Committee Reports > List of Committees > Dáil > 1951 > Committee of Public Accounts > Report - Appropriation Accounts 1948 - 1949

MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTN

(Minutes of Evidence)

Déardaoin, 22ú Feabhra, 1951.

Thursday, 22nd February, 1951.

The Committee sat at 11 a.m.

Mr. W. E. Wann (An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste), Mr. J. Mooney and Mr. M. Breathnach (An Roinn Airgeadais) called and examined.

VOTE 41—LOCAL GOVERNMENT.

Mr. J. Garvin called and examined.

732. Chairman.—Paragraph 36 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General reads as follows:—

“Subhead I.1—Contributions towards Loan Charges under the Housing (Financial and Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1932.

In addition to the expenditure of £600,400 9s. 5d. charged to this subhead, grants totalling £884,851 towards the cost of housing schemes were made to 37 local authorities out of moneys provided from the Transition Development Fund.”

Mr. Wann.—That paragraph brings together payments made to local authorities from the subhead and from the Transition Development Fund towards the cost of housing schemes.

733. Is the account of the fund published in the Appropriation Account?— No. It is audited and presented, but is not published with the Appropriation Accounts.

It has been presented for this year?— For 1948-49, yes.

734. Have you the same basis of allocation throughout, Mr. Garvin?

Mr. Garvin.—It is the same basis, but the amount of the Transition Development Fund grant in the case of the urban or serviced houses is fixed at £400. In respect of unserviced labourers’ cottages it is £300. In other respects the grant is applied in reduction of the capital cost on the same conditions all through.

735. Deputy Sheldon.—No upper limit is fixed in respect of any local authority? —No upper limit is fixed so far as qualifying for the Transition Development Fund grant is concerned, but in the allocation of the grant we have regard, of course, to the economics of the scheme. It is one of the media by which we exercise control of tenders and which enable us to turn down tenders if they are too expensive.

736. Chairman.—Paragraph 37 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General reads:—

“Subhead l.2—Grants under the Housing (Financial and Miscellaneous Provisions) Acts, 1932 to 1948.

“Subhead l.3—Grants under the Housing (Amendment) Act, 1948.

As stated in the account, it was anticipated that the Housing (Amendment) Act, which was before the Oireachtas when the Estimate for 1948-49 was prepared, would have become law before the end of 1947, and 1947 was, accordingly, inserted in the citation of the Housing Acts in Parts II and III of the Estimate under subheads I.2 and I.3 The Act did not, however, become law until 13th January, 1948.

Section 16 (3) of the Housing (Amendment) Act, 1948, adopted a provision contained in Section 5 (3) of the Housing (Financial and Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1932, prohibiting the making of a grant in respect of the reconstruction of a house unless the suitability of the dwelling for reconstruction had been certified before the work was commenced. In the course of the test examination of these grants cases were observed in which this condition did not appear to have been complied with, and in reply to my inquiry I have been informed that the departmental practice has been not to apply the terms of the sub-section rigidly but to maintain adequate administrative safeguards to ensure that grants are paid only in respect of appropriate reconstruction work, and that an amendment of the sub-section is being included in legislation which it is proposed to introduce in 1950.”

Mr. Wann.—The amending legislation referred to in the last sentence has been enacted. It provides that a certificate regarding suitability of a house for reconstruction may be given, notwithstanding that reconstruction has already begun or has been completed.

737. Does that cover all the cases previous to the Act?

Mr. Garvin.—I think so. No case has been brought to my notice since.

738. What, in net terms, was the departmental practice?—The practice varied somewhat from 1932 on. In 1932, when the difficulty was first experienced after the passing of the Housing (Financial and Miscellaneous Provisions) Act of that year, the practice was to give a grant modified to cover the value of reconstruction work carried out after the inspector had, in fact, inspected the building. Subsequently, as work on this kind of private grant increased, it was found that it would be inequitable to turn an applicant down in respect of work he had carried out before the inspector, owing to the multiplicity of his duties, managed to reach the house in question, and then it was based upon painstaking assessment of what did constitute new work of reconstruction and whether it was well carried out. There were successive enactments which, to a certain extent, rendered the prohibition in the Act of 1932 nugatory, because they contained retrospective provisions about the payment of grants and that was, more or less, the position up to recently. Now, under Section 12 of the 1950 Act, the inspector has a discretion to assess the value of the reconstruction work, even if he had not seen it before it was commenced.

739. Does he get details of the actual expenditure?—Yes.

Including the supply of materials?— Yes.

740. Has the applicant to certify?—He would have the bills from his local supplier, but in most cases the inspector does manage to get to the site before any substantial amount of work is undertaken and, in fact, it is the custom in, I should think, 90 per cent. of the cases for the inspector to advise the applicant as to the plan and nature of the work he is to undertake. Section 12 of the 1950 Act is really intended to cover very exceptional cases, such as where a storm had blown the roof off a house and the work had to be undertaken forthwith.

741. Chairman.—Paragraph 38 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General reads:—

“Motor Tax Account.

A test examination has been applied to the Motor Tax Account with generally satisfactory results. The certificates and reports of the Local Government Auditors who examine the motor tax transactions of local authorities were scrutinised, in so far as they were available, but in nine cases this audit had not been completed at the date of my test examination.

The gross proceeds of motor vehicles, etc., duties in 1948-49, including £32,412 2s. l0d. attributable to fines collected by the Department of Justice, amounted to £2,390,203 9s. 9d., as compared with a total of £2,004,197 12s. 2d. in the previous year. Fees amounting to £6,257 10s. 6d. received on behalf of the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána under the Road Traffic Act (Parts VI and VII) (Fees) Regulations, 1937 (Statutory Rules and Orders, No. 92 of 1937) are also included in the receipts. A statement of the gross and net receipts of the Motor Tax Account, and of the payments thereout to the Exchequer, appears on pages 6 and 7 of the Finance Accounts, 1948-49.”

Mr. Wann.—That position is normal. There were nine cases in which the audit had not been completed at the time of the test examination.

742. This was part of the general audit of the local authorities’ accounts?

Mr. Garvin.—Yes.

743. How does the matter stand?—The audits are fairly well up to date now. A great improvement was attained in the immediately preceding years and maintained in 1948-49, the year under consideration. Previous to that, there were far more arrears than there have been in recent years.

744. The accounts are available for inspection?—Yes; every audited account is available to any member of the public.

745. Are they available for purchase?— They are, in the local areas.

746. The note gives some particulars of the fines collected by the Department of Justice and the figures appear on pages 6 and 7 of the Finance Accounts. The balance outstanding at 31st March, 1948, is shown as £104,429 4s. 7d.; gross receipts, £2,390,203 9s. 9d.; drawbacks repayments and allowances, £750 12s. 0d. giving net receipts of £2,389,452 17s. 9d. The total net receipts and balance forward amount to £2,493,882 2s. 4d.; payments into Exchequer, £2,389,000, and balance outstanding at 31st March, 1949, £104,882 2s. 4d.

747. Chairman.—With regard to subhead A—Salaries, Wages and Allowances —could you tell us what the saving was and the increase in remuneration which was set against it?—The saving was mainly due to non-filling of vacancies and resignations. I have particulars of the vacancies which were not filled and the resignations and retirements. There was a set-off in respect of increased pay which. was not estimated for. The gross saving on the original Estimate amounted to £6,090 and the set-off in respect of increased pay not estimated for was approximately £4,150, so that the net saving was about £1,940.

748. As regards subhead B—Travelling Expenses—was there a Supplementary Estimate for this?—No; it was met by savings on other subheads.

749. Deputy Sheldon.—In connection with subhead E—Expenses in connection with International and other Congresses —does the note mean that other international conferences in addition to the two specifically mentioned in the Estimate were attended?—Yes. There was an attendance at a Housing Panel Conference at Geneva set up by the Economic Commission for Europe under U.N.O. in May, 1948, and an attendance at a Public Health Municipal and Engineering Congress and Exhibition in London in 1948. These were additional to what the Estimate originally provided for and had not been foreseen.

750. Chairman.—How do you provide for people who come here to get information about your activities?—They generally come to us through the Department of External Affairs. If their visit is in connection with housing, we arrange that a State representative—the Minister or somebody on his behalf-accompany them to some of the more important centres. In other cases, inspectors of the Department in the various districts accompany them and also introduce them to the county manager or housing director in the appropriate areas.

751. You make arrangements as these matters arise?—Yes. If there is a question of entertaining distinguished visitors, it would fall on the Vote of the Department of External Affairs.

752. Deputy Sheldon.—On subhead F.F. —Expenses of Committee on Road-Surfacing in relation to horse-drawn Traffic —has this committee reported?—I am glad to say it has.

753. Where is the expense borne. Is it half by a charge to the subhead and half from the Road Fund? I see in the Appropriations in Aid that there is a recoupment from the Road Fund which is the same amount as the amount in this subhead? Was that the way it was worked? —Yes, the latter was decided at the time.

754. Chairman.—On subhead G— —Charge under Irish Land Act, 1909, Section 11 (2) (Grant-in-Aid)—that was very close estimation?—It was a statutory charge.

755. On subhead I.4—Grants to Local Authorities under the Housing (Amendment) Act, 1946—is there any inconsistency between the notes in I.2 and I.4 In one case it is the number of applications; it is a different matter, I suppose?—Yes. I.4 relates to the extra room, hut or chalet which may be provided where a member of a family is suffering from tuberculosis. It was, as the note indicates, provided for by statute but that particular provision did not prove very popular with the people concerned for a number of years. Some optimism existed as regards the extent to which it would be availed of, but that expectation was not realised to any extent. In more recent Estimates we have cut down the provision to bring it more in accord with the actual demands on the subhead.

756. What number of cases would that represent, roughly?—The provision would represent about 300.

757. Do you pay the full cost?—Yes. The local authority pays it in the first instance and seeks recoupment from the Department. Two-thirds of the approved expenditure is recouped, subject to a maximum of £100.

758. I suppose that since they have to be provided for in the sanatoria and are fed and so on they prefer to go there?— Yes. I understand there has been a psychological objection in the sense that the provision and existence of these huts and chalets is thought to draw attention to the existence of a case of disease in the particular household. Possibly people are getting over that objection, but the rapid progress of the housing programme generally would in many cases obviate this particular type of provision.

759. How many rooms have you normally in these houses you are building in Dublin under the Working Class Housing Schemes?—There are three bedrooms.

760. Deputy Kitt.—There was only nine of those extra rooms or chalets built altogether in that year?—Some 80 in all.

761. In what part of the country were they built?—They were fairly well divided between urban and rural areas. There was a number of claims from rural areas. I have not the details of the distribution at the moment, but I am aware that it was not confined to urban areas.

762. Deputy Mrs. Crowley.—On subhead I.5—Competitions for Designs for Housing Schemes—have these competitions been held now?—I am afraid there is still considerable difficulty in dealing with that. The Committee concerned have experienced great difficulty in agreeing amongst themselves regarding the terms of the competitions. In one case, where the site was agreed, owing to the progress of the general housing programme in Dublin where the site was located, the site has been withdrawn by the Corporation.

763. Chairman.—Does this provision continue?—The Minister has decided that for the coming financial year he will ask the Dáil to agree to the continuance of the provision, but that its further continuance should be seriously considered at the end of 1951-52 if no better progress has been made.

764. When you speak of designs for housing schemes, does that envisage fitting them into the general planning arrangements or is it dealing simply with the house as such?—The intention is to have three sites selected, one city site, one urban site down the country and one rural site; that the competition advertisements should seek competitive designs for a scheme of houses which would fit into the general design of housing development in the area; in the rural area it should harmonise with the landscape, and in the small town it should be in keeping with the particular type of housing there; the internal fittings and general designs should be such as to provide the maximum amenities for the household and the housewife; and in appearance and general design it should represent a model which could be followed by local authorities themselves in planning similar schemes.

765. When designs are submitted by the corporation do you get your officers to scrutinise them from that point of view or are the corporation the final authority in the matter?—In this particular competition it is intended that the committee dealing with the designs should assess the plans when submitted. Their design is intended to be entirely distinct from corporation work, and the architects and others who would be eligible to compete in the competition would have their designs assessed by the members of the committee.

766. I mean, at the present time?—At the present time, in the normal submission of plans for housing schemes, the plans are examined in the Department of Local Government with reference to the amount of accommodation provided, the estimated cost, the general planning aspects, the cost of development and the various amenities which would be provided in the houses.

767. As far as the carrying out of the Town Planning Act is concerned, is that a function of the Corporation or do you come into it?—It is a function of the Corporation to be satisfied that both private and public developments conform with planning requirements and that all such schemes are so sited as to conform with the general lay-out which the town plan will eventually follow; but the Minister for Local Government comes in on appeals. Appeals are generally made by private persons against whom prohibitions are served in pursuance of the local authority’s power of interim control. The Department also examines a local authority’s own proposals to see if they conform with specific town planning requirements.

768. Deputy Sheldon.—I suppose the actual house plans for all local authority houses are submitted and passed by the Department?—Yes.

769. Some extraordinary results are produced. I am just wondering whether the control is really effective?—The plans are dictated by a number of considerations. One very important consideration, of course, is economy; another is the location of the site; and sometimes the local authority cannot pick or choose and must build on a site which is not ideal. It may be too narrow and stretched out, owing to the fact that you cannot get more land for better internal development. It may also be expensive in the matter of development costs. If they have to secure economy in such a case, they may try to secure it in the plan of the house. There is a wide diversity of plans, but I am quite satisfied that, on the whole, in the last four or five years the tendency has been towards the improvement of house plans—not necessarily towards the provision of greater accommodation but towards taking better advantage of the actual floor space provided.

I have seen cases in my own county where the fire places were put in the most extraordinary positions. I wonder that it was passed by anybody.

770. Chairman.—Have you any women architects or do they come into this picture at all?—I do not think we have any women architects on the staff at the moment, but we have a lady on the Housing Designs Committee. She represents what we may call the housewife’s point of view and she is intended to see that the plans for domestic and internal arrangements conform with the best standards that can be provided.

771. On subhead K.—Grants to An Chomhairle Leabharlanna under the Public Libraries Act, 1947—why is this only a token vote?—The Act was passed at the end of 1947 and the administration of it had only begun to come into operation in 1948-49. The corresponding provision would now be about £2,500.

772. Deputy Mrs. Crowley.—Regarding the details of subhead L.—Appropriations in Aid—on page 134, No. 2 regarding costs payable by local authorities in relation to inquiries, does that include inquiries under compulsory purchase Orders? —Yes.

773. Deputy Sheldon.—I presume that the note under No. 6.—Salary of officer acting as Secretary to the Civil Service Clerical Association—means the new secretary will be from some other Department? It does not mean that the Civil Service Association ceased to have a secretary?—That refers to the case of an officer who at the time this Estimate was prepared was acting as secretary to the Civil Service Clerical Association. He was subsequently recalled to the Department of Local Government, so that the amount realised as an Appropriation in Aid was less than had been estimated.

It does not mean that the Association came to an end?—No.

774. Chairman.—The arrangement is that he was seconded officially while he acted as secretary?—Yes.

775. Regarding No. 2 and the note on it, it says that one inquiry was exceptionally extensive in scope. That seems to prompt a question?—I think it was the Limerick sworn inquiry.

776. What was the cost of that inquiry? —I have not the figure at the moment, but I am aware that it was exceptionally expensive, owing to the lengthy duration of the inquiry. I may be able to get the particulars in a moment.

777. The local authority pays the legal fees, the entire costs of the inquiry?— The local authority pay their own legal fees and then they are assessed for the cost of the Department inspectors who hold the inquiry. I wish to say that while the inquiry in Limerick, to which I referred was an exceptionally long one, it does not appear to be the one referred to here. The one dealt with in this Estimate was an inquiry into a proposal to raise a loan for a very extensive sewerage scheme in Dún Laoghaire to have its outfall at Dalkey. The proposal was strongly opposed by a section of the residents and very abstruse scientific evidence had to be obtained on tidal currents and on the appropriate method of dealing with the outfall into the sea, so that, owing to circumstances over which neither the inspector nor the Minister had any control, the inquiry was very protracted.

778. Has anything resulted?—The Minister decided that the technical aspects of the scheme were generally in order, but that, owing to the specific questions raised, it would be desirable that the technicians in charge of the scheme should have the advice of an outside consultant. The final planning of the scheme is, I understand, now under way.

779. The local authority has to take entire responsibility in initiating these matters. The whole drainage situation in parts of Dublin requires special investigation?—A major scheme for the City of Dublin would have to be investigated only once in a generation, as a matter of fact. The main drainage of Dublin was dealt with by 1910. Now we are coming to deal with the northern side of the city and we had an inquiry into an ambitious drainage scheme which would provide for the whole area, from Finglas to Raheny and from Raheny to Portmarnock, with its discharge on the eastern side of Howth Head. The southern district will be dealt with under this Dalkey outfall scheme. You had thus a period from 1910 to 1950, so when these are completed I should think that a further major drainage scheme would hardly arise in Dublin for possibly another 30 or 40 years.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 52—LANDS.

Mr. W. F. Nally called and examined.

780. Chairman.—Paragraph 45 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General gives details in connection with migration schemes from Gaeltacht areas to the County Meath.

Mr. Wann.—This paragraph brings up to date the expenditure on migration schemes administered by the Department.

Chairman.—The paragraph reads:—

“Subhead I—Improvement of Estates. etc.

In connection with the scheme whereby certain lands in County Meath, available for the relief of congestion, are reserved for allottees from the Gaeltacht, sums amounting to £37 7s. 10d. expended in providing necessary improvements are charged to this subhead. The total expenditure borne on the vote for Lands in connection with the scheme since its inception in 1934-35 to 31st March, 1949. amounts to £103,631 19s. 7d. In addition, expenditure amounting to £2,050 9s. 10d., which was subsequently recouped to the Land Commission by the office of Public Works was incurred on the erection of a schoolhouse.

Under the scheme for the provision of holdings in certain counties in Leinster for migrants from districts where there is acute congestion the expenditure, including the cost of general improvements (roads, drains, fences, etc.), borne on the vote during the year amounts to £72 8s. 9d. The total charges in respect of this migration scheme since 1937-38 amount to £140,750 16s. 2d. made up as follows:—

781. With regard to subhead A— Salaries, Wages and Allowances—have you any figures showing the gross saving and the amount offset in respect of the increase in rates of salaries?—The gross saving was £21,410.

But the note on page 176 suggests that the actual saving if it had not been offset by the increase in salary rates might have been more?—I have not the details of the figure for the gross saving.

You may be able to send it on.*

782. Deputy Sheldon.—With regard to the losses, the only thing I was wondering was why some losses are given in detail with an explanation on pages 177-8 whereas other losses which seem to me to be very similar are not explained until we come to the notes at the very end of the account. For instance on page 182, there is a loss incurred through a contractor’s failure to carry out a contract and that is precisely the type of loss that is given on page 178 under the “Losses” heading?— It would be more appropriate to have given it on an earlier page but at the time of the preparation of this account the matter was just cleared up and it was put in at the tail end.

783. Chairman.—I see that costs and expenses were incurred owing to an alleged erroneous reallotment of a turbary plot. That could be a fruitful source of litigation, but you are only responsible for your own proceedings and would not have responsibility in connection with turf production in general?—Yes. I might say that the losses in the Appropriation Account are exceptionally heavy on account of the fact that a lot of them deal with contracts that were entered into before the war or at the beginning of the war. During the war a lot of small contractors who usually did work for the Land Commission found themselves in difficulties owing to the curtailment of credit and supplies. The 1948-49 account clears up the outstanding cases and, for that reason, the losses are exceptionally big.

784. These were cases in which arrangements were come to and the losses were sanctioned by the Department of Finance. If the contractor had a genuine difficulty the invariable practice is to try to make it up?—That is so. In one instance if, instead of defaulting and packing up, the contractor had made his case to the Department, he possibly would have got out without defaulting.

785. Deputy Sheldon.—In regard to (10) of the Appropriations in Aid, could you say whether there are many cases where the allottees refund the free grants because they do not wish to take up their holdings?—If the allottee wishes to dispose of his holding after it has been vested in him he gets the permission of the Land Commission to sell it, provided he refunds the amount of the free grant made to him when he got the holding originally.

I know how it happens, but are there many cases?—There are not; very few.

786. Chairman.—With regard to the tolls and customs of fairs and markets held under lease, where these have been in existence—is there a likelihood that they may be continued or has it reached the stage where you have to write the tolls off? It says in the note at the foot of page 181 that you took over certain fairs and markets held under lease. The lessee failed to pay the rent due over a number of years and the Land Commission took possession. The arrears of rent amounted to £909 7s. 9d. and have been written off as irrecoverable. Can you give us any further information, Mr. Nally?—The Land Commission inherited that position from the Congested Districts Board. The Congested Districts Board had tolls and customs in respect of fairs in certain towns in the West of Ireland. The Land Commission propose to get rid of this responsibility for tolls at fairs and markets and to sell them, if they can, to anybody who wishes to buy them. However, on account of the position of the legislation, they are not able to sell them and they are waiting for the passage of a State Lands Bill by the Dáil.

One would imagine, Deputy Sheldon, that this would be a good time to buy fairs and markets. Would one not?

Deputy Sheldon.—In fairness to the Dáil, I think we ought to point out that the Dáil is awaiting the preparation of the Bill by the Department.

Mr. Nally.—Not by the Department of Lands, I think.

Deputy Sheldon.—From some Department, anyway.

Deputy Davern.—It is about time tolls were abolished.

VOTE 53—FORESTRY.

Mr. W. F. Nally further examined.

787. Deputy Sheldon.—With regard to subhead E.2—Exhibits at Shows—are these the sorts of exhibits one sees at local agricultural shows?—Yes.

788. With regard to subhead H—Appropriations in Aid-may we presume that the small sales of timber have gone up and that you would hardly say that they have collapsed?—There is no collapse.

Chairman.—The only thing to do now, when there is no other fuel available, is to go out and reap a rich harvest.

Mr. Nally.—We would not recommend that course to our Minister. We regard our limited supply of firewood as something in the nature of an iron ration.

Deputy Davern.—They are increasing the price of firewood in Dundrum.

789. Chairman.—No. 7, subhead H, relates to miscellaneous matters, including compensation for malicious injury to forest properties. How does the matter stand generally? Do you make a claim, as a rule, or was this a special case?—If we have the slightest suspicion that malicious injury might have been the cause of a fire in a forest we claim at once. The local State Solicitor has to lodge a claim.

790. With regard to the notes on page 185, can you tell us if there is any kind of special apparatus available at these forest centres for fire fighting?—The foresters have instructions on how to deal with a fire, but we have no fire engines or fire extinguishers or anything of that kind. As a matter of interest in connection with the first note, the gentleman who purchased scaffolding poles from us and who did not pay and could not be found, was afterwards discovered when a photograph of his wedding appeared in the newspapers. The money was recovered in the subsequent year.

Deputy Davern.—That does not happen round Dundrum.

VOTE 54—GAELTACHT SERVICES.

Mr. W. F. Nally further examined.

Gilbert Mac an Bháird (Stiúrthóir, Seirbhísí na Gaeltachta), also called and examined.

791. Chairman.—Paragraph 46 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General reads as follows:—

“Subhead H.3—Grants under the Housing (Gaeltacht) Acts, 1929 to 1939.

The aggregate amount of the grants and loans which may be made under the Housing (Gaeltacht) Acts was increased from £750,000 to £900,000 by Section 2 of the Housing (Gaeltacht) (Amendment) Act, 1949.

During the year the sanctions given for a number of grants and loans were cancelled as the applicants were unable or unwilling to comply with the conditions attached to them, and the position at the 31st March, 1949, was as follows:—

Have you any information about these grants and loans which were cancelled because the applicants were unable or unwilling to comply with the conditions attached to them? What was the number involved?—We have not the number but we shall furnish it if you so desire?*

One would like to know the reason for the cancellations. One would like to know whether the matter had been far advanced or whether the applicants had merely filled up a form and failed to proceed any further.

792. Deputy Kitt.—What is the maximum grant for a house in the Gaeltacht? —£285.

793. In County Galway we intend to operate the provision of the Housing Act whereby, in addition to the State grant, we can give a grant to people to build their houses. I understand that we cannot do that for people in the Gaeltacht and half of our county is a Gaeltacht area. Is that a matter for the Land Commission or for the Department of Local Government? Under the Housing Act we cannot give a grant from the county council to people in the Gaeltacht and yet we can do so in respect of people who are not in the Gaeltacht. I am referring to the additional grant from the county council to people who want to build their houses.

Chairman.—That is the new matter. I suppose you will have to put down a question about it.

Deputy Kitt.—I suppose it would be a matter for the Department of Local Government?

Chairman.—I think so.

Deputy Kitt.—What about the Land Commission?

Mr. Nally.—We can only make grants in accordance with the terms of our Act.

794. Deputy Mrs. Crowley.—Is it not the case that under the Gaeltacht Services it is very difficult for an applicant to get a grant unless the house is in a very good state of repair? Could you not relax that regulation? Under the Local Authorities Act the applicant can get a grant for the reconstruction of his house when it is in a very bad state, but under the Gaeltacht Services the house must be in very good repair before an applicant can get a grant. Have you comment to make on that matter?—I fear the Deputy’s information is not correct. We have no knowledge that any such condition is being imposed. The condition that is insisted on is that the Irish language is spoken by the family in the house in respect of which a grant is required. If that condition is fulfilled, and if, in the opinion of the surveyor and of the Minister the house requires to be and will be repaired, the Minister invariably gives the grant.

Deputy Mrs. Crowley.—My experience is that your Department is very much stricter about the condition of the house than the other Department is?—I am not aware of that, but I shall look into the matter.

795. Chairman.—What about the actual expenditure during the year in question? I take it that these are the totals up to date.

Mr. Wann.—Yes.

Mr. Nally.—The total grant was £2,057 10s.

796. Chairman.—What about the loans? —The loans are paid through the Office of Public Works. We do not receive them.

797. Who is responsible to account to us for them? Is it the Board of Works?— The Board of Works, yes.

798. The explanatory note on page 189 in regard to subhead J.—Losses—to which the Comptroller and Auditor-General refers in paragraph 47 of his Report, is as follows:—

“These losses represent compensation paid to workers in Elly Bay Toy Factory in respect of personal belongings destroyed by fire as well as a small balance of cash held at centre and also destroyed (Department of Finance minute S.29/18/38).”

Could you give the Committee any information about this matter, Mr. Nally? Could you tell us about the fire and the circumstances, briefly? Was there any culpable negligence? Was any investigation made in the matter, and if so, what was the result?—The losses occurred at Elly Bay in April, 1947. The total loss of £5,423 18s. 5d. was comprised of £4,885 8s. 7d. in respect of manufacturing materials and there was also written down as a loss £427 15s. 1d, in respect of wages paid for partly manufactured goods which had not yet been put on the market and there was £110 14s. 9d. in respect of packing materials.

799. It is not known, I suppose, how the fire originated. We are generally told in these cases that the origin of the fire is unknown.

Mr. Mac an Bháird.—I can tell you the origin of the fire. It was caused by an electric fire being left switched on. At the end of the day’s work the engine was switched off properly by the engineer in charge of the engine, but another worker, who usually assisted him, switched it on again after the engine had been switched off. He put back the fuse. The next morning the engine was started up and, of course, the fire became lighted again and it was too near some goods and they went on fire. That was the cause of the fire. There was a certain amount of negligence by a minor member of the staff, right enough, but it was decided that it was not done deliberately and the mistake he made has been excused.

800. Was the total stock of materials destroyed?—No. £7,099 13s. ld. worth of stock was saved. All the machinery was saved. Less than half the building went on fire.

801. Who would be responsible for taking charge at night there?—We have a caretaker who walks around the building at night. This fire occurred first thing in the morning, just before the workers came in.

802. In regard to the note on Subhead B—Travelling Expenses—is this work carried out specifically by accountants or is it part of a general inspection?

Mr. Nally.—It is carried out by the staff of the Accounts Branch.

803. In regard to Subhead D.2—Assistance to Convent Classes—Salaries, etc.— what is the rate of remuneration, Mr. Nally? Perhaps we will come to it again. In regard to Subhead D.3—Domestic Instruction—Salaries, etc.—I see in the following note that there is difficulty in recruiting new workers?—A temporary allowance of 10/- a week was granted in 1947 to cover additional duties at a subsidiary centre at Kilkerrin, County Galway. This was not provided for in the Estimate.

This is only a single centre?—Yes, at Kilkerrin.

804. Deputy Mrs. Crowley.—In regard to Subhead D.9—Spinning—has the home-spun industry improved? Have the markets got any better?—The market has much improved. Most of the stuff that was held over unsold has since been sold.

805. Chairman.—The Department’s principal customer that is referred to in the explanatory note on Subhead D.12— Leaden Models Industry—is an individual, I take it, Mr. Nally?—A firm in the United States.

806. How does this industry stand at present? Are the prospects better?—The leaden models industry is practically finished.

807. In regard to Subhead E.3—Kelp and Seaweeds—the collapse of demand for seaweed fronds was only temporary, I hope?—The demand for seaweed has collapsed altogether. The demand is now for searods.

Which more than counterbalances?— More than counterbalances.

808. In regard to Subhead E.4—Carrageen—is carrageen packing being discontinued, or what is the position?—It is. The industry for food carrageen has been declining for many years. It shows no sign of improving. We have left out all provision for carrageen in the Estimates for the current year.

809. Deputy Sheldon.—In regard to Subhead I.—Appropriations in Aid—the provision in the Estimate with regard to the Extra Exchequer Receipts seems odd —that £30,000 should be credited as Extra Exchequer Receipts because it would not come in in time to go towards Appropriations in Aid. That might happen any Appropriations in Aid. Is there any particular reason why this one should be singled out in this way?— It is an arrangement that has been in existence for a good while between the Gaeltacht Services Division and the Department of Finance.

810. Deputy Sheldon.—Has the Department of Finance some particular reason for treating the Appropriations in Aid in an unusual way?

Mr. Mooney.—My recollection is that some time ago, in one or two particular years, the total receipts were greater than the total expenditure. It was necessary to find some way of disposing of the difference other than by way of Appropriations in Aid, so the estimated surplus was treated as Exchequer Extra Receipts. In subsequent years there was always a doubt as to whether the total estimated receipts would actually be received. One of the conditions for treating receipts as Appropriations in Aid is that they be regular and fairly sure. To guard against uncertainty, it was arranged to continue to treat a portion of them as Exchequer Extra Receipts in case the amount estimated might not be realised. If you look at this particular account you will see that that is more or less correct, that even the amount estimated to be treated as Appropriations in Aid in 1948-49 was not nearly realised. There was a sum of £268,000 odd estimated and only £153,000 odd was realised, leaving a deficiency of approximately £115,000. Even in this case it would have been better to have increased the estimate for Exchequer Extra Receipts and reduced correspondingly that for Appropriations in Aid.

811. Deputy Sheldon.—You did not take any Exchequer Extra Receipts at all?

Mr. Mooney.—No, because the Appropriations in Aid did not come up even to the figure estimated.

812. Deputy Sheldon.—It would be a sort of scandal if the Department got more in the Appropriations in Aid than was spent—it would provide an awkward situation.

Mr. Mooney.—If you get more than you estimate you cannot use the surplus without taking a supplementary estimate, whereas if you have a deficiency you may have to have a supplementary estimate for that deficiency.

The witness withdrew.

The Committee adjourned.

* See Appendix XVIII.

* See Appendix XIX.