Committee Reports > List of Committees > Dáil > 1952 > Committee of Public Accounts > Report - Appropriation Accounts 1950 - 1951

MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA

(Minutes of Evidence)

Dé Céadaoin, 2ú Iúil, 1952.

Wednesday, 2nd July, 1952.

The Committee sat at 11 a.m.

Mr. W. E. Wann (An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste), Miss Máire Bhreathnach and Mr. S. P. Ó. Muireadhaigh (An Roinn Airgeadais) called and examined.

VOTE 58—EXTERNAL AFFAIRS.

Mr. S. Nunan called and examined.

278. Chairman.—On subhead A.3.— Incidental Expenses—I notice that there is an excess in the Estimate. I notice that £1,600 extra was provided for postage over and above the previous year’s figure. Postage went up from £800 to £2,400, but in spite of that very sharp increase there is still an excess in postage. Could you let us have some idea as to what happened to cause this very great increase in postage?—The weekly bulletins we issue for transmission to the United States are sent by air mail. The air freight charges are very heavy. That accounted to a great degree for most of the increase.

The same type of note occurs in B.3 where it is said that the expenditure on postage, stationery and telegraphic and telephonic services was greater than anticipated. The Committee would prefer an explanation as to why these things happened rather than just a statement that they did.

279. With regard to subhead C.2.— Irish News Agency—are the payments to the Irish News Agency repayable advances?—Yes.

280. Have any repayments been made so far?—There have been no repayments.

281. Has any arrangement been made as to the terms under which repayments would be made? I think the Act provided that the terms would be arranged between the Minister for External Affairs and the Minister for Finance. Do you know if any agreement has been made?—I do not think that any agreement has been made. I understand that if a profit is made there will be repayments. They cannot make repayments until they make some money.

VOTE 59—EUROPEAN CO-OPERATION.

Mr. S. Nunan called.

No question.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 39—EDUCATION.

Micheál Breathnach called and examined.

282. Chairman.—Paragraph 46 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads as follows:

“Subhead D.—Expenses in connection with the Council of Education.

The Council of Education was established by the Minister for Education to advise him upon such matters relating to educational theory and practice as it might think fit and upon any educational questions and problems referred to it. A token sum of £5 was provided for this service in the Estimate and the expenditure of £606 7s. 1d. consisted mainly of an honorarium to the Chairman of the Council and travelling, etc., expenses of the members.”

Could you give us some idea as to the details of this expenditure?—There is the Chairman’s honorarium and travelling and maintenance expenses for the country members. Then they are treated to a lunch at the expense of the State when they have a meeting.

283. How many meetings have they? —They had seven meetings during 1950-51 and three to date in 1952. As you will remember, the Chairman died and that has held up the meetings since. A new Chairman has been nominated now and the Council will have a meeting this month.

284. There are 30 members?—There are 31 members plus the Chairman, and 13 of them live outside Dublin.

285. They had seven meetings. That is really not unduly expensive?—No, I do not think so.

286. Deputy Davin.—Did you get any report or recommendation from the Committee since it was set up?—Not yet. The Council invited by way of advertisement statements from persons interested in education. During the period of office of the former Minister for Education the invitations were sent out and quite a number of statements were received. They then invited a number of people to give evidence personally. They have only just completed the investigation of the various statements given verbally by people who came before them. They have just got that far and they have begun their report.

287. The first report?—Yes. It will probably be available by the end of this year.

VOTE 40—PRIMARY EDUCATION.

Micheál Breathnach further examined.

288. Chairman.—Paragraph 47 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General states:

“Subhead A.3.—Preparatory Colleges, etc.

The average boarding cost per student in the school year 1950-51 ranged from 14/9 to 18/1 per week as compared with 14/2 to 18/8 per week for the previous year. The average fee paid by the students was £19 12s. 2d. as compared with £18 19s. 1d. for the previous year.

Accounts have been furnished to me showing the receipts and expenditure for the school year 1950-51 in connection with the farms and gardens attached to the colleges. Four of the accounts disclose deficits and two show excesses of receipts over expenditure. Periodical inspections of the farms are carried out by officers of the Department of Agriculture, and their reports are available to me.”

Mr. Wann.—Two of the surpluses and two of the deficits were very small, and only amounted to a few pounds in each case. The other two deficits were fairly considerable, amounting to £182 for Coláiste Brighde and to £151 for Coláiste Muire.

289. Chairman.—Would Mr. Breathnach like to make any statement on this matter?

Mr. Breathnach.—I do not believe there is anything I could usefully say. Gains and losses with regard to farming are irregular, and depend upon a lot of circumstances with which I am not well acquainted. These farms are inspected very regularly and reports on each inspection are presented to us. It does not seem to me that there are any unusual circumstances involved, except the ordinary ups and downs of farming.

290. Coláiste Ide showed a gain of £16 which, admittedly, is very little when Coláiste Brighde showed a loss of £482, did you not think that it was a matter which called for consideration?—The farms may have had to renew their stock of farm implements or, perhaps, in any one year, they may have had to replace their stock of cows and other animals. Coláiste Brighde is supplied with milk from its own farm. That is the only supply available to the College.

291. I think we will all have to admit that farming is a very chancy business, though some of the city Deputies might not agree on that?—Yes, farming is very chancy. These farms are not like ordinary ones; they have to be worked whether or not conditions are favourable, because the colleges must be supplied with vegetables and milk.

I would like to pursue you on that subject but, perhaps, it is a bit too wide for me?—I do not believe I would be able to follow you, because you know a lot more about the subject than I do.

292. Deputy Palmer.—With regard to subhead A.1.—Training Colleges—might I ask if the increase has anything to do with the setting up of the new training college to which the Minister referred recently?—It has not.

293. Have any expenses been incurred in connection with that so far?—No.

294. It will not be set up this year, I take it?—I would not be in a position to say, but I am not too sanguine about it.

295. On subhead C. 6, there are many complaints in connection with grants for the heating and cleaning of schools. Is it not rather strange that the money allocated was not expended?—As the Deputy is aware, the money has to be applied for. Vouchers for local expenditure must accompany the application. We cannot pay what has not been applied for.

296. Do all managers apply for the grant?—Sometimes there is an odd manager who does not apply.

297. What is done in that case?—We conclude that, if the manager does not apply for the grant, he does not want it and that he is prepared to bear all the expenditure himself. There is a possibility that a manager can get in kind all the fuel required for heating a school. We can only pay when there is cash expended.

298. Where a manager does not make an application on the usual form sent to him, would it not be wise, perhaps, to send him a reminder? Managers, like everybody else, are a bit forgetful and, maybe, a bit careless?—Our inspectors visit the schools every year, and if there was anything wrong with the heating arrangements it would be reported.

299. What is done if such a report is submitted?—The manager is then communicated with and the position put to him. Forms are issued to every manager.

300. Deputy Davin.—They all know about it anyhow?—They do.

301. Chairman.—With regard to subhead C.7.—Teachers’ Residences—I would have thought it would have been possible to get a reasonably close estimation with regard to the payment of moieties?

Deputy Palmer.—Does this subhead refer to grants for the repair of residences?

Chairman.—No.

Mr. Breathnach.—The subhead deals with the payment of the State moiety. £12 per year has to be paid on residences. Half of the amount is paid by the State and half locally. We do not pay our half until we are assured that all other expenses are cleared and that the place is in a proper state of repair. One of the conditions laid down is that the residence must be kept properly repaired.

302. Deputy Palmer.—The old school residences built years ago are scarcely the property of the Department of Education any longer. They could be called Church property?—A loan of £250 was granted for the building of these old residences at an interest rate of 5 per cent. The yearly repayment amounts to £12 10s. The Department pays £6 5s. and £6 5s. is paid locally. The duration of the loan was to be 35 years, and in a lot of cases it has not been paid off yet. The Department does not pay its moiety until it gets a clear account in regard to the local commitment, that is rates and the moiety. As I said already, one of the conditions laid down is that the residence must be kept properly repaired.

303. Who is responsible for the local moiety? Is it the manager?—Yes.

304. It is nominally the manager?— I find it very difficult to say who is responsible locally. The local people are responsible through the manager.

305. Of course, the teacher is the person who is eventually responsible?—The responsibility lies between the teacher and the manager.

306. Chairman.—Most of these loans must have been paid off by now?—There are only about fourteen cases still outstanding.

307. There were 875 residences provided by loan?—The number provided by loan was 875 and the number provided by grant was 51.

308. Was there not a considerable amount outstanding on subhead C.8.— Bonus to Parents or Guardians of Certain Pupils in the Gaeltacht and Breac-Ghaeltacht—from the previous year? The explanation given for last year’s saving was that three inspectors had been on special duty and had not been able to get the accounts in?—I think I explained that there was difficulty in winding up the work in any particular year, because two of the factors that determine the award of the grant are regular attendance and satisfactory progress. These things cannot be estimated until the school year is over. Therefore, a grant cannot be awarded until the end of the school year. As I stated last year, the inspectors’ work is very heavy. This fact causes a bit of delay, but all who qualify for a grant get it eventually.

309. I was not querying that. I was referring to the fact that this year the estimation was very, very close, and that that is a bit illusory?—The estimation was close this year.

310. Deputy Mrs. Crowley.—On subhead C.9.—Holiday Scholarships in Gaeltacht (Grant-in-Aid)—who can qualify for these scholarships? Is it only children from special areas?—No, where there is a local committee which is prepared to collect money themselves, a grant is made on a £1 for £1 basis, but the children must be of certain ages, from 11 to 14. If there is a local committee and the local committee is prepared to collect money for the purpose the Department will give £ for £ on the basis of the money collected locally, but there must be a local committee. In 1950-51 we had committees in Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Dundalk and 383 children were sent to the Gaeltacht in that year.

311. Chairman.—On subhead C.10.— Grants towards the Cost of Free School Books for Necessitous Children—could you tell us how the grants are arrived at? Is it based on the number of necessitous children in a school?—The grant is given in areas where 50 per cent. of the children are regarded as necessitous. The manager selects the beneficiaries. In the city there are forms sent to the parents but in the country it is left to the manager and the teachers. The only basis on which one can make an estimate is the expenditure from year to year. In any particular year you have to base your estimate on the expenditure of the previous year.

312. How much would the grant be per child?—It applies only to children from second class upwards. I think it is 8d. per pupil ordinarily and in the Gaeltacht, Breac-Ghaeltacht and city areas, at the discretion of the Minister for Education, it may be raised to 1/4 per child.

313. Deputy Davin.—Does the excess on subhead D.—Superannuation, etc., of Teachers—arise in any way out of the application of the Roe Commission award?—The Roe Commission award was never implemented.

314. I do not understand the position in regard to the grant of lump sums to women teachers. Would you elaborate a little on that?—It merely means that a new feature was introduced into the superannuation scheme for primary teachers whereby women teachers are granted a lump sum on retirement. They did not have a lump sum before that.

315. I asked that question, Mr. Chairman, because we are all aware that agitation is in progress for the provision of a lump sum for male teachers as well as women teachers.—But the male teachers have a lump sum. Those who retired before 1st January, 1950, had no lump sum. It was introduced from 1st January, 1950.

316. You are aware we are getting reminders about that every day?—I am very much aware of it.

317. On the training of teachers, No. 3 in the Appropriations in Aid—Recovery of training college fees advanced to necessitous students—I notice that the estimated amount is very closely related to the amount realised so that it looks as if they set out at the beginning of the year to secure a certain figure. I would like my education to be improved on the question as to how you justify the recovery of training college fees from students who are described as necessitous. What is the nature of the means test?

Chairman.—That is by authority of the Dáil, Deputy.

Deputy Davin.—It is a matter of administration.

Chairman.—I cannot agree with you. If you look at your Book of estimates you will find that the Dáil ordered it.

Deputy Davin.—But the Dáil did not order a means test, as far as I know.

Chairman.—All we are concerned with is that the Dáil said this was to be done and was it done?

Deputy Davin.—It did not lay down any particular means test. Is not that in the hands of the teachers?

Chairman.—It would not be in the hands of this Committee. As far as I recollect from previous years the money is recovered after they become teachers.

Deputy Davin.—I am well aware it is not in the hands of the Committee, but this Committee is entitled to be informed as to the type of means test to be applied.

Chairman.—You mean the people who get the grants?

Deputy Davin.—I cannot understand why anything should be recovered from a student who is described as necessitous.

Mr. Breathnach.—It is not recovered from them while they are necessitous. They are to refund it when they are earning.

318. Deputy Davin.—After they leave the college?—There is a fee that each student has to pay to the training college. If a student is represented as being necessitous and not able to pay that in full or in part, the Department advance to the training college the deficit on the consideration that the particular student will refund at the rate of not less than £10 a year when he or she becomes a teacher and is earning. It is not required from them while they are necessitous.

Deputy Davin.—The Accounting Officer, Sir, has improved my education.

319. Deputy Palmer.—I would say they are still necessitous when they are teaching.

Mr. Breathnach.—It does not make such a terrible lot of difference whether they are really necessitous or not because in any case they will have to pay it back.

320. Deputy Davin.—I was under the impression that this was extracted from them while they were in a state of necessity?—If that were the case it would be easier to make them pay the full fee.

321. Deputy Palmer.—All the money advanced is not recovered. For instance, if a lady teacher retires soon after she commences to teach you have no means of recovering anything from her except for the few years she was teaching.—We lose occasionally.

322. Chairman.—You could not recover out of this lump sum?—If we are not paid before the lump sum arises it would be just as well to let it go. That only arises when they are retiring.

323. I gather from the note on page 104 that the amount you lose is not very great?—It is surprisingly little.

324. I notice there is a decrease in the number of candidates coming forward for training. Has the position improved there at all?—As far as I know, our training colleges are full to capacity. I understand that the decrease in the number of candidates applies to 1950 only, and that the number has gone up considerably, possibly due to the improved conditions.

325. Deputy Palmer.—But you have not a sufficient number of trained teachers?—No, we have not. That is due principally to the fact that we have no machinery for training any more.

326. Deputy Davin.—This figure under Part (9) of the Appropriations in Aid is also a very close estimate. Will that be a recurring figure for an indefinite period?—Yes. We have had that income every year. Naturally there would be income from this subhead every year.

327. Deputy Palmer.—On page 105— Killury or Nelan Fund—this is a sum of money which, I understand, was left by a deceased parish priest to be invested and to be used for the maintenance of that school. That school is now very old, having been built over 100 years ago, and it is no longer fit for repair. I wonder what is the sum with interest accrued that would be in that fund?—It is in the account—£1,500.

328. In connection with the building of the new school, could that sum be appropriated as a local contribution to help to build a new school?—I am afraid that is a legal question. That would depend upon the nature of the trust. It says the income is to be applied towards the maintenance of the Killury National School. I would not be able to decide whether it could be legally applied to the building of a new school, but I have a notion that the parish priest is of opinion that it could.

I have the same notion. That is why I asked the question.

Deputy Davin.—It would be very dangerous to challenge his decision in the matter.

329. Deputy Palmer.—How will that question be decided?

Mr. Breathnach.—I am sure legal advice will have to be sought on the terms of the trust.

330. Will it be the business of the Department or of the manager to prove that he is entitled to use is as a local contribution?—I am sure the law officers on both sides will have something to say about it.

I hope the costs will not be taken out of the fund.

VOTE 41—SECONDARY EDUCATION.

Micheál Breathnach called.

No question.

VOTE 42—TECHNICAL INSTRUCTION.

Micheál Breathnach called.

No question.

VOTE 43—SCIENCE AND ART.

Micheál Breathnach further examined.

331. Chairman.—Paragraph 48 of the Comptroller and Auditor General’s Report which is of an informatory character, reads as follows:

“Subhead B.16.—Exhibition of Pictures on their Presentation to the Nation by Mr. Alfred Chester Beatty.

This special subhead was opened with the sanction of the Department of Finance to bring to account expenditure on photographs which were included in a catalogue for an exhibition of the Chester Beatty collection of paintings at the National Gallery. The cost of printing the catalogue, £168 8s. 7d., was charged to subhead G. of the Vote for Stationery and Printing (No. 24), and receipts from sales amounting to £100 16s. 6d. were credited as Appropriations in Aid of that Vote during the year under review. A further sum of £17 12s. 6d. will be brought to account in the year 1951-52.”

332. On the Vote itself, under subhead A.6.—Purchase of Books, etc. (Grant-in-Aid)—this deduction was one that was agreed upon in the previous year when this special subhead was opened?—Yes.

333. At the time of the special subhead it was agreed the amount would be less this year?—That is so.

334. I notice in the notes at page 121 that seventy obsolete exhibition cases were loaned from the National Museum to certain places?—Yes.

335. Did you not consider selling them at some nominal figure instead of lending them? Since they are obsolete it seems a curious method to adopt because strictly speaking they are still subject to inspection by some State official. I do not say that such inspection will take place but, strictly speaking, it ought to be made whereas if they had been sold for some nominal figure we would be finished them once and for all. In fact, I take it we are finished with them?— There was no suggestion from the Museum or from anybody else as to their sale or purchase.

336. It strikes me it would be a more sensible procedure to sell them. If they are absolete I take it there is no intention of getting them back again?—This loan is regarded as a sort of friendly gesture towards encouraging the establishment of museums in these places, and possibly the Museum officials did not like to introduce a question of a money payment into the matter. The Museum is anxious that there should be small museums of this kind in the schools, and I think it was for that reason that they did not introduce any question of money. They would prefer to keep on a sort of friendly basis in dealing with anybody who is anxious to establish a local museum.

337. I can understand that. but a purely nominal figure which would have ended the matter as far as the State is concerned might have been preferable. These cases still remain the property of the State and whoever looks after these things ought stricly speaking to go and look at them?—The amount that would accrue from the sale of these would be so small that it would hardly be worth while introducing the sordidness of a money payment into the friendly relations that exist between the Museum officials and these schools. The Museum itself is, of course, the recipient of a considerable number of loans without payment.

338. That is so, but those loans are in the nature of things for inspection and not merely furniture as it were?—Yes.

339. I am not suggesting that we should have looked for money in the sense of some valuable consideration. I merely suggest that some nominal figure might have been arranged in order to finish the matter and not have State property lying about still nominally in charge of some official but in practice not looked after?—That is a point of view. I do not know how far it would commend itself to the officials in the Museum, and naturally I shall have to consult them in the matter. It is a point of view that might be put to them.

340. I think it would be better because this is obviously stuff that we will never need. It would be more desirable to have the matter finally cleared off?—I shall put that point of view to them.*

341. Deputy Palmer.—In connection with subhead B.15, if an Irish newspaper publishes current news in Irish does it qualify for a grant?—There are regulations governing the amount that is published. One small paragraph in Irish would not qualify them for a grant. There are stringent regulations as to the amount they must publish before they qualify.

342. Deputy S. Collins.—Is it governed by space?—Yes.

343. Deputy Palmer.—It is rather strange that they should get a State grant for doing it?—I take it it is to encourage them to publish matter in Irish.

Chairman.—The Deputy can raise that with the Minister. On the following pages there are details of the Grants-in-Aid under various bequests.

VOTE 44—REFORMATORY AND INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS.

Micheál Breathnach further examined.

344. Chairman.—Paragraph 49 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads as follows:

“Subhead G.—Appropriations in Aid.

Section 75 (7) of the Children Act, 1908, as amended by Section 22 (d) of the Children Act, 1941, provides for the apportionment between the Minister for Education and the responsible local authority, in such proportions as the Minister for Education with the consent of the Minister for Finance directs, of all contributions by parents, etc., under Section 75 (7), as amended, towards the cost of maintenance of a youthful offender or child ordered to be sent to and detained in a certified school.

Prior to the 1st July, 1950, it was the practice to apportion equally only those sums received from parents under Court Maintenance Orders. The law officers have, however, advised that all payments made to the Inspector of Reformatory and Industrial Schools or to local authorities towards the support of children in certified schools are apportionable between the Minister for Education and the local authorities concerned. Accordingly, as from the 1st July, 1950, all such payments, whether received by the Inspector of Reformatory and Industrial Schools or by local authorities, are subject to apportionment and sums amounting to £5,067 10s. 10d. were remitted to local authorities in the year under review. There were no receipts from local authorities during the year, but I understand that they were requested in October, 1951, to furnish particulars of any contributions received by them since the 1st July, 1950.”

Can you say if any receipts have since come from the local authorities?—Yes, about £200.

345. Is the amount provided for in the Vote under subhead E. the only cost of collection of the moneys?—It is the only cost for which we are responsible.

346. There are no other fees deducted by anyone out of any of these moneys that you know of?—I do not think so. The Gardaí collect fees and get a commission of 20 per cent. on the gross collection in the country. There is a special collector in Dublin and he gets a commission of 25 per cent.

347. Does the amount under subhead E. include the 20 per cent. commission which the Gardaí in the country get?— Yes.

348. I take it that the total amount that came in in Appropriations in Aid must have been somewhere about £17,000 and the collection expenses are about £800?—Yes.

349. There is no relationship there which would suggest either 20 per cent. or 25 per cent.?—We receive a lot more than we receive from court orders made here. We get payment under the Widoows’ and Orphans’ Pensions Act and allowances from the British Defence Departments and the British Ministry of-Pensions. There is also a little under the head of moneys invested on behalf of children in schools.

350. Deputy S. Collins.—These are all paid in direct, not to any collector?— Yes.

351. That is where the discrepancy arises?—Yes.

VOTE 45—DUBLIN INSTITUTE FOR ADVANCED STUDIES.

Micheál Breathnach further examined.

352. Chairman.—I take it that the accounts of the Institute are audited? Do they come to you, Mr. Wann?

Mr. Wann.—Yes. As a matter of fact, the last account audited was for the year 1947-48. The accounts for the following year, 1948-49, reached me in March, 1951. Certain queries are still outstanding and the audit cannot be completed. I have not yet got the accounts for the two following years.

353. Chairman.—Could you tell us, Mr. Breathnach, why the presentation of these accounts is so long delayed?

Mr. Breathnach.—I could not in a detailed way. I could tell you that we have asked for them often enough.

353. Chairman.—I take it that you will press again?—Yes. We keep pressing until we get them.

It is certainly unsatisfactory that there should be such a marked delay. I thought local authorities were bad enough, but this is certainly very much worse.

354. Deputy S. Collins.—Is there any insurmountable barrier, any peculiar difficulties, that would justify this inordinate delay?—Except the peculiar difficulty, I suggest, that arises in connection with institutes of higher learning.

355. Can they not employ an ordinary mundane accountant?—I fancy that if one went in there mundane he would not remain mundane there long.

356. We take it it is more or less on the style, say, of the absentminded professor. Would that be the explanation? —I suppose so.

Deputy Davin.—This is the justification for a brains trust.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 24—STATIONERY AND PRINTING.

Mr. J. B. Carr called and examined.

357. Deputy Davin.—In regard to subhead F.2.—Oireachtas Debates—I would like to ask the Accounting Officer whether there is any limitation or restriction on the number of copies printed and the cost of printing any particular number of copies for issue to Eason’s and people of that kind, for sale in the city and country. I have received a number of complaints from citizens who cannot readily secure copies of the Official Debates. That is why I ask this question?—Ordinarily we print about 850 copies. Several of them have to go to the Dáil. A number go to Government Departments. We have regular subscribers from the Publications Sale Office, through whom we sell them. Normally we do not print more than 850 unless there is some special debate, in which case we do not hesitate to print whatever number is required. Any bookseller can arrange by note to the Sale Office to get whatever number of copies would be required. I would be very glad to see that they got them if there was any demand. The moment there is any demand we run off additional copies.

358. The number appears to be limited in some way to the number of advance orders. Is that so?—Yes, that is so— 850 to be precise. We print off that number every day but if there is a special debate or a special run on the debates, immediately the manager in charge of the Sale Office reports it and we direct Cahills, the printers, to run off an additional number. We continue to repeat that order so long as there is any demand.

359. What would the additional cost be of printing double the number that you mentioned if they were printed at the same time?—The additional cost of running off is very little. The cost in respect of paper is negligible. Setting is the principal thing. The machining and the paper are negligible compared with the original cost. We print 850 as a rule because experience has shown that there is not a greater demand. We raised it by 50 for the last few months and we had raised it by 50 a couple of months before. As soon as there is any sign of public interest we immediately increase the number. Over and above that, if there is a demand for a special debate, such as the debate on the Finance Bill, we are only too happy to run off additional copies.

360. I would like, with your approval, Mr. Chairman, and the approval of the Committee, to encourage the Accounting Officer, who I know is anxious to do the right thing, to popularise the procedure of the people’s Parliament.

Chairman.—It is the citizens you would need to encourage, not the Accounting Officer.

Deputy Davin.—If citizens cannot get copies, that is not the fault of the Accounting Officer if he is restricted to printing a particular number, and if they cannot get copies when they want them the citizens will not waste their time in future in looking for copies.

Chairman.—I am sure the Accounting Officer would like to know that there is a demand.

Mr. Carr.—We are not restricted. We could, say, print 2,000 or 3,000 copies if the demand is there. Normally we sell them through the Sale Office. To do what the Deputy suggests we would have to put them on display at railway stations and such places. That point, I confess, has not been considered. Our experience is that there has not been that demand up to the present.

361. Deputy Davin.—If the Chairman of this Committee made speeches from time to time they would be purchased at Eason’s bookstall in his constituency, if they were available.

Chairman.—I should hope not.

Deputy Davin.—I am seriously suggesting that the Accounting Officer should not be tied in this matter because, as he now indicates, the additional cost of printing double the number at the same time is very small.

Deputy S. Collins.—I think his hands are tied.

Mr. Carr.—No, Sir, they are not. It is a matter for me to determine. It depends entirely on the demand. We may raise the number as the demand shows signs of increasing. I have given instructions to print an additional 50 copies per day and a few months before that I had the number increased by 50. I would not hesitate for a moment to increase the number if the demand exists. I would be only too glad to sell them.

362. Deputy Davin.—What percentage of the average number printed would be allocated to booksellers at the principal railway stations or to Eason’s Dublin, for instance?—At the moment none, Sir.

363. Deputy S. Collins.—They are all sold through the Publications Sale Office?—Yes, through the Publications Sale Office in the G.P.O. Arcade. They are also sent direct to regular subscribers. We do not put them on sale at bookstalls but any local bookseller requiring copies for a customer would be immediately supplied with copies if he sent us a note.

364. Chairman.—If Eason’s, for instance, asked you for copies you could supply them?—We would be glad to do it, on the usual trade terms.

365. Deputy S. Collins.—The present position is that normally they are not sold other than to the regular subscribers or through the medium of the Government Publications Sale Office?— There is no means of doing it. It is stated on the face of the debates that they can be obtained direct from the Government Publications Sale Office or through any bookseller. That applies to all our publications. Any local bookseller can get our publications for a customer. We would be very glad to let him have them and to give him the usual trade discount.

366. I merely wanted to find out what the normal situation is. It is that, in general, any Statutory Orders, Bills or Dáil Debates that are looked for are, in the main, obtained through the Government Publications Sale Office. The distribution of Dáil publications through newsvendors would be very small?— Very small. We have done it recently with some Irish books where we had reason to think they might have an appeal in certain local areas. We arranged with Eason’s to put them on sale at bookstalls.

367. Deputy Davin.—Do you send any copies of the Debates to English-speaking Parliaments?—Yes, Sir, we do.

Deputy S. Collins.—There is an interchange of debates?—Yes.

Deputy Davin.—I wanted to be sure of that.

368. Chairman.—With regard to item 5 of the Appropriations in Aid, where you had a surplus of over £1,000, is that not associated with subhead I?— In the Supplementary Estimate you made provision for an extra £25,500 for subhead I but you do not make provision for any increase on the sale of old typewriters. Would you not expect that if you were buying new typewriters you would be selling more old ones?—We bought a number of new typewriters for reserve purposes and at about the same time we found it necessary to replace a large number of typewriters throughout the Departments. We have been carrying out a census of machinery in all Departments which disclosed that there are some very ancient machines about and, as a result of pressure by the Departments, we had to replace them.

369. Why, when you were looking for extra money under Subhead I, did you not take into account an extra receipt under item 5 of the Appropriations in Aid? You did expect an increase in the various other items of the Appropriations in Aid. I thought that L.5 and I would reflect one another?—When we took the Supplementary Estimate the intention was more to lay in stock for reserve purposes. There had been difficulty in getting office supplies generally prior to that. The situation became easier at this period and as the Departments had been pressing pretty strongly to replace old machines we had to do it, so that it was really fortuitous.

370. Deputy Mrs. Crowley.—Does subhead J include the binding of the registers of births, deaths and marriages?— Yes, it does.

371. Would it not be possible to bind the birth registers in stronger material because these are the registers most used for old age pensions and that sort of thing? The marriage and death registers are bound very strongly and they are hardly used at all. The birth registers are bound in very flimsy material?—I will attend to that.

372. Would it not be possible to change over?—The matter has not been brought to my notice personally, I confess, but I will look into it and I can have it done. If there is need for it, there is no reason why there should not be a proper binding. I will attend to that.

In the registry office that I know the birth registers are bound very flimsily and they come to pieces, as they are being used constantly?—I will make inquiries about that.

The witness withdrew.

The Committee adjourned.

* See Appendix XII.