|
|
|
|
MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA(Minutes of Evidence)Déardaoin, 17ú Iúil, 1952.Thursday, 17th July, 1952.The Committee sat at 11 a.m..
Mr. W. E. Wann (An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste), Mr. M. Breathnach and Mr. B Ó Brolcháin (An Roinn Airgeadais) called and examined.VOTE 8—OFFICE OF PUBLIC WORKS.Diarmuid Ó hEigceartuigh called and examined.459. Chairman.—Paragraph 9 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads as follows:— “Insurance of Workman. Reference was made in previous reports to the Commissioners’ claim against the liquidator of the Irish Employers’ Mutual Insurance Association, Limited, in respect of payments of compensation, etc., arising out of accident risks which had been covered by policies of insurance with that Association, and to the fact that the liquidator had submitted for determination by the High Court the question whether the claim is a debt due to the State and entitled to priority. I understand that the High Court decided that the claim is not entitled to priority and that an appeal against this decision has been taken to the Supreme Court.” Have you anything to add to that matter, Mr. Wann? Mr. Wann.—No, except that I understand that the decision of the Supreme Court has not yet been given. 460. Chairman.—I understand, Mr. Ó hEigceartuigh, that the liquidator in this matter has put in a very heavy claim for services. In the event of that claim succeeding, will it materially affect the State’s claim in the case? Mr. Ó hEigceartuigh.—In this case the claim of the liquidator would, of course, have precedence over all other claims, but it would only affect the balance due for division. I have not seen the affidavit in connection with the matter, but I understand that the liquidator has put in a claim for £10,000 on account of fees in connection with his services, that he has on hands something like £27,000 and that Lloyd’s Insurance Company have made an offer of £12,000 in respect of a claim which has been made against them. Whether these figures are correct I do not know, but they were quoted in the Press reports of the case in the courts. The liquidator undoubtedly had a very heavy job in this particular instance. 461. Yes, it has been a very protracted business indeed?—It has been very protracted. 462. You are not suggesting that Lloyd’s have a prior claim over all other companies?—It is not a claim by Lloyd’s. It is a claim by the Association against Lloyd’s for re-insurance. 463. Chairman.—Paragraph 10 of the Report deals with extra receipts payable to the Exchequer and reads as follows:— “In assessing the cost of telephone capital works carried out for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs it had not been the practice to add to the direct cost of the works a charge to cover administration, etc., expenses. The Department of Finance decided in the year under review that overhead charges should be added to the direct cost of the works and a sum of £14,858 0s. 11d. in respect of the period 1st April, 1948, to 30th June, 1950, has accordingly been recovered from the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and brought to account as an Exchequer extra receipt. Similar receipts will in future be credited to Appropriations in Aid.” Have you anything to add in this case, Mr. Wann? Mr. Wann.—No. It is obviously desirable that overheads should be taken into account in arriving at the charge against telephone capital. 464. Chairman.—This covers a period of about two and a half years. Is that so, Mr. Ó hEigceartuigh? Mr. Ó hEigceartuigh.—Yes. 465. It would run to about £6,000 a year, more or less, or does it vary?—It would depend on the works that are being done at the time out of telephone capital. In recent years there has been a considerable amount of work by reason of the extension in the number of repeater stations and that type of business. In the earlier years it would not have been as big as this. It all depends on the Post Office requirements from year to year. 466. It is related to the amount of work being done at the time?—It is, yes. 467. Under subhead C.—Incidental Expenses—can you give us the exact amount that was spent for the purchase of equipment and supplies for the technical staffs?—The total amount was £1,903 18s. 6d. 468. That is about £1,000 over your estimate?—It is, yes. 469. Is not that a considerable increase on the previous year’s figure?—Yes, it is. We were endeavouring for some time to recruit engineers. At that time we were beginning to recruit them in some numbers and they required levels and various other instruments of that sort. The actual cost of this equipment was much greater than we had anticipated. 470. I think that you had some difficulty in getting suitable technical staff? —We had, but they were beginning to come in about that time. 471. And, of course, you would have had to have the necessary equipment before they came into the service?— Actually we did not do that. We got the equipment and the other instruments as the staffs were coming in. We began to recruit engineers with greater freedom about that time. 472. Did you find that the actual supplies had risen in price as well?— Supplies had risen in price, yes. 473. With regard to Shannon navigation in the statement of receipts and repayments by the Commissioners of Public Works in respect of non-voted services, I notice there is a debit balance which appears to be continuous throughout the years. Have you any hope of the reverse being the case to what is happening now; that is, that there will be an increase in receipts?—I should say not. The tolls are as high as they can be. We would have to get statutory authority to enable us to increase the present charges, and we would be very doubtful if the traffic would carry such increases. The wages figures and other charges have gone up, and I doubt very much if we will reach the stage where the Shannon navigation would be a paying concern. There is quite a lot of arrears of maintenance works which are not what you might call of immediate necessity but which should be attended to, nevertheless, and which will have to be attended to some time. In previous years the Dáil voted moneys to meet what was an anticipated loss in Shannon navigation, but we have never had to call on it since. That was some years ago. 474. It looks as though that would have to happen again if this deficit continues to increase?—Yes. At the moment, of course, we have a certain amount of funds in stocks and we propose to realise some of them to put the account here in funds. VOTE 9—PUBLIC WORKS AND BUILDINGS.Diarmuid Ó hEigceartuigh further examined.475. Chairman.—Paragraph 11 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads as follows:— “Subhead B.—New Works, Alterations and Additions. Part III of the Estimates for Public Works and Buildings has in previous years included schedules showing the estimated cost of each new work, the estimated expenditure on each work to the end of the previous financial year, the Vote required for the ensuing year and the further estimated cost of completing the work, and statements, in conformity with Part III of the Estimates, have been appended to the Appropriation Accounts. In the Estimate for the year under review the detailed schedule was replaced by a summary showing only the total provision for new works undertaken for each Department, and the statement appended to the Appropriation Account is compiled on that basis. Details of the expenditure on the individual works have, however, been furnished to me.” The first matter that arises here is that the Public Accounts Committee has always considered that any changes—material changes—in the form of the Estimates should be reported on before they are put to the Committee. This time that did not happen and I would like to hear from you on that matter?—This was not a decision of our own; it was taken by the Minister for Finance on the understanding and on the basis that it would effect a saving in printing costs and a saving in checking time. This was the first year when the estimation of the capital expenditure and the Estimate of current expenditure were shown separately. That meant that there was a great rush in the Department of Finance and great difficulty in getting the printing done. I understand that was the reason why the alteration was made. We were not responsible for it because our Estimate was originally prepared in the usual way. 476. You will agree, Mr. Ó hEigceartuigh, that that does make a very material difference to the information available to Deputies both in connection with the Estimates and with the Appropriation Account. Of course, we have received from you a schedule for the Appropriation Account?—I admit that.* 477. I wonder whether any great material saving has resulted from this new arrangement?—I cannot answer that. 478. Chairman.—Perhaps the Department of Finance representatives would have something to say on the matter? Mr. Breathnach.—There has been a saving in printing charges and in the checking time. The job of checking is a rather tedious task—checking what we thought were unnecessary details. We believed many of the items were rather trivial and some idea of the size of the undertaking can be gathered from the fact that there are anything from 200 to 250 different items to be dealt with. That involves a very big amount of work in the preparation of those items, first of all, and then in the checking of them. 479. Of course, there are two points of view—one, why the Public Accounts Committee was not consulted in the matter, and the second, whether or not it was a desirable change to make?—It is desirable from the point of view of preparation, checking and from the point of view of printing costs savings. 480. Yes, but the Public Accounts Committee might not think it desirable?— As it occurs in Part III of the Estimate. we did not think you would raise any objection to it. I am glad to say that Mr. McElligott does not agree with you in that matter because he admitted here that it should not have been done. I mention that purely for the purpose of saving you from saying too much. However, we have the details now. 481. Chairman.—Paragraph 12 of the Report reads as follows:— “Reference was made at paragraph 9 of my last report to expenditure which had been incurred in connection with the erection of a central engineering workshop and store, and to the fact that further expenditure on the work had been deferred. This project has been abandoned and premises elsewhere which were available for immediate occupation have been leased for a period of 50 years from 2nd April, 1951. A contract for the sum of £15,784 18s. 0d. had been placed for the structural steelwork for the buildings proposed to be erected and, as noted in the account, sums amounting to £8,974 16s. 9d. were paid to the contractor on foot of the contract which was terminated before completion. I have asked for information regarding the basis on which this amount was determined and also regarding the disposal of the site on which the buildings were to be erected.” Have you anything to add, Mr. Wann? Mr. Wann.—Details have been submitted to me of the allowances made against the original contract figure of £15,784 18s. 0d. We were allowed by the contractor for non-fabricated steel at the rate of £31 10s. per ton; partly fabricated steel at £2 per ton; wages and other expenses in connection with the structure were allowed to the extent of £300 and there were some smaller items also. The Commissioners were advised that the allowances made by the contractor were fair and reasonable in the circumstances. 482. Chairman.—What is the difference, Mr. Ó hEigceartuigh, between these phrases about fabricated steel, partly fabricated steel and non-fabricated steel? —Non-fabricated steel is the steel as it comes from the rolling mills. It is fabricated in the course of processing such as in the process of making trusses and the different components comprising the steel frame. When fabricated, it is cut to certain sizes and lengths; it is bored for nuts and bolts and in some cases two pieces are joined together by angles. Once you get interference with the mass steel bar, you destroy its value for any purpose except for the purposes for which it has been fabricated. 483. Deputy McGrath.—When was the scrap price of steel as low as £2 per ton? —I do not think I can answer that. 484. Chairman.—There was some of this steel which you retained, some which had been delivered to the site?—Yes, we retained that steel and transferred it to our central workshop. 485. Will you be able to find any use for it there?—Yes, we will find use for portions of it. We can use it for odd jobs. 486. I notice that you put a higher value on that steel than £2 per ton and yet it was completely fabricated steel?— We did, yes. 487. Why should it be valued at a higher price than the £2 per ton which was allowed to you by the contractor for the steel which he retained?—Well, the value which we placed on it was that which had been assessed by our engineers and I should say that the possibility is that the parts which were retained by the contractors were partly fabricated for larger construction work. They were probably of bigger sizes and, therefore, less likely to turn in handy for other purposes. 488. Deputy McGrath.—Surely you should at least have got steel scrap prices for it all. 489. Chairman.—Did you consider taking over all that partly fabricated steel? It would surely be worth more to you than the £2 per ton which you were allowed by the contractor? Mr. Ó hEigceartuigh.—Actually we advertised the lot for sale and we got no offers for it. We were not ourselves in a position to use it at the time. 490. The place you have, in fact, taken over for this central engineering workshop, is it much bigger than the premises you were proposing to erect at Clondalkin?—No. In the ultimate probably the Clondalkin buildings would have been larger. The advantage in the Inchicore premises was that they were ready to hand and we wanted a store and engineering workshop very badly. 491. You have a lease of the Inchicore premises for 50 years. What is the rent? —The rent for these premises is £13,500. 492. Does that include rates or not?— No. The rates so far as they will be payable will probably run to about £4,000 or £5,000. It is partly in the city and partly in the county. 493. Well, then, the Clondalkin site is still on your hands?—It is, yes. 494. What do you propose to do with that site?—At the moment we are in negotiation with the Post Office authorities who want it as a pole storage yard and a general store. 495. It would have been very well if they had already had it. How much did that site cost?—The Clondalkin site cost £2,640. 496. Was there any other expenditure over and above this £8,000?—There was. We put in certain development work on the site in preparation for the erection of the building. I think that the total expenditure on that was about £21,000. In fact, we will have to do a considerable amount more development work on the site for the Post Office people. 497. Have you any estimate of what the cost will be?—It has not been furnished to us yet. 498. At any rate, the development work should not turn out to be a total loss?— No, it should not. 499. Chairman.—Paragraph 13 of the Report states:— “Tenders for the reconstruction of a national school were received on the 1st December, 1949, and the lowest tender, £1,683 7s. 6d., was accepted on the 22nd March, 1950. The contractor was granted various extensions of time for the commencement of the work until the 3rd August, 1950, when he withdrew his tender. The Commissioners then decided to accept the next lowest tender of £1,952, and the work was completed in September, 1951, at a total cost of £2,067 14s. 3d. I have inquired whether any claim lay against the original contractor arising from his failure to carry out the contract.” Is there anything further to add to that, Mr. Wann? Mr. Wann.—I have been informed that because of the delay between the submission of the tender and its final acceptance the contractor assumed that he had not been successful and had, therefore, taken on other work. In these circumstances, he could not undertake to complete the work of building the National School within the time specified in the contract. As his tender was suitable in every respect and the Commissioners were anxious to retain his services, they tried to accommodate him by further extensions of the time for the completion of the building work. Eventually, however, he withdrew his tender and he was released from his contract and the tender of another contractor accepted. It appears that in the circumstances it was considered that no claim could be instituted against the original contractor. 500. Chairman.—What was the reason for the delay in the acceptance of the contract? Mr. Ó hEigceartuigh.—The main reason for the delay was that we had no money at the time. It was a year in which we had to ask for two Supplementary Estimates for this subhead. We had, in fact, two Supplementary Estimates that year. One Supplementary Estimate was taken fairly late so we had to postpone any commitments until we were able to pay for them. The tender was received on the 1st December. By that time we had a pretty good idea as to what the trend of expenditure was and the tender was not finally accepted until the 22nd March. That was done so that we would not have any commitments that we could not meet. It was really a policy of keeping within our Vote. 501. How much did you actually surrender that year?—I do not think that we surrendered very much under that subhead. I have not got the exact figures. 502. Did you not provide for this particular matter in the Supplementary Estimates?—There were two Supplementary Estimates that year, the first for something just over £100,000. I think it was general Government policy that the original Estimates should be kept to as closely as possible and we got strict directions not to undertake any commitments that we could not meet or that we could avoid. 503. The only thing that strikes me is that compared with other matters under this subhead this seems to me to be a rather minor matter, and it seems extraordinary that a loss should have been incurred?—There were a number of others held up, but this was the only case in which this contingency occurred. 504. How soon after taking on this type of tender is the first payment usually made?—Ordinarily speaking, the first payment would be made out of the amount of the local contribution. It would be charged against the local contribution which would have been collected from the manager in advance. The period at which we would start to make payments out of voted moneys would depend on the extent of the local contribution and the speed at which the contract was proceeding. The local contribution in the case of schools varies considerably and, of course, the speed at which the contractors get on with the works would also vary. 505. Chairman.—Paragraph 14 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads as follows:— “Subhead J.2.—Arterial Drainage— Construction Works. The expenditure on the Brosna and the Glyde and Dee catchment drainage schemes during the year amounted to £240,632 5s. 0d. and a sum of £80 15s. 6d. was expended on advertisements preliminary to the commencement of operations on the Feale catchment drainage scheme. The assessed value of the services rendered by the use of plant and machinery amounted to £115,831 14s. 2d. The total cost of the schemes to 31st March, 1951, including the assessed value of services rendered by plant and machinery, was as follows:—
Is there anything you wish to add to that, Mr. Wann? Mr. Wann.—No, that paragraph is for information. 506. Chairman.—Paragraph 15 of the Report reads:— “Subhead K.3.—Central Engineering Workshop and Stores. In the course of examination of the records of stores and equipment purchased in connection with the schemes undertaken under the Arterial Drainage Act, 1945, it was noted that a complete stocktaking had not been undertaken since 1947. I understand that the last inspection was due to be carried out in 1950 but was postponed pending the introduction of a new system of store accounting which is in progress. It was also observed that log books had not been maintained for certain road transport vehicles, and I was informed that difficulty had been experienced in procuring a sufficient supply of suitable books but that steps were being taken to have them issued for all vehicles.” Have you anything to add to that, Mr. Wann? Mr. Wann.—With regard to stocktaking, I understand that a complete stocktaking has been commenced quite recently and the results will be examined in the course of the next audit. In the absence of log books it is not possible to ascertain the running and maintenance costs of the various vehicles, but log books have now been issued for each vehicle and this matter also will come under investigation in the course of the next audit. 507. Chairman.—I assume, Mr. Ó hEigceartuigh, that you get these log books from the Stationery Office? Mr. Ó hEigceartuigh.—Yes. 508. It seems extraordinary that things like that which are in continuous use should run out of stock?—There have been great difficulties in getting printing done for a very long time in Dublin. 509. We notice that at the moment. Why has your stocktaking been cut out? —We are working by way of transferring physical materials into bins and details and ledger cards had to be made up for the various items. It is a very heavy job because the number of items dealt with has grown enormously. There were about 2,000 items in 1946-47 whereas to-day they run up to something over 20,000. It is a very big physical job, but we are working on it as quickly as we can. 510. The fact that you are going into new premises will probably be a great help?—Yes, one of the difficulties in Dún Laoghaire was that we had not half enough accommodation. That was one of the great difficulties. 511. Deputy Brady.—How often do you have stocktaking?—Normally we take stock once in every three years. 512. Deputy McGrath.—Does that apply to all the workshops or only to arterial drainage workshops? Does it apply, for instance, in Cork?—We have no works in Cork that I know of. As far as I know we have none at all. There is a small carpenter’s office there, but that actually does not carry any stores except a small quantity. 513. I do not think you could describe them as a small quantity?—There is not £200 worth of stores in the whole place. 514. I disagree with you there. There is often a lot more there. How often is stocktaking carried out there anyway?— It was checked up to my own knowledge within the last three months. 515. When was it taken before that?—I have no idea, Sir. I cannot tell you that offhand. 516. I would like to get some information as to the quantity of stock carried in the Cork office for each of the last seven or eight years?—There was a check made in the Cork office and that included the stock statements of the carpenter in charge. Do you want to know the amount of the stocks held in the Cork office? 517. Yes. I want to know what stocks were held there for each of the past seven years?—I will send that to you.* 518. chairman.—On subhead A.—Purchase of Sites and Buildings—we appear to have acquired quite a considerable building in London?—Yes, it is an extensive building. It houses the passport office, the embassy staff and the residence for the ambassador as well. 519. I take it that this figure of £78,451 has been in connection with the purchase of the building?—Yes, that is right. 520. What further expenditure is estimated for in connection with that matter?—A very extensive adaptation scheme had to be carried out in connection with those premises and then the place had to be furnished. The total estimated expenditure will be in the region of £100,000. Yes, that is right, it will be about £100,000. 521. Subhead B. deals with new works and alterations, and there are additions dealt with in a schedule which has been forwarded to each member of the Committee.† In general, Mr. Ó hEigceartuigh, under this subhead you had a very considerable saving?—We had, Sir, yes. In fact, some of the Departments, for instance, the Department of Justice, had a very small expenditure compared with the total amount of the Estimate. 522. How did that come about?—That arose from the fact that owing to the inquiry into the Garda Síochána services we have been building no new barracks. The only items of expenditure that occurred in this particular schedule were barracks that were in the course of building before the inquiry was started. That ban has not yet been relaxed to any considerable extent. 523. Has that materially altered your Estimate?—Well, we have provided in the coming year for a certain amount of building work. There are some more urgent cases which we really should have been working on before now. 524. I suppose a considerable amount of the sums provided in this Estimate are now regarded as capital?—Yes. 525. I was wondering with regard to the saving of £385,000 odd, how much of that would be related to the £800,000 and regarded as capital and how much to the £366,000 which you drew out of voted moneys?—The actual rate would be 1,001 over 1,234; that is a little less than five-sixths. I think, having regard to the big saving in schools, I would leave it at five-sixths. That five-sixths would probably be a fair estimate of what amount was capital. 526. That, of course, does not make any material difference when it is a matter that does not cause any unnecessary taxation?—It is a very difficult Estimate to prepare with accuracy because there are quite a large number of factors which are outside our control. As an interesting example of the difficulties in preparing the Estimate I may point out that in the year just concluded, it appeared to us up to December that we would have a very much smaller expenditure on schools than in the previous year, but in the last two months for some extraordinary reason the expenditure crept up. Weather, of course, has a lot to do with it, for if you run into bad building weather when you are estimating savings and excesses around October or November you run into very great difficulty in estimating accurately. 527. With regard to Garda barracks, No. 82, the Roscommon barracks, do you know if it has been decided whether or not that building is to be proceeded with? —I think it is pretty certain that it will be, but we have not yet got any instructions to go ahead with it. There was considerable expenditure in the preparation of the site and I have no doubt that Roscommon will be proceeded with since it is a very important centre. 528. Are you still proceeding with the provision of oil-burning heating equipment for Government buildings?—No, that has been stopped. I think it stopped over two or three years ago. 529. What method is now in vogue for central heating?—The ordinary hot water low pressure system heated by boilers, and in a number of buildings where it is suitable we are using electric storage heaters. 530. Is the Industry and Commerce building in Kildare Street heated with electric boilers?—Yes. That is heated by an unusual system. It has electric boilers which supply hot water to the circulating tank, and the heating pipes are embedded in the ceiling or in the floor whichever way you like to put it. 531. Is that system working satisfactorily?—So far it has not given any trouble. it has, however, one drawback and that is that when you get a sudden change of temperature up or down there is a time-lag. That is because of the very large quantity of water in the cylinders. 532. Deputy Brady.—What is the method of heating being used in Dáil Éireann itself?—It is mainly by oil fire boilers. There are at least two oil fire boilers in the battery here in this building and it is also partly hard fuel that is being used. * 533. Do you mean coal when you say hard fuel?—Yes. 534. Chairman.—You can tell that from the smoke that is being thrown up around the building. There is another matter, Mr. Ó hEigceartuigh, with regard to what you refer to as Minor Balances of Expenditure. I notice that some of the amounts are fairly considerable and that the work is still in progress. How do these items come to be entered in this particular section under No. 141 as Minor Balances of Expenditure? I would have thought that Minor Balances of Expenditure represent the final payment clearing the sum payable whereas here you say, that, particularly in regard to the Washington Legation, there was unexpended a sum of £2,500 out of a total expenditure of £10,000 and yet the work is still in progress?—That occurs when the work has not been specifically provided for in the Estimate, because at the time of the Estimate we expected that the work would be finished before the close of the financial year. It had to be carried over and as there was no specific provision for it in the details of the Estimate the expenditure would go into minor balances. In the ordinary course a sum of that size should not be in the items under minor balances. 535. Can you say in this particular case what was the total estimate?—No, I could not say that offhand but I think you may take it that it would not be much more than £10,000, which is shown in column 5. 536. It struck me as peculiar and that is why I mentioned it. Coming to subhead E.—Rents, Rates, etc.—I am afraid I do not understand why there could not have been a closer estimation than we have had?—In this particular year there were two factors contributing to that. One is that we had provided for the rent of the Inchicore premises and store which was expected to fall due during the year but owing to subsequent legal delays and other factors no payment was, in fact, made. Another factor was that the Department of External Affairs find it very difficult to supply their figures up to date and there is only three-quarters of the year provided in the Estimate for the Department of External Affairs included in this particular year’s rents. 537. Of course, the rent of the Inchicore premises was £13,500, and that makes a considerable difference?—It does, yes. 538. Dealing with subhead J.1— Arterial Drainage—Surveys—what is the position with regard to technical staffs? Has it improved very much since? It has improved somewhat in respect of civil engineers but we still have very great difficulty in improving the position so far as mechanical engineers are concerned. 539. If I remember correctly, mechanical engineers are slightly higher skilled than civil engineers?—They are, yes. 540. It struck me that it is a question of the money they are paid?—Yes. 541. Do they have to have a university degree?—They do, yes. 542. And they start at £350 a year?— I think it is a little more than that now. The scale is £380, rising by £26 to £800 for grade 3, which is the lowest grade. There is then a percentage increase which I think I am right in saying is 15 per cent. on the first £200 and then 10 per cent. on the balance. That would bring it up to about £420 or £430 at the start. 543. Are you able to get machinery more freely or is there still some difficulty?—There are still great difficulties in getting machinery from Great Britain. Suppliers are very slow and very often the machinery which you anticipate you will have ordered and paid for in a particular year does not arrive for a long time after the year has closed. The whole question with regard to machinery and parts is very difficult. 544. I take it that in preparing your Estimate you must anticipate that you are getting machinery?—We make the best guess we can as to the delivery. 545. I have great difficulty in understanding subhead K.3—Central Engineering Workshop and Stores—Mr. Ó hEigceartuigh. Is the amount that is actually spent in that department dependent very much on the amount of stores which come to hand? I notice that in the Estimate you expected that the value of the stocks at march 31st would be £142,000, whereas the Appropriation Account shows £60,000. Is the difference of £82,000 directly related to the £87,000 which was saved?—Not precisely. The big saving there was in non-supply of workshop plant and other items for which there was an estimate, I think, of £80,000. We did not find it possible to get in those supplies. It is an in-and-out subhead, as you know, and the value of the stores coming in and going out will affect it. It is a fluctuating estimate. The actual figures were, for workshop wages, £17,000, whereas the estimate for that was £20,000; the estimate for workshop plant and machinery was £80,000 and the expenditure was only £400. That means that the savings on the Vote were mainly due to the fact that we could not get the workshop plant and machinery which we had intended to buy. 546. Under subhead L.—Appropriations in Aid—Mr. Ó hEigceartuigh, you made a considerable amount beyond that anticipated. Did you secure extra property after this estimate was prepared?—No. There are two unusual items in that. One was that certain arrears of rent which we recovered we had expected to receive in the previous year and did not get it then. The other was that we sold No. 6 Hume Street to the Hume Street Skin and Cancer Hospital people, which brought in an unexpected fine of £7,000. 547. How did it arise that you sold a plot for £75 which was paid into extra receipts of the Exchequer? Do you now participate in selling bits and pieces here and there?—No. This is actually in a peculiar category. It was part of the Dún Laoghaire Harbour estate. It was a plot connected with the old quarry from which the stone for Dún Laoghaire harbour was originally drawn. It was sold pursuant to Section 2 of the Kingstown Harbour Act, 1876. It was quite an unusual transaction. 548. Deputy McGrath.—In places like Cork you give a lot of work to carpenters on a commission basis or a percentage basis. Is there any way in which there is a check kept on the goods got by that particular person to ensure that the material is used for the particular job concerned? —I understand in regard to that matter that when the goods are being obtained the order document has to be certified by the carpenter in charge or by the Clerk of Works. The materials and the work have to be checked by either of these two. If it so happens that there is any material left over it is taken back into stock and recorded. 549. Does the carpenter actually run any risk in getting the percentage on the quality of the work done?—The men are employed by an outside contractor but they work under the directions of our carpenter in charge. 550. What check is there on the carpenter in charge or on the Clerk of Works? Is there any check in connection with the materials bought for the different works or is there a check to ensure that these materials are used for the particular work for which they are purchased?—They are actually bought for that work against the checked orders and they are then put into the job under the directions of the Clerk of Works or of the carpenter in charge. 551. Are these men allowed to work for anybody else in that particular type of work?—They are not supposed to. 552. I know the rumour is going around Cork about these matters that it would be necessary to have some more systematic check on them.—I can only tell you that we have heard these rumours and we have had them closely investigated by two officers who were specially sent down from Dublin but we have not been able to find that there has been anything wrong. 553. I am afraid you sent them down too late.—I would not like to think that, because actually there had been a previous examination of that office in Cork a few years ago. 554. You are satisfied, then, that everything is all right?—So far as I can ascertain, it is. 555. Deputy Mrs. Crowley.—Mr. Chairman, in connection with the Bourn Vincent Memorial Park * I would like to ask Mr. Ó hEigceartuigh if he is satisfied that the deer are being kept under proper control and that there are not too many of them there? Is there much competition for deer-stalking there?—There has not been very much. We have had considerable difficulty in getting tenants for the deer-stalking but there is a fair amount of shooting done by our deer-keeper. 556. You do not think they are getting too numerous, because they seem to be spreading out into many places right over Kenmare and Blackwater and eating the farmers’ crops?—Of course, they are not really our property once they get out of our estate and I think anybody is entitled to shoot them if they are found to be trespassing. 557. Are they?—Yes, I think so, because they are regarded as vermin. 558. They are definitely destroying the lands of two farmers in Blackwater and there does not seem to be any way of dealing with them or keeping them in check except by shooting them.—So far as I know it is no offence to shoot them if they are trespassing. 559. Chairman.—There are various notes given in the column dealing with expenses. On page 22 I notice, Mr. Ó hEigceartuigh, in the second one a reference with regard to buildings transferred to Kilcar spinning mill, the details of which were in subhead B. You only show an expenditure of £2,775. I take it the transfer to Kilcar does not include the whole cost of this building?—No, that is why the note is here. 560. Under the former practice that note would have appeared at the bottom of the same page as the subhead?—No, Sir, I think not. To my recollection the former practice was that the notes followed the same style as here. 561. There used to be notes at the foot of the page giving details of how expenditure was segregated and showing the amount taken from stores?—yes, but this type of note was always in this form. 562. In note 14, page 23, there is an item for sales and leases of Government properties. There is one for a plot of ground at Roundwood Garda Station for an amount of £108. Was that plot sold? —Yes. The position there was that we had to buy a bigger site because we could not get a site of the size we wanted. We then bought a bigger area and we had an agreement with an adjoining owner that he would buy back from us the portion that we did not require. That was how that arose. 563. Note 15 deals with arrears of rent, What does that represent?—It represents three cases. One was the case of a man who owed a couple of years’ rent and who went out of the jurisdiction and, of course, we could not go after him. I have not got these amounts split up into the actual moneys concerned but the sums were not very large in any of the cases. That, however, was the fact in that particular case. In another we had the case of a gardener who had a market garden leased from us. He died and his widow tried to carry on for some time but the place was getting into a very bad state of repair and she had no money to do anything about it. In that case we just terminated the tenancy and forfeited the arrears. Then there was a third case. This was the case of a man whom we ejected from some stables but he insisted on remaining on there, and when we proceeded against him he had no money. 564. There is a reference in note No. 20 to a loss of £14 which was written off. Was that cash?—No. There were in Johnstown Castle certain electrical storage batteries which we offered for sale. They were bought and paid for and when the man who purchased them went to collect them they could not be found. The police were notified of the matter but we were not able to discover where the batteries went, and we still have no knowledge of where they went or how they went. We then had to pay the man back his money. 565. That is not, then, a case where you were actually restoring cash. I presume the original payment by this man would come in as Appropriation in Aid?—It would. 566. Then, when you were paying it back you had actually to charge it to some subhead. What head will you charge it to? Would you not have a losses subhead?—We do not run losses subheads. I think it would be paid out of Appropriations in Aid and deducted from the total. Thank you, Mr. Ó hEigceartuigh. The witness withdrew. VOTE 10—EMPLOYMENT AND EMERGENCY SCHEMES.Mr. R. Corish called and examined.567. Chairman.—Paragraph 16 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads as follows:— “Provision was made under subhead F. (Urban Employment Schemes) and subhead G. (Rural Employment Schemes) for grants towards expenditure by local authorities on road and amenity schemes, etc., for the provision of employment. The grants were paid in instalments, during the progress of the various works, by the Department of Local Government acting on behalf of the Special Employment Schemes Office. Accounts of the expenditure on the schemes are subject to examination by Local Government auditors, whose certificates are furnished to me in support of the charge to the Vote.” Have you anything to add to that Mr. Wann? Mr. Wann.—No. The paragraph is for information. 568. Chairman.—Paragraph 17 of the Report states:— “The expenditure charged to subhead H. (Minor Employment Schemes) and subhead I. (Development Works in Bogs used by Landholders and other Private Producers) related to schemes administered by the Special Employment Schemes Office. In some counties the schemes were carried out on its behalf by the county engineers, who account directly to the Special Employment Schemes Office for the expenditure incurred.” 569. What happened in the other counties, Mr. Corish?—We administered some of the counties through our own inspectors. 570. You did it directly?—Yes, directly, and they sent in their accounts, pay sheets and reports, etc., direct. 571. Did you do that because of some financial advantage or because the county engineers had not the time to do it?— Partly one and partly the other. In most cases the county managers or county engineers told us that they could not spare the time or spare their services for the work and we, accordingly, have taken over the schemes for a considerable part of the country into our own hands. 572. Are you able in cases like that to ensure that where work such as roads is being done there is full co-operation and co-ordination with the country work on roads?—Whatever co-ordination is necessary we get from the engineers. Our inspectors are generally on very good terms with the country engineers and with the council staffs, and they can arrange minor details amicably on the ground. 573. I presume that where the use of machinery is entailed you borrow it from the county council concerned?—Usually, where we have to use stone-crushing machinery or anything like that, we are accommodated by the county councils. In some of the counties there are contractors who do that type of work and we can hire plant in the open market, so to speak. Generally speaking, in most counties, however, the county councils co-operate to the best of their ability. We cannot, of course, expect them to hire to us machinery which they are using themselves. 574. Are the prices at which you can hire the machinery from the county councils at the same rate as they would be if they were using the machinery themselves?—We depend on our inspectors to tell us whether the charges are reasonable or not. They know exactly the charges that should be made. 575. Chairman.—Paragraph 18 of the Report reads:— “The charge to subhead J. (Reconditioning or Repair of Public Roads subject to Heavy Turf Transport) represents the balance of a grant on a scheme completed in a previous year.” Is there anything in that paragraph, Mr. Wann, which you wish to mention? Mr. Wann.—No, Sir. 576. Chairman.—Paragraph 19 reads as follows:— “The scheme for which provision was made under subhead K. (Rural Improvements Scheme) was mainly administered by the Special Employment Schemes Office either directly or through the agency of county engineers. Grants, usually 75 per cent. of the expenditure, were made towards the cost of works, for the joint benefit of groups of two or more farmers, consisting of accommodation roads to houses, farms and bogs, small drainage works (excluding field drains), roads which connect two count y roads, and the erection or reconstruction of small bridges. Only works which were estimated to cost not less than £40 were considered. With the authority of the Department of Finance the terms of the scheme were revised during the year under review and grants may now vary from 75 per cent. to 95 per cent of the cost of works, account being taken of the average poor law valuation of the lands served by each work and the number of beneficiaries, who contribute the balance of the cost. The expenditure during the year was not greatly affected by the new arrangements as most of the grants were sanctioned on the old basis. The gross amount expended was £111,079 9s. 11d. and cash contribution amounted to £23,611 9s. 7d., leaving the charge to the subhead £87,468 0s. 4d.” Have you anything to add, Mr. Wann? Mr. Wann.—The Paragraph is informatory. 577. Chairman.—We now come to paragraph 20 of the Report, which reads as follows:— “The amount charged to subhead L. (Miscellaneous Schemes) comprises mainly the cost of improvement works on small fishery harbours carried out by the Office of Public Works on behalf of the Special Employment Schemes Office, and the labour content of improvement works on small commercial harbours undertaken by the Office of Public Works on behalf of the Department of Industry and Commerce.” Have you anything to add, Mr. Wann? Mr. Wann.—No, Sir. 578. Chairman.—On the Vote itself, at page 26, do I take it, particularly under subheads F. and G., that the great saving in regard to sanitary service works arose because the rate of progress was slower than expected? Was that for reasons other than the change in the grant basis? Mr. Corish.—No, Sir. The savings in the sanitary services scheme were effected by the changes in the basis of the grants. Chairman.—Thank you, Mr. Corish. The witness withdrew. The Committee adjourned. |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
