Committee Reports > List of Committees > Dáil > 1951 > Committee of Public Accounts > Report - Appropriation Accounts 1949 - 1950

MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTN

(Minutes of Evidence)

Dé Céadaoin, 24ú Deireadh Fómhair, 1951.

Wednesday, 24th October, 1951.

The Committee sat at 2.30 p.m.

Mr. W. E. Wann (An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste), Miss Maire Bhreathnach and Mr. M.Breathnach (An Roinn Airgeadais) called and examined.

VOTE 45—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION.

Micheál Breathnach called and examined.

314. Chairman.—On subhead A.3—Incidental Expenses—I notice that the excess is partly due to the purchase of a radiogram. What use does the Department make of it?—The radiogram cost £108, including the aerial. The Minister of the time decided that it would be advantageous for himself and his officials to listen to, say, school broadcasts from other countries and to test out gramophone records that might be recommended to Radio Eireann for midday transmission when the school children might be listening. Of course, I should say that it is almost a necessity for a Minister for Education to have his ear in to what is going on in other countries educationally; and very frequently in time he would be attending in the office there might be very interesting broadcasts on educational subjects.

315. We may take it that there is nothing frivolous about it?—Yes.

316. On subhead D—Appropriations in Aid—the details on page 142 show repayment “on account” of the salary of an officer. Does that mean there is some further sum due?—There may be some further sum incurred, if it is continuous.

VOTE 46—PRIMARY EDUCATION.

Micheál Breathnach, further examined.

317. Chairman.—The first sub-paragraph of paragraph 47 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads as follows:—

“Subhead A.3—Preparatory Colleges, etc.

The average boarding cost per student in the school year 1949-50 ranged from 14/2 to 18/8 per week as compared with 14/2 to 19/6 per week for the previous year. The average fee paid by the students was £18 19s. 1d. as compared with £17 13s. 2d. for the previous year.”

Mr. Wann.—It will be seen that the average cost per student compares favourably with the preceding year.

318. Chairman.—The paragraph continues:—

“Accounts have been furnished to me showing the receipts and expenditure for the school year 1949-50 in connection with the farms and gardens attached to the colleges. Five of the accounts disclose deficits and one shows an excess of receipts over expenditure. Periodical inspections of the farms are carried out by officers of the Department of Agriculture, and their reports are available to me.”

Mr. Wann.—The deficits ranged from £3 for Coláiste Muire to £198 at Coláiste Brighde. The deficit at Coláiste Brighde is explained as due to restocking and the purchase of additional artificial fertilisers recommended by the Department of Agriculture inspectors. The surplus occurred at Coláiste Ide and amounted to £119.

319. Chairman.—On subhead A.1— Training Colleges—has there been any improvement in the number of teachers? I see here that the number of students was less than anticipated. Has there been. any improvement in the numbers coming forward?

Mr. Breathnach.—The Colleges are practically full to capacity this year and have been every year since then.

320. On subhead A.4—Grants to Colleges providing Courses in Irish for Primary Teachers—that reflects a change also. For some years there has been a falling off in the number of teachers?—There was an increase in the year 1949-50, but nothing very considerable. The estimate was reduced from the previous year, when it was £1,000. It was reduced a bit too low.

321. On subhead C.4—Incidental Expenses—is there any improvement in the question of rural science equipment?—I think they have all been got since. There are 80 sets available now. There was a hold-up for quite a while but it has been cleared off.

322. On subhead C.5—Free Grants of School Requisites—does this item show an improvement?—Maps are still difficult to obtain and blackboards also.

Deputy Davern.—Maps are inclined to change rather quickly.

Chairman.—I suppose no one is too keen on making maps at the moment.

323. Deputy Palmer.—Who pays for the maps and school requisites?—When a new school is going into operation or when a school is considerably enlarged or reconstructed, there is a stock given, but after that it has to be supplied by the manager.

324. Is it not the teacher who in fact has to make the purchases and pay for them?—That is a matter between the teacher and the manager.

325. Chairman.—On subhead C.7— Teachers’ Residences—what about those cases which are not cleared up in the year? Can they be cleared later?—Yes, if all the conditions are fulfilled satisfactorily.

326. Lateness in making a claim does not invalidate them?—No

327. On subhead C.8—Bonus to Parents or Guardians of certain Pupils in the Gaeltacht and Breac-Ghaeltacht—what happens in this case where reports are late?—Reports are inevitably late. The inspection referring to any particular school year cannot be made until the beginning of the next school year as certain of the conditions could not be tested properly until the school year is at an end. The pupils must attend regularly and progress satisfactorily. The inspector could not decide on that until the school year is at an end. He cannot make an examination of the pupils until the beginning of the next year so there is always a time lag.

328. I take it that in this particular year there were special circumstances over and above the ordinary delay?—We had reduced the inspection staff engaged on that very largely to the three Gaeltacht inspectors. Each has to cover a very wide area and although assisted by other inspectors there was a very considerable volume of work thrown on to each of them and it took them some time to get through it.

329. But no one would lose a grant?— No.

330. Deputy Gallagher.—Regarding subhead C.9—Holiday Scholarships in Gaeltacht (Grant-in-Aid)—the note says that only four committees functioned?— That is Coiste na bPaisdí.

331. I am speaking about Dublin. I do not know about the country. I thought they were active in Dublin City?—We are dependent on local committees.

332. You had only four?—Yes, as compared with seven in the year before.

VOTE 47—SECONDARY EDUCATION.

Micheál Breathnach further examined.

333. Chairman.—Would you mind expanding the note in regard to subhead B.1. I am afraid I cannot quite follow it?—You mean the Incremental Salary Grant? There is only a certain number of teachers in each secondary school that qualifies for an incremental salary grant. It is based on the number of pupils, so many teachers to so many pupils. The number who will qualify in that way may vary from year to year.

334. How did it happen that there were more pupils under subhead A.1— Capitation Grant (including Teachers’ Salaries Grant)—and fewer teachers?— We estimated too high really. It is very hard to estimate accurately in cases where pupils fluctuate from year to year and where the number of teachers qualified for the grant fluctuate from year to year. It is a complicated business and it might work out in peculiar ways.

335. It appears here that the number of pupils is greater than was anticipated and the number of teachers must have gone down to an even greater degree proportionately?—There might be schools that could absorb a great many pupils without increasing the quota.

336. With regard to subhead C—Examinations—does the note in reference mean that you attend the examinations?— There has to be an attendant available to the superintendent always.

337. With regard to subhead G—Payment to the Secondary Teachers’ Pension Fund—was there no payment to the fund? —The pension fund is contributory. Both the school and the teachers have to contribute and if the contributions equal the expenditure there will be no payment from the State.

338. On subhead H—Appropriations in Aid—I suppose the difficulty about printing still exists?—Yes, it does, sir. We are hoping it will not be as serious as it used to be. We are making a push at the moment to get more texts and general literature published.

VOTE 48—TECHNICAL INSTRUCTION.

Micheál Breathnach further examined.

339. Chairman.—Your estimation was very accurate, Mr. Breathnach?—In the case——

On the whole Vote for Technical Instruction?—Yes. A good deal of that is based on the provision made by the local authorities and that is fairly precise.

We do not often praise but—thank you.

340. With regard to note (2) on subhead I—Appropriations in Aid—page 160, I could not understand how the course in Irish Drama should arise under Technical Instruction. It would seem to me that it would be more appropriate to include it in the next Vote—Science and Art?— The Vocational Education Branch run special courses themselves. A special part of the function of the Vocational Education Branch is to forward the language movement as well as they can. That was part of their plan. Our Irish teachers attend those courses and introduce drama into their classes afterwards in the winter time.

341. Would you consider changing the name of that Vote from Technical Instruction to, say, Vocational Instruction or something like that?—It is both. Of course, you might call it technical and vocational.

342. It looks a bit odd to find drama included under Technical Instruction?— I suppose drama has a technique too.

VOTE 49—SCIENCE AND ART.

Micheál Breathnach further examined.

343. Chairman.—Paragraph 48 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads as follows:—

“Subhead A.7—Survey and Reproduction of Irish Historical Records in Foreign Collections (Grant-in-Aid).

As will be seen from the Statement of Expenditure, etc., out of Grants-in-Aid appended to the account the receipts exceed the amount transferred from the subhead by £296 8s. 7d. The additional receipt represents the proceeds of the sale of certain equipment which had been purchased out of the Grant-in-Aid account in a prior year.”

Mr. Wann.—The item sold was a microfilm camera which was purchased in 1946 out of the Grant-in-Aid for £314 so that a very close approximation to the cost was realised on sale.

344. Chairman.—Paragraph 49 of the Report states:—

“Subhead B.15—Special Purchases of Books and Manuscripts.

This special subhead was opened with the sanction of the Department of Finance to bring to account unanticipated expenditure, which could not be met from the Grant-in-Aid provided for the National Library under subhead A.6, on the purchase of manuscripts and on periodicals, etc., the delivery of which had been in arrear for some years owing to disturbed conditions abroad.”

Mr. Wann.—I understand that it has been decided to reduce the Grant-in-Aid for the following financial year by the amount charged to this special subhead.

345. Chairman.—Not, I take it at your request, Mr. Breathnach?—Not at my request.

346. This was a sort of balance that had accrued? Did you get these things afterwards?—From 1939 to 1948 very many of the French, American, German and Italian periodicals that used to come to the National Library were stopped. Those who forwarded them put them aside for us, with the result that they all came to us in a flood in 1948. In addition, there were certain works that come out in parts and the parts were kept for us. There were really about ten years’ arrears of those parts. Certain other papers came on the market, such as the Castletown Family Papers and the Kavanagh Manuscripts. There was an undue burden on the Grant-in-Aid that particular year which will not occur again—not to the same extent at any rate unless there is another war.

347. I take it that those things that turned up are still of interest?—All these learned periodicals are of interest.

348. There was not any question then of loss?—There is no loss whatever. The periodicals are there.

VOTE 50—REFORMATORY AND INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS.

Micheál Breathnach further examined.

349. Chairman.—Regarding the note to subhead F—Building and Equipment Grants—is this school finished?—It is not completely finished yet. The structure is finished.

350. I presume that the work referred to here was completed the following year. Did they make proper progress or was the work further delayed?—They made satisfactory progress and the structure is completed except that they have yet to build a hall.

VOTE 28—DUBLIN INSTITUTE FOR ADVANCED STUDIES.

Micheál Breathnach called.

No question.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 52—LANDS.

Mr. W. F. Nally called and examined.

351. Chairman.—Paragraph 50 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads as follows:—

“Subhead I—Improvement of Estates, etc.

The expenditure during the year on the provision of necessary improvements in connection with the scheme for the transfer of allottees from the Gaeltacht to lands in County Meath, available for the relief of congestion, amounted to £439 5s. 2d. The total expenditure on the scheme since its inception in 1934-35 to 31st March, 1950, amounts to £104,071 4s. 9d.

Under the scheme for the provision of holdings in certain counties in Leinster for migrants from districts where there is acute congestion, the expenditure charged to the Vote amounts to £10,035 lls. 2d., including £2,974 lls. 4.d. expended on an extension of the scheme providing for intracounty migration introduced during the year with the approval of the Department of Finance. The total charges in respect of this migration scheme since 1937-38 amount to £150,786 7s. 4d.”

Mr. Wann.—This paragraph is for information only. The first migration under the intra-county migration scheme referred to in the paragraph took place in the spring of 1949.

352. Chairman.—Intra-county refers to transfer within a country?

Mr. Nally.—Yes.

353. Is that still being proceeded with? —It is.

354. Have you run into any special difficulties?—Well, we have met with some disappointments.

355. You have no idea of the amount of trouble you caused in East Donegal among the people who had been taking the land in conacre. By preventing the emigration of “A” you caused the emigration of “B”? However, that is policy.—We are anxious to get hold or the land where congestion exists. We can only get hold of the land if some people are moved out.

356. But in moving them you may also move other people out of the country altogether?—Yes. That happens too.

Deputy J. J. Collins.—What is the actual position in regard to this intracounty migration scheme? Does it mean that there were people in congested areas in East Donegal and that the people who were displaced there were people who had lands set?

357. Deputy W. Davin.—Could you say whether any of the allottees transferred from the Gaeltacht to lands in the County Meath were evicted under the 1946 Act?

Chairman.—Evicted?

Deputy Davin.—Could you say whether all the allottees transferred from the Gaeltacht to the County Meath are still in possession of the land given to them?— Eight of the original migrants surrendered their holdings and returned home. The holdings they left were reallotted to the sons of other Gaeltacht migrants in County Meath.

To the sons of the original allottees?—

Deputy J. J. Collins.—They returned to the old homestead.

358. Chairman.—Where a thing like that happens would they have an old homestead to which to return? Surely the lands they vacated in the Gaeltacht would be reallotted when they moved?— These people went back. They left us and returned for the time being to where they came from.

359. Deputy Davin.—Was there any additional expenditure involved in paying their passage back?—No.

360. Chairman.—Let us return to the Vote proper on page 172. On subhead C —Incidental Expenses—the note thereon referring to the filing cabinet reminds me of the excuse of the handle coming off the cup. It seems to be a very vicious type of cabinet to have. On subhead E —Solicitor’s Branch—Incidental Expenses, I suppose this subhead reflects greater activity on the part of the Land Commission?—It does because the Solicitor’s Branch deal largely with the legal aspects of the resumption of land. Compared with the position in previous years there has been greater activity there.

361. Deputy Davin.—On subhead I— Improvement of Estates, etc.—what is the real reason, generally speaking, for the over-estimation in that particular case?

Chairman.—The saving is due to a shortage of labour as explained in the notes on page 174.

362. Deputy Davin.—Could not sufficient men be got to go on with the work?

Chairman.—Deputy Davin was wondering what you mean by “shortage of labour”?

Mr. Nally.—It is not always possible to get sufficient labour in some areas where the Land Commission have planned to build roads or houses or to carry out land improvements. This is particularly the case where there happens to be turf in the same county.

363. Deputy Davin.—Would that be due to the fact that other industrial concerns, such as the Turf Development Board, are paying a much higher rate of wages?—It may be. I do not know.

364. Deputy Mrs. Crowley.—Is it not possible to do the work in the winter time when the turf cutting is finished? —We would endeavour to do the work at any time but our inspectors could not get labour. The same thing has happened in the forestry areas where the work is mainly done during the winter.

365. Deputy Davin.—Could you indicate the areas mainly concerned with the shortage of labour?

Chairman.—Were there any particular areas or was it a general thing?—Small amounts here and there. I am aware that there is similar trouble with regard to the Forestry Section in the County Wicklow and in some parts of County Dublin.

366. Deputy Davin.—This would hardly apply to the Gaeltacht where you had a registered unemployment list of about 30,000?—Our work is done in remote areas. It is hard to get workers and we have no arrangements to bring workers to these places.

367. Deputy J. J. Collins.—£71,455 6s. 9d. is a very large amount to leave unexpended?—Yes, it is a large amount.

368. Chairman.—It is about 20 per cent. of the grant?—Of course, there were other minor causes. A shortage of labour was the main cause but it did happen in that year that it was hard to get supplies as well. You might estimate for building houses and then you could not get concrete or iron pipes or fireplaces. In that year a shortage of supplies as well as a shortage of labour affected the work.

369. Deputy Davin.—It may be unfair to ask—I would not like to put an unfair question but what percentage of the unexpended amount, £71,000, is due to the labour shortage?—I will find that out and let the Committee know. I have not any statement here.*

I appreciate the fact that it may be unfair. It is a serious item. It is an improvement in my education to know that there is an acute shortage of labour.

Chairman.—Would you like to know?

Deputy Davin.—At the convenience of the accounting officer.

370. Deputy J. J. Collins.—There was a shortage of building materials in that particular year. That was the position, but still it is important to know in what particular areas you had the shortage?— May I say that when we speak of labour in connection with improvement works carried out by the Land Commission we do not use the word in the usual sense in which it is referred to elsewhere. The labour mostly employed is drawn from small farmers and their sons or people actually living on the estate that is being rearranged or improved. It is casual.

371. Deputy Davin.—Some of the contractors come from outside and bring their mobile forces with them?—They do.

372. They go from place to place as Land Commission contractors and bring a big percentage of their workers with them?—Yes. But there is a lot of other work besides the building of houses—the building of roads and bridges, etc.

373. Chairman.—A good deal of fencing work?—Yes.

374. Deputy Davin.—Do you ever look for men through the labour exchange for work of this kind?—We do.

The reason I ask that is that my experience is that they are taken through other channels. If a high proportion of this big amount which is unexpended is due to the shortage of labour it is a peculiar thing that you could have registered unemployed in the area exchange. The labour exchange in my area has a fair share of men registered.

375. Chairman.—In Mr. Nally’s note you will find that. With regard to subhead J—Advance to meet Deficiency of Income from Untenanted Lands purchased under the Land Acts, 1923-46—no payment was necessary because there was a surplus in the transactions, I gather? —That is right. The Vote is only a nominal Vote.

376. Could you give us some idea of the acreage involved, just roughly?—Yes. That subhead refers to lands in the hands of the Land Commission, vested in the Land Commission but not yet allotted. The total acreage is very big, about 70,000 or 80,000 acres but all of that land is not capable of being allotted because a lot of it is mountain, waste and barren. The acreage with which we would be immediately concerned and which we would have had under current investigation is not less than 25,000 acres.

377. Are the receipts under subhead J receipts for conacre lettings pending allotment?—Yes.

378. What are the payments?—We would have to pay caretakers, herds, people to look after the land and the grazing stock.

379. Does it include annuities on those lands?—No annuities are payable when the Land Commission have the lands on their hands and have not yet resold them.

380. You do not charge that?—No.

381. Does it include local rates?—It would.

382. I take it that subhead L.2—Loss on Unoccupied Holdings sold for State Forestry Purposes—is a correction for the purpose of the Land Commission accounts and that they bought land and sold it to the forestry division at a loss? —If the Land Commission are in difficulties with an unoccupied holding, as they call it, on their hands which nobody is willing to buy and from which they are getting no return, they ask the forestry division to take it over. We have authority from Finance, and by this Vote, to sell at a loss to the forestry division. We regard it as better to put the land to some use than to let it remain derelict.

383. Deputy Davin.—An item in the Appropriations in Aid on page 177 refers to the repayment of advances and to the Local Loans Fund—expenses of management. We find that every week.

Chairman.—It has been a bit of a problem to the Committee that the Local Loans Fund seems to be milked by several Departments?—Our function is to collect annuities under the 1881 and 1891 Land Acts on behalf of the Board of Works. We collect them for the Board of Works who put them to the credit of the Local Loans Fund. The financial basis of these Acts is on a different footing from that of the Acts that followed. The advances were made by the Commissioners of Public Works.

384. Deputy Davin.—Have you a separate collection branch for that?—The collection branch is organised on a county basis. The county sections deal with any matter arising within their respective counties.

385. How is the figure £3,000 arrived at?—The amount collected is shown in the accounts of the Land Commission.

386. They are all round figures?— £107,404 was collected in the year 1949-50. The total amount collectible was £117,642. The Land Commission are able to make a fair estimate of what it costs to collect that amount having regard to the number of staff they have to employ and the number of hours that staff have to work.

387. Is it fixed on a percentage basis of the amount collected?—It is fixed on an estimate of the cost of the staff involved.

388. Chairman.—It seems a reasonable enough amount. In the list of losses I see one described as the destruction of an acre of barley, the amount paid being 11 guineas which represents damages, costs and valuer’s fees. It does not appear to be a very valuable acre of barley if 11 guineas is paid not alone for the acre of barley but for all the fees. Perhaps “destruction” was rather a heavy word to use in the circumstances?—I remember that case. We got out of it as cheaply as we could.

You were lucky probably that it was in County Galway. You would not get away with that in County Donegal or indeed in County Cork.

VOTE 53—FORESTRY.

Mr. W. F. Nally further examined.

389. Chairman.—The note on subhead C.2—Cultural Operations, Maintenance, etc.—states that there was a further saving by repairs to buildings having been done by direct labour instead of by contract. How are you sure that there was in fact a saving?—Because we asked for tenders for the jobs and thought the tenders too high. We did the jobs ourselves and found it was cheaper than if we did enter into contracts.

390. Deputy Davin.—I suppose that in some of these cases the contractors are looking for a higher figure?—Buildings which the forestry division have to look after are not popular with builders at all because they are in very remote places like the sides of mountains. It is very seldom that a forest is near a town. There are only a couple of instances in the country.

391. Deputy Mrs. Crowley.—On subhead E.1—Forestry Education—what was the reason why this course was abandoned? Were there not enough applicants?—It was considered that they were more necessary in the early days of the forestry service. We had not so many trained foresters and we felt that they should have the advantage of being brought to headquarters and being spoken to by university graduates and people educated in the higher lines of forestry. That is one reason. Another reason is pressure of work during recent years. There has been more work than the technical staff are able to cope with conveniently so it would be undesirable to disturb them. I would say that the Department intend to restore those instruction courses when it is convenient to do it but we have been suffering from pressure of work during the past few years with regard to forestry development. We hope to improve that position when we get a new forestry school. Avondale is too small a place for our purpose and we hope to have a bigger number of trainees and foresters available. We find it takes three years to train a person as a forester and you cannot do it in less.

392. Chairman.—On subhead F.2— Membership Contribution to the Imperial Forestry Bureau—what decision was come to about the payments?—To pay the contribution.

VOTE 54—GAELTACHT SERVICES.

Mr. W. F. Nally further examined.

393. Chairman.—Paragraph 51 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General is of an informatory character and states:

“Subhead B.3—Grants under the Housing (Gaeltacht) Acts, 1929 to 1949.

The aggregate amount of the grants and loans which may be made under the Housing (Gaeltacht) Acts, 1929 to 1949 is not to exceed £900,000.

At 31st March, 1950, the position regarding such grants and loans was as follows:—

394. Chairman.—Paragraph 52 of the Report reads as follows:—

“Industrial Loans.

I have been furnished with a schedule concerning the industrial loans from which it appears that there were no advances made during the year ended 31st March, 1950. Arrears, including interest accrued, due at that date, amounted to £10,998 9s. 2d., as compared with £10,878 5s. 9d. on 31st March, 1949. Included in the arrears is a sum of £10,943 10s. 2d., due by a company which ceased to exist in 1925. As stated in previous reports, the realisation of such security as is held by the State was the subject of negotiations, but owing to certain legal difficulties realisation cannot be effected.”

Mr. Wann.—I understand that is still the position.

395. Chairman.—Have you considered writing this off completely instead of having it crop up as a hardy annual, if there is no hope of realising it?

Mr. Nally.—We expect to get a few hundred pounds for the property if we are able to put it on the market. We can hardly write it off if we are not authorised to sell it.

396. There is something doubtful about the title I understand?—The property belonged to the British State before there was a change of Government and any property in that position must remain in the hands of our State until a new State Lands Bill is passed by the Dáil.

397. You cannot sell it until then?—No, until that Bill becomes law, nor can we sell any property that was handed over by the British Government. That is one of the conditions of the transfer under the Treaty of 1921.

398. Turning to the details of the Vote itself, does the explanation of the excess of subhead C—Incidental Expenses—mean that the Land Commission did not think you were playing fair over the apporttionment of the telephone expenses?— There is more than that in it. The additional expenditure is due to the fact that there was a change of headquarters. At the time the expenditure was at the lesser figure, the Gaeltacht Services occupied portion of the block of buildings in Upper Merrion Street. When it reached the higher figure, they were in a separate building in Westland Row and they had to have a telephone exchange of their own. Before the transfer they were accommodated on a common switch and by a common group of telephonists at headquarters in Merrion Street.

399. Deputy Mrs. Crowley.—In regard to subhead D.10—Homespuns—has the market for homespuns improved at all?— The position in regard to the disposal of the stock of homespuns has improved very much and they have been all practically realised now but we are not buying homespuns at the moment. We want to clear off definitely everything left on our hands over the past few years.

400. Deputy Davern.—In regard to subhead D.12—Leaden Models Industry— may I ask was there much unemployment created by the discontinuance of the industry?—It was discontinued at the end of August, 1949, because the market for the products of the factory entirely dried up. A market had existed in America only and the American public ceased to buy the products of the factory and left a considerable quantity on the hands of the Gaeltacht Services division. The quantity left over is gradually being reduced. We may be able to get rid of it all eventually but the demand for toy soldiers simply died out and we could not revive it.

Chairman.—You may strike a sellers’ market yet.

401. Deputy Davern.—We are allowing imports of leaden toy soldiers and horsemen from other countries?—I do not know that.

402. I am afraid we are. It appears so to me anyhow. The country seems to be importing all sorts of soldiers, horsemen, Indians, etc. What happened to the employees of that industry?—As many of them as could be absorbed were switched over to the making of other toys and the making of material for the other toys that are being manufactured.

403. I wonder what percentage was taken over approximately?—The information I have is that the number was greatly reduced. I cannot give you the figures.

404. Would it be possible to get a note on that? It seems rather important in view of my information that such models are being allowed into the country.

Chairman.—You want information about the number of unemployed?

Deputy Davern.—Yes, in consequence of the discontinuance of the industry.

Chairman.—Will you let us have that, Mr. Nally, at your convenience?

Mr. Nally.—I shall, with pleasure.*

405. Deputy J. J. Collins.—Did that particular factory specialise in one particular line of toys?—They specialised in the manufacture of leaden toys. They started in 1946 in association with an American firm who gave promises and undertakings that there was a tremendous market for their output in America. The American firm undertook to purchase a minimum of £20,000 worth every year but that minimum figure was never reached. The firm was never able to dispose of £20,000 worth because American conditions did not react in the way that was anticipated.

406. There was no possibility of selling in the home market?—None whatever.

407. That is surprising at least to those of us who visit Rineanna and who see souvenirs and other stuff being sold to the extent of thousands of pounds worth, stuff which was made in Japan?—-We did everything we possibly could to dispose of them. At the end of the year on the 31st March we had only £1,400 on hands. At one time we had many thousands pounds worth on hands. On the other hand, the toy industry as a whole is going ahead and we find it is much easier to give constant and steady employment in making the toys rather than in making the speciality such as these toys were.

408. Deputy Brady.—In regard to subhead E.3—Kelp and Seaweeds—the explanation states that searods were not obtainable to the extent anticipated, with consequent savings on purchases, transport and other expenses. Have we got a market, I wonder?—We have a good market for searods.

409. The position still remains that you cannot get the quantities anticipated?— The position this year is the same as it was. We have a market for all the searods we can get.

410. Deputy Gilbride.—You were not able to fill the market?—That is right.

411. Deputy Palmer.—Where are they obtained principally?—Along the whole western seaboard.

412. Deputy Brady.—I was given to understand that we could get them if we had a market for them. It is the local people, I take it, who collect these rods? —Yes.

413. Chairman.—With regard to the Appropriations in Aid, it is not very clear why a Supplementary Estimate was introduced. We find that the surplus is very much greater than the Supplementary Estimate. The surplus is £51,000 and the Supplementary Estimate was £15,000. I think the Supplementary Estimate was taken very early?—It was taken early before one could reliably forecast what was likely to happen. It was taken in anticipation and before we were really in a position to know what was going to happen. We did not know until the season was well advanced that our surplus would be so large.

414. Of course, at the time of the introduction of the Supplementary Estimate you could not foresee a great deficit in the Appropriations in Aid and possibly it was just as well?—You could not foresee it.

The witness withdrew.

The Committee adjourned.

* See Appendix VII.

* See Appendix VIII.