

976. In spite of that you still show a profit on sales?—We show a profit on sales in the Sale Office; that is so.

977. Deputy A. Barry.—On the transaction of selling the goods sent to the Sale Office; but all the other stuff which is supplied to Deputies and so on is treated separately. That does not go into the profit and loss account?—That does not go in.

Deputy Bartley. — I hope Deputy J. Brennan is not making the case that Deputies should be charged for these publications.

978. Deputy J. Brennan.—I thought the Stationery Office recouped itself from some other Department in relation to these?—No. That particular lot of Deputies’ publication does not go in to the Sale Office. We charge the publications for sale out from the Stationery Office, our own headquarters, to the Sale Office and they have to sell to the public then. They make a profit on those transactions.

979. Deputy Bartley.—Can the Accounting Officer say what effect the change of location has had on sales?—I would judge that by the amount. There has been a steady increase. If you look at the particular year 1953-54, we estimated sales of £17,000 but they actually came to almost £19,000. Since then they have gone up. They were up on the 31st March last. They reached about £23,000. Therefore, it must be inferred that locating the Sale Office in the Arcade has helped to increase the sales of our publications.

980. I do not wish to delay, but it might be interesting if we could be told to what extent sales are on the basis of firm order?—We have a number of people who place a firm order for particular things, like bound volumes of the Acts and Statutory Instruments, and copies of regulations and that kind of thing. Automatically, when a bound volume is published, it is sent by the Sale Office direct, or it may be sent from our headquarters through the wholesale trade. We have quite a large number of people on our regular list. In the case of bound volumes we have solicitors, and various people like that, who get copies of Acts, Statutory Instruments and one thing and another.

981. Deputy A. Barry.—When commercial firms, like Easons and Browne & Nolans require these publications for sale to the public in their premises throughout the country, do they buy from you on a normal commercial basis, taking stocks and suffering loss on their own account, or can they return supplies if they are not sold?—Generally, it is on an all-sale basis, but we offer them certain items on a sale or return basis. They do not appear to be anxious to take them, however. Dáil Debates we offer on a sale or return basis, but they do not accept. That is one particular item. Generally, it is on a purchase price; they pay us for them. We supply Irish books, for example, to the Cómhdháil on a sale or return basis. If they cannot sell them we will take them back.

982. Chairman.—You made a profit last year?—Yes. The profit was down a bit last year, but that was accounted for by the fact that, despite our turnover being greater, our overheads were also greater.

983. With regard to item (2) in the details to Appropriations in Aid—the sale of waste paper and old typewriters— does the price of waste paper vary considerably from year to year?—Not from year to year; there was some decontrol a couple of years ago and that showed up very much in the price. I think now the price varies, according to the quality, from about £10 to £20.

984. Deputy Mrs. Crowley.—Is it easy to dispose of the waste paper?—It depends on the quality again. The Post Office are our agents for the collection and sale of waste paper. From some Departments the paper is very good and they are able to get top price. Against that you would get prices below £10, about £6, if the paper is not free from paper fasteners, and so on. The waste has to go through a machine and by the time you remove the pins, etc., I understand that it is not much use, except for the making of poor quality paper.

985. But you always can get rid of it? —There is no difficulty in disposing of it. In recent years it is much easier to get rid of it.

Deputy Mrs. Crowley.—It is very difficult for the ordinary person.

Deputy Sheldon.—Not at the moment. I think it is very easy at present?—A few years ago we had difficulty, but in the last year we had no difficulty in getting rid of paper.

986. Chairman. — On item (3) in the details to Appropriations in Aid—Advertisements and Notices in Government Publications—you show a good income. What is the basis of your charge?—In that particular year, most of our income came from the Telephone Directory. We appoint an agent to book advertisements in the Telephone Directory. There is a price per page, for an all-page advertisement, a price per half-page, and so on. At that time the agent was dealing with extra insertions. I think you will find in the front of the Telephone Directory a rate of charge for what they call extra and heavy entries. He used to deal with those. That £12,000 would be made up principally of what income we derived from the Telephone Directory. But apart from the Directory we have the Trade Journal. The advertisements in that come to this subhead also. We also have advertisements in Cookery Notes, the Industrial Directory, and things like that. They all go to this particular subhead.

987. On item (5)—Supplies and services on repayment terms, including commission thereon—what type of supplies and services are these?—They would be all items of stationery. We supply pens, pencils, duplicating papers, etc., to the E.S.B., Bord na Móna, Irish Lights and people like that, that are not Government Departments as such. We supply them at cost price, plus 10 per cent.

988. Deputy Sheldon.—In the Notes at the end of the Vote there is a paragraph which refers to loose leaf binders. Did the change in price make any difference in respect of tenders by other firms? Did it mean that someone got the tender by accident and that some tender lower than this 4/11 was knocked out when it should not have been?—What happened there was that we invited tenders from quite a number of firms. Four tenders were received. There was one at 3/6, one at 5/5 and two at 6/-. We accepted the 3/6 although at the time it was pointed out that this was an extremely low price. We decided to place the order in the hope that the firm would do it. When they got the order, they told us that their estimating clerk had made a mistake. He had calculated on the basis of 500 fittings instead of 2,000. This particular firm had previously tendered for 1,000 binders and their price on that occasion was 6/9 so that on the face of it it looked as if they had made a genuine mistake and they asked us would we increase the price from 3/6 to 4/11. That would mean that the price was still below the next price of 5/5. We thought the claim was genuine and we put the matter to the Department of Finance explaining the whole circumstances. They agreed to allow us to change the price to 4/11.

989. Chairman.—According to the fourth paragraph in the Notes, you made an ex-gratia payment of £2,500 odd in respect of work done in the years 1947 to 1951. How did this charge only arise now?—This is like the pre-Custom House fire typewriter. The original contract was made in the year 1928 and it was for a period of two years with extension by agreement between the parties. It was never formally extended but was allowed to run on and on. In the period concerned there had been a number of wage increases, and there was a sort of gentlemen’s agreement between this firm and the Stationery Office that eventually they would be paid the increased cost of wages. There was a change of ownership in the firm a few years ago and the incoming manager thought it was about time this arrangement stopped and he put it up to us. We had to admit, of course, that the amount was payable, but he waived the claim for the whole period prior to 1947 on the understanding that the balance would be paid promptly. Therefore, he got his money and we saved on the period prior to 1947. It was one of the old problems that was left to us from these old running contracts.

990. Deputy A. Barry. — Was any attempt made after that to compete for this business?—Originally there was only one firm that would do this job. This firm was absorbed by a much bigger firm. They are the only firm that have ever come in and they are doing the work for us at the moment. We supply the paper and they simply cut it and stamp it.

991. Chairman.—In the fifth paragraph to the Notes, you record an exgratia payment of £1,233. This must be a very big order. For what Department were the labels required? — These were tag labels for the Post Office. These labels record the names of the various post offices throughout the country. They are used on the mail trains. This was another peculiar case. Again the firm is the only one who would take on this job. They had held a previous contract and they did not include a materials variation clause. They had made a claim and we had paid it. A new contract was made and there was no variation clause in the new contract. The firm did not cover themselves by including a variation clause because they assumed that when we paid it in the first instance we would pay it again. In that particular case I think their original claim was by negotiation reduced from £1,253 to £1,233. We put it to the Department of Finance and they agreed in the circumstances that we could pay it.

992. I notice from the sixth paragraph to the Notes that there was a big exgratia payment. There was a similar one last year?—That was for the Telephone Directory. I think in my explanation last year I stated that the original contract was based on a figure of 80,000 copies of the Telephone Directory. In the year 1953/54 the number of directories was very considerably over 80,000; it went to something over 10,000. Neither the Stationery Office nor the printers envisaged at the time what the effect of such an increase would be on the printers’ premises. In fact when they finally printed off, I think, 106,000 copies of the Directory, they absolutely flooded out the whole factory, with the result that they were unable to take in other work. To that extent it was a big loss to them. They asked for an ex-gratia payment to overcome the difficulty. We put the case to the Department of Finance and they agreed with our contention. It was paid, but that was the last time we placed an order with that firm. Incidentally I might say that up to the following year, when we made a new contract, this was the only firm that tendered for the Telephone Directory. In 1954 the new contract came into operation and, of course, under the new contract we took good care to tell the contractor we were not going to make any ex-gratia payments, that he could make his own arrangements. That was made clear in the contract.

993. Deputy Bartley. — The terms and conditions of the contract, of course, would have a bearing on this matter. Did the contractor contract to produce a specified number of the Directory?—The contract was a long-term one which ran from 1948 for five years. At that time we did not envisage in the Stationery Office such an extension of the telephone service and we specified a figure of 80,000, with a possible extension. We never envisaged that it would go up to over 100,000 and the contractor never envisaged what the effect of 100,000 copies would be on his factory accommodation.

994. The point I want to get at is this. He contracted to produce each year to the order of the Stationery Office?—In our specification for the contract we said, if I remember rightly: “The present requirements are 80,000 but the numbers may increase or may diminish.” When it comes to 20,000 or 25,000 on top of 80,000, it is a very big increase and the contractor would be justified in claiming that it is outside the terms of the original contract.

995. Arising further from that, would there be any advantage in decentralising, breaking up, this contract and having it on a provincial basis say, do the Munster printing in Cork and the Western printing, say, in Galway? Would that be possible? It would seem to me that, if that were possible, it would simplify the work of distributing the Directory?—The only way that would be possible, Sir, would be by decentralisation of portion of the staff of the Post Office. Taking the 1956 Directory, which will come out next October, they have been working away on that for some time. The printer produces his proofs and they then go to the Post Office. The Post Office checks the proofs and continues checking them and introducing new numbers up to a certain date in July, when proofing closes down because the printer has to arrange for printing off and binding, and what comes in after that goes in separately at the back of the Directory as a supplement. If you had a staff in Cork, for example, to deal with Munster that staff would have to be in constant touch with the printer so that the proofs would pass within a few days from the printer to the Post Office staff and from them back. That is the requirement. Although there are a couple of good firms in Cork, I doubt if there is any firm in Cork that would like to take on even the provincial part of the Telephone Directory.

996. Deputy Sheldon.—I took it that Deputy Bartley was not talking about splitting the Directory into parts, but splitting the work. Surely the composition, the setting up of type, is a very extensive part of the work and eventually you would find that you would be quadrupling the cost?—It would increase the cost of producing the Directory enormously—bound to.

Deputy A. Barry.—That is the point.

Deputy Bartley.—There is a technical problem there, of course. I have no technical knowledge of printing work but it struck me that possibly the original composition of the work might be done in one place and at that point I thought decentralisation might then become possible.

997. Deputy A. Barry.—In view of the detail that is required up to the last moment, as the Accounting Officer says, it would probably be impossible to decentralise the printing?—It would be a very difficult thing because after the initial composition the firm has to make alterations which are necessitated through people changing their address and new people coming in, people dying, etc. Then stereos have to be made. The proofing would be the real difficulty.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 5—COMPTROLLER AND AUDITOR GENERAL.

Mr. C. O’Neill called and examined.

998. Chairman. — In connection with subhead A.—Salaries, Wages and Allowances—why did the vacancies remain unfilled or was your retrenchment extensive? Your office seems to be small?— There were the two elements. There were vacancies unfilled, we had a rather abnormal turnover of staff that year and there was a certain inevitable delay in getting replacements. The other element was that we retrenched certain staff in response to the economy drive. We surrendered three or four posts.

Deputy Bartley.—And there were fewer marriages? — That position was rectified in the following year, I think.

999. Deputy Sheldon. — What is the present position about staff? The Appropriation Accounts were very delayed in appearing this year. I was wondering did the staffing position in the Department have any effect in causing this delay?—I think not, Sir. We have been trying for years to get the accounts submitted earlier and we are succeeding up to a point; we have also been aiming to get the accounts to the printers before the Estimates. We have not succeeded in doing that and they get held up very much.

1000. Then the delay this year would be because the accounts did not come in so that you could get them printed before the Estimates and then once the Book of Estimates was in print there was printing delay as well?—Yes. Our ambition is to beat the Estimates as regards printing, but we have not succeeded in doing that. We are very often tugging around with the printers months into the new year.

1001. Chairman. — In regard to subhead B.—Travelling Expenses—on what kind of audits do your incur travelling expenses? — We carry out local audits through the country at certain Army posts, and some of our commercial audits also involve travelling. We go down to Haulbowline for Irish Steel Holdings; to the Curragh on the military side and Cork; the different Commands. In addition, there is a lot of minor travelling in and around the city.

1002. Deputy Bartley. — Do Departments like Social Welfare and Local Government do their own auditing?— Local Government carry out the audits of the local authorities, of course, but we audit the accounts of the Department.

1003. I see. That is the connection I wanted to find out. There is supervision by this Office over all Departments of State?—Quite.

Even if they do not audit the local bodies directly themselves, they still have a check at headquarters?

Deputy J. Brennan.—It would not be a check on the local authorities.

Deputy A. Barry.—It would not be a check on the local authorities; only a check on the actual ins and outs of the Department.

1004. Deputy Bartley.—Am I right in this view, that there is a check carried out by the Comptroller and Auditor General on the work done by departmental auditors?—Oh, no, Sir; we have no such functions.

Mr. Ó Cadhla.—The statutory duty of the Comtptroller and Auditor General is to audit the expenditure of each of the various Departmental Votes. The audit staff of the Department of Local Government have a statutory duty to audit the accounts of the local authorities.

1005. Deputy Bartley. — And that is the final audit?

Mr. Ó Cadhla. — There is no link between the Central Government audit and the Local Government audit of local authorities’ expenditure.

1006. Deputy A. Barry.—There is no supervision, you mean, of that audit?

Mr. Ó Cadhla.—No. Whatever supervision there is is exercised by Local Government.

1007. Chairman. — In respect of subhead D.—Appropriations in Aid—you received £200 more than you expected. Was this an additional fee?

Mr. O’Neill.—No, Sir. It was due to the fact that more time was devoted to two audits than we had anticipated. The fee is directly related to the time taken to do the audit. We thought one audit was tapering off a bit, but, in fact, it involved more time than we thought and resulted in a heavier fee than anticipated.

The witness withdrew.

The Committee adjourned.